are still unbeaten in NFL history. You can add 4 more to that tally this weekend.
You can analyze the offense does this, run games do that, defenses bring this, pass rushing the QB can do that...
Can we just build a god damn roster that can compete in the playoffs. All these teams who are winning ARE NOT one dimensional. They can beat you by running, by throwing, by defending, by coaching....
So here's a concept. Lets draft really good player. QB, DE, MLB, FS,RT, C - who cares at this point. The teams with the most talent are winning - so lets go out and find some this offseason so we can argue over who won us playoff games: QB, RB, WR, or defense!!!!
Other than Saquon and OBJ, the Giants have drafted the following players:
Will Hernandez, Lorenzo Carter, B.J. Hill, Evan Engram, Dalvin Tomlinson, Wayne Gallman, Sterling Shepard, B.J. Goodson, Landon Collins
All still with the team, all good players. It's getting better. We need a really good draft 2019 and 2020 and if we do AND get our QB we should be a playoff team again.
Start there. Unfortunately this year doesnt seem like the ideal year to be in the top of the draft if you need a QB.
But until our QB situation changes, im not sure anything else will matter.
Start there. Unfortunately this year doesnt seem like the ideal year to be in the top of the draft if you need a QB.
But until our QB situation changes, im not sure anything else will matter.
Sigh...
Thats what these playoffs have in common. So we should start there.
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the Giants drafts since 2011 have been terrible. This is a talent depleted roster with the exception now of 2 players whom we all know.
Other than Saquon and OBJ, the Giants have drafted the following players:
Will Hernandez, Lorenzo Carter, B.J. Hill, Evan Engram, Dalvin Tomlinson, Wayne Gallman, Sterling Shepard, B.J. Goodson, Landon Collins
All still with the team, all good players. It's getting better. We need a really good draft 2019 and 2020 and if we do AND get our QB we should be a playoff team again.
Some of those players you listed are wholly replaceable players.
Payton
Belichick
Reid
McVay
Maybe thats the pattern?
They don't. But they have the best culture, and exhibit the most attention to detail.
This year, 4 awesome QB's.
Last year - Bortles, Foles, Brady and Keenum
Year Before - Ryan, Rodgers, Ben, Brady
2015 - Cam, Palmer, Ghost of Peyton and Brady
Take Sean Payton for example, not that I like him personally, but the guy will not shy away from turning the game on its head if that's what it takes.
Yesterday, fake punt. Now, you can argue it was risky and it sure was. But the reward was going down and scoring a TD and stabilizing the game. He even did it against us earlier in the year. McVay, same thing. Brilliant play call on 3rd and long to ice the game. Bill, enough said.
Your HC needs to take control of the critical points in the game and make decisions or implement a winning plan.
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Apparently, no one sees a pattern.
Payton
Belichick
Reid
McVay
Maybe thats the pattern?
Actually, it's two-word city names.
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In comment 14262789 WillieYoung said:
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Apparently, no one sees a pattern.
Payton
Belichick
Reid
McVay
Maybe thats the pattern?
Actually, it's two-word city names.
round of applause! Impressive!
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In comment 14262751 family progtitioner said:
Quote:
the Giants drafts since 2011 have been terrible. This is a talent depleted roster with the exception now of 2 players whom we all know.
Other than Saquon and OBJ, the Giants have drafted the following players:
Will Hernandez, Lorenzo Carter, B.J. Hill, Evan Engram, Dalvin Tomlinson, Wayne Gallman, Sterling Shepard, B.J. Goodson, Landon Collins
All still with the team, all good players. It's getting better. We need a really good draft 2019 and 2020 and if we do AND get our QB we should be a playoff team again.
Some of those players you listed are wholly replaceable players.
Everyone is replaceable. They are still good players. I knew someone would say something like, "B.J. Goodson sucks, wtf are you talking about." Or, "Wayne Gallman blows." Both points would be wrong, though.
You need good role players to win, nobody has stars at every position. Both of those guys are capable players at their positions. Personally I think Gallman is a very good backup RB, he could start for some teams.
When you have Hogan and Dorsett sprinkled into an attack, the same.
The Saints got a big catch from a backup TE and a TD from their 4th WR. Build a core around good young players on a team with depth and it makes it easy to work in replaceable players, or even eventually get rid of them.
When you have Hogan and Dorsett sprinkled into an attack, the same.
The Saints got a big catch from a backup TE and a TD from their 4th WR. Build a core around good young players on a team with depth and it makes it easy to work in replaceable players, or even eventually get rid of them.
That's right.. and none of those plays work if you cannot get the play blocked properly
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basically argue that most players are replaceable. When the Pats have a rotating stable of 4-5 backs and Rex Burkhead is getting a TD - not all of them are stars.
When you have Hogan and Dorsett sprinkled into an attack, the same.
The Saints got a big catch from a backup TE and a TD from their 4th WR. Build a core around good young players on a team with depth and it makes it easy to work in replaceable players, or even eventually get rid of them.
That's right.. and none of those plays work if you cannot get the play blocked properly
And blocking the play properly doesn't mean anything unless your QB can get the ball there, or you have a WR who can get separation and make the catch.
There is no one way to build a winner. You need pieces everywhere. Not sure why there is this obsession with decoding the magic formula. There isn't one.
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the Giants drafts since 2011 have been terrible. This is a talent depleted roster with the exception now of 2 players whom we all know.
Other than Saquon and OBJ, the Giants have drafted the following players:
Will Hernandez, Lorenzo Carter, B.J. Hill, Evan Engram, Dalvin Tomlinson, Wayne Gallman, Sterling Shepard, B.J. Goodson, Landon Collins
All still with the team, all good players. It's getting better. We need a really good draft 2019 and 2020 and if we do AND get our QB we should be a playoff team again.
No doubt the 2018 "seems" better but the team still lacks any impact players on D (pass rush) and they lack team speed. In that list I'd say Hernandez and Hill are the only keeper players. With SB, that's a damn good draft.
Horrible drafting through 2017 killed this team
Oh I see the pattern...all 4 teams can run the ball, stop the run, and rush the passer...
2) Coaching players to execute to the best of their ability.
I think the Patriots seldom have the most talented players. Instead, they are players BB has selected for intelligence and discipline; i.e. players you can count on. He and the coaches call plays to minimize exposure to their own players' weaknesses and to maximize the pressure on opposing players' weaknesses.
In terms of drafting, BB would prefer to have five linemen who are B+ players -- and who'll "do their job" -- to an A+, A-, B+, B, and C. You don't need shiny toys; you need the best collective unit with the fewest and smallest flaws. Ditto for all other positions. PLUS, he'll trade "talent" for depth. He'd rather have a starting safety who's a B+ and whose backup is a B, to a starter who's an A and a backup who's a C. It's cheaper, and it means the next man up will be good enough to keep you in the game.
In both of our Super Bowl wins, our pass rushing was just too good for the Pat's merely above-average protection, and that was enough to contain Brady and their offense.
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In comment 14262751 family progtitioner said:
Quote:
the Giants drafts since 2011 have been terrible. This is a talent depleted roster with the exception now of 2 players whom we all know.
Other than Saquon and OBJ, the Giants have drafted the following players:
Will Hernandez, Lorenzo Carter, B.J. Hill, Evan Engram, Dalvin Tomlinson, Wayne Gallman, Sterling Shepard, B.J. Goodson, Landon Collins
All still with the team, all good players. It's getting better. We need a really good draft 2019 and 2020 and if we do AND get our QB we should be a playoff team again.
No doubt the 2018 "seems" better but the team still lacks any impact players on D (pass rush) and they lack team speed. In that list I'd say Hernandez and Hill are the only keeper players. With SB, that's a damn good draft.
Horrible drafting through 2017 killed this team
So Landon Collins is not a keeper player? Dalvin Tomlinson is not a keeper player? Dalvin is probably a better overall player than Hill, but you wouldn't keep him. The Giants drafted poorly for some years, but the 2017 draft was pretty good because they got three good players. I wouldn't have picked Evan Engram where they did. I was pissed that the Broncos took Garett Bolles at 20 but still thought that Ryan Ramczyk was worth the #23 pick (he went to the Saints at #32).
I still think that Ramczyk should've been the pick (and T.J. Watt certainly would've been a perfect fit on Bettcher's defense but not necessarily on Spagnuolo's 4-3 defense).
However, the point remains, the draft is a crapshoot and if you get 2 or 3 good players from your draft picks, you should be pretty happy with that. The Giants got 3 good players out of 6 picks that year, so that's a successful draft. 2016 was ok, not a total bust, although if Eli Apple had his head on straight it would've been a great draft. Apple has the talent to be a great corner in the NFL. There's no doubt the Giants drafted poorly from 2011-2015 with the exception of getting OBJ, but there's no need to exaggerate.
The Giants did get some good core young players, and if you think Shepard, Collins, Tomlinson, etc aren't good players worth keeping you clearly don't have any idea of what you are looking at when it comes to NFL talent.
Collins was nearly the DPOY two years ago, and is still only 25 years old, so forgive me if I think your opinion is completely unjustifiable and if I think you don't know what you're talking about AT ALL.
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Apparently, no one sees a pattern.
Payton
Belichick
Reid
McVay
Maybe thats the pattern?
Each of the 4 teams not only has a better QB than the Giants, but a better coach?
Quote:
In comment 14262789 WillieYoung said:
Quote:
Apparently, no one sees a pattern.
Payton
Belichick
Reid
McVay
Maybe thats the pattern?
Each of the 4 teams not only has a better QB than the Giants, but a better coach?
better pass rushes
better run games
better defenses
better OLs
we can go on?
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In comment 14262762 allstarjim said:
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In comment 14262751 family progtitioner said:
Quote:
the Giants drafts since 2011 have been terrible. This is a talent depleted roster with the exception now of 2 players whom we all know.
Other than Saquon and OBJ, the Giants have drafted the following players:
Will Hernandez, Lorenzo Carter, B.J. Hill, Evan Engram, Dalvin Tomlinson, Wayne Gallman, Sterling Shepard, B.J. Goodson, Landon Collins
All still with the team, all good players. It's getting better. We need a really good draft 2019 and 2020 and if we do AND get our QB we should be a playoff team again.
No doubt the 2018 "seems" better but the team still lacks any impact players on D (pass rush) and they lack team speed. In that list I'd say Hernandez and Hill are the only keeper players. With SB, that's a damn good draft.
Horrible drafting through 2017 killed this team
So Landon Collins is not a keeper player? Dalvin Tomlinson is not a keeper player? Dalvin is probably a better overall player than Hill, but you wouldn't keep him. The Giants drafted poorly for some years, but the 2017 draft was pretty good because they got three good players. I wouldn't have picked Evan Engram where they did. I was pissed that the Broncos took Garett Bolles at 20 but still thought that Ryan Ramczyk was worth the #23 pick (he went to the Saints at #32).
I still think that Ramczyk should've been the pick (and T.J. Watt certainly would've been a perfect fit on Bettcher's defense but not necessarily on Spagnuolo's 4-3 defense).
However, the point remains, the draft is a crapshoot and if you get 2 or 3 good players from your draft picks, you should be pretty happy with that. The Giants got 3 good players out of 6 picks that year, so that's a successful draft. 2016 was ok, not a total bust, although if Eli Apple had his head on straight it would've been a great draft. Apple has the talent to be a great corner in the NFL. There's no doubt the Giants drafted poorly from 2011-2015 with the exception of getting OBJ, but there's no need to exaggerate.
The Giants did get some good core young players, and if you think Shepard, Collins, Tomlinson, etc aren't good players worth keeping you clearly don't have any idea of what you are looking at when it comes to NFL talent.
Collins was nearly the DPOY two years ago, and is still only 25 years old, so forgive me if I think your opinion is completely unjustifiable and if I think you don't know what you're talking about AT ALL.
Easy skippy, I think we more or less agree that the 2018 draft was good. There is a reason, though, why this team is 3-13 and 5-11 the last 2 years. They're not good, they haven't drafted well, and they were mostly healthy this year and were still horrible.
Even at the mid-point of the season, we were 16th in total health and finished 21st.
Yes, we lost some key starters at the end of the year, but prior to that we also had some injuries, especially along the OL and LB.
What we didn't have were a clustering of injuries at a particular position.
Even at the mid-point of the season, we were 16th in total health and finished 21st.
Yes, we lost some key starters at the end of the year, but prior to that we also had some injuries, especially along the OL and LB.
What we didn't have were a clustering of injuries at a particular position.
Point taken. For the Giants, who usually rank in the bottom 3 for health, they were healthy
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In comment 14262907 family progtitioner said:
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In comment 14262762 allstarjim said:
Quote:
In comment 14262751 family progtitioner said:
Quote:
the Giants drafts since 2011 have been terrible. This is a talent depleted roster with the exception now of 2 players whom we all know.
Other than Saquon and OBJ, the Giants have drafted the following players:
Will Hernandez, Lorenzo Carter, B.J. Hill, Evan Engram, Dalvin Tomlinson, Wayne Gallman, Sterling Shepard, B.J. Goodson, Landon Collins
All still with the team, all good players. It's getting better. We need a really good draft 2019 and 2020 and if we do AND get our QB we should be a playoff team again.
No doubt the 2018 "seems" better but the team still lacks any impact players on D (pass rush) and they lack team speed. In that list I'd say Hernandez and Hill are the only keeper players. With SB, that's a damn good draft.
Horrible drafting through 2017 killed this team
So Landon Collins is not a keeper player? Dalvin Tomlinson is not a keeper player? Dalvin is probably a better overall player than Hill, but you wouldn't keep him. The Giants drafted poorly for some years, but the 2017 draft was pretty good because they got three good players. I wouldn't have picked Evan Engram where they did. I was pissed that the Broncos took Garett Bolles at 20 but still thought that Ryan Ramczyk was worth the #23 pick (he went to the Saints at #32).
I still think that Ramczyk should've been the pick (and T.J. Watt certainly would've been a perfect fit on Bettcher's defense but not necessarily on Spagnuolo's 4-3 defense).
However, the point remains, the draft is a crapshoot and if you get 2 or 3 good players from your draft picks, you should be pretty happy with that. The Giants got 3 good players out of 6 picks that year, so that's a successful draft. 2016 was ok, not a total bust, although if Eli Apple had his head on straight it would've been a great draft. Apple has the talent to be a great corner in the NFL. There's no doubt the Giants drafted poorly from 2011-2015 with the exception of getting OBJ, but there's no need to exaggerate.
The Giants did get some good core young players, and if you think Shepard, Collins, Tomlinson, etc aren't good players worth keeping you clearly don't have any idea of what you are looking at when it comes to NFL talent.
Collins was nearly the DPOY two years ago, and is still only 25 years old, so forgive me if I think your opinion is completely unjustifiable and if I think you don't know what you're talking about AT ALL.
Easy skippy, I think we more or less agree that the 2018 draft was good. There is a reason, though, why this team is 3-13 and 5-11 the last 2 years. They're not good, they haven't drafted well, and they were mostly healthy this year and were still horrible.
Sorry, but when you say things like Tomlinson, Collins, and Shepard are not worth keeping, aren't good players...I think that's a ridiculous statement.
There are multiple reasons for the last couple of seasons. One is the QB play hasn't been sufficient although it improved the latter half of this season under Shurmur. But Ben McAdoo's offense last year was a complete failure, predictable, just god-awful, and we didn't have OBJ and Saquon was just a hope and a dream. And we had a worse offensive line.
The Giants also traded away one of their best defensive players in Snacks Harrison, and had to do patchwork on the OL from what was left of the Jerry Reese era.
It's a team in transition, no, the Giants didn't draft well for several years preceding 2016, but the last few drafts haven't been as bad. There is a handful of good players from drafts 2016-2018 that have provided a decent core to build with. Shepard, Tomlinson, and I hope Goodson and Collins are part of that core, along with Saquon and Hernandez, etc.
But the team is not going to really take the next step back to a play-off contender unless they are able to quickly establish a dominating defense OR they find the right QB to replace Eli.
I'm not ridiculing your point about the Giants drafting bad, I just questioned your statements regarding Collins, Tomlinson, Goodson, Gallman, Engram, etc, like they are not good players worth keeping and not guys that are on the plus side of the ledger when evaluating their draft classes.
Even at the mid-point of the season, we were 16th in total health and finished 21st.
Yes, we lost some key starters at the end of the year, but prior to that we also had some injuries, especially along the OL and LB.
What we didn't have were a clustering of injuries at a particular position.
I think it has to do with who was hurt... When they were hurt, and who we faced and the level of health of our opponents.
Jon Halapio is a replacement level center as we saw he was easily replaced.
Jonathan Stewart was never going to contribute much.
Tho only significant injury early on was Evan Engram.
By the midway point, where the team won a few games, the Giants were by far the healthier team in all 4 wins. Ok the Giants lost Collins and OBJ at the end, and then they lost the rest of their games at that point.
So 4 of the 5 wins were clearly health aided. In 3 of those the barely Giants squeaked by...
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say we were mostly healthy?
Even at the mid-point of the season, we were 16th in total health and finished 21st.
Yes, we lost some key starters at the end of the year, but prior to that we also had some injuries, especially along the OL and LB.
What we didn't have were a clustering of injuries at a particular position.
I think it has to do with who was hurt... When they were hurt, and who we faced and the level of health of our opponents.
Jon Halapio is a replacement level center as we saw he was easily replaced.
Jonathan Stewart was never going to contribute much.
Tho only significant injury early on was Evan Engram.
By the midway point, where the team won a few games, the Giants were by far the healthier team in all 4 wins. Ok the Giants lost Collins and OBJ at the end, and then they lost the rest of their games at that point.
So 4 of the 5 wins were clearly health aided. In 3 of those the barely Giants squeaked by...
We have to have another solid draft like we did in 2018. We can't mis-fire like the Browns did year in and year out else we will be the new Browns!!!
Assuming we draft BPA and assuming it will likely be a defensive player, I think round 2 we end up taking an OL as some decent ones will be there.
Key to 2019: how much better can the current youth get on offense? Hernandez, Hilapio (can he be an upgrade??), etc. The OL is the key to whether this offense can step up.
I can see the Rams using their power run game and keeping the Saints offense off the field. The Saints can and will move the ball on a poor Rams defense.