I don't want to start a rumor mill, so you can take this for what it is worth.
New ARI Head Coach Kliff Kingsbury loves Kyler Murray.
ARI has the #1 pick
Kyler Murray declared for the draft right after Kingsbury was named Head Coach of AZ.
Not sure Josh Rosen is a personality fit for Kingsbury. That could be me looking too deep in to things, I will admit that.
Leads me to: Can Josh Rosen be had in a trade? I am giving #6 overall if that is the case. Right now. Maybe more.
Let someone take Haskins before us.
Bosa
Q. Williams
Josh Allen
Jonah Williams/Clein Ferrell/Devin White
Giants become very happy.
Bingo...perfect scenario...
If that's true I can't knock him for that. That OL truly was worse than what we trotted out this past season... extremely hard to believe but true. I'd have been yelling at that OL too.
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unless they are convinced they can't get them where they want to go. Despite his arm talent, I wouldn't think about this for the 6th pick of the draft. I doubt the Giants will either. There is a lot more to playing QB in NYC in the NFL than being able to throw the ball.
The Cards have a ton of holes to fill. Maybe more than us. The OL has already been described as being substantially worse than ours. So that's a hole they need to fill.
Picking Murray and trading Rosen does not allow them to fill holes (at least with a top tier player). It's basically status quo and wasting a top #1 pick...*unless* the difference between Murray and Rosen is *so* great that it makes up for not bettering themselves in other areas.
SO, the question would have to be, is Murray *that* much better so that it creates a difference between the two? Or, is there something about Rosen that lowers him enough to create that gap between the two?
If it's on Rosen, then would we want to also eschew filling our many holes so that we can make the trade. And, then we have to also decide on the relative value/ talent gap between Rosen and Haskins or even Rosen and Tua/Herbert/Fromm/etc
Fair points. My thought on Tua/Herbert/Fromm is that it is going to likely cost the Giants multiple picks to acquire one, as I do not think they will be drafting top 10 next year. So, is Rosen worth one pick, whereas Tua/Herbert/Fromm are worth 2 plus picks?
He was getting pounded behind that OL but wow can he sling the ball. That was still pretty evident. They had no blocking at all, he was getting hammered and I'm pretty sure they were dead last in rushing. The fact that he didn't get hurt in that scenario says something in my mind because the biggest knock on him was his propensity towards injury (mainly concussions). Arizona was a complete trainwreck.
GMAN4LIFE : 10:37 am : link : reply
i just want to know what you are seeing that i am not
You can look back at either Manning, Jared Goff, Darnold, Rosen, Allen, Jackson and see rookies who struggle mightily. Terrible statistics and/or W-L records.
All I say is this - if you have people who saw glimpses of greatness in Darnold, Allen and Jackson and can't say the same for Rosen, they either are really ignorant from a football aspect or they are completely biased.
All those QB's made terrible throws and had some ridiculous turnovers. All of them, with the possible exception of Jackson, had some amazing throws that showcased arm strength, accuracy and decision-making.
Saying any of them are failures or successes at this point should just have a big poster of Jared Goff giving a Johnny Cash-like middle finger over their computer.
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unless they are convinced they can't get them where they want to go. Despite his arm talent, I wouldn't think about this for the 6th pick of the draft. I doubt the Giants will either. There is a lot more to playing QB in NYC in the NFL than being able to throw the ball.
The Cards have a ton of holes to fill. Maybe more than us. The OL has already been described as being substantially worse than ours. So that's a hole they need to fill.
Picking Murray and trading Rosen does not allow them to fill holes (at least with a top tier player). It's basically status quo and wasting a top #1 pick...*unless* the difference between Murray and Rosen is *so* great that it makes up for not bettering themselves in other areas.
SO, the question would have to be, is Murray *that* much better so that it creates a difference between the two? Or, is there something about Rosen that lowers him enough to create that gap between the two?
If it's on Rosen, then would we want to also eschew filling our many holes so that we can make the trade. And, then we have to also decide on the relative value/ talent gap between Rosen and Haskins or even Rosen and Tua/Herbert/Fromm/etc
Teams want mobile QBs to help out the OL so, yes, it would help Arizona. What people seem to only want to see is Josh Allen running for TDs or Mahomes making plays outside the pocket. What fans choose to ignore are that these mobile QBs take unnecessary hits and Wilson is really the exception and not the rule. These mobile QB more often than not get injured buying time or using their legs like Wentz, RGIII, Mariota, Tannehill, Rodgers, Big Ben, Darnold, Allen, and the list goes on. It is a cool fad to talk about but games are won from making plays in the pocket. Just my two cents.
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i just want to know what you are seeing that i am not
He was getting pounded behind that OL but wow can he sling the ball. That was still pretty evident. They had no blocking at all, he was getting hammered and I'm pretty sure they were dead last in rushing. The fact that he didn't get hurt in that scenario says something in my mind because the biggest knock on him was his propensity towards injury (mainly concussions). Arizona was a complete trainwreck.
And he stood tall in the pocket. The kid has balls.
They can draft a the best player at #1 and their franchise QB at #6.
2. they can have our first next year for Rosen straight up.
3. if we want to get crazy, they can have OBJ but in addition to Rosen we get their 1st next year and their 2nd this year, we send back next year's 2nd or 3rd to them. That's pretty close to what the Bears gave up for Mack if you count Rosen as a 1st round pick.
I think a fair offer is the Giants 1st for Rosen plus swapping of 2nd round picks. The Giants would have the first pick in round 2 which is very valuable as several teams want to trade up for a player that fell out of round 1. They could move down a few spots pick up a 3rd and then grab an OL.
And the Giants have plenty of assets to make offers of all kinds to get Rosen. Their first this year or next and all the other picks they have in this draft. Cards have a lot of holes? So do the Giants, but they have a lot of picks too.
Lastly, Yes, Rosen was pretty bad last year in most games. But most QBs are in their first year, especially on teams that are lacking talent. If you don't think so, go look up Eli's first year.
It's not crazy. For me, it hinges on how real the Murray love is and if the Giants think Rosen could be the guy.
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In comment 14256584 Peter from NH (formerly CT) said:
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unless they are convinced they can't get them where they want to go. Despite his arm talent, I wouldn't think about this for the 6th pick of the draft. I doubt the Giants will either. There is a lot more to playing QB in NYC in the NFL than being able to throw the ball.
The Cards have a ton of holes to fill. Maybe more than us. The OL has already been described as being substantially worse than ours. So that's a hole they need to fill.
Picking Murray and trading Rosen does not allow them to fill holes (at least with a top tier player). It's basically status quo and wasting a top #1 pick...*unless* the difference between Murray and Rosen is *so* great that it makes up for not bettering themselves in other areas.
SO, the question would have to be, is Murray *that* much better so that it creates a difference between the two? Or, is there something about Rosen that lowers him enough to create that gap between the two?
If it's on Rosen, then would we want to also eschew filling our many holes so that we can make the trade. And, then we have to also decide on the relative value/ talent gap between Rosen and Haskins or even Rosen and Tua/Herbert/Fromm/etc
Teams want mobile QBs to help out the OL so, yes, it would help Arizona. What people seem to only want to see is Josh Allen running for TDs or Mahomes making plays outside the pocket. What fans choose to ignore are that these mobile QBs take unnecessary hits and Wilson is really the exception and not the rule. These mobile QB more often than not get injured buying time or using their legs like Wentz, RGIII, Mariota, Tannehill, Rodgers, Big Ben, Darnold, Allen, and the list goes on. It is a cool fad to talk about but games are won from making plays in the pocket. Just my two cents.
So by picking Murray, they're saying that's worth it to not build the line (or defense, depending on what they wold otherwise do with the pick)? And the equation would be more like having Murray and his mobility without a line versus Rosen with an improved line. To me, foregoing getting another top tier player raised a red flag on Rosen.
I thought the same thing after Josh McDaniels arrived in Denver. He had a very talented young QB in Cutler but he traded him as soon as he arrived.
Cutler was also more established. If Kingbury loves Murray enough he could make a change. This was obviously discussed with ownership during the interview process.
I agree that the Giants taking Barkley isn't necessarily an indictment of the other QBs. Barkley was only the second player who ever earned a perfect grade from Gettleman. The problem is that Shurmur has repeatedly said he prefers a mobile QB, and that may not be Rosen. My guess is that and the high cost of the #6 pick would be preclusive. But I admit I'd be tempted (70/30) to make that trade.
I agree. If they deem Rosen a franchise QB then they have to make this happen. How often to franchise QB's come along? We gave up a ton for Eli and took the gamble. It paid off. I'd take the gamble here too.
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In comment 14256607 Bill L said:
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In comment 14256584 Peter from NH (formerly CT) said:
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unless they are convinced they can't get them where they want to go. Despite his arm talent, I wouldn't think about this for the 6th pick of the draft. I doubt the Giants will either. There is a lot more to playing QB in NYC in the NFL than being able to throw the ball.
The Cards have a ton of holes to fill. Maybe more than us. The OL has already been described as being substantially worse than ours. So that's a hole they need to fill.
Picking Murray and trading Rosen does not allow them to fill holes (at least with a top tier player). It's basically status quo and wasting a top #1 pick...*unless* the difference between Murray and Rosen is *so* great that it makes up for not bettering themselves in other areas.
SO, the question would have to be, is Murray *that* much better so that it creates a difference between the two? Or, is there something about Rosen that lowers him enough to create that gap between the two?
If it's on Rosen, then would we want to also eschew filling our many holes so that we can make the trade. And, then we have to also decide on the relative value/ talent gap between Rosen and Haskins or even Rosen and Tua/Herbert/Fromm/etc
Teams want mobile QBs to help out the OL so, yes, it would help Arizona. What people seem to only want to see is Josh Allen running for TDs or Mahomes making plays outside the pocket. What fans choose to ignore are that these mobile QBs take unnecessary hits and Wilson is really the exception and not the rule. These mobile QB more often than not get injured buying time or using their legs like Wentz, RGIII, Mariota, Tannehill, Rodgers, Big Ben, Darnold, Allen, and the list goes on. It is a cool fad to talk about but games are won from making plays in the pocket. Just my two cents.
So by picking Murray, they're saying that's worth it to not build the line (or defense, depending on what they wold otherwise do with the pick)? And the equation would be more like having Murray and his mobility without a line versus Rosen with an improved line. To me, foregoing getting another top tier player raised a red flag on Rosen.
No, not at all. When did I day anything stupid like that? What that means is that you have an extra year of Murray over Rosen. It means that it is going to take time to build up the OL so they could be wasting at least 2 years of Rosen before that line is adequate. Murray can mask some of their shortcomings while they fix their OL.
Agreed, I think Rosen is more athletic than given credit for.
The relevant equations are probably something like:
Jones/Lock/Grier - 2nd or a couple 4/5/or 6 round vs Rosen - 5th or 6th-best player in the draft
The relevant equations are probably something like:
Jones/Lock/Grier - 2nd or a couple 4/5/or 6 round vs Rosen - 5th or 6th-best player in the draft
I meant margin of talent difference (not even that, just ability to be successful with the NYG) of those alternatives to Rosen.
The relevant equations are probably something like:
Jones/Lock/Grier - 2nd or a couple 4/5/or 6 round vs Rosen - 5th or 6th-best player in the draft
Yes and no. It should be discussed but at the same time you cannot predict if those guys will be avaialble when we pick so we wouldn't be able to sit back and say we are getting Lock or Grier in the second or third so we will pass on Rosen/Haskins/Murray at 6.
The relevant equations are probably something like:
Jones/Lock/Grier - 2nd or a couple 4/5/or 6 round vs Rosen - 5th or 6th-best player in the draft
To add to this, that is like the crowd last year that said to pass on Barkley because that draft was RB rich. Well, a lot of the so called great RBs weren't so great.
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Don't know why my title got cut off:
5'11" Khris Davis standing next to "5'11" Kyler Murray
Trading Beckham is a bad idea in nearly any context unless you got back two 1s and a 2. Which will never happen.
OBJ is a Giant and he should be one for years to come.
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In comment 14256514 section125 said:
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In comment 14256483 JonC said:
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Suit yourself. A lot of it is nonsense, and a lot of is perfectly true and valid. I share what I hear, in my case, it's not regurgitated shit off ESPN or a local rag.
You know more than most here of the inside stuff. But I always wonder what "attitude" means. Is it maturity level (Jameis Winston)? Is it Jay Cutler? Is it stuff that DG and PS won't deal with? Is it so bad that despite needing Eli replaced yesterday, they could not stomach it?
On another track(not JonC), as far as those saying he needs a solid offensive line, Rosen is more mobile than Haskins, who to me looked like a plodder out there. Whatever. Rosen is far more mobile than Eli. Every QB operates better with a solid offensive line and the Giants line was far better than Arizona's and will likely be better next year as I would expect at least a new RT and probably center.
It is typically about maturity, ability and willingness to learn and commit to the work, decision making, responsibility acceptance, long term goals, sullen/negative tendencies, how they treat other people and women, perhaps more problematic social items and even violence Often times, it's average or lesser intelligence, the background of their parents and how they were raised, the neighborhood, etc. Teams work up entire psych profile and info does get passed around and discussed.
This is from an Arizona sun-sentinel article. Maybe he has matured a bit. Or been humbled
“I also told him I thought the way he handled the end of the season, the toughness and kind of keeping his mouth shut, was what you’re looking for. We can build off that.”
Rosen could have complained about a lot of things during his rookie season – from the lack of any innovation involving the playcalling, having to play behind a tattered and torn offensive line and not having enough talent among his wide receivers and tight ends.
Rosen bit his tongue and only praised the players with which he had to work. Now, however, it’s up to Cardinals President Michael Bidwill, General Manager Steve Keim and Kingsbury to rebuild the roster through their $70 million in available salary-cap space and the draft, where they’ll be picking first in every round. Rosen/Kingsbury article - ( New Window )
It's entirely possible, just something the Giants would have to be damned sure of before pulling the trigger.
Not sure what that means. So, if we stayed put and drafted Josh Allen from Kentucky you would say the same thing. The only way this makes sense is if you are saying we tradd down to acquire more picks.
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(not even counting how Rosen compares to Haskins) is Jones or Lock or Grier.
The relevant equations are probably something like:
Jones/Lock/Grier - 2nd or a couple 4/5/or 6 round vs Rosen - 5th or 6th-best player in the draft
Yes and no. It should be discussed but at the same time you cannot predict if those guys will be avaialble when we pick so we wouldn't be able to sit back and say we are getting Lock or Grier in the second or third so we will pass on Rosen/Haskins/Murray at 6.
I wasn't clear. The second part of the equation was subtracting the lower pick that would (might) be needed to move up to get whichever player. So, factor in the difference between the #6 pick in the draft versus the additional 4th or 5th rounder needed to move up from the 2nd round pick.
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Ha...maybe but that pic is taken from a low perspective and shows absolutely nothing.
Don't know why my title got cut off:
5'11" Khris Davis standing next to "5'11" Kyler Murray
When did you turn intk that guy? Come on, you are better than that. No kidding we have a million things to fix. Does that mean we should not go after a potential franchise QB? The first round pick will NEVER fix all issues.
(1) Rosen is probably more likely to maximize the talents of Beckham and Barkley, certainly after 2019, than Lauletta or any QB drafted this year or in 2020. Rosen has already been in the league a year, and was highly rated coming out of college. We just signed Beckham to a $95M contract, and used the #2 pick on Barkley.
(2) A straight trade of Rosen for the #6 pick means we aren't "mortgaging the future" like the Rams and Eagles did for Goff and Wentz.
(3) Lauletta is immediately expendable if we trade for Rosen. in a weak QB class, he'd probably still fetch a day three pick.
Again, I'm not saying I'd make the trade, but it is intriguing.
He was then traded to Green Bay for the 16th pick in the 1st round.
Yes. They save either $17 mill or $11 mill if after the roster bonus kicks in.
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do we cut Eli?
Yes. They save either $17 mill or $11 mill if after the roster bonus kicks in.
Agreed. The Giants would presumably cut Eli if they made this trade. The irony is that the trade might therefore save Tanney's job since he'd be the most likely #2 QB.
No, but there are a handful of teams looking for a low cost QB with promise.
As listed above Wash, Jax, Denver, New Orleans, New England, etc.
There are enough teams with needs that they could not wait around to see if the price drops, unless they are willing to live without him - which is a distinct possibility.
Doubt it. His 5 million dollar roster bonus would have been paid out already. At that point we hold onto him imo.
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do we cut Eli?
Yes. They save either $17 mill or $11 mill if after the roster bonus kicks in.
If that's the case, it likely would not be a draft day (2004 redux) trade, seeing as they have a shorter window to decide on whether or not to keep Eli. Of course, if they are thinking Haskins (or even someone else) they may have already made that decision anyway.
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do we cut Eli?
Doubt it. His 5 million dollar roster bonus would have been paid out already. At that point we hold onto him imo.
They would still save about $11 mill even after the roster bonus is paid.