Landon Collins

what he will sign for.

We certainly will have a hard time finding a better player at the position.

to utilize his skills to best serve the team. If he's in coverage all the time then that's not using him in the best way possible. Make him rush the passer more, play the run more. Use somebody else with some coverage skills back there. Of course, they might do that if they had someone else with coverage skills.

In comment 14257185 ron mexico said:

Quote:

what he will sign for. We certainly will have a hard time finding a better player at the position.

I'd say it's almost certainly going to be a drop off in talent if they don't re-sign him.

But the potential to add some draft capital to next year's draft will be much more intriguing if they don't like the QBs in this draft. Tua potentially coming out next year makes having an extra third rounder potentially a good thing to have...

In today's NFL you need to rush the passer and stop the pass. He stops the run so he is effective about 40% of the plays. Not worth it imo.

Plus, I think he is a guy that will benefit from being surrounded by talent as opposed to the guy in a defense that will make those around him better.

Long story short, we can use our resources better than signing him to a long term big money deal. I like him but ws havd had some really shitty defenses during his tenure here.

Not out in coverage. And I’m sure that will be the topic of conversation during negotiations as well, for both sides.

In comment 14257194 Gman11 said:

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to utilize his skills to best serve the team. If he's in coverage all the time then that's not using him in the best way possible. Make him rush the passer more, play the run more. Use somebody else with some coverage skills back there. Of course, they might do that if they had someone else with coverage skills.

Beat me to it, this exactly.

candidate for the franchise tag and then re-sign mid or late season if his play and health are back to usual

but I read or heard somewhere that he doesn't want to do it.

If that gets into the stupid range wish him well.

In comment 14257200 81_Great_Dane said:

Quote:

but I read or heard somewhere that he doesn't want to do it.

After his rookie year, he was approached about it (I think by Spags) and was very adamant about being a safety. He dropped some weight and had his best year by far.

In comment 14257203 robbieballs2003 said:

Quote:

In comment 14257200 81_Great_Dane said: Quote: but I read or heard somewhere that he doesn't want to do it. After his rookie year, he was approached about it (I think by Spags) and was very adamant about being a safety. He dropped some weight and had his best year by far.

I could see Landon Collins in a "moneybacker" role in Bettcher's system Alabama Drone Bucannon

when Spags approached him about playing LB.
Link - ( New Window )

In comment 14257208 Big_Pete said:

Quote:

In comment 14257203 robbieballs2003 said: Quote: In comment 14257200 81_Great_Dane said: Quote: but I read or heard somewhere that he doesn't want to do it. After his rookie year, he was approached about it (I think by Spags) and was very adamant about being a safety. He dropped some weight and had his best year by far. I could see Landon Collins in a "moneybacker" role in Bettcher's system Alabama Drone Bucannon

typo

Ala Deone Bucannon

About 2020 comp picks when discussing Landon Collins. If the Giants sign more qualified free agents that they lose, them there are no comp picks for that year.

In comment 14257209 robbieballs2003 said:

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when Spags approached him about playing LB. Link - ( New Window )

I get your point, but this is not Spags system and the NFL is very different these days.

It's up to the defensive coaches
Gman11 : 3:34 pm : link : reply
to utilize his skills to best serve the team. If he's in coverage all the time then that's not using him in the best way possible. Make him rush the passer more, play the run more. Use somebody else with some coverage skills back there. Of course, they might do that if they had someone else with coverage skills.

You want to pay him top SS money, but want him to be a linebacker....

I'd rather pay big money on a linebacker....

The top strong safeties average about 12M, which is the cost of franchising him...I wouldn't pay it......get somebody who can cover....

In comment 14257214 Big_Pete said:

Quote:

In comment 14257209 robbieballs2003 said: Quote: when Spags approached him about playing LB. Link - ( New Window ) I get your point, but this is not Spags system and the NFL is very different these days.

Did 2018 not happen? Did Collins play LB last year? Do you think he is going to sign with a team where they want him to play a position he doesn't want to play? This could have happened this year so not sure what you are saying.

Lamarcus Joyner
Earl Thomas
Tyrann Mathieu
Landon Collins

Guess you could include these guys as well...
Adrian Amos
Ha Ha Clinton-Dix
Tre Boston

In comment 14257226 rasbutant said:

Quote:

Lamarcus Joyner Earl Thomas Tyrann Mathieu Landon Collins Guess you could include these guys as well... Adrian Amos Ha Ha Clinton-Dix Tre Boston

Joyner is 4 years older, Thomas, 5, soon to be 6, Mathieu, 3..You decide. :)

In comment 14257199 ryanmkeane said:

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candidate for the franchise tag and then re-sign mid or late season if his play and health are back to usual

This

He is the best at sniffing and sniffing them out.

He can’t cover one on one, so I see why people get frustrated with him. But he is still a damn good safety

Definite resign imo

In comment 14257231 Big Blue '56 said:

Quote:

In comment 14257199 ryanmkeane said: Quote: candidate for the franchise tag and then re-sign mid or late season if his play and health are back to usual This

Does that equate to a salary of the top 5 (or is it 10?) FREE Safeties or just of Safeties in general?

In comment 14257230 Big Blue '56 said:

Quote:

In comment 14257226 rasbutant said: Quote: Lamarcus Joyner Earl Thomas Tyrann Mathieu Landon Collins Guess you could include these guys as well... Adrian Amos Ha Ha Clinton-Dix Tre Boston Joyner is 4 years older, Thomas, 5, soon to be 6, Mathieu, 3..You decide. :)

If we can get Honey Badger for what he signed for in Houston, I'd love to pair him with LC.

Granted my impression of him might be out of date.

and I don't think he should be paid as such. Not when this defense has so many other holes to fill.

Outside of 1 forced fumble, he didn't make any impact plays this year. No interceptions. No sacks. The further we get from his breakout year in 2016, the more he looks like a one hit wonder.

Michael Thomas made more plays than he did.

I like Collins. He seems like a good guy and he plays through his injuries every season, but he's just not worth what he'll command. He's also made comments already that he's sick of losing so I'm sure he's going to listen to other offers.

In comment 14257230 Big Blue '56 said:

Quote:

In comment 14257226 rasbutant said: Quote: Lamarcus Joyner Earl Thomas Tyrann Mathieu Landon Collins Guess you could include these guys as well... Adrian Amos Ha Ha Clinton-Dix Tre Boston Joyner is 4 years older, Thomas, 5, soon to be 6, Mathieu, 3..You decide. :)

Oh, my pick would be Collins. Age, leadership, hate to lose attitude, plus his play on the field. I don't really no Amos, but he sounds like someone i would be interested in though. Boston sounds like he would be a great fit next to Collins, but i don't see how you allocate FA money both.

and I don't think that comparison is very far off.

That Titans games shewed how scary soft our run D is without him. Just have to scheme this D better around his man coverage liability.

how dynamic and dominant he was in 2016 with solid talent around him.

In comment 14257200 81_Great_Dane said:

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but I read or heard somewhere that he doesn't want to do it.

More contact with better dudes, better chance of shortening his career.

aka, forced to engage and shed OL blocks.

is a FA this offseason.

In comment 14257264 JonC said:

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how dynamic and dominant he was in 2016 with solid talent around him.

How quickly? That was 3 seasons ago. He had one great season 3 years ago out of 4. So did Richburg. Should we have resigned him for big money?

Yes, Collins was an animal that year. He was amazing but he isn't the same player. As someone mentioned earlier, the game has changed. He is a liability in coverage. A move to LB will not help. He'll gain weight and be even slower. He cannot cover TEs and RBs now.

You are right about one thing. He is much better when surrounded by talent. The problem is that isnt us. We would be paying him to make players around him better. No thanks. He shouldn't be the top guy on your D or paid like one. That is why I said earlier if he goes to a good defensd with a good supporting cast then that is when you'll see him blossom.

I cannot get that one game out of my head this year either when he missed so many tackles. It was embarrassing.

In comment 14257274 robbieballs2003 said:

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I cannot get that one game out of my head this year either when he missed so many tackles. It was embarrassing.

What game was that? I heard on a podcast from someone during the year, one of the beat writers that is in the lockerroom pretty much every week, that Collin's shoulder was really jacked up this season. To the point where he couldn't even lift it to get his jersey off after a game.

I have to assume that his injury played a part in that, because he's usually a pretty sure tackler.

In spite of what I might think, it seems pretty likely that the Giants will attempt to keep him.

.

In comment 14257274 robbieballs2003 said:

Quote:

In comment 14257264 JonC said: Quote: how dynamic and dominant he was in 2016 with solid talent around him. How quickly? That was 3 seasons ago. He had one great season 3 years ago out of 4. So did Richburg. Should we have resigned him for big money? Yes, Collins was an animal that year. He was amazing but he isn't the same player. As someone mentioned earlier, the game has changed. He is a liability in coverage. A move to LB will not help. He'll gain weight and be even slower. He cannot cover TEs and RBs now. You are right about one thing. He is much better when surrounded by talent. The problem is that isnt us. We would be paying him to make players around him better. No thanks. He shouldn't be the top guy on your D or paid like one. That is why I said earlier if he goes to a good defensd with a good supporting cast then that is when you'll see him blossom. I cannot get that one game out of my head this year either when he missed so many tackles. It was embarrassing.

He just turned 24. He's primed for this second pro contract and isn't even in his prime yet. He flashed in the two seasons since his monster year, but when he tries to do too much it often backfires on him.

If you want to build talent, you keep him and pay him a number you're ok with. If you're off the school of thought where $10-12M is too much for a top notch SS, you could make an argument to trade him.

He can adapt, but they've been asking him to do too much at SS. Part of the problem is the lack of talent in the backend, he winds up trying to cover up blown assignments by the the other safety and corners.

He hasn't played well with garbage at FS. It's asking too much. But you don't need an all pro next to him, just someone who is competent.

He has shown he can be a difference maker. I would re-sign him.

Again, I am not writing him off. I like him. But, imo, where we are at and where he is at is not a match. He should be a key piece on a good defense. Our defense is garbage and we need a ton of pieces. We need to allocate our resources more in the front 7 or even at corner. Safety doesn't have the impact without those other pieces. If Collins is brought back for a modest salary then great. But if he wants to get paid I think we are better off using that money elsewhere.

And the game was against Carolina earlier in the year. Missed tackle after missed tackle. He's throwing shoulders around instead of wrapping up.
Link - ( New Window )

will the Giants be able to find a better player at his position.

The answer to that in the short term is almost certainly no.

But the Giants need to take a long term look at this. They arent a win now team. They need to get out of the business of overpaying players. Collins is not a great player. He's good but he has significant flaws. He is going to get too much money for what he's worth. The Giants current defense can't hide his flaws. And likely wont be able to for at least a year or two.

It's a tough decision but the correct one in my opinion is to let him walk unless he comes back on a team friendly deal. Collins isn't enough of a difference maker to pay him big money on a rebuilding team.

I just don’t think you can redeploy the cap room you save on Landon to buy another player. In the last few seasons, very few talented players without blemishes have hit FA. An undertalented team like the Giants can’t abandon players To the open market without an identified and secured alternative.

LBs that can defend pass in some way, shape or form (not counting rush the passer that's different) plus two safeties that can get to the ball, take great angles and hit hard.


Hehehe. One can dream.

All D draft y'all .

be a liability in coverage, even if the Giants keep him.

Too many "ifs" associated with Collins. If he has a good free safety next to him, if he has a good defensive line, if he has this, if he has that.

Great players don't have that many ifs associated with them.

He can't cover. That's a problem in todays NFL. Why would I want to pay big money for a guy who can't cover?

need to identify an alternative immediately?

This is a total rebuild that we have here. The sooner everyone realizes that the better. The Giants are going to suck with or without Landon Collins next year.

The Giants decision making process this off-season needs to be all long term. If they make any move thinking they can win in 2018, they've already failed.

I am not dead set against bringing him back, but I think he will be paid a lot more than he's worth to the Giants.

In comment 14257231 Big Blue '56 said:

Quote:

In comment 14257199 ryanmkeane said: Quote: candidate for the franchise tag and then re-sign mid or late season if his play and health are back to usual This

What does back to usual mean? He was a very good player 1 season out of 4.

In comment 14257327 cosmicj said:

Quote:

I just don’t think you can redeploy the cap room you save on Landon to buy another player. In the last few seasons, very few talented players without blemishes have hit FA. An undertalented team like the Giants can’t abandon players To the open market without an identified and secured alternative.

I'm not looking for flawless players. I'm looking at the best way to build a defense and that occurs with having a strong front seven. Your secondary doesn't mean shit without the guys up front. I have played corner and safety at high levels. I would never think that I could do my job effectively if I couldn't count on the guys in front of me to do their job.

We have flaws everywhere. I am not looking to replace Collins or get some stud. In fact I have stated I would probably sit out the first wave of FA and spend our money smartly by filling multiple needs instead od just trying to hit the homerun in FA.

Another reason people really like Collins is because the people in front of him haven't been getting the job done. You don't really want your secondary players leading your team in tackles. Yes, there are instances and calls where it is okay for your safety to be the first guy there but over the course of a whole season that isn't what any DC draws up. It also affects his ability to cover because he doesn't trust his teammates to make the play in front of him so he has "run" in his mind when it should be "pass". If he is constantly worried about the run then he's too easy to take advantage of in the pass game.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ggocxzjv4O0

He's not a linebacker but just the very best "box" safety in the NFL. Spags figured that out when Collins made ALL PRO.

#1 need on this team is an outstanding pass rush, #2 and #2A are a top-tier free safety and a corner. (Riley & BW Webb are not the answers ).

is insane. Sanders played many years very well. Collins has played at that level exactly one time out of 4.

But he had more than 1 really good season.

The only thing that held Sanders back were his injury issues. His flaws did not show up nearly as much as Collins do.

Sanders was a force for more than 1 year

I just hope, for the sake of this team that today's front three = Snacks Harrison (run stopping wise). - SOON.

Who else would you want to sign? As long as there aren’t any medical or locker room issues, and I don’t think there are, this player, at this position in this market is perfect for the FT. I don’t love Collins but he’s a good player and there’s way too many other areas for concern on the team. The FT is essentially punting for the team with the added value that Collins is going to want to put good plays on tape and hopefully get a long term deal done with Big Blue. Finally, there’s no one else on the team that’s competing for the FT. Not really any downside for the Giants.

In comment 14257353 Manny in CA said:

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ggocxzjv4O0 He's not a linebacker but just the very best "box" safety in the NFL. Spags figured that out when Collins made ALL PRO. #1 need on this team is an outstanding pass rush, #2 and #2A are a top-tier free safety and a corner. (Riley & BW Webb are not the answers ).

I remember at one point in 2016 Collins lead the team in tackles, interceptions, and sacks.

The league has adjusted to him, though.

I'd love to have him back but not at a huge amount of money. I used to think someone would pay him a monster contract (if not the Giants), but I'm not sure anymore. I think the book on him is out, so he might actually come at a reasonable price.

In comment 14257226 rasbutant said:

Quote:

Lamarcus Joyner Earl Thomas Tyrann Mathieu Landon Collins Guess you could include these guys as well... Adrian Amos Ha Ha Clinton-Dix Tre Boston Give me Collins and then Joyner in that order

Cover a WR. I don’t have a problem with a franchise deal to see how he has is recovered, but he is one player who talks like a team player but can’t elevate the team play. True that Michael Thomas made more plays this year.

the team is back to where they were when they trade up to get him. Before Collins they had a bunch of miscasts and misfits trying to be NFL safeties.

In comment 14257555 Beer Man said:

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the team is back to where they were when they trade up to get him. Before Collins they had a bunch of miscasts and misfits trying to be NFL safeties.

Have you seen where the Giants have ranked defensively with him on the team? Safety is just not a position that changes a team unless the other pieces are in place. He isn't making an offense change their plays or their protections. Nobody cares where he is lined up unless they get him one on one against anybody. He doesn't change anything for us being on the field.

RE: RE: How quickly they forget
JonC : 4:43 pm : link : reply

He just turned 24. He's primed for this second pro contract and isn't even in his prime yet. He flashed in the two seasons since his monster year, but when he tries to do too much it often backfires on him.

If you want to build talent, you keep him and pay him a number you're ok with. If you're off the school of thought where $10-12M is too much for a top notch SS, you could make an argument to trade him.

But,
Doomster : 10:13 pm : link : reply
RE: RE: How quickly they forget
JonC : 4:43 pm : link : reply

He just turned 24. He's primed for this second pro contract and isn't even in his prime yet. He flashed in the two seasons since his monster year, but when he tries to do too much it often backfires on him.

If you want to build talent, you keep him and pay him a number you're ok with. If you're off the school of thought where $10-12M is too much for a top notch SS, you could make an argument to trade him.




you can't trade him because he is an UFA!!!!!!!!

The guy had one good year....and he only plays better when surrounded by talent? What the hell does that say?

He has been injured the last two seasons.....

According to Eric, in his podcast, Collins made a comment about being sick of losing, and might be looking elsewhere in FAcy.....

That's why DG tried to trade him during the season......but he already gave Snacks away, and nobody came with a serious offer.....but right now, who wouldn't have taken a 3rd or 4th round pick if he does leave in FAcy?

Collins averaged over 100 tackles per season with a high rate of solo tackles. That makes him better than most of the DBs and LBs on the team. Go watch Riley, Jenkins and Webb miss tackles. Collins is not supposed to be a ball hawk or shut down cover guy. The SS role is to make tackles and take pressure off the LB. This team was so bad at tackling WRs and RBs catching the ball short of the sticks on 3rd down with short routes that it was pathetic.

If you are not OK paying Collins around $10-$11M, then ask yourself if you are OK with paying older vets OV $17M, Jenkins $14M, Ogletree $10M or Martin $5M? Giants have screwed up the cap so badly that average to subpar players are getting top of the market guaranteed contracts for little to no production.

Collins is going to be in his prime for another couple of years and he is a leader on the team.

We all know his limitations in coverage but the Titans game was a glaring example of what we were missing without him against the run. If he doesn't improve in coverage next year we can let him walk.

I kind of hope they tag him AND add a coverage safety next to him. Not sure how possible that is with the cap, though.

In comment 14257226 rasbutant said:

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Lamarcus Joyner Earl Thomas Tyrann Mathieu Landon Collins Guess you could include these guys as well... Adrian Amos Ha Ha Clinton-Dix Tre Boston

Give me Adrian Amos instead. I wanted Amos in the draft out of State Penn years ago.

Vs the Skins, Dix didn't even make an Ole! effort to tackle him. He didn't even wave...

In comment 14257231 Big Blue '56 said:

Quote:

In comment 14257199 ryanmkeane said: Quote: candidate for the franchise tag and then re-sign mid or late season if his play and health are back to usual This

But what is usual? His rookie year he was out of position. He came back in 2016 as a SS and had as good a year as you can have and then had the next 2 seasons end early with injury, but both were merely OK. Who's to say 2016 is "usual" for him? Maybe it's the outlier.

I really like him and would love to have him back. But, I don't want to grossly overpay to try to find out the player he really is. Givent that it is highly unlikely they can sign hjm for a reasonable deal, I would be open to letting him walk, especially given 2 factors. One, we have no idea who will be opposite him. Unless there is a significant upgrade at FS, he will not truly thrive at SS. Two, he is coming off shoulder surgery, which makes me very wary, especially for a guy whose game is physical.

Tough, bright kid from a good program who can really play a physical form of defense. Lots of throwback qualities to his play.

But it’s not the ‘80s or the SEC. The NFL is morphing into the Big 12/PAC 12. Which is very sad because I’m attracted to his physical play, too.

However, you have to be able to cover as a safety in today’s game. Collins can’t be trusted to do that on a reliable basis. So what’s his value? A few good, big hits here and there. But a potential liability on every passing down. Sorry, but there is limited benefit.

He has to go and we need a more reliable player with skills that fit today’s game.

The guy is a top tier safety. He played next to a pile of hot trash. I know the guys from big blue banter love to say that Riley was always int be right spot. Wonderful he couldn’t make a tackle or a play the entire year. Next, we had zero pass rush and bad corner play. How do you expect Collins to perform? Reading this thread makes me want to stay off Bbi until April. Then I see a bob sanders comparison. Comparing those 2 is like comparing Maurice Jones Drew and Brandon Jacobs.

I'll never forgive him for dropping the Brady interception to seal the game, but any replacement will be a downgrade.

In comment 14257313 robbieballs2003 said:

Quote:

Again, I am not writing him off. I like him. But, imo, where we are at and where he is at is not a match. He should be a key piece on a good defense. Our defense is garbage and we need a ton of pieces. We need to allocate our resources more in the front 7 or even at corner. Safety doesn't have the impact without those other pieces. If Collins is brought back for a modest salary then great. But if he wants to get paid I think we are better off using that money elsewhere. And the game was against Carolina earlier in the year. Missed tackle after missed tackle. He's throwing shoulders around instead of wrapping up. Link - ( New Window )

If the perspective is the same as yours, I get it, and have no problem moving along (trying to trade him first) if his camp's price target doesn't work for NYG. I've touted $10-12M as plenty, but ultimately the open market will probably deliver more cash to him, if he holds firm for it.

But, some of the perspective in this thread on how talented he is when utilized correctly and healthy is off target. He's a foundational piece. At 24, he's in the right age range to keep in blue, provided the numbers can be agreed upon.

The safety market has stalled over the years and most NFL execs are aware of what type of league this is. I don't think he's a lock to set the bar and there may be a depressed market for his skillset for the reasons mentioned in this thread. If we're running an attacking front 7, that leaves us exposed in the running game, it may not be as cut and dry as some think in regards to what we need at SS. He plays downhill extremely well and that applies as a blitzer as well. He also has a nose for the football - he's a playmaker.

The NFL is changing to where it's next to impossible to shut down the top offenses, the best strategy may be to play bend-dont-break, clamp down in the redzone and create drive ending plays in the form of sacks, TFLs, fumbles and interceptions. Chunk plays are okay if you follow up with a drive killer. Collins fits that philosophy. It's not as simple as "his weakness is in coverage and this is a pass league".

In comment 14257915 Tuckrule said:

Quote:

The guy is a top tier safety. He played next to a pile of hot trash.

You sound like dep trying to defend Eli Manning.

I would sign Tre Boston to play FS .
When Collins had his best year A guy named Snacks had a
career year was head and toe above any DT in tackles
Should look for another CB as well was a big difference when we had DRC in the slot .