During the 2nd half of the year, and during Manning's last 8 games, when the team went 4-4, here are his numbers...
66% comp - 1922 yards - 13 TD - 5 Int - 99.86 QB Rating
If we were to spread those numbers out over a 16 game season we get....
66% comp - 3844 yards - 26 TD - 10 Int - 99.86 QB Rating
During that 8 game stretch, the Giants averaged 27.4 ppg on offense, a significant improvement from 2017.
One of the main reasons for the transformation, as I've shared before, is that Shurmur "brilliantly" went from having Manning in Shotgun formation 60%-70% of the time, to flipping it, and having Manning instead under center 60%-70% of the time.
By doing so, he was able to run more play action, rolling him out more, reverses, double reverses, screen passes and double screens.
I'm not saying Manning is a great QB, but he is at least decent.
So if he were to put up similar numbers in 2019, and if Shurmur were to keep the same formula, combined with the Giants through the draft, being able to field a top 10 defense, could they compete for a playoff spot?
And if so, how far could they go?
Can the Giants be a playoff contender with Eli next year? If the rest of the team gets a talent boost, probably. But even if they make the playoffs next year, keeping Eli does not solve the 5 year plan.
I love Eli and I may be victim to people cutting onions when his retirement/cutting press conference happens. That said, he is not worth his cap hit next year. So I don't think the Giants should keep him at that price. It sounds like his meeting with gettleman had a similar tone. I'd love to see Eli stay at a lower cap hit, but not sure that will happen.
Let me ask your question another way, how do Eli's numbers this year look juxtaposed against a 9-7 record. I ask that because the difference between 5-11 and 9-7 this past season is 7 points. That's the total number of points in four loses. Apparently, the Giants are the first team in NFL history to lose two games in a row by a point. Of course some will say we beat the Redskins with Sanchez at QB but I don't see Eagles fans complaining about getting into the playoffs shutting out the same Redskins team. Other will say the Cowboys would have played all their starters but I think all their starters played on defense.
Can the team provide Eli a full season's worth of decent protection?
Let me ask your question another way, how do Eli's numbers this year look juxtaposed against a 9-7 record. I ask that because the difference between 5-11 and 9-7 this past season is 7 points. That's the total number of points in four loses. Apparently, the Giants are the first team in NFL history to lose two games in a row by a point. Of course some will say we beat the Redskins with Sanchez at QB but I don't see Eagles fans complaining about getting into the playoffs shutting out the same Redskins team. Other will say the Cowboys would have played all their starters but I think all their starters played on defense.
Let us call a spade a spade... Eli’s play has been pedestrian at best. What do we have to look forward to with Eli another last place finish. Eli is gonna bring us to the playoffs.. I’ll believe when I see it
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Can Eli put together a full season of quality play, I have my doubts ..I think we’ve seen this movie.
Can the team provide Eli a full season's worth of decent protection?
Is it wrong to expect top play from your highest paid player. Next seasons cap # speaks for itself.. Don’t you think we can improve other areas of the team if we were able to put more resources into those areas
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He and his group (I'm sure bw in dc and Go Terps aren't too far behind) will tell you how those numbers came against back up QBs (apparently they play defense as well) or where complied playing catch up.
Let me ask your question another way, how do Eli's numbers this year look juxtaposed against a 9-7 record. I ask that because the difference between 5-11 and 9-7 this past season is 7 points. That's the total number of points in four loses. Apparently, the Giants are the first team in NFL history to lose two games in a row by a point. Of course some will say we beat the Redskins with Sanchez at QB but I don't see Eagles fans complaining about getting into the playoffs shutting out the same Redskins team. Other will say the Cowboys would have played all their starters but I think all their starters played on defense.
Let us call a spade a spade... Eli’s play has been pedestrian at best. What do we have to look forward to with Eli another last place finish. Eli is gonna bring us to the playoffs.. I’ll believe when I see it
You should research that term before you use it again, just saying, there's a good argument that it has racial connotations. Based on your posts in other threads, I don't think getting to the playoffs is enough for you when it comes to Eli. I think you require multiple wins for him to justify his existence as the QB. Look, he won't be the QB much longer so just be patient and hope the Jints find someone half as decent to replace him for the long run.
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In comment 14262400 BobbyJohnson4thand17 said:
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He and his group (I'm sure bw in dc and Go Terps aren't too far behind) will tell you how those numbers came against back up QBs (apparently they play defense as well) or where complied playing catch up.
Let me ask your question another way, how do Eli's numbers this year look juxtaposed against a 9-7 record. I ask that because the difference between 5-11 and 9-7 this past season is 7 points. That's the total number of points in four loses. Apparently, the Giants are the first team in NFL history to lose two games in a row by a point. Of course some will say we beat the Redskins with Sanchez at QB but I don't see Eagles fans complaining about getting into the playoffs shutting out the same Redskins team. Other will say the Cowboys would have played all their starters but I think all their starters played on defense.
Let us call a spade a spade... Eli’s play has been pedestrian at best. What do we have to look forward to with Eli another last place finish. Eli is gonna bring us to the playoffs.. I’ll believe when I see it
You should research that term before you use it again, just saying, there's a good argument that it has racial connotations. Based on your posts in other threads, I don't think getting to the playoffs is enough for you when it comes to Eli. I think you require multiple wins for him to justify his existence as the QB. Look, he won't be the QB much longer so just be patient and hope the Jints find someone half as decent to replace him for the long run.
I’m not sure what you’re referring to but let me say I just wanna talk Giants football so I do apologize for any racial message I may have unknowingly implied. With that said I do think the Eli Manning era is over and I don’t think the Giants will be serious contenders until they finally move on. Shockingly I actually like Eli, he’s a hard guy not to like but IMO it’s over and it’s time to move on.. We can spend some of that money on other areas of this team.. younger players with a future
That’s pretty fucking stupid.
.
Patrick Mahomes 5097 50 TD 12 int
Drew Brees. 3992 yds 32 TD 5 int
Jared Goff 4668 yds 32 TD 12 int
The QBs eliminated this weekend
Andrew Luck 4593 39 TD 15 int
Dak Prescott 3885 22 TD 8 int - 305 rush yds 6 TD
Phillip Rivers 4408 32 TD 12 int
Nick Foles/ Carson 4537 yds 28 TD 11 int
The QBs eliminated the week before
Mitch Trubisky 3223 yds 24 TD 12 int 423 rush yds 3 TD
Lamar Jackson/Joe Flacco 3668 yds 18 TD 9 int 695 rush 5 TD
Deshaun Watson 4165 yds 26 TD 9 yds 551 rush yds 5 TD
Russell Wilson 3448 yds 35 TD 7 int 376 rush yds
Even if we give Eli Manning the benefit of the doubt with the better half of his season, do his numbers really seem to look like those above? The ones that do also added hundreds of rush yds with TDs
How exciting it is to think this way. Let me play along...
How about we don’t have a single injury to a starter all year or that every time the other team tries a FG attempt the wind blows really hard or the starting QB on the other team oversleeps on gameday.
Think of the possibilities...
That’s a bold move.. a 5”10 QB is unheard of.. The speed with OBJ Barkley and Murray all on the field at the same time is enticing to say the least.
How exciting it is to think this way. Let me play along...
How about we don’t have a single injury to a starter all year or that every time the other team tries a FG attempt the wind blows really hard or the starting QB on the other team oversleeps on gameday.
Think of the possibilities...
I'll play along. How about your franchise QB goes down two years in a row and you win a Super Bowl one year and advance to the divisional game the next year after a field goal doinks off both the upright and the crossbar. If you're saying you need good fortune to succeed in the NFL I think you're right. But I'd rather just go with a functioning oline, a defense that can get a damn stop, a rb who learns from experience not to always go for the home run and sometimes end up with 4-5 yard losses, and a QB who isn't rattled and can stay in the pocket and deliver the ball to make up for a lack of mobility. See what I did there, I actually included a criticism of the QB as part of a bigger point.
He’s a lock for the HOF, albeit what ballot/year remains to be seen, imo
Anyone else want to move on from this incessant critiquing?
Just askin’
How exciting it is to think this way. Let me play along...
How about we don’t have a single injury to a starter all year or that every time the other team tries a FG attempt the wind blows really hard or the starting QB on the other team oversleeps on gameday.
Think of the possibilities...
Let’s be realistic for once.....
No kicker will ever miss a big kick against us. We sold our souls to the devil for SB 25.
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transformed our Defense into a top 10 unit then we would win more games.
How exciting it is to think this way. Let me play along...
How about we don’t have a single injury to a starter all year or that every time the other team tries a FG attempt the wind blows really hard or the starting QB on the other team oversleeps on gameday.
Think of the possibilities...
Let’s be realistic for once.....
No kicker will ever miss a big kick against us. We sold our souls to the devil for SB 25.
A soul I was and am, thrilled to have sold
I think not...
That’s pretty fucking stupid.
What's literally stupid is being deliberately ignorant. The term "call a spade a spade" is not in itself racist, it's just that "spade" has racist connotations being that it was co-opted in the 1920s as a way to describe African Americans. I'll let you look up what the word connotation means. Now that you know this information you can choose to continue to be ignorant or you can do more research.
Btw, I personally was ignorant regarding the terms "grandfather clause" or "grandfathered," which stemmed from efforts to disenfranchise African American's voting rights under the 15th Amendment, until someone pointed me to the 1913 Supreme Court decision in Guinn v. United States and its connection to the Voting Rights Act of 1965.
I think not...
Just think how many kicks either won a game or ice the game that was from a good distance. It’s a decent number over the last few years.
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in years that should be considered big?
I think not...
Just think how many kicks either won a game or ice the game that was from a good distance. It’s a decent number over the last few years.
Just think about our record lately and whether those kicks really mattered...
But let's keep plugging away..., right?
You extrapolated the last games out over a full season and got:
What's interesting is that here are what his actual full season numbers were this year:
66% comp - 4299 yards - 21 TD - 11 Int - 92.4 QB Rating
What that basically shows me is that Eli was doing what he needed to be doing all along.
Here's what really changed from the first to last 8 games:
1st 8 games:
Sacked 31 times
623 rushing yards averaging 4.2 per carry
77.9 rushing yards per game avg.
last 8 games:
Sacked 16 times
1027 rushing yards averaging 5.0 per carry
128.4 rushing yards per game avg.
Offensive line was the difference.
What that tells me is that Manning's numbers, had he had the protection and running game in the first 8 games that he had in the last 8 games could actually be much higher.
Again, we need to separate his play with the teams play. There were many years his play was more than good enough to get it done.
It's great to cherry pick and pretend the other games didn;t count.
Yeah, it would, except there's that little stat that the Giants were top 10 in deep ball attempts, and number one in the league at completing them. But other than that I agree.
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Sigh - to say “to call a spade” is racist now?
That’s pretty fucking stupid.
What's literally stupid is being deliberately ignorant. The term "call a spade a spade" is not in itself racist, it's just that "spade" has racist connotations being that it was co-opted in the 1920s as a way to describe African Americans. I'll let you look up what the word connotation means. Now that you know this information you can choose to continue to be ignorant or you can do more research.
Btw, I personally was ignorant regarding the terms "grandfather clause" or "grandfathered," which stemmed from efforts to disenfranchise African American's voting rights under the 15th Amendment, until someone pointed me to the 1913 Supreme Court decision in Guinn v. United States and its connection to the Voting Rights Act of 1965.
grandfathered refers to Guinn in that it gave voting rights to people whose father had voted previously (or who had previously voted themselves). This was important because this ruling put in place that you needed to pass a test, pay (and other stuff), to vote. Whites and blacks needed to do this. So this term came into play because if you had voted before the new law (which ended in 1939) you could still vote. Black History scholars look at this law as an attempt to solely restrict black voting, which may be true but it was also enacted for other reasons, so they point to this grandfathered clause as a racial thing.
However this logic means almost any word can somehow be tied to a racist context. Was it involved in a law that is controversial, sure. Is the term itself racist, no.
The school suspended her for not being sensitive enough to realize that it may be offensive.
But basically isn't everything offensive to somebody nowadays?
Pretty agreeable there.
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8 GAMES of decent numbers or 8 YEARS of not getting it done?
Again, we need to separate his play with the teams play. There were many years his play was more than good enough to get it done.
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Will make any QBs numbers look good.
Yeah, it would, except there's that little stat that the Giants were top 10 in deep ball attempts, and number one in the league at completing them. But other than that I agree.
Regarding that "little stat" you posted a few weeks ago, does it actually mean what you are now representing that the Giants were "number one in the league at completing" deep passes? Or did it mean that the Giants had the highest completion percentage (by 1 percent) of the 10 teams that attempted the most deep passes (most of those top ten teams not being playoff teams)?
Misrepresenting that statistic creates a false narrative and does not in any way refute the assertion that Eli's statistics were inflated by short passes and check downs, some of which were turned into big plays.
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In comment 14262531 UberAlias said:
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8 GAMES of decent numbers or 8 YEARS of not getting it done?
Again, we need to separate his play with the teams play. There were many years his play was more than good enough to get it done.
Overall, you think his play was more than good enough to get it done? I don't. How many disastrous prime time games have we had to watch? 2013 was a terrible year. I'll give you 2015 he was quite good. But in 2016 it was the defense who carried them. 2017 was a total disaster all around. 2018 was meh. Yes, there were successes when the Oline gave him protection and the talented skills guys were running around making plays --he's good enough to get them the ball when the rest of the offense is clicking, but he didn't elevate when everything else wasn't clicking on it's own, and we're still seeing too many bone headed plays for a 15 year veteran who bring zero athleticism to the table and who's experience and intelligence are supposed to he his strength.
2014-2015-2016 was not only good enough but he ranked top 5 in those 3 years combined for yards and TDs. You cant say a defense carried them 1 year (when he posted over 4000 yards and 26 TDs) and then not say the defense killed them the rest of the years. Have to play it straight up.
2012 - He was good enough to get them into the playoffs. They had a winning record. Their defense was awful.
2013 - Just a very bad year for Eli
2014 - He was very good. 30 TDs, over 4400 yards.
2015 - Again, very good. 36 TDs.
2016 - defense and ODell were awesome. Again he did throw for over 4000 yards and 26 TDs.
2017 - He didnt play well. The team stunk
2018 - 1st half was not good, 2nd half was much, much better.
I can say that for four years during this time - his play WAS good enough to get them into the playoffs. 2018 is arguable since the start was poor and finished strong.
Historians trace the origins of the expression to the Greek phrase "to call a fig a fig and a trough a trough." Exactly who was the first author of "to call a trough a trough" is lost to history. Some attribute it to Aristophanes, while others attribute it to the playwright Menander. The Greek historian Plutarch (who died in A.D. 120) used it in Moralia. The blogger Matt Colvin, who has a Ph.D. in Greek literature, recently pointed out that the original Greek expression was very likely vulgar in nature and that the "figs" and "troughs" in question were double entendres.
Erasmus, the renowned humanist and classical scholar, translated the phrase "to call a fig a fig and a trough a trough" from Greek to Latin. And in so doing he dramatically changed the phrase to "call a spade a spade." (This may have been an incorrect translation but seems more likely to have been a creative interpretation and a deliberate choice.) "Spade" stuck because of Erasmus' considerable influence in European intellectual circles, writes the University of Vermont's Wolfgang Mieder in his 2002 case study Call a Spade a Spade: From Classical Phrase to Racial Slur.
"To call a spade a spade" entered the English language when Nicholas Udall translated Erasmus in 1542. Famous authors who have used it in their works include Charles Dickens and W. Somerset Maugham, among others.
To be clear, the "spade" in the Erasmus translation has nothing to do with a deck of cards, but rather the gardening tool. In fact, one form of the expression that emerged later was "to call a spade a bloody shovel." The early usages of the word "spade" did not refer to either race or skin color.
One of the more famous mentions of the phrase came in Oscar Wilde's 1895 play The Importance of Being Earnest:
CECILY:
"Do you suggest, Miss Fairfax, that I entrapped Ernest into an engagement? How dare you? This is no time for wearing the shallow mask of manners. When I see a spade I call it a spade."
GWENDOLEN:
[Satirically.] "I am glad to say that I have never seen a spade. It is obvious that our social spheres have been widely different."
Politicians and commentators have also frequently used the expression. After returning to the United States after World War I, the scholar and civil rights activist W.E.B. Du Bois wrote in his famous 1919 editorial "Returning Soldiers" about the struggles of African-American men:
"We stand again to look America squarely in the face and call a spade a spade. We sing: This country of ours, despite all its better souls have done and dreamed, is yet a shameful land."
That's a great read
He’s a lock for the HOF, albeit what ballot/year remains to be seen, imo
Anyone else want to move on from this incessant critiquing?
Just askin’
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In comment 14262605 penkap75 said:
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Will make any QBs numbers look good.
Yeah, it would, except there's that little stat that the Giants were top 10 in deep ball attempts, and number one in the league at completing them. But other than that I agree.
Regarding that "little stat" you posted a few weeks ago, does it actually mean what you are now representing that the Giants were "number one in the league at completing" deep passes? Or did it mean that the Giants had the highest completion percentage (by 1 percent) of the 10 teams that attempted the most deep passes (most of those top ten teams not being playoff teams)?
Misrepresenting that statistic creates a false narrative and does not in any way refute the assertion that Eli's statistics were inflated by short passes and check downs, some of which were turned into big plays.
You said Eli couldnt throw the ball downfield. I showed a site that tracked it through 12 games. It showed not only did he throw it downfield, he threw it as well as anyone in the league.
Then you started a stupid narrative about TDs and what ones do you remember or hitting ones in stride (you know the one where I provided 5 examples in the last 2 weeks alone that you dismiss cause you were proven wrong).... blah blah blah.
There have been tweets. There have been threads. There have been links. All things you ignore because it doesnt fit your narrative. So cut the bullshit out.
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Will make any QBs numbers look good.
Yeah, it would, except there's that little stat that the Giants were top 10 in deep ball attempts, and number one in the league at completing them. But other than that I agree.
You know what's hilarious about the "Check down claim"? That is all most of these teams in the playoffs did outside of garbage time. And why would you NOT want the biggest home run threat in the NFL touching the ball as much as possible?
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Dep started running with it too. No methodology listed, it was a blog post and the real information was behind a pay wall. What it said was he completed 43% of his deep passes through 12 games. It didn't include anyone past the top 10 so we could see the statistical significance of the list. IE 10-29 could have been 1 or 2 completions apart on a greater number of attempts. How many deep passes do remember ELi throwing where he hit he WR in stride deep and the wr walked in? They all seem to have to wait for the ball. Is what it is. Some of believe deeply we should have moved on already and some of us think it all the fault everyone else. FO, coach, line lack of running game ect. We all link stats to back up what we believe. No one is going to change anyone's mind at this point.
You said Eli couldnt throw the ball downfield. I showed a site that tracked it through 12 games. It showed not only did he throw it downfield, he threw it as well as anyone in the league.
Then you started a stupid narrative about TDs and what ones do you remember or hitting ones in stride (you know the one where I provided 5 examples in the last 2 weeks alone that you dismiss cause you were proven wrong).... blah blah blah.
There have been tweets. There have been threads. There have been links. All things you ignore because it doesn't fit your narrative. So cut the bullshit out.
But I am sure all these completions were either one handed miraculous leaping catches with no defenders close to the receiver which a poor throw prevented a TD....
or whatever the simpleton was spouting...
DOWNFIELD THROWS..... - ( New Window )
Our receivers ran the correct routes in 2014, 2015 and 2018...
I pay attention to his takes, but i try not to bother him.
Eli is a good teammate. Always keeps his cool. He isn't circa 2011 anymore but he can still run an offense well IF he is protected.
The OL, even during the last 8 games, was below average. What we have to hope for is simple:
Get a starting upgrade UFA for RT or RG (Brown is OK but he ain't no mauler) or even OC. Just one key UFA to upgrade. Get a rookie RT, RG or OC that can start as a rookie! A 2nd potential upgrade. Hope that Hernandez becomes that special mauler type that Saquon can look to for holes and short yardage.
If we upgrade the OL, TE (R. Ellison was OK only, he may get cut) blocking and such we could have a solid offense in 2019 with Eli even. The defense will likely still be below average but if the offense can run well, not turn it over, an easy schedule could get us 10 - 6 and the playoffs. Is that good for the Giants? I think so! Depends on whether Lauletta or a 2019 draft pick for QB is for real.