Why is there so much consensus that Rivers is a lock for the Hall of Fame and Eli isn't. Their numbers are virtually equal and Eli has two rings. If you watched today's game against the Patriots , you see the results of a lack of protection.Rivers looked far worse than Eli did at any time this year.
Please check this link
Do I read this correctly - ( New Window )
Fox Sports is wrong, Marcus Allen was MVP for Plunkett’s 2nd SB win.
1st ballot is not even in the question and if it were up to me none of those guys are HOF
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All key regular season metric numbers are not similar - QBR, TD/INT ratio, standard QB rating, completion %, etc are all in favor of Rivers.
QBR - Eli 84.1 Bradshaw 70.9
TD:INT - 360:236. 212:210
Comp %: 60.3%. 51.9%
Not to mention, Eli has nearly double the passing yards. Not arguing that TB, with 4 SB’s shouldn’t be in, but Eli is the better QB. It isn’t even arguable.
Lmao you’re comparing stats from the 70’s to what these guys put up now.. If that’s the case I guess Kirk Cousins is better then Troy Aikman.. look at the stats
At this moment in time, Eli is in the top 10 in a lot of categories.......but a few years down the road he won't be.....he has had a lot of average years, without a real "stat" season......only had two seasons where he threw more than 30 td's.....I think he will make it, but it will take several voting years for it to happen......
However Eli has had two excellent playoff runs and has been a champion, twice.
Watching them play, I can't stand Rivers' noodle of an arm or the way he often sidearms his throws. But he's better reading the field than Eli and a better decision maker.
Re the Superbowls, the NFL has a video clip of the greatest SB plays of all time (IIRC 1 in each SB with a few "honorable mentions) and Eli has 2 and one honorable mention. There's no doubt Eli has come up much bigger in bigger games than Rivers. Partly IMO it's because Eli has always had the better arm by a good margin.
Just a quick edit:
"how many ways we can try to show a balanced view on Eli" thread.
At this moment in time, Eli is in the top 10 in a lot of categories.......but a few years down the road he won't be.....he has had a lot of average years, without a real "stat" season......only had two seasons where he threw more than 30 td's.....I think he will make it, but it will take several voting years for it to happen......
Absolutely neither is first year selection worthy.
Montana
Starr
Bradshaw
Manning (Eli).
You forgot Peyton Manning. And what about Aikman?
I must say this is one of the more bizarre things I have read here. Where I went to college - a Darden grad to be specific - is related to my football knowledge, or lack thereof.
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Brady
Montana
Starr
Bradshaw
Manning (Eli).
You forgot Peyton Manning. And what about Aikman?
Neither Peyton nor Aikman won the MVP award for the SB more than once.
IMO, and I bet for HOF voters too.
IMO, and I bet for HOF voters too.
Even looking at just SB wins, only 12 have won more than one, every one that's retired is in the HOF except Plunkett.
The others, Eli, Ben, and Brady, are still playing, or HOF bound already (Peyton).
Give it time. I'm sure someone is sitting at their keyboard right now debating whether to submit the comment that Eli is better than Montana...
His record is viewed much, much more favorably by Giants fans than by the national media or of course other fans.
Britt, do you think the SB MVP is such a huge milestone? If you could award it to a player or a unit, the Giants' DL might have won both times and Eli zero...
Eli is a 1st ballot HOF on this message board. Somehow the Giants have managed to lose 24 games the last 2 seasons with a 1st ballot HOF Qb
Make it two?
Add in two MVP awards?
Add in two game winning drives when the offense needed a TD with 2 minutes to go in the game?
Add in signature plays including one that's arguably the greatest play in SB history?
Add in that we beat the Patriots in both including 18-1?
Yeah, I think those things are factored in.
This above. The lack of objectivity about Eli, for about half the folks that post here frequently, is astounding, but fully understandable. Fan is short for fanatic, right?
They are both borderline. Rivers is less borderline, and has had a better career.
Two SuperBowl wins and the MVP in both games vs meaningless stats. Just stop smoking that medicinal shit. It’s not as safe as they say
But I'll just leave this here. This is Gary Meyer's take on it, and he's a notorious Giants basher, and he also is an actual HOF voter:
The anti-Eli argument: In the 12 other seasons of Manning’s career, not counting the one in progress, he has not won a single playoff game. He’s 8-0 in the Super Bowl seasons, but 0-4 otherwise. He has missed the playoffs six times. He has not been to the playoffs since 2011. His overall regular season record is an uninspiring 112-108.
Manning is not nearly as good as his older brother. He is not Tom Brady. He’s not as good as Drew Brees or Aaron Rodgers. But Brady is the only one of that group to win more Super Bowls than Eli, who has won as many as his brother and one more than Brees and Rodgers.
He has always thrown way too much interceptions, too often makes mistakes associated with players early in their career and although his career yards and touchdowns all easily place him in the top 10, he’s never been considered an elite quarterback. But he’s been durable and reliable. He started 210 consecutive games, the second longest streak for a quarterback in NFL history, until he was benched for one game in 2017. He has never missed a game because of injury.
How will all that play out in the Hall of Fame meeting room held the day before the Super Bowl?.....
Manning was running a close race with his draft classmate Ben Roethlisberger until recently. Big Ben is finishing up stronger. It will be to Manning’s benefit to retire before Brady, Rodgers, Brees and Roethlisberger and get in before they are eligible.
Should Eli get in?
All I can say is with the Super Bowl on the line twice, he came up big against great Patriots teams. And isn’t that how quarterbacks should be judged?
Link - ( New Window )
Make it two?
Add in two MVP awards?
Add in two game winning drives when the offense needed a TD with 2 minutes to go in the game?
Add in signature plays including one that's arguably the greatest play in SB history?
Add in that we beat the Patriots in both including 18-1?
Yeah, I think those things are factored in.
That's why my first post here was "I don't know what HOF voters factor in [their decisions]."
But I'd bet plenty at even money he doesn't make it on his first ballot. Unless he has a monster 2019 leading to a 3rd SB victory. I doubt that's in the cards.
And you'll see above, my opinion aligns with at least one actual HOF voter.
However Eli has had two excellent playoff runs and has been a champion, twice.
Watching them play, I can't stand Rivers' noodle of an arm or the way he often sidearms his throws. But he's better reading the field than Eli and a better decision maker.
Re the Superbowls, the NFL has a video clip of the greatest SB plays of all time (IIRC 1 in each SB with a few "honorable mentions) and Eli has 2 and one honorable mention. There's no doubt Eli has come up much bigger in bigger games than Rivers. Partly IMO it's because Eli has always had the better arm by a good margin.
Interesting post.
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No idea what numbers you are looking at...
They are both borderline. Rivers is less borderline, and has had a better career.
Two SuperBowl wins and the MVP in both games vs meaningless stats. Just stop smoking that medicinal shit. It’s not as safe as they say
Well, I guess by that "logic" Eli is a better QB than Rodgers. Since Rodgers has less SB wins and greater accomplishments in "meaningless" stats.
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In comment 14261206 bw in dc said:
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No idea what numbers you are looking at...
They are both borderline. Rivers is less borderline, and has had a better career.
Two SuperBowl wins and the MVP in both games vs meaningless stats. Just stop smoking that medicinal shit. It’s not as safe as they say
Well, I guess by that "logic" Eli is a better QB than Rodgers. Since Rodgers has less SB wins and greater accomplishments in "meaningless" stats.
Maybe you need to smoke more. Not less. You get to pock which stats are More imporantsnt and I don’t. This is just stupid shit. You’re entitled to your opinion. Issue You just keep on shitting on Gettleman Eli etc.
Become a Charger fan. From your posts it’s all about The numbers. Well those numbers mean of the game is the Super Bowl. You said Rivers has had the better career. That’s what I’m addressing. Sure if meaningless stats are the goal there are lots of great QBs. If the goal is to win the Super Bowl you’ve never sniffed one the guy w two of those has had the better career.
We are comparing Rivers and Eli. So if you want to start an new thread on Eli and Aaron knock yourself out.
I do agree, however, that being part of a SB team has significance. But it can't be over-weighted either.
For example, who would dare say Eli was a better QB than Marino. Or Jim Kelly. Or Fouts. All with no hardware.
Or Brees with only one. Or Favre with only one.
Or the equal of Elway who has two Or Peyton who has two.
There will be a lot of QB's when it's all said and done with stats.
Stafford, Matt Ryan, Mahomes, etc....
What's going to separate all those guys?
Maybe you need to smoke more. Not less. You get to pock which stats are More imporantsnt and I don’t. This is just stupid shit. You’re entitled to your opinion. Issue You just keep on shitting on Gettleman Eli etc.
Become a Charger fan. From your posts it’s all about The numbers. Well those numbers mean of the game is the Super Bowl. You said Rivers has had the better career. That’s what I’m addressing. Sure if meaningless stats are the goal there are lots of great QBs. If the goal is to win the Super Bowl you’ve never sniffed one the guy w two of those has had the better career.
We are comparing Rivers and Eli. So if you want to start an new thread on Eli and Aaron knock yourself out.
I was extrapolating out your baseline assumption. That's all.
A lot of guys will have stats. Only a handful will have the stats AND hardware.
Those are the only guys in the conversation.
Wheat. Chaff.
Actually, yes and it's not even close. Let's start with the fact that Bradshaw played with four hall of famers on offense and another four on defense (it's ridiculous that L.C. Greenwood is not in). Bradshaw was a 3-time pro bowler (I don't put a lot into pro bowls as Andy Dalton (19tds 17ints) and Matthew Stafford (22tds 11ints) were chosen in 2014 over Eli (30tds 14ints) as replacements). Bradshaw threw 24ints (1970), 22ints (1971), 20ints (1978), 25ints (1979), 22ints (1980). Think about that for a second, he threw 25 and 22 interceptions the years the Steelers won back to back Super Bowls. He has 212tds and 210ints for his career. And for a stat that shouldn't be adjusted for eras, he has 23 game-winning drives to Eli's 37.
Except for our idiot fan base, I doubt other fans try to devalue their own great players. But who knows, there are probably 49er fans who think the real count is Montana 3 Super Bowls to Steve Young's 1 as Super Bowl 23 was won by the defense that held the Bengals to 16 points regardless of whether Montana led them on a game-winning drive to win it. I seem to always hear that argument here about Super Bowls 42 and 46.
There will be a lot of QB's when it's all said and done with stats.
Stafford, Matt Ryan, Mahomes, etc....
What's going to separate all those guys?
Good question. It has to be a balance of both - regular season stats and post-season performance.
But as you know there are volume stats (yards, TDs) and stats where you can drill down to efficiency (completion %, TD/INT ratio, YPA, QBR, GWDs, etc). So, to me, there are places to go to examine just how productive a QB was in the regular season.
Furthermore, the regular season is 16 games. That's a large sample to evaluate production, and to give a QB credit for helping the team get to the playoffs. To give that less weight versus post-season hardware is poor analysis.
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It's a different era.
There will be a lot of QB's when it's all said and done with stats.
Stafford, Matt Ryan, Mahomes, etc....
What's going to separate all those guys?
Good question. It has to be a balance of both - regular season stats and post-season performance.
But as you know there are volume stats (yards, TDs) and stats where you can drill down to efficiency (completion %, TD/INT ratio, YPA, QBR, GWDs, etc). So, to me, there are places to go to examine just how productive a QB was in the regular season.
Furthermore, the regular season is 16 games. That's a large sample to evaluate production, and to give a QB credit for helping the team get to the playoffs. To give that less weight versus post-season hardware is poor analysis.
Is Matt Ryan a HOF'er? He's won the MVP award and actually been to a Superbowl. His stats are on pace to rival Rivers.
Who's the more likely candidate?
Phil only won one SB, but his play largely got the Giants to the Playoffs in 1990. And what about his performance in the SB itself? For efficiency unmatched to this day. 22/25 for 268 yards and 3 TDs. That performance earned a perfect QB rating.
If Eli had performed that well in either game the Giants would not have needed his last 3 minute heroics either time.
You only get to execute last minute heroics if you haven't played like the world's greatest QB most of the game.
And I don't mean that as a knock on what Eli did, but it's a hypothetical fact.
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Eli is better than Bradshaw? Seriously? Someone seriously said that? The lack of objectivity here is amazing.
Actually, yes and it's not even close. Let's start with the fact that Bradshaw played with four hall of famers on offense and another four on defense (it's ridiculous that L.C. Greenwood is not in). Bradshaw was a 3-time pro bowler (I don't put a lot into pro bowls as Andy Dalton (19tds 17ints) and Matthew Stafford (22tds 11ints) were chosen in 2014 over Eli (30tds 14ints) as replacements). Bradshaw threw 24ints (1970), 22ints (1971), 20ints (1978), 25ints (1979), 22ints (1980). Think about that for a second, he threw 25 and 22 interceptions the years the Steelers won back to back Super Bowls. He has 212tds and 210ints for his career. And for a stat that shouldn't be adjusted for eras, he has 23 game-winning drives to Eli's 37.
Except for our idiot fan base, I doubt other fans try to devalue their own great players. But who knows, there are probably 49er fans who think the real count is Montana 3 Super Bowls to Steve Young's 1 as Super Bowl 23 was won by the defense that held the Bengals to 16 points regardless of whether Montana led them on a game-winning drive to win it. I seem to always hear that argument here about Super Bowls 42 and 46.
Do you have any understanding about the history of the game?
Like the rules for instance. When Bradshaw played cornerbacks, linebackers, safeties could maul receivers past five yards. It was a much more difficult era to complete passes and it was easier to intercept the ball.
Simms in SB XXI. - ( New Window )
I do agree, however, that being part of a SB team has significance. But it can't be over-weighted either.
For example, who would dare say Eli was a better QB than Marino. Or Jim Kelly. Or Fouts. All with no hardware.
Or Brees with only one. Or Favre with only one.
Or the equal of Elway who has two Or Peyton who has two.
Speaking of weighing things, you seem to be very black and white when it comes to devaluing the data points that support Eli and then nuanced and opaque when you argue the other side. I think Eli is a better QB than Jim Kelly, but that's just me, and we're talking about your love for Rivers. Hey by the way, I can't wait to hear those legendary stories about the time Rivers beat the numbers 1 and 2 seeds on the road to get to the Super Bowl to beat the Pats - TWICE. All the while out playing or playing to a standstill each of those QBs to get those championships. In other words, the guy wasn't just along for the ride.
Think about that when you pine for Rivers as the guy you wish was leading the Giants all these years. When you talk about how the last 7 years of Eli's career have been a disaster, do you include Reese picking Flowers and Apple in the top 10 in back to back years? Forget about his later round picks. Some franchises never recover from whiffs like that. But I guess that was on Eli.
I think FMiC pointed out all the playoffs Rivers has missed. But hey, when you get to play in sunny San Diego most of your career, play in what for a significant portion of your career has been a cupcake division, and play with arguably two top 5 players in NFL history at their respective positions (Tomlinson and Gates), you get to be viewed as the better player, I guess.
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In comment 14261463 FranchiseQB said:
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Eli is better than Bradshaw? Seriously? Someone seriously said that? The lack of objectivity here is amazing.
Actually, yes and it's not even close. Let's start with the fact that Bradshaw played with four hall of famers on offense and another four on defense (it's ridiculous that L.C. Greenwood is not in). Bradshaw was a 3-time pro bowler (I don't put a lot into pro bowls as Andy Dalton (19tds 17ints) and Matthew Stafford (22tds 11ints) were chosen in 2014 over Eli (30tds 14ints) as replacements). Bradshaw threw 24ints (1970), 22ints (1971), 20ints (1978), 25ints (1979), 22ints (1980). Think about that for a second, he threw 25 and 22 interceptions the years the Steelers won back to back Super Bowls. He has 212tds and 210ints for his career. And for a stat that shouldn't be adjusted for eras, he has 23 game-winning drives to Eli's 37.
Except for our idiot fan base, I doubt other fans try to devalue their own great players. But who knows, there are probably 49er fans who think the real count is Montana 3 Super Bowls to Steve Young's 1 as Super Bowl 23 was won by the defense that held the Bengals to 16 points regardless of whether Montana led them on a game-winning drive to win it. I seem to always hear that argument here about Super Bowls 42 and 46.
Do you have any understanding about the history of the game?
Like the rules for instance. When Bradshaw played cornerbacks, linebackers, safeties could maul receivers past five yards. It was a much more difficult era to complete passes and it was easier to intercept the ball.
No I just pulled those stats out of my ass and mentioned L.C. Greenwood because I like Miller Lite commercials. Of course I do. The point I was making, is Bradshaw played on significantly better teams with much higher quality teammates including at rb and wr. There's no way Bradshaw is leading the 07 and 11 Giants to Super Bowl wins. That's my point.
Yes Eli is better...and I am not going by the stats because it was a different era..
Across the board Bradshaw had some of the best talent supporting him...HOF talent...probably some of the best teams in NFL history...
I’m sick of the defense argument. The defense let up a TD drive to give up the lead with 2 mins. They lost it.
Eli Manning is the first QB in NFL history to need a TD to win the Super Bowl and get it.
He delivered 2 touchdown drives in the 4Q
He has twice delivered game winning TD drives when his team was losing
Any QB who did these things would win MVP
Tom Brady had 145 passing yards and a TD in his first SB and won MVP and no one questions his MVP.
Eli earned and deserved to win his SB MVPs.