Been talking about this in a group chat that has fans of all different teams one being the Eagles. What would you do if you ran that team (take away any Giants bias if possible).
Would anyone try to trade away Wentz and resign Foles? I'm leaning towards yes even though Wentz is better. Between the injuries and him being due a massive contract I think i'd rather hitch my wagon to Foles on a cheaper deal and grab another high pick for a playmaker.
Curious what BBI thinks.
Foles has played well in spots and had a great SB.... but let’s be real... he has a lot more stinkers than many want to admit.
Foles has played well in spots and had a great SB.... but let’s be real... he has a lot more stinkers than many want to admit.
Agreed, overall Wentz is a better qb. Foles has played well in spots and had great run last year. But I think the Foles rides comes to an end soon. That said if he plays well in NO, a place few visiting qbs do, I will be impressed.
But I agree, I hope whatever they do ends up being the wrong move, haha.
It will be really tricky though for the Eagles if Foles continues this run.
This is definitely the least surprising response this thread will get.
This all being said, let's say the Eagles O-line diminishes over the next year. Who do you think is more likely to carry this team to the playoffs: Wentz or Foles?
Foles is better for this current team, but Wentz, with a change in offensive philosophy, is better for long-term success. BDN is only as good as the team around him. On the other hand, I think Wentz can carry a team similar to Aaron Rodgers. He's that good.
Look no further than Luck this year, with a far worse injury, to know you do not get rid of Wentz. So young, so talented.
Giving up Wentz could be the equivalent of giving up Brees, historically
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If it's between the two, I'd probably stick with Foles. But I'd consider exploring a new QB situation altogether.
This is definitely the least surprising response this thread will get.
Why? Wentz looked a complete mess this year. Foles isn't perfect, but you can't deny the guy is a gamer.
And if you don't think paying Foles is worth it, go in another direction. But I definitely wouldn't go with Wentz. I think that'd be the most dangerous option.
The Saints are going to fucking roll them this weekend. The Bears had WRs get open and catch passes and lose their balance and fall down. Those are going to go for TDs. The magic of Foles will end with a thud.
They will franchise Foles and trade him to they highest bidder. He won't see free agency.
In comment 14257014 Matt in SGS said:
The Saints are going to fucking roll them this weekend. The Bears had WRs get open and catch passes and lose their balance and fall down. Those are going to go for TDs. The magic of Foles will end with a thud.
Brady was staying so that decision made itself, the question was just when to trade JG and to whom/for what.
This is purely a risk-based decision. No doubt Wentz is better, but will he be healthy and how long will he stay healthy? Would you be comfortable with the Giants giving Wentz $30m a year? I wouldn't.
Let's first of all not give Wentz any kind of pass this year coming off major knee injury that was sustained late in the 2017 season... forcing him to miss most of training camp and had Foles start the first 2 games of the season.
Let's also put aside the brilliant 2017 sophomore campaign he was having pre injury.
Wentz 2018 stats:
70% completion, 3000 yards, 288 yards per game, 7.7 YPA, 21 TDS, 7 picks
Yeah... what a "complete mess" (my eyes are now in the back of my head after the roll...)
This all being said, let's say the Eagles O-line diminishes over the next year. Who do you think is more likely to carry this team to the playoffs: Wentz or Foles?
Foles is better for this current team, but Wentz, with a change in offensive philosophy, is better for long-term success. BDN is only as good as the team around him. On the other hand, I think Wentz can carry a team similar to Aaron Rodgers. He's that good.
How does this make any sense? Carson Wentz had a losing record with this team this season. Had a losing record his first season. Foles is 5-1 this year as the starter. Had one loss in a meaningless game last season. What basis is there to say that Wentz "can carry a team by itself"
Nick Foles's stats over the last two seasons when he has played under pressure are far superior to Wentz's. Despite what some have said above, Wentz has never shown he can be a dropback passer. He doesn't utlitize the field nearly as effectively as Foles does. I have no idea what they should do, but I think the question of who they should keep is not as simple as some on here make it.
As to the Giants, I am not interested in paying Nick Foles money to come here. My above statement only indicates that I think the key to success in Philly is the offensive line, Doug Pederson, and the ridiculous production they get out of their guys near or above 30 (Jenkins, Peters, Sproles, Graham, Michael Bennett, Long, etc--) especially on the DL. Those are three things we do not have here. Thus, not really interested in bringing in Foles because not sure he would be successful here. Much rather wait it out and draft a qb.
In comment 14257014 Matt in SGS said:
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Foles threw some stinkers in Chicago that and they were lucky to win.
The Saints are going to fucking roll them this weekend. The Bears had WRs get open and catch passes and lose their balance and fall down. Those are going to go for TDs. The magic of Foles will end with a thud.
Unless Brees craps himself, or the Eagles DL overwhelms the Saints OL, the Saints are going to have guys running free all over. The Bears had open guys that Trubisky just missed that threw off their stride and they fell down. Even at the end of the game it happened. The Saints are going to have guys running free.
I'm a big believer that in the playoffs, your weakness will end up killing you and ending your season. The Eagles defensive backs are not good, and they got exposed for a while but they have been able to hide a bit during this late run.
The Saints are a different beast in that dome. They are a bully team at home. Once they get rolling, they don't stop. If the Eagles can't run and control the clock and pressure Brees, they are going to get bombed. 35-10 Saints. This Eagles nonsense ends in the Big Easy.
But he obviously still has the "jump-off-the-screen" skills that are too good to give up on. And he's still on his rookie contract. Like dep said, he was on target for the MVP last year.
So for me, despite the good work Foles does in this intermittent appearances, the decision is a no-brainer - keep Wentz. And find a back-up when Foles leaves.
Wentz is the better player, but you have to be concerned with injuries each year. It could be a Phil Simms type thing, bad breaks that don't reflect the rest of his career, but that is a tough bet to make. Foles is JAG, but he doesn't shrink from big moments.
That could destroy the team as soon as one of them starts playing badly.
Wentz is clearly and easily the better talent. But is he injury prone? And a back issue just doesn't go away.
Ultimately I'd go with Wentz and let Foles leave via free agency...........and think the Eagles will do the same.
Let's first of all not give Wentz any kind of pass this year coming off major knee injury that was sustained late in the 2017 season... forcing him to miss most of training camp and had Foles start the first 2 games of the season.
Let's also put aside the brilliant 2017 sophomore campaign he was having pre injury.
Wentz 2018 stats:
70% completion, 3000 yards, 288 yards per game, 7.7 YPA, 21 TDS, 7 picks
Yeah... what a "complete mess" (my eyes are now in the back of my head after the roll...)
He's a good player, but he didn't look right. I wouldn't trust that he's all the way back from that injury.
As a Giant fan I'm really hoping they pay him.
But he obviously still has the "jump-off-the-screen" skills that are too good to give up on. And he's still on his rookie contract. Like dep said, he was on target for the MVP last year.
So for me, despite the good work Foles does in this intermittent appearances, the decision is a no-brainer - keep Wentz. And find a back-up when Foles leaves.
Good post, with an emphasis on "intermittent". Foles is the classic backup that plays well in small spurts...and still struggles. Look at the games over the last two years.
It's not an outlandish thing to consider alternatives to Wentz in the Eagles' future.
Wentz past two years (forget his rookie season, i think that's reasonable):
24 games, 6400 yards, 7.6 YPA, 262 yds/game, 54 TDs / 14 picks, 65% completion
Foles starts:
12 starts, 3090 yards, 7.2 YPA, 255 yds/game, 20 TDs / 9 picks, 67% completion
Ages:
Wentz 26
Foles 30
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Let's first of all not give Wentz any kind of pass this year coming off major knee injury that was sustained late in the 2017 season... forcing him to miss most of training camp and had Foles start the first 2 games of the season.
Let's also put aside the brilliant 2017 sophomore campaign he was having pre injury.
Wentz 2018 stats:
70% completion, 3000 yards, 288 yards per game, 7.7 YPA, 21 TDS, 7 picks
Yeah... what a "complete mess" (my eyes are now in the back of my head after the roll...)
He's a good player, but he didn't look right. I wouldn't trust that he's all the way back from that injury.
As a Giant fan I'm really hoping they pay him.
As long as they pay someone, lol, they will start to see their roster suffer talent wise.
The Eagles have a big draft coming up. They have some older players to think about replacing, and some QB to pay.
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Let's first of all not give Wentz any kind of pass this year coming off major knee injury that was sustained late in the 2017 season... forcing him to miss most of training camp and had Foles start the first 2 games of the season.
Let's also put aside the brilliant 2017 sophomore campaign he was having pre injury.
Wentz 2018 stats:
70% completion, 3000 yards, 288 yards per game, 7.7 YPA, 21 TDS, 7 picks
Yeah... what a "complete mess" (my eyes are now in the back of my head after the roll...)
He's a good player, but he didn't look right. I wouldn't trust that he's all the way back from that injury.
As a Giant fan I'm really hoping they pay him.
Probably wasnt .... plus he played with a back fracture.
Incredibly, he still played at a very high level - 280 yards/game, 7.7 YPA, only 7 picks, about 2 TDs per game... despite all this.
I agree you dont pay mediocre QBs big money (Cousins, Keenum, even Jimmy G who was unproven, etc.). But guys like Wentz, Brees, Rodgers, Brady.... Ben,Rivers,Eli in their primes... you back up the Brinx for these guys.
Wentz is clearly the better choice.
Wentz past two years (forget his rookie season, i think that's reasonable):
24 games, 6400 yards, 7.6 YPA, 262 yds/game, 54 TDs / 14 picks, 65% completion
Foles starts:
12 starts, 3090 yards, 7.2 YPA, 255 yds/game, 20 TDs / 9 picks, 67% completion
Ages:
Wentz 26
Foles 30
I don't see much of a difference besides TD passes in those stats and I know Wentz did not have a winning record this year. I know Foles is 5-1 this season. I know the offense did not move at times under Wentz and although he completed a high percentage of passes, his accuracy was placed in doubt all season. Throwing behind receivers and in there system that matters because many of the passes in the shorter range with nice RAC yards. Thus, if you throw behind the receiver you might get the completion but you don't get the same RAC. I watch most every NFL game on Game Pass and the difference between Foles in that offense and Wentz has been noticeable. Take the second Cowboy game for example, Wentz left with a good stat line, but he could hardly move the offense for the first 2.5 quarters. That is what lost them the game.
And if that happens, there is no way in hell you can let Foles go and keep Wentz.
I would absolutely trade Wentz for picks and potentially grab my next QB in 2020.
We're talking about whether to pay Wentz premium QB money. It's been proven that the Eagles can win without Wentz...he is not THE reason they're winning. They've won a Super Bowl with his replacement, and then turned a 5-6 season into a 9-7 playoff appearance with his replacement.
If you know you can win without him, why pay him?
Wentz is clearly the better choice.
I don't think its clear at all. If injuries didn't matter than sure. But since they do matter, what's the better choice, giving an injury prone Wents a 5 year, $150m deal with $100m guaranteed or give Foles 3 years $60m?
Again its a question about the investment, not who's the better player.
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........Foles is "no messiah. He's a movie of the week. He's a f'ing T-shirt, at best."
Wentz is clearly the better choice.
I don't think its clear at all. If injuries didn't matter than sure. But since they do matter, what's the better choice, giving an injury prone Wents a 5 year, $150m deal with $100m guaranteed or give Foles 3 years $60m?
Again its a question about the investment, not who's the better player.
Well, in terms of injury........is Foles some iron man? I mean......the one season he started he was injured too. And the other season he started he was basically benched.
Again..I think the huge mistakes people make with Foles is looking at his small sample size.
I’ll have whatever CiP is having
Foles Article - ( New Window )
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In comment 14257080 BillKo said:
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........Foles is "no messiah. He's a movie of the week. He's a f'ing T-shirt, at best."
Wentz is clearly the better choice.
I don't think its clear at all. If injuries didn't matter than sure. But since they do matter, what's the better choice, giving an injury prone Wents a 5 year, $150m deal with $100m guaranteed or give Foles 3 years $60m?
Again its a question about the investment, not who's the better player.
Well, in terms of injury........is Foles some iron man? I mean......the one season he started he was injured too. And the other season he started he was basically benched.
Again..I think the huge mistakes people make with Foles is looking at his small sample size.
When you say small sample size do you mean people thinking he's great based on 2018/19? Because I don't, I think he's probably just a an average player over 16 games on any other roster, but for whatever reason he's working there and that's all that would matter for the Eagles. And then there's the cost savings and what you can do with it which is a huge portion of this hypothetical.
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In comment 14257098 UConn4523 said:
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In comment 14257080 BillKo said:
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........Foles is "no messiah. He's a movie of the week. He's a f'ing T-shirt, at best."
Wentz is clearly the better choice.
I don't think its clear at all. If injuries didn't matter than sure. But since they do matter, what's the better choice, giving an injury prone Wents a 5 year, $150m deal with $100m guaranteed or give Foles 3 years $60m?
Again its a question about the investment, not who's the better player.
Well, in terms of injury........is Foles some iron man? I mean......the one season he started he was injured too. And the other season he started he was basically benched.
Again..I think the huge mistakes people make with Foles is looking at his small sample size.
When you say small sample size do you mean people thinking he's great based on 2018/19? Because I don't, I think he's probably just a an average player over 16 games on any other roster, but for whatever reason he's working there and that's all that would matter for the Eagles. And then there's the cost savings and what you can do with it which is a huge portion of this hypothetical.
What I am saying, is over 16 games, he'll be average for any team, including the Eagles.
And again you say he's working out for the Eagles, but it's still a small sample size.
I kinda equate this guy to Ryan Fitzpatrick. If you see RF for short spurts, you'd think this guy is really something special. Zips the ball, daring, plays with heart......but over the long haul, he is what he is.
I don't think Foles can do it for an extended period of time.
If I felt better about Wentz' health this wouldn't be much of a question for me but I really question how that will go, and if he tries to modify his game to take less hits, how much of a dropoff will he have in production.
Someone mentioned Luck earlier but Luck was already an elite pocket passer - is Wentz?
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but the better fit for offense and all that is ... I dont know, i just like to look at cold hard facts.
Wentz past two years (forget his rookie season, i think that's reasonable):
24 games, 6400 yards, 7.6 YPA, 262 yds/game, 54 TDs / 14 picks, 65% completion
Foles starts:
12 starts, 3090 yards, 7.2 YPA, 255 yds/game, 20 TDs / 9 picks, 67% completion
Ages:
Wentz 26
Foles 30
I don't see much of a difference besides TD passes in those stats and I know Wentz did not have a winning record this year. I know Foles is 5-1 this season. I know the offense did not move at times under Wentz and although he completed a high percentage of passes, his accuracy was placed in doubt all season.
Eagles defense gives up 23.3 points per game in Wentz starts, 17.8 ppg in Foles starts.
"Offense did not move the ball at times" - can be said about virtually any QB... and Wentz numbers above are better than Foles, both in YPA and in TD:INT ratio, so.......
Assuming his knee is back to normal, I’d sure as hell trade for him
I think you go with Wentz, but i get the sense 20 years from now we'll be saying what could have been instead of what was in regards to his career.
I think you go with Wentz, but i get the sense 20 years from now we'll be saying what could have been instead of what was in regards to his career.
Has nothing to do with being offended. He can get more through either the franchise tag route or through free agency. Why settle for an incentive, injury clause deal when you dont have to? Its not like his numbers are bad - see my post above. Quite the opposite.
Foles would be very challenged to even reach that threshold
Foles would be very challenged to even reach that threshold
This is mostly true. I do think Hostetler was better, but I also think people are selling Foles short. He is the equivalent of the AAAA baseball player. To good for a backup, but not quite good enough to hitch your horse to. Probably better than Bortles and Dalton. I still think better than Keenum. Probably at about Stafford/Cousins level or a smidge under.
I dont think he's as good as Stafford or Cousins. I know Stafford had a down year, but he lost every one of his receivers to free agency (Ebron), injury or trade (Tate). Even his receiving running backs got hurt.
I'd go with Wentz.
Every time I watch Foles, I walk away unimpressed with his physical abilities. When he throws the ball downfield it seems to travel a mile in the air and somehow his receivers come down with it. There's no denying he's gotten the job done in his limited action with the Eagles.
This game will be a different animal than anything he's seen over the past two season of work. This isn't Philly, or a neutral field in the super bowl. This isn't Chicago with a 2nd year qb who couldn't take advantage of the Eagles glaring holes. Heck this isn't even LA where half the stadium was Eagles fans. This, in my opinion, right now is the toughest place to play in football with a team that is loaded top to bottom and hungry to avenge the embarrassment of last season. This game will say a lot about Foles. He may need to keep pace in a shootout, we'll see.
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On paper, it makes sense to sign Wentz to an incentive laden, injury clause contract. Would he sign that though? Would he be offended by it? I'd guess no, he doesn't seem like that sort of person. But you never know.
I think you go with Wentz, but i get the sense 20 years from now we'll be saying what could have been instead of what was in regards to his career.
Has nothing to do with being offended. He can get more through either the franchise tag route or through free agency. Why settle for an incentive, injury clause deal when you dont have to? Its not like his numbers are bad - see my post above. Quite the opposite.
How do you know he won't need to settle for a deal like that? Because his numbers are solid? That proofs my point. We all know he is really good and really young. We also know he plays recklessly and has had 2 significant injuries in 2 years.
Better the player, higher the pay. Bigger the deal, better the chance a guy whose battled injuries will have some language put in his contract that addresses those concerns.
-half of BBI
Yeah, he was going to retire because his career was in the toilet (and I thought I read he had some personal issues too). Now, some team out there will give him at a minimum Case Keenum money, probably more. I doubt he walks away from that.
Giant Grit - I dont know what to tell you. He just isnt in a position where he has to take an incentive laden deal. He's accomplished plenty in his first three seasons that 15-20 teams would give him Jimmy G. money in a heartbeat if he hit the open market.
Wentz is only cost controlled for next year. They have to pick up his option for 2020, which is 30 million—which kind of means they probably will start working on a long term deal with him now.
From what I read, if Foles opts out, they can then slap the tag on him. The problem from the Eagles standpoint is you tie up 25mm that you can you to extend other guys and pick someone up in free agency. it probably wont happen, but they can slap the tag on him. (again, based on what I read)
However, I suspect that the Eagles believe that Wentz is still the better quarterback, and that it is much less likely that committing to him will blow up in their faces than if they were to commit to Foles.
But either way, it just won't be feasible for them to keep both QBs next year - and no matter what decision they make, it will be second-guessed until the end of time if their success doesn't continue.
Hard to call it a poor decision when Wentz did in fact get hurt again late this season and Foles has stepped in and helped them go 5-1 since... playing in this weekend's Divisional Round.
The name of this game after all is to chase championships and go on playoff runs. What's a 2nd round pick (that they could have gotten for Foles last year) relative to this?
Expensive insurance policy but Wentz is still under his rookie deal.
I'd tag Foles, both guys get along and there doesn't seem to be an ego issue.
Easily Wentz.
Giant QB Controversy - go with declining veteran for a final swan song contract year because cap hit and alternatives are actually worse outcomes; or go with trainwreck 2nd year guy who cannot even drive to MetLife stadium w/o being arrested.
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and play Wentz through 2019 before deciding on whether to give him the new contract. It's a waste to for them to have Foles walk out the door with no compensation, but that's the poor position the Eagles put themselves in by not trading him last year when they had the chance.
Hard to call it a poor decision when Wentz did in fact get hurt again late this season and Foles has stepped in and helped them go 5-1 since... playing in this weekend's Divisional Round.
The name of this game after all is to chase championships and go on playoff runs. What's a 2nd round pick (that they could have gotten for Foles last year) relative to this?
Poor position* - didn't say anything about decision. Talking specifically about getting compensation for Foles (without the benefit of hindsight). If the Eagles win another championship this year this won't even be a debate, they'll retain Foles.
That being said, I'm not too sure that his skills will translate to a different offense. I think he's the perfect fit for what Doug Peterson wants to do.