Why is there so much consensus that Rivers is a lock for the Hall of Fame and Eli isn't. Their numbers are virtually equal and Eli has two rings. If you watched today's game against the Patriots , you see the results of a lack of protection.Rivers looked far worse than Eli did at any time this year.
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In comment 14262236 BobbyJohnson4thand17 said:
Fair enough. That's where facts have to become a part of a balanced and fair discussion. He'll have the stats (there will be those who don't like his efficiency (i.e., interceptions and completion %) and that's fair) and the hardware, and then to rebut the "lucky" argument someone will have to point to the following path taken to two championships, including dueling or outdueling the QBs in the following games:
1) 13-3 No. 1 seed on the road;
2) 13-3 No. 2 seed on the road;
3) 18-0 AFC champion on a neutral site;
4) 15-1 No. 1 seed on the road;
5) 13-3 No. 2 seed on the road;
6) 13-3 AFC champion on a neutral site.
Or like bw in dc says, a good 6 or so weeks.
The two playoff runs were epic. No question about it. Eli played out of his mind during those runs and beat some of the best teams and some of the best players of the era. He will always be a legend in NY sports because of them. Like I said... he gets my vote.
The giants made a pick in barkley that was correct but NYG cannot and should not let risk stop them from using a premium pick on a qb they like going forward.
I’d like to know who these Steelers fans are that consider Bradshaw the rbeneficiary of a loaded team. having lived in pittsburgh in the 90s most of the talk was how swan and stallworth were the overrated ones undeserving of hof.....
And i haven’t met a Steelers fan who considers Eli superior to Ben let alone Terry.
Whoa Nelly. Slow down there. Since when is saying that DG can't afford Reese type mistakes translate to the risks associated with picking a QB that ends up as a bust? William Joseph was drafted number 25 in the first round. The point I was making is that drafting mistakes in the Top 10 don't happen in a vacuum and have long-term effects. How different would the team be if Gurley was picked over Flowers? How would that have impacted the current QB situation?
That's interesting so now Bradshaw carried Swan and Stallworth to those championships and Super Bowls. Good to know people in Pittsburgh in the '90s, at least the ones you overheard or engaged with, are as clueless as a lot of the Giants fans today. Hey, they're entitled to their own opinions, just not their own facts.
regarding your excessive hyperbole and calling people clueless, any routine list of top all time 25 qbs includes Bradshaw.
swan while athletic and a victim of a great running game and defense never had more than 880 yards receiving. His peer comparisons on pro football reference are to the likes of al toon. meanwhile bradshaw consistently ranked highly amongst his peers and was one of the best players in the game in 78-79.
Not even something to debate.
regarding your excessive hyperbole and calling people clueless, any routine list of top all time 25 qbs includes Bradshaw.
swan while athletic and a victim of a great running game and defense never had more than 880 yards receiving. His peer comparisons on pro football reference are to the likes of al toon. meanwhile bradshaw consistently ranked highly amongst his peers and was one of the best players in the game in 78-79.
Excessive hyperbole seems a little redundant. I think we're talking past each other on the draft issue. My point was simply that DG's non-QB picks will impact our ability to get the right QB and he can't miss on those non-QB picks.
Of course Bradshaw is included in any Top 25 QB list by the sheer fact that he's a four-time SB winner. The point is he played on a stacked team and in no way should Swann and Stallworth be diminished to make an argument for Bradshaw. It's almost like what Eli's detractors do when they poo poo his two SB runs and any other accomplishments (e.g., the defense won SB 42). You can criticize him in a balanced, nuanced way and be more persuasive than some of the "clueless" statements I see bandied about around here.
[quote] And sorry if I missed it. But Eli has played his career in NY which is sort of known for the bad weather on occasion. Rivers is in one of the best climates in the world. Folks over time that makes a difference. I have nothing but respect for the career Rivers has had. But if you say Rivers should be in (and he should be) then you can’t say Eli should not be. It’s not even a debate. BTW how was the weather today?
Not even something to debate. [/quote
Thanks, Giant John. I actually mentioned it a few comments back:
I think FMiC pointed out all the playoffs Rivers has missed. But hey, when you get to play in sunny San Diego most of your career, play in what for a significant portion of your career has been a cupcake division, and play with arguably two top 5 players in NFL history at their respective positions (Tomlinson and Gates), you get to be viewed as the better player, I guess.
Strahan. A Hall of Farmer.
Two other great dlinemen - Tuck and Osi.
Another quality dlineman in JPP.
Barber. Who is being blackballed from the Hall of Fame.
4X Pro Bowle G Chris Snee.
OBJ. One of the most gifted receivers we’ve ever seen.
Amani Toomer - all time receiving leader for the Giants.
4X Pro Bowl TE Jeremy Shockey.
Dynamic RBs in Bradshaw and Jacobs.
Excellent recelvers like Cruz, Nicks, Smith, Manningham.
Possible HoF coach Coughlin.
Just to be clear...
Strahan. A Hall of Farmer.
Two other great dlinemen - Tuck and Osi.
Another quality dlineman in JPP.
Barber. Who is being blackballed from the Hall of Fame.
4X Pro Bowle G Chris Snee.
OBJ. One of the most gifted receivers we’ve ever seen.
Amani Toomer - all time receiving leader for the Giants.
4X Pro Bowl TE Jeremy Shockey.
Dynamic RBs in Bradshaw and Jacobs.
Excellent recelvers like Cruz, Nicks, Smith, Manningham.
Possible HoF coach Coughlin.
Just to be clear...
Thus, Tiki should be in and Eli should not?
Strahan. A Hall of Farmer.
Two other great dlinemen - Tuck and Osi.
Another quality dlineman in JPP.
Barber. Who is being blackballed from the Hall of Fame.
4X Pro Bowle G Chris Snee.
OBJ. One of the most gifted receivers we’ve ever seen.
Amani Toomer - all time receiving leader for the Giants.
4X Pro Bowl TE Jeremy Shockey.
Dynamic RBs in Bradshaw and Jacobs.
Excellent recelvers like Cruz, Nicks, Smith, Manningham.
Possible HoF coach Coughlin.
Just to be clear...
Actually, you left out Plaxico, Barkley, and Tyree, who has to count simply for the helmet catch. Where are those arguably two Top 5 players of all-time at their respective positions (Tomlinson and Gates) Eli played with on offense again? Now Tiki is being blackballed? Wow.
Remember when SD flipped that 2005 first round pick from the Eli trade into Shawne "Lights Out" Merriman, the next LT? How good were Vincent Jackson and Michael Turner? How good are Joey Bosa, Derwin James, Melvin Ingram, Keenan Allen, Mike Williams, Melvin Gordon, Mike Pouncey, Hunter Henry, etc.? Yeah, Rivers has had to drag his teams and take them to new heights against seemingly insurmountable challenges in the playoffs. Wait, he couldn't lead his team past the weakest Patriots team he's ever faced?
Are you serious With this post the Giants won 5 games and didn’t even qualify for the playoffs nonetheless win a playoff game something the Giants haven’t done in a long time. Since 2011 it’s now 2019
Actually, you left out Plaxico, Barkley, and Tyree, who has to count simply for the helmet catch. Where are those arguably two Top 5 players of all-time at their respective positions (Tomlinson and Gates) Eli played with on offense again? Now Tiki is being blackballed? Wow.
Remember when SD flipped that 2005 first round pick from the Eli trade into Shawne "Lights Out" Merriman, the next LT? How good were Vincent Jackson and Michael Turner? How good are Joey Bosa, Derwin James, Melvin Ingram, Keenan Allen, Mike Williams, Melvin Gordon, Mike Pouncey, Hunter Henry, etc.? Yeah, Rivers has had to drag his teams and take them to new heights against seemingly insurmountable challenges in the playoffs. Wait, he couldn't lead his team past the weakest Patriots team he's ever faced?
So if Eli wasn’t scared to play in San Diego he could have played with better talent?
Are you serious With this post the Giants won 5 games and didn’t even qualify for the playoffs nonetheless win a playoff game something the Giants haven’t done in a long time. Since 2011 it’s now 2019 [/quote]
This is about how you and others prefer Rivers, not Eli's recent track record. Riddle me this, when was the last time Rivers was in the playoffs before this year? You know something Rivers has never done let alone done in a long time? I think you know the answer to that.
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Actually, you left out Plaxico, Barkley, and Tyree, who has to count simply for the helmet catch. Where are those arguably two Top 5 players of all-time at their respective positions (Tomlinson and Gates) Eli played with on offense again? Now Tiki is being blackballed? Wow.
Remember when SD flipped that 2005 first round pick from the Eli trade into Shawne "Lights Out" Merriman, the next LT? How good were Vincent Jackson and Michael Turner? How good are Joey Bosa, Derwin James, Melvin Ingram, Keenan Allen, Mike Williams, Melvin Gordon, Mike Pouncey, Hunter Henry, etc.? Yeah, Rivers has had to drag his teams and take them to new heights against seemingly insurmountable challenges in the playoffs. Wait, he couldn't lead his team past the weakest Patriots team he's ever faced?
So if Eli wasn’t scared to play in San Diego he could have played with better talent?
And won more Super Bowls than Rivers would have won in NY since he would not only have played with better talent, he would have played most of his career in an easier division. But that's not the point of your little exercise, right?
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In comment [url=index.php?mode=2&thread=Wait, he couldn't lead his team past the weakest Patriots team he's ever faced?
Are you serious With this post the Giants won 5 games and didn’t even qualify for the playoffs nonetheless win a playoff game something the Giants haven’t done in a long time. Since 2011 it’s now 2019
This is about how you and others prefer Rivers, not Eli's recent track record. Riddle me this, when was the last time Rivers was in the playoffs before this year? You know something Rivers has never done let alone done in a long time? I think you know the answer to that. [/quote]
You have me wrong I don’t prefer Rivers.. IMO all 3 are pretty equal, all have had very good careers. Asking who is better is like splitting hairs.. maybe Big Ben cause he’s more mobile then the other 2. I don’t think none of the 3 belong in the HOF they are hall of very good material IMO
Neither will get in first ballot unless both have something surprising to end their careers
You can’t bring up Elis regular season record than discount the SBs. Wins/losses are team achievements as are SBs.
You can bring up being SB MVP because being the best player in the biggest game absolutely means something.
Statistically they are both at an all time level.
They both have had amazing years.
They played great in at least two different eras of football.
You can go on and on. They both played at the highest level one could play for 15 seasons+. How many QBs can say that?
The answer is the ones in the HOF.
Great fair concise summary...
What did you do with Dep026 and step back from the keyboard, sir.
Not even something to debate.
If you bring up the weather excuse for Eli then how come his per game etficiency stats (and W-L record) suck compared with his bad weather performing contemporaries Rodgers, Brady, and Roethlisberger?
I am just concerned that 5+ years of therapy isn’t enough...
My position has always been I didn’t like the stunt Eli et al pulled at the 2004 draft. It reaked of entitlement. Feel the same about Elway.
Peyton didn’t have a problem playing for the hideous Colts and their imbecile owner. Why the Mannings would suddenly have this desire to protect Eli against the awful Chargers was very hypocritical.
Eli was simply exercising his rights as a human being. Are you also in favor of slavery?
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Brady
Montana
Starr
Bradshaw
Manning (Eli).
And Eli can't hold a candle to any of them.
I would argue that Eli is better than Bradshaw and Starr, both of whom played with the greatest collection of All-Pros in the history of football, particularly Bradshaw. For Starr it was also true that he played for the greatest coach of all time (certainly at that time).
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Both are getting in
Neither will get in first ballot unless both have something surprising to end their careers
You can’t bring up Elis regular season record than discount the SBs. Wins/losses are team achievements as are SBs.
You can bring up being SB MVP because being the best player in the biggest game absolutely means something.
Statistically they are both at an all time level.
They both have had amazing years.
They played great in at least two different eras of football.
You can go on and on. They both played at the highest level one could play for 15 seasons+. How many QBs can say that?
The answer is the ones in the HOF.
Great fair concise summary...
What did you do with Dep026 and step back from the keyboard, sir.
I’ve got to throw one of these in every once in awhile. Gotta keep you guys guessing :)
Eli was simply exercising his rights as a human being. Are you also in favor of slavery?
Let me get back to you on that. I would need to see what types of contracts most slaves were signing - years / face amount of contract / guaranteed money - and how that translates to 2004 dollars.
Just as a point of reference, Eli signed a modest 6 yr / $54 M / $20M guaranteed contract with the Giants in 2004, btw.
Finally, Eli graduated with a degree in marketing. So he wasn’t being forced to play football.
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In comment 14261236 Britt in VA said:
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Brady
Montana
Starr
Bradshaw
Manning (Eli).
And Eli can't hold a candle to any of them.
I would argue that Eli is better than Bradshaw and Starr, both of whom played with the greatest collection of All-Pros in the history of football, particularly Bradshaw. For Starr it was also true that he played for the greatest coach of all time (certainly at that time).
Right. Because neither Bradshaw or Starr were talented players and couldn’t possibly make others better.
From 2005 to 2008, The Giants won the division twice and made the playoffs every year. From 2005 to 2013, the Giants never had a losing record.
But the roster was already eroding in 2011, when they won the 2nd Super Bowl. That's what happens when the draft in 2008 was the only decent one for about a decade.
I'll mention it again - Rivers missed the playoffs 7 out of 8 seasons. Getting a pass for that and yet using a similar situation to say that Eli is the bane of all of our troubles is about as hypocritical a thing that gets posted on BBI. And it gets posted regularly.
Brady and Belicheck can overcome a spotty roster, but they are about it. When you look around the league, even the great QB's can't elevate their team under certain circumstances. Rodgers can't overcome a terrible roster. Heck, before this year, Brees missed the playoffs 4 out of the previous 6 years. The 7 highest paid QB's missed the postseason this year.
We like to romanticize the QB position - just look at all the posters thinking Nick Foles can go on to be a successful starter, but every QB struggles when their overall team is either less talented or injured. Marino and Fouts often missed the postseason. Brady as in most arguments is the outlier.
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The same posters with the same posts as always, except no dep. has someone called the hospitals and morgue?
I am defending Luck today! Geez even when I stay out of it, I get shit on!!! Haha
Just glad to see you are ok, my friend.
Rivers has the regular season production and should be in the Hall in my opinion, but his lack of tangible points of emphasis (rings, MVP, all-pros) make it is easier for voters to keep him out-- or, make it harder for some voters to separate him for a tier of efficient QBs in the passing era.
Rivers has the regular season production and should be in the Hall in my opinion, but his lack of tangible points of emphasis (rings, MVP, all-pros) make it is easier for voters to keep him out-- or, make it harder for some voters to separate him for a tier of efficient QBs in the passing era.
I think you will be proven right in this sense. While I believe there are voters who consider Eli overrated, I believe there are more who abhor the Patriots - from Belichick, to Brady, to SpyGate, to DeflateGate, etc. They are the evil empire. So taking down the evil empire twice carries big weight.
Additionally, the Mannings are football’s first family. NFL Royalty. Ole Arch and his try like hell days in New Orleans. Peyton is this admired football savant who does funny commercials. Cooper is the brother who had his dreams crushed by a spine condition. And awe shucks Eli did everything he could to follow in his big brother’s footsteps. And succeeded. I sincerely believe that carries some weight...
So when those factors are added, they will offset a regular season non-HoF career and push him over the line.
Bradshaw lost the starting QB job years into his career. Gilliam doesn't get benched in the middle of the season (while being 4-1-1 at the time) and Bradshaw would be remembered like some also-ran.
I think Eli SHOULD get in easily.
He wont get in EASILY. Too many people, including current and former players and many writers think Eli is average and got hot at the correct times. I vehemently disagree with this but I do accept that many people that vote do not like Eli.
Eli is a better QB than Rivers and I am glad we have had the privilege to watch Eli his entire career.
Ben might be a little better than Eli. I am very glad we drafted Eli over Ben. Eli is a MUCH better person. I am proud of Eli.
Eli is not better than Bradshaw or Stabler, either you were not old enough to watch or you are fucking stupid. Do not compare the stat lines of different era QBs.
Remember in '76, Bradshaw went 1-4 before rookie Kruczek went 6-0 and got them in the playoffs? Good times.
Still believe he was one of the more overrated QB's, although, he likely played a few games drunk or high and did well based on that metric.
Eli is not better than Bradshaw or Stabler, either you were not old enough to watch or you are fucking stupid. Do not compare the stat lines of different era QBs.
That made me laugh.
Indeed, there is a lot of "stupid" going around...
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Eli is not better than Bradshaw or Stabler, either you were not old enough to watch or you are fucking stupid. Do not compare the stat lines of different era QBs.
That made me laugh.
Indeed, there is a lot of "stupid" going around...
Didn't you compare eras earlier in this thread when you compared Rivers to Marino and Jim Kelly?
Strahan. A Hall of Farmer.
Two other great dlinemen - Tuck and Osi.
Another quality dlineman in JPP.
Barber. Who is being blackballed from the Hall of Fame.
4X Pro Bowle G Chris Snee.
OBJ. One of the most gifted receivers we’ve ever seen.
Amani Toomer - all time receiving leader for the Giants.
4X Pro Bowl TE Jeremy Shockey.
Dynamic RBs in Bradshaw and Jacobs.
Excellent recelvers like Cruz, Nicks, Smith, Manningham.
Possible HoF coach Coughlin.
Just to be clear...
Do you really want me to post how the Chargers have had more top ten defenses since both Manning and Rivers have been starters? Citing the likes of Manning's offensive talent is nice, but none of them (sans OBJ tbd) were as elite at their positions as Tomlinson and Gates.
Ben has had more talent around him than both but I hear people all the time say the guy (Rivers) wasn't given the chances his peers were. That's a lie.
No, thanks to Eli himself. McAdoo tried to preserve the silver-medal, position-specific streak. Eli broke it.
Unlike the fans, I'd like to believe that Eli understood he was not going to catch Favre and that neither of them actually hold the league record for consecutive games.
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and will probably pass Manning thanks to McAdoo.
No, thanks to Eli himself. McAdoo tried to preserve the silver-medal, position-specific streak. Eli broke it.
Unlike the fans, I'd like to believe that Eli understood he was not going to catch Favre and that neither of them actually hold the league record for consecutive games.
And Mcadoo told Webb he was starting the final 4 games. So McAdoo was ending it one way or another.
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You are delusional. Eli at the end of his career is one thing, rewriting his career is another. Sad when your own fan based are Assclowns.
.
Read my earlier post where I list the key regular season metrics. I suggest you familiarize yourself because I have.
Do you really want me to post how the Chargers have had more top ten defenses since both Manning and Rivers have been starters? Citing the likes of Manning's offensive talent is nice, but none of them (sans OBJ tbd) were as elite at their positions as Tomlinson and Gates.
Ben has had more talent around him than both but I hear people all the time say the guy (Rivers) wasn't given the chances his peers were. That's a lie.
Knock yourself out. I'll warn you it's likely not going to change my mind.
I cede the point that Rivers has played with very good players. But so as Eli. That's why he's been a part of two SB winning teams. So I refuse to give in, get in line, and play this sympathy game for Eli.
If anything, Eli has been just as responsible for missed chances as the rest of the organization. His regular seasons speak for themselves - largely inconsistent and filled with turnovers. And when the guy handling the ball the most commits turnovers, the outcome is typically on the wrong end.
Alas, that is the reality of the situation.
If anything, Eli has been just as responsible for missed chances as the rest of the organization. His regular seasons speak for themselves - largely inconsistent and filled with turnovers. And when the guy handling the ball the most commits turnovers, the outcome is typically on the wrong end.
Eli has consistently played below average defenses and run games for the majoirty of his career. So if its his fault he cant overcome that, then you have a point.
Makes perfect sense...
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In comment 14261244 Britt in VA said:
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and will probably pass Manning thanks to McAdoo.
No, thanks to Eli himself. McAdoo tried to preserve the silver-medal, position-specific streak. Eli broke it.
Unlike the fans, I'd like to believe that Eli understood he was not going to catch Favre and that neither of them actually hold the league record for consecutive games.
And Mcadoo told Webb he was starting the final 4 games. So McAdoo was ending it one way or another.
If I recall, Webb said he was told he was going to start the games. But if I also recall, Geno said he was told he was going to start games. I'm more inclined to believe the guy who actually did start a game.
run games
1. Ben - average rank is 15.5
2. Eli - average rank is 17.4
3. Riv - average rank is 20
Ben has had a top 10 rushing attack 4 times, top five 3 times
Eli has had a top 10 rushing attack 4 times, top five 2 times
Riv has had a top 10 rushing attack 2 times, top five 1 time
defenses
Ben - average is 7.5
Riv - average is 13
Eli - average is 19
Ben has had a top 10 defense 9 times, top 5 6 times
Riv has had a top 10 defense 5 times, top 5 2 times
Eli has had a top 10 defense 2 times, top 5 2 times
It's always been clear as day that Ben has had more talent around him than pretty much any QB in our lifetime. Rivers has had better defenses as a whole over Eli by a slim margin and Eli has had a better running game by a slim margin.
The difference why Eli has won more SBs than Rivers is because Eli has always been a better post season QB :)
If I recall, Webb said he was told he was going to start the games. But if I also recall, Geno said he was told he was going to start games. I'm more inclined to believe the guy who actually did start a game.
yeah we will never know who was told what. But Webb did come out publicly and say he was going to start the last 3 games. I was wrong when I said 4 initially.