The ARI Cardinals - Kyler Murray - Josh Rosen

In comment 14256620 JCin332 said:

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In comment 14256474 dep026 said: Quote: go number 1. Let someone take Haskins before us. Bosa Q. Williams Josh Allen Jonah Williams/Clein Ferrell/Devin White Giants become very happy. Bingo...perfect scenario...

I would like this a lot.But then, the scenario almost becomes Barkley - like....is getting Bosa or Allen (etc) worth passing on Rosen.

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pick. Might be. I would guess he goes to Arizona.....with the first pick in the second round.

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In comment 14256761 section125 said:

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In comment 14256756 robbieballs2003 said: Quote: In comment 14256744 SHO'NUFF said: Quote: do we cut Eli? Doubt it. His 5 million dollar roster bonus would have been paid out already. At that point we hold onto him imo. They would still save about $11 mill even after the roster bonus is paid.

One, I don't just like handing someone a starting position. I'd want Rosen to take it from him. Two, I dont think Arizona uses the number one overall pick on Murray and pass on Bosa. So, the way I see this going down would be to take Bosa number 1 and wait to see if Murray is there at 6 before pulling the trigger. That means most of FA is over so what good is the extra 11 mil at that point? If there are guys that are available that can make our team better then awesoms and the chances of Eli getting cut are more likely. With that said, those players that are left at that point are the bargain players. Not much to do with that money. So, imo, you let Eli battle it out with Rosen and let the best man win. Eli has always helped out other QBs on the roster so you don't have to look at him as a distraction. Plus, look at Philly. The passed on a second for Foles last offseason and it paid off. No reason not to have 2 QBs on your roster.

That it's not a rumor and it's speculation, there's a difference. Kingsbury was on record saying he'd take Murray #1 overall, the cards have the #1 pick and he's seen as an innovative outside the box offensive guru.

Not complaining, it's fun speculation in January. If this were on the table the Giants would be dumb not to pursue it. As has been said, you can't read into Rosen's rookie year, he was going through growing pains in an impossible situation. The cards would be eating his signing bonus, he'd be dirt cheap on our cap the next 3 years (4-6M each year). That mitigates your risk in terms of roster construction, even if he ends up being Bortles bad, Bortles bad at a 5M cap hit is something you can work with. Most importantly, there's the upside - he's still more likely to be a franchise QB than any other option in the draft or FA this year.

What it really boils down to is that the Giants are a little more desperate at QB than some realize and don't have a ton of obvious options. They'll probably need to get aggressive and creative if they plan on addressing the position in any serious capacity this year.

In comment 14256758 robbieballs2003 said:

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Agree. AZ picks Bosa, waits to see if Murray is still on the board after the 5th pick, calls NYG.

In comment 14256768 robbieballs2003 said:

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One, I don't just like handing someone a starting position. I'd want Rosen to take it from him. Two, I dont think Arizona uses the number one overall pick on Murray and pass on Bosa. So, the way I see this going down would be to take Bosa number 1 and wait to see if Murray is there at 6 before pulling the trigger. That means most of FA is over so what good is the extra 11 mil at that point? If there are guys that are available that can make our team better then awesoms and the chances of Eli getting cut are more likely. With that said, those players that are left at that point are the bargain players. Not much to do with that money. So, imo, you let Eli battle it out with Rosen and let the best man win. Eli has always helped out other QBs on the roster so you don't have to look at him as a distraction. Plus, look at Philly. The passed on a second for Foles last offseason and it paid off. No reason not to have 2 QBs on your roster.

Not an unfounded point. But $11 mill is $11 mill, whether used this year or next year. Remember there is carryover and there are also trades where a proven vet can be traded for during camp.

Philly passed because Wentz had an ACL and no one knows how soon they heal(usually a year). They had to keep Foles to offset Wentz missing significant time.

And he's already played a year of his rookie contract. I think you could make the case that we would offer our second rounder, but the first rounder is too high a price.

I'm not wild about a straight-up swap, Rosen for #6.

I would want the Cardinals to sweeten the pot.

What kind of pick might the Cardinals throw in?

Their 3rd round this year would be okay I suppose.

If the Cardinals don't want to include a 2019 pick, I would want their 2nd round pick in 2020.

But even though I don't read too much into QB measurables, I feel like he would need to be exceptional to be able to overcome his height. Baker was and had a nice long career of showing excellence.

In comment 14256770 AcesUp said:

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That it's not a rumor and it's speculation, there's a difference. Kingsbury was on record saying he'd take Murray #1 overall, the cards have the #1 pick and he's seen as an innovative outside the box offensive guru. Not complaining, it's fun speculation in January. If this were on the table the Giants would be dumb not to pursue it. As has been said, you can't read into Rosen's rookie year, he was going through growing pains in an impossible situation. The cards would be eating his signing bonus, he'd be dirt cheap on our cap the next 3 years (4-6M each year). That mitigates your risk in terms of roster construction, even if he ends up being Bortles bad, Bortles bad at a 5M cap hit is something you can work with. Most importantly, there's the upside - he's still more likely to be a franchise QB than any other option in the draft or FA this year. What it really boils down to is that the Giants are a little more desperate at QB than some realize and don't have a ton of obvious options. They'll probably need to get aggressive and creative if they plan on addressing the position in any serious capacity this year.

Good points.

One thing I think is a bonus is the Giants have already done all their work on Rosen last year. Who knows what they thought of him? If they liked him, I could see them going after him but if they were a hard pass, I'm sure they'd still be.

Either way they shouldn't have to spend much time if any on evaluating the player and can still spend that time evaluating their own and guys entering this upcoming draft.

In comment 14256775 section125 said:

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In comment 14256768 robbieballs2003 said: Quote: One, I don't just like handing someone a starting position. I'd want Rosen to take it from him. Two, I dont think Arizona uses the number one overall pick on Murray and pass on Bosa. So, the way I see this going down would be to take Bosa number 1 and wait to see if Murray is there at 6 before pulling the trigger. That means most of FA is over so what good is the extra 11 mil at that point? If there are guys that are available that can make our team better then awesoms and the chances of Eli getting cut are more likely. With that said, those players that are left at that point are the bargain players. Not much to do with that money. So, imo, you let Eli battle it out with Rosen and let the best man win. Eli has always helped out other QBs on the roster so you don't have to look at him as a distraction. Plus, look at Philly. The passed on a second for Foles last offseason and it paid off. No reason not to have 2 QBs on your roster. Not an unfounded point. But $11 mill is $11 mill, whether used this year or next year. Remember there is carryover and there are also trades where a proven vet can be traded for during camp. Philly passed because Wentz had an ACL and no one knows how soon they heal(usually a year). They had to keep Foles to offset Wentz missing significant time.

That is partly true. From my understanding Philly was shopping him and wanted a first. If they got a first then I think he would have been dealt. But Wentz's injury definitely played a big factor.

would not make that trade until the draft. If they take Murray with the #1 pick, Rosen's value drops off a cliff as teams know that they have to unload him. He is cost controlled, but you can't pay that kind of money to a backup with little experience. It will also be difficult to keep him as the offense will undoubtedly be altered significantly to fit Murray's strengths with read options, RPOs, etc. If Murray got hurt or flamed out, you can't plug Rosen back in and expect him to succeed.

If the Cardinals call next week and offer Rosen for the #6 pick I would be listening if I was the Giants. If the Cardinals called on draft day after selecting Murray #1 I am starting with either this year's second round pick or possibly next year's #1.

In comment 14256788 Mike from Ohio said:

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would not make that trade until the draft. If they take Murray with the #1 pick, Rosen's value drops off a cliff as teams know that they have to unload him. He is cost controlled, but you can't pay that kind of money to a backup with little experience. It will also be difficult to keep him as the offense will undoubtedly be altered significantly to fit Murray's strengths with read options, RPOs, etc. If Murray got hurt or flamed out, you can't plug Rosen back in and expect him to succeed. If the Cardinals call next week and offer Rosen for the #6 pick I would be listening if I was the Giants. If the Cardinals called on draft day after selecting Murray #1 I am starting with either this year's second round pick or possibly next year's #1.

Agree with you if they take Murray 1st. My point is they will not pass on Bosa and have a deal in place with us prior to the draft that if Murray is available at 6 then we make the trade. If not then they keep Rosen.

In comment 14256770 AcesUp said:

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That it's not a rumor and it's speculation, there's a difference. Kingsbury was on record saying he'd take Murray #1 overall, the cards have the #1 pick and he's seen as an innovative outside the box offensive guru. Not complaining, it's fun speculation in January. If this were on the table the Giants would be dumb not to pursue it. As has been said, you can't read into Rosen's rookie year, he was going through growing pains in an impossible situation. The cards would be eating his signing bonus, he'd be dirt cheap on our cap the next 3 years (4-6M each year). That mitigates your risk in terms of roster construction, even if he ends up being Bortles bad, Bortles bad at a 5M cap hit is something you can work with. Most importantly, there's the upside - he's still more likely to be a franchise QB than any other option in the draft or FA this year. What it really boils down to is that the Giants are a little more desperate at QB than some realize and don't have a ton of obvious options. They'll probably need to get aggressive and creative if they plan on addressing the position in any serious capacity this year.

if we traded for him, his cap hit would actually be less than that. This is what I see
2019 - 1.3m
2020 - 2.1m
2021 - 2.9m

works. Unloading Rosen and bringing in Murray is a complete shift in the way your offense is built. You don't get cute getting the single most important piece of that. You take Murray at #1 and then you get the best defensive player available at #6.

If someone jumps up and grabs Murray between #2 and #5, what options are left? Abandon your entire offensive scheme and stick with Rosen? Hardly worth the risk for the upgrade from who they would get at #6 to Bosa.

In comment 14256801 Mike from Ohio said:

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works. Unloading Rosen and bringing in Murray is a complete shift in the way your offense is built. You don't get cute getting the single most important piece of that. You take Murray at #1 and then you get the best defensive player available at #6. If someone jumps up and grabs Murray between #2 and #5, what options are left? Abandon your entire offensive scheme and stick with Rosen? Hardly worth the risk for the upgrade from who they would get at #6 to Bosa.

He took the job and Arizona hired him based on Rosen as his QB. Murray didn't declare until after he was hired. So, I am sure that Rosen fits what he can do otherwisd he wouldn't have been hired or taken the job. But now that Murray is available that could change things.

and didn't exactly light it up this season. The 6th pick is high - if we want him at all. Now if Arizona is willing to throw in their 2nd round pick, that would make it more interesting.

But I find it personally fascinating, because my position last April was to use the #2 overall on either Barkley or Rosen. I like those two players the most and ended up about 60/40 in favor of Barkley.

To get them both somehow would really be something.

In comment 14256777 Go Terps said:

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And he's already played a year of his rookie contract. I think you could make the case that we would offer our second rounder, but the first rounder is too high a price.

Completely agree. He was worth the #10 pick last year. His value has only gone down since then so #6 this year is entirely too much. Important to remember that if they draft Murray #1, Arizona's bargaining power only goes down as well.

In comment 14256777 Go Terps said:

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And he's already played a year of his rookie contract. I think you could make the case that we would offer our second rounder, but the first rounder is too high a price.

This, losing a year of control on a qb is a big deal. He didn’t light up the world either, even with an awful team

In comment 14256809 Mr. Bungle said:

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But I find it personally fascinating, because my position last April was to use the #2 overall on either Barkley or Rosen. I like those two players the most and ended up about 60/40 in favor of Barkley. To get them both somehow would really be something.

Agree with you. I was basically in the same boat as you. I was probably higher on Barkley but Rosen was right there as was Chubb.

is pretty intriguing.

In comment 14256795 ron mexico said:

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In comment 14256770 AcesUp said: Quote: That it's not a rumor and it's speculation, there's a difference. Kingsbury was on record saying he'd take Murray #1 overall, the cards have the #1 pick and he's seen as an innovative outside the box offensive guru. Not complaining, it's fun speculation in January. If this were on the table the Giants would be dumb not to pursue it. As has been said, you can't read into Rosen's rookie year, he was going through growing pains in an impossible situation. The cards would be eating his signing bonus, he'd be dirt cheap on our cap the next 3 years (4-6M each year). That mitigates your risk in terms of roster construction, even if he ends up being Bortles bad, Bortles bad at a 5M cap hit is something you can work with. Most importantly, there's the upside - he's still more likely to be a franchise QB than any other option in the draft or FA this year. What it really boils down to is that the Giants are a little more desperate at QB than some realize and don't have a ton of obvious options. They'll probably need to get aggressive and creative if they plan on addressing the position in any serious capacity this year. if we traded for him, his cap hit would actually be less than that. This is what I see 2019 - 1.3m 2020 - 2.1m 2021 - 2.9m

You're 100% right.

they need to do it ASAP. You don't wait until the draft. You get him into the building ASAP. You take the head start on indoctrinating him so he can be starting here week 1.

This also allows you to make a decision on Eli. You make a deal if he is willing to mentor, release him, or have time to trade him if he waves hi rights to a destination he likes.

or else he would never have taken the job. What I am arguing is that I would bet he sees a much more unique and explosive offense with Murray at QB. If that is correct, why gamble being able to implement that on hoping the guy is there at #6 instead of just getting him at #1 and still getting a stud defender at #6?

Ideal situation for the cards is what you suggest, Bosa and then trade. Maybe I am just not as much of a gambler, but in my mind I would see Murray as a much more important piece to what I was trying to accomplish than the drop off from Bosa to who I would get at #6.

We've heard on Dave Te's podcast and elsewhere that there may be issues with Rosen in Arizona. If that's the case, I don't know that putting him in our locker room is going to be good for him or the locker room.

In comment 14256821 Dennis From Madison said:

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they need to do it ASAP. You don't wait until the draft. You get him into the building ASAP. You take the head start on indoctrinating him so he can be starting here week 1. This also allows you to make a decision on Eli. You make a deal if he is willing to mentor, release him, or have time to trade him if he waves hi rights to a destination he likes.

Even if the Cards have their sights set on Murray at #1, they're not going to trade Rosen until they've done some diligence on Murray i.e. scouting combine and workout.

In comment 14256809 Mr. Bungle said:

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But I find it personally fascinating, because my position last April was to use the #2 overall on either Barkley or Rosen. I like those two players the most and ended up about 60/40 in favor of Barkley. To get them both somehow would really be something.

Agreed, so intriguing. I love the Barkley pick and that was my first choice, but of the QBs I liked Mayfield/Rosen. Rosen and Barkley together would make me do backflips... lol. That said, I see this as such a LONG shot to be real... and if it is real what's the right price? I would also hope they could re-negotiate with Eli to stay on board. But I might as well ask to win Powerball... lol

which is everyone's wet dream. We could evaluate year 2 and 3 of Rosen. If it's for less than a first rounder I'm on board.

as a comparable vs. Rosen's grade last year.

but I'd also try to milk a mid to late round pick out of it, as well.

would also be a lot cheaper than the #6 pick, which means more money to spend on other players.

but it could sound like shades of the Falcons trading Favre to the Packers for a first rounder in his second year. He fit Holmgren's system for what he wanted in a QB. Ron Wolf took over as the GM and had him as a highly rated QB in 1991 when the Falcons got him in the 2nd round.

There was this note in a story about the Favre trade from Ken Herock, who was the Atlanta GM

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Ken Herock: When I picked Favre, [Glanville] didn't want him. And I didn't care because I thought I was picking a great player. During the whole year after I drafted him, it was partly his fault -- Favre was always late for meetings, drinking a lot, didn't even know the scout plays. He couldn't even run the scout team, they were telling me. I'm not there every day, I might be there through Tuesday and then I'd go out [to scout] for a couple of days, and every time I'd come back they'd say, "Oh, you should see what your guy did today." It was always my guy. It wasn't our guy. It was my guy. And I had no defense. I couldn't come back and say, "This is what he can do." Favre has admitted many times that he was a train wreck as a rookie. He partied, missed meetings and team functions and knew he had fallen into Glanville's doghouse. Meanwhile, Chris Miller turned things around, throwing for more than 3,000 yards and 26 touchdowns in 14 starts. The Falcons went 10-6 and won a wild-card game.

That turned out well. Of course, it could be another Steve Walsh getting traded from Dallas for the Saints first rounder and Walsh wasn't that good. (Which pissed me off because Dallas burned a supplemental first on him out of Miami).

The Cardinals drafted Rosen with their 10th pick last year & if they are shopping him, I think the 2nd round pick would be the starting point.

In comment 14256885 Sean said:

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The Cardinals drafted Rosen with their 10th pick last year & if they are shopping him, I think the 2nd round pick would be the starting point.

Because I would see a team in the late first round make an offer that is better than the Giants 2nd rounder. Patriots. Saints. Hell the Redskins might do it. The Giants offering the 6th overall is going to be tough to beat if this is a possibility.

Good point. Completely didn’t think of teams on the back end of the first round.

It could be a player. I won't say his name because all the same posters will descend on this thread and scream. It's like saying Beetlejuice three times.

In comment 14256897 Go Terps said:

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It could be a player. I won't say his name because all the same posters will descend on this thread and scream. It's like saying Beetlejuice three times.

It would cost the Cards more than Rosen to get him.

In comment 14256894 Matt in SGS said:

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In comment 14256885 Sean said: Quote: The Cardinals drafted Rosen with their 10th pick last year & if they are shopping him, I think the 2nd round pick would be the starting point. Because I would see a team in the late first round make an offer that is better than the Giants 2nd rounder. Patriots. Saints. Hell the Redskins might do it. The Giants offering the 6th overall is going to be tough to beat if this is a possibility.

Yeah I am with Matt on this. There are definitely teams at the back end of the first who would certainly trade a 1st for Rosen.

In comment 14256745 twostepgiants said:

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The Falcons take Favre at top of round 2 in 1991. He struggled with work ethic, attitude & drinking there. In his playing time, he took 4 snaps. 2 were intercepted and one was returned for a TD and a he took a sack. He didn’t complete a pass. The HC Jerry Glanville did not want him. He was then traded to Green Bay for the 16th pick in the 1st round.

Sorry twostep, didn't see this in the thread when I posted. The other example was Steve Walsh going from Dallas to the Saints after Aikman held off his challenge.

want more in return. With that said, I truly doubt Arizon gives up multiple picks. They have many needs as well and cannot afford to give up all these picks. What I can see happening is swaping picks in rounds or giving is an additional 2 and 6 while we give up two 4s or something like that. That way we both have the same number of picks but the value is evened out.

In comment 14256908 robbieballs2003 said:

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want more in return. With that said, I truly doubt Arizon gives up multiple picks. They have many needs as well and cannot afford to give up all these picks. What I can see happening is swaping picks in rounds or giving is an additional 2 and 6 while we give up two 4s or something like that. That way we both have the same number of picks but the value is evened out.

This sounds reasonable, especially with all the late picks the Giants have, they can actually use them as part of some offsets and even move up, maybe get that 3rd rounder back.

In comment 14256897 Go Terps said:

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It could be a player. I won't say his name because all the same posters will descend on this thread and scream. It's like saying Beetlejuice three times.

But you did anyway and couldn't help yourself. Why would this not be sufficient:

It doesn't have to be a pick that we trade. It could be a player.

In comment 14256910 robbieballs2003 said:

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In comment 14256897 Go Terps said: Quote: It could be a player. I won't say his name because all the same posters will descend on this thread and scream. It's like saying Beetlejuice three times. But you did anyway and couldn't help yourself. Why would this not be sufficient: It doesn't have to be a pick that we trade. It could be a player.

I have to admit... I lol'ed at the Beetlejuice line. That was damned funny.

He reminds me of myself. He made up his mind and is sticking to it no matter what anybody else says. It's admirable to an extent.

If I'm proven wrong I have no problems admitting it.

"No matter what anybody else says" doesn't cut it.

would have some credence if Rosen was even considered by DG last year. All I've seen on here is that it was Barkley, Chubb and Darnold.

and OBJ and Evan Engram and FA/Draft to fix the O-line is the stuff that this Giants fan's dreams are made of. I think it would be a mistake for Cards essentially to swap out Rosen for Murray who seems to be a smaller version of RGIII. But if this is a real possibility, I'd urge Giants to explore it seriously.