Why is there so much consensus that Rivers is a lock for the Hall of Fame and Eli isn't. Their numbers are virtually equal and Eli has two rings. If you watched today's game against the Patriots , you see the results of a lack of protection.Rivers looked far worse than Eli did at any time this year.
Phil only won one SB, but his play largely got the Giants to the Playoffs in 1990. And what about his performance in the SB itself? For efficiency unmatched to this day. 22/25 for 268 yards and 3 TDs. That performance earned a perfect QB rating.
If Eli had performed that well in either game the Giants would not have needed his last 3 minute heroics either time.
You only get to execute last minute heroics if you haven't played like the world's greatest QB most of the game.
And I don't mean that as a knock on what Eli did, but it's a hypothetical fact.
You're that elusive fan I was looking for that would actually knock Joe Montana for the game-winning drive and Super Bowl 23. In fairness, I assume you would also discount Roethlisberger's gw-drive as well.
Also, you do realize that Eli was 30 for 40 in SB 46 and is number four all time for completion % (behind Simms, Brees, and Montana) in a Super Bowl game? Also, the Pats, both years, were better than the '86 Broncos, right? I mean this fan base is the only one that makes you look like you're arguing against your (my) favorite team of all time ('86 Giants) in any sport.
Speaking of weighing things, you seem to be very black and white when it comes to devaluing the data points that support Eli and then nuanced and opaque when you argue the other side. I think Eli is a better QB than Jim Kelly, but that's just me, and we're talking about your love for Rivers. Hey by the way, I can't wait to hear those legendary stories about the time Rivers beat the numbers 1 and 2 seeds on the road to get to the Super Bowl to beat the Pats - TWICE. All the while out playing or playing to a standstill each of those QBs to get those championships. In other words, the guy wasn't just along for the ride.
Think about that when you pine for Rivers as the guy you wish was leading the Giants all these years. When you talk about how the last 7 years of Eli's career have been a disaster, do you include Reese picking Flowers and Apple in the top 10 in back to back years? Forget about his later round picks. Some franchises never recover from whiffs like that. But I guess that was on Eli.
I think FMiC pointed out all the playoffs Rivers has missed. But hey, when you get to play in sunny San Diego most of your career, play in what for a significant portion of your career has been a cupcake division, and play with arguably two top 5 players in NFL history at their respective positions (Tomlinson and Gates), you get to be viewed as the better player, I guess.
I give Eli credit for those eight weeks in his career where he was outstanding in those two playoff runs. Of course, there are the other 230+ weeks to assess.
As for the other comments, like me just add this. I don't pine for Rivers. The OP brought up the topic. And it's an interesting topic because they are draft peers. Furthermore, I said early on I consider both Eli and Rivers borderline candidates for the HoF. So this narrative that I am suggesting Rivers is a slam dunk choice is silly.
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In comment 14261463 FranchiseQB said:
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Eli is better than Bradshaw? Seriously? Someone seriously said that? The lack of objectivity here is amazing.
Actually, yes and it's not even close. Let's start with the fact that Bradshaw played with four hall of famers on offense and another four on defense (it's ridiculous that L.C. Greenwood is not in). Bradshaw was a 3-time pro bowler (I don't put a lot into pro bowls as Andy Dalton (19tds 17ints) and Matthew Stafford (22tds 11ints) were chosen in 2014 over Eli (30tds 14ints) as replacements). Bradshaw threw 24ints (1970), 22ints (1971), 20ints (1978), 25ints (1979), 22ints (1980). Think about that for a second, he threw 25 and 22 interceptions the years the Steelers won back to back Super Bowls. He has 212tds and 210ints for his career. And for a stat that shouldn't be adjusted for eras, he has 23 game-winning drives to Eli's 37.
Except for our idiot fan base, I doubt other fans try to devalue their own great players. But who knows, there are probably 49er fans who think the real count is Montana 3 Super Bowls to Steve Young's 1 as Super Bowl 23 was won by the defense that held the Bengals to 16 points regardless of whether Montana led them on a game-winning drive to win it. I seem to always hear that argument here about Super Bowls 42 and 46.
Do you have any understanding about the history of the game?
Like the rules for instance. When Bradshaw played cornerbacks, linebackers, safeties could maul receivers past five yards. It was a much more difficult era to complete passes and it was easier to intercept the ball.
Actually the five yard rule was instituted in 1978. Bradshaw played a chunk of his career where you could maul the WR from the line of scrimmage. Never mind the rules that protect the QB.
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Speaking of weighing things, you seem to be very black and white when it comes to devaluing the data points that support Eli and then nuanced and opaque when you argue the other side. I think Eli is a better QB than Jim Kelly, but that's just me, and we're talking about your love for Rivers. Hey by the way, I can't wait to hear those legendary stories about the time Rivers beat the numbers 1 and 2 seeds on the road to get to the Super Bowl to beat the Pats - TWICE. All the while out playing or playing to a standstill each of those QBs to get those championships. In other words, the guy wasn't just along for the ride.
Think about that when you pine for Rivers as the guy you wish was leading the Giants all these years. When you talk about how the last 7 years of Eli's career have been a disaster, do you include Reese picking Flowers and Apple in the top 10 in back to back years? Forget about his later round picks. Some franchises never recover from whiffs like that. But I guess that was on Eli.
I think FMiC pointed out all the playoffs Rivers has missed. But hey, when you get to play in sunny San Diego most of your career, play in what for a significant portion of your career has been a cupcake division, and play with arguably two top 5 players in NFL history at their respective positions (Tomlinson and Gates), you get to be viewed as the better player, I guess.
I give Eli credit for those eight weeks in his career where he was outstanding in those two playoff runs. Of course, there are the other 230+ weeks to assess.
As for the other comments, like me just add this. I don't pine for Rivers. The OP brought up the topic. And it's an interesting topic because they are draft peers. Furthermore, I said early on I consider both Eli and Rivers borderline candidates for the HoF. So this narrative that I am suggesting Rivers is a slam dunk choice is silly.
There you go again with the black and white when it comes to devaluing data points that support the quality of his career. His career comes down to eight weeks? Was it his fault when he was second in the league in tds (Brady beat him by one td) that the team was 6-10 because it couldn't stop a nose bleed? I mean the guy threw 6tds with no ints and still lost the game.
Yes the man has his faults as a QB, he's led the league in interceptions three times and in my estimation he hasn't held the organization's feet to the fire and was too much of a team player/get-along-to-go-along/not ruffle feathers type, but where is the balance from a supposed Giants fan? Credit for eight weeks?
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In comment 14261715 BobbyJohnson4thand17 said:
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In comment 14261463 FranchiseQB said:
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Eli is better than Bradshaw? Seriously? Someone seriously said that? The lack of objectivity here is amazing.
Actually, yes and it's not even close. Let's start with the fact that Bradshaw played with four hall of famers on offense and another four on defense (it's ridiculous that L.C. Greenwood is not in). Bradshaw was a 3-time pro bowler (I don't put a lot into pro bowls as Andy Dalton (19tds 17ints) and Matthew Stafford (22tds 11ints) were chosen in 2014 over Eli (30tds 14ints) as replacements). Bradshaw threw 24ints (1970), 22ints (1971), 20ints (1978), 25ints (1979), 22ints (1980). Think about that for a second, he threw 25 and 22 interceptions the years the Steelers won back to back Super Bowls. He has 212tds and 210ints for his career. And for a stat that shouldn't be adjusted for eras, he has 23 game-winning drives to Eli's 37.
Except for our idiot fan base, I doubt other fans try to devalue their own great players. But who knows, there are probably 49er fans who think the real count is Montana 3 Super Bowls to Steve Young's 1 as Super Bowl 23 was won by the defense that held the Bengals to 16 points regardless of whether Montana led them on a game-winning drive to win it. I seem to always hear that argument here about Super Bowls 42 and 46.
Do you have any understanding about the history of the game?
Like the rules for instance. When Bradshaw played cornerbacks, linebackers, safeties could maul receivers past five yards. It was a much more difficult era to complete passes and it was easier to intercept the ball.
No I just pulled those stats out of my ass and mentioned L.C. Greenwood because I like Miller Lite commercials. Of course I do. The point I was making, is Bradshaw played on significantly better teams with much higher quality teammates including at rb and wr. There's no way Bradshaw is leading the 07 and 11 Giants to Super Bowl wins. That's my point.
You're on crack dude. Bradshaw was better than Eli, significantly better. The first two SBs Bradshaw was a game manager. The second two he was awesome, one of the best players in the league. He played a higher level than Eli ever played at. Not close. There were other QBs who were significantly better than Eli who played in that era as well.. Stabler, Fouts, Staubach and Tarkenton.
Will Eli make the HoF, I have no idea. My guess is yes, eventually. Does he deserve it? I say yes cause I'm a Giants fan. Most of the rest of America thinks Eli sucks. Is he a better bet to make the HoF than Rivers? I think it is close. Most people, experts included, view Rivers as the better QB. But Eli has the two great SB wins. Probably a push.
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All key regular season metric numbers are not similar - QBR, TD/INT ratio, standard QB rating, completion %, etc are all in favor of Rivers.
QBR - Eli 84.1 Bradshaw 70.9
TD:INT - 360:236. 212:210
Comp %: 60.3%. 51.9%
Not to mention, Eli has nearly double the passing yards. Not arguing that TB, with 4 SB’s shouldn’t be in, but Eli is the better QB. It isn’t even arguable.
Playing QB in Bradshaw's era was far different, you could actually mug QBs and receivers so his stats will obviously not look as good. You can't use the stats as an argument because defenses were allowed to play defense in Bradshaw's era
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No idea what numbers you are looking at...
They are both borderline. Rivers is less borderline, and has had a better career.
Are you even a Giants fan?
It really is a question I wonder about. There aren't that many people that spend so much time trying to rip the team in some form or another.
It used to be the old contention that Mara's were born with silver spoons up their asses. We used to be told they were cheap until it was pointed out that the Giants consistently are near the top of the league for non-player compensation. We were still told that, but it has been one of many lines of bullshit thrown around. Again - focusing on the negative instead of anything else.
The Fassel years were fun. We actually had to read posts that Dan Snyder was a lead we needed to follow. How accorsi was a Mara yes man and spent more time talking about Unitas than concentrating on the Giants. Then bw basically disappeared for the majority of Coughlin's time here. You can draw your own conclusion why, but I'm thinking that continuing to throw shade on the team while they were making the playoffs consistently didn't play well.
Lately, it has been focusing on equal parts Eli, Mara, Gettleman and Shurmur. To the beat of almost every single fucking day.
It is an interesting question, because it really must suck to be a fan and spend so much time and energy refuting positive comments from other fans. Maybe it is just the overriding desire to use Jints Central constantly. Maybe there's a prop bet between him and Mark S that he can use it every day for a decade.
Enjoy the steak knives...
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In comment 14261206 bw in dc said:
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No idea what numbers you are looking at...
They are both borderline. Rivers is less borderline, and has had a better career.
Are you even a Giants fan?
It really is a question I wonder about. There aren't that many people that spend so much time trying to rip the team in some form or another.
It used to be the old contention that Mara's were born with silver spoons up their asses. We used to be told they were cheap until it was pointed out that the Giants consistently are near the top of the league for non-player compensation. We were still told that, but it has been one of many lines of bullshit thrown around. Again - focusing on the negative instead of anything else.
The Fassel years were fun. We actually had to read posts that Dan Snyder was a lead we needed to follow. How accorsi was a Mara yes man and spent more time talking about Unitas than concentrating on the Giants. Then bw basically disappeared for the majority of Coughlin's time here. You can draw your own conclusion why, but I'm thinking that continuing to throw shade on the team while they were making the playoffs consistently didn't play well.
Lately, it has been focusing on equal parts Eli, Mara, Gettleman and Shurmur. To the beat of almost every single fucking day.
It is an interesting question, because it really must suck to be a fan and spend so much time and energy refuting positive comments from other fans. Maybe it is just the overriding desire to use Jints Central constantly. Maybe there's a prop bet between him and Mark S that he can use it every day for a decade.
Enjoy the steak knives...
It's called an opinion. Some of us are football fans as well as Giants fans and just believing bullshit is a waste of time. We would rather be truthful about what we see rather than spout nonsense and pat each other on the back for deluding ourselves.
How can anybody take his opinion on the subject matter as objective?
He flat out said on this thread, and is arguing, that Phillip Rivers has had a better career than Manning. That's just crazy when you think about it at face value. Whose career do you think Rivers would rather have?
his dupe that he forgot to change accounts from :)
Here’s where there not close Eli Manning career record 116-114 barely over 500 Phil River 118-90 well over 500 and Big Ben blows both away 144-69 ... Yet people think Eli is a 1st ballot HOF somehow the Giants managed to lose all these games with a HOF QB
It’s also hard to use the argument that Rivers has to go through New England, because Eli twice climbed that mountain. Eli also should have been an All pro in 2011 as well as co mvp, he elevated a team that might have won 4 games that year with just any other guy back there (that’s an aside and irrelevant to argument, but wanted to point out nonetheless).
At the end of the day, they are both getting in as is Ben, it was just an outstanding qb class.
30.
Out of 40.
And, won the game of course too.
That's pretty impressive.
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In comment 14261724 bw in dc said:
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In comment 14261715 BobbyJohnson4thand17 said:
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In comment 14261463 FranchiseQB said:
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Eli is better than Bradshaw? Seriously? Someone seriously said that? The lack of objectivity here is amazing.
Actually, yes and it's not even close. Let's start with the fact that Bradshaw played with four hall of famers on offense and another four on defense (it's ridiculous that L.C. Greenwood is not in). Bradshaw was a 3-time pro bowler (I don't put a lot into pro bowls as Andy Dalton (19tds 17ints) and Matthew Stafford (22tds 11ints) were chosen in 2014 over Eli (30tds 14ints) as replacements). Bradshaw threw 24ints (1970), 22ints (1971), 20ints (1978), 25ints (1979), 22ints (1980). Think about that for a second, he threw 25 and 22 interceptions the years the Steelers won back to back Super Bowls. He has 212tds and 210ints for his career. And for a stat that shouldn't be adjusted for eras, he has 23 game-winning drives to Eli's 37.
Except for our idiot fan base, I doubt other fans try to devalue their own great players. But who knows, there are probably 49er fans who think the real count is Montana 3 Super Bowls to Steve Young's 1 as Super Bowl 23 was won by the defense that held the Bengals to 16 points regardless of whether Montana led them on a game-winning drive to win it. I seem to always hear that argument here about Super Bowls 42 and 46.
Do you have any understanding about the history of the game?
Like the rules for instance. When Bradshaw played cornerbacks, linebackers, safeties could maul receivers past five yards. It was a much more difficult era to complete passes and it was easier to intercept the ball.
No I just pulled those stats out of my ass and mentioned L.C. Greenwood because I like Miller Lite commercials. Of course I do. The point I was making, is Bradshaw played on significantly better teams with much higher quality teammates including at rb and wr. There's no way Bradshaw is leading the 07 and 11 Giants to Super Bowl wins. That's my point.
You're on crack dude. Bradshaw was better than Eli, significantly better. The first two SBs Bradshaw was a game manager. The second two he was awesome, one of the best players in the league. He played a higher level than Eli ever played at. Not close. There were other QBs who were significantly better than Eli who played in that era as well.. Stabler, Fouts, Staubach and Tarkenton.
Will Eli make the HoF, I have no idea. My guess is yes, eventually. Does he deserve it? I say yes cause I'm a Giants fan. Most of the rest of America thinks Eli sucks. Is he a better bet to make the HoF than Rivers? I think it is close. Most people, experts included, view Rivers as the better QB. But Eli has the two great SB wins. Probably a push.
I'll put Eli's 2011 against any Bradshaw season. Especially if you read the part about playing with four other hall of famers on offense and another four on defense. I'll give you everyone except Bradshaw and Stabler. I don't give a shit what the rest of America thinks, I'm just trying to figure out the cray cray with this fanbase. According to you crack is mine, wtf is yours?
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In comment 14261777 BobbyJohnson4thand17 said:
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In comment 14261724 bw in dc said:
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In comment 14261715 BobbyJohnson4thand17 said:
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In comment 14261463 FranchiseQB said:
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Eli is better than Bradshaw? Seriously? Someone seriously said that? The lack of objectivity here is amazing.
Actually, yes and it's not even close. Let's start with the fact that Bradshaw played with four hall of famers on offense and another four on defense (it's ridiculous that L.C. Greenwood is not in). Bradshaw was a 3-time pro bowler (I don't put a lot into pro bowls as Andy Dalton (19tds 17ints) and Matthew Stafford (22tds 11ints) were chosen in 2014 over Eli (30tds 14ints) as replacements). Bradshaw threw 24ints (1970), 22ints (1971), 20ints (1978), 25ints (1979), 22ints (1980). Think about that for a second, he threw 25 and 22 interceptions the years the Steelers won back to back Super Bowls. He has 212tds and 210ints for his career. And for a stat that shouldn't be adjusted for eras, he has 23 game-winning drives to Eli's 37.
Except for our idiot fan base, I doubt other fans try to devalue their own great players. But who knows, there are probably 49er fans who think the real count is Montana 3 Super Bowls to Steve Young's 1 as Super Bowl 23 was won by the defense that held the Bengals to 16 points regardless of whether Montana led them on a game-winning drive to win it. I seem to always hear that argument here about Super Bowls 42 and 46.
Do you have any understanding about the history of the game?
Like the rules for instance. When Bradshaw played cornerbacks, linebackers, safeties could maul receivers past five yards. It was a much more difficult era to complete passes and it was easier to intercept the ball.
No I just pulled those stats out of my ass and mentioned L.C. Greenwood because I like Miller Lite commercials. Of course I do. The point I was making, is Bradshaw played on significantly better teams with much higher quality teammates including at rb and wr. There's no way Bradshaw is leading the 07 and 11 Giants to Super Bowl wins. That's my point.
You're on crack dude. Bradshaw was better than Eli, significantly better. The first two SBs Bradshaw was a game manager. The second two he was awesome, one of the best players in the league. He played a higher level than Eli ever played at. Not close. There were other QBs who were significantly better than Eli who played in that era as well.. Stabler, Fouts, Staubach and Tarkenton.
Will Eli make the HoF, I have no idea. My guess is yes, eventually. Does he deserve it? I say yes cause I'm a Giants fan. Most of the rest of America thinks Eli sucks. Is he a better bet to make the HoF than Rivers? I think it is close. Most people, experts included, view Rivers as the better QB. But Eli has the two great SB wins. Probably a push.
I'll put Eli's 2011 against any Bradshaw season. Especially if you read the part about playing with four other hall of famers on offense and another four on defense. I'll give you everyone except Bradshaw and Stabler. I don't give a shit what the rest of America thinks, I'm just trying to figure out the cray cray with this fanbase. According to you crack is mine, wtf is yours?
Both Bradshaw and Stabler were significantly better than Eli. Stabler went to 5 straight AFC championship games, won an MVP and was AP player of the year another season that was record-setting at the time.
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but Eli should go in first. Their regular season stats are pretty close but Eli's postseason record is obviously far superior to Rivers
Here’s where there not close Eli Manning career record 116-114 barely over 500 Phil River 118-90 well over 500 and Big Ben blows both away 144-69 ... Yet people think Eli is a 1st ballot HOF somehow the Giants managed to lose all these games with a HOF QB
Hey buddy, did Eli draft Ewreck Flowers and Anti-Eli Apple with top 10 picks in back-to-back years? How many of the players drafted by the Giants from 2012 are still with the team? But yeah, that all comes down to who was at QB. So if as a QB you miss out on leading the league in passing tds to Brady by one and still end up 6-10 that was on the QB? The STUPID here really is thick.
My position has always been I didn’t like the stunt Eli et al pulled at the 2004 draft. It reaked of entitlement. Feel the same about Elway.
Peyton didn’t have a problem playing for the hideous Colts and their imbecile owner. Why the Mannings would suddenly have this desire to protect Eli against the awful Chargers was very hypocritical.
It’s also hard to use the argument that Rivers has to go through New England, because Eli twice climbed that mountain. Eli also should have been an All pro in 2011 as well as co mvp, he elevated a team that might have won 4 games that year with just any other guy back there (that’s an aside and irrelevant to argument, but wanted to point out nonetheless).
At the end of the day, they are both getting in as is Ben, it was just an outstanding qb class.
Eli should’ve been MVP and All Pro? says who? You? You can’t re write history with would’ve could’ve should’ve.. 16 years and never been a league MVP never once 1st or 2nd team All pro .. We have a HOF QB but somehow managed to lose all these games... The Giants can’t even win there own division for crying out loud.. the last time they won it was 2011 that’s 8 seasons ago.. the stinking Redskins have won it twice since then
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Both Bradshaw and Stabler were significantly better than Eli. Stabler went to 5 straight AFC championship games, won an MVP and was AP player of the year another season that was record-setting at the time.
Yeah they played on better teams, but how does someone (Stabler) significantly better throw 28 career more ints than tds? Oh yeah, it was significantly (your word choice) harder to throw a touchdown than interception back then. Look, I know you love the '70s, it was a great era, but please do some calibration. Quick question Giants fan, which QB threw the most yards (4,933) during a season they won the Super Bowl? Before you come back with that's some cherry-picked stat, think about that, in the history of the NFL, no QB has thrown for more yards in a single season and won the Super Bowl.
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In comment 14262057 dpinzow said:
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but Eli should go in first. Their regular season stats are pretty close but Eli's postseason record is obviously far superior to Rivers
Here’s where there not close Eli Manning career record 116-114 barely over 500 Phil River 118-90 well over 500 and Big Ben blows both away 144-69 ... Yet people think Eli is a 1st ballot HOF somehow the Giants managed to lose all these games with a HOF QB
Hey buddy, did Eli draft Ewreck Flowers and Anti-Eli Apple with top 10 picks in back-to-back years? How many of the players drafted by the Giants from 2012 are still with the team? But yeah, that all comes down to who was at QB. So if as a QB you miss out on leading the league in passing tds to Brady by one and still end up 6-10 that was on the QB? The STUPID here really is thick.
The Giants are barely over 500 over 16 years... yeah the QB play has nothing to do with that
How about leaving it as both have a good chance, Eli’s playoff success gives him a leg up, irrespective of your thoughts on who may be the better overall qb? We have debated this ad nauseum.
Here is a different take: are the Giants being done a favor by considering the end of the Eli era sooner than the Chargers or Steelers with their qbs? these teams qb’s will probably start regressing and the odds of a deep playoff run for either team will become more remote, yet i guarantee both teams will plan on at least two more years of their qbs playing. Both teams will probably be in the market by 2021 and both too good to take Trevor Lawrence😀. Hopefully the Giants can find their guy before the pats saints steelers and chargers all enter the market.....
I am defending Luck today! Geez even when I stay out of it, I get shit on!!! Haha
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In comment 14262121 GoBlue6599 said:
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In comment 14262057 dpinzow said:
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but Eli should go in first. Their regular season stats are pretty close but Eli's postseason record is obviously far superior to Rivers
Here’s where there not close Eli Manning career record 116-114 barely over 500 Phil River 118-90 well over 500 and Big Ben blows both away 144-69 ... Yet people think Eli is a 1st ballot HOF somehow the Giants managed to lose all these games with a HOF QB
Hey buddy, did Eli draft Ewreck Flowers and Anti-Eli Apple with top 10 picks in back-to-back years? How many of the players drafted by the Giants from 2012 are still with the team? But yeah, that all comes down to who was at QB. So if as a QB you miss out on leading the league in passing tds to Brady by one and still end up 6-10 that was on the QB? The STUPID here really is thick.
The Giants are barely over 500 over 16 years... yeah the QB play has nothing to do with that
I didn't say the QB had nothing to do with it. You're the one saying he has EVERYTHING to do with it. If you get better acquainted with them, facts can actually be your friend.
My position has always been I didn’t like the stunt Eli et al pulled at the 2004 draft. It reaked of entitlement. Feel the same about Elway.
Peyton didn’t have a problem playing for the hideous Colts and their imbecile owner. Why the Mannings would suddenly have this desire to protect Eli against the awful Chargers was very hypocritical.
For real?? So you hold a grudge against a decision not made by Eli 15 years later?
Clearly, that move is indicative of who he is, was and has become.
Excellent evaluation
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In comment 14262141 BobbyJohnson4thand17 said:
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In comment 14262121 GoBlue6599 said:
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In comment 14262057 dpinzow said:
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but Eli should go in first. Their regular season stats are pretty close but Eli's postseason record is obviously far superior to Rivers
Here’s where there not close Eli Manning career record 116-114 barely over 500 Phil River 118-90 well over 500 and Big Ben blows both away 144-69 ... Yet people think Eli is a 1st ballot HOF somehow the Giants managed to lose all these games with a HOF QB
Hey buddy, did Eli draft Ewreck Flowers and Anti-Eli Apple with top 10 picks in back-to-back years? How many of the players drafted by the Giants from 2012 are still with the team? But yeah, that all comes down to who was at QB. So if as a QB you miss out on leading the league in passing tds to Brady by one and still end up 6-10 that was on the QB? The STUPID here really is thick.
The Giants are barely over 500 over 16 years... yeah the QB play has nothing to do with that
I didn't say the QB had nothing to do with it. You're the one saying he has EVERYTHING to do with it. If you get better acquainted with them, facts can actually be your friend.
I never said It was all Eli. Look contrary to what many assume I think Eli has had a damn good career and the Giants record with him is a shame but you can’t re write history and the facts are the facts if you have a QB playing at a HOF level you don’t lose as many games as the Giants have
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In comment 14262129 BobbyJohnson4thand17 said:
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Both Bradshaw and Stabler were significantly better than Eli. Stabler went to 5 straight AFC championship games, won an MVP and was AP player of the year another season that was record-setting at the time.
Yeah they played on better teams, but how does someone (Stabler) significantly better throw 28 career more ints than tds? Oh yeah, it was significantly (your word choice) harder to throw a touchdown than interception back then. Look, I know you love the '70s, it was a great era, but please do some calibration. Quick question Giants fan, which QB threw the most yards (4,933) during a season they won the Super Bowl? Before you come back with that's some cherry-picked stat, think about that, in the history of the NFL, no QB has thrown for more yards in a single season and won the Super Bowl.
Dude.. it's not because I love the 70's. For about 5 years Stabler was the best QB in the NFL. Eli was never the best QB in the NFL. Stabler's 1976, not the year he won MVP, was one of the all-time great QB seasons. His 66.7 comp pct was unheard of in that era. His yards per attempt was unsurpassed for 22 years. And his TD pct was unsurpassed for 28 years. Stabler's peak was far beyond Eli. Of course rules changes dramatically altered QB stats, starting with the 5 yard rule in 78 and then rules to protect the QB which have stiffened throughout the years.
Is Matt Ryan a HOF'er? He's won the MVP award and actually been to a Superbowl. His stats are on pace to rival Rivers.
Who's the more likely candidate?
Ryan would get my vote. Very good numbers both statistically and W/L wise. Has an MVP.
Got his team to a SB, too. Played great, was on the verge of winning, was going to be the MVP...
But then insanity kicked in.
How about leaving it as both have a good chance, Eli’s playoff success gives him a leg up, irrespective of your thoughts on who may be the better overall qb? We have debated this ad nauseum.
Here is a different take: are the Giants being done a favor by considering the end of the Eli era sooner than the Chargers or Steelers with their qbs? these teams qb’s will probably start regressing and the odds of a deep playoff run for either team will become more remote, yet i guarantee both teams will plan on at least two more years of their qbs playing. Both teams will probably be in the market by 2021 and both too good to take Trevor Lawrence😀. Hopefully the Giants can find their guy before the pats saints steelers and chargers all enter the market.....
Gettleman cannot afford Reese type mistakes at the top of the draft. People can debate Saquon v. QB, but you just can't miss like Reese did with Flowers and Apple. On the I take Eli/Bradshaw take, you do know there are Steelers fans who debate this based on the non-ridiculous fact that Bradshaw played with the greatest collection of talent on both sides of the ball (Lombardi's Packers can make a serious counterargument) in NFL history.
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Is Matt Ryan a HOF'er? He's won the MVP award and actually been to a Superbowl. His stats are on pace to rival Rivers.
Because he graciously signed with ATL post 2008 Draft??
How much weight does that hold?
Who's the more likely candidate?
Ryan would get my vote. Very good numbers both statistically and W/L wise. Has an MVP.
Got his team to a SB, too. Played great, was on the verge of winning, was going to be the MVP...
But then insanity kicked in.
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Is Matt Ryan a HOF'er? He's won the MVP award and actually been to a Superbowl. His stats are on pace to rival Rivers.
Who's the more likely candidate?
Ryan would get my vote. Very good numbers both statistically and W/L wise. Has an MVP.
Got his team to a SB, too. Played great, was on the verge of winning, was going to be the MVP...
But then insanity kicked in.
There’s a lot to like with Ryan, but...plays half his games in a dime
For real?? So you hold a grudge against a decision not made by Eli 15 years later?
Clearly, that move is indicative of who he is, was and has become.
Excellent evaluation
I didn’t bring it up. Britt did.
My focus on this thread has been solely on Eli’s on the field performance.
My position has always been I didn’t like the stunt Eli et al pulled at the 2004 draft. It reaked of entitlement. Feel the same about Elway.
Peyton didn’t have a problem playing for the hideous Colts and their imbecile owner. Why the Mannings would suddenly have this desire to protect Eli against the awful Chargers was very hypocritical.
Probably because Archie didn't want both of his sons playing for imbecilic owners
Neither will get in first ballot unless both have something surprising to end their careers
You can’t bring up Elis regular season record than discount the SBs. Wins/losses are team achievements as are SBs.
You can bring up being SB MVP because being the best player in the biggest game absolutely means something.
Statistically they are both at an all time level.
They both have had amazing years.
They played great in at least two different eras of football.
You can go on and on. They both played at the highest level one could play for 15 seasons+. How many QBs can say that?
The answer is the ones in the HOF.
True. But his outdoor stats are very solid.
114 TDs / 52 INTs, 64% completion, 92 Rating, 63 QBR, one game over .500.
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I don’t hate Eli. I wish that would end.
My position has always been I didn’t like the stunt Eli et al pulled at the 2004 draft. It reaked of entitlement. Feel the same about Elway.
Peyton didn’t have a problem playing for the hideous Colts and their imbecile owner. Why the Mannings would suddenly have this desire to protect Eli against the awful Chargers was very hypocritical.
Probably because Archie didn't want both of his sons playing for imbecilic owners
That made me laugh... ; )
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In comment 14262143 bw in dc said:
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I don’t hate Eli. I wish that would end.
My position has always been I didn’t like the stunt Eli et al pulled at the 2004 draft. It reaked of entitlement. Feel the same about Elway.
Peyton didn’t have a problem playing for the hideous Colts and their imbecile owner. Why the Mannings would suddenly have this desire to protect Eli against the awful Chargers was very hypocritical.
Probably because Archie didn't want both of his sons playing for imbecilic owners
That made me laugh... ; )
Dean Spanos, although better than Jim Irsay, isn't exactly one of the owners players like to play for
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In comment 14262134 FranchiseQB said:
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In comment 14262129 BobbyJohnson4thand17 said:
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Both Bradshaw and Stabler were significantly better than Eli. Stabler went to 5 straight AFC championship games, won an MVP and was AP player of the year another season that was record-setting at the time.
Yeah they played on better teams, but how does someone (Stabler) significantly better throw 28 career more ints than tds? Oh yeah, it was significantly (your word choice) harder to throw a touchdown than interception back then. Look, I know you love the '70s, it was a great era, but please do some calibration. Quick question Giants fan, which QB threw the most yards (4,933) during a season they won the Super Bowl? Before you come back with that's some cherry-picked stat, think about that, in the history of the NFL, no QB has thrown for more yards in a single season and won the Super Bowl.
Dude.. it's not because I love the 70's. For about 5 years Stabler was the best QB in the NFL. Eli was never the best QB in the NFL. Stabler's 1976, not the year he won MVP, was one of the all-time great QB seasons. His 66.7 comp pct was unheard of in that era. His yards per attempt was unsurpassed for 22 years. And his TD pct was unsurpassed for 28 years. Stabler's peak was far beyond Eli. Of course rules changes dramatically altered QB stats, starting with the 5 yard rule in 78 and then rules to protect the QB which have stiffened throughout the years.
In fairness Franchise, you actually did something I can respect. You backed up your argument with facts. Now, that does mean that you are taking the position that Stabler's 5 peak years, and not counting his '78 season in Oakland and his terrible years in Houston and New Orleans, is "significantly" better than Eli's entire career. Again, that's a hard sell.
The Chargers made Leaf into an immature, unreliable, undisciplined clown?
Exactly how?
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In comment 14262160 BobbyJohnson4thand17 said:
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In comment 14262134 FranchiseQB said:
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In comment 14262129 BobbyJohnson4thand17 said:
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Both Bradshaw and Stabler were significantly better than Eli. Stabler went to 5 straight AFC championship games, won an MVP and was AP player of the year another season that was record-setting at the time.
Yeah they played on better teams, but how does someone (Stabler) significantly better throw 28 career more ints than tds? Oh yeah, it was significantly (your word choice) harder to throw a touchdown than interception back then. Look, I know you love the '70s, it was a great era, but please do some calibration. Quick question Giants fan, which QB threw the most yards (4,933) during a season they won the Super Bowl? Before you come back with that's some cherry-picked stat, think about that, in the history of the NFL, no QB has thrown for more yards in a single season and won the Super Bowl.
Dude.. it's not because I love the 70's. For about 5 years Stabler was the best QB in the NFL. Eli was never the best QB in the NFL. Stabler's 1976, not the year he won MVP, was one of the all-time great QB seasons. His 66.7 comp pct was unheard of in that era. His yards per attempt was unsurpassed for 22 years. And his TD pct was unsurpassed for 28 years. Stabler's peak was far beyond Eli. Of course rules changes dramatically altered QB stats, starting with the 5 yard rule in 78 and then rules to protect the QB which have stiffened throughout the years.
In fairness Franchise, you actually did something I can respect. You backed up your argument with facts. Now, that does mean that you are taking the position that Stabler's 5 peak years, and not counting his '78 season in Oakland and his terrible years in Houston and New Orleans, is "significantly" better than Eli's entire career. Again, that's a hard sell.
I can respect the argument that Eli's longevity evens it up a bit. Of course part of that is that QBs in the 70's had much shorter careers. Many had major knee problems that QB's in the 80's to now didn't have at the same rate. Look I love Eli. He gets my HoF vote. But I worry that he won't get in so fast. Outside of NY there is strong sentiment that Eli got lucky.
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Bill Polian, one of the smartest talent managers in NFL history drafted Peyton. History suggested the Polian knew how to build winning team. The Chargers had demonstrated through Ryan leaf, who had a connection to Peyton Manning, that they were not a franchise that would treat Eli well. If I were the Manning family, and Eli was my son or brother, I would have done exactly the same thing given the information available.
The Chargers made Leaf into an immature, unreliable, undisciplined clown?
Exactly how?
Leaf was an immateur clown. Rivers became an immature clown. Hard for us to know why from the outside in...but the Peyton knew Ryan, and the Mannings clearly decided that the Chargers were not going to work and protected Eli. As a family...I say “good for them”
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In comment 14262195 FranchiseQB said:
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In comment 14262160 BobbyJohnson4thand17 said:
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In comment 14262134 FranchiseQB said:
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In comment 14262129 BobbyJohnson4thand17 said:
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Both Bradshaw and Stabler were significantly better than Eli. Stabler went to 5 straight AFC championship games, won an MVP and was AP player of the year another season that was record-setting at the time.
Yeah they played on better teams, but how does someone (Stabler) significantly better throw 28 career more ints than tds? Oh yeah, it was significantly (your word choice) harder to throw a touchdown than interception back then. Look, I know you love the '70s, it was a great era, but please do some calibration. Quick question Giants fan, which QB threw the most yards (4,933) during a season they won the Super Bowl? Before you come back with that's some cherry-picked stat, think about that, in the history of the NFL, no QB has thrown for more yards in a single season and won the Super Bowl.
Dude.. it's not because I love the 70's. For about 5 years Stabler was the best QB in the NFL. Eli was never the best QB in the NFL. Stabler's 1976, not the year he won MVP, was one of the all-time great QB seasons. His 66.7 comp pct was unheard of in that era. His yards per attempt was unsurpassed for 22 years. And his TD pct was unsurpassed for 28 years. Stabler's peak was far beyond Eli. Of course rules changes dramatically altered QB stats, starting with the 5 yard rule in 78 and then rules to protect the QB which have stiffened throughout the years.
In fairness Franchise, you actually did something I can respect. You backed up your argument with facts. Now, that does mean that you are taking the position that Stabler's 5 peak years, and not counting his '78 season in Oakland and his terrible years in Houston and New Orleans, is "significantly" better than Eli's entire career. Again, that's a hard sell.
I can respect the argument that Eli's longevity evens it up a bit. Of course part of that is that QBs in the 70's had much shorter careers. Many had major knee problems that QB's in the 80's to now didn't have at the same rate. Look I love Eli. He gets my HoF vote. But I worry that he won't get in so fast. Outside of NY there is strong sentiment that Eli got lucky.
Fair enough. That's where facts have to become a part of a balanced and fair discussion. He'll have the stats (there will be those who don't like his efficiency (i.e., interceptions and completion %) and that's fair) and the hardware, and then to rebut the "lucky" argument someone will have to point to the following path taken to two championships, including dueling or outdueling the QBs in the following games:
1) 13-3 No. 1 seed on the road;
2) 13-3 No. 2 seed on the road;
3) 18-0 AFC champion on a neutral site;
4) 15-1 No. 1 seed on the road;
5) 13-3 No. 2 seed on the road;
6) 13-3 AFC champion on a neutral site.
Or like bw in dc says, a good 6 or so weeks.