I don't want to start a rumor mill, so you can take this for what it is worth.
New ARI Head Coach Kliff Kingsbury loves Kyler Murray.
ARI has the #1 pick
Kyler Murray declared for the draft right after Kingsbury was named Head Coach of AZ.
Not sure Josh Rosen is a personality fit for Kingsbury. That could be me looking too deep in to things, I will admit that.
Leads me to: Can Josh Rosen be had in a trade? I am giving #6 overall if that is the case. Right now. Maybe more.
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@GrahamBarfield
No quarterback was pressured more often (37.2%), threw into a tight window more often (21.6%), or had a lower expected completion percentage (59.4%)—based on the difficulty of the throw—than Josh Rosen did in 2018.
This will certainly change under Kliff Kingsbury.
I think coming to a conclusion on Rosen just based off of that one rookie year is a mistake.
A rookie QB-- especially one that isn't a QB/WR type-- shouldn't have to deal with that horrific an offensive line.
I'm not being a dick but that phrase is overused and used incorrectly if you are going by Gettleman's definition.
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I'm just constantly surprised that football fans who have been doing this for a long time still buy into this 'scouting' rumor mill, or at least they do when it confirms their biases. A lot of bullshit gets sent around during the draft, a lot of it is nonsense. Baker Mayfield was 'too small' and a'system quarterback'. Rosen doesn't want to play football because his family is rich. Nonsense stuff.
Suit yourself. A lot of it is nonsense, and a lot of is perfectly true and valid. I share what I hear, in my case, it's not regurgitated shit off ESPN or a local rag.
It wasn't a comment specifically at you, I'm not opposed to people contributing to the site, but my preference, if we're calling into question a player's personality or character is that it should be treated responsibly. People are very quick to run with such things. At least Baker earned that with his stupid run in with the cops.
Suit yourself. A lot of it is nonsense, and a lot of is perfectly true and valid. I share what I hear, in my case, it's not regurgitated shit off ESPN or a local rag.
You know more than most here of the inside stuff. But I always wonder what "attitude" means. Is it maturity level (Jameis Winston)? Is it Jay Cutler? Is it stuff that DG and PS won't deal with? Is it so bad that despite needing Eli replaced yesterday, they could not stomach it?
On another track(not JonC), as far as those saying he needs a solid offensive line, Rosen is more mobile than Haskins, who to me looked like a plodder out there. Whatever. Rosen is far more mobile than Eli. Every QB operates better with a solid offensive line and the Giants line was far better than Arizona's and will likely be better next year as I would expect at least a new RT and probably center.
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If Rosen was in this draft he would be the consensus #1 pick. What inpressed me about Rosen last year was that he stayed healthy despite playing behind an awful offensive line.
Agreed, Rosen in this draft would be the consensus top pick. He happened to be in a very talented 2018 qb class. Yes, I would trade the number 6 overall pick for him in a minute. Alternative is likely to wait until 2020 and have to give up multiple assets to get a qb.
What do you mean he would be the consensus top pick? I am a fan of Rosen's but how can anybody say he'd be the consensus top pick. He fell to 10 last year. Take the QBs out of the equation, you had Barkley, Chubb, Nelson, Ward, and other non QBs drafted before him. If you want to say he'd be the consenus top QB then okay but saying he'd be the consenus top pick is a big difference.
Cards may not want the pick. They may want OBJ.
You are getting a QB entering Year 2. You could cut Eli and use the cap savings on the lines. You have a cost-controlled QB who was highly touted.
You still have the risk that Rosen will continue to suck, but to get the chance to take that risk at #6 - it is likely worth it.
So to be clear...
You would trade the 6th overall pick, plus a second pick, for a player who was drafted 10th last year and had a crappy season?
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In comment 14256430 Jay on the Island said:
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If Rosen was in this draft he would be the consensus #1 pick. What inpressed me about Rosen last year was that he stayed healthy despite playing behind an awful offensive line.
Agreed, Rosen in this draft would be the consensus top pick. He happened to be in a very talented 2018 qb class. Yes, I would trade the number 6 overall pick for him in a minute. Alternative is likely to wait until 2020 and have to give up multiple assets to get a qb.
What do you mean he would be the consensus top pick? I am a fan of Rosen's but how can anybody say he'd be the consensus top pick. He fell to 10 last year. Take the QBs out of the equation, you had Barkley, Chubb, Nelson, Ward, and other non QBs drafted before him. If you want to say he'd be the consenus top QB then okay but saying he'd be the consenus top pick is a big difference.
Meant to say consensus top qb. Which I think would give him a good shot at #1 overall.
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for Rosen in a heartbeat. I would probably give another pick on top of it. You would end up having come out of the 2018 draft with the best QB and best player. Totally worth it
So to be clear...
You would trade the 6th overall pick, plus a second pick, for a player who was drafted 10th last year and had a crappy season?
Let's be honest. How many ARI games did you watch in full?
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Suit yourself. A lot of it is nonsense, and a lot of is perfectly true and valid. I share what I hear, in my case, it's not regurgitated shit off ESPN or a local rag.
You know more than most here of the inside stuff. But I always wonder what "attitude" means. Is it maturity level (Jameis Winston)? Is it Jay Cutler? Is it stuff that DG and PS won't deal with? Is it so bad that despite needing Eli replaced yesterday, they could not stomach it?
On another track(not JonC), as far as those saying he needs a solid offensive line, Rosen is more mobile than Haskins, who to me looked like a plodder out there. Whatever. Rosen is far more mobile than Eli. Every QB operates better with a solid offensive line and the Giants line was far better than Arizona's and will likely be better next year as I would expect at least a new RT and probably center.
It is typically about maturity, ability and willingness to learn and commit to the work, decision making, responsibility acceptance, long term goals, sullen/negative tendencies, how they treat other people and women, perhaps more problematic social items and even violence Often times, it's average or lesser intelligence, the background of their parents and how they were raised, the neighborhood, etc. Teams work up entire psych profile and info does get passed around and discussed.
I disagree. The selection of Barkley was NOT an indictment of poor QB grades. They simply had Barkley had that much higher and didn't want to pass on a prospect that had the second ever perfect grade throughout Gettlemen's long career.
Link - ( New Window )
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In comment 14256483 JonC said:
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Suit yourself. A lot of it is nonsense, and a lot of is perfectly true and valid. I share what I hear, in my case, it's not regurgitated shit off ESPN or a local rag.
You know more than most here of the inside stuff. But I always wonder what "attitude" means. Is it maturity level (Jameis Winston)? Is it Jay Cutler? Is it stuff that DG and PS won't deal with? Is it so bad that despite needing Eli replaced yesterday, they could not stomach it?
On another track(not JonC), as far as those saying he needs a solid offensive line, Rosen is more mobile than Haskins, who to me looked like a plodder out there. Whatever. Rosen is far more mobile than Eli. Every QB operates better with a solid offensive line and the Giants line was far better than Arizona's and will likely be better next year as I would expect at least a new RT and probably center.
It is typically about maturity, ability and willingness to learn and commit to the work, decision making, responsibility acceptance, long term goals, sullen/negative tendencies, how they treat other people and women, perhaps more problematic social items and even violence Often times, it's average or lesser intelligence, the background of their parents and how they were raised, the neighborhood, etc. Teams work up entire psych profile and info does get passed around and discussed.
And, how they view and treat authority figures, such as coaches.
I wouldn't draft Murray #1.
However, traditional trends are meant to be broken. The NFL, especially on offense, has shifted towards that more and more over the years.
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Shurmur last year, what in Rosen’s play this past season, would change Shurmur’s and DG’s mind? No matter how great SB was considered to be at the time, there’s little question in this fan’s mind, if Rosen was franchise-worthy to PS and DG, they would have run to tge podium and passed on SB, imv..
I disagree. The selection of Barkley was NOT an indictment of poor QB grades. They simply had Barkley had that much higher and didn't want to pass on a prospect that had the second ever perfect grade throughout Gettlemen's long career.
Except, if you have a franchise QB you project to lead you for more than a decade, who would a HC take. I am thrilled we took SB. That said, if Eli or Luck or Peyton were available and the choice was between them or Barry Sanders, who would a HC take? To me, it’s a slam dunk franchise QB
Let's be honest. How many ARI games did you watch in full?
That is a huge problem around here. If it’s not on the ESPN highlight reel or Redzone, the likelihood of watching even a few minutes of the game, let alone a full game, is probably < 3%.
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In comment 14256483 JonC said:
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Suit yourself. A lot of it is nonsense, and a lot of is perfectly true and valid. I share what I hear, in my case, it's not regurgitated shit off ESPN or a local rag.
You know more than most here of the inside stuff. But I always wonder what "attitude" means. Is it maturity level (Jameis Winston)? Is it Jay Cutler? Is it stuff that DG and PS won't deal with? Is it so bad that despite needing Eli replaced yesterday, they could not stomach it?
On another track(not JonC), as far as those saying he needs a solid offensive line, Rosen is more mobile than Haskins, who to me looked like a plodder out there. Whatever. Rosen is far more mobile than Eli. Every QB operates better with a solid offensive line and the Giants line was far better than Arizona's and will likely be better next year as I would expect at least a new RT and probably center.
It is typically about maturity, ability and willingness to learn and commit to the work, decision making, responsibility acceptance, long term goals, sullen/negative tendencies, how they treat other people and women, perhaps more problematic social items and even violence Often times, it's average or lesser intelligence, the background of their parents and how they were raised, the neighborhood, etc. Teams work up entire psych profile and info does get passed around and discussed.
This is from an Arizona sun-sentinel article. Maybe he has matured a bit. Or been humbled
“I also told him I thought the way he handled the end of the season, the toughness and kind of keeping his mouth shut, was what you’re looking for. We can build off that.”
Rosen could have complained about a lot of things during his rookie season – from the lack of any innovation involving the playcalling, having to play behind a tattered and torn offensive line and not having enough talent among his wide receivers and tight ends.
Rosen bit his tongue and only praised the players with which he had to work. Now, however, it’s up to Cardinals President Michael Bidwill, General Manager Steve Keim and Kingsbury to rebuild the roster through their $70 million in available salary-cap space and the draft, where they’ll be picking first in every round.
Rosen/Kingsbury article - ( New Window )
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And, how they view and treat authority figures, such as coaches.
That is a huge list. Likely he fits in one or two of those categories?
So it may be a big concern or just a concern that would drop him a peg or two? It is also a matter of just what the FO is willing to deal with and if they feel he can overcome it?
Thanks
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with their top pick?
I wouldn't draft Murray #1.
However, traditional trends are meant to be broken. The NFL, especially on offense, has shifted towards that more and more over the years.
But Sy, if in fact he’s 5’9”, why would a team draft a guy like that high? You’ve got 10’ tall DL and no matter how mobile they are(which coukd be an injury waiting to happen), how does a QB that small function?
Sy may have said this earlier, but let me say this again - the Cards oline made our oline look like the Dallas oline of 1993. It was beyond incapable. Many of them should have been arrested for attempted manslaughter they way treated the QB position...
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In comment 14256537 Big Blue '56 said:
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with their top pick?
I wouldn't draft Murray #1.
However, traditional trends are meant to be broken. The NFL, especially on offense, has shifted towards that more and more over the years.
But Sy, if in fact he’s 5’9”, why would a team draft a guy like that high? You’ve got 10’ tall DL and no matter how mobile they are(which coukd be an injury waiting to happen), how does a QB that small function?
I don't disagree with you. That is a big part of my grade on him.
But there are enough offensive minds out there that are convinced they cam scheme around it. Shotgun / move him around / RPO
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with their top pick?
I wouldn't draft Murray #1.
However, traditional trends are meant to be broken. The NFL, especially on offense, has shifted towards that more and more over the years.
If this happens it might be a draft day trade. Arizona selects Bosa 1st overall and calls the Giants after pick 5 is selected, offering Rosen and their 3rd round pick for the Giants 1st round pick. I could see this.
Az would have to throw something more into the pot.....
I like him...he has a Marino attitude...
However, I doubt that Az will take a qb...
Russell Wilson dropped due to his size, and since then a guy not much larger went #1 overall. I wouldn't take Murray #1 overall, but NFL trends don't hold as much weight as they used to IMO.
Az would have to throw something more into the pot.....
I like him...he has a Marino attitude...
However, I doubt that Az will take a qb...
The two picks are not linear. Rosen this year would be the top QB in the draft. That still may not make him the 6th best player in the draft, but all things being equal, the position adds to the pick.
However if AZ said Rosen and their 3rd rnder for our #6 - DG should sprint to the podium.
I know it wouldn't work like that, but it if did, how ironic would it be?
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with their top pick?
Russell Wilson dropped due to his size, and since then a guy not much larger went #1 overall. I wouldn't take Murray #1 overall, but NFL trends don't hold as much weight as they used to IMO.
5'9 190lb vs 6'1"+ and 220 is significantly bigger. That is over 4" and almost 30 lbs....
Heisenberg : 10:23 am : link : reply
What a really interesting scenario.
Just a really interesting scenario. It provides an avenue to getting the young, cost controlled QB that teams crave. But the second part of that is if he's worth it.
That's above all our pay grades, but it sure does make for something interesting to discuss.
Well, here we are not even a year later and things are shaping up that they will have lots of interesting options both this year and next.
The Cards have a ton of holes to fill. Maybe more than us. The OL has already been described as being substantially worse than ours. So that's a hole they need to fill.
Picking Murray and trading Rosen does not allow them to fill holes (at least with a top tier player). It's basically status quo and wasting a top #1 pick...*unless* the difference between Murray and Rosen is *so* great that it makes up for not bettering themselves in other areas.
SO, the question would have to be, is Murray *that* much better so that it creates a difference between the two? Or, is there something about Rosen that lowers him enough to create that gap between the two?
If it's on Rosen, then would we want to also eschew filling our many holes so that we can make the trade. And, then we have to also decide on the relative value/ talent gap between Rosen and Haskins or even Rosen and Tua/Herbert/Fromm/etc
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I wonder if the Giants view Rosen as worth the #6 pick
Heisenberg : 10:23 am : link : reply
What a really interesting scenario.
Just a really interesting scenario. It provides an avenue to getting the young, cost controlled QB that teams crave. But the second part of that is if he's worth it.
That's above all our pay grades, but it sure does make for something interesting to discuss.
It certainly does and it will be far better than the daily Eli, Haskins, etc debates.
I know it wouldn't work like that, but it if did, how ironic would it be?
You deserve the coffee. I kinda like irony
2. they can have our first next year for Rosen straight up.
3. if we want to get crazy, they can have OBJ but in addition to Rosen we get their 1st next year and their 2nd this year, we send back next year's 2nd or 3rd to them. That's pretty close to what the Bears gave up for Mack if you count Rosen as a 1st round pick.