Just remembered this: Ben McAdoo went to 1 Pro Day when he was the Giants coach. It just so happened to be at Texas Tech (where Kingsbury coached) to see Patrick Mahomes. McAdoo loved Mahomes in that draft.
But Shurmur is largely given a pass for another bad season because of these excuses in his defense:
Poor past drafts, poor roster management, roster turnover with new GM, etc. And he had a head coaching gig a few years back in Cleveland.
Yet, compared to McAdoo's last year, Shurmur had a dynamic RB, money invested in a new OL, a mostly healthy OBJ and Engram, and a veteran QB was back with these new toys.
But we vilify McAdoo. Who was right in the middle of the poor drafting and personnel management, had to deal with some major injuries, a diva WR who would rather work on his tan than get ready for a playoff game, and an owner who caved to mob rule.
McAdoo lost the team because the team was in a failure vortex, mostly beyond his control.
It's really too bad he gets painted as one of the root cause of this continuing disaster. He was really just another passenger in this mess.
Why can’t McAdoo be complimented for 2016? Did he not do a good job coaching that season?
As an OC. No. HC. Sure. But his offenses were never all that. To be fair the OL has been a shit show and limited talent after OBJ. Funny how the same people who hate on Shurmur Seem to want to give him a total pass. So yeah he can't be totally blamed but anyone who thinks he's some great OC or his offenses were great needs to go to rehab and dry out
Do you honestly think that Ben McAdoo would have successful in developing Patrick Mahomes the way Andy Reid has?
Just because Mac saw the decline in Eli Manning doesn't mean he was the right guy to fix the issue.
Did any offensive player besides Eli Manning and Odell GET better here during his two years as OC and 1 3/4s seasons as head coach?
I think Mahomes is such a talent that he could have been successful anywhere.
I agree Reid is a spectacular coach. But it's unfair to assume Mahomes is where he is largely because of Reid.
I think if the Jets drafted Dan Marino he would have been successful under Joe Walton. A lot of the success just comes down to the talent level.
I'm not sure we had enough talent on the roster to reasonably say McAdoo did or didn't get the most out of their ability.
I think it's very fair to assume that Reid is hell of a QB whisperer. He's developed McNabb and then was able to win with stiffs like AJ Feely and Kolb and then flip them for draft capital.
Reid also had Alex Smith and Smith had his best seasons with Reid.
I just find it hard to believe McAdoo would have had the same success that Reid is having with Mahomes currently.
I think Reid is underrated in the regular season and I'd like to see him finally win the big one.
isn't given a pass, he's given an incomplete. Hopefully, unlike McAdoo, his second season shows improvement instead of him walking in the first day of camp looking like Gordon Gecko, happy for a playoff berth.
If we are just judging on offensive output, Shurmur has already shown he has the chops over McAdoo in that capacity, but I'd even guess the hate for the guy is so illogical that people would even debate that.
But I think it is really cool that bw continues to trot the conspiracy theory that mob rule is the only reason Eli is still a Giant. Crazy as a fucking loon, but cool nonetheless.
I think it's very fair to assume that Reid is hell of a QB whisperer. He's developed McNabb and then was able to win with stiffs like AJ Feely and Kolb and then flip them for draft capital.
Reid also had Alex Smith and Smith had his best seasons with Reid.
I just find it hard to believe McAdoo would have had the same success that Reid is having with Mahomes currently.
I think Reid is underrated in the regular season and I'd like to see him finally win the big one.
I am a Reid fan. So I hear you. But Mahomes, McNabb, and Smith were top of the draft talents. So Reid was making chicken salad out of some fine poultry.
Reid's genius is play design and strategy. And he fits plan design to the skill set of his talent.
However, I just think it's important to underscore the talent part. A reason why Reid's offenses look so good is because the talent can execute what his mind sees.
So while McAdoo isn't in Reid's class, it's unfair to suggest Mahomes would not be successful if he was here. That guy is gifted and has incredible ability to improvise when the called play breaks down...
isn't given a pass, he's given an incomplete. Hopefully, unlike McAdoo, his second season shows improvement instead of him walking in the first day of camp looking like Gordon Gecko, happy for a playoff berth.
If we are just judging on offensive output, Shurmur has already shown he has the chops over McAdoo in that capacity, but I'd even guess the hate for the guy is so illogical that people would even debate that.
But I think it is really cool that bw continues to trot the conspiracy theory that mob rule is the only reason Eli is still a Giant. Crazy as a fucking loon, but cool nonetheless.
Of course Shurmur got better output - he had better personnel to work with. You're a smart guy, so you know that.
I don't have any hate for Shurmur. I just have reservations. The same reservations I had for McAdoo.
Mob rule certainly drove McAdoo to the exits. You have to be honest about that. The eruption of outrage to Eli's benching in the media, and the fans, was a very big deal.
All the Eli Manning benching did was get him there before the end of the season, but that car was leaving no matter what.
It wasn't just the eli thing. He lost the trust of several defensive players. He literally had two of them walk off a field and another one quit on the team (Apple). He came in 2017 a completely different person. Slick hair, sunglasses, and a swagger that wasn't warranted and teh team saw right through it.
The guys was a terrible communicator and was completely out of his league leading the team.
He was getting fired along with Reese, but if it hadn't been for the Eli benching, it likely would've been after the season.
That team goes 7-9, maybe worse. Shumur's performance this year was a joke. The only two arguments anyone has been able to make it favor of keeping him are very nebulous:
1. They played hard for him. (Really?)
2. You don't fire a coach after 1 year.
That's it. If he repeats his 2018 performance in 2019 the calls to fire him will be ubiquitous.
You’re seriously telling me that the 2016 giants would have been significantly worse with shurmur at HC instead of mcadoo.
But Shurmur is largely given a pass for another bad season because of these excuses in his defense:
Poor past drafts, poor roster management, roster turnover with new GM, etc. And he had a head coaching gig a few years back in Cleveland.
Yet, compared to McAdoo's last year, Shurmur had a dynamic RB, money invested in a new OL, a mostly healthy OBJ and Engram, and a veteran QB was back with these new toys.
But we vilify McAdoo. Who was right in the middle of the poor drafting and personnel management, had to deal with some major injuries, a diva WR who would rather work on his tan than get ready for a playoff game, and an owner who caved to mob rule.
McAdoo lost the team because the team was in a failure vortex, mostly beyond his control.
It's really too bad he gets painted as one of the root cause of this continuing disaster. He was really just another passenger in this mess.
Oh for fucks sake you left out the whole LOADED defense aspect of this thing. 2016 defense? Loaded on paper. Offense had continuity and was coming off a 420 point output the year prior! 2017 team? Same defense and the same offense with added TE talent. That team fucking quit.
The 2018 giants had more offensive talent and they played much much better, especially second half. The defense didn’t consist of 1/3 of the talent from 2016.
how much I want this schlub to fail at any NFL venture and I'm pretty confident it'll happen, as I've seen deeper thoughts from cows chewing cud.
Yes I am. Shurmur has only been awful as a head coach. Double his best win total and it doesn't get to what McAdoo got on his first year.
Any argument that Shurmur is something other than awful as a head coach has to be based on faith, because there is no actual evidence to support it.
If you want to have faith that Shurmur will improve as a head coach that's fine. That's your prerogative.
But know that it's faith, and not fact. If Shurmur continues to be in 2019 what he has been up to this point, we're going to have a new head coach in 2020.
how much I want this schlub to fail at any NFL venture and I'm pretty confident it'll happen, as I've seen deeper thoughts from cows chewing cud.
Yes I am. Shurmur has only been awful as a head coach. Double his best win total and it doesn't get to what McAdoo got on his first year.
Any argument that Shurmur is something other than awful as a head coach has to be based on faith, because there is no actual evidence to support it.
If you want to have faith that Shurmur will improve as a head coach that's fine. That's your prerogative.
But know that it's faith, and not fact. If Shurmur continues to be in 2019 what he has been up to this point, we're going to have a new head coach in 2020.
Something has to change.
There's really not much in the way of facts when it comes to Shurmur has a head coach either. He's been here one year. His last stint was SEVEN years ago inside the armpit of the NFL where much more highly thought of NFL minds have gone and faultered. Thats a very small, muddled sample size.
If they legitimately plug holes in this defense over the next few months and his team still sucks next season then yeah, he's an awful head coach and he'll probably be gone.
McAdoo's sample size is even smaller, includes an 11 win season, and we don't seem to have a problem concluding that he sucks. We don't give him the benefit of the doubt for dealing with a locker room full of losers who spent the 2016-2017 offseason smelling their own farts.
Taken on its own, Shurmur's 2018 performance was atrocious. He's got to do a lot better, and we don't know that he can.
McAdoo's sample size is even smaller, includes an 11 win season, and we don't seem to have a problem concluding that he sucks. We don't give him the benefit of the doubt for dealing with a locker room full of losers who spent the 2016-2017 offseason smelling their own farts.
Taken on its own, Shurmur's 2018 performance was atrocious. He's got to do a lot better, and we don't know that he can.
Come on Terps. Fat-Mara in Charlotte was lecturing me above that it was McAdoo's fault because he got a haircut and wore sun glasses. And that tore the team apart.
Forget the injuries, resting on laurels of previous season, aging Eli etc...
The "success"of the offense with him as OC is overrated IMO Â
if that's what you call a lecture, I should become a professor:
Quote:
Come on Terps. Fat-Mara in Charlotte was lecturing me above that it was McAdoo's fault because he got a haircut and wore sun glasses. And that tore the team apart.
The hair and glasses didn't tear the team apart. The fact he thought he achieved greatness by reaching the playoffs and getting bounced in the first round - and then shows up to camp like he's a different man likely soured the team on him.
Are you really going to take him seriously? Because I'm pretty sure the team didn't
McAdoo didn't deserve to be taken seriously in 2017, Â
but neither did the players. That team was a joke, and yeah they got rid of many of them but many of the higher profile guys remain. It shouldn't have surprised us that they continued to suck.
It is quite extraordinary to make the playoffs as a Giants coach and get fired the next year. You really have to royally fuck things up.
yep
Ugh, you're back?
This place gets worse by the day.
But Shurmur is largely given a pass for another bad season because of these excuses in his defense:
Poor past drafts, poor roster management, roster turnover with new GM, etc. And he had a head coaching gig a few years back in Cleveland.
Yet, compared to McAdoo's last year, Shurmur had a dynamic RB, money invested in a new OL, a mostly healthy OBJ and Engram, and a veteran QB was back with these new toys.
But we vilify McAdoo. Who was right in the middle of the poor drafting and personnel management, had to deal with some major injuries, a diva WR who would rather work on his tan than get ready for a playoff game, and an owner who caved to mob rule.
McAdoo lost the team because the team was in a failure vortex, mostly beyond his control.
It's really too bad he gets painted as one of the root cause of this continuing disaster. He was really just another passenger in this mess.
As an OC. No. HC. Sure. But his offenses were never all that. To be fair the OL has been a shit show and limited talent after OBJ. Funny how the same people who hate on Shurmur Seem to want to give him a total pass. So yeah he can't be totally blamed but anyone who thinks he's some great OC or his offenses were great needs to go to rehab and dry out
Quote:
Do you honestly think that Ben McAdoo would have successful in developing Patrick Mahomes the way Andy Reid has?
Just because Mac saw the decline in Eli Manning doesn't mean he was the right guy to fix the issue.
Did any offensive player besides Eli Manning and Odell GET better here during his two years as OC and 1 3/4s seasons as head coach?
I think Mahomes is such a talent that he could have been successful anywhere.
I agree Reid is a spectacular coach. But it's unfair to assume Mahomes is where he is largely because of Reid.
I think if the Jets drafted Dan Marino he would have been successful under Joe Walton. A lot of the success just comes down to the talent level.
I'm not sure we had enough talent on the roster to reasonably say McAdoo did or didn't get the most out of their ability.
I think it's very fair to assume that Reid is hell of a QB whisperer. He's developed McNabb and then was able to win with stiffs like AJ Feely and Kolb and then flip them for draft capital.
Reid also had Alex Smith and Smith had his best seasons with Reid.
I just find it hard to believe McAdoo would have had the same success that Reid is having with Mahomes currently.
I think Reid is underrated in the regular season and I'd like to see him finally win the big one.
If we are just judging on offensive output, Shurmur has already shown he has the chops over McAdoo in that capacity, but I'd even guess the hate for the guy is so illogical that people would even debate that.
But I think it is really cool that bw continues to trot the conspiracy theory that mob rule is the only reason Eli is still a Giant. Crazy as a fucking loon, but cool nonetheless.
+1
I think it's very fair to assume that Reid is hell of a QB whisperer. He's developed McNabb and then was able to win with stiffs like AJ Feely and Kolb and then flip them for draft capital.
Reid also had Alex Smith and Smith had his best seasons with Reid.
I just find it hard to believe McAdoo would have had the same success that Reid is having with Mahomes currently.
I think Reid is underrated in the regular season and I'd like to see him finally win the big one.
I am a Reid fan. So I hear you. But Mahomes, McNabb, and Smith were top of the draft talents. So Reid was making chicken salad out of some fine poultry.
Reid's genius is play design and strategy. And he fits plan design to the skill set of his talent.
However, I just think it's important to underscore the talent part. A reason why Reid's offenses look so good is because the talent can execute what his mind sees.
So while McAdoo isn't in Reid's class, it's unfair to suggest Mahomes would not be successful if he was here. That guy is gifted and has incredible ability to improvise when the called play breaks down...
If we are just judging on offensive output, Shurmur has already shown he has the chops over McAdoo in that capacity, but I'd even guess the hate for the guy is so illogical that people would even debate that.
But I think it is really cool that bw continues to trot the conspiracy theory that mob rule is the only reason Eli is still a Giant. Crazy as a fucking loon, but cool nonetheless.
Of course Shurmur got better output - he had better personnel to work with. You're a smart guy, so you know that.
I don't have any hate for Shurmur. I just have reservations. The same reservations I had for McAdoo.
Mob rule certainly drove McAdoo to the exits. You have to be honest about that. The eruption of outrage to Eli's benching in the media, and the fans, was a very big deal.
All the Eli Manning benching did was get him there before the end of the season, but that car was leaving no matter what.
It wasn't just the eli thing. He lost the trust of several defensive players. He literally had two of them walk off a field and another one quit on the team (Apple). He came in 2017 a completely different person. Slick hair, sunglasses, and a swagger that wasn't warranted and teh team saw right through it.
The guys was a terrible communicator and was completely out of his league leading the team.
He was getting fired along with Reese, but if it hadn't been for the Eli benching, it likely would've been after the season.
1. They played hard for him. (Really?)
2. You don't fire a coach after 1 year.
That's it. If he repeats his 2018 performance in 2019 the calls to fire him will be ubiquitous.
You’re seriously telling me that the 2016 giants would have been significantly worse with shurmur at HC instead of mcadoo.
Dude...
But Shurmur is largely given a pass for another bad season because of these excuses in his defense:
Poor past drafts, poor roster management, roster turnover with new GM, etc. And he had a head coaching gig a few years back in Cleveland.
Yet, compared to McAdoo's last year, Shurmur had a dynamic RB, money invested in a new OL, a mostly healthy OBJ and Engram, and a veteran QB was back with these new toys.
But we vilify McAdoo. Who was right in the middle of the poor drafting and personnel management, had to deal with some major injuries, a diva WR who would rather work on his tan than get ready for a playoff game, and an owner who caved to mob rule.
McAdoo lost the team because the team was in a failure vortex, mostly beyond his control.
It's really too bad he gets painted as one of the root cause of this continuing disaster. He was really just another passenger in this mess.
Oh for fucks sake you left out the whole LOADED defense aspect of this thing. 2016 defense? Loaded on paper. Offense had continuity and was coming off a 420 point output the year prior! 2017 team? Same defense and the same offense with added TE talent. That team fucking quit.
The 2018 giants had more offensive talent and they played much much better, especially second half. The defense didn’t consist of 1/3 of the talent from 2016.
Give me a fucking break!!!
Yes I am. Shurmur has only been awful as a head coach. Double his best win total and it doesn't get to what McAdoo got on his first year.
Any argument that Shurmur is something other than awful as a head coach has to be based on faith, because there is no actual evidence to support it.
If you want to have faith that Shurmur will improve as a head coach that's fine. That's your prerogative.
But know that it's faith, and not fact. If Shurmur continues to be in 2019 what he has been up to this point, we're going to have a new head coach in 2020.
Something has to change.
Quote:
how much I want this schlub to fail at any NFL venture and I'm pretty confident it'll happen, as I've seen deeper thoughts from cows chewing cud.
Yes I am. Shurmur has only been awful as a head coach. Double his best win total and it doesn't get to what McAdoo got on his first year.
Any argument that Shurmur is something other than awful as a head coach has to be based on faith, because there is no actual evidence to support it.
If you want to have faith that Shurmur will improve as a head coach that's fine. That's your prerogative.
But know that it's faith, and not fact. If Shurmur continues to be in 2019 what he has been up to this point, we're going to have a new head coach in 2020.
Something has to change.
There's really not much in the way of facts when it comes to Shurmur has a head coach either. He's been here one year. His last stint was SEVEN years ago inside the armpit of the NFL where much more highly thought of NFL minds have gone and faultered. Thats a very small, muddled sample size.
If they legitimately plug holes in this defense over the next few months and his team still sucks next season then yeah, he's an awful head coach and he'll probably be gone.
Taken on its own, Shurmur's 2018 performance was atrocious. He's got to do a lot better, and we don't know that he can.
Taken on its own, Shurmur's 2018 performance was atrocious. He's got to do a lot better, and we don't know that he can.
Come on Terps. Fat-Mara in Charlotte was lecturing me above that it was McAdoo's fault because he got a haircut and wore sun glasses. And that tore the team apart.
Forget the injuries, resting on laurels of previous season, aging Eli etc...
The hair and glasses didn't tear the team apart. The fact he thought he achieved greatness by reaching the playoffs and getting bounced in the first round - and then shows up to camp like he's a different man likely soured the team on him.
Are you really going to take him seriously? Because I'm pretty sure the team didn't