He's almost assuredly being signed to play 3B at this money and he probably deserves to over every other candidate based on what he did last year. Does this push McNeil to LF with Nimmo in CF? Does this spell the end for Frazier even if we eat some of his contract?
@Timbritten
Mets envision Lowrie playing every day, with his flexibility allowing them some better matchups elsewhere on the diamond. Lowrie's good from both sides of the plate, and he can also back up Rosario at SS.
Jared Diamond
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@jareddiamond
A word about Jed Lowrie: Successful baseball teams don't worry about positional "fit" nearly as much as you might think. They seek out the best available talent and try to amass as much of it as possible and then figure out how to deploy it. Just look at the '17 and '18 Dodgers.
4m
I can't say I'm happy with this move, given that I want to see
McNeil play. One thing is clear. Frazier is on his way out.
Sounded like they were already gearing up for McNeil to start out as a super sub and that included LF/RF. You can easily shift Nimmo to CF, play McNeil in a corner, and still have two gold glove caliber players backing them all up on the bench.
Mind boggling they are not assuring ABs for McNeil
this is almost like a much cheaper version of signing Marwin. He hasn't played any SS the last couple years and it looks like he was deteriorating there defensively, but as a backup it doesn't really matter that much. Very interesting move.
Does make you wonder if there's another move coming because they can't possibly have enough at bats for all these guys.
Ehalt
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@MattEhalt
Mets also are willing to use McNeil in the outfield so there could be at-bats there if Alonso thrives and Mets use Frazier/Lowrie as the infielders.
RE: wow weird/surprising move but I've always liked lowrie
this is almost like a much cheaper version of signing Marwin. He hasn't played any SS the last couple years and it looks like he was deteriorating there defensively, but as a backup it doesn't really matter that much. Very interesting move.
Does make you wonder if there's another move coming because they can't possibly have enough at bats for all these guys.
and I do see it. He offers IF versatility at 3 positions similar to Marwin but he's honestly a better hitter than him. He can't play the OF like M Gone can but if this move pushes McNeil to the OF making him a super sub there as well, it effectively does add more options all over just like MGone would have.
would actually take care of a lot of the duplication. Not sure if he'd be better in CF than Nimmo or Conforto, but all 3 of them are athletic enough that it shouldn't kill you.
Then you've got Lowrie + Frazier + Davis + Alonso filling 3b/1b. With both Davis & Alonso having options left I believe.
Dom Smith is definitely running out of places to play (other than Cuse).
Jared Diamond
✔
@jareddiamond
A word about Jed Lowrie: Successful baseball teams don't worry about positional "fit" nearly as much as you might think. They seek out the best available talent and try to amass as much of it as possible and then figure out how to deploy it. Just look at the '17 and '18 Dodgers.
4m
Lol, yeah. That and a $250 million payroll.
Dumb statement.
looks pretty close - probably swap in Frazier or Davis at 1b to start
with Alonso at AAA. Frazier seems to be the better defender than Lowrie at 3b, so maybe Lowrie plays some 1st? Would make sense to get him time there so he can platoon with anyone in the IF.
@JimBowdenGM
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#Mets view Lowrie as their 2nd hole hitterwill play around INF. If Alonso struggles,Frazier plays 1st, Lowrie plays 3rd; Cano days off plays 2nd; Rosario days off plays SS; McNeil becomes extra OF.Mets eliminating rosters ifsone by oneadded lineup length and better balance.
it's an interesting signing and he's a good player
still think the money may have been better spent on Robertson or Miller, but the depth of position players is impressive. Only concern is there's theoretically a lot riding on Callaway's roster usage, but hopefully the FO will be helping him with that.
Jared Diamond
✔
@jareddiamond
A word about Jed Lowrie: Successful baseball teams don't worry about positional "fit" nearly as much as you might think. They seek out the best available talent and try to amass as much of it as possible and then figure out how to deploy it. Just look at the '17 and '18 Dodgers.
4m
Lol, yeah. That and a $250 million payroll.
Dumb statement.
I mean..Mets should have a $200M+ payroll so it's not that dumb..
Matt Ehalt
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@MattEhalt
Hard to say anything but positive things about this deal. Mets are a better team and addressed a weakness while protecting themselves in case McNeil regresses, Frazier struggles or Alonso doesn't hit the ground running.
Matt Ehalt
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@MattEhalt
Hard to say anything but positive things about this deal. Mets are a better team and addressed a weakness while protecting themselves in case McNeil regresses, Frazier struggles or Alonso doesn't hit the ground running.
Yeah to be clear this deal is fine .it just doesn't absolve them of the ridiculousness that is their lack of spending on premier free agents.
Only thing that's left is to shed Frazier, Lagares, and Vargas...
Lowrie has really been a better hitter, and especially 2 hitter than Pollock too.
Marwin is 5 years younger than Lowrie though.
Sure but is he "that good"? Looks like a guy that had one outlier offensive year and a hot half last year. I like him and he offers versatility but this basically gave us the same thing with more offense. If Cespedes returns half way into the season, MGone was likely going to get benched anyway. Lowrie was worth more than Nimmo last year. And he's coming off back to back amazing seasons. Some guys put it together later in their careers and that seems to be the case for Lowrie.
I don't like McNeil being blocked by Lowrie and Cano.
But I do see the logic in trying to assemble a whole bunch of guys who can play, have competition, keep the best guys and get rid of the other guys, one way or another.
Also: Don't underestimate the importance of having a solid AAA club. It's important to the development of the young guys that they be in a winning environment;
it's important to the new Syracuse Mets affiliate. Having a competitive team matters to the Syracuse fans and the local management. New affiliate, new relationship, make nice with them. Part of the point of moving the Mets' farm teams to Binghamton and Syracuse is to build out the fan base;
and the AAA squad is depth for the big league squad. So if this forces some decent guys down to the minors, or gives the Mets the luxury of keeping guys in AAA a little longer, that works for them too.
Then Davis, Dom, Rivera, Alonso, and maybe even Guillorme or Cecchini competing for the final 1 or 2 spots. No issue with any of these guys having to earn their spot on the roster. Don't love the idea of Mcneil potentially getting lost in the shuffle.
and based on what the beats are reporting they are going to shift him to the OF predominantly which I really don't hate, at least for now. If injuries hit, or Cespedes returns, maybe he can go back to the IF more later and hopefully Frazier is off the team by then.
Then Davis, Dom, Rivera, Alonso, and maybe even Guillorme or Cecchini competing for the final 1 or 2 spots. No issue with any of these guys having to earn their spot on the roster. Don't love the idea of Mcneil potentially getting lost in the shuffle.
Dilson Herrera still only 24 and might be finally getting healthy. Liriano, Davis, Blanco.. all guys looking to throw down for spots in ST. Im ready!
But as someone mentioned this seems like 20 miller that would have been better served on Robertson due to impact on Mcniel. This shows me that 1) they dont believe in McNeil and 2) and small miniscule hope that Mets were secretly in on Harper are now completely squashed.
I wonder how seriously they're thinking about Mcneil in CF
according to statcast his sprint speed is the same as Conforto, Nimmo is a little faster than both with his top speed actually being the same as Lagares, but he obviously doesn't get great reads relative to his top speed.
But as someone mentioned this seems like 20 miller that would have been better served on Robertson due to impact on Mcniel. This shows me that 1) they dont believe in McNeil and 2) and small miniscule hope that Mets were secretly in on Harper are now completely squashed.
I really don't think people are seeing this move the right way yet. Almost everyone was on board with Marwin Gonzalez, right? Well this gives us the exact same thing, only with more offense. Pushing McNeil to play the OF more gives us more options in the OF and IF the same way MGone would have.
This actually reminds me of the Grandal/Ramos situation. Brody got the better value in Ramos when Grandal pushed his luck. Same thing here again. MGone is asking for the moon and we accomplished the same thing with a better hitter for cheaper.
Sound plan to put McNeil in the outfield. Very Mets-like to weaken defense and play someone out of position.
True but most guys that are above average at 2B/3B can handle LF and they did try him there last year a few times. BVW brought up that McNeil was pretty vocal to play there. Don't see how we are weakening any positions though. Cano is solid at 2B and Lowrie is solid defensively also. Is McNeil going to be any worse than Bruce or an ancient Bautista in a corner OF spot with Nimmo in CF?
Sound plan to put McNeil in the outfield. Very Mets-like to weaken defense and play someone out of position.
True but most guys that are above average at 2B/3B can handle LF and they did try him there last year a few times. BVW brought up that McNeil was pretty vocal to play there. Don't see how we are weakening any positions though. Cano is solid at 2B and Lowrie is solid defensively also. Is McNeil going to be any worse than Bruce or an ancient Bautista in a corner OF spot with Nimmo in CF?
So we have Nimmo and Conforto as the main OF starters. Then Legares, McNeil, Broxton and Davis will share time for the fourth spot? Very sporadic time in the infield? The reality is that they are taking would could very well be their best hitter and burying him.
But as someone mentioned this seems like 20 miller that would have been better served on Robertson due to impact on Mcniel. This shows me that 1) they dont believe in McNeil and 2) and small miniscule hope that Mets were secretly in on Harper are now completely squashed.
McNeil had a breakout year at age 26. It's only sensible to prepare for the possibility he might regress to his career mean. Of course, you hope he turned a corner but it would be foolish to count on that when low-cost option like Lowrie falls into your lap.
Mets were never going to pursue Harper and dish out a 350 million dollar contract.
Plus, both Machado and Harper's contracts are going to wind up being terrible deals down the road.
RE: RE: RE: McNeil...8 games started total in minor league career.
Sound plan to put McNeil in the outfield. Very Mets-like to weaken defense and play someone out of position.
True but most guys that are above average at 2B/3B can handle LF and they did try him there last year a few times. BVW brought up that McNeil was pretty vocal to play there. Don't see how we are weakening any positions though. Cano is solid at 2B and Lowrie is solid defensively also. Is McNeil going to be any worse than Bruce or an ancient Bautista in a corner OF spot with Nimmo in CF?
So we have Nimmo and Conforto as the main OF starters. Then Legares, McNeil, Broxton and Davis will share time for the fourth spot? Very sporadic time in the infield? The reality is that they are taking would could very well be their best hitter and burying him.
It seems like another deal is likely in the works.
RE: RE: RE: McNeil...8 games started total in minor league career.
Sound plan to put McNeil in the outfield. Very Mets-like to weaken defense and play someone out of position.
True but most guys that are above average at 2B/3B can handle LF and they did try him there last year a few times. BVW brought up that McNeil was pretty vocal to play there. Don't see how we are weakening any positions though. Cano is solid at 2B and Lowrie is solid defensively also. Is McNeil going to be any worse than Bruce or an ancient Bautista in a corner OF spot with Nimmo in CF?
So we have Nimmo and Conforto as the main OF starters. Then Legares, McNeil, Broxton and Davis will share time for the fourth spot? Very sporadic time in the infield? The reality is that they are taking would could very well be their best hitter and burying him.
I don't think JD Davis has been mentioned in the OF. He's strictly a 3B/1B IMO. If he plays anything else he might actually come out of the pen (Im not joking) I actually could see Davis starting in Syracuse also. I love McNeil but I also love depth and am sick of being decimated by injuries. Let's hope Mickey rotates McNeil in accordingly.
But as someone mentioned this seems like 20 miller that would have been better served on Robertson due to impact on Mcniel. This shows me that 1) they dont believe in McNeil and 2) and small miniscule hope that Mets were secretly in on Harper are now completely squashed.
McNeil had a breakout year at age 26. It's only sensible to prepare for the possibility he might regress to his career mean. Of course, you hope he turned a corner but it would be foolish to count on that when low-cost option like Lowrie falls into your lap.
Mets were never going to pursue Harper and dish out a 350 million dollar contract.
Plus, both Machado and Harper's contracts are going to wind up being terrible deals down the road.
Agree but McNeil has always hit. He only just "broke out" because of a late start and injuries. depth is good though.
But as someone mentioned this seems like 20 miller that would have been better served on Robertson due to impact on Mcniel. This shows me that 1) they dont believe in McNeil and 2) and small miniscule hope that Mets were secretly in on Harper are now completely squashed.
McNeil had a breakout year at age 26. It's only sensible to prepare for the possibility he might regress to his career mean. Of course, you hope he turned a corner but it would be foolish to count on that when low-cost option like Lowrie falls into your lap.
Mets were never going to pursue Harper and dish out a 350 million dollar contract.
Plus, both Machado and Harper's contracts are going to wind up being terrible deals down the road.
McNeil has always been a fantastic hitter. People like to throw out the age 26 thing as a negative insinuating that hes some late bloomer that got lucky. He had injuries that pushed him back a bit. Reality is that its no surprise that he came up to the pros hitting so well.
Tyler Kepner
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@TylerKepner
Love the Jed Lowrie signing for the Mets. The teams to succeed them as NL champs (Cubs and Dodgers) have been defined by their offensive depth. A versatile switch-hitter like Lowrie makes a lot of sense. (Bonus style points for his rare two-earflap helmet.)
Mike Puma
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@NYPost_Mets
Mets haven't forgotten about Jeff McNeil with the Jed Lowrie addition, plan is to play him more in the OF than previously thought.
Mets were never going to pursue Harper and dish out a 350 million dollar contract.
Plus, both Machado and Harper's contracts are going to wind up being terrible deals down the road.
That's exactly how the Mets ownership has conditioned Mets fans to think... I just don't understand the apathy to the situation.
Why wouldn't they dish out that contract? It makes no sense for them NOT to do it. They should be prepared to spend up to the luxury tax threshold every year and beyond some years if the players they add make them better.
Rarely do proven superstar 26 year old position player contracts bust.
Plus, If you are a perenniel playoff team and win 1 world series over the next decade, any amount of money is worth it.
Again..this Lowrie deal is fine...but it doesn't excuse the ridiculousness that is the Mets indifference to Harper/Machado...especially with the Phillies being a realistic landing spot.
RHP Edwin Diaz
2B Robinson Cano
RHP Kyle Dowdy
RHP Jeurys Familia
LHP Hector Santiago
LHP Luis Avilan
C Wilson Ramos
OF Keon Broxton
1B/3B J.D. Davis
2B Dilson Herrera
OF Rajai Davis
OF Gregor Blanco
OF Broxton Lee
LHP Ryan O'Rourke
Mike Puma
✔
@NYPost_Mets
Mets haven't forgotten about Jeff McNeil with the Jed Lowrie addition, plan is to play him more in the OF than previously thought.
@JonHeyman
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Lowrie is a great fit for Mets since they may need help at 1B and 3B and he can also spell Rosario at SS. Switch hitter whose best two offensive seasons were his last two. Mets are having among best winters in baseball.
@JonHeyman
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Lowrie is a great fit for Mets since they may need help at 1B and 3B and he can also spell Rosario at SS. Switch hitter whose best two offensive seasons were his last two. Mets are having among best winters in baseball.
@KeithOlbermann
Politely, Jon: bullshit. Birdie Von Wigglesworth has now spent $30,000,000 a year of #Mets money on two former client middle infielders who will be 35 and 36 years old before the season is a month old - instead of, you know, Harper or Machado. Its madness. https://t.co/WHfLa3pBr1
I think he is going to settle for a short term deal in the 2-3 year range. I wasn't the biggest fan of signing him but for that short term deal it would be a great move especially for a team like Atlanta as opposed to signing Markakis, Adam Jones, or CarGO to a 1 year deal.
It's starting to look like Harper is heading back to the Nationals and Machado will be a Philly which really sucks for all of us.
bench right now is McNeil, Frazier, TJ Rivera, Broxton, and d'Arnaud; Bullpen includes Diaz, Familia, Lugo, and the rotation is awesome if they can remain healthy. The only true weak spot I see is Vargas and maybe left handed reliever.
What do you think we can expect from Rosario this year? Do you see him taking a big step forward? I think there are a few players that fans are discounting that could take big leaps, specifically Rosario and Matz, who I can see really moving the needle. Maybe even a healthy Lagares too.
You are such a fucking asshole and you wonder why people hate you.
35 years olds have a track record of improving year to year /sarcasm
you screamed all off-season for Marwin Gonzalez (who had a 1.8 fWAR last year, but when I said I would have preferred Lowrie was acquired in his 31 year when he had a 3.4 fWAR old vs his 35 year old season you say "he wasn't even good")
You are a clown and you embarrass your silly-ass self on every single thread you are on.
there was zero reason to attack me. none. simply have a fucking conversation without insulting someone.
What do you think we can expect from Rosario this year? Do you see him taking a big step forward? I think there are a few players that fans are discounting that could take big leaps, specifically Rosario and Matz, who I can see really moving the needle. Maybe even a healthy Lagares too.
I mean, he was the number one prospect in baseball for a reason. He has lighting fast hands. I think we finally start to see him calm down towards the end of the year and relax a little bit. He started to hit the final two months. Conservatively I see Rosario hitting league average with potential for more which would make him a 3 fWAR player easy.
I agree with Matz too. I don't anticipate a "Wheeler" type breakout but he will absolutely solidify the "4 spot". He got almost a full season under his belt last year, had an ERA in the 3's... also finished out the year strong. I expect him to become more reliable this year.
You are such a fucking asshole and you wonder why people hate you.
35 years olds have a track record of improving year to year /sarcasm
you screamed all off-season for Marwin Gonzalez (who had a 1.8 fWAR last year, but when I said I would have preferred Lowrie was acquired in his 31 year when he had a 3.4 fWAR old vs his 35 year old season you say "he wasn't even good")
You are a clown and you embarrass your silly-ass self on every single thread you are on.
there was zero reason to attack me. none. simply have a fucking conversation without insulting someone.
is that possible for you?
You are why people don't like Mets fans. You.
I was referring to Olbermann you fucking crazy maniac. lol.
You'd have to be a complete asshole to not like this move. lol
The move is ok...
But Harper or Machado would be better. That's the whole point.
If you start with the precondition that the Mets can not sign Machado or Harper, then their off-season had been pretty good.
If you don't start with that ridiculous precondition, the off-season has been completely half assed and is being overrated.
That's the point KO is making...
It also is a little weird that BVW is bringing in former clients who are at the very end of their careers.
That's fine. There is a contingent of fans that would have never been happy with anything unless we signed Harper or Machado. I get it. But at least admit it acknowledge that nothing barring that would have ever made you happy. There are 29 other teams and everyone wants those two players. They are going to cost 300+ million. It was always a long shot even if money was bottomless.
As for Lowrie, if you don't like this move than you shouldn't have liked Pollock or Marwin Gonzalez or any other addition because he's in that "tier" and just as good.
95 wRC+, 1.7 fWAR season. I was referring to what he did in 2014. Holy overreaction. Lowrie has clearly evolved in to a much better hitter over the last couple of seasons than he was earlier in his year.
bench right now is McNeil, Frazier, TJ Rivera, Broxton, and d'Arnaud; Bullpen includes Diaz, Familia, Lugo, and the rotation is awesome if they can remain healthy. The only true weak spot I see is Vargas and maybe left handed reliever.
Avilan is a good loogy. I think we are set there and he likely has a hand shake deal that he's made the team but they couldn't give him a roster spot until they 60 day Cespedes. Vargas was pretty good after his first 4-5 starts and we traded for some depth there also.
95 wRC+, 1.7 fWAR season. I was referring to what he did in 2014. Holy overreaction. Lowrie has clearly evolved in to a much better hitter over the last couple of seasons than he was earlier in his year.
5 years ago was his best season prior to the last two where he had a 120 wRC+ and a 3.4 fWAR.
bench right now is McNeil, Frazier, TJ Rivera, Broxton, and d'Arnaud; Bullpen includes Diaz, Familia, Lugo, and the rotation is awesome if they can remain healthy. The only true weak spot I see is Vargas and maybe left handed reliever.
Avilan is a good loogy. I think we are set there and he likely has a hand shake deal that he's made the team but they couldn't give him a roster spot until they 60 day Cespedes. Vargas was pretty good after his first 4-5 starts and we traded for some depth there also.
Avilan was a great signing for a minor league deal. I'm a bit surprised that he settled for a minor league deal.
Lowrie in 2014. He's next three years were pretty brutal. Isnt it those years we'd have been acquiring him for? The years he posted a wRC+ of 95, 95, and 76? That's all I meant. I'd surely take this version who's broken out and become an all-star over the last couple of years.
You'd have to be a complete asshole to not like this move. lol
The move is ok...
But Harper or Machado would be better. That's the whole point.
If you start with the precondition that the Mets can not sign Machado or Harper, then their off-season had been pretty good.
If you don't start with that ridiculous precondition, the off-season has been completely half assed and is being overrated.
That's the point KO is making...
It also is a little weird that BVW is bringing in former clients who are at the very end of their careers.
That's fine. There is a contingent of fans that would have never been happy with anything unless we signed Harper or Machado. I get it. But at least admit it acknowledge that nothing barring that would have ever made you happy. There are 29 other teams and everyone wants those two players. They are going to cost 300+ million. It was always a long shot even if money was bottomless.
As for Lowrie, if you don't like this move than you shouldn't have liked Pollock or Marwin Gonzalez or any other addition because he's in that "tier" and just as good.
1) I'm definitely part of that contingent, with one qualificiation: I'm more mad about them not even TRYING to sign Harper/Machado. If they had legitimate, genuine competitive offers on the table and lost, can't fault them.
2) I wanted no part of Pollock, Marwin, or any other 2nd tier addition if it wasn't in addition to Harper/Machado.
This off-season has been fine. Nothing to get excited about. They could be a pretty good team.
..but there is no doubt in my mind that if they expanded the payroll, they would be a better team than they are now...
95 wRC+, 1.7 fWAR season. I was referring to what he did in 2014. Holy overreaction. Lowrie has clearly evolved in to a much better hitter over the last couple of seasons than he was earlier in his year.
5 years ago was his best season prior to the last two where he had a 120 wRC+ and a 3.4 fWAR.
Right but even so 5 years ago he'd have been heading int0 2014 (we are heading into to 2019), so he wouldnt have been good the year we had him.
Moving on off of that. Clearly a huge miscommunication. Still thing Olberman is a clown. lol
You'd have to be a complete asshole to not like this move. lol
The move is ok...
But Harper or Machado would be better. That's the whole point.
If you start with the precondition that the Mets can not sign Machado or Harper, then their off-season had been pretty good.
If you don't start with that ridiculous precondition, the off-season has been completely half assed and is being overrated.
That's the point KO is making...
It also is a little weird that BVW is bringing in former clients who are at the very end of their careers.
That's fine. There is a contingent of fans that would have never been happy with anything unless we signed Harper or Machado. I get it. But at least admit it acknowledge that nothing barring that would have ever made you happy. There are 29 other teams and everyone wants those two players. They are going to cost 300+ million. It was always a long shot even if money was bottomless.
As for Lowrie, if you don't like this move than you shouldn't have liked Pollock or Marwin Gonzalez or any other addition because he's in that "tier" and just as good.
1) I'm definitely part of that contingent, with one qualificiation: I'm more mad about them not even TRYING to sign Harper/Machado. If they had legitimate, genuine competitive offers on the table and lost, can't fault them.
2) I wanted no part of Pollock, Marwin, or any other 2nd tier addition if it wasn't in addition to Harper/Machado.
This off-season has been fine. Nothing to get excited about. They could be a pretty good team.
..but there is no doubt in my mind that if they expanded the payroll, they would be a better team than they are now...
Regardless on whether or not there were any formal sit downs or not, I am 100% positive Brody has spoken to Boras this offseason. Im sure he is well aware of the costs involved in Harper. He probably felt that money could have been better invested in 5-6 players than 1. Just a guess.
RE: Not to keep it going but lets assume we did acquire
Lowrie in 2014. He's next three years were pretty brutal. Isnt it those years we'd have been acquiring him for? The years he posted a wRC+ of 95, 95, and 76? That's all I meant. I'd surely take this version who's broken out and become an all-star over the last couple of years.
In 2014 he got a 1 year / 5m deal with Oakland and was worth 1.7fwar.
2015-2017 he was on a 3 year / 23m deal (4th year option brought it to 29m total) he signed with Houston. Over those 4 years he posted 1.1 fwar, -.7 fwar, and then the last 2 years that totaled almost 9fwar.
So both of his FA deals paid off pretty well. Let's hope this one follows suit.
Lowrie in 2014. He's next three years were pretty brutal. Isnt it those years we'd have been acquiring him for? The years he posted a wRC+ of 95, 95, and 76? That's all I meant. I'd surely take this version who's broken out and become an all-star over the last couple of years.
In 2014 he got a 1 year / 5m deal with Oakland and was worth 1.7fwar.
2015-2017 he was on a 3 year / 23m deal (4th year option brought it to 29m total) he signed with Houston. Over those 4 years he posted 1.1 fwar, -.7 fwar, and then the last 2 years that totaled almost 9fwar.
So both of his FA deals paid off pretty well. Let's hope this one follows suit.
Sure. Im just saying I want this version that broke out now. Not the guy that was heading into 2014. He was ok when he was younger but a lot of that was likely tied to the position he played and defense. He wasn't make all star games before recently. I know he's older, but he's another guy coming off a damn near elite season and he can hit. I stand by this being yet another solid player added of the "MGone, Pollock, ilk. No, its not Harper or Machado but its ok to like adding quality to players to the team IMO in spite of those two.
Mets have a lot of room between current payroll and luxury tax.
The moves they have done and signing Harper/Machado do not have to be mutually exclusive.
I'm still hoping with all hope that getting Harper is still a possibility.
Hey, we wont know until we know... Harper would be amazing.. But I trust Cotts numbers and they got us around 158 million. Give me Ottavino for around 10 and that pushes us to almost 170. Ill be very satisfied with that.
but the point is even as a clown the Mets would be a better team today and almost as importantly in the foreseeable future with Manny Machado than Cano and Lowrie.
Especially if Manny played 3B and it kept McNeil in the lineup at 2B.
Losing Swarzak and Bruce could have happened any number of ways but didn't have to be part of the Cano/Diaz trade.
It's a fair point, especially when you consider the age of Cano and Lowrie vs Machado.
Not sure why two things can't be true:
Olbermann is an asshole
Olbermann is right about this
Mets have a lot of room between current payroll and luxury tax.
The moves they have done and signing Harper/Machado do not have to be mutually exclusive.
I'm still hoping with all hope that getting Harper is still a possibility.
Hey, we wont know until we know... Harper would be amazing.. But I trust Cotts numbers and they got us around 158 million. Give me Ottavino for around 10 and that pushes us to almost 170. Ill be very satisfied with that.
That makes 1 of us ;)
I won't be satisfied until we operate like it's 2004/5 again and are a major player in every big time free agent or trade candidate that hits the market.... And if it means paying luxury tax then so be it.. the Red Sox, Yankees, Dodgers, Cubs, Tigers, Nationals, and Angels have all done it at some point...
And you know what, we don't need to be spending that much every year... But when the team is on the brink, when they are just a couple pieces away, that's the time to stretch and go for it.
The "Mets are going for it", "Mets are in win-now mode" bullshit pisses me off... No they aren't. They are in a "let's put the best team on the field we can without breaking the bank" mode, and they have been that way for years.
but the point is even as a clown the Mets would be a better team today and almost as importantly in the foreseeable future with Manny Machado than Cano and Lowrie.
Especially if Manny played 3B and it kept McNeil in the lineup at 2B.
Losing Swarzak and Bruce could have happened any number of ways but didn't have to be part of the Cano/Diaz trade.
It's a fair point, especially when you consider the age of Cano and Lowrie vs Machado.
Not sure why two things can't be true:
Olbermann is an asshole
Olbermann is right about this
Yes but part of the Cano deal was that they had to take back Bruce/Swarzak (and 20 million) in order to keep the payroll low TO sign Ramos and Lowrie. That's why is comment makes no sense in my mind. He's leaving out important details. If Bruce and Swarzak are still here and we sign Machado instead. Our payroll is much higher now. We also likely had to go out and sign a closer on top of Familia right? He's just shooting off and not thinking anything through.
Mets have a lot of room between current payroll and luxury tax.
The moves they have done and signing Harper/Machado do not have to be mutually exclusive.
I'm still hoping with all hope that getting Harper is still a possibility.
Hey, we wont know until we know... Harper would be amazing.. But I trust Cotts numbers and they got us around 158 million. Give me Ottavino for around 10 and that pushes us to almost 170. Ill be very satisfied with that.
That makes 1 of us ;)
I won't be satisfied until we operate like it's 2004/5 again and are a major player in every big time free agent or trade candidate that hits the market.... And if it means paying luxury tax then so be it.. the Red Sox, Yankees, Dodgers, Cubs, Tigers, Nationals, and Angels have all done it at some point...
And you know what, we don't need to be spending that much every year... But when the team is on the brink, when they are just a couple pieces away, that's the time to stretch and go for it.
The "Mets are going for it", "Mets are in win-now mode" bullshit pisses me off... No they aren't. They are in a "let's put the best team on the field we can without breaking the bank" mode, and they have been that way for years.
Remember that we went through a long rebuild for a reason and that many of our top players arent making a lot of money yet. Thats a big part of it. Syndergaard, deGrom, Wheeler, Nimmo, Conforto, etc. are going to cost a fortune when they are free agents. If we had signed them all to big deals early and the roster was the same but our payroll was 220 million would you be happy then? Just be happy we have a bunch of cost controllable talent in starting roles. That's what everyone wants! I want Machado and Harper too but so does everyone.
I also read recently that the Mets actually don't bring in what people think they do. Blame it on the Wilpons but the SNY deal actually sucks. They only get 50% of the profits from SNY. I think if you count total operational revenue the Mets came in around 18th or something like that. Ill try to dig it up.
Machado is the best free agent fit to come available at a position of need for the Mets in ages. Maybe since Beltran. And he won't even cost a draft pick.
It's practically a no-brainer. Especially with a new GM looking to make a splash.
It is reasonable to think the Mets could have signed Machado and also unloaded Bruce and Swarzak separately and the payroll wouldn't be much different.
So while I like Lowrie and think, as I mentioned, he adds an additional element to the team and depth, but he doesn't cone without risk.
Machado is the best free agent fit to come available at a position of need for the Mets in ages. Maybe since Beltran. And he won't even cost a draft pick.
It's practically a no-brainer. Especially with a new GM looking to make a splash.
It is reasonable to think the Mets could have signed Machado and also unloaded Bruce and Swarzak separately and the payroll wouldn't be much different.
So while I like Lowrie and think, as I mentioned, he adds an additional element to the team and depth, but he doesn't cone without risk.
And he's not a plan A (for me).
And I don't see anything wrong with that. That's absolutely fine. Harper or Machado would have been my A+ offseason also, especially if we could have slid in more on top of it. But I think both were long shots and it's still ok to like everything else we've done instead. We've now added 5 recent all-stars at positions of needs and strengthened our bench and AAA depth. If you told me you can't have Harper or Machado but Ill give you anything else you want, I probably would have come up with something similar to what we've done to be honest. Im very pleased and I STILL think we add another arm.
Can we be cool again now? Im sorry about the shit I said to you a few weeks ago. Its going to be a long season if we are sniping at each other all year.
On track for HOF careers that they would have to pay down the road the Mets from adding Beltran, Pedro, Delgado, etc...
Didn't stop the Yankees from adding Stanton, the Red Sox from adding Price..
The big market teams operate differently... A $220M payroll for a few years should be doable for the Mets... If not, then sell the team
Is what the Mets did then that much different than what we've done now? Beltran was young and in his prime but Delgado, Wagner, Glavine, and Pedro were good players at the end of their careers, weren't they? Isnt Diaz young and elite and just entering his prime? Lowrie, Familia, Cano, and Ramos are older but all are still playing at a high level, similar to then. I also think our homegrown base far outweighs the 2006-2008 years. This is the best foundation of talent since the mid 80s. It still might not be enough but damnit this team should be fun to watch with relative health IMO.
I know it's a broken record, but Machado or Harper (Machado more for me) shouldn't have been long-shots. They should have been speculated to the Mets all along, it makes so much sense.
I like the off-season for 2019.
Long-term not so sure.
Hinges on how Cano ages and if Diaz maintains/improves.
and that doesn't even consider how Kelenic and Dunn pan out.
If Kelenic becomes Trout it could make this off-season franchise altering. That risk is worth taking if it leads to Mets WS, but otherwise it will be looked at negatively.
On track for HOF careers that they would have to pay down the road the Mets from adding Beltran, Pedro, Delgado, etc...
Didn't stop the Yankees from adding Stanton, the Red Sox from adding Price..
The big market teams operate differently... A $220M payroll for a few years should be doable for the Mets... If not, then sell the team
Is what the Mets did then that much different than what we've done now? Beltran was young and in his prime but Delgado, Wagner, Glavine, and Pedro were good players at the end of their careers, weren't they? Isnt Diaz young and elite and just entering his prime? Lowrie, Familia, Cano, and Ramos are older but all are still playing at a high level, similar to then. I also think our homegrown base far outweighs the 2006-2008 years. This is the best foundation of talent since the mid 80s. It still might not be enough but damnit this team should be fun to watch with relative health IMO.
Yes. They added Carlos Beltran..which was akin to adding Machado or Harper.
That's exactly the difference. Exactly it.
Floyd, Nady, Valentin, LoDuca.. I can see the parallels to today...
But we don't have any position player as good as Beltran, Wright, or Reyes from those teams. Adding Harper or Machado would do that..
On track for HOF careers that they would have to pay down the road the Mets from adding Beltran, Pedro, Delgado, etc...
Didn't stop the Yankees from adding Stanton, the Red Sox from adding Price..
The big market teams operate differently... A $220M payroll for a few years should be doable for the Mets... If not, then sell the team
Is what the Mets did then that much different than what we've done now? Beltran was young and in his prime but Delgado, Wagner, Glavine, and Pedro were good players at the end of their careers, weren't they? Isnt Diaz young and elite and just entering his prime? Lowrie, Familia, Cano, and Ramos are older but all are still playing at a high level, similar to then. I also think our homegrown base far outweighs the 2006-2008 years. This is the best foundation of talent since the mid 80s. It still might not be enough but damnit this team should be fun to watch with relative health IMO.
Yes. They added Carlos Beltran..which was akin to adding Machado or Harper.
That's exactly the difference. Exactly it.
Floyd, Nady, Valentin, LoDuca.. I can see the parallels to today...
But we don't have any position player as good as Beltran, Wright, or Reyes from those teams. Adding Harper or Machado would do that..
Yeah Beltran was a huge player and get but I still think he was a tier lower than when we almost went after Griffey and Arod (which are more like Machado/Harper today) Those were the mega deals of that day.
Like I said, going out and getting a Diaz is similar to also getting a younger elite talent in his prime, not just a bunch of older talent. Ill take this roster over the 2006-2008 ones actually. The only thing hurting this team right now is a bit of uncertainty with how well or how far some of our younger hitters go but that's not a bad thing. These arent scrubs. These are talented young hitters. The lineup looks deep and versatile now.
and get another pitcher. We really need more depth there. My initial reaction was concern with blocking McNeil and not spending the money on pitching, but after more thought, Lowrie is a REALLY underrated player and I'm glad he's in the blue and orange.
Please just go the extra mile and add the pitching depth that we really need.
But I do think we gambled on the wrong bat. I wanted Cespedes as much as the next guy but if he's not on the team right now, I am convinced we ARE in on Harper/Machado. Cespedes is killing us right now.
Facts are facts and we are paying a guy 30 million AAV and he might be back mid season. Let's assume the Mets think he is coming back around then. How is Harper even fitting with Nimmo, Conforto, and everyone else on this roster? Maybe you should say "Oh well, make it work, THIS IS NY" but a team running a 160 million dollar payroll that has extensions they have to work out in the future to keep their pitching likely isnt thinking that way.
Just a guess.
This offseason will very interesting to look at with hindsight
I think there's legitimate argument on both sides.
Right now, I think it's an interesting bet as to whether or not Cano + Lowrie will outproduce Machado over the next couple years. I think the odds are literally 50-50. So is it a better investment to go after Machado and roll the dice long term for a guy who has a lot of value in his defense which could start declining or short term on older players who are still performing? Like I said, I think there's a legitimate argument both ways.
Where I think there's no argument is to be going for it but to be haphazard not making the necessary short term signings for depth in the BP. It's like putting a new roof on a house but not sealing it. Once you've done the heavy lifting, paid for the new roof, and labor to install, why skimp on finishing the job with the cheapest part?
and get another pitcher. We really need more depth there. My initial reaction was concern with blocking McNeil and not spending the money on pitching, but after more thought, Lowrie is a REALLY underrated player and I'm glad he's in the blue and orange.
Please just go the extra mile and add the pitching depth that we really need.
Sign Derek Holland for 2 million to compete with Vargas (loser goes to the pen as the long man). Sign either Ottavino, Allen, or Warren. Somebody like that. Shouldn't cost a ton more.
the Mets from pursuing Machado (at least a part of it), but saying they shouldn't have signed him is pure 20/20 hind sight.
it didn't work out, but he was the best available option at the time. I had no issue with it at the time, seemed like good term based on what the projections were initially that he'd get.
What the Mets should explore having a new GM (as an excuse) is try and work out a settlement with Cespedes and cut him loose if that's possible.
and get another pitcher. We really need more depth there. My initial reaction was concern with blocking McNeil and not spending the money on pitching, but after more thought, Lowrie is a REALLY underrated player and I'm glad he's in the blue and orange.
Please just go the extra mile and add the pitching depth that we really need.
Sign Derek Holland for 2 million to compete with Vargas (loser goes to the pen as the long man). Sign either Ottavino, Allen, or Warren. Somebody like that. Shouldn't cost a ton more.
You're talking about the Holland that was on the Giants last year? I had no idea he was a UFA. He's realllllly underrated (if you're into fantasy baseball, and need to start a lot of pitchers, look to snag him late in your draft).
We are still missing the true superstar..back then we had 3..
I think Conforto and Nimmo are those homegrown superstars or are on the verge of that. I know you mentioned Loduca, Valentin, etc. but give me Cano, Ramos, and Lowrie over those guys. I also think we have potential for a bunch of young breakout guys to add to Nimmo and Conforto. Alonso, JD Davis, Rosario. McNeil all could shatter what we had then depending on how far they go. If Cespedes comes back second half healthy this lineup could be elite. Right now Ill settle for deep and versatile.
and get another pitcher. We really need more depth there. My initial reaction was concern with blocking McNeil and not spending the money on pitching, but after more thought, Lowrie is a REALLY underrated player and I'm glad he's in the blue and orange.
Please just go the extra mile and add the pitching depth that we really need.
Sign Derek Holland for 2 million to compete with Vargas (loser goes to the pen as the long man). Sign either Ottavino, Allen, or Warren. Somebody like that. Shouldn't cost a ton more.
You're talking about the Holland that was on the Giants last year? I had no idea he was a UFA. He's realllllly underrated (if you're into fantasy baseball, and need to start a lot of pitchers, look to snag him late in your draft).
Would LOVE to add him to our team.
Yup. There was a blurb on MLBTR about a week ago BVW was pursuing him. There was a thought he might even settle for a minor league deal but was holding out for a ML contract with somebody. He should! He's a good player. Shouldn't cost much either.
the Mets from pursuing Machado (at least a part of it), but saying they shouldn't have signed him is pure 20/20 hind sight.
it didn't work out, but he was the best available option at the time. I had no issue with it at the time, seemed like good term based on what the projections were initially that he'd get.
What the Mets should explore having a new GM (as an excuse) is try and work out a settlement with Cespedes and cut him loose if that's possible.
This year they will probably end up getting most of his money back through insurance. Maybe next offseason you can flip him for another bad contract (or 2) since he'd only have 1 year left. Or they can do a buyout in the offseason a la Kemp/AGon. But totally agree - we all wanted Cespedes back. Pretty sure there were gofundme's and everything. Just got terrible luck that he all of a sudden became extremely injury prone after being a 550ab guy his whole prior career. Kind of like the Wright contract.
RE: RE: He's going to cost more than $2M though...
the Mets are better now on Jan 10 than they were on Sep 30.
And while it's not the approach I think would have been the easiest to improve, if it leads to results on the field I don't care.
I'll sacrifice the future for a WS, but the problem I'll have is at the deadline if god forbid the Mets are alive and in a race if they don't make the smart moves to help improve the team. because short of a WS or being consistently competitive there are no moral victories.
Let's hope we get there (to being competitive at the deadline) and have that option instead of being sellers like the past two years.
I believe the Holland rumor came from Rosenthal so I think it's legit
I think there's legitimate argument on both sides.
Right now, I think it's an interesting bet as to whether or not Cano + Lowrie will outproduce Machado over the next couple years. I think the odds are literally 50-50. So is it a better investment to go after Machado and roll the dice long term for a guy who has a lot of value in his defense which could start declining or short term on older players who are still performing? Like I said, I think there's a legitimate argument both ways.
Where I think there's no argument is to be going for it but to be haphazard not making the necessary short term signings for depth in the BP. It's like putting a new roof on a house but not sealing it. Once you've done the heavy lifting, paid for the new roof, and labor to install, why skimp on finishing the job with the cheapest part?
I think that's coming. Look at what he just did to the lineup. We added a ton of depth to the bench so it's not like Brody is overlooking it. I think we'll start to see a bunch of arms added. They might be cheap ones or minor league invites like Avilan today but Im betting there's some interesting names by the time we head to camp. Caminero was interesting. He was the hardest throwing reliever in baseball after Chapman before he got hurt. That said I want one more established name too.
RE: RE: I agree Cespedes is probably what is preventing
the Mets from pursuing Machado (at least a part of it), but saying they shouldn't have signed him is pure 20/20 hind sight.
it didn't work out, but he was the best available option at the time. I had no issue with it at the time, seemed like good term based on what the projections were initially that he'd get.
What the Mets should explore having a new GM (as an excuse) is try and work out a settlement with Cespedes and cut him loose if that's possible.
This year they will probably end up getting most of his money back through insurance. Maybe next offseason you can flip him for another bad contract (or 2) since he'd only have 1 year left. Or they can do a buyout in the offseason a la Kemp/AGon. But totally agree - we all wanted Cespedes back. Pretty sure there were gofundme's and everything. Just got terrible luck that he all of a sudden became extremely injury prone after being a 550ab guy his whole prior career. Kind of like the Wright contract.
The frustrating thing about Cespedes is that he's not some guy who just "lost it" after he came to the Mets or after he signed a contract. Whenever he's on the field, he's hit like the elite stud that we all want him to be.
He'll never live up to that contract, but that's a sunk cost. If he can be our trade deadline acquisition and give us 6-8 weeks of elite play (and postseason ?!?!) and give us 400-450 ABS in 2020, the contract won't be a complete disaster.
with a tractor trailer, and that might be founded, but how different are things if Wright, Harvey, and Cespedes are healthy over the last 4-5 years?
Sometimes you just have to say "that sucks" and move on. That's sports.
Other teams spend over mistakes and injuries..that's the difference...
They don't pokcet insurance money and develop a fear of long term contracts..
We did that for years. That's what got us into such a ridiculous mess at the end of Omar's tenure. Forcing Bay's and Castillos, and Perez's just ended up a disaster. Even going after Santana when the core was crumbling was stupid. You can overcome one star but not many teams can overcome what we've went through with 3. And we are spending to try to supplement the best we can. Look, its not perfect but there are Braves fans, and Brewers fans, and countless teams out there with lower payrolls than us getting excited for this upcoming season. It's not all about the payroll.
with a tractor trailer, and that might be founded, but how different are things if Wright, Harvey, and Cespedes are healthy over the last 4-5 years?
Sometimes you just have to say "that sucks" and move on. That's sports.
Other teams spend over mistakes and injuries..that's the difference...
They don't pokcet insurance money and develop a fear of long term contracts..
Good point, Mets are clearly the only team in baseball avoiding long term contracts. Seems like the whole industry is spending like drunken sailors. How many contracts this offseason have been longer than three years? TWO. A whopping two. In one of the most anticipated free agent classes perhaps ever.
Yes, the team scared of a long term contract. Took on Canos. Which would be the second longest contract given out this offseason if he were considered a free agent...
apparently talking to 6 teams - dodgers, astros, braves, reds, padres, rays.
One thing I absolutely LOVE about BVW and his negotiating style. He is honest. He is aggressive. He will knowing overpay tog et what he wants. But he is always ready to walk when the other side is unwilling to be reasonable. And he moves on in an instant. Sends a really, REALLY strong message to other GMs. I LOVE it.
with a tractor trailer, and that might be founded, but how different are things if Wright, Harvey, and Cespedes are healthy over the last 4-5 years?
Sometimes you just have to say "that sucks" and move on. That's sports.
Other teams spend over mistakes and injuries..that's the difference...
They don't pokcet insurance money and develop a fear of long term contracts..
Good point, Mets are clearly the only team in baseball avoiding long term contracts. Seems like the whole industry is spending like drunken sailors. How many contracts this offseason have been longer than three years? TWO. A whopping two. In one of the most anticipated free agent classes perhaps ever.
Yes, the team scared of a long term contract. Took on Canos. Which would be the second longest contract given out this offseason if he were considered a free agent...
Nobody else is doing it so we shouldn't either is your excuse?
How many 26 year old uber super stars even hit free agency anymore?
And how many don't even cost you a draft pick?
structure the deal with opt outs, deferred money, insurance, whatever, get creative if you want protection.
but don't tell me no one else is giving long-term contracts either so we're not going to pursue Machado. If anything it should make the pursuit easier, right?
second, don't tell me you don't find Machado to be a cultural fit (through the media) and then get linked to Puig. That reeks of convenience and cost.
long-term contracts are risky no doubt and many have failed spectacularly, so teams should absolutely be judicious in deciding who to offer a LTC to, but those failures should set back franchises like Arizona, not a NY team.
Im supposed to be excited about a 34 yr old utility guy? There are impact franchise changing players out there. And their division rivals are going all in on those players.
The Mets have acquired three players on the wrong side of 30. Have a party.
a generational talent right in their prime. It's not going to happen. Worse, at least one, if not both, of those players are going to head to division rivals. The Wilpons should be ashamed of themselves.
With that out of the way, we can still have a good offseason and have a team to be excited about in 2019. The team is already interesting. Making all the moves we've made so far and not fortifying the starting rotation/pen with another quality arm wouldn't make sense. Please don't cheap out and get a scrub like Tomlin because Holland wants another $750K-2M. Finish the job.
Im supposed to be excited about a 34 yr old utility guy? There are impact franchise changing players out there. And their division rivals are going all in on those players.
The Mets have acquired three players on the wrong side of 30. Have a party.
and I agree I will beat this dead horse (Machado/Harper) until it's entrails fall out of it's dead rotting body (it infuriates me that much).
As I said before I do think the Mets are a better team going in to 2019 than they were going in to 2018.
So they have improved. at least on paper.
They can't be done though.
need another legit starter, not an innings eater like Vargas, but a legit starter - hate to sound like a broken record, but the Mets should emphasize and protect the strength of them (starting pitching)
add another bullpen arm
not sure CF is solved yet.
do those three things and I feel (without injury hell) the Mets can contend for the division (pending any moves by othe NL East teams). And contending for the division should be the goal, not contending for he wild card.
Wright off it. I dont see a ton more signings unless they are minor league/ depth types. Theres only one guy you can cut, and I wont leave sleep over, Rhame. So thats not a lot of wiggle room. Do we really want to discard Dom/TJ Rivera types? I dont.
For the right player? Sure, but I can understand trying to get a Holland on a minor league deal. Well add some more depth, even if it isnt that exciting.
Hopefully they do get a deal on one more bigger pen arm and swap Rhames spot out.
the fact that he was still here showed such a failure of imagination across the board. Bruce coming back too, but I honestly didn't believe that was more than smoke and mirrors until it happened.
BVW is definitely the creative and active GM we were begging for all those years. Whether or not he can evaluate young well, draft well, etc. remains to be seen but he gets an A+ for creativity.
Wright off it. I dont see a ton more signings unless they are minor league/ depth types. Theres only one guy you can cut, and I wont leave sleep over, Rhame. So thats not a lot of wiggle room. Do we really want to discard Dom/TJ Rivera types? I dont.
For the right player? Sure, but I can understand trying to get a Holland on a minor league deal. Well add some more depth, even if it isnt that exciting.
Hopefully they do get a deal on one more bigger pen arm and swap Rhames spot out.
Drew Gagnon can go c'mon lol
They have DeGrom, Thor, Wheeler, Matz, Vargas, Dowdy, Lockett, Santiago + Flexen and Lugo. Gagnon can be removed without a second thought. If you're talking about Derek Holland there is a 0% chance he takes a minor league deal c'mon lol
Wright off it. I dont see a ton more signings unless they are minor league/ depth types. Theres only one guy you can cut, and I wont leave sleep over, Rhame. So thats not a lot of wiggle room. Do we really want to discard Dom/TJ Rivera types? I dont.
For the right player? Sure, but I can understand trying to get a Holland on a minor league deal. Well add some more depth, even if it isnt that exciting.
Hopefully they do get a deal on one more bigger pen arm and swap Rhames spot out.
Gagnon? Flexen? I think those 3 + trading Dom are easy calls.
Holland would drive us bonkers so I'll pass there. He's 34. Last 2 seasons 5.0 BB/9. He was so bad with St. Louis they ate 14 million to dump him. Velocity is way down from his peak. Steamer thinks he's shot. They can do better.
reminder, Drew Gagnon had a 5.74 FIP as a Met during his time in the bigs. He's 29 in June. He's not even legit SP depth. I didn't even mention Oswalt in the above comment. Gagnon is probably 9th on the depth chart and sucks.
Brach would make a lot of sense to me, Shawn Kelley too
don't think either gets much more than Parker got, Brach had a good 2nd half in Atlanta and still only 32. His velocity was down first half but went back up with Atlanta. And he's from the area. Cody Allen also obviously interesting, his velocity was down a little last year (results too) but knows Callaway and has more upside.
is that he's a little swarzak'y. But honestly, if Swarzak was a FA right now getting him on a 1 year deal that low would be a good risk bc there's upside if he bounces back. Even at his price Swarzak wasn't the negative value contract Bruce was unless they hated him in the lockerroom or something.
RE: the only thing with Parker (who at that price is great no matter what)
is that he's a little swarzak'y. But honestly, if Swarzak was a FA right now getting him on a 1 year deal that low would be a good risk bc there's upside if he bounces back. Even at his price Swarzak wasn't the negative value contract Bruce was unless they hated him in the lockerroom or something.
Eric,
Swarzak's 2017 was WAY out of wack for the rest of his career. Parker career 10.27 k/9. I don't really see the comparison honestly. Parker HAS shown MLB ability. Career 3.60 FIP over 229 appearances, Swarzak 4.15 6.6 k/9.
is that he's a little swarzak'y. But honestly, if Swarzak was a FA right now getting him on a 1 year deal that low would be a good risk bc there's upside if he bounces back. Even at his price Swarzak wasn't the negative value contract Bruce was unless they hated him in the lockerroom or something.
Eric,
Swarzak's 2017 was WAY out of wack for the rest of his career. Parker career 10.27 k/9. I don't really see the comparison honestly. Parker HAS shown MLB ability. Career 3.60 FIP over 229 appearances, Swarzak 4.15 6.6 k/9.
No disagreement - like I said a little swarzaky. Not an exact replica. Only meant that he's a typical up and down reliever.
Him and Gagnon are guys who should not play for any MLB team with hopes of contending.
Oswalt is on the 40 man. As are Dowdy, Lockett and Flexen so Gagnon doesn't need to be here.
So there's plenty of fat there easily cut if we cna bring in upgrades.
IMO, I like Flexen the best of that bunch.
Would like to see him get some time in Syracuse to face AAA hitters outside of the PCL. Had 50 really nice AA innings in 2017 and proceeded to get completely rocked in MLB and not great in AAA last year either. Sort of guy that you maybe hold on to for one more year if you have space before cutting loose.
can't immediately identify another Parker but you will never hear me ripping the Mets for giving out 1 year deals at 3-4 million. It's legit zero risk. Parker represents that. We can only dream a guy like Bashlor ends up being a guy we want to give 3 million to.
they should have space for Flexen - if you told me they had $15m left
I'd sign Brach for let's say 5m and I'd sign a lefty starter like Holland/Miley/Gio on a 1 year $8-10m. Gagnon would be the first guy off the island and Rhame or Oswalt second.
Then I'd invite Blevins and veteran catcher to ST.
That would complete a good offseason and make it grade A in my book.
love that off-season (all things considered). Holland would be my favorite of the 3 you named (mainly because of curiosity over if the huge K spike is legit).
Off topic but I was having a conversation with someone "in the know" and I was saying I was interested in how guys like Rhame, Callahan etc do year 2 and he was saying unfortunately the track record of these older RP's who throw hard and come up and are HITTABLE shows that usually that's a death knell. That velocity alone should make hitters who haven't seen these guys uncomfortable and if they are seeing the ball well then... it's likely not going to change. So a guy like Flexen.. might just be a minor leaguer. A guy like Wahl.. might just be a minor leaguer.
Forgot he was on the 40. I wouldnt toss away Flexen or Oswalt though and they clearly see something in Dowdy they like.
I'd dump either one if they needed to but Gagnon, Rhame, Peterson and Sewald would all go (for me) over Flexen or Oswalt. Flexen and Oswalt are just bodies. I'd keep them over the 4 I named but they aren't going to be missed.
I'd sign Brach for let's say 5m and I'd sign a lefty starter like Holland/Miley/Gio on a 1 year $8-10m. Gagnon would be the first guy off the island and Rhame or Oswalt second.
Then I'd invite Blevins and veteran catcher to ST.
That would complete a good offseason and make it grade A in my book.
Sign me up and that sounds completely reasonable and doable.
i know it's just a couple games but he got tagged in the playoffs last year for atlanta and for his career he's had pretty obvious R/L splits. Warren has been strong against lefties, he can go multi-innings, and we know he's pitched well on winning teams. There's a value in Brach having closed out games too so either way I'd be fine. Shawn Kelley is another option in the same mold.
Does anyone think TJ Rivera or Gavin Cechhhini could be in jeopardy?
That's a lot of duplication in the infield.
Maybe for a 4th catcher if TDA can't open the season on time or when the injury happens between Ramos or TDA
Yes they are on the outside looking in, but I don't think either has much value. Both probably have considerably less value than Plawecki had, so I don't think they are bringing back any more than some other teams Chris Flexen or Gagnon. May as well see what they have in ST. On the other hand Dom Smith should have more value than Plawecki had, the return from JD Davis is probably close to what Smith should be worth, whether or not the mets are willing to take a package of low level minor leaguers is another question.
in the past few days referencing that scouts really like what they are seeing from Miley in his offseason bullpens.
He could make a quality #5/swingman for either of the NY teams at a reasonable price.
Agreed. I'd like to see the Mets sign 1 of the lefty veterans to compete with Vargas for that exact role with the loser going to the pen as long man/swing man. Then let Gsellman + someone else handle the 7th. Familia + Lugo the 8th. Diaz the 9th.
Does anyone think TJ Rivera or Gavin Cechhhini could be in jeopardy?
That's a lot of duplication in the infield.
Maybe for a 4th catcher if TDA can't open the season on time or when the injury happens between Ramos or TDA
Yes they are on the outside looking in, but I don't think either has much value. Both probably have considerably less value than Plawecki had, so I don't think they are bringing back any more than some other teams Chris Flexen or Gagnon. May as well see what they have in ST. On the other hand Dom Smith should have more value than Plawecki had, the return from JD Davis is probably close to what Smith should be worth, whether or not the mets are willing to take a package of low level minor leaguers is another question.
I meant to be DFA-d, not necessarily traded, though I think both Rivera and Cecchini have c-level prospect value on a team with no infield depth.
Rivera can hit and Cecchini has a 1st round pedigree which might not be completely used up.
Maybe a AAAA OFer or pitcher.
i'd just keep both for depth - pretty sure Cecchini has options
i still think he may have a chance to turn into a player not that different from Lowrie, he's never really gotten a chance and last year he got bad luck with the injuries after a good spring. I'd like to see both him and Guillorme get a chance in AAA for a little before Gimenez gets there.
Rivera is a bat off the bench who can make contact. He could be decent at that or Eric Campbell part 2. I'd cut him before Cecchini if he can't go back to the minors. But I could also see him earning a bench spot early in the year - especially if they want to get JD Davis at bats every day.
RE: i'd just keep both for depth - pretty sure Cecchini has options
i still think he may have a chance to turn into a player not that different from Lowrie, he's never really gotten a chance and last year he got bad luck with the injuries after a good spring. I'd like to see both him and Guillorme get a chance in AAA for a little before Gimenez gets there.
Rivera is a bat off the bench who can make contact. He could be decent at that or Eric Campbell part 2. I'd cut him before Cecchini if he can't go back to the minors. But I could also see him earning a bench spot early in the year - especially if they want to get JD Davis at bats every day.
I'm just saying if you need a 40-man spot, that's where I'd look (Cecchini or Rivera) after the pitchers already named.
There seems to be a glut right now of middle infielders.
And that doesn't even consider Gimenez should start in AAA (?) and not be far away and if he came up would need to play every day.
And there is depth behind Gimenez in the distance (middle infield is probably the organization strength right now)
RE: i'd just keep both for depth - pretty sure Cecchini has options
i still think he may have a chance to turn into a player not that different from Lowrie, he's never really gotten a chance and last year he got bad luck with the injuries after a good spring. I'd like to see both him and Guillorme get a chance in AAA for a little before Gimenez gets there.
Rivera is a bat off the bench who can make contact. He could be decent at that or Eric Campbell part 2. I'd cut him before Cecchini if he can't go back to the minors. But I could also see him earning a bench spot early in the year - especially if they want to get JD Davis at bats every day.
We have a number of pitchers like Gagnon, Rhame, etc. that I would dump off the 40 man if we need space before looking at moving Rivera or Cecchini. Personally I prefer Cecchini if he is out of the funk that he was in last year because in an emergency he can play SS. Rivera can hit, but fielding is an issue. Perhaps in Spring Training some team has an issue with a player being out of options, but could use someone like Cecchini or Rivera and that makes the conversation easier.
McNeil is going to be in AAA again
Hes a solid player who I like but why bury McNeil?
Hes a solid player who I like but why bury McNeil?
Its 2 years and 10M total.
Lowrie is a nice player -- hopefully last year wasn't a lightbulb burning bright before it blows -- 34 is not young in a post-PED age.
Mets envision Lowrie playing every day, with his flexibility allowing them some better matchups elsewhere on the diamond. Lowrie's good from both sides of the plate, and he can also back up Rosario at SS.
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@jareddiamond
A word about Jed Lowrie: Successful baseball teams don't worry about positional "fit" nearly as much as you might think. They seek out the best available talent and try to amass as much of it as possible and then figure out how to deploy it. Just look at the '17 and '18 Dodgers.
4m
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@keithlaw
If Lowrie stays healthy, this is an absurdly good deal for the Mets. I have questions about where everyone plays, though.
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Sounded like they were already gearing up for McNeil to start out as a super sub and that included LF/RF. You can easily shift Nimmo to CF, play McNeil in a corner, and still have two gold glove caliber players backing them all up on the bench.
Does make you wonder if there's another move coming because they can't possibly have enough at bats for all these guys.
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@MattEhalt
Mets also are willing to use McNeil in the outfield so there could be at-bats there if Alonso thrives and Mets use Frazier/Lowrie as the infielders.
Does make you wonder if there's another move coming because they can't possibly have enough at bats for all these guys.
Hopefully the odd man out is Frazier!
Yeah was just saying something similar. I like Marwin but think some team will overpay. This is a sweet deal for us.
Then you've got Lowrie + Frazier + Davis + Alonso filling 3b/1b. With both Davis & Alonso having options left I believe.
Dom Smith is definitely running out of places to play (other than Cuse).
2.) Lowrie 3B
3.) Cano 2B
4.) Conforto RF
5.) Ramos C
6.) McNeil LF
7.) Alonso 1B
8.) Rosario SS
?
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@jareddiamond
A word about Jed Lowrie: Successful baseball teams don't worry about positional "fit" nearly as much as you might think. They seek out the best available talent and try to amass as much of it as possible and then figure out how to deploy it. Just look at the '17 and '18 Dodgers.
4m
Lol, yeah. That and a $250 million payroll.
Dumb statement.
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@JimBowdenGM
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#Mets view Lowrie as their 2nd hole hitterwill play around INF. If Alonso struggles,Frazier plays 1st, Lowrie plays 3rd; Cano days off plays 2nd; Rosario days off plays SS; McNeil becomes extra OF.Mets eliminating rosters ifsone by oneadded lineup length and better balance.
..but I guess they weren't Brodie's clients, seems like a prerequisite for him..so no chance..
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Jared Diamond
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@jareddiamond
A word about Jed Lowrie: Successful baseball teams don't worry about positional "fit" nearly as much as you might think. They seek out the best available talent and try to amass as much of it as possible and then figure out how to deploy it. Just look at the '17 and '18 Dodgers.
4m
Lol, yeah. That and a $250 million payroll.
Dumb statement.
I mean..Mets should have a $200M+ payroll so it's not that dumb..
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@MattEhalt
Hard to say anything but positive things about this deal. Mets are a better team and addressed a weakness while protecting themselves in case McNeil regresses, Frazier struggles or Alonso doesn't hit the ground running.
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@MattEhalt
Hard to say anything but positive things about this deal. Mets are a better team and addressed a weakness while protecting themselves in case McNeil regresses, Frazier struggles or Alonso doesn't hit the ground running.
Yeah to be clear this deal is fine .it just doesn't absolve them of the ridiculousness that is their lack of spending on premier free agents.
159 wins.
:)
159 wins.
:)
bullpen still too thin. otherwise that would work.
159 wins.
:)
Shoot for the stars - 162-0, baby!
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Sign Harper. Package Conforto and Gimenez for Kluber.
159 wins.
:)
bullpen still too thin. otherwise that would work.
lol. ok. Sign Otto too then.
Marwin is 5 years younger than Lowrie though.
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Lowrie has really been a better hitter, and especially 2 hitter than Pollock too.
Marwin is 5 years younger than Lowrie though.
Sure but is he "that good"? Looks like a guy that had one outlier offensive year and a hot half last year. I like him and he offers versatility but this basically gave us the same thing with more offense. If Cespedes returns half way into the season, MGone was likely going to get benched anyway. Lowrie was worth more than Nimmo last year. And he's coming off back to back amazing seasons. Some guys put it together later in their careers and that seems to be the case for Lowrie.
Also: Don't underestimate the importance of having a solid AAA club. It's important to the development of the young guys that they be in a winning environment;
it's important to the new Syracuse Mets affiliate. Having a competitive team matters to the Syracuse fans and the local management. New affiliate, new relationship, make nice with them. Part of the point of moving the Mets' farm teams to Binghamton and Syracuse is to build out the fan base;
and the AAA squad is depth for the big league squad. So if this forces some decent guys down to the minors, or gives the Mets the luxury of keeping guys in AAA a little longer, that works for them too.
2 pure CF options (Lagares, Broxton)
3 1b/3b options (Lowrie, McNeil, Frazier)
1 backup catcher
= 11 locks
Then Davis, Dom, Rivera, Alonso, and maybe even Guillorme or Cecchini competing for the final 1 or 2 spots. No issue with any of these guys having to earn their spot on the roster. Don't love the idea of Mcneil potentially getting lost in the shuffle.
2 pure CF options (Lagares, Broxton)
3 1b/3b options (Lowrie, McNeil, Frazier)
1 backup catcher
= 11 locks
Then Davis, Dom, Rivera, Alonso, and maybe even Guillorme or Cecchini competing for the final 1 or 2 spots. No issue with any of these guys having to earn their spot on the roster. Don't love the idea of Mcneil potentially getting lost in the shuffle.
Dilson Herrera still only 24 and might be finally getting healthy. Liriano, Davis, Blanco.. all guys looking to throw down for spots in ST. Im ready!
Cano, 371 OBP
Lowrie, 374 OBP
Nimmo, 400 OBP
Conforto, 350 OBP
Ramos, 358 OBP
I really don't think people are seeing this move the right way yet. Almost everyone was on board with Marwin Gonzalez, right? Well this gives us the exact same thing, only with more offense. Pushing McNeil to play the OF more gives us more options in the OF and IF the same way MGone would have.
This actually reminds me of the Grandal/Ramos situation. Brody got the better value in Ramos when Grandal pushed his luck. Same thing here again. MGone is asking for the moon and we accomplished the same thing with a better hitter for cheaper.
Lol,sometimes you miss the little nuggets :)
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Hmmm.....
Lol,sometimes you miss the little nuggets :)
No I saw you throw his name out. lol. I was referring to the beats again who are nothing but a bunch of blind fools. Loving it.
Plus, we don't know that BVW is not planning another bigger move.
True but most guys that are above average at 2B/3B can handle LF and they did try him there last year a few times. BVW brought up that McNeil was pretty vocal to play there. Don't see how we are weakening any positions though. Cano is solid at 2B and Lowrie is solid defensively also. Is McNeil going to be any worse than Bruce or an ancient Bautista in a corner OF spot with Nimmo in CF?
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Hmmm.....
Lol,sometimes you miss the little nuggets :)
Now Im hoping the other name comes true. I'd love to add Allen even after his bad year.
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Sound plan to put McNeil in the outfield. Very Mets-like to weaken defense and play someone out of position.
True but most guys that are above average at 2B/3B can handle LF and they did try him there last year a few times. BVW brought up that McNeil was pretty vocal to play there. Don't see how we are weakening any positions though. Cano is solid at 2B and Lowrie is solid defensively also. Is McNeil going to be any worse than Bruce or an ancient Bautista in a corner OF spot with Nimmo in CF?
So we have Nimmo and Conforto as the main OF starters. Then Legares, McNeil, Broxton and Davis will share time for the fourth spot? Very sporadic time in the infield? The reality is that they are taking would could very well be their best hitter and burying him.
McNeil had a breakout year at age 26. It's only sensible to prepare for the possibility he might regress to his career mean. Of course, you hope he turned a corner but it would be foolish to count on that when low-cost option like Lowrie falls into your lap.
Mets were never going to pursue Harper and dish out a 350 million dollar contract.
Plus, both Machado and Harper's contracts are going to wind up being terrible deals down the road.
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In comment 14257574 PhiPsi125 said:
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Sound plan to put McNeil in the outfield. Very Mets-like to weaken defense and play someone out of position.
True but most guys that are above average at 2B/3B can handle LF and they did try him there last year a few times. BVW brought up that McNeil was pretty vocal to play there. Don't see how we are weakening any positions though. Cano is solid at 2B and Lowrie is solid defensively also. Is McNeil going to be any worse than Bruce or an ancient Bautista in a corner OF spot with Nimmo in CF?
So we have Nimmo and Conforto as the main OF starters. Then Legares, McNeil, Broxton and Davis will share time for the fourth spot? Very sporadic time in the infield? The reality is that they are taking would could very well be their best hitter and burying him.
It seems like another deal is likely in the works.
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In comment 14257574 PhiPsi125 said:
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Sound plan to put McNeil in the outfield. Very Mets-like to weaken defense and play someone out of position.
True but most guys that are above average at 2B/3B can handle LF and they did try him there last year a few times. BVW brought up that McNeil was pretty vocal to play there. Don't see how we are weakening any positions though. Cano is solid at 2B and Lowrie is solid defensively also. Is McNeil going to be any worse than Bruce or an ancient Bautista in a corner OF spot with Nimmo in CF?
So we have Nimmo and Conforto as the main OF starters. Then Legares, McNeil, Broxton and Davis will share time for the fourth spot? Very sporadic time in the infield? The reality is that they are taking would could very well be their best hitter and burying him.
I don't think JD Davis has been mentioned in the OF. He's strictly a 3B/1B IMO. If he plays anything else he might actually come out of the pen (Im not joking) I actually could see Davis starting in Syracuse also. I love McNeil but I also love depth and am sick of being decimated by injuries. Let's hope Mickey rotates McNeil in accordingly.
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But as someone mentioned this seems like 20 miller that would have been better served on Robertson due to impact on Mcniel. This shows me that 1) they dont believe in McNeil and 2) and small miniscule hope that Mets were secretly in on Harper are now completely squashed.
McNeil had a breakout year at age 26. It's only sensible to prepare for the possibility he might regress to his career mean. Of course, you hope he turned a corner but it would be foolish to count on that when low-cost option like Lowrie falls into your lap.
Mets were never going to pursue Harper and dish out a 350 million dollar contract.
Plus, both Machado and Harper's contracts are going to wind up being terrible deals down the road.
Agree but McNeil has always hit. He only just "broke out" because of a late start and injuries. depth is good though.
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But as someone mentioned this seems like 20 miller that would have been better served on Robertson due to impact on Mcniel. This shows me that 1) they dont believe in McNeil and 2) and small miniscule hope that Mets were secretly in on Harper are now completely squashed.
McNeil had a breakout year at age 26. It's only sensible to prepare for the possibility he might regress to his career mean. Of course, you hope he turned a corner but it would be foolish to count on that when low-cost option like Lowrie falls into your lap.
Mets were never going to pursue Harper and dish out a 350 million dollar contract.
Plus, both Machado and Harper's contracts are going to wind up being terrible deals down the road.
McNeil has always been a fantastic hitter. People like to throw out the age 26 thing as a negative insinuating that hes some late bloomer that got lucky. He had injuries that pushed him back a bit. Reality is that its no surprise that he came up to the pros hitting so well.
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@TylerKepner
Love the Jed Lowrie signing for the Mets. The teams to succeed them as NL champs (Cubs and Dodgers) have been defined by their offensive depth. A versatile switch-hitter like Lowrie makes a lot of sense. (Bonus style points for his rare two-earflap helmet.)
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@NYPost_Mets
Mets haven't forgotten about Jeff McNeil with the Jed Lowrie addition, plan is to play him more in the OF than previously thought.
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Mets were never going to pursue Harper and dish out a 350 million dollar contract.
Plus, both Machado and Harper's contracts are going to wind up being terrible deals down the road.
That's exactly how the Mets ownership has conditioned Mets fans to think... I just don't understand the apathy to the situation.
Why wouldn't they dish out that contract? It makes no sense for them NOT to do it. They should be prepared to spend up to the luxury tax threshold every year and beyond some years if the players they add make them better.
Rarely do proven superstar 26 year old position player contracts bust.
Plus, If you are a perenniel playoff team and win 1 world series over the next decade, any amount of money is worth it.
Again..this Lowrie deal is fine...but it doesn't excuse the ridiculousness that is the Mets indifference to Harper/Machado...especially with the Phillies being a realistic landing spot.
Afraid he may be right this time. At least a pause.
LOCK HIM UP!!
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to tell us the offseason is done?
Afraid he may be right this time. At least a pause.
LOCK HIM UP!!
Hoping they are still in on one more "name" reliever.
Mets additions this offseason so far:
RHP Edwin Diaz
2B Robinson Cano
RHP Kyle Dowdy
RHP Jeurys Familia
LHP Hector Santiago
LHP Luis Avilan
C Wilson Ramos
OF Keon Broxton
1B/3B J.D. Davis
2B Dilson Herrera
OF Rajai Davis
OF Gregor Blanco
OF Broxton Lee
LHP Ryan O'Rourke
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@NYPost_Mets
Mets haven't forgotten about Jeff McNeil with the Jed Lowrie addition, plan is to play him more in the OF than previously thought.
Ive also got a bridge to sell you.
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@JonHeyman
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Lowrie is a great fit for Mets since they may need help at 1B and 3B and he can also spell Rosario at SS. Switch hitter whose best two offensive seasons were his last two. Mets are having among best winters in baseball.
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@JonHeyman
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Lowrie is a great fit for Mets since they may need help at 1B and 3B and he can also spell Rosario at SS. Switch hitter whose best two offensive seasons were his last two. Mets are having among best winters in baseball.
@KeithOlbermann
Politely, Jon: bullshit. Birdie Von Wigglesworth has now spent $30,000,000 a year of #Mets money on two former client middle infielders who will be 35 and 36 years old before the season is a month old - instead of, you know, Harper or Machado. Its madness. https://t.co/WHfLa3pBr1
It's starting to look like Harper is heading back to the Nationals and Machado will be a Philly which really sucks for all of us.
But Keith Olbermann is right. and I don't think I've typed those words ever.
Machado > Cano + Lowrie.
You'd have to be a complete asshole to not like this move. lol
10 million AAV for a 5 fWAR player last year and he's poo poo ing it. Pughleeze.
You are such a fucking asshole and you wonder why people hate you.
35 years olds have a track record of improving year to year /sarcasm
you screamed all off-season for Marwin Gonzalez (who had a 1.8 fWAR last year, but when I said I would have preferred Lowrie was acquired in his 31 year when he had a 3.4 fWAR old vs his 35 year old season you say "he wasn't even good")
You are a clown and you embarrass your silly-ass self on every single thread you are on.
there was zero reason to attack me. none. simply have a fucking conversation without insulting someone.
is that possible for you?
You are why people don't like Mets fans. You.
You'd have to be a complete asshole to not like this move. lol
The move is ok...
But Harper or Machado would be better. That's the whole point.
If you start with the precondition that the Mets can not sign Machado or Harper, then their off-season had been pretty good.
If you don't start with that ridiculous precondition, the off-season has been completely half assed and is being overrated.
That's the point KO is making...
It also is a little weird that BVW is bringing in former clients who are at the very end of their careers.
I mean, he was the number one prospect in baseball for a reason. He has lighting fast hands. I think we finally start to see him calm down towards the end of the year and relax a little bit. He started to hit the final two months. Conservatively I see Rosario hitting league average with potential for more which would make him a 3 fWAR player easy.
I agree with Matz too. I don't anticipate a "Wheeler" type breakout but he will absolutely solidify the "4 spot". He got almost a full season under his belt last year, had an ERA in the 3's... also finished out the year strong. I expect him to become more reliable this year.
You are such a fucking asshole and you wonder why people hate you.
35 years olds have a track record of improving year to year /sarcasm
you screamed all off-season for Marwin Gonzalez (who had a 1.8 fWAR last year, but when I said I would have preferred Lowrie was acquired in his 31 year when he had a 3.4 fWAR old vs his 35 year old season you say "he wasn't even good")
You are a clown and you embarrass your silly-ass self on every single thread you are on.
there was zero reason to attack me. none. simply have a fucking conversation without insulting someone.
is that possible for you?
You are why people don't like Mets fans. You.
I was referring to Olbermann you fucking crazy maniac. lol.
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I can't believe he is even remotely relevant.
You'd have to be a complete asshole to not like this move. lol
The move is ok...
But Harper or Machado would be better. That's the whole point.
If you start with the precondition that the Mets can not sign Machado or Harper, then their off-season had been pretty good.
If you don't start with that ridiculous precondition, the off-season has been completely half assed and is being overrated.
That's the point KO is making...
It also is a little weird that BVW is bringing in former clients who are at the very end of their careers.
That's fine. There is a contingent of fans that would have never been happy with anything unless we signed Harper or Machado. I get it. But at least admit it acknowledge that nothing barring that would have ever made you happy. There are 29 other teams and everyone wants those two players. They are going to cost 300+ million. It was always a long shot even if money was bottomless.
As for Lowrie, if you don't like this move than you shouldn't have liked Pollock or Marwin Gonzalez or any other addition because he's in that "tier" and just as good.
You typed it less than 5 min ago and you can't even remember it. Scroll up jackass.
Maybe I'd believe you if you didn't type "and..."
You don't have the benefit of the doubt with me. or probably anyone.
And 5 years ago Lowrie wasn't even good..
ZGiants98 : 9:19 pm : link : reply
Lowrie is coming off his best two seasons.
You typed it less than 5 min ago and you can't even remember it. Scroll up jackass.
Maybe I'd believe you if you didn't type "and..."
You don't have the benefit of the doubt with me. or probably anyone.
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And 5 years ago Lowrie wasn't even good..
ZGiants98 : 9:19 pm : link : reply
Lowrie is coming off his best two seasons.
That was the only point that had anything to do with what you said. I was referring to what he did in 2014. Nobody fucking attacked you crazy.
My swearing and rant was at Olberman.
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this has anything to do with anything Olbermann said.
You typed it less than 5 min ago and you can't even remember it. Scroll up jackass.
Maybe I'd believe you if you didn't type "and..."
You don't have the benefit of the doubt with me. or probably anyone.
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And 5 years ago Lowrie wasn't even good..
ZGiants98 : 9:19 pm : link : reply
Lowrie is coming off his best two seasons.
That was the only point that had anything to do with what you said. I was referring to what he did in 2014. Nobody fucking attacked you crazy.
My swearing and rant was at Olberman.
Sorry, that was not clear to me.
I apologize.
Avilan is a good loogy. I think we are set there and he likely has a hand shake deal that he's made the team but they couldn't give him a roster spot until they 60 day Cespedes. Vargas was pretty good after his first 4-5 starts and we traded for some depth there also.
5 years ago was his best season prior to the last two where he had a 120 wRC+ and a 3.4 fWAR.
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bench right now is McNeil, Frazier, TJ Rivera, Broxton, and d'Arnaud; Bullpen includes Diaz, Familia, Lugo, and the rotation is awesome if they can remain healthy. The only true weak spot I see is Vargas and maybe left handed reliever.
Avilan is a good loogy. I think we are set there and he likely has a hand shake deal that he's made the team but they couldn't give him a roster spot until they 60 day Cespedes. Vargas was pretty good after his first 4-5 starts and we traded for some depth there also.
Avilan was a great signing for a minor league deal. I'm a bit surprised that he settled for a minor league deal.
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In comment 14257685 ZGiants98 said:
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I can't believe he is even remotely relevant.
You'd have to be a complete asshole to not like this move. lol
The move is ok...
But Harper or Machado would be better. That's the whole point.
If you start with the precondition that the Mets can not sign Machado or Harper, then their off-season had been pretty good.
If you don't start with that ridiculous precondition, the off-season has been completely half assed and is being overrated.
That's the point KO is making...
It also is a little weird that BVW is bringing in former clients who are at the very end of their careers.
That's fine. There is a contingent of fans that would have never been happy with anything unless we signed Harper or Machado. I get it. But at least admit it acknowledge that nothing barring that would have ever made you happy. There are 29 other teams and everyone wants those two players. They are going to cost 300+ million. It was always a long shot even if money was bottomless.
As for Lowrie, if you don't like this move than you shouldn't have liked Pollock or Marwin Gonzalez or any other addition because he's in that "tier" and just as good.
1) I'm definitely part of that contingent, with one qualificiation: I'm more mad about them not even TRYING to sign Harper/Machado. If they had legitimate, genuine competitive offers on the table and lost, can't fault them.
2) I wanted no part of Pollock, Marwin, or any other 2nd tier addition if it wasn't in addition to Harper/Machado.
This off-season has been fine. Nothing to get excited about. They could be a pretty good team.
..but there is no doubt in my mind that if they expanded the payroll, they would be a better team than they are now...
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95 wRC+, 1.7 fWAR season. I was referring to what he did in 2014. Holy overreaction. Lowrie has clearly evolved in to a much better hitter over the last couple of seasons than he was earlier in his year.
5 years ago was his best season prior to the last two where he had a 120 wRC+ and a 3.4 fWAR.
Right but even so 5 years ago he'd have been heading int0 2014 (we are heading into to 2019), so he wouldnt have been good the year we had him.
Moving on off of that. Clearly a huge miscommunication. Still thing Olberman is a clown. lol
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In comment 14257702 moze1021 said:
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In comment 14257685 ZGiants98 said:
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I can't believe he is even remotely relevant.
You'd have to be a complete asshole to not like this move. lol
The move is ok...
But Harper or Machado would be better. That's the whole point.
If you start with the precondition that the Mets can not sign Machado or Harper, then their off-season had been pretty good.
If you don't start with that ridiculous precondition, the off-season has been completely half assed and is being overrated.
That's the point KO is making...
It also is a little weird that BVW is bringing in former clients who are at the very end of their careers.
That's fine. There is a contingent of fans that would have never been happy with anything unless we signed Harper or Machado. I get it. But at least admit it acknowledge that nothing barring that would have ever made you happy. There are 29 other teams and everyone wants those two players. They are going to cost 300+ million. It was always a long shot even if money was bottomless.
As for Lowrie, if you don't like this move than you shouldn't have liked Pollock or Marwin Gonzalez or any other addition because he's in that "tier" and just as good.
1) I'm definitely part of that contingent, with one qualificiation: I'm more mad about them not even TRYING to sign Harper/Machado. If they had legitimate, genuine competitive offers on the table and lost, can't fault them.
2) I wanted no part of Pollock, Marwin, or any other 2nd tier addition if it wasn't in addition to Harper/Machado.
This off-season has been fine. Nothing to get excited about. They could be a pretty good team.
..but there is no doubt in my mind that if they expanded the payroll, they would be a better team than they are now...
Regardless on whether or not there were any formal sit downs or not, I am 100% positive Brody has spoken to Boras this offseason. Im sure he is well aware of the costs involved in Harper. He probably felt that money could have been better invested in 5-6 players than 1. Just a guess.
In 2014 he got a 1 year / 5m deal with Oakland and was worth 1.7fwar.
2015-2017 he was on a 3 year / 23m deal (4th year option brought it to 29m total) he signed with Houston. Over those 4 years he posted 1.1 fwar, -.7 fwar, and then the last 2 years that totaled almost 9fwar.
So both of his FA deals paid off pretty well. Let's hope this one follows suit.
Mets have a lot of room between current payroll and luxury tax.
The moves they have done and signing Harper/Machado do not have to be mutually exclusive.
I'm still hoping with all hope that getting Harper is still a possibility.
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Lowrie in 2014. He's next three years were pretty brutal. Isnt it those years we'd have been acquiring him for? The years he posted a wRC+ of 95, 95, and 76? That's all I meant. I'd surely take this version who's broken out and become an all-star over the last couple of years.
In 2014 he got a 1 year / 5m deal with Oakland and was worth 1.7fwar.
2015-2017 he was on a 3 year / 23m deal (4th year option brought it to 29m total) he signed with Houston. Over those 4 years he posted 1.1 fwar, -.7 fwar, and then the last 2 years that totaled almost 9fwar.
So both of his FA deals paid off pretty well. Let's hope this one follows suit.
Sure. Im just saying I want this version that broke out now. Not the guy that was heading into 2014. He was ok when he was younger but a lot of that was likely tied to the position he played and defense. He wasn't make all star games before recently. I know he's older, but he's another guy coming off a damn near elite season and he can hit. I stand by this being yet another solid player added of the "MGone, Pollock, ilk. No, its not Harper or Machado but its ok to like adding quality to players to the team IMO in spite of those two.
Mets have a lot of room between current payroll and luxury tax.
The moves they have done and signing Harper/Machado do not have to be mutually exclusive.
I'm still hoping with all hope that getting Harper is still a possibility.
Hey, we wont know until we know... Harper would be amazing.. But I trust Cotts numbers and they got us around 158 million. Give me Ottavino for around 10 and that pushes us to almost 170. Ill be very satisfied with that.
Especially if Manny played 3B and it kept McNeil in the lineup at 2B.
Losing Swarzak and Bruce could have happened any number of ways but didn't have to be part of the Cano/Diaz trade.
It's a fair point, especially when you consider the age of Cano and Lowrie vs Machado.
Not sure why two things can't be true:
Olbermann is an asshole
Olbermann is right about this
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How about the 5 or 6 players AND Harper.
Mets have a lot of room between current payroll and luxury tax.
The moves they have done and signing Harper/Machado do not have to be mutually exclusive.
I'm still hoping with all hope that getting Harper is still a possibility.
Hey, we wont know until we know... Harper would be amazing.. But I trust Cotts numbers and they got us around 158 million. Give me Ottavino for around 10 and that pushes us to almost 170. Ill be very satisfied with that.
That makes 1 of us ;)
I won't be satisfied until we operate like it's 2004/5 again and are a major player in every big time free agent or trade candidate that hits the market.... And if it means paying luxury tax then so be it.. the Red Sox, Yankees, Dodgers, Cubs, Tigers, Nationals, and Angels have all done it at some point...
And you know what, we don't need to be spending that much every year... But when the team is on the brink, when they are just a couple pieces away, that's the time to stretch and go for it.
The "Mets are going for it", "Mets are in win-now mode" bullshit pisses me off... No they aren't. They are in a "let's put the best team on the field we can without breaking the bank" mode, and they have been that way for years.
Especially if Manny played 3B and it kept McNeil in the lineup at 2B.
Losing Swarzak and Bruce could have happened any number of ways but didn't have to be part of the Cano/Diaz trade.
It's a fair point, especially when you consider the age of Cano and Lowrie vs Machado.
Not sure why two things can't be true:
Olbermann is an asshole
Olbermann is right about this
Yes but part of the Cano deal was that they had to take back Bruce/Swarzak (and 20 million) in order to keep the payroll low TO sign Ramos and Lowrie. That's why is comment makes no sense in my mind. He's leaving out important details. If Bruce and Swarzak are still here and we sign Machado instead. Our payroll is much higher now. We also likely had to go out and sign a closer on top of Familia right? He's just shooting off and not thinking anything through.
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In comment 14257747 moze1021 said:
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How about the 5 or 6 players AND Harper.
Mets have a lot of room between current payroll and luxury tax.
The moves they have done and signing Harper/Machado do not have to be mutually exclusive.
I'm still hoping with all hope that getting Harper is still a possibility.
Hey, we wont know until we know... Harper would be amazing.. But I trust Cotts numbers and they got us around 158 million. Give me Ottavino for around 10 and that pushes us to almost 170. Ill be very satisfied with that.
That makes 1 of us ;)
I won't be satisfied until we operate like it's 2004/5 again and are a major player in every big time free agent or trade candidate that hits the market.... And if it means paying luxury tax then so be it.. the Red Sox, Yankees, Dodgers, Cubs, Tigers, Nationals, and Angels have all done it at some point...
And you know what, we don't need to be spending that much every year... But when the team is on the brink, when they are just a couple pieces away, that's the time to stretch and go for it.
The "Mets are going for it", "Mets are in win-now mode" bullshit pisses me off... No they aren't. They are in a "let's put the best team on the field we can without breaking the bank" mode, and they have been that way for years.
Remember that we went through a long rebuild for a reason and that many of our top players arent making a lot of money yet. Thats a big part of it. Syndergaard, deGrom, Wheeler, Nimmo, Conforto, etc. are going to cost a fortune when they are free agents. If we had signed them all to big deals early and the roster was the same but our payroll was 220 million would you be happy then? Just be happy we have a bunch of cost controllable talent in starting roles. That's what everyone wants! I want Machado and Harper too but so does everyone.
I also read recently that the Mets actually don't bring in what people think they do. Blame it on the Wilpons but the SNY deal actually sucks. They only get 50% of the profits from SNY. I think if you count total operational revenue the Mets came in around 18th or something like that. Ill try to dig it up.
I don't even know if he's a Mets fan.
Machado is the best free agent fit to come available at a position of need for the Mets in ages. Maybe since Beltran. And he won't even cost a draft pick.
It's practically a no-brainer. Especially with a new GM looking to make a splash.
It is reasonable to think the Mets could have signed Machado and also unloaded Bruce and Swarzak separately and the payroll wouldn't be much different.
So while I like Lowrie and think, as I mentioned, he adds an additional element to the team and depth, but he doesn't cone without risk.
And he's not a plan A (for me).
Didn't stop the Yankees from adding Stanton, the Red Sox from adding Price..
The big market teams operate differently... A $220M payroll for a few years should be doable for the Mets... If not, then sell the team
Didn't stop the Yankees from adding Stanton, the Red Sox from adding Price..
The big market teams operate differently... A $220M payroll for a few years should be doable for the Mets... If not, then sell the team
..down the road *Didn't stop* the Mets from adding Beltran..
I don't even know if he's a Mets fan.
Machado is the best free agent fit to come available at a position of need for the Mets in ages. Maybe since Beltran. And he won't even cost a draft pick.
It's practically a no-brainer. Especially with a new GM looking to make a splash.
It is reasonable to think the Mets could have signed Machado and also unloaded Bruce and Swarzak separately and the payroll wouldn't be much different.
So while I like Lowrie and think, as I mentioned, he adds an additional element to the team and depth, but he doesn't cone without risk.
And he's not a plan A (for me).
And I don't see anything wrong with that. That's absolutely fine. Harper or Machado would have been my A+ offseason also, especially if we could have slid in more on top of it. But I think both were long shots and it's still ok to like everything else we've done instead. We've now added 5 recent all-stars at positions of needs and strengthened our bench and AAA depth. If you told me you can't have Harper or Machado but Ill give you anything else you want, I probably would have come up with something similar to what we've done to be honest. Im very pleased and I STILL think we add another arm.
Can we be cool again now? Im sorry about the shit I said to you a few weeks ago. Its going to be a long season if we are sniping at each other all year.
Didn't stop the Yankees from adding Stanton, the Red Sox from adding Price..
The big market teams operate differently... A $220M payroll for a few years should be doable for the Mets... If not, then sell the team
Is what the Mets did then that much different than what we've done now? Beltran was young and in his prime but Delgado, Wagner, Glavine, and Pedro were good players at the end of their careers, weren't they? Isnt Diaz young and elite and just entering his prime? Lowrie, Familia, Cano, and Ramos are older but all are still playing at a high level, similar to then. I also think our homegrown base far outweighs the 2006-2008 years. This is the best foundation of talent since the mid 80s. It still might not be enough but damnit this team should be fun to watch with relative health IMO.
I like the off-season for 2019.
Long-term not so sure.
Hinges on how Cano ages and if Diaz maintains/improves.
and that doesn't even consider how Kelenic and Dunn pan out.
If Kelenic becomes Trout it could make this off-season franchise altering. That risk is worth taking if it leads to Mets WS, but otherwise it will be looked at negatively.
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On track for HOF careers that they would have to pay down the road the Mets from adding Beltran, Pedro, Delgado, etc...
Didn't stop the Yankees from adding Stanton, the Red Sox from adding Price..
The big market teams operate differently... A $220M payroll for a few years should be doable for the Mets... If not, then sell the team
Is what the Mets did then that much different than what we've done now? Beltran was young and in his prime but Delgado, Wagner, Glavine, and Pedro were good players at the end of their careers, weren't they? Isnt Diaz young and elite and just entering his prime? Lowrie, Familia, Cano, and Ramos are older but all are still playing at a high level, similar to then. I also think our homegrown base far outweighs the 2006-2008 years. This is the best foundation of talent since the mid 80s. It still might not be enough but damnit this team should be fun to watch with relative health IMO.
Yes. They added Carlos Beltran..which was akin to adding Machado or Harper.
That's exactly the difference. Exactly it.
Floyd, Nady, Valentin, LoDuca.. I can see the parallels to today...
But we don't have any position player as good as Beltran, Wright, or Reyes from those teams. Adding Harper or Machado would do that..
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In comment 14257783 moze1021 said:
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On track for HOF careers that they would have to pay down the road the Mets from adding Beltran, Pedro, Delgado, etc...
Didn't stop the Yankees from adding Stanton, the Red Sox from adding Price..
The big market teams operate differently... A $220M payroll for a few years should be doable for the Mets... If not, then sell the team
Is what the Mets did then that much different than what we've done now? Beltran was young and in his prime but Delgado, Wagner, Glavine, and Pedro were good players at the end of their careers, weren't they? Isnt Diaz young and elite and just entering his prime? Lowrie, Familia, Cano, and Ramos are older but all are still playing at a high level, similar to then. I also think our homegrown base far outweighs the 2006-2008 years. This is the best foundation of talent since the mid 80s. It still might not be enough but damnit this team should be fun to watch with relative health IMO.
Yes. They added Carlos Beltran..which was akin to adding Machado or Harper.
That's exactly the difference. Exactly it.
Floyd, Nady, Valentin, LoDuca.. I can see the parallels to today...
But we don't have any position player as good as Beltran, Wright, or Reyes from those teams. Adding Harper or Machado would do that..
Yeah Beltran was a huge player and get but I still think he was a tier lower than when we almost went after Griffey and Arod (which are more like Machado/Harper today) Those were the mega deals of that day.
Like I said, going out and getting a Diaz is similar to also getting a younger elite talent in his prime, not just a bunch of older talent. Ill take this roster over the 2006-2008 ones actually. The only thing hurting this team right now is a bit of uncertainty with how well or how far some of our younger hitters go but that's not a bad thing. These arent scrubs. These are talented young hitters. The lineup looks deep and versatile now.
Please just go the extra mile and add the pitching depth that we really need.
Like I said...real, genuine offer on the table, less to complain about right now
Bullpen and Lineup better then
We are still missing the true superstar..back then we had 3..
Facts are facts and we are paying a guy 30 million AAV and he might be back mid season. Let's assume the Mets think he is coming back around then. How is Harper even fitting with Nimmo, Conforto, and everyone else on this roster? Maybe you should say "Oh well, make it work, THIS IS NY" but a team running a 160 million dollar payroll that has extensions they have to work out in the future to keep their pitching likely isnt thinking that way.
Just a guess.
Right now, I think it's an interesting bet as to whether or not Cano + Lowrie will outproduce Machado over the next couple years. I think the odds are literally 50-50. So is it a better investment to go after Machado and roll the dice long term for a guy who has a lot of value in his defense which could start declining or short term on older players who are still performing? Like I said, I think there's a legitimate argument both ways.
Where I think there's no argument is to be going for it but to be haphazard not making the necessary short term signings for depth in the BP. It's like putting a new roof on a house but not sealing it. Once you've done the heavy lifting, paid for the new roof, and labor to install, why skimp on finishing the job with the cheapest part?
Please just go the extra mile and add the pitching depth that we really need.
Sign Derek Holland for 2 million to compete with Vargas (loser goes to the pen as the long man). Sign either Ottavino, Allen, or Warren. Somebody like that. Shouldn't cost a ton more.
it didn't work out, but he was the best available option at the time. I had no issue with it at the time, seemed like good term based on what the projections were initially that he'd get.
What the Mets should explore having a new GM (as an excuse) is try and work out a settlement with Cespedes and cut him loose if that's possible.
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and get another pitcher. We really need more depth there. My initial reaction was concern with blocking McNeil and not spending the money on pitching, but after more thought, Lowrie is a REALLY underrated player and I'm glad he's in the blue and orange.
Please just go the extra mile and add the pitching depth that we really need.
Sign Derek Holland for 2 million to compete with Vargas (loser goes to the pen as the long man). Sign either Ottavino, Allen, or Warren. Somebody like that. Shouldn't cost a ton more.
You're talking about the Holland that was on the Giants last year? I had no idea he was a UFA. He's realllllly underrated (if you're into fantasy baseball, and need to start a lot of pitchers, look to snag him late in your draft).
Would LOVE to add him to our team.
Bullpen and Lineup better then
We are still missing the true superstar..back then we had 3..
I think Conforto and Nimmo are those homegrown superstars or are on the verge of that. I know you mentioned Loduca, Valentin, etc. but give me Cano, Ramos, and Lowrie over those guys. I also think we have potential for a bunch of young breakout guys to add to Nimmo and Conforto. Alonso, JD Davis, Rosario. McNeil all could shatter what we had then depending on how far they go. If Cespedes comes back second half healthy this lineup could be elite. Right now Ill settle for deep and versatile.
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In comment 14257819 Metnut said:
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and get another pitcher. We really need more depth there. My initial reaction was concern with blocking McNeil and not spending the money on pitching, but after more thought, Lowrie is a REALLY underrated player and I'm glad he's in the blue and orange.
Please just go the extra mile and add the pitching depth that we really need.
Sign Derek Holland for 2 million to compete with Vargas (loser goes to the pen as the long man). Sign either Ottavino, Allen, or Warren. Somebody like that. Shouldn't cost a ton more.
You're talking about the Holland that was on the Giants last year? I had no idea he was a UFA. He's realllllly underrated (if you're into fantasy baseball, and need to start a lot of pitchers, look to snag him late in your draft).
Would LOVE to add him to our team.
Yup. There was a blurb on MLBTR about a week ago BVW was pursuing him. There was a thought he might even settle for a minor league deal but was holding out for a ML contract with somebody. He should! He's a good player. Shouldn't cost much either.
Link - ( New Window )
it didn't work out, but he was the best available option at the time. I had no issue with it at the time, seemed like good term based on what the projections were initially that he'd get.
What the Mets should explore having a new GM (as an excuse) is try and work out a settlement with Cespedes and cut him loose if that's possible.
This year they will probably end up getting most of his money back through insurance. Maybe next offseason you can flip him for another bad contract (or 2) since he'd only have 1 year left. Or they can do a buyout in the offseason a la Kemp/AGon. But totally agree - we all wanted Cespedes back. Pretty sure there were gofundme's and everything. Just got terrible luck that he all of a sudden became extremely injury prone after being a 550ab guy his whole prior career. Kind of like the Wright contract.
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Coming off of a 2.0 fWAR season last year.
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Tomlin stinks. No thanks. Gimme Holland.
And while it's not the approach I think would have been the easiest to improve, if it leads to results on the field I don't care.
I'll sacrifice the future for a WS, but the problem I'll have is at the deadline if god forbid the Mets are alive and in a race if they don't make the smart moves to help improve the team. because short of a WS or being consistently competitive there are no moral victories.
Let's hope we get there (to being competitive at the deadline) and have that option instead of being sellers like the past two years.
Right now, I think it's an interesting bet as to whether or not Cano + Lowrie will outproduce Machado over the next couple years. I think the odds are literally 50-50. So is it a better investment to go after Machado and roll the dice long term for a guy who has a lot of value in his defense which could start declining or short term on older players who are still performing? Like I said, I think there's a legitimate argument both ways.
Where I think there's no argument is to be going for it but to be haphazard not making the necessary short term signings for depth in the BP. It's like putting a new roof on a house but not sealing it. Once you've done the heavy lifting, paid for the new roof, and labor to install, why skimp on finishing the job with the cheapest part?
I think that's coming. Look at what he just did to the lineup. We added a ton of depth to the bench so it's not like Brody is overlooking it. I think we'll start to see a bunch of arms added. They might be cheap ones or minor league invites like Avilan today but Im betting there's some interesting names by the time we head to camp. Caminero was interesting. He was the hardest throwing reliever in baseball after Chapman before he got hurt. That said I want one more established name too.
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the Mets from pursuing Machado (at least a part of it), but saying they shouldn't have signed him is pure 20/20 hind sight.
it didn't work out, but he was the best available option at the time. I had no issue with it at the time, seemed like good term based on what the projections were initially that he'd get.
What the Mets should explore having a new GM (as an excuse) is try and work out a settlement with Cespedes and cut him loose if that's possible.
This year they will probably end up getting most of his money back through insurance. Maybe next offseason you can flip him for another bad contract (or 2) since he'd only have 1 year left. Or they can do a buyout in the offseason a la Kemp/AGon. But totally agree - we all wanted Cespedes back. Pretty sure there were gofundme's and everything. Just got terrible luck that he all of a sudden became extremely injury prone after being a 550ab guy his whole prior career. Kind of like the Wright contract.
The frustrating thing about Cespedes is that he's not some guy who just "lost it" after he came to the Mets or after he signed a contract. Whenever he's on the field, he's hit like the elite stud that we all want him to be.
He'll never live up to that contract, but that's a sunk cost. If he can be our trade deadline acquisition and give us 6-8 weeks of elite play (and postseason ?!?!) and give us 400-450 ABS in 2020, the contract won't be a complete disaster.
Sometimes you just have to say "that sucks" and move on. That's sports.
Sometimes you just have to say "that sucks" and move on. That's sports.
Other teams spend over mistakes and injuries..that's the difference...
They don't pokcet insurance money and develop a fear of long term contracts..
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with a tractor trailer, and that might be founded, but how different are things if Wright, Harvey, and Cespedes are healthy over the last 4-5 years?
Sometimes you just have to say "that sucks" and move on. That's sports.
Other teams spend over mistakes and injuries..that's the difference...
They don't pokcet insurance money and develop a fear of long term contracts..
We did that for years. That's what got us into such a ridiculous mess at the end of Omar's tenure. Forcing Bay's and Castillos, and Perez's just ended up a disaster. Even going after Santana when the core was crumbling was stupid. You can overcome one star but not many teams can overcome what we've went through with 3. And we are spending to try to supplement the best we can. Look, its not perfect but there are Braves fans, and Brewers fans, and countless teams out there with lower payrolls than us getting excited for this upcoming season. It's not all about the payroll.
Adds a veteran presence along with Cano and Ramos
If Mets avoid injuries, they are going to be a team that is right there all season
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with a tractor trailer, and that might be founded, but how different are things if Wright, Harvey, and Cespedes are healthy over the last 4-5 years?
Sometimes you just have to say "that sucks" and move on. That's sports.
Other teams spend over mistakes and injuries..that's the difference...
They don't pokcet insurance money and develop a fear of long term contracts..
Good point, Mets are clearly the only team in baseball avoiding long term contracts. Seems like the whole industry is spending like drunken sailors. How many contracts this offseason have been longer than three years? TWO. A whopping two. In one of the most anticipated free agent classes perhaps ever.
Yes, the team scared of a long term contract. Took on Canos. Which would be the second longest contract given out this offseason if he were considered a free agent...
One thing I absolutely LOVE about BVW and his negotiating style. He is honest. He is aggressive. He will knowing overpay tog et what he wants. But he is always ready to walk when the other side is unwilling to be reasonable. And he moves on in an instant. Sends a really, REALLY strong message to other GMs. I LOVE it.
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In comment 14257858 ZGiants98 said:
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with a tractor trailer, and that might be founded, but how different are things if Wright, Harvey, and Cespedes are healthy over the last 4-5 years?
Sometimes you just have to say "that sucks" and move on. That's sports.
Other teams spend over mistakes and injuries..that's the difference...
They don't pokcet insurance money and develop a fear of long term contracts..
Good point, Mets are clearly the only team in baseball avoiding long term contracts. Seems like the whole industry is spending like drunken sailors. How many contracts this offseason have been longer than three years? TWO. A whopping two. In one of the most anticipated free agent classes perhaps ever.
Yes, the team scared of a long term contract. Took on Canos. Which would be the second longest contract given out this offseason if he were considered a free agent...
Nobody else is doing it so we shouldn't either is your excuse?
How many 26 year old uber super stars even hit free agency anymore?
And how many don't even cost you a draft pick?
structure the deal with opt outs, deferred money, insurance, whatever, get creative if you want protection.
but don't tell me no one else is giving long-term contracts either so we're not going to pursue Machado. If anything it should make the pursuit easier, right?
second, don't tell me you don't find Machado to be a cultural fit (through the media) and then get linked to Puig. That reeks of convenience and cost.
long-term contracts are risky no doubt and many have failed spectacularly, so teams should absolutely be judicious in deciding who to offer a LTC to, but those failures should set back franchises like Arizona, not a NY team.
Be sarcastic all you want. You have your opinion I have mine. The Mets clearly agree with you but the Mets also haven't won a WS in over 32 years.
And Harper I'm less interested in, though OF is a weakness, than Machado.
Im supposed to be excited about a 34 yr old utility guy? There are impact franchise changing players out there. And their division rivals are going all in on those players.
The Mets have acquired three players on the wrong side of 30. Have a party.
Oh, LOL, I thought so. too bad you or I don't own the team.
I bet BVW would like to add Machado or Harper too if it was an option.
With that out of the way, we can still have a good offseason and have a team to be excited about in 2019. The team is already interesting. Making all the moves we've made so far and not fortifying the starting rotation/pen with another quality arm wouldn't make sense. Please don't cheap out and get a scrub like Tomlin because Holland wants another $750K-2M. Finish the job.
Im supposed to be excited about a 34 yr old utility guy? There are impact franchise changing players out there. And their division rivals are going all in on those players.
The Mets have acquired three players on the wrong side of 30. Have a party.
Lol. A 5 WAR player. Nice utility player.
As I said before I do think the Mets are a better team going in to 2019 than they were going in to 2018.
So they have improved. at least on paper.
They can't be done though.
need another legit starter, not an innings eater like Vargas, but a legit starter - hate to sound like a broken record, but the Mets should emphasize and protect the strength of them (starting pitching)
add another bullpen arm
not sure CF is solved yet.
do those three things and I feel (without injury hell) the Mets can contend for the division (pending any moves by othe NL East teams). And contending for the division should be the goal, not contending for he wild card.
Texas remains the most obvious partner on a Frazier trade. They have multiple "extra" pieces + Minor #Mets
For the right player? Sure, but I can understand trying to get a Holland on a minor league deal. Well add some more depth, even if it isnt that exciting.
Hopefully they do get a deal on one more bigger pen arm and swap Rhames spot out.
BVW is definitely the creative and active GM we were begging for all those years. Whether or not he can evaluate young well, draft well, etc. remains to be seen but he gets an A+ for creativity.
For the right player? Sure, but I can understand trying to get a Holland on a minor league deal. Well add some more depth, even if it isnt that exciting.
Hopefully they do get a deal on one more bigger pen arm and swap Rhames spot out.
Drew Gagnon can go c'mon lol
They have DeGrom, Thor, Wheeler, Matz, Vargas, Dowdy, Lockett, Santiago + Flexen and Lugo. Gagnon can be removed without a second thought. If you're talking about Derek Holland there is a 0% chance he takes a minor league deal c'mon lol
For the right player? Sure, but I can understand trying to get a Holland on a minor league deal. Well add some more depth, even if it isnt that exciting.
Hopefully they do get a deal on one more bigger pen arm and swap Rhames spot out.
Gagnon? Flexen? I think those 3 + trading Dom are easy calls.
Eric,
Swarzak's 2017 was WAY out of wack for the rest of his career. Parker career 10.27 k/9. I don't really see the comparison honestly. Parker HAS shown MLB ability. Career 3.60 FIP over 229 appearances, Swarzak 4.15 6.6 k/9.
Oswalt is on the 40 man. As are Dowdy, Lockett and Flexen so Gagnon doesn't need to be here.
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is that he's a little swarzak'y. But honestly, if Swarzak was a FA right now getting him on a 1 year deal that low would be a good risk bc there's upside if he bounces back. Even at his price Swarzak wasn't the negative value contract Bruce was unless they hated him in the lockerroom or something.
Eric,
Swarzak's 2017 was WAY out of wack for the rest of his career. Parker career 10.27 k/9. I don't really see the comparison honestly. Parker HAS shown MLB ability. Career 3.60 FIP over 229 appearances, Swarzak 4.15 6.6 k/9.
No disagreement - like I said a little swarzaky. Not an exact replica. Only meant that he's a typical up and down reliever.
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Him and Gagnon are guys who should not play for any MLB team with hopes of contending.
Oswalt is on the 40 man. As are Dowdy, Lockett and Flexen so Gagnon doesn't need to be here.
So there's plenty of fat there easily cut if we cna bring in upgrades.
IMO, I like Flexen the best of that bunch.
Would like to see him get some time in Syracuse to face AAA hitters outside of the PCL. Had 50 really nice AA innings in 2017 and proceeded to get completely rocked in MLB and not great in AAA last year either. Sort of guy that you maybe hold on to for one more year if you have space before cutting loose.
Then I'd invite Blevins and veteran catcher to ST.
That would complete a good offseason and make it grade A in my book.
Off topic but I was having a conversation with someone "in the know" and I was saying I was interested in how guys like Rhame, Callahan etc do year 2 and he was saying unfortunately the track record of these older RP's who throw hard and come up and are HITTABLE shows that usually that's a death knell. That velocity alone should make hitters who haven't seen these guys uncomfortable and if they are seeing the ball well then... it's likely not going to change. So a guy like Flexen.. might just be a minor leaguer. A guy like Wahl.. might just be a minor leaguer.
I'd dump either one if they needed to but Gagnon, Rhame, Peterson and Sewald would all go (for me) over Flexen or Oswalt. Flexen and Oswalt are just bodies. I'd keep them over the 4 I named but they aren't going to be missed.
Who is missing?
Mets 40 man - ( New Window )
Who is missing? Mets 40 man - ( New Window )
Lowrie makes 40.
Who is missing? Mets 40 man - ( New Window )
Lowrie.
Then I'd invite Blevins and veteran catcher to ST.
That would complete a good offseason and make it grade A in my book.
Sign me up and that sounds completely reasonable and doable.
lol
He could make a quality #5/swingman for either of the NY teams at a reasonable price.
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39 on the 40 man without Wright on mlb.om
Who is missing? Mets 40 man - ( New Window )
Lowrie, of course.
Does anyone think TJ Rivera or Gavin Cechhhini could be in jeopardy?
That's a lot of duplication in the infield.
Maybe for a 4th catcher if TDA can't open the season on time or when the injury happens between Ramos or TDA
Lowrie makes 40.
Does anyone think TJ Rivera or Gavin Cechhhini could be in jeopardy?
That's a lot of duplication in the infield.
Maybe for a 4th catcher if TDA can't open the season on time or when the injury happens between Ramos or TDA
Does anyone think TJ Rivera or Gavin Cechhhini could be in jeopardy?
That's a lot of duplication in the infield.
Maybe for a 4th catcher if TDA can't open the season on time or when the injury happens between Ramos or TDA
Yes they are on the outside looking in, but I don't think either has much value. Both probably have considerably less value than Plawecki had, so I don't think they are bringing back any more than some other teams Chris Flexen or Gagnon. May as well see what they have in ST. On the other hand Dom Smith should have more value than Plawecki had, the return from JD Davis is probably close to what Smith should be worth, whether or not the mets are willing to take a package of low level minor leaguers is another question.
He could make a quality #5/swingman for either of the NY teams at a reasonable price.
Agreed. I'd like to see the Mets sign 1 of the lefty veterans to compete with Vargas for that exact role with the loser going to the pen as long man/swing man. Then let Gsellman + someone else handle the 7th. Familia + Lugo the 8th. Diaz the 9th.
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was formatted poorly:
Does anyone think TJ Rivera or Gavin Cechhhini could be in jeopardy?
That's a lot of duplication in the infield.
Maybe for a 4th catcher if TDA can't open the season on time or when the injury happens between Ramos or TDA
Yes they are on the outside looking in, but I don't think either has much value. Both probably have considerably less value than Plawecki had, so I don't think they are bringing back any more than some other teams Chris Flexen or Gagnon. May as well see what they have in ST. On the other hand Dom Smith should have more value than Plawecki had, the return from JD Davis is probably close to what Smith should be worth, whether or not the mets are willing to take a package of low level minor leaguers is another question.
I meant to be DFA-d, not necessarily traded, though I think both Rivera and Cecchini have c-level prospect value on a team with no infield depth.
Rivera can hit and Cecchini has a 1st round pedigree which might not be completely used up.
Maybe a AAAA OFer or pitcher.
Rivera is a bat off the bench who can make contact. He could be decent at that or Eric Campbell part 2. I'd cut him before Cecchini if he can't go back to the minors. But I could also see him earning a bench spot early in the year - especially if they want to get JD Davis at bats every day.
Rivera is a bat off the bench who can make contact. He could be decent at that or Eric Campbell part 2. I'd cut him before Cecchini if he can't go back to the minors. But I could also see him earning a bench spot early in the year - especially if they want to get JD Davis at bats every day.
I'm just saying if you need a 40-man spot, that's where I'd look (Cecchini or Rivera) after the pitchers already named.
There seems to be a glut right now of middle infielders.
And that doesn't even consider Gimenez should start in AAA (?) and not be far away and if he came up would need to play every day.
And there is depth behind Gimenez in the distance (middle infield is probably the organization strength right now)
Rivera is a bat off the bench who can make contact. He could be decent at that or Eric Campbell part 2. I'd cut him before Cecchini if he can't go back to the minors. But I could also see him earning a bench spot early in the year - especially if they want to get JD Davis at bats every day.
We have a number of pitchers like Gagnon, Rhame, etc. that I would dump off the 40 man if we need space before looking at moving Rivera or Cecchini. Personally I prefer Cecchini if he is out of the funk that he was in last year because in an emergency he can play SS. Rivera can hit, but fielding is an issue. Perhaps in Spring Training some team has an issue with a player being out of options, but could use someone like Cecchini or Rivera and that makes the conversation easier.
to me that's the priority over a 300 million Harper/Machado
Wouldn't mind to see an offer to Wheeler too
Would've loved to see him here but I guess he was outside of our budget. Our starting pitching is still remarkably thin.
Would've loved to see him here but I guess he was outside of our budget. Our starting pitching is still remarkably thin.
agreed - great contract. Miley or Gio would be just as good, hopefully either is available at a similar price.