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The ARI Cardinals - Kyler Murray - Josh Rosen

Sy'56 : 1/9/2019 11:47 pm
I don't want to start a rumor mill, so you can take this for what it is worth.

New ARI Head Coach Kliff Kingsbury loves Kyler Murray.

ARI has the #1 pick

Kyler Murray declared for the draft right after Kingsbury was named Head Coach of AZ.

Not sure Josh Rosen is a personality fit for Kingsbury. That could be me looking too deep in to things, I will admit that.

Leads me to: Can Josh Rosen be had in a trade? I am giving #6 overall if that is the case. Right now. Maybe more.
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Saw this Tweet on Rosen  
PaulBlakeTSU : 1/10/2019 9:35 am : link
Quote:
Graham Barfield
✔
@GrahamBarfield
No quarterback was pressured more often (37.2%), threw into a tight window more often (21.6%), or had a lower expected completion percentage (59.4%)—based on the difficulty of the throw—than Josh Rosen did in 2018.

This will certainly change under Kliff Kingsbury.


I think coming to a conclusion on Rosen just based off of that one rookie year is a mistake.

A rookie QB-- especially one that isn't a QB/WR type-- shouldn't have to deal with that horrific an offensive line.
RE: Looks like AZ...  
robbieballs2003 : 1/10/2019 9:35 am : link
In comment 14256470 Dan in the Springs said:
Quote:
is in QB hell.


I'm not being a dick but that phrase is overused and used incorrectly if you are going by Gettleman's definition.
RE: RE: It doesn't  
Ten Ton Hammer : 1/10/2019 9:38 am : link
In comment 14256483 JonC said:
Quote:
In comment 14256477 Ten Ton Hammer said:


Quote:


I'm just constantly surprised that football fans who have been doing this for a long time still buy into this 'scouting' rumor mill, or at least they do when it confirms their biases. A lot of bullshit gets sent around during the draft, a lot of it is nonsense. Baker Mayfield was 'too small' and a'system quarterback'. Rosen doesn't want to play football because his family is rich. Nonsense stuff.



Suit yourself. A lot of it is nonsense, and a lot of is perfectly true and valid. I share what I hear, in my case, it's not regurgitated shit off ESPN or a local rag.


It wasn't a comment specifically at you, I'm not opposed to people contributing to the site, but my preference, if we're calling into question a player's personality or character is that it should be treated responsibly. People are very quick to run with such things. At least Baker earned that with his stupid run in with the cops.
RE: RE: It doesn't  
section125 : 1/10/2019 9:40 am : link
In comment 14256483 JonC said:
Quote:

Suit yourself. A lot of it is nonsense, and a lot of is perfectly true and valid. I share what I hear, in my case, it's not regurgitated shit off ESPN or a local rag.


You know more than most here of the inside stuff. But I always wonder what "attitude" means. Is it maturity level (Jameis Winston)? Is it Jay Cutler? Is it stuff that DG and PS won't deal with? Is it so bad that despite needing Eli replaced yesterday, they could not stomach it?

On another track(not JonC), as far as those saying he needs a solid offensive line, Rosen is more mobile than Haskins, who to me looked like a plodder out there. Whatever. Rosen is far more mobile than Eli. Every QB operates better with a solid offensive line and the Giants line was far better than Arizona's and will likely be better next year as I would expect at least a new RT and probably center.
I would give serious consideration  
Matt in SGS : 1/10/2019 9:40 am : link
to trading that #6 for Rosen. If you can go back in time 1 year and say the Giants would end up Saquon and Rosen, and it would cost the #6 overall the next year, I think everyone would jump on that.
RE: RE: Section is righr  
robbieballs2003 : 1/10/2019 9:41 am : link
In comment 14256493 lax counsel said:
Quote:
In comment 14256430 Jay on the Island said:


Quote:


If Rosen was in this draft he would be the consensus #1 pick. What inpressed me about Rosen last year was that he stayed healthy despite playing behind an awful offensive line.



Agreed, Rosen in this draft would be the consensus top pick. He happened to be in a very talented 2018 qb class. Yes, I would trade the number 6 overall pick for him in a minute. Alternative is likely to wait until 2020 and have to give up multiple assets to get a qb.


What do you mean he would be the consensus top pick? I am a fan of Rosen's but how can anybody say he'd be the consensus top pick. He fell to 10 last year. Take the QBs out of the equation, you had Barkley, Chubb, Nelson, Ward, and other non QBs drafted before him. If you want to say he'd be the consenus top QB then okay but saying he'd be the consenus top pick is a big difference.
RE: I would trade the 6th pick  
bw in dc : 1/10/2019 9:41 am : link
In comment 14256417 Jay on the Island said:
Quote:
In a heartbeat. That would be an incredible turn of events for the Giants. I wanted Darnold or Rosen last year and to get Rosen now would be a great move for the Giants.


Cards may not want the pick. They may want OBJ.
Think about..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/10/2019 9:43 am : link
a move like that - it has to be good value at #6.

You are getting a QB entering Year 2. You could cut Eli and use the cap savings on the lines. You have a cost-controlled QB who was highly touted.

You still have the risk that Rosen will continue to suck, but to get the chance to take that risk at #6 - it is likely worth it.
RE: I’d trade #6 pick  
Bramton1 : 1/10/2019 9:44 am : link
In comment 14256319 mattyblue said:
Quote:
for Rosen in a heartbeat. I would probably give another pick on top of it. You would end up having come out of the 2018 draft with the best QB and best player. Totally worth it


So to be clear...
You would trade the 6th overall pick, plus a second pick, for a player who was drafted 10th last year and had a crappy season?
RE: RE: RE: Section is righr  
lax counsel : 1/10/2019 9:45 am : link
In comment 14256518 robbieballs2003 said:
Quote:
In comment 14256493 lax counsel said:


Quote:


In comment 14256430 Jay on the Island said:


Quote:


If Rosen was in this draft he would be the consensus #1 pick. What inpressed me about Rosen last year was that he stayed healthy despite playing behind an awful offensive line.



Agreed, Rosen in this draft would be the consensus top pick. He happened to be in a very talented 2018 qb class. Yes, I would trade the number 6 overall pick for him in a minute. Alternative is likely to wait until 2020 and have to give up multiple assets to get a qb.



What do you mean he would be the consensus top pick? I am a fan of Rosen's but how can anybody say he'd be the consensus top pick. He fell to 10 last year. Take the QBs out of the equation, you had Barkley, Chubb, Nelson, Ward, and other non QBs drafted before him. If you want to say he'd be the consenus top QB then okay but saying he'd be the consenus top pick is a big difference.



Meant to say consensus top qb. Which I think would give him a good shot at #1 overall.
RE: RE: I’d trade #6 pick  
Sy'56 : 1/10/2019 9:47 am : link
In comment 14256521 Bramton1 said:
Quote:
In comment 14256319 mattyblue said:


Quote:


for Rosen in a heartbeat. I would probably give another pick on top of it. You would end up having come out of the 2018 draft with the best QB and best player. Totally worth it



So to be clear...
You would trade the 6th overall pick, plus a second pick, for a player who was drafted 10th last year and had a crappy season?


Let's be honest. How many ARI games did you watch in full?
Id trade  
TommyWiseau : 1/10/2019 9:48 am : link
The 6th overall if we got Rosen and a pick back.
Question: If Rosen wasn’t deemed a franchise-worthy guy by  
Big Blue '56 : 1/10/2019 9:50 am : link
Shurmur last year, what in Rosen’s play this past season, would change Shurmur’s and DG’s mind? No matter how great SB was considered to be at the time, there’s little question in this fan’s mind, if Rosen was franchise-worthy to PS and DG, they would have run to tge podium and passed on SB, imv..
#6 overall  
SHO'NUFF : 1/10/2019 9:51 am : link
if we get Rosen and their 3rd
RE: RE: RE: It doesn't  
JonC : 1/10/2019 9:53 am : link
In comment 14256514 section125 said:
Quote:
In comment 14256483 JonC said:


Quote:



Suit yourself. A lot of it is nonsense, and a lot of is perfectly true and valid. I share what I hear, in my case, it's not regurgitated shit off ESPN or a local rag.



You know more than most here of the inside stuff. But I always wonder what "attitude" means. Is it maturity level (Jameis Winston)? Is it Jay Cutler? Is it stuff that DG and PS won't deal with? Is it so bad that despite needing Eli replaced yesterday, they could not stomach it?

On another track(not JonC), as far as those saying he needs a solid offensive line, Rosen is more mobile than Haskins, who to me looked like a plodder out there. Whatever. Rosen is far more mobile than Eli. Every QB operates better with a solid offensive line and the Giants line was far better than Arizona's and will likely be better next year as I would expect at least a new RT and probably center.


It is typically about maturity, ability and willingness to learn and commit to the work, decision making, responsibility acceptance, long term goals, sullen/negative tendencies, how they treat other people and women, perhaps more problematic social items and even violence Often times, it's average or lesser intelligence, the background of their parents and how they were raised, the neighborhood, etc. Teams work up entire psych profile and info does get passed around and discussed.
Look  
mdthedream : 1/10/2019 9:55 am : link
if Arizona wants Murrey than they are in a spot they would have to trade Rosen and the 6th pick is more than enough because no one else will give more. Otherwise they don't draft Murrey.
And who in their right mind would draft a 5’ 9” QB  
Big Blue '56 : 1/10/2019 9:55 am : link
with their top pick?
RE: Question: If Rosen wasn’t deemed a franchise-worthy guy by  
Sy'56 : 1/10/2019 9:56 am : link
In comment 14256529 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
Shurmur last year, what in Rosen’s play this past season, would change Shurmur’s and DG’s mind? No matter how great SB was considered to be at the time, there’s little question in this fan’s mind, if Rosen was franchise-worthy to PS and DG, they would have run to tge podium and passed on SB, imv..


I disagree. The selection of Barkley was NOT an indictment of poor QB grades. They simply had Barkley had that much higher and didn't want to pass on a prospect that had the second ever perfect grade throughout Gettlemen's long career.
Schefter on this  
jeff57 : 1/10/2019 9:57 am : link
.
Link - ( New Window )
RE: RE: RE: RE: It doesn't  
JonC : 1/10/2019 9:57 am : link
In comment 14256532 JonC said:
Quote:
In comment 14256514 section125 said:


Quote:


In comment 14256483 JonC said:


Quote:



Suit yourself. A lot of it is nonsense, and a lot of is perfectly true and valid. I share what I hear, in my case, it's not regurgitated shit off ESPN or a local rag.



You know more than most here of the inside stuff. But I always wonder what "attitude" means. Is it maturity level (Jameis Winston)? Is it Jay Cutler? Is it stuff that DG and PS won't deal with? Is it so bad that despite needing Eli replaced yesterday, they could not stomach it?

On another track(not JonC), as far as those saying he needs a solid offensive line, Rosen is more mobile than Haskins, who to me looked like a plodder out there. Whatever. Rosen is far more mobile than Eli. Every QB operates better with a solid offensive line and the Giants line was far better than Arizona's and will likely be better next year as I would expect at least a new RT and probably center.



It is typically about maturity, ability and willingness to learn and commit to the work, decision making, responsibility acceptance, long term goals, sullen/negative tendencies, how they treat other people and women, perhaps more problematic social items and even violence Often times, it's average or lesser intelligence, the background of their parents and how they were raised, the neighborhood, etc. Teams work up entire psych profile and info does get passed around and discussed.


And, how they view and treat authority figures, such as coaches.
RE: And who in their right mind would draft a 5’ 9” QB  
Sy'56 : 1/10/2019 9:57 am : link
In comment 14256537 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
with their top pick?


I wouldn't draft Murray #1.

However, traditional trends are meant to be broken. The NFL, especially on offense, has shifted towards that more and more over the years.
If there were a trade for the sixth pick  
jeff57 : 1/10/2019 10:00 am : link
We should get a 3 back. After all, Rosen was taken 10th.
RE: RE: Question: If Rosen wasn’t deemed a franchise-worthy guy by  
Big Blue '56 : 1/10/2019 10:00 am : link
In comment 14256541 Sy'56 said:
Quote:
In comment 14256529 Big Blue '56 said:


Quote:


Shurmur last year, what in Rosen’s play this past season, would change Shurmur’s and DG’s mind? No matter how great SB was considered to be at the time, there’s little question in this fan’s mind, if Rosen was franchise-worthy to PS and DG, they would have run to tge podium and passed on SB, imv..



I disagree. The selection of Barkley was NOT an indictment of poor QB grades. They simply had Barkley had that much higher and didn't want to pass on a prospect that had the second ever perfect grade throughout Gettlemen's long career.


Except, if you have a franchise QB you project to lead you for more than a decade, who would a HC take. I am thrilled we took SB. That said, if Eli or Luck or Peyton were available and the choice was between them or Barry Sanders, who would a HC take? To me, it’s a slam dunk franchise QB
RE: RE: RE: I’d trade #6 pick  
bw in dc : 1/10/2019 10:01 am : link
In comment 14256525 Sy'56 said:
Quote:


Let's be honest. How many ARI games did you watch in full?


That is a huge problem around here. If it’s not on the ESPN highlight reel or Redzone, the likelihood of watching even a few minutes of the game, let alone a full game, is probably < 3%.
RE: RE: RE: RE: It doesn't  
Jarvis : 1/10/2019 10:02 am : link
In comment 14256532 JonC said:
Quote:
In comment 14256514 section125 said:


Quote:


In comment 14256483 JonC said:


Quote:



Suit yourself. A lot of it is nonsense, and a lot of is perfectly true and valid. I share what I hear, in my case, it's not regurgitated shit off ESPN or a local rag.



You know more than most here of the inside stuff. But I always wonder what "attitude" means. Is it maturity level (Jameis Winston)? Is it Jay Cutler? Is it stuff that DG and PS won't deal with? Is it so bad that despite needing Eli replaced yesterday, they could not stomach it?

On another track(not JonC), as far as those saying he needs a solid offensive line, Rosen is more mobile than Haskins, who to me looked like a plodder out there. Whatever. Rosen is far more mobile than Eli. Every QB operates better with a solid offensive line and the Giants line was far better than Arizona's and will likely be better next year as I would expect at least a new RT and probably center.



It is typically about maturity, ability and willingness to learn and commit to the work, decision making, responsibility acceptance, long term goals, sullen/negative tendencies, how they treat other people and women, perhaps more problematic social items and even violence Often times, it's average or lesser intelligence, the background of their parents and how they were raised, the neighborhood, etc. Teams work up entire psych profile and info does get passed around and discussed.


This is from an Arizona sun-sentinel article. Maybe he has matured a bit. Or been humbled

“I also told him I thought the way he handled the end of the season, the toughness and kind of keeping his mouth shut, was what you’re looking for. We can build off that.”

Rosen could have complained about a lot of things during his rookie season – from the lack of any innovation involving the playcalling, having to play behind a tattered and torn offensive line and not having enough talent among his wide receivers and tight ends.

Rosen bit his tongue and only praised the players with which he had to work. Now, however, it’s up to Cardinals President Michael Bidwill, General Manager Steve Keim and Kingsbury to rebuild the roster through their $70 million in available salary-cap space and the draft, where they’ll be picking first in every round.
Rosen/Kingsbury article - ( New Window )
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: It doesn't  
section125 : 1/10/2019 10:03 am : link
In comment 14256544 JonC said:
Quote:
In comment 14256532 JonC said:

........

And, how they view and treat authority figures, such as coaches.


That is a huge list. Likely he fits in one or two of those categories?
So it may be a big concern or just a concern that would drop him a peg or two? It is also a matter of just what the FO is willing to deal with and if they feel he can overcome it?

Thanks
RE: RE: And who in their right mind would draft a 5’ 9” QB  
Big Blue '56 : 1/10/2019 10:04 am : link
In comment 14256545 Sy'56 said:
Quote:
In comment 14256537 Big Blue '56 said:


Quote:


with their top pick?



I wouldn't draft Murray #1.

However, traditional trends are meant to be broken. The NFL, especially on offense, has shifted towards that more and more over the years.


But Sy, if in fact he’s 5’9”, why would a team draft a guy like that high? You’ve got 10’ tall DL and no matter how mobile they are(which coukd be an injury waiting to happen), how does a QB that small function?
At the end of the season...  
bw in dc : 1/10/2019 10:07 am : link
I thought there was a nice bond being formed between Rosen and fellow rookie Kirk.

Sy may have said this earlier, but let me say this again - the Cards oline made our oline look like the Dallas oline of 1993. It was beyond incapable. Many of them should have been arrested for attempted manslaughter they way treated the QB position...
RE: RE: RE: And who in their right mind would draft a 5’ 9” QB  
Sy'56 : 1/10/2019 10:07 am : link
In comment 14256555 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
In comment 14256545 Sy'56 said:


Quote:


In comment 14256537 Big Blue '56 said:


Quote:


with their top pick?



I wouldn't draft Murray #1.

However, traditional trends are meant to be broken. The NFL, especially on offense, has shifted towards that more and more over the years.



But Sy, if in fact he’s 5’9”, why would a team draft a guy like that high? You’ve got 10’ tall DL and no matter how mobile they are(which coukd be an injury waiting to happen), how does a QB that small function?


I don't disagree with you. That is a big part of my grade on him.

But there are enough offensive minds out there that are convinced they cam scheme around it. Shotgun / move him around / RPO
And he may actually be 5'8  
Sy'56 : 1/10/2019 10:08 am : link
.
Doug Flutie..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/10/2019 10:09 am : link
just stood on a soapbox and waved!!

RE: RE: And who in their right mind would draft a 5’ 9” QB  
Rjanyg : 1/10/2019 10:11 am : link
In comment 14256545 Sy'56 said:
Quote:
In comment 14256537 Big Blue '56 said:


Quote:


with their top pick?



I wouldn't draft Murray #1.

However, traditional trends are meant to be broken. The NFL, especially on offense, has shifted towards that more and more over the years.


If this happens it might be a draft day trade. Arizona selects Bosa 1st overall and calls the Giants after pick 5 is selected, offering Rosen and their 3rd round pick for the Giants 1st round pick. I could see this.
I am not giving up  
Doomster : 1/10/2019 10:14 am : link
a 6th for a guy who was drafted 10th......

Az would have to throw something more into the pot.....

I like him...he has a Marino attitude...

However, I doubt that Az will take a qb...
It's definitely worth discussing  
ghost718 : 1/10/2019 10:18 am : link
I'd rather trade Beckham and a pick,keep 6,and draft a defensive player.
A year ago  
Jay on the Island : 1/10/2019 10:19 am : link
If you told me that we could have Barkley and Rosen with the #2 pick and the 2019 top 10 pick I would have signed up for that without a 2nd thought.
RE: And who in their right mind would draft a 5’ 9” QB  
UConn4523 : 1/10/2019 10:21 am : link
In comment 14256537 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
with their top pick?


Russell Wilson dropped due to his size, and since then a guy not much larger went #1 overall. I wouldn't take Murray #1 overall, but NFL trends don't hold as much weight as they used to IMO.
Teams don't give up on a QB after one year  
Peter from NH (formerly CT) : 1/10/2019 10:23 am : link
unless they are convinced they can't get them where they want to go. Despite his arm talent, I wouldn't think about this for the 6th pick of the draft. I doubt the Giants will either. There is a lot more to playing QB in NYC in the NFL than being able to throw the ball.
I wonder if the Giants view Rosen as worth the #6 pick  
Heisenberg : 1/10/2019 10:23 am : link
What a really interesting scenario.
RE: I am not giving up  
section125 : 1/10/2019 10:24 am : link
In comment 14256567 Doomster said:
Quote:
a 6th for a guy who was drafted 10th......

Az would have to throw something more into the pot.....

I like him...he has a Marino attitude...

However, I doubt that Az will take a qb...


The two picks are not linear. Rosen this year would be the top QB in the draft. That still may not make him the 6th best player in the draft, but all things being equal, the position adds to the pick.

However if AZ said Rosen and their 3rd rnder for our #6 - DG should sprint to the podium.
It would set the stage for an awesome, 2004-like trade  
jcn56 : 1/10/2019 10:25 am : link
starting with some rumors that the Giants and Cards have discussed trading Rosen, down to 'the Giants are on the clock with the 6th overall pick', selecting Murray then trading him to Arizona for picks.

I know it wouldn't work like that, but it if did, how ironic would it be?
for Rosen, not picks damnit  
jcn56 : 1/10/2019 10:26 am : link
where's my coffee
RE: RE: And who in their right mind would draft a 5’ 9” QB  
section125 : 1/10/2019 10:27 am : link
In comment 14256572 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
In comment 14256537 Big Blue '56 said:


Quote:


with their top pick?



Russell Wilson dropped due to his size, and since then a guy not much larger went #1 overall. I wouldn't take Murray #1 overall, but NFL trends don't hold as much weight as they used to IMO.


5'9 190lb vs 6'1"+ and 220 is significantly bigger. That is over 4" and almost 30 lbs....
From a fan's perspective...  
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/10/2019 10:27 am : link
this is how I view it:

Quote:
I wonder if the Giants view Rosen as worth the #6 pick
Heisenberg : 10:23 am : link : reply
What a really interesting scenario.


Just a really interesting scenario. It provides an avenue to getting the young, cost controlled QB that teams crave. But the second part of that is if he's worth it.

That's above all our pay grades, but it sure does make for something interesting to discuss.
The Cards...  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 1/10/2019 10:28 am : link
Make us look like a fine tuned machine.
The first thing I thought of when I saw this  
Chris684 : 1/10/2019 10:31 am : link
Was all of the dopes who were lamenting the fact that the Giants were never going to have another opportunity to obtain a franchise QB and they were destined for QB hell.

Well, here we are not even a year later and things are shaping up that they will have lots of interesting options both this year and next.
RE: Teams don't give up on a QB after one year  
Bill L : 1/10/2019 10:31 am : link
In comment 14256584 Peter from NH (formerly CT) said:
Quote:
unless they are convinced they can't get them where they want to go. Despite his arm talent, I wouldn't think about this for the 6th pick of the draft. I doubt the Giants will either. There is a lot more to playing QB in NYC in the NFL than being able to throw the ball.

The Cards have a ton of holes to fill. Maybe more than us. The OL has already been described as being substantially worse than ours. So that's a hole they need to fill.

Picking Murray and trading Rosen does not allow them to fill holes (at least with a top tier player). It's basically status quo and wasting a top #1 pick...*unless* the difference between Murray and Rosen is *so* great that it makes up for not bettering themselves in other areas.

SO, the question would have to be, is Murray *that* much better so that it creates a difference between the two? Or, is there something about Rosen that lowers him enough to create that gap between the two?

If it's on Rosen, then would we want to also eschew filling our many holes so that we can make the trade. And, then we have to also decide on the relative value/ talent gap between Rosen and Haskins or even Rosen and Tua/Herbert/Fromm/etc
Mixed views of where he would be draft.  
GFAN52 : 1/10/2019 10:33 am : link
Quote:
Last month, an NFL general manager told ESPN's Adam Schefter: "I really believe he's a first-round pick, a late first, I really do."
RE: From a fan's perspective...  
Jay on the Island : 1/10/2019 10:34 am : link
In comment 14256596 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
this is how I view it:



Quote:


I wonder if the Giants view Rosen as worth the #6 pick
Heisenberg : 10:23 am : link : reply
What a really interesting scenario.



Just a really interesting scenario. It provides an avenue to getting the young, cost controlled QB that teams crave. But the second part of that is if he's worth it.

That's above all our pay grades, but it sure does make for something interesting to discuss.

It certainly does and it will be far better than the daily Eli, Haskins, etc debates.
RE: It would set the stage for an awesome, 2004-like trade  
Big Blue '56 : 1/10/2019 10:34 am : link
In comment 14256590 jcn56 said:
Quote:
starting with some rumors that the Giants and Cards have discussed trading Rosen, down to 'the Giants are on the clock with the 6th overall pick', selecting Murray then trading him to Arizona for picks.

I know it wouldn't work like that, but it if did, how ironic would it be?


You deserve the coffee. I kinda like irony
I agree that giving up the 6th pick alone is a non-starter - 3 ideas  
Eric on Li : 1/10/2019 10:35 am : link
1. they can have our 6th pick, we get Rosen, but we also get back their 2nd (33rd overall I believe). We'd likely get a top 20 guy on our board plus Rosen.

2. they can have our first next year for Rosen straight up.

3. if we want to get crazy, they can have OBJ but in addition to Rosen we get their 1st next year and their 2nd this year, we send back next year's 2nd or 3rd to them. That's pretty close to what the Bears gave up for Mack if you count Rosen as a 1st round pick.
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