Why is there so much consensus that Rivers is a lock for the Hall of Fame and Eli isn't. Their numbers are virtually equal and Eli has two rings. If you watched today's game against the Patriots , you see the results of a lack of protection.Rivers looked far worse than Eli did at any time this year.
They are both borderline. Rivers is less borderline, and has had a better career.
They are both borderline. Rivers is less borderline, and has had a better career.
Rivers has had a better career in what sense?
They are both borderline. Rivers is less borderline, and has had a better career.
You need to elaborate on this. What’s borderline
Because I think you're talking out your ass
This and why do we have to keep comparing the two ...
They are both borderline. Rivers is less borderline, and has had a better career.
Are you even a Giants fan?
Eli has better post season stats.
Aside from that all numbers are similar
Just for some perspective..
Ok, bw, please continue..:)
They are both borderline. Rivers is less borderline, and has had a better career.
Yep that 5-6 career playoff record with no rings is quite an accomplishment.
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No idea what numbers you are looking at...
They are both borderline. Rivers is less borderline, and has had a better career.
You need to elaborate on this. What’s borderline
Sure. Borderline to me is that it's not clear cut. It's going to take some real convincing in that debate room. Both Manning and Eli have pluses and minuses.
Rivers had had, IMV, HoF regular season career. But not enough playoff accomplishments.
Eli gets a positive bump for the two SB runs. But his regular seasons are more quantity than quality.
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No idea what numbers you are looking at...
They are both borderline. Rivers is less borderline, and has had a better career.
Are you even a Giants fan?
I am.
Next inane question.
Eli has better post season stats.
Aside from that all numbers are similar
All key regular season metric numbers are not similar - QBR, TD/INT ratio, standard QB rating, completion %, etc are all in favor of Rivers.
Too bad it didn't come to translate in the playoffs. Where the big boys play.
Montana
Starr
Bradshaw
Manning (Eli).
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In comment 14261206 bw in dc said:
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No idea what numbers you are looking at...
They are both borderline. Rivers is less borderline, and has had a better career.
Are you even a Giants fan?
I am.
Next inane question.
Just checking. You wouldn't rooting against the Cowboys yesterday. Today you're saying you'd take Rivers over Eli...
Just checking. You wouldn't rooting against the Cowboys yesterday. Today you're saying you'd take Rivers over Eli...
I didn't care about the Cowboys game. They don't bother me actually.
Now the Eagles are a completely different story. There isn't an organization and fan base I dislike more than them.
But thanks for trying to keep me honest to whatever BBI doctrine that exists for "true fandom"...
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Just checking. You wouldn't rooting against the Cowboys yesterday. Today you're saying you'd take Rivers over Eli...
I didn't care about the Cowboys game. They don't bother me actually.
Now the Eagles are a completely different story. There isn't an organization and fan base I dislike more than them.
But thanks for trying to keep me honest to whatever BBI doctrine that exists for "true fandom"...
No problem, brother.
Montana
Starr
Bradshaw
Manning (Eli).
And Eli can't hold a candle to any of them.
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Brady
Montana
Starr
Bradshaw
Manning (Eli).
And Eli can't hold a candle to any of them.
And Rivers isn't even in the conversation, so....
Read my earlier post where I list the key regular season metrics. I suggest you familiarize yourself because I have.
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Brady
Montana
Starr
Bradshaw
Manning (Eli).
And Eli can't hold a candle to any of them.
Terry Bradshaw? Eli is better.
One has hardware, and one doesn't. That's what separates the wheat from the chaff, whether you refuse to acknowledge it or not.
Terry Bradshaw? Eli is better.
Come on. Seriously? You just wrote that?
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In comment 14261236 Britt in VA said:
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Brady
Montana
Starr
Bradshaw
Manning (Eli).
And Eli can't hold a candle to any of them.
Terry Bradshaw? Eli is better.
And it’s not even close...:)
Link - ( New Window )
Link - ( New Window )
One has hardware, and one doesn't. That's what separates the wheat from the chaff, whether you refuse to acknowledge it or not.
I don't acknowledge that - correct. Eli has considerably more mistakes, less completion %, less QBR, etc.
I don't dwell on volume. That tells just a piece of a story.
Look, I said BOTH are borderline. So, see if you can digest that for a second.
Just looked it up. Jim Plunkett not only is a two time winner in the Super Bowl, he was MVP in both games. I thought you had me,
All time completion percentage and QBR? You're nuts.
Look at the top ten QB rating all time. Kirk Cousins is in the top 10.
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.
Just looked it up. Jim Plunkett not only is a two time winner in the Super Bowl, he was MVP in both games. I thought you had me,
Jim Plunkett did not win the MVP 2x.
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In comment 14261232 Britt in VA said:
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.
Just looked it up. Jim Plunkett not only is a two time winner in the Super Bowl, he was MVP in both games. I thought you had me,
Jim Plunkett did not win the MVP 2x.
Please check this link
Do I read this correctly - ( New Window )
All time completion percentage and QBR? You're nuts.
Look at the top ten QB rating all time. Kirk Cousins is in the top 10.
I'm comparing Eli directly to Rivers and their key stats, and even volume, are in favor of Rivers. You seem to be a bright guy. Why you can't absorb that is odd.
Just go to pro-football reference and do a side by side. My guess is you will be able to discern the differences without my help. But I don't mind helping if you struggle.
Super Bowl MVP (XV)
All key regular season metric numbers are not similar - QBR, TD/INT ratio, standard QB rating, completion %, etc are all in favor of Rivers.
QBR - Eli 84.1 Bradshaw 70.9
TD:INT - 360:236. 212:210
Comp %: 60.3%. 51.9%
Not to mention, Eli has nearly double the passing yards. Not arguing that TB, with 4 SB’s shouldn’t be in, but Eli is the better QB. It isn’t even arguable.
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All key regular season metric numbers are not similar - QBR, TD/INT ratio, standard QB rating, completion %, etc are all in favor of Rivers.
QBR - Eli 84.1 Bradshaw 70.9
TD:INT - 360:236. 212:210
Comp %: 60.3%. 51.9%
Not to mention, Eli has nearly double the passing yards. Not arguing that TB, with 4 SB’s shouldn’t be in, but Eli is the better QB. It isn’t even arguable.
Come on. Apples and oranges. Those are two different eras.
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All key regular season metric numbers are not similar - QBR, TD/INT ratio, standard QB rating, completion %, etc are all in favor of Rivers.
QBR - Eli 84.1 Bradshaw 70.9
TD:INT - 360:236. 212:210
Comp %: 60.3%. 51.9%
Not to mention, Eli has nearly double the passing yards. Not arguing that TB, with 4 SB’s shouldn’t be in, but Eli is the better QB. It isn’t even arguable.
God bless you but you should be banned. ;)
Uh - you do realize Bradshaw played QB when you needed a wheelchair to get on the plane after every game?
They played completely different era. Bradshaw had a better arm, was more mobile, and tougher. He was a GREAT big game QB.
I stand corrected. I looked up Super Bowl MVPs and he was only listed once.
Absolutely baffling.
Please check this link
Do I read this correctly - ( New Window )
Fox Sports is wrong, Marcus Allen was MVP for Plunkett’s 2nd SB win.
1st ballot is not even in the question and if it were up to me none of those guys are HOF
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All key regular season metric numbers are not similar - QBR, TD/INT ratio, standard QB rating, completion %, etc are all in favor of Rivers.
QBR - Eli 84.1 Bradshaw 70.9
TD:INT - 360:236. 212:210
Comp %: 60.3%. 51.9%
Not to mention, Eli has nearly double the passing yards. Not arguing that TB, with 4 SB’s shouldn’t be in, but Eli is the better QB. It isn’t even arguable.
Lmao you’re comparing stats from the 70’s to what these guys put up now.. If that’s the case I guess Kirk Cousins is better then Troy Aikman.. look at the stats
At this moment in time, Eli is in the top 10 in a lot of categories.......but a few years down the road he won't be.....he has had a lot of average years, without a real "stat" season......only had two seasons where he threw more than 30 td's.....I think he will make it, but it will take several voting years for it to happen......
However Eli has had two excellent playoff runs and has been a champion, twice.
Watching them play, I can't stand Rivers' noodle of an arm or the way he often sidearms his throws. But he's better reading the field than Eli and a better decision maker.
Re the Superbowls, the NFL has a video clip of the greatest SB plays of all time (IIRC 1 in each SB with a few "honorable mentions) and Eli has 2 and one honorable mention. There's no doubt Eli has come up much bigger in bigger games than Rivers. Partly IMO it's because Eli has always had the better arm by a good margin.
Just a quick edit:
"how many ways we can try to show a balanced view on Eli" thread.
At this moment in time, Eli is in the top 10 in a lot of categories.......but a few years down the road he won't be.....he has had a lot of average years, without a real "stat" season......only had two seasons where he threw more than 30 td's.....I think he will make it, but it will take several voting years for it to happen......
Absolutely neither is first year selection worthy.
Montana
Starr
Bradshaw
Manning (Eli).
You forgot Peyton Manning. And what about Aikman?
I must say this is one of the more bizarre things I have read here. Where I went to college - a Darden grad to be specific - is related to my football knowledge, or lack thereof.
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Brady
Montana
Starr
Bradshaw
Manning (Eli).
You forgot Peyton Manning. And what about Aikman?
Neither Peyton nor Aikman won the MVP award for the SB more than once.
IMO, and I bet for HOF voters too.
IMO, and I bet for HOF voters too.
Even looking at just SB wins, only 12 have won more than one, every one that's retired is in the HOF except Plunkett.
The others, Eli, Ben, and Brady, are still playing, or HOF bound already (Peyton).
Give it time. I'm sure someone is sitting at their keyboard right now debating whether to submit the comment that Eli is better than Montana...
His record is viewed much, much more favorably by Giants fans than by the national media or of course other fans.
Britt, do you think the SB MVP is such a huge milestone? If you could award it to a player or a unit, the Giants' DL might have won both times and Eli zero...
Eli is a 1st ballot HOF on this message board. Somehow the Giants have managed to lose 24 games the last 2 seasons with a 1st ballot HOF Qb
Make it two?
Add in two MVP awards?
Add in two game winning drives when the offense needed a TD with 2 minutes to go in the game?
Add in signature plays including one that's arguably the greatest play in SB history?
Add in that we beat the Patriots in both including 18-1?
Yeah, I think those things are factored in.
This above. The lack of objectivity about Eli, for about half the folks that post here frequently, is astounding, but fully understandable. Fan is short for fanatic, right?
They are both borderline. Rivers is less borderline, and has had a better career.
Two SuperBowl wins and the MVP in both games vs meaningless stats. Just stop smoking that medicinal shit. It’s not as safe as they say
But I'll just leave this here. This is Gary Meyer's take on it, and he's a notorious Giants basher, and he also is an actual HOF voter:
The anti-Eli argument: In the 12 other seasons of Manning’s career, not counting the one in progress, he has not won a single playoff game. He’s 8-0 in the Super Bowl seasons, but 0-4 otherwise. He has missed the playoffs six times. He has not been to the playoffs since 2011. His overall regular season record is an uninspiring 112-108.
Manning is not nearly as good as his older brother. He is not Tom Brady. He’s not as good as Drew Brees or Aaron Rodgers. But Brady is the only one of that group to win more Super Bowls than Eli, who has won as many as his brother and one more than Brees and Rodgers.
He has always thrown way too much interceptions, too often makes mistakes associated with players early in their career and although his career yards and touchdowns all easily place him in the top 10, he’s never been considered an elite quarterback. But he’s been durable and reliable. He started 210 consecutive games, the second longest streak for a quarterback in NFL history, until he was benched for one game in 2017. He has never missed a game because of injury.
How will all that play out in the Hall of Fame meeting room held the day before the Super Bowl?.....
Manning was running a close race with his draft classmate Ben Roethlisberger until recently. Big Ben is finishing up stronger. It will be to Manning’s benefit to retire before Brady, Rodgers, Brees and Roethlisberger and get in before they are eligible.
Should Eli get in?
All I can say is with the Super Bowl on the line twice, he came up big against great Patriots teams. And isn’t that how quarterbacks should be judged?
Link - ( New Window )
Make it two?
Add in two MVP awards?
Add in two game winning drives when the offense needed a TD with 2 minutes to go in the game?
Add in signature plays including one that's arguably the greatest play in SB history?
Add in that we beat the Patriots in both including 18-1?
Yeah, I think those things are factored in.
That's why my first post here was "I don't know what HOF voters factor in [their decisions]."
But I'd bet plenty at even money he doesn't make it on his first ballot. Unless he has a monster 2019 leading to a 3rd SB victory. I doubt that's in the cards.
And you'll see above, my opinion aligns with at least one actual HOF voter.
However Eli has had two excellent playoff runs and has been a champion, twice.
Watching them play, I can't stand Rivers' noodle of an arm or the way he often sidearms his throws. But he's better reading the field than Eli and a better decision maker.
Re the Superbowls, the NFL has a video clip of the greatest SB plays of all time (IIRC 1 in each SB with a few "honorable mentions) and Eli has 2 and one honorable mention. There's no doubt Eli has come up much bigger in bigger games than Rivers. Partly IMO it's because Eli has always had the better arm by a good margin.
Interesting post.
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No idea what numbers you are looking at...
They are both borderline. Rivers is less borderline, and has had a better career.
Two SuperBowl wins and the MVP in both games vs meaningless stats. Just stop smoking that medicinal shit. It’s not as safe as they say
Well, I guess by that "logic" Eli is a better QB than Rodgers. Since Rodgers has less SB wins and greater accomplishments in "meaningless" stats.
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In comment 14261206 bw in dc said:
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No idea what numbers you are looking at...
They are both borderline. Rivers is less borderline, and has had a better career.
Two SuperBowl wins and the MVP in both games vs meaningless stats. Just stop smoking that medicinal shit. It’s not as safe as they say
Well, I guess by that "logic" Eli is a better QB than Rodgers. Since Rodgers has less SB wins and greater accomplishments in "meaningless" stats.
Maybe you need to smoke more. Not less. You get to pock which stats are More imporantsnt and I don’t. This is just stupid shit. You’re entitled to your opinion. Issue You just keep on shitting on Gettleman Eli etc.
Become a Charger fan. From your posts it’s all about The numbers. Well those numbers mean of the game is the Super Bowl. You said Rivers has had the better career. That’s what I’m addressing. Sure if meaningless stats are the goal there are lots of great QBs. If the goal is to win the Super Bowl you’ve never sniffed one the guy w two of those has had the better career.
We are comparing Rivers and Eli. So if you want to start an new thread on Eli and Aaron knock yourself out.
I do agree, however, that being part of a SB team has significance. But it can't be over-weighted either.
For example, who would dare say Eli was a better QB than Marino. Or Jim Kelly. Or Fouts. All with no hardware.
Or Brees with only one. Or Favre with only one.
Or the equal of Elway who has two Or Peyton who has two.
There will be a lot of QB's when it's all said and done with stats.
Stafford, Matt Ryan, Mahomes, etc....
What's going to separate all those guys?
Maybe you need to smoke more. Not less. You get to pock which stats are More imporantsnt and I don’t. This is just stupid shit. You’re entitled to your opinion. Issue You just keep on shitting on Gettleman Eli etc.
Become a Charger fan. From your posts it’s all about The numbers. Well those numbers mean of the game is the Super Bowl. You said Rivers has had the better career. That’s what I’m addressing. Sure if meaningless stats are the goal there are lots of great QBs. If the goal is to win the Super Bowl you’ve never sniffed one the guy w two of those has had the better career.
We are comparing Rivers and Eli. So if you want to start an new thread on Eli and Aaron knock yourself out.
I was extrapolating out your baseline assumption. That's all.
A lot of guys will have stats. Only a handful will have the stats AND hardware.
Those are the only guys in the conversation.
Wheat. Chaff.
Actually, yes and it's not even close. Let's start with the fact that Bradshaw played with four hall of famers on offense and another four on defense (it's ridiculous that L.C. Greenwood is not in). Bradshaw was a 3-time pro bowler (I don't put a lot into pro bowls as Andy Dalton (19tds 17ints) and Matthew Stafford (22tds 11ints) were chosen in 2014 over Eli (30tds 14ints) as replacements). Bradshaw threw 24ints (1970), 22ints (1971), 20ints (1978), 25ints (1979), 22ints (1980). Think about that for a second, he threw 25 and 22 interceptions the years the Steelers won back to back Super Bowls. He has 212tds and 210ints for his career. And for a stat that shouldn't be adjusted for eras, he has 23 game-winning drives to Eli's 37.
Except for our idiot fan base, I doubt other fans try to devalue their own great players. But who knows, there are probably 49er fans who think the real count is Montana 3 Super Bowls to Steve Young's 1 as Super Bowl 23 was won by the defense that held the Bengals to 16 points regardless of whether Montana led them on a game-winning drive to win it. I seem to always hear that argument here about Super Bowls 42 and 46.
There will be a lot of QB's when it's all said and done with stats.
Stafford, Matt Ryan, Mahomes, etc....
What's going to separate all those guys?
Good question. It has to be a balance of both - regular season stats and post-season performance.
But as you know there are volume stats (yards, TDs) and stats where you can drill down to efficiency (completion %, TD/INT ratio, YPA, QBR, GWDs, etc). So, to me, there are places to go to examine just how productive a QB was in the regular season.
Furthermore, the regular season is 16 games. That's a large sample to evaluate production, and to give a QB credit for helping the team get to the playoffs. To give that less weight versus post-season hardware is poor analysis.
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It's a different era.
There will be a lot of QB's when it's all said and done with stats.
Stafford, Matt Ryan, Mahomes, etc....
What's going to separate all those guys?
Good question. It has to be a balance of both - regular season stats and post-season performance.
But as you know there are volume stats (yards, TDs) and stats where you can drill down to efficiency (completion %, TD/INT ratio, YPA, QBR, GWDs, etc). So, to me, there are places to go to examine just how productive a QB was in the regular season.
Furthermore, the regular season is 16 games. That's a large sample to evaluate production, and to give a QB credit for helping the team get to the playoffs. To give that less weight versus post-season hardware is poor analysis.
Is Matt Ryan a HOF'er? He's won the MVP award and actually been to a Superbowl. His stats are on pace to rival Rivers.
Who's the more likely candidate?
Phil only won one SB, but his play largely got the Giants to the Playoffs in 1990. And what about his performance in the SB itself? For efficiency unmatched to this day. 22/25 for 268 yards and 3 TDs. That performance earned a perfect QB rating.
If Eli had performed that well in either game the Giants would not have needed his last 3 minute heroics either time.
You only get to execute last minute heroics if you haven't played like the world's greatest QB most of the game.
And I don't mean that as a knock on what Eli did, but it's a hypothetical fact.
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Eli is better than Bradshaw? Seriously? Someone seriously said that? The lack of objectivity here is amazing.
Actually, yes and it's not even close. Let's start with the fact that Bradshaw played with four hall of famers on offense and another four on defense (it's ridiculous that L.C. Greenwood is not in). Bradshaw was a 3-time pro bowler (I don't put a lot into pro bowls as Andy Dalton (19tds 17ints) and Matthew Stafford (22tds 11ints) were chosen in 2014 over Eli (30tds 14ints) as replacements). Bradshaw threw 24ints (1970), 22ints (1971), 20ints (1978), 25ints (1979), 22ints (1980). Think about that for a second, he threw 25 and 22 interceptions the years the Steelers won back to back Super Bowls. He has 212tds and 210ints for his career. And for a stat that shouldn't be adjusted for eras, he has 23 game-winning drives to Eli's 37.
Except for our idiot fan base, I doubt other fans try to devalue their own great players. But who knows, there are probably 49er fans who think the real count is Montana 3 Super Bowls to Steve Young's 1 as Super Bowl 23 was won by the defense that held the Bengals to 16 points regardless of whether Montana led them on a game-winning drive to win it. I seem to always hear that argument here about Super Bowls 42 and 46.
Do you have any understanding about the history of the game?
Like the rules for instance. When Bradshaw played cornerbacks, linebackers, safeties could maul receivers past five yards. It was a much more difficult era to complete passes and it was easier to intercept the ball.
Simms in SB XXI. - ( New Window )
I do agree, however, that being part of a SB team has significance. But it can't be over-weighted either.
For example, who would dare say Eli was a better QB than Marino. Or Jim Kelly. Or Fouts. All with no hardware.
Or Brees with only one. Or Favre with only one.
Or the equal of Elway who has two Or Peyton who has two.
Speaking of weighing things, you seem to be very black and white when it comes to devaluing the data points that support Eli and then nuanced and opaque when you argue the other side. I think Eli is a better QB than Jim Kelly, but that's just me, and we're talking about your love for Rivers. Hey by the way, I can't wait to hear those legendary stories about the time Rivers beat the numbers 1 and 2 seeds on the road to get to the Super Bowl to beat the Pats - TWICE. All the while out playing or playing to a standstill each of those QBs to get those championships. In other words, the guy wasn't just along for the ride.
Think about that when you pine for Rivers as the guy you wish was leading the Giants all these years. When you talk about how the last 7 years of Eli's career have been a disaster, do you include Reese picking Flowers and Apple in the top 10 in back to back years? Forget about his later round picks. Some franchises never recover from whiffs like that. But I guess that was on Eli.
I think FMiC pointed out all the playoffs Rivers has missed. But hey, when you get to play in sunny San Diego most of your career, play in what for a significant portion of your career has been a cupcake division, and play with arguably two top 5 players in NFL history at their respective positions (Tomlinson and Gates), you get to be viewed as the better player, I guess.
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In comment 14261463 FranchiseQB said:
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Eli is better than Bradshaw? Seriously? Someone seriously said that? The lack of objectivity here is amazing.
Actually, yes and it's not even close. Let's start with the fact that Bradshaw played with four hall of famers on offense and another four on defense (it's ridiculous that L.C. Greenwood is not in). Bradshaw was a 3-time pro bowler (I don't put a lot into pro bowls as Andy Dalton (19tds 17ints) and Matthew Stafford (22tds 11ints) were chosen in 2014 over Eli (30tds 14ints) as replacements). Bradshaw threw 24ints (1970), 22ints (1971), 20ints (1978), 25ints (1979), 22ints (1980). Think about that for a second, he threw 25 and 22 interceptions the years the Steelers won back to back Super Bowls. He has 212tds and 210ints for his career. And for a stat that shouldn't be adjusted for eras, he has 23 game-winning drives to Eli's 37.
Except for our idiot fan base, I doubt other fans try to devalue their own great players. But who knows, there are probably 49er fans who think the real count is Montana 3 Super Bowls to Steve Young's 1 as Super Bowl 23 was won by the defense that held the Bengals to 16 points regardless of whether Montana led them on a game-winning drive to win it. I seem to always hear that argument here about Super Bowls 42 and 46.
Do you have any understanding about the history of the game?
Like the rules for instance. When Bradshaw played cornerbacks, linebackers, safeties could maul receivers past five yards. It was a much more difficult era to complete passes and it was easier to intercept the ball.
No I just pulled those stats out of my ass and mentioned L.C. Greenwood because I like Miller Lite commercials. Of course I do. The point I was making, is Bradshaw played on significantly better teams with much higher quality teammates including at rb and wr. There's no way Bradshaw is leading the 07 and 11 Giants to Super Bowl wins. That's my point.
Yes Eli is better...and I am not going by the stats because it was a different era..
Across the board Bradshaw had some of the best talent supporting him...HOF talent...probably some of the best teams in NFL history...
I’m sick of the defense argument. The defense let up a TD drive to give up the lead with 2 mins. They lost it.
Eli Manning is the first QB in NFL history to need a TD to win the Super Bowl and get it.
He delivered 2 touchdown drives in the 4Q
He has twice delivered game winning TD drives when his team was losing
Any QB who did these things would win MVP
Tom Brady had 145 passing yards and a TD in his first SB and won MVP and no one questions his MVP.
Eli earned and deserved to win his SB MVPs.
Phil only won one SB, but his play largely got the Giants to the Playoffs in 1990. And what about his performance in the SB itself? For efficiency unmatched to this day. 22/25 for 268 yards and 3 TDs. That performance earned a perfect QB rating.
If Eli had performed that well in either game the Giants would not have needed his last 3 minute heroics either time.
You only get to execute last minute heroics if you haven't played like the world's greatest QB most of the game.
And I don't mean that as a knock on what Eli did, but it's a hypothetical fact.
You're that elusive fan I was looking for that would actually knock Joe Montana for the game-winning drive and Super Bowl 23. In fairness, I assume you would also discount Roethlisberger's gw-drive as well.
Also, you do realize that Eli was 30 for 40 in SB 46 and is number four all time for completion % (behind Simms, Brees, and Montana) in a Super Bowl game? Also, the Pats, both years, were better than the '86 Broncos, right? I mean this fan base is the only one that makes you look like you're arguing against your (my) favorite team of all time ('86 Giants) in any sport.
Speaking of weighing things, you seem to be very black and white when it comes to devaluing the data points that support Eli and then nuanced and opaque when you argue the other side. I think Eli is a better QB than Jim Kelly, but that's just me, and we're talking about your love for Rivers. Hey by the way, I can't wait to hear those legendary stories about the time Rivers beat the numbers 1 and 2 seeds on the road to get to the Super Bowl to beat the Pats - TWICE. All the while out playing or playing to a standstill each of those QBs to get those championships. In other words, the guy wasn't just along for the ride.
Think about that when you pine for Rivers as the guy you wish was leading the Giants all these years. When you talk about how the last 7 years of Eli's career have been a disaster, do you include Reese picking Flowers and Apple in the top 10 in back to back years? Forget about his later round picks. Some franchises never recover from whiffs like that. But I guess that was on Eli.
I think FMiC pointed out all the playoffs Rivers has missed. But hey, when you get to play in sunny San Diego most of your career, play in what for a significant portion of your career has been a cupcake division, and play with arguably two top 5 players in NFL history at their respective positions (Tomlinson and Gates), you get to be viewed as the better player, I guess.
I give Eli credit for those eight weeks in his career where he was outstanding in those two playoff runs. Of course, there are the other 230+ weeks to assess.
As for the other comments, like me just add this. I don't pine for Rivers. The OP brought up the topic. And it's an interesting topic because they are draft peers. Furthermore, I said early on I consider both Eli and Rivers borderline candidates for the HoF. So this narrative that I am suggesting Rivers is a slam dunk choice is silly.
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In comment 14261463 FranchiseQB said:
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Eli is better than Bradshaw? Seriously? Someone seriously said that? The lack of objectivity here is amazing.
Actually, yes and it's not even close. Let's start with the fact that Bradshaw played with four hall of famers on offense and another four on defense (it's ridiculous that L.C. Greenwood is not in). Bradshaw was a 3-time pro bowler (I don't put a lot into pro bowls as Andy Dalton (19tds 17ints) and Matthew Stafford (22tds 11ints) were chosen in 2014 over Eli (30tds 14ints) as replacements). Bradshaw threw 24ints (1970), 22ints (1971), 20ints (1978), 25ints (1979), 22ints (1980). Think about that for a second, he threw 25 and 22 interceptions the years the Steelers won back to back Super Bowls. He has 212tds and 210ints for his career. And for a stat that shouldn't be adjusted for eras, he has 23 game-winning drives to Eli's 37.
Except for our idiot fan base, I doubt other fans try to devalue their own great players. But who knows, there are probably 49er fans who think the real count is Montana 3 Super Bowls to Steve Young's 1 as Super Bowl 23 was won by the defense that held the Bengals to 16 points regardless of whether Montana led them on a game-winning drive to win it. I seem to always hear that argument here about Super Bowls 42 and 46.
Do you have any understanding about the history of the game?
Like the rules for instance. When Bradshaw played cornerbacks, linebackers, safeties could maul receivers past five yards. It was a much more difficult era to complete passes and it was easier to intercept the ball.
Actually the five yard rule was instituted in 1978. Bradshaw played a chunk of his career where you could maul the WR from the line of scrimmage. Never mind the rules that protect the QB.
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Speaking of weighing things, you seem to be very black and white when it comes to devaluing the data points that support Eli and then nuanced and opaque when you argue the other side. I think Eli is a better QB than Jim Kelly, but that's just me, and we're talking about your love for Rivers. Hey by the way, I can't wait to hear those legendary stories about the time Rivers beat the numbers 1 and 2 seeds on the road to get to the Super Bowl to beat the Pats - TWICE. All the while out playing or playing to a standstill each of those QBs to get those championships. In other words, the guy wasn't just along for the ride.
Think about that when you pine for Rivers as the guy you wish was leading the Giants all these years. When you talk about how the last 7 years of Eli's career have been a disaster, do you include Reese picking Flowers and Apple in the top 10 in back to back years? Forget about his later round picks. Some franchises never recover from whiffs like that. But I guess that was on Eli.
I think FMiC pointed out all the playoffs Rivers has missed. But hey, when you get to play in sunny San Diego most of your career, play in what for a significant portion of your career has been a cupcake division, and play with arguably two top 5 players in NFL history at their respective positions (Tomlinson and Gates), you get to be viewed as the better player, I guess.
I give Eli credit for those eight weeks in his career where he was outstanding in those two playoff runs. Of course, there are the other 230+ weeks to assess.
As for the other comments, like me just add this. I don't pine for Rivers. The OP brought up the topic. And it's an interesting topic because they are draft peers. Furthermore, I said early on I consider both Eli and Rivers borderline candidates for the HoF. So this narrative that I am suggesting Rivers is a slam dunk choice is silly.
There you go again with the black and white when it comes to devaluing data points that support the quality of his career. His career comes down to eight weeks? Was it his fault when he was second in the league in tds (Brady beat him by one td) that the team was 6-10 because it couldn't stop a nose bleed? I mean the guy threw 6tds with no ints and still lost the game.
Yes the man has his faults as a QB, he's led the league in interceptions three times and in my estimation he hasn't held the organization's feet to the fire and was too much of a team player/get-along-to-go-along/not ruffle feathers type, but where is the balance from a supposed Giants fan? Credit for eight weeks?
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In comment 14261715 BobbyJohnson4thand17 said:
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In comment 14261463 FranchiseQB said:
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Eli is better than Bradshaw? Seriously? Someone seriously said that? The lack of objectivity here is amazing.
Actually, yes and it's not even close. Let's start with the fact that Bradshaw played with four hall of famers on offense and another four on defense (it's ridiculous that L.C. Greenwood is not in). Bradshaw was a 3-time pro bowler (I don't put a lot into pro bowls as Andy Dalton (19tds 17ints) and Matthew Stafford (22tds 11ints) were chosen in 2014 over Eli (30tds 14ints) as replacements). Bradshaw threw 24ints (1970), 22ints (1971), 20ints (1978), 25ints (1979), 22ints (1980). Think about that for a second, he threw 25 and 22 interceptions the years the Steelers won back to back Super Bowls. He has 212tds and 210ints for his career. And for a stat that shouldn't be adjusted for eras, he has 23 game-winning drives to Eli's 37.
Except for our idiot fan base, I doubt other fans try to devalue their own great players. But who knows, there are probably 49er fans who think the real count is Montana 3 Super Bowls to Steve Young's 1 as Super Bowl 23 was won by the defense that held the Bengals to 16 points regardless of whether Montana led them on a game-winning drive to win it. I seem to always hear that argument here about Super Bowls 42 and 46.
Do you have any understanding about the history of the game?
Like the rules for instance. When Bradshaw played cornerbacks, linebackers, safeties could maul receivers past five yards. It was a much more difficult era to complete passes and it was easier to intercept the ball.
No I just pulled those stats out of my ass and mentioned L.C. Greenwood because I like Miller Lite commercials. Of course I do. The point I was making, is Bradshaw played on significantly better teams with much higher quality teammates including at rb and wr. There's no way Bradshaw is leading the 07 and 11 Giants to Super Bowl wins. That's my point.
You're on crack dude. Bradshaw was better than Eli, significantly better. The first two SBs Bradshaw was a game manager. The second two he was awesome, one of the best players in the league. He played a higher level than Eli ever played at. Not close. There were other QBs who were significantly better than Eli who played in that era as well.. Stabler, Fouts, Staubach and Tarkenton.
Will Eli make the HoF, I have no idea. My guess is yes, eventually. Does he deserve it? I say yes cause I'm a Giants fan. Most of the rest of America thinks Eli sucks. Is he a better bet to make the HoF than Rivers? I think it is close. Most people, experts included, view Rivers as the better QB. But Eli has the two great SB wins. Probably a push.
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All key regular season metric numbers are not similar - QBR, TD/INT ratio, standard QB rating, completion %, etc are all in favor of Rivers.
QBR - Eli 84.1 Bradshaw 70.9
TD:INT - 360:236. 212:210
Comp %: 60.3%. 51.9%
Not to mention, Eli has nearly double the passing yards. Not arguing that TB, with 4 SB’s shouldn’t be in, but Eli is the better QB. It isn’t even arguable.
Playing QB in Bradshaw's era was far different, you could actually mug QBs and receivers so his stats will obviously not look as good. You can't use the stats as an argument because defenses were allowed to play defense in Bradshaw's era
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No idea what numbers you are looking at...
They are both borderline. Rivers is less borderline, and has had a better career.
Are you even a Giants fan?
It really is a question I wonder about. There aren't that many people that spend so much time trying to rip the team in some form or another.
It used to be the old contention that Mara's were born with silver spoons up their asses. We used to be told they were cheap until it was pointed out that the Giants consistently are near the top of the league for non-player compensation. We were still told that, but it has been one of many lines of bullshit thrown around. Again - focusing on the negative instead of anything else.
The Fassel years were fun. We actually had to read posts that Dan Snyder was a lead we needed to follow. How accorsi was a Mara yes man and spent more time talking about Unitas than concentrating on the Giants. Then bw basically disappeared for the majority of Coughlin's time here. You can draw your own conclusion why, but I'm thinking that continuing to throw shade on the team while they were making the playoffs consistently didn't play well.
Lately, it has been focusing on equal parts Eli, Mara, Gettleman and Shurmur. To the beat of almost every single fucking day.
It is an interesting question, because it really must suck to be a fan and spend so much time and energy refuting positive comments from other fans. Maybe it is just the overriding desire to use Jints Central constantly. Maybe there's a prop bet between him and Mark S that he can use it every day for a decade.
Enjoy the steak knives...
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In comment 14261206 bw in dc said:
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No idea what numbers you are looking at...
They are both borderline. Rivers is less borderline, and has had a better career.
Are you even a Giants fan?
It really is a question I wonder about. There aren't that many people that spend so much time trying to rip the team in some form or another.
It used to be the old contention that Mara's were born with silver spoons up their asses. We used to be told they were cheap until it was pointed out that the Giants consistently are near the top of the league for non-player compensation. We were still told that, but it has been one of many lines of bullshit thrown around. Again - focusing on the negative instead of anything else.
The Fassel years were fun. We actually had to read posts that Dan Snyder was a lead we needed to follow. How accorsi was a Mara yes man and spent more time talking about Unitas than concentrating on the Giants. Then bw basically disappeared for the majority of Coughlin's time here. You can draw your own conclusion why, but I'm thinking that continuing to throw shade on the team while they were making the playoffs consistently didn't play well.
Lately, it has been focusing on equal parts Eli, Mara, Gettleman and Shurmur. To the beat of almost every single fucking day.
It is an interesting question, because it really must suck to be a fan and spend so much time and energy refuting positive comments from other fans. Maybe it is just the overriding desire to use Jints Central constantly. Maybe there's a prop bet between him and Mark S that he can use it every day for a decade.
Enjoy the steak knives...
It's called an opinion. Some of us are football fans as well as Giants fans and just believing bullshit is a waste of time. We would rather be truthful about what we see rather than spout nonsense and pat each other on the back for deluding ourselves.
How can anybody take his opinion on the subject matter as objective?
He flat out said on this thread, and is arguing, that Phillip Rivers has had a better career than Manning. That's just crazy when you think about it at face value. Whose career do you think Rivers would rather have?
his dupe that he forgot to change accounts from :)
Here’s where there not close Eli Manning career record 116-114 barely over 500 Phil River 118-90 well over 500 and Big Ben blows both away 144-69 ... Yet people think Eli is a 1st ballot HOF somehow the Giants managed to lose all these games with a HOF QB
It’s also hard to use the argument that Rivers has to go through New England, because Eli twice climbed that mountain. Eli also should have been an All pro in 2011 as well as co mvp, he elevated a team that might have won 4 games that year with just any other guy back there (that’s an aside and irrelevant to argument, but wanted to point out nonetheless).
At the end of the day, they are both getting in as is Ben, it was just an outstanding qb class.
30.
Out of 40.
And, won the game of course too.
That's pretty impressive.
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In comment 14261724 bw in dc said:
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In comment 14261715 BobbyJohnson4thand17 said:
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In comment 14261463 FranchiseQB said:
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Eli is better than Bradshaw? Seriously? Someone seriously said that? The lack of objectivity here is amazing.
Actually, yes and it's not even close. Let's start with the fact that Bradshaw played with four hall of famers on offense and another four on defense (it's ridiculous that L.C. Greenwood is not in). Bradshaw was a 3-time pro bowler (I don't put a lot into pro bowls as Andy Dalton (19tds 17ints) and Matthew Stafford (22tds 11ints) were chosen in 2014 over Eli (30tds 14ints) as replacements). Bradshaw threw 24ints (1970), 22ints (1971), 20ints (1978), 25ints (1979), 22ints (1980). Think about that for a second, he threw 25 and 22 interceptions the years the Steelers won back to back Super Bowls. He has 212tds and 210ints for his career. And for a stat that shouldn't be adjusted for eras, he has 23 game-winning drives to Eli's 37.
Except for our idiot fan base, I doubt other fans try to devalue their own great players. But who knows, there are probably 49er fans who think the real count is Montana 3 Super Bowls to Steve Young's 1 as Super Bowl 23 was won by the defense that held the Bengals to 16 points regardless of whether Montana led them on a game-winning drive to win it. I seem to always hear that argument here about Super Bowls 42 and 46.
Do you have any understanding about the history of the game?
Like the rules for instance. When Bradshaw played cornerbacks, linebackers, safeties could maul receivers past five yards. It was a much more difficult era to complete passes and it was easier to intercept the ball.
No I just pulled those stats out of my ass and mentioned L.C. Greenwood because I like Miller Lite commercials. Of course I do. The point I was making, is Bradshaw played on significantly better teams with much higher quality teammates including at rb and wr. There's no way Bradshaw is leading the 07 and 11 Giants to Super Bowl wins. That's my point.
You're on crack dude. Bradshaw was better than Eli, significantly better. The first two SBs Bradshaw was a game manager. The second two he was awesome, one of the best players in the league. He played a higher level than Eli ever played at. Not close. There were other QBs who were significantly better than Eli who played in that era as well.. Stabler, Fouts, Staubach and Tarkenton.
Will Eli make the HoF, I have no idea. My guess is yes, eventually. Does he deserve it? I say yes cause I'm a Giants fan. Most of the rest of America thinks Eli sucks. Is he a better bet to make the HoF than Rivers? I think it is close. Most people, experts included, view Rivers as the better QB. But Eli has the two great SB wins. Probably a push.
I'll put Eli's 2011 against any Bradshaw season. Especially if you read the part about playing with four other hall of famers on offense and another four on defense. I'll give you everyone except Bradshaw and Stabler. I don't give a shit what the rest of America thinks, I'm just trying to figure out the cray cray with this fanbase. According to you crack is mine, wtf is yours?
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In comment 14261777 BobbyJohnson4thand17 said:
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In comment 14261724 bw in dc said:
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In comment 14261715 BobbyJohnson4thand17 said:
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In comment 14261463 FranchiseQB said:
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Eli is better than Bradshaw? Seriously? Someone seriously said that? The lack of objectivity here is amazing.
Actually, yes and it's not even close. Let's start with the fact that Bradshaw played with four hall of famers on offense and another four on defense (it's ridiculous that L.C. Greenwood is not in). Bradshaw was a 3-time pro bowler (I don't put a lot into pro bowls as Andy Dalton (19tds 17ints) and Matthew Stafford (22tds 11ints) were chosen in 2014 over Eli (30tds 14ints) as replacements). Bradshaw threw 24ints (1970), 22ints (1971), 20ints (1978), 25ints (1979), 22ints (1980). Think about that for a second, he threw 25 and 22 interceptions the years the Steelers won back to back Super Bowls. He has 212tds and 210ints for his career. And for a stat that shouldn't be adjusted for eras, he has 23 game-winning drives to Eli's 37.
Except for our idiot fan base, I doubt other fans try to devalue their own great players. But who knows, there are probably 49er fans who think the real count is Montana 3 Super Bowls to Steve Young's 1 as Super Bowl 23 was won by the defense that held the Bengals to 16 points regardless of whether Montana led them on a game-winning drive to win it. I seem to always hear that argument here about Super Bowls 42 and 46.
Do you have any understanding about the history of the game?
Like the rules for instance. When Bradshaw played cornerbacks, linebackers, safeties could maul receivers past five yards. It was a much more difficult era to complete passes and it was easier to intercept the ball.
No I just pulled those stats out of my ass and mentioned L.C. Greenwood because I like Miller Lite commercials. Of course I do. The point I was making, is Bradshaw played on significantly better teams with much higher quality teammates including at rb and wr. There's no way Bradshaw is leading the 07 and 11 Giants to Super Bowl wins. That's my point.
You're on crack dude. Bradshaw was better than Eli, significantly better. The first two SBs Bradshaw was a game manager. The second two he was awesome, one of the best players in the league. He played a higher level than Eli ever played at. Not close. There were other QBs who were significantly better than Eli who played in that era as well.. Stabler, Fouts, Staubach and Tarkenton.
Will Eli make the HoF, I have no idea. My guess is yes, eventually. Does he deserve it? I say yes cause I'm a Giants fan. Most of the rest of America thinks Eli sucks. Is he a better bet to make the HoF than Rivers? I think it is close. Most people, experts included, view Rivers as the better QB. But Eli has the two great SB wins. Probably a push.
I'll put Eli's 2011 against any Bradshaw season. Especially if you read the part about playing with four other hall of famers on offense and another four on defense. I'll give you everyone except Bradshaw and Stabler. I don't give a shit what the rest of America thinks, I'm just trying to figure out the cray cray with this fanbase. According to you crack is mine, wtf is yours?
Both Bradshaw and Stabler were significantly better than Eli. Stabler went to 5 straight AFC championship games, won an MVP and was AP player of the year another season that was record-setting at the time.
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but Eli should go in first. Their regular season stats are pretty close but Eli's postseason record is obviously far superior to Rivers
Here’s where there not close Eli Manning career record 116-114 barely over 500 Phil River 118-90 well over 500 and Big Ben blows both away 144-69 ... Yet people think Eli is a 1st ballot HOF somehow the Giants managed to lose all these games with a HOF QB
Hey buddy, did Eli draft Ewreck Flowers and Anti-Eli Apple with top 10 picks in back-to-back years? How many of the players drafted by the Giants from 2012 are still with the team? But yeah, that all comes down to who was at QB. So if as a QB you miss out on leading the league in passing tds to Brady by one and still end up 6-10 that was on the QB? The STUPID here really is thick.
My position has always been I didn’t like the stunt Eli et al pulled at the 2004 draft. It reaked of entitlement. Feel the same about Elway.
Peyton didn’t have a problem playing for the hideous Colts and their imbecile owner. Why the Mannings would suddenly have this desire to protect Eli against the awful Chargers was very hypocritical.
It’s also hard to use the argument that Rivers has to go through New England, because Eli twice climbed that mountain. Eli also should have been an All pro in 2011 as well as co mvp, he elevated a team that might have won 4 games that year with just any other guy back there (that’s an aside and irrelevant to argument, but wanted to point out nonetheless).
At the end of the day, they are both getting in as is Ben, it was just an outstanding qb class.
Eli should’ve been MVP and All Pro? says who? You? You can’t re write history with would’ve could’ve should’ve.. 16 years and never been a league MVP never once 1st or 2nd team All pro .. We have a HOF QB but somehow managed to lose all these games... The Giants can’t even win there own division for crying out loud.. the last time they won it was 2011 that’s 8 seasons ago.. the stinking Redskins have won it twice since then
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Both Bradshaw and Stabler were significantly better than Eli. Stabler went to 5 straight AFC championship games, won an MVP and was AP player of the year another season that was record-setting at the time.
Yeah they played on better teams, but how does someone (Stabler) significantly better throw 28 career more ints than tds? Oh yeah, it was significantly (your word choice) harder to throw a touchdown than interception back then. Look, I know you love the '70s, it was a great era, but please do some calibration. Quick question Giants fan, which QB threw the most yards (4,933) during a season they won the Super Bowl? Before you come back with that's some cherry-picked stat, think about that, in the history of the NFL, no QB has thrown for more yards in a single season and won the Super Bowl.
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In comment 14262057 dpinzow said:
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but Eli should go in first. Their regular season stats are pretty close but Eli's postseason record is obviously far superior to Rivers
Here’s where there not close Eli Manning career record 116-114 barely over 500 Phil River 118-90 well over 500 and Big Ben blows both away 144-69 ... Yet people think Eli is a 1st ballot HOF somehow the Giants managed to lose all these games with a HOF QB
Hey buddy, did Eli draft Ewreck Flowers and Anti-Eli Apple with top 10 picks in back-to-back years? How many of the players drafted by the Giants from 2012 are still with the team? But yeah, that all comes down to who was at QB. So if as a QB you miss out on leading the league in passing tds to Brady by one and still end up 6-10 that was on the QB? The STUPID here really is thick.
The Giants are barely over 500 over 16 years... yeah the QB play has nothing to do with that
How about leaving it as both have a good chance, Eli’s playoff success gives him a leg up, irrespective of your thoughts on who may be the better overall qb? We have debated this ad nauseum.
Here is a different take: are the Giants being done a favor by considering the end of the Eli era sooner than the Chargers or Steelers with their qbs? these teams qb’s will probably start regressing and the odds of a deep playoff run for either team will become more remote, yet i guarantee both teams will plan on at least two more years of their qbs playing. Both teams will probably be in the market by 2021 and both too good to take Trevor Lawrence😀. Hopefully the Giants can find their guy before the pats saints steelers and chargers all enter the market.....
I am defending Luck today! Geez even when I stay out of it, I get shit on!!! Haha
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In comment 14262121 GoBlue6599 said:
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In comment 14262057 dpinzow said:
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but Eli should go in first. Their regular season stats are pretty close but Eli's postseason record is obviously far superior to Rivers
Here’s where there not close Eli Manning career record 116-114 barely over 500 Phil River 118-90 well over 500 and Big Ben blows both away 144-69 ... Yet people think Eli is a 1st ballot HOF somehow the Giants managed to lose all these games with a HOF QB
Hey buddy, did Eli draft Ewreck Flowers and Anti-Eli Apple with top 10 picks in back-to-back years? How many of the players drafted by the Giants from 2012 are still with the team? But yeah, that all comes down to who was at QB. So if as a QB you miss out on leading the league in passing tds to Brady by one and still end up 6-10 that was on the QB? The STUPID here really is thick.
The Giants are barely over 500 over 16 years... yeah the QB play has nothing to do with that
I didn't say the QB had nothing to do with it. You're the one saying he has EVERYTHING to do with it. If you get better acquainted with them, facts can actually be your friend.
My position has always been I didn’t like the stunt Eli et al pulled at the 2004 draft. It reaked of entitlement. Feel the same about Elway.
Peyton didn’t have a problem playing for the hideous Colts and their imbecile owner. Why the Mannings would suddenly have this desire to protect Eli against the awful Chargers was very hypocritical.
For real?? So you hold a grudge against a decision not made by Eli 15 years later?
Clearly, that move is indicative of who he is, was and has become.
Excellent evaluation
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In comment 14262141 BobbyJohnson4thand17 said:
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In comment 14262121 GoBlue6599 said:
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In comment 14262057 dpinzow said:
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but Eli should go in first. Their regular season stats are pretty close but Eli's postseason record is obviously far superior to Rivers
Here’s where there not close Eli Manning career record 116-114 barely over 500 Phil River 118-90 well over 500 and Big Ben blows both away 144-69 ... Yet people think Eli is a 1st ballot HOF somehow the Giants managed to lose all these games with a HOF QB
Hey buddy, did Eli draft Ewreck Flowers and Anti-Eli Apple with top 10 picks in back-to-back years? How many of the players drafted by the Giants from 2012 are still with the team? But yeah, that all comes down to who was at QB. So if as a QB you miss out on leading the league in passing tds to Brady by one and still end up 6-10 that was on the QB? The STUPID here really is thick.
The Giants are barely over 500 over 16 years... yeah the QB play has nothing to do with that
I didn't say the QB had nothing to do with it. You're the one saying he has EVERYTHING to do with it. If you get better acquainted with them, facts can actually be your friend.
I never said It was all Eli. Look contrary to what many assume I think Eli has had a damn good career and the Giants record with him is a shame but you can’t re write history and the facts are the facts if you have a QB playing at a HOF level you don’t lose as many games as the Giants have
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In comment 14262129 BobbyJohnson4thand17 said:
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Both Bradshaw and Stabler were significantly better than Eli. Stabler went to 5 straight AFC championship games, won an MVP and was AP player of the year another season that was record-setting at the time.
Yeah they played on better teams, but how does someone (Stabler) significantly better throw 28 career more ints than tds? Oh yeah, it was significantly (your word choice) harder to throw a touchdown than interception back then. Look, I know you love the '70s, it was a great era, but please do some calibration. Quick question Giants fan, which QB threw the most yards (4,933) during a season they won the Super Bowl? Before you come back with that's some cherry-picked stat, think about that, in the history of the NFL, no QB has thrown for more yards in a single season and won the Super Bowl.
Dude.. it's not because I love the 70's. For about 5 years Stabler was the best QB in the NFL. Eli was never the best QB in the NFL. Stabler's 1976, not the year he won MVP, was one of the all-time great QB seasons. His 66.7 comp pct was unheard of in that era. His yards per attempt was unsurpassed for 22 years. And his TD pct was unsurpassed for 28 years. Stabler's peak was far beyond Eli. Of course rules changes dramatically altered QB stats, starting with the 5 yard rule in 78 and then rules to protect the QB which have stiffened throughout the years.
Is Matt Ryan a HOF'er? He's won the MVP award and actually been to a Superbowl. His stats are on pace to rival Rivers.
Who's the more likely candidate?
Ryan would get my vote. Very good numbers both statistically and W/L wise. Has an MVP.
Got his team to a SB, too. Played great, was on the verge of winning, was going to be the MVP...
But then insanity kicked in.
How about leaving it as both have a good chance, Eli’s playoff success gives him a leg up, irrespective of your thoughts on who may be the better overall qb? We have debated this ad nauseum.
Here is a different take: are the Giants being done a favor by considering the end of the Eli era sooner than the Chargers or Steelers with their qbs? these teams qb’s will probably start regressing and the odds of a deep playoff run for either team will become more remote, yet i guarantee both teams will plan on at least two more years of their qbs playing. Both teams will probably be in the market by 2021 and both too good to take Trevor Lawrence😀. Hopefully the Giants can find their guy before the pats saints steelers and chargers all enter the market.....
Gettleman cannot afford Reese type mistakes at the top of the draft. People can debate Saquon v. QB, but you just can't miss like Reese did with Flowers and Apple. On the I take Eli/Bradshaw take, you do know there are Steelers fans who debate this based on the non-ridiculous fact that Bradshaw played with the greatest collection of talent on both sides of the ball (Lombardi's Packers can make a serious counterargument) in NFL history.
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Is Matt Ryan a HOF'er? He's won the MVP award and actually been to a Superbowl. His stats are on pace to rival Rivers.
Because he graciously signed with ATL post 2008 Draft??
How much weight does that hold?
Who's the more likely candidate?
Ryan would get my vote. Very good numbers both statistically and W/L wise. Has an MVP.
Got his team to a SB, too. Played great, was on the verge of winning, was going to be the MVP...
But then insanity kicked in.
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Is Matt Ryan a HOF'er? He's won the MVP award and actually been to a Superbowl. His stats are on pace to rival Rivers.
Who's the more likely candidate?
Ryan would get my vote. Very good numbers both statistically and W/L wise. Has an MVP.
Got his team to a SB, too. Played great, was on the verge of winning, was going to be the MVP...
But then insanity kicked in.
There’s a lot to like with Ryan, but...plays half his games in a dime
For real?? So you hold a grudge against a decision not made by Eli 15 years later?
Clearly, that move is indicative of who he is, was and has become.
Excellent evaluation
I didn’t bring it up. Britt did.
My focus on this thread has been solely on Eli’s on the field performance.
My position has always been I didn’t like the stunt Eli et al pulled at the 2004 draft. It reaked of entitlement. Feel the same about Elway.
Peyton didn’t have a problem playing for the hideous Colts and their imbecile owner. Why the Mannings would suddenly have this desire to protect Eli against the awful Chargers was very hypocritical.
Probably because Archie didn't want both of his sons playing for imbecilic owners
Neither will get in first ballot unless both have something surprising to end their careers
You can’t bring up Elis regular season record than discount the SBs. Wins/losses are team achievements as are SBs.
You can bring up being SB MVP because being the best player in the biggest game absolutely means something.
Statistically they are both at an all time level.
They both have had amazing years.
They played great in at least two different eras of football.
You can go on and on. They both played at the highest level one could play for 15 seasons+. How many QBs can say that?
The answer is the ones in the HOF.
True. But his outdoor stats are very solid.
114 TDs / 52 INTs, 64% completion, 92 Rating, 63 QBR, one game over .500.
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I don’t hate Eli. I wish that would end.
My position has always been I didn’t like the stunt Eli et al pulled at the 2004 draft. It reaked of entitlement. Feel the same about Elway.
Peyton didn’t have a problem playing for the hideous Colts and their imbecile owner. Why the Mannings would suddenly have this desire to protect Eli against the awful Chargers was very hypocritical.
Probably because Archie didn't want both of his sons playing for imbecilic owners
That made me laugh... ; )
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In comment 14262143 bw in dc said:
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I don’t hate Eli. I wish that would end.
My position has always been I didn’t like the stunt Eli et al pulled at the 2004 draft. It reaked of entitlement. Feel the same about Elway.
Peyton didn’t have a problem playing for the hideous Colts and their imbecile owner. Why the Mannings would suddenly have this desire to protect Eli against the awful Chargers was very hypocritical.
Probably because Archie didn't want both of his sons playing for imbecilic owners
That made me laugh... ; )
Dean Spanos, although better than Jim Irsay, isn't exactly one of the owners players like to play for
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In comment 14262134 FranchiseQB said:
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In comment 14262129 BobbyJohnson4thand17 said:
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Both Bradshaw and Stabler were significantly better than Eli. Stabler went to 5 straight AFC championship games, won an MVP and was AP player of the year another season that was record-setting at the time.
Yeah they played on better teams, but how does someone (Stabler) significantly better throw 28 career more ints than tds? Oh yeah, it was significantly (your word choice) harder to throw a touchdown than interception back then. Look, I know you love the '70s, it was a great era, but please do some calibration. Quick question Giants fan, which QB threw the most yards (4,933) during a season they won the Super Bowl? Before you come back with that's some cherry-picked stat, think about that, in the history of the NFL, no QB has thrown for more yards in a single season and won the Super Bowl.
Dude.. it's not because I love the 70's. For about 5 years Stabler was the best QB in the NFL. Eli was never the best QB in the NFL. Stabler's 1976, not the year he won MVP, was one of the all-time great QB seasons. His 66.7 comp pct was unheard of in that era. His yards per attempt was unsurpassed for 22 years. And his TD pct was unsurpassed for 28 years. Stabler's peak was far beyond Eli. Of course rules changes dramatically altered QB stats, starting with the 5 yard rule in 78 and then rules to protect the QB which have stiffened throughout the years.
In fairness Franchise, you actually did something I can respect. You backed up your argument with facts. Now, that does mean that you are taking the position that Stabler's 5 peak years, and not counting his '78 season in Oakland and his terrible years in Houston and New Orleans, is "significantly" better than Eli's entire career. Again, that's a hard sell.
The Chargers made Leaf into an immature, unreliable, undisciplined clown?
Exactly how?
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In comment 14262160 BobbyJohnson4thand17 said:
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In comment 14262134 FranchiseQB said:
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In comment 14262129 BobbyJohnson4thand17 said:
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Both Bradshaw and Stabler were significantly better than Eli. Stabler went to 5 straight AFC championship games, won an MVP and was AP player of the year another season that was record-setting at the time.
Yeah they played on better teams, but how does someone (Stabler) significantly better throw 28 career more ints than tds? Oh yeah, it was significantly (your word choice) harder to throw a touchdown than interception back then. Look, I know you love the '70s, it was a great era, but please do some calibration. Quick question Giants fan, which QB threw the most yards (4,933) during a season they won the Super Bowl? Before you come back with that's some cherry-picked stat, think about that, in the history of the NFL, no QB has thrown for more yards in a single season and won the Super Bowl.
Dude.. it's not because I love the 70's. For about 5 years Stabler was the best QB in the NFL. Eli was never the best QB in the NFL. Stabler's 1976, not the year he won MVP, was one of the all-time great QB seasons. His 66.7 comp pct was unheard of in that era. His yards per attempt was unsurpassed for 22 years. And his TD pct was unsurpassed for 28 years. Stabler's peak was far beyond Eli. Of course rules changes dramatically altered QB stats, starting with the 5 yard rule in 78 and then rules to protect the QB which have stiffened throughout the years.
In fairness Franchise, you actually did something I can respect. You backed up your argument with facts. Now, that does mean that you are taking the position that Stabler's 5 peak years, and not counting his '78 season in Oakland and his terrible years in Houston and New Orleans, is "significantly" better than Eli's entire career. Again, that's a hard sell.
I can respect the argument that Eli's longevity evens it up a bit. Of course part of that is that QBs in the 70's had much shorter careers. Many had major knee problems that QB's in the 80's to now didn't have at the same rate. Look I love Eli. He gets my HoF vote. But I worry that he won't get in so fast. Outside of NY there is strong sentiment that Eli got lucky.
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Bill Polian, one of the smartest talent managers in NFL history drafted Peyton. History suggested the Polian knew how to build winning team. The Chargers had demonstrated through Ryan leaf, who had a connection to Peyton Manning, that they were not a franchise that would treat Eli well. If I were the Manning family, and Eli was my son or brother, I would have done exactly the same thing given the information available.
The Chargers made Leaf into an immature, unreliable, undisciplined clown?
Exactly how?
Leaf was an immateur clown. Rivers became an immature clown. Hard for us to know why from the outside in...but the Peyton knew Ryan, and the Mannings clearly decided that the Chargers were not going to work and protected Eli. As a family...I say “good for them”
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In comment 14262195 FranchiseQB said:
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In comment 14262160 BobbyJohnson4thand17 said:
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In comment 14262134 FranchiseQB said:
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In comment 14262129 BobbyJohnson4thand17 said:
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Both Bradshaw and Stabler were significantly better than Eli. Stabler went to 5 straight AFC championship games, won an MVP and was AP player of the year another season that was record-setting at the time.
Yeah they played on better teams, but how does someone (Stabler) significantly better throw 28 career more ints than tds? Oh yeah, it was significantly (your word choice) harder to throw a touchdown than interception back then. Look, I know you love the '70s, it was a great era, but please do some calibration. Quick question Giants fan, which QB threw the most yards (4,933) during a season they won the Super Bowl? Before you come back with that's some cherry-picked stat, think about that, in the history of the NFL, no QB has thrown for more yards in a single season and won the Super Bowl.
Dude.. it's not because I love the 70's. For about 5 years Stabler was the best QB in the NFL. Eli was never the best QB in the NFL. Stabler's 1976, not the year he won MVP, was one of the all-time great QB seasons. His 66.7 comp pct was unheard of in that era. His yards per attempt was unsurpassed for 22 years. And his TD pct was unsurpassed for 28 years. Stabler's peak was far beyond Eli. Of course rules changes dramatically altered QB stats, starting with the 5 yard rule in 78 and then rules to protect the QB which have stiffened throughout the years.
In fairness Franchise, you actually did something I can respect. You backed up your argument with facts. Now, that does mean that you are taking the position that Stabler's 5 peak years, and not counting his '78 season in Oakland and his terrible years in Houston and New Orleans, is "significantly" better than Eli's entire career. Again, that's a hard sell.
I can respect the argument that Eli's longevity evens it up a bit. Of course part of that is that QBs in the 70's had much shorter careers. Many had major knee problems that QB's in the 80's to now didn't have at the same rate. Look I love Eli. He gets my HoF vote. But I worry that he won't get in so fast. Outside of NY there is strong sentiment that Eli got lucky.
Fair enough. That's where facts have to become a part of a balanced and fair discussion. He'll have the stats (there will be those who don't like his efficiency (i.e., interceptions and completion %) and that's fair) and the hardware, and then to rebut the "lucky" argument someone will have to point to the following path taken to two championships, including dueling or outdueling the QBs in the following games:
1) 13-3 No. 1 seed on the road;
2) 13-3 No. 2 seed on the road;
3) 18-0 AFC champion on a neutral site;
4) 15-1 No. 1 seed on the road;
5) 13-3 No. 2 seed on the road;
6) 13-3 AFC champion on a neutral site.
Or like bw in dc says, a good 6 or so weeks.
The giants made a pick in barkley that was correct but NYG cannot and should not let risk stop them from using a premium pick on a qb they like going forward.
I’d like to know who these Steelers fans are that consider Bradshaw the rbeneficiary of a loaded team. having lived in pittsburgh in the 90s most of the talk was how swan and stallworth were the overrated ones undeserving of hof.....
And i haven’t met a Steelers fan who considers Eli superior to Ben let alone Terry.
But, would be cool if they all went in together.
A simply great QB draft class.......I think we all can agree with that.
All three franchises got what they wanted..........
Leaf was an immateur clown. Rivers became an immature clown. Hard for us to know why from the outside in...but the Peyton knew Ryan, and the Mannings clearly decided that the Chargers were not going to work and protected Eli. As a family...I say “good for them”
Rivers is a devout Christian married to the same woman since he was 20. They have nine children. The guy is great in the community.
Why is he immature? Because he yells and screams on the field?
Like Tom Brady?
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In comment 14262236 BobbyJohnson4thand17 said:
Fair enough. That's where facts have to become a part of a balanced and fair discussion. He'll have the stats (there will be those who don't like his efficiency (i.e., interceptions and completion %) and that's fair) and the hardware, and then to rebut the "lucky" argument someone will have to point to the following path taken to two championships, including dueling or outdueling the QBs in the following games:
1) 13-3 No. 1 seed on the road;
2) 13-3 No. 2 seed on the road;
3) 18-0 AFC champion on a neutral site;
4) 15-1 No. 1 seed on the road;
5) 13-3 No. 2 seed on the road;
6) 13-3 AFC champion on a neutral site.
Or like bw in dc says, a good 6 or so weeks.
The two playoff runs were epic. No question about it. Eli played out of his mind during those runs and beat some of the best teams and some of the best players of the era. He will always be a legend in NY sports because of them. Like I said... he gets my vote.
The giants made a pick in barkley that was correct but NYG cannot and should not let risk stop them from using a premium pick on a qb they like going forward.
I’d like to know who these Steelers fans are that consider Bradshaw the rbeneficiary of a loaded team. having lived in pittsburgh in the 90s most of the talk was how swan and stallworth were the overrated ones undeserving of hof.....
And i haven’t met a Steelers fan who considers Eli superior to Ben let alone Terry.
Whoa Nelly. Slow down there. Since when is saying that DG can't afford Reese type mistakes translate to the risks associated with picking a QB that ends up as a bust? William Joseph was drafted number 25 in the first round. The point I was making is that drafting mistakes in the Top 10 don't happen in a vacuum and have long-term effects. How different would the team be if Gurley was picked over Flowers? How would that have impacted the current QB situation?
That's interesting so now Bradshaw carried Swan and Stallworth to those championships and Super Bowls. Good to know people in Pittsburgh in the '90s, at least the ones you overheard or engaged with, are as clueless as a lot of the Giants fans today. Hey, they're entitled to their own opinions, just not their own facts.
regarding your excessive hyperbole and calling people clueless, any routine list of top all time 25 qbs includes Bradshaw.
swan while athletic and a victim of a great running game and defense never had more than 880 yards receiving. His peer comparisons on pro football reference are to the likes of al toon. meanwhile bradshaw consistently ranked highly amongst his peers and was one of the best players in the game in 78-79.
Not even something to debate.
regarding your excessive hyperbole and calling people clueless, any routine list of top all time 25 qbs includes Bradshaw.
swan while athletic and a victim of a great running game and defense never had more than 880 yards receiving. His peer comparisons on pro football reference are to the likes of al toon. meanwhile bradshaw consistently ranked highly amongst his peers and was one of the best players in the game in 78-79.
Excessive hyperbole seems a little redundant. I think we're talking past each other on the draft issue. My point was simply that DG's non-QB picks will impact our ability to get the right QB and he can't miss on those non-QB picks.
Of course Bradshaw is included in any Top 25 QB list by the sheer fact that he's a four-time SB winner. The point is he played on a stacked team and in no way should Swann and Stallworth be diminished to make an argument for Bradshaw. It's almost like what Eli's detractors do when they poo poo his two SB runs and any other accomplishments (e.g., the defense won SB 42). You can criticize him in a balanced, nuanced way and be more persuasive than some of the "clueless" statements I see bandied about around here.
[quote] And sorry if I missed it. But Eli has played his career in NY which is sort of known for the bad weather on occasion. Rivers is in one of the best climates in the world. Folks over time that makes a difference. I have nothing but respect for the career Rivers has had. But if you say Rivers should be in (and he should be) then you can’t say Eli should not be. It’s not even a debate. BTW how was the weather today?
Not even something to debate. [/quote
Thanks, Giant John. I actually mentioned it a few comments back:
I think FMiC pointed out all the playoffs Rivers has missed. But hey, when you get to play in sunny San Diego most of your career, play in what for a significant portion of your career has been a cupcake division, and play with arguably two top 5 players in NFL history at their respective positions (Tomlinson and Gates), you get to be viewed as the better player, I guess.
Strahan. A Hall of Farmer.
Two other great dlinemen - Tuck and Osi.
Another quality dlineman in JPP.
Barber. Who is being blackballed from the Hall of Fame.
4X Pro Bowle G Chris Snee.
OBJ. One of the most gifted receivers we’ve ever seen.
Amani Toomer - all time receiving leader for the Giants.
4X Pro Bowl TE Jeremy Shockey.
Dynamic RBs in Bradshaw and Jacobs.
Excellent recelvers like Cruz, Nicks, Smith, Manningham.
Possible HoF coach Coughlin.
Just to be clear...
Strahan. A Hall of Farmer.
Two other great dlinemen - Tuck and Osi.
Another quality dlineman in JPP.
Barber. Who is being blackballed from the Hall of Fame.
4X Pro Bowle G Chris Snee.
OBJ. One of the most gifted receivers we’ve ever seen.
Amani Toomer - all time receiving leader for the Giants.
4X Pro Bowl TE Jeremy Shockey.
Dynamic RBs in Bradshaw and Jacobs.
Excellent recelvers like Cruz, Nicks, Smith, Manningham.
Possible HoF coach Coughlin.
Just to be clear...
Thus, Tiki should be in and Eli should not?
Strahan. A Hall of Farmer.
Two other great dlinemen - Tuck and Osi.
Another quality dlineman in JPP.
Barber. Who is being blackballed from the Hall of Fame.
4X Pro Bowle G Chris Snee.
OBJ. One of the most gifted receivers we’ve ever seen.
Amani Toomer - all time receiving leader for the Giants.
4X Pro Bowl TE Jeremy Shockey.
Dynamic RBs in Bradshaw and Jacobs.
Excellent recelvers like Cruz, Nicks, Smith, Manningham.
Possible HoF coach Coughlin.
Just to be clear...
Actually, you left out Plaxico, Barkley, and Tyree, who has to count simply for the helmet catch. Where are those arguably two Top 5 players of all-time at their respective positions (Tomlinson and Gates) Eli played with on offense again? Now Tiki is being blackballed? Wow.
Remember when SD flipped that 2005 first round pick from the Eli trade into Shawne "Lights Out" Merriman, the next LT? How good were Vincent Jackson and Michael Turner? How good are Joey Bosa, Derwin James, Melvin Ingram, Keenan Allen, Mike Williams, Melvin Gordon, Mike Pouncey, Hunter Henry, etc.? Yeah, Rivers has had to drag his teams and take them to new heights against seemingly insurmountable challenges in the playoffs. Wait, he couldn't lead his team past the weakest Patriots team he's ever faced?
Are you serious With this post the Giants won 5 games and didn’t even qualify for the playoffs nonetheless win a playoff game something the Giants haven’t done in a long time. Since 2011 it’s now 2019
Actually, you left out Plaxico, Barkley, and Tyree, who has to count simply for the helmet catch. Where are those arguably two Top 5 players of all-time at their respective positions (Tomlinson and Gates) Eli played with on offense again? Now Tiki is being blackballed? Wow.
Remember when SD flipped that 2005 first round pick from the Eli trade into Shawne "Lights Out" Merriman, the next LT? How good were Vincent Jackson and Michael Turner? How good are Joey Bosa, Derwin James, Melvin Ingram, Keenan Allen, Mike Williams, Melvin Gordon, Mike Pouncey, Hunter Henry, etc.? Yeah, Rivers has had to drag his teams and take them to new heights against seemingly insurmountable challenges in the playoffs. Wait, he couldn't lead his team past the weakest Patriots team he's ever faced?
So if Eli wasn’t scared to play in San Diego he could have played with better talent?
Are you serious With this post the Giants won 5 games and didn’t even qualify for the playoffs nonetheless win a playoff game something the Giants haven’t done in a long time. Since 2011 it’s now 2019 [/quote]
This is about how you and others prefer Rivers, not Eli's recent track record. Riddle me this, when was the last time Rivers was in the playoffs before this year? You know something Rivers has never done let alone done in a long time? I think you know the answer to that.
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Actually, you left out Plaxico, Barkley, and Tyree, who has to count simply for the helmet catch. Where are those arguably two Top 5 players of all-time at their respective positions (Tomlinson and Gates) Eli played with on offense again? Now Tiki is being blackballed? Wow.
Remember when SD flipped that 2005 first round pick from the Eli trade into Shawne "Lights Out" Merriman, the next LT? How good were Vincent Jackson and Michael Turner? How good are Joey Bosa, Derwin James, Melvin Ingram, Keenan Allen, Mike Williams, Melvin Gordon, Mike Pouncey, Hunter Henry, etc.? Yeah, Rivers has had to drag his teams and take them to new heights against seemingly insurmountable challenges in the playoffs. Wait, he couldn't lead his team past the weakest Patriots team he's ever faced?
So if Eli wasn’t scared to play in San Diego he could have played with better talent?
And won more Super Bowls than Rivers would have won in NY since he would not only have played with better talent, he would have played most of his career in an easier division. But that's not the point of your little exercise, right?
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In comment [url=index.php?mode=2&thread=Wait, he couldn't lead his team past the weakest Patriots team he's ever faced?
Are you serious With this post the Giants won 5 games and didn’t even qualify for the playoffs nonetheless win a playoff game something the Giants haven’t done in a long time. Since 2011 it’s now 2019
This is about how you and others prefer Rivers, not Eli's recent track record. Riddle me this, when was the last time Rivers was in the playoffs before this year? You know something Rivers has never done let alone done in a long time? I think you know the answer to that. [/quote]
You have me wrong I don’t prefer Rivers.. IMO all 3 are pretty equal, all have had very good careers. Asking who is better is like splitting hairs.. maybe Big Ben cause he’s more mobile then the other 2. I don’t think none of the 3 belong in the HOF they are hall of very good material IMO
Neither will get in first ballot unless both have something surprising to end their careers
You can’t bring up Elis regular season record than discount the SBs. Wins/losses are team achievements as are SBs.
You can bring up being SB MVP because being the best player in the biggest game absolutely means something.
Statistically they are both at an all time level.
They both have had amazing years.
They played great in at least two different eras of football.
You can go on and on. They both played at the highest level one could play for 15 seasons+. How many QBs can say that?
The answer is the ones in the HOF.
Great fair concise summary...
What did you do with Dep026 and step back from the keyboard, sir.
Not even something to debate.
If you bring up the weather excuse for Eli then how come his per game etficiency stats (and W-L record) suck compared with his bad weather performing contemporaries Rodgers, Brady, and Roethlisberger?
I am just concerned that 5+ years of therapy isn’t enough...
My position has always been I didn’t like the stunt Eli et al pulled at the 2004 draft. It reaked of entitlement. Feel the same about Elway.
Peyton didn’t have a problem playing for the hideous Colts and their imbecile owner. Why the Mannings would suddenly have this desire to protect Eli against the awful Chargers was very hypocritical.
Eli was simply exercising his rights as a human being. Are you also in favor of slavery?
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Brady
Montana
Starr
Bradshaw
Manning (Eli).
And Eli can't hold a candle to any of them.
I would argue that Eli is better than Bradshaw and Starr, both of whom played with the greatest collection of All-Pros in the history of football, particularly Bradshaw. For Starr it was also true that he played for the greatest coach of all time (certainly at that time).
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Both are getting in
Neither will get in first ballot unless both have something surprising to end their careers
You can’t bring up Elis regular season record than discount the SBs. Wins/losses are team achievements as are SBs.
You can bring up being SB MVP because being the best player in the biggest game absolutely means something.
Statistically they are both at an all time level.
They both have had amazing years.
They played great in at least two different eras of football.
You can go on and on. They both played at the highest level one could play for 15 seasons+. How many QBs can say that?
The answer is the ones in the HOF.
Great fair concise summary...
What did you do with Dep026 and step back from the keyboard, sir.
I’ve got to throw one of these in every once in awhile. Gotta keep you guys guessing :)
Eli was simply exercising his rights as a human being. Are you also in favor of slavery?
Let me get back to you on that. I would need to see what types of contracts most slaves were signing - years / face amount of contract / guaranteed money - and how that translates to 2004 dollars.
Just as a point of reference, Eli signed a modest 6 yr / $54 M / $20M guaranteed contract with the Giants in 2004, btw.
Finally, Eli graduated with a degree in marketing. So he wasn’t being forced to play football.
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In comment 14261236 Britt in VA said:
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Brady
Montana
Starr
Bradshaw
Manning (Eli).
And Eli can't hold a candle to any of them.
I would argue that Eli is better than Bradshaw and Starr, both of whom played with the greatest collection of All-Pros in the history of football, particularly Bradshaw. For Starr it was also true that he played for the greatest coach of all time (certainly at that time).
Right. Because neither Bradshaw or Starr were talented players and couldn’t possibly make others better.
From 2005 to 2008, The Giants won the division twice and made the playoffs every year. From 2005 to 2013, the Giants never had a losing record.
But the roster was already eroding in 2011, when they won the 2nd Super Bowl. That's what happens when the draft in 2008 was the only decent one for about a decade.
I'll mention it again - Rivers missed the playoffs 7 out of 8 seasons. Getting a pass for that and yet using a similar situation to say that Eli is the bane of all of our troubles is about as hypocritical a thing that gets posted on BBI. And it gets posted regularly.
Brady and Belicheck can overcome a spotty roster, but they are about it. When you look around the league, even the great QB's can't elevate their team under certain circumstances. Rodgers can't overcome a terrible roster. Heck, before this year, Brees missed the playoffs 4 out of the previous 6 years. The 7 highest paid QB's missed the postseason this year.
We like to romanticize the QB position - just look at all the posters thinking Nick Foles can go on to be a successful starter, but every QB struggles when their overall team is either less talented or injured. Marino and Fouts often missed the postseason. Brady as in most arguments is the outlier.
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The same posters with the same posts as always, except no dep. has someone called the hospitals and morgue?
I am defending Luck today! Geez even when I stay out of it, I get shit on!!! Haha
Just glad to see you are ok, my friend.
Rivers has the regular season production and should be in the Hall in my opinion, but his lack of tangible points of emphasis (rings, MVP, all-pros) make it is easier for voters to keep him out-- or, make it harder for some voters to separate him for a tier of efficient QBs in the passing era.
Rivers has the regular season production and should be in the Hall in my opinion, but his lack of tangible points of emphasis (rings, MVP, all-pros) make it is easier for voters to keep him out-- or, make it harder for some voters to separate him for a tier of efficient QBs in the passing era.
I think you will be proven right in this sense. While I believe there are voters who consider Eli overrated, I believe there are more who abhor the Patriots - from Belichick, to Brady, to SpyGate, to DeflateGate, etc. They are the evil empire. So taking down the evil empire twice carries big weight.
Additionally, the Mannings are football’s first family. NFL Royalty. Ole Arch and his try like hell days in New Orleans. Peyton is this admired football savant who does funny commercials. Cooper is the brother who had his dreams crushed by a spine condition. And awe shucks Eli did everything he could to follow in his big brother’s footsteps. And succeeded. I sincerely believe that carries some weight...
So when those factors are added, they will offset a regular season non-HoF career and push him over the line.
Bradshaw lost the starting QB job years into his career. Gilliam doesn't get benched in the middle of the season (while being 4-1-1 at the time) and Bradshaw would be remembered like some also-ran.
I think Eli SHOULD get in easily.
He wont get in EASILY. Too many people, including current and former players and many writers think Eli is average and got hot at the correct times. I vehemently disagree with this but I do accept that many people that vote do not like Eli.
Eli is a better QB than Rivers and I am glad we have had the privilege to watch Eli his entire career.
Ben might be a little better than Eli. I am very glad we drafted Eli over Ben. Eli is a MUCH better person. I am proud of Eli.
Eli is not better than Bradshaw or Stabler, either you were not old enough to watch or you are fucking stupid. Do not compare the stat lines of different era QBs.
Remember in '76, Bradshaw went 1-4 before rookie Kruczek went 6-0 and got them in the playoffs? Good times.
Still believe he was one of the more overrated QB's, although, he likely played a few games drunk or high and did well based on that metric.
Eli is not better than Bradshaw or Stabler, either you were not old enough to watch or you are fucking stupid. Do not compare the stat lines of different era QBs.
That made me laugh.
Indeed, there is a lot of "stupid" going around...
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Eli is not better than Bradshaw or Stabler, either you were not old enough to watch or you are fucking stupid. Do not compare the stat lines of different era QBs.
That made me laugh.
Indeed, there is a lot of "stupid" going around...
Didn't you compare eras earlier in this thread when you compared Rivers to Marino and Jim Kelly?
Strahan. A Hall of Farmer.
Two other great dlinemen - Tuck and Osi.
Another quality dlineman in JPP.
Barber. Who is being blackballed from the Hall of Fame.
4X Pro Bowle G Chris Snee.
OBJ. One of the most gifted receivers we’ve ever seen.
Amani Toomer - all time receiving leader for the Giants.
4X Pro Bowl TE Jeremy Shockey.
Dynamic RBs in Bradshaw and Jacobs.
Excellent recelvers like Cruz, Nicks, Smith, Manningham.
Possible HoF coach Coughlin.
Just to be clear...
Do you really want me to post how the Chargers have had more top ten defenses since both Manning and Rivers have been starters? Citing the likes of Manning's offensive talent is nice, but none of them (sans OBJ tbd) were as elite at their positions as Tomlinson and Gates.
Ben has had more talent around him than both but I hear people all the time say the guy (Rivers) wasn't given the chances his peers were. That's a lie.
No, thanks to Eli himself. McAdoo tried to preserve the silver-medal, position-specific streak. Eli broke it.
Unlike the fans, I'd like to believe that Eli understood he was not going to catch Favre and that neither of them actually hold the league record for consecutive games.
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and will probably pass Manning thanks to McAdoo.
No, thanks to Eli himself. McAdoo tried to preserve the silver-medal, position-specific streak. Eli broke it.
Unlike the fans, I'd like to believe that Eli understood he was not going to catch Favre and that neither of them actually hold the league record for consecutive games.
And Mcadoo told Webb he was starting the final 4 games. So McAdoo was ending it one way or another.
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You are delusional. Eli at the end of his career is one thing, rewriting his career is another. Sad when your own fan based are Assclowns.
.
Read my earlier post where I list the key regular season metrics. I suggest you familiarize yourself because I have.
Do you really want me to post how the Chargers have had more top ten defenses since both Manning and Rivers have been starters? Citing the likes of Manning's offensive talent is nice, but none of them (sans OBJ tbd) were as elite at their positions as Tomlinson and Gates.
Ben has had more talent around him than both but I hear people all the time say the guy (Rivers) wasn't given the chances his peers were. That's a lie.
Knock yourself out. I'll warn you it's likely not going to change my mind.
I cede the point that Rivers has played with very good players. But so as Eli. That's why he's been a part of two SB winning teams. So I refuse to give in, get in line, and play this sympathy game for Eli.
If anything, Eli has been just as responsible for missed chances as the rest of the organization. His regular seasons speak for themselves - largely inconsistent and filled with turnovers. And when the guy handling the ball the most commits turnovers, the outcome is typically on the wrong end.
Alas, that is the reality of the situation.
If anything, Eli has been just as responsible for missed chances as the rest of the organization. His regular seasons speak for themselves - largely inconsistent and filled with turnovers. And when the guy handling the ball the most commits turnovers, the outcome is typically on the wrong end.
Eli has consistently played below average defenses and run games for the majoirty of his career. So if its his fault he cant overcome that, then you have a point.
Makes perfect sense...
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In comment 14261244 Britt in VA said:
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and will probably pass Manning thanks to McAdoo.
No, thanks to Eli himself. McAdoo tried to preserve the silver-medal, position-specific streak. Eli broke it.
Unlike the fans, I'd like to believe that Eli understood he was not going to catch Favre and that neither of them actually hold the league record for consecutive games.
And Mcadoo told Webb he was starting the final 4 games. So McAdoo was ending it one way or another.
If I recall, Webb said he was told he was going to start the games. But if I also recall, Geno said he was told he was going to start games. I'm more inclined to believe the guy who actually did start a game.
run games
1. Ben - average rank is 15.5
2. Eli - average rank is 17.4
3. Riv - average rank is 20
Ben has had a top 10 rushing attack 4 times, top five 3 times
Eli has had a top 10 rushing attack 4 times, top five 2 times
Riv has had a top 10 rushing attack 2 times, top five 1 time
defenses
Ben - average is 7.5
Riv - average is 13
Eli - average is 19
Ben has had a top 10 defense 9 times, top 5 6 times
Riv has had a top 10 defense 5 times, top 5 2 times
Eli has had a top 10 defense 2 times, top 5 2 times
It's always been clear as day that Ben has had more talent around him than pretty much any QB in our lifetime. Rivers has had better defenses as a whole over Eli by a slim margin and Eli has had a better running game by a slim margin.
The difference why Eli has won more SBs than Rivers is because Eli has always been a better post season QB :)
If I recall, Webb said he was told he was going to start the games. But if I also recall, Geno said he was told he was going to start games. I'm more inclined to believe the guy who actually did start a game.
yeah we will never know who was told what. But Webb did come out publicly and say he was going to start the last 3 games. I was wrong when I said 4 initially.