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New CBS Sports mock draft: Giants take Kyler Murray

BlueLou'sBack : 1/14/2019 3:28 pm
at 6. I doubt it, but aside from size Murray prolly fits Shurmur to a T.

Of note, this mock has Jags jumping the Giants to nab Haskins at 2, Murray at 6, Jones to Broncos at 10 and Lock at 11 to 'Skins in trade up with Bengals.

Mocks are crazily speculative at this point in time, linked below.
CBS latest mock draft - ( New Window )
If the Giants..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/14/2019 3:30 pm : link
take Murray, I'll shit in my Duluth Trading Company boxers every day for a year to test the no stink claim out
I think there's little if any chance of that  
Heisenberg : 1/14/2019 3:31 pm : link
but hooo boy. Explosive athletes on offense.
would  
BleedBlue : 1/14/2019 3:31 pm : link
be down for it! murray and barkley in the same backfield...wow be exciting
As much as I like Kyler Murray  
Zeke's Alibi : 1/14/2019 3:31 pm : link
Does Dave Gettleman strike you as this forward thinking guy who'd risk taking Murray at 6. I'll join the Fatman if that happens.
why  
BleedBlue : 1/14/2019 3:31 pm : link
are people saying it isnt likelhy???

do you think he goes higher? or you think giants wont take him because of height?
There is no way in hell...  
bw in dc : 1/14/2019 3:31 pm : link
the stodgy old men at Jints Central climb out of their box and do something this unique.

That would take breaking decades and decades of the "Giants Way" to be that courageous.

Whoever did that mock draft must have been  
JCin332 : 1/14/2019 3:32 pm : link
hitting Blue Lou's wine hard all day...
RE: As much as I like Kyler Murray  
Heisenberg : 1/14/2019 3:33 pm : link
In comment 14263240 Zeke's Alibi said:
Quote:
Does Dave Gettleman strike you as this forward thinking guy who'd risk taking Murray at 6. I'll join the Fatman if that happens.


How many people can shit in FMIC's boxers at a time?
Louis Riddick had a good point yesterday on NFL Live  
Zeke's Alibi : 1/14/2019 3:34 pm : link
He said what holds back scouts on guys like him are the fear of guys outside protypical measurements. So this way when they don't pan out they can point to the measurable and be like well he fit the profile. When you strike out on a guy like Kyler Murray it will cost you your job where as if you strike out on someone like Daniel Jones the sentiment will be well he checked most the boxes, busts happen.
RE: If the Giants..  
BlueLou'sBack : 1/14/2019 3:35 pm : link
In comment 14263236 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
take Murray, I'll shit in my Duluth Trading Company boxers every day for a year to test the no stink claim out


Another CBS mock by another author has the Giants grabbing the 340# DT out of Clemson, Williams?, who didn't play vs Bama due to suspension. That's 150# plus difference of opinion
RE: why  
Ssanders9816 : 1/14/2019 3:35 pm : link
In comment 14263241 BleedBlue said:
Quote:
are people saying it isnt likelhy???

do you think he goes higher? or you think giants wont take him because of height?


He’s way too short, not a risk I see the Giants taking.
Maybe it’s me overreacting  
dep026 : 1/14/2019 3:35 pm : link
But the A’s bent over backwards for this kid and he committed to them, signing a contract and promising him he was playing 1 more year of football.

This to me is a low ball move. I guess he has the right to do it. But who’s to say he won’t change his mind back again after 1 year in the NFL?
RE: RE: why  
BleedBlue : 1/14/2019 3:37 pm : link
In comment 14263248 Ssanders9816 said:
Quote:
In comment 14263241 BleedBlue said:


Quote:


are people saying it isnt likelhy???

do you think he goes higher? or you think giants wont take him because of height?



He’s way too short, not a risk I see the Giants taking.


he is what an inch shorter than mayfield/wilson/etc

im more worried about his thin frame, not sure he can put on more weight/muscle.

that being said this kid can sling it. id be interested in seeing how he measures at combine before passing judgement but damn the though of him and barkley is flat out exciting
RE: Louis Riddick had a good point yesterday on NFL Live  
bw in dc : 1/14/2019 3:37 pm : link
In comment 14263245 Zeke's Alibi said:
Quote:
He said what holds back scouts on guys like him are the fear of guys outside protypical measurements. So this way when they don't pan out they can point to the measurable and be like well he fit the profile. When you strike out on a guy like Kyler Murray it will cost you your job where as if you strike out on someone like Daniel Jones the sentiment will be well he checked most the boxes, busts happen.


Spot on. Belichick is bold. Maybe he would take this type of chance...
murray  
jurban : 1/14/2019 3:37 pm : link
no no and then no
A more intriguing..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/14/2019 3:40 pm : link
commentary would be how dense "Jints Central" is to take a guy who may forego a football career to play baseball

Quote:
There is no way in hell...
bw in dc : 3:31 pm : link : reply
the stodgy old men at Jints Central climb out of their box and do something this unique.

That would take breaking decades and decades of the "Giants Way" to be that courageous.


Courage wouldn't be the adjective used by the chronically miffed.
I want to see how tall he actually is. We'll find out when the  
Ira : 1/14/2019 3:40 pm : link
Combine starts.
RE: RE: RE: why  
Zeke's Alibi : 1/14/2019 3:41 pm : link
In comment 14263253 BleedBlue said:
Quote:
In comment 14263248 Ssanders9816 said:


Quote:


In comment 14263241 BleedBlue said:


Quote:


are people saying it isnt likelhy???

do you think he goes higher? or you think giants wont take him because of height?



He’s way too short, not a risk I see the Giants taking.



he is what an inch shorter than mayfield/wilson/etc

im more worried about his thin frame, not sure he can put on more weight/muscle.

that being said this kid can sling it. id be interested in seeing how he measures at combine before passing judgement but damn the though of him and barkley is flat out exciting


Yeh his height really isn't the issue. Especially with his baseball background he can find throwing windows similar to what you see with Mahomes. The real issue is it's hard to look at the guy and put another 15 lbs on him. I'd peg him 5 9 185.
RE: RE: RE: why  
Ssanders9816 : 1/14/2019 3:41 pm : link
In comment 14263253 BleedBlue said:
Quote:
In comment 14263248 Ssanders9816 said:


Quote:


In comment 14263241 BleedBlue said:


Quote:


are people saying it isnt likelhy???

do you think he goes higher? or you think giants wont take him because of height?



He’s way too short, not a risk I see the Giants taking.



he is what an inch shorter than mayfield/wilson/etc

im more worried about his thin frame, not sure he can put on more weight/muscle.

that being said this kid can sling it. id be interested in seeing how he measures at combine before passing judgement but damn the though of him and barkley is flat out exciting


Oh I’m with you, I think he’s a fantastic player and I will root for him.
RE: I want to see how tall he actually is. We'll find out when the  
Zeke's Alibi : 1/14/2019 3:42 pm : link
In comment 14263259 Ira said:
Quote:
Combine starts.


I thought it was common knowledge he's 5 9. He was measured at baseball combine I heard.
Fuck it  
SHO'NUFF : 1/14/2019 3:42 pm : link
Do it just because our drafting has been shit by following ownership's wishes... time to think outside the box.
I can see Snyder taking Murray  
BlueLou'sBack : 1/14/2019 3:42 pm : link
to the Redskins with their #1, assuming Smith is done for good or at least all of 19.
RE: A more intriguing..  
Bill L : 1/14/2019 3:44 pm : link
In comment 14263257 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
commentary would be how dense "Jints Central" is to take a guy who may forego a football career to play baseball



Quote:


There is no way in hell...
bw in dc : 3:31 pm : link : reply
the stodgy old men at Jints Central climb out of their box and do something this unique.

That would take breaking decades and decades of the "Giants Way" to be that courageous.



Courage wouldn't be the adjective used by the chronically miffed.


Absolutely. The height doesn't bother me as much as the inevitability of picking air. Talk about a wasted pick. It wouldn't be QB hell so much as purgatory or even fantasy.
RE: A more intriguing..  
Zeke's Alibi : 1/14/2019 3:44 pm : link
In comment 14263257 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
commentary would be how dense "Jints Central" is to take a guy who may forego a football career to play baseball



Quote:


There is no way in hell...
bw in dc : 3:31 pm : link : reply
the stodgy old men at Jints Central climb out of their box and do something this unique.

That would take breaking decades and decades of the "Giants Way" to be that courageous.



Courage wouldn't be the adjective used by the chronically miffed.


Yeh I originally thought Murray had all the leverage here but now I'm not sure, especially if he picks football. Scouts will definitely ding him because let's say the A's ponied up. Does he take that contract? It doesn't scream that this is a guy that loves football more than baseball whcih has been the narrative.
...  
BleedBlue : 1/14/2019 3:45 pm : link
i think everyone here should be prepared. this is possible...yea he is 5'9, but he will prob weigh in around 190-195. kid has a rocket arm. i wouldnt mind seeing it
...  
BleedBlue : 1/14/2019 3:47 pm : link
he has officially declared btw.

AMPED!!!
Just thinking of  
Gman11 : 1/14/2019 3:47 pm : link
a kid 185 pounds getting sacked by some guy that weighs 320 and seeing a stretcher coming onto the field.
RE: RE: I want to see how tall he actually is. We'll find out when the  
Ssanders9816 : 1/14/2019 3:48 pm : link
In comment 14263262 Zeke's Alibi said:
Quote:
In comment 14263259 Ira said:


Quote:


Combine starts.



I thought it was common knowledge he's 5 9. He was measured at baseball combine I heard.


Does baseball even have a combine? I can’t find anything about it. But he’s listed at 5’10’’ most sites i can find..
The other x factor with him is his potential as a weapon  
Zeke's Alibi : 1/14/2019 3:48 pm : link
Guy is an athlete and with a solid combine he is no doubt a 1st Round Pick just based on what he can supplement your offense with even if ultimately isn't the QB position.
imagine Murray  
SHO'NUFF : 1/14/2019 3:49 pm : link
Barkley, OBJ and Engram on the same field together... that's a LOT of speed.
RE: imagine Murray  
BleedBlue : 1/14/2019 3:49 pm : link
In comment 14263279 SHO'NUFF said:
Quote:
Barkley, OBJ and Engram on the same field together... that's a LOT of speed.


now get some more big men up front and we good offensively....gotta score 50 per with our defense right now tho haha
RE: RE: RE: I want to see how tall he actually is. We'll find out when the  
Zeke's Alibi : 1/14/2019 3:51 pm : link
In comment 14263277 Ssanders9816 said:
Quote:
In comment 14263262 Zeke's Alibi said:


Quote:


In comment 14263259 Ira said:


Quote:


Combine starts.



I thought it was common knowledge he's 5 9. He was measured at baseball combine I heard.



Does baseball even have a combine? I can’t find anything about it. But he’s listed at 5’10’’ most sites i can find..


An espn baseball article has him at 5 9. If the football team is listing him at 5 10 you can almost book that he is 5 9.
RE: RE: RE: RE: I want to see how tall he actually is. We'll find out when the  
bw in dc : 1/14/2019 3:52 pm : link
In comment 14263283 Zeke's Alibi said:
Quote:


An espn baseball article has him at 5 9. If the football team is listing him at 5 10 you can almost book that he is 5 9.


Right. The OU football roster has Murray at 5'10", 195.

Just LOL stuff...
.  
arcarsenal : 1/14/2019 3:53 pm : link
I won't be mad if we take Murray - the athleticism and arm are exciting. I just think the size is a problem, personally. It's not just the height. It's the weight too. He probably weighs about 190 on a good day. There is not one QB playing in this league under 200 lbs right now. Even wiry Lamar Jackson is about 15lbs heavier than Murray.

I like Haskins more. I think he's a more sustainable NFL prospect and a guy who can play QB for you for a decade. Murray is too gadgety and I don't know if I see the longevity.

QB is a major investment. If you have questions about longevity and durability, it's probably wise to not go down that road. I don't know how Gettleman and Shurmur feel about Murray - but I have a feeling they will also prefer Haskins if given the option.
If DG takes ANY QB in this class  
The_Boss : 1/14/2019 3:53 pm : link
I’m punching a hole through my television. If he didn’t like any of the guys last year, how the fuck is he gonna like any of these guys???
I"m A Secret Member of "Jints Central"  
clatterbuck : 1/14/2019 3:53 pm : link
and we're not taking this kid at #6. To use a term of art around here, "Book it."
Kyle Murray  
Canton : 1/14/2019 3:54 pm : link
Great highlight video
Link - ( New Window )
RE: I  
Ssanders9816 : 1/14/2019 3:56 pm : link
In comment 14263289 clatterbuck said:
Quote:
and we're not taking this kid at #6. To use a term of art around here, "Book it."


BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA
I'll be curious to see how he checks the boxes for scouts,  
barens : 1/14/2019 3:59 pm : link
because besides the height, and the question mark about baseball, there are some small things that make you raise your eyebrows. His original transfer from Texas A&M was a head scratcher, and he was suspended for a half of football this year.
Wonder if he'll go to the combine?  
Heisenberg : 1/14/2019 4:00 pm : link
Measurements and workout there would be huge for this guy.
RE: Wonder if he'll go to the combine?  
BleedBlue : 1/14/2019 4:03 pm : link
In comment 14263296 Heisenberg said:
Quote:
Measurements and workout there would be huge for this guy.


he def will. he knows its a weak QB class(prob part of reason he has chosen football)

he knows if he tests well(he should) he could be first one chosen and a team in top 5 either natural or by trade up could force the QB pick.

Uh.  
AcidTest : 1/14/2019 4:04 pm : link
No. Too many sportswriters assume we'll take a QB because we didn't one last year. Murray is also a pick that will generate conversation and debate.
RE: If DG takes ANY QB in this class  
Zeke's Alibi : 1/14/2019 4:05 pm : link
In comment 14263288 The_Boss said:
Quote:
I’m punching a hole through my television. If he didn’t like any of the guys last year, how the fuck is he gonna like any of these guys???


Because none of these guys we are looking at are the prospect that Saquon Barkley was. How is Haskins not comparable as prospect to Darnold (turnover machine), Rosen (Injury, Poor Record), Allen (accuracy issues).
I don't think he will play football  
Dnew15 : 1/14/2019 4:05 pm : link
but if he does..I don't think he'll make it to #6. I think the Cards take him #1 and deal Rosen.
RE: I don't think he will play football  
BleedBlue : 1/14/2019 4:07 pm : link
In comment 14263302 Dnew15 said:
Quote:
but if he does..I don't think he'll make it to #6. I think the Cards take him #1 and deal Rosen.


well then we should be on the phone with zona. give em #38 and a 2020 second rounder(conditional)

then take best defender at #6
DG never said he did not like any of last years QBs  
George from PA : 1/14/2019 4:08 pm : link
He just liked Barkley more....
NFL DRAFT SCOUT  
BlueLou'sBack : 1/14/2019 4:08 pm : link
Has him at 5-09.6 and 195#.

They also predict him to run a 4.42 40 +/- 0.1 sec. IE, 4.32-4.52. He throws better than Jackson, no?
RE: NFL DRAFT SCOUT  
BleedBlue : 1/14/2019 4:09 pm : link
In comment 14263308 BlueLou'sBack said:
Quote:
Has him at 5-09.6 and 195#.

They also predict him to run a 4.42 40 +/- 0.1 sec. IE, 4.32-4.52. He throws better than Jackson, no?


he is definitely a better passer than jackson in terms of accuracy. both have strong arms
Lock of Haskins  
nzyme : 1/14/2019 4:10 pm : link
No way in hell I would draft this kid. He does not do the presnap reads that Haskins does and does go through his progressions like Lock does. NO FREAKING WAY!!!!
RE: Maybe it’s me overreacting  
BillKo : 1/14/2019 4:12 pm : link
In comment 14263250 dep026 said:
Quote:
But the A’s bent over backwards for this kid and he committed to them, signing a contract and promising him he was playing 1 more year of football.

This to me is a low ball move. I guess he has the right to do it. But who’s to say he won’t change his mind back again after 1 year in the NFL?


That's why an NFL team would be reluctant to spend this high a pick on him........always has the option to try something else when things don't go exactly right.
This would be the most un-Giants-like move they could make.  
81_Great_Dane : 1/14/2019 4:31 pm : link
DG likes hog mollies, the O-line was atrocious, the pass rush was anemic, they couldn't cover anyone in the middle of the field, the QB is aging and the project they drafted last year isn't exactly killing it either on or off the field.

Murray sort of addresses the line in a lame way (more elusive) and the QB issue (if he pans out). But DG would be betting his job on the kid. If he doesn't pan out the franchise is set back for 2-3 years, and if the team is still struggling then, DG will be gone and they'll almost certainly clean house again.

Haskins looks like a top prospect, he passes the eye test, he's kind of a safe pick. Much more Giants-like. I don't think either is really a safe pick, but Haskins is safer.
I think some of you struggle in math  
ZogZerg : 1/14/2019 4:38 pm : link
Let me help.
Baker Mayfield measured 6' 5/8 inch at the combine.

If Murray is 5' 9 inches then he is over 3 1/2 inches shorter than Mayfield.

It will be real interesting to see what he measures at.
RE: I think some of you struggle in math  
GFAN52 : 1/14/2019 4:42 pm : link
In comment 14263335 ZogZerg said:
Quote:
Let me help.
Baker Mayfield measured 6' 5/8 inch at the combine.

If Murray is 5' 9 inches then he is over 3 1/2 inches shorter than Mayfield.

It will be real interesting to see what he measures at.


I would bet he's under 5'9" when he's official measured if he makes it to the Combine.
This is as stupid as when some of those mock drafts had us  
Jimmy Googs : 1/14/2019 4:43 pm : link
picking this raw Defensive End just because he could do a lot of back-flips in a row.


oh wait...
When you are looking up  
pjcas18 : 1/14/2019 4:47 pm : link
to Drew Brees, Russell Wilson and even Doug Flutie I think your height is a legit concern.

I like coaches being progressive and forward thinking, but contrary to public opinion you can teach speed, what you absolutely can't teach is height.
RE: There is no way in hell...  
Bill in UT : 1/14/2019 5:04 pm : link
In comment 14263242 bw in dc said:
Quote:
the stodgy old men at Jints Central climb out of their box and do something this unique.

That would take breaking decades and decades of the "Giants Way" to be that courageous.


Wellington did play Tarkenton and Gary Wood
 
Ssanders9816 : 1/14/2019 5:07 pm : link
Same scout on Kyler: “Biggest concerns will be how does he process a complex NFL defense, because he doesn’t see them in the Big 12. He’s also playing behind possibly the best OL in the country, going against the worst defenses in the country, so I haven’t seen him get hit enough
RE: If the Giants..  
AnishPatel : 1/14/2019 5:07 pm : link
In comment 14263236 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
take Murray, I'll shit in my Duluth Trading Company boxers every day for a year to test the no stink claim out


Hahah! Instagram live that!
Why did Kyler Murray miss all of 2016?  
mrvax : 1/14/2019 5:07 pm : link
Giants have to carefully scout him. He can pass in college but the NFL? It's a high risk high reward type pick.

Great if they could take him in the 2nd.
RE: Why did Kyler Murray miss all of 2016?  
rsjem1979 : 1/14/2019 5:11 pm : link
In comment 14263360 mrvax said:
Quote:
Giants have to carefully scout him. He can pass in college but the NFL? It's a high risk high reward type pick.

Great if they could take him in the 2nd.


He sat out as a transfer.
RE: ‘  
bw in dc : 1/14/2019 5:16 pm : link
In comment 14263357 Ssanders9816 said:
Quote:
Same scout on Kyler: “Biggest concerns will be how does he process a complex NFL defense, because he doesn’t see them in the Big 12. He’s also playing behind possibly the best OL in the country, going against the worst defenses in the country, so I haven’t seen him get hit enough


Does that scout mean the same offense/team/oline (most) that Mayfield played with?

Boy he is  
Peter from NH (formerly CT) : 1/14/2019 5:20 pm : link
quick. Not sure if he can take the pounding. Not sure if he is the type to never get a clean hit on him.

Exciting college player. A lot of questions as a pro.
Murray and his team...  
bw in dc : 1/14/2019 5:30 pm : link
must have some very good intel to make this move because he is breaking all of the conventional wisdom.

They must know he's got a 90%+ chance to go in round one.

RE: Boy he is  
mrvax : 1/14/2019 5:31 pm : link
In comment 14263370 Peter from NH (formerly CT) said:
Quote:
quick. Not sure if he can take the pounding. Not sure if he is the type to never get a clean hit on him.

Exciting college player. A lot of questions as a pro.


I agree. Man, it's so hard to properly scout a QB due to the huge difference between college & the NFL.
Have never seen this guy throw a pass either on TV or  
Big Blue '56 : 1/14/2019 5:34 pm : link
via YouTube, yet, I believe I can state rather confidently, that the Giants are NOT going to take a 5’9” (or less) with the #6 pick in the entire draft.
The Only  
lax counsel : 1/14/2019 5:35 pm : link
Qb that I believe would fit the "Giants" mold and is also talented is Lock-and he probably isn't a top 10 pick. I would be very surprised if Haskins or Murray are Giants.

Suffice to say, I think the Giants kick the Qb can down the road another year.
lax...  
bw in dc : 1/14/2019 5:44 pm : link
I agree. It doesn't take much imagination to see Lock as a more athletic, talented Eli Manning.

It's the ideal year to get out of that six hole and move down. And then consider Lock.
Kyler Murray is 5'9  
nyjuggernaut2 : 1/14/2019 5:51 pm : link
that's Doug Flutie height. Add in his desire to scramble a lot, is be shocked if the guy ever makes it through one full season without missing time with an injury.
RE: lax...  
Strahan91 : 1/14/2019 5:58 pm : link
In comment 14263382 bw in dc said:
Quote:
I agree. It doesn't take much imagination to see Lock as a more athletic, talented Eli Manning.

It's the ideal year to get out of that six hole and move down. And then consider Lock.

FWIW Ben Allbright keeps talking about Lock to the Broncos. He's really plugged in with that organization and usually has a good sense for their thinking. It's early and a lot can change but figured I'd mention it.
Devin White lasts  
Jay in Toronto : 1/14/2019 6:01 pm : link
till 22???

hmmm
Everyone's opinion here is premature  
lawguy9801 : 1/14/2019 6:18 pm : link
until the combine and pro days, and more information is learned and processed. Remember that Mayfield was generally thought to be taken after Darnold and Rosen, but climbed after the draft workouts.
RE: Have never seen this guy throw a pass either on TV or  
Boy Cord : 1/14/2019 6:19 pm : link
In comment 14263375 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
via YouTube, yet, I believe I can state rather confidently, that the Giants are NOT going to take a 5’9” (or less) with the #6 pick in the entire draft.


He is one hell of an intriguing prospect as he has the physical tools closest to Mahomes than anyone in this draft, and that is damn sexy. But I’m with you on the 5’9” (or less). I just don’t see it happening. Damn I love draft talk.
RE: Everyone's opinion here is premature  
Strahan91 : 1/14/2019 6:25 pm : link
In comment 14263404 lawguy9801 said:
Quote:
until the combine and pro days, and more information is learned and processed. Remember that Mayfield was generally thought to be taken after Darnold and Rosen, but climbed after the draft workouts.

It was worse than that. Most guys had him mocked late first or in the second this time last year.
I've seen him play plenty, and I am not a fan of his NFL ability  
PatersonPlank : 1/14/2019 6:36 pm : link
College sure, but I think he's an NFL bust.
Kyler Murray doesn’t scramble, he runs  
twostepgiants : 1/14/2019 6:39 pm : link
There is a difference
RE: RE: lax...  
BlueLou'sBack : 1/14/2019 6:51 pm : link
In comment 14263393 Strahan91 said:
Quote:
In comment 14263382 bw in dc said:


Quote:


I agree. It doesn't take much imagination to see Lock as a more athletic, talented Eli Manning.

It's the ideal year to get out of that six hole and move down. And then consider Lock.


FWIW Ben Allbright keeps talking about Lock to the Broncos. He's really plugged in with that organization and usually has a good sense for their thinking. It's early and a lot can change but figured I'd mention it.


I really liked Lock a lot and thought he is a sure top 15 pick until I watched his tape vs. Bama this year. Yeah his team was overwhelmed, much like Darnold's USC teams were. But dang he came apart against them in the worst ways.

Still his arm and throwing accuracy for the most part are intriguing, as is his lightning quick release.
I would be shocked if the Giants take Murray  
Jay on the Island : 1/14/2019 7:14 pm : link
I would be happy if they did I just don't think they would feel comfortable due to his height. The Giants are stuck in their ways and will probably target a more traditional type like Haskins rather than Murray. I don't think they would take Haskins either though but he is more likely of the two IMO.

I wouldn't be opposed to either as they are the only QB's I want for the Giants along with Tyree Jackson on day two.
Murray's height  
Jay on the Island : 1/14/2019 7:41 pm : link
According to a spokesman for the university, the football program’s strength staff measured Murray before the start of the 2018 season at five feet, nine-and-seven-eighth inches, in socks.
Link - ( New Window )
How much does height matter?  
Eli Wilson : 1/14/2019 7:52 pm : link
Are NFL lineman that much bigger than college lineman, that a guy can be successful in college, but too short for the NFL?

Or is there some other factor in regards to height?
RE: Murray's height  
bw in dc : 1/14/2019 8:00 pm : link
In comment 14263465 Jay on the Island said:
Quote:
According to a spokesman for the university, the football program’s strength staff measured Murray before the start of the 2018 season at five feet, nine-and-seven-eighth inches, in socks. Link - ( New Window )


Did he have his helmet on? ;)
RE: How much does height matter?  
Jay on the Island : 1/14/2019 8:00 pm : link
In comment 14263473 Eli Wilson said:
Quote:
Are NFL lineman that much bigger than college lineman, that a guy can be successful in college, but too short for the NFL?

Or is there some other factor in regards to height?

His height doesn't bother me. I am most concerned about his dedication to football. Which sport does he prefer? If he convinces the Giants that he is 100% committed to football then I would be in full support of drafting him.
RE: How much does height matter?  
arcarsenal : 1/14/2019 8:07 pm : link
In comment 14263473 Eli Wilson said:
Quote:
Are NFL lineman that much bigger than college lineman, that a guy can be successful in college, but too short for the NFL?

Or is there some other factor in regards to height?


It's harder to play a pocket passing game with QB's this small - a lot of passes will get knocked down @ the LOS and he's going to have a hard time seeing the entire field in general.

It's easier for a player like Murray to be a weapon in college because the college game has more spread concepts and more ways to get him out in space in places where he can use his athleticism and see more of the field.

More of these college concepts are creeping into the NFL, so I have more faith in Murray working out in 2019+ than I would 10-20 years ago, sure. But it's still a risk and it's not just about the height. He's under 200lbs right now and there's no guy in the NFL playing QB that light.

Of course, he can add weight - but not everyone has the same frame. And we don't know how adding 15-20lbs will impact his athleticism. So, it's most certainly a risk.
When I saw the thread title  
TJ : 1/14/2019 8:17 pm : link
I assumed it was a two round mock
.  
arcarsenal : 1/14/2019 8:28 pm : link
Personally, I want Haskins - I think I'm pretty set on him being my guy as far as QB's go in this class.

I'm not crazy about Daniel Jones or Drew Lock. I'd take a shot on Murray before I drafted either of those guys. Grier's arm strength I'm also a little iffy on.

Haskins has the arm I'm looking for. I don't care where you play college ball - when you complete 70%+ of your passes and throw 50 TD passes, you're doing something right. He can make the big boy throws and has more traditional size.

This is the type of QB I think you can roll with for a decade+

I can't see Murray having the same longevity.
RE: .  
Zeke's Alibi : 1/14/2019 8:31 pm : link
In comment 14263517 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
Personally, I want Haskins - I think I'm pretty set on him being my guy as far as QB's go in this class.

I'm not crazy about Daniel Jones or Drew Lock. I'd take a shot on Murray before I drafted either of those guys. Grier's arm strength I'm also a little iffy on.

Haskins has the arm I'm looking for. I don't care where you play college ball - when you complete 70%+ of your passes and throw 50 TD passes, you're doing something right. He can make the big boy throws and has more traditional size.

This is the type of QB I think you can roll with for a decade+

I can't see Murray having the same longevity.


Haskins has tremendous accuracy in the short and intermediate game which is paramount in today's NFL. Pretty much why Eli's game hasn't aged particularly well.
RE: RE: How much does height matter?  
bw in dc : 1/14/2019 8:32 pm : link
In comment 14263493 arcarsenal said:
Quote:

More of these college concepts are creeping into the NFL, so I have more faith in Murray working out in 2019+ than I would 10-20 years ago, sure. But it's still a risk and it's not just about the height. He's under 200lbs right now and there's no guy in the NFL playing QB that light.

Of course, he can add weight - but not everyone has the same frame. And we don't know how adding 15-20lbs will impact his athleticism. So, it's most certainly a risk.


There was a QB from Georgia Southern back in the late '80s named Tracy Ham. He was an incredible play maker who won two 1-AA championships.

I think he was 5'10'. Built a bit sturdier than Murray, but able to do some incredible things throwing and running. One of the most amazing dual threat QBs I have ever seen. Not the thrower Murray is but there are similarities.

Anyway, Ham got drafted by the Rams like in the 20th round. But back then the NFL wasn't ready for that skill set. So I recall talk of converting him to RB.

Well, the NFL didn't pan out. Ham went to the CFL and just killed it. Won a few MVPs and Grey Cups. Was almost unstoppable. It got me thinking how crazy good someone with Murray's skills would do in Canada. He would be an instant superstar. More space to work with and more movement allowed ...It would be one helluva show...
Between Barkley and Murray  
JPinstripes : 1/14/2019 8:57 pm : link
the Giants would easily lead the NFL in rushing and break records for longest TD runs for a team in a season. Murray is electric as a runner.

The kid can also toss it, albeit from the shotgun/spread. I'm intrigued.
RE: RE: RE: How much does height matter?  
arcarsenal : 1/14/2019 9:00 pm : link
In comment 14263521 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 14263493 arcarsenal said:


Quote:



More of these college concepts are creeping into the NFL, so I have more faith in Murray working out in 2019+ than I would 10-20 years ago, sure. But it's still a risk and it's not just about the height. He's under 200lbs right now and there's no guy in the NFL playing QB that light.

Of course, he can add weight - but not everyone has the same frame. And we don't know how adding 15-20lbs will impact his athleticism. So, it's most certainly a risk.



There was a QB from Georgia Southern back in the late '80s named Tracy Ham. He was an incredible play maker who won two 1-AA championships.

I think he was 5'10'. Built a bit sturdier than Murray, but able to do some incredible things throwing and running. One of the most amazing dual threat QBs I have ever seen. Not the thrower Murray is but there are similarities.

Anyway, Ham got drafted by the Rams like in the 20th round. But back then the NFL wasn't ready for that skill set. So I recall talk of converting him to RB.

Well, the NFL didn't pan out. Ham went to the CFL and just killed it. Won a few MVPs and Grey Cups. Was almost unstoppable. It got me thinking how crazy good someone with Murray's skills would do in Canada. He would be an instant superstar. More space to work with and more movement allowed ...It would be one helluva show...


Showing your age a bit, Bee Dubs :)

Interesting stuff. Definitely a few years before my time as an avid football fan, so I don't recall it.

But I agree - Murray playing up north would probably be fireworks. He's tailor made for that game.
RE: .  
Jay on the Island : 1/14/2019 9:07 pm : link
In comment 14263517 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
Personally, I want Haskins - I think I'm pretty set on him being my guy as far as QB's go in this class.

I'm not crazy about Daniel Jones or Drew Lock. I'd take a shot on Murray before I drafted either of those guys. Grier's arm strength I'm also a little iffy on.

Haskins has the arm I'm looking for. I don't care where you play college ball - when you complete 70%+ of your passes and throw 50 TD passes, you're doing something right. He can make the big boy throws and has more traditional size.

This is the type of QB I think you can roll with for a decade+

I can't see Murray having the same longevity.

I'm warming up to Haskins as well. I think he could be a real good QB for us with Barkley, Beckham, Engram, and Shepard. It would also allow the Giants to move on from Eli and have the benefit of paying their starting QB well below market value for 5 years. That is a big advantage as we have seen recently with the Eagles, Rams, Chiefs, Texans, Seahawks, etc.
RE: RE: .  
arcarsenal : 1/14/2019 9:09 pm : link
In comment 14263519 Zeke's Alibi said:
Quote:
In comment 14263517 arcarsenal said:


Quote:


Personally, I want Haskins - I think I'm pretty set on him being my guy as far as QB's go in this class.

I'm not crazy about Daniel Jones or Drew Lock. I'd take a shot on Murray before I drafted either of those guys. Grier's arm strength I'm also a little iffy on.

Haskins has the arm I'm looking for. I don't care where you play college ball - when you complete 70%+ of your passes and throw 50 TD passes, you're doing something right. He can make the big boy throws and has more traditional size.

This is the type of QB I think you can roll with for a decade+

I can't see Murray having the same longevity.



Haskins has tremendous accuracy in the short and intermediate game which is paramount in today's NFL. Pretty much why Eli's game hasn't aged particularly well.


Yep, and he can throw down the field, too. I saw someone compare him to Geno Smith here recently - I guess when you have two black QB's who are the same size that's what happens - but I think Haskins' arm is far better than Smith's.

Smith was a very lateral passer @ WVU - it seemed like he was always throwing behind the sticks and rarely challenging teams down the field.

WIth Haskins, I see a vertical arm that can sling it deep - and not just in the middle of the football field.

Haskins is a super effective PA passer out of the shotgun - which is something I saw Shurmur do more of in Minnesota with Keenum but not quite as much with Eli - presumably because Eli is more comfortable under center and we went much less shotgun heavy later in the year. I think he'd love to run more of that with Haskins.

He can throw WR's open. Fantastic short game accuracy, strong arm and giddyup on the ball. Sees the field really well.

He's not a scrambler, but he'll move when he needs to. He also got better in the face of pressure as the year progressed.

You'd prefer that he had more than 1 year of starting experience under his belt - but given that lack of experience, Haskins is pretty advanced as a passer.

All aboard!
RE: RE: .  
arcarsenal : 1/14/2019 9:10 pm : link
In comment 14263555 Jay on the Island said:
Quote:
In comment 14263517 arcarsenal said:


Quote:


Personally, I want Haskins - I think I'm pretty set on him being my guy as far as QB's go in this class.

I'm not crazy about Daniel Jones or Drew Lock. I'd take a shot on Murray before I drafted either of those guys. Grier's arm strength I'm also a little iffy on.

Haskins has the arm I'm looking for. I don't care where you play college ball - when you complete 70%+ of your passes and throw 50 TD passes, you're doing something right. He can make the big boy throws and has more traditional size.

This is the type of QB I think you can roll with for a decade+

I can't see Murray having the same longevity.


I'm warming up to Haskins as well. I think he could be a real good QB for us with Barkley, Beckham, Engram, and Shepard. It would also allow the Giants to move on from Eli and have the benefit of paying their starting QB well below market value for 5 years. That is a big advantage as we have seen recently with the Eagles, Rams, Chiefs, Texans, Seahawks, etc.


I think Shurmur would do really, really well with Haskins.
RE: RE: RE: RE: How much does height matter?  
bw in dc : 1/14/2019 9:12 pm : link
In comment 14263542 arcarsenal said:
Quote:


Showing your age a bit, Bee Dubs :)

Interesting stuff. Definitely a few years before my time as an avid football fan, so I don't recall it.

But I agree - Murray playing up north would probably be fireworks. He's tailor made for that game.


I was a teenager and remember reading about him in SI. ESPN showed the 1-AA semis and finals so I got interested and watched. Ham was a magician.

RE: RE: RE: .  
Jay on the Island : 1/14/2019 9:19 pm : link
In comment 14263566 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
In comment 14263555 Jay on the Island said:


Quote:


In comment 14263517 arcarsenal said:


Quote:


Personally, I want Haskins - I think I'm pretty set on him being my guy as far as QB's go in this class.

I'm not crazy about Daniel Jones or Drew Lock. I'd take a shot on Murray before I drafted either of those guys. Grier's arm strength I'm also a little iffy on.

Haskins has the arm I'm looking for. I don't care where you play college ball - when you complete 70%+ of your passes and throw 50 TD passes, you're doing something right. He can make the big boy throws and has more traditional size.

This is the type of QB I think you can roll with for a decade+

I can't see Murray having the same longevity.


I'm warming up to Haskins as well. I think he could be a real good QB for us with Barkley, Beckham, Engram, and Shepard. It would also allow the Giants to move on from Eli and have the benefit of paying their starting QB well below market value for 5 years. That is a big advantage as we have seen recently with the Eagles, Rams, Chiefs, Texans, Seahawks, etc.



I think Shurmur would do really, really well with Haskins.

I would love to see the reaction of a certain poster who has guaranteed on numerous threads that Haskins will not be a Giant.
fuck it  
SHO'NUFF : 1/14/2019 10:12 pm : link
draft Murray now and draft a real QB next year.
Imagine running a RPO with Murray and Saquon  
nyjuggernaut2 : 1/14/2019 10:17 pm : link
talk about speed and athleticism. If Murray were 3-4 inches taller I'd be all-in on him. But at 5'8-5'9 its gonna be tough for him to play QB at the next level.
RE: fuck it  
SGMen : 1/14/2019 10:17 pm : link
In comment 14263666 SHO'NUFF said:
Quote:
draft Murray now and draft a real QB next year.
Why? I mean, I can see Murray being a superb "goal line" type QB and a good option run play QB for gimmicks and stuff, sure. but a true passer like Wilson or Brees, both 5'10" or so? I'm not seeing it.
Murray at #6  
montanagiant : 1/15/2019 1:38 am : link
Would be all I need to realize this Front Office & coaching staff is not going to be around for very long
Why on Earth would DG spend the 6th pick  
montanagiant : 1/15/2019 1:54 am : link
On a questionable QB who might change his mind and play MLB instead? It's idiotic to even consider.
RE: Why on Earth would DG spend the 6th pick  
mattyblue : 1/15/2019 2:02 am : link
In comment 14263733 montanagiant said:
Quote:
On a questionable QB who might change his mind and play MLB instead? It's idiotic to even consider.


If Murray got picked at #6 overall he is gonna play football. You make a lot more money playing football early on. It would take him awhile to get paid the mega bucks baseball has to offer.
This is an ok  
mattyblue : 1/15/2019 2:04 am : link
article about the financial differences
Link - ( New Window )
RE: Imagine running a RPO with Murray and Saquon  
BlueLou'sBack : 1/15/2019 2:09 am : link
In comment 14263672 nyjuggernaut2 said:
Quote:
talk about speed and athleticism. If Murray were 3-4 inches taller I'd be all-in on him. But at 5'8-5'9 its gonna be tough for him to play QB at the next level.


Murray is closer to 5'10" than 5'9", according to 2 sources. 5'9.75" to be precise. Russell Wilson is 5'11" according to his Combine measurement.

Wilson ran a 4.55 sec. 40 yard dash. Murray may run a 4.45 40. So far I have seen him passing well from roll outs to his left as well as his right, which will be crucial for him to succeed. I haven't watched enough of him yet, but he may be that 1 in a million guy who just has it, despite his height. He's only 1.25 inches shorter than Wilson. Is that TOO short?
RE: Kyle Murray  
BlueLou'sBack : 1/15/2019 3:25 am : link
In comment 14263290 Canton said:
Quote:
Great highlight video Link - ( New Window )


Those highlights... make it look as if Murray plus Barkley, OBJ, Engram and Sterling Shepard would be like playing Madden - with a halfway decent OL.
Wisconsin OL avg was 6'5  
twostepgiants : 1/15/2019 6:25 am : link
Ir was the 7th largest in college football
RE: I can see Snyder taking Murray  
bradshaw44 : 1/15/2019 6:44 am : link
In comment 14263264 BlueLou'sBack said:
Quote:
to the Redskins with their #1, assuming Smith is done for good or at least all of 19.


This is going to happen if he’s there. It’s a no brainer for them. Marketability in dc, need a price controlled QB, and if it works he’s a genius, if not then it’s a cheap qb for a few years.
Lock and Jones  
Dnew15 : 1/15/2019 8:59 am : link
seem like guys that will be picked outside the top 15...but come April...that will change. I'll bet Haskins/Lock/Jones and Murray (if he comes out) will all get picked in the top 15.
RE: Lock and Jones  
SGMen : 1/15/2019 9:32 am : link
In comment 14263815 Dnew15 said:
Quote:
seem like guys that will be picked outside the top 15...but come April...that will change. I'll bet Haskins/Lock/Jones and Murray (if he comes out) will all get picked in the top 15.
Teams can get enamored with a guy at a combine and such, especially a QB. This is a QB league.

I mean, would you be shocked if the Giants got say Haskins round 1 and moved back into round 1 late to take a guy that falls, a Lock or whatever, too? I wouldn't be only because as crazy as that sounds if you like 2 guys a whole lot and the roster has spots after Eli, pull the trigger. Or Eli is cut. Or whatever. Draft boards get crazy.

But I'm always for best player available regardless of position. Stay with your board, not with your emotions.
If the Giants passed on Darnold and Rosen last April because they  
Brown Recluse : 1/15/2019 9:50 am : link
supposedly weren't good enough, they are absolutely going to pass on Murray as well. This is stupid.
RE: RE: Imagine running a RPO with Murray and Saquon  
shyster : 1/15/2019 11:10 am : link
In comment 14263738 BlueLou'sBack said:
Quote:

Murray is closer to 5'10" than 5'9", according to 2 sources. 5'9.75" to be precise. Russell Wilson is 5'11" according to his Combine measurement.

. . . He's only 1.25 inches shorter than Wilson. Is that TOO short?


Initial combine measurements get rounded off. Wilson's combine highlight video shows that his precise measurement was actually 5-10 5/8.

That's good for your case. But the other thing the combine video shows is that Wilson came out of college built like a linebacker.

Murray doesn't have that and, while he might put on some weight, he'll never be as solid as Wilson.
RW muscles - ( New Window )
RE: If the Giants passed on Darnold and Rosen last April because they  
Strahan91 : 1/15/2019 12:10 pm : link
In comment 14263899 Brown Recluse said:
Quote:
supposedly weren't good enough, they are absolutely going to pass on Murray as well. This is stupid.

For the millionth time, they passed on Darnold and Rosen because of how good Barkley was. Not because Darnold and Rosen weren't good enough. Plus, Murray was a significantly better college player than Darnold and Rosen. If you're saying they didn't check enough boxes as prospects that's a different argument.
RE: Lock and Jones  
GFAN52 : 1/15/2019 12:44 pm : link
In comment 14263815 Dnew15 said:
Quote:
seem like guys that will be picked outside the top 15...but come April...that will change. I'll bet Haskins/Lock/Jones and Murray (if he comes out) will all get picked in the top 15.


QBs normally always move up the draft board the closer that the draft comes.
I'm not sure his size is as big a deal as it's made out to be  
Go Terps : 1/15/2019 12:53 pm : link
Rich Gannon was 6'3"...that didn't matter when Tony Siragusa pancaked him and separated his shoulder.

Murray played against enormous defenders in college and did it well enough to win the Heisman. I have no doubt he can play quarterback in the NFL.

The issue always ends up being when coaches try to turn these guys into pocket QBs in an effort to keep him healthy. It may keep him healthy longer, but that doesn't matter much if it destroys his game.
RE: I'm not sure his size is as big a deal as it's made out to be  
BlueLou'sBack : 1/15/2019 1:20 pm : link
In comment 14264237 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Rich Gannon was 6'3"...that didn't matter when Tony Siragusa pancaked him and separated his shoulder.

Murray played against enormous defenders in college and did it well enough to win the Heisman. I have no doubt he can play quarterback in the NFL.

The issue always ends up being when coaches try to turn these guys into pocket QBs in an effort to keep him healthy. It may keep him healthy longer, but that doesn't matter much if it destroys his game.


Spot on Terps. With Murray's running ability and supposed 4.4n speed, you keep this guy rolling out a high % of his snaps because D's have to respect his running. At the same time he can stop on a dime and sling the darn football all over the place, rolling to either side I think

IMO he's a top 10 pick but I gotta watch more.

In the other mock from BR I posted today, very nice brief write up on Lock and how he'll likely rise up boards like Josh Allen did last year - who went 7 to Buffalo. Big arm and athleticism of the two compared favorably.
RE: RE: I'm not sure his size is as big a deal as it's made out to be  
DonQuixote : 1/15/2019 6:15 pm : link
In comment 14264288 BlueLou'sBack said:
Quote:
In comment 14264237 Go Terps said:


Quote:


Rich Gannon was 6'3"...that didn't matter when Tony Siragusa pancaked him and separated his shoulder.

Murray played against enormous defenders in college and did it well enough to win the Heisman. I have no doubt he can play quarterback in the NFL.

The issue always ends up being when coaches try to turn these guys into pocket QBs in an effort to keep him healthy. It may keep him healthy longer, but that doesn't matter much if it destroys his game.



Spot on Terps. With Murray's running ability and supposed 4.4n speed, you keep this guy rolling out a high % of his snaps because D's have to respect his running. At the same time he can stop on a dime and sling the darn football all over the place, rolling to either side I think

IMO he's a top 10 pick but I gotta watch more.

In the other mock from BR I posted today, very nice brief write up on Lock and how he'll likely rise up boards like Josh Allen did last year - who went 7 to Buffalo. Big arm and athleticism of the two compared favorably.


He looks like one hell of a football player to me. He may not match the measurables, not even close, but he looks like a game changer.
RE: RE: I'm not sure his size is as big a deal as it's made out to be  
arcarsenal : 1/15/2019 6:44 pm : link
In comment 14264288 BlueLou'sBack said:
Quote:
In comment 14264237 Go Terps said:


Quote:


Rich Gannon was 6'3"...that didn't matter when Tony Siragusa pancaked him and separated his shoulder.

Murray played against enormous defenders in college and did it well enough to win the Heisman. I have no doubt he can play quarterback in the NFL.

The issue always ends up being when coaches try to turn these guys into pocket QBs in an effort to keep him healthy. It may keep him healthy longer, but that doesn't matter much if it destroys his game.



Spot on Terps. With Murray's running ability and supposed 4.4n speed, you keep this guy rolling out a high % of his snaps because D's have to respect his running. At the same time he can stop on a dime and sling the darn football all over the place, rolling to either side I think

IMO he's a top 10 pick but I gotta watch more.

In the other mock from BR I posted today, very nice brief write up on Lock and how he'll likely rise up boards like Josh Allen did last year - who went 7 to Buffalo. Big arm and athleticism of the two compared favorably.


Allen was really underwhelming. I think the most impressive part of his rookie year was actually how well he did running with the football. But that's not why he was drafted.

His completion % is still dreadful - to be completing just half your passes in a league where 40 year olds are @ 70% is bad. He got picked off more than he threw the ball into the endzone.

We'd be in a world of trouble right now if we took this guy rather than Barkley.... Josh Allen is the type of guy that gets you into "QB hell" because now Buffalo will spend more than half this rookie contract trying to get him "right" and have him put his tools together - odds are he won't, and then they'll go back and forth wondering when to cut the cord because of the investment and will be hesitant to move on from him.

I know I'm getting way ahead of myself and that his career arc could change on a dime - but I just don't see it with Allen.

I do think Darnold will be good. I think Rosen was in a near-impossible situation with a first year coach and terrible team around him, but the talent is there.

But really, after year 1, I think the only guy I'd have considered a "mistake" to pass on would have been Mayfield. And we didn't pass on him.
We're in a world of trouble now WITH Barkley  
Go Terps : 1/15/2019 6:48 pm : link
We can't definitively say he was a better pick than Allen would have been.
.  
arcarsenal : 1/15/2019 6:56 pm : link
Sure we can. One guy had an outstanding rookie year, one guy struggled mightily and already missed games because he got hurt.

There's no "RB hell" - we're never going to get stuck in a phase of roster building because of Saquon Barkley. But a team like Buffalo most certainly can with Allen if he's middling and no one can decide if he's worth continuing along with or moving on from.

It's basically the Dolphins with Tannehill. He's one of those guys who fools teams into sticking with them because they're too afraid of the alternative unknown - so, they waste money on a second contract and keep spinning their wheels with a QB who really isn't very good.

Barkley is a top 3 player at his position. Allen is close to the bottom of his.
Allen's position matters a lot more than Barkley's  
Go Terps : 1/15/2019 7:21 pm : link
I broke this down yesterday in another thread. I know Barkley caught a ton of passes, but the four games in which he was targeted 10+ times were losses where we scored 20 points or less. I'm not able to go back over each of his receptions, but I'd bet my paycheck he had a lot of 8 yard catches on 3rd and 10+.

Point being, for all his talent he was poorly deployed and he didn't impact games. He's a special player that made some special plays, but most of the work he did last year - particularly as a receiver - could have been done by anybody.

That ain't on him...it's on the coaching staff that wasted him in year 1.

And I don't really care about Josh Allen's completion percentage. With him as a starter the Bills went 5-6. In the remainder of their games they went 1-4. He made a difference.
You get  
crick n NC : 1/15/2019 8:39 pm : link
The ball to Barkley even on eight yard passes that come up short of a first down. He is a threat every time he touches the ball.

Also, Barkley didn't impact games? Am I missing something?
RE: Allen's position matters a lot more than Barkley's  
arcarsenal : 1/15/2019 8:41 pm : link
In comment 14264737 Go Terps said:
Quote:
I broke this down yesterday in another thread. I know Barkley caught a ton of passes, but the four games in which he was targeted 10+ times were losses where we scored 20 points or less. I'm not able to go back over each of his receptions, but I'd bet my paycheck he had a lot of 8 yard catches on 3rd and 10+.

Point being, for all his talent he was poorly deployed and he didn't impact games. He's a special player that made some special plays, but most of the work he did last year - particularly as a receiver - could have been done by anybody.

That ain't on him...it's on the coaching staff that wasted him in year 1.

And I don't really care about Josh Allen's completion percentage. With him as a starter the Bills went 5-6. In the remainder of their games they went 1-4. He made a difference.


I stopped reading when you said Barkley "didn't impact games"

I like to think you know your stuff - but comments like that really make me wonder.
.  
arcarsenal : 1/15/2019 8:43 pm : link
The Allen point is awful, too.

You crush the Giants for everything, refuse to say that the post bye play was an improvement here despite the difference in record, but readily give Josh Allen credit for a losing record just because the backup options were horrid and impossible to win games with while he was out.

They were still a losing football team WITH him, and if completing just 52% of passes in a year where completion percentages were up across the board and saw several QB's approach 70%, that is a HUGE red flag.

Allen was not good this year and the Giants would have been worse football team if they drafted him.
.  
arcarsenal : 1/15/2019 8:45 pm : link
Saquon Barkley is a legitimate RoY candidate and I'm reading posts where you tell me the team "wasted" him.

What the heck am I reading here?
.  
arcarsenal : 1/15/2019 8:47 pm : link
One last point...

The go-to move seems to be to constantly assign assessment to individual players using their team records.

I shouldn't have to explain why that is a really poor method of evaluation again, but maybe I do - because it keeps being used as a way to prop up shitty non-Giants and knock down anyone who IS a Giant. Including incredibly talented players like Barkley and Beckham.
RE: Allen's position matters a lot more than Barkley's  
Ssanders9816 : 1/15/2019 8:53 pm : link
In comment 14264737 Go Terps said:
Quote:
I broke this down yesterday in another thread. I know Barkley caught a ton of passes, but the four games in which he was targeted 10+ times were losses where we scored 20 points or less. I'm not able to go back over each of his receptions, but I'd bet my paycheck he had a lot of 8 yard catches on 3rd and 10+.

Point being, for all his talent he was poorly deployed and he didn't impact games. He's a special player that made some special plays, but most of the work he did last year - particularly as a receiver - could have been done by anybody.

That ain't on him...it's on the coaching staff that wasted him in year 1.

And I don't really care about Josh Allen's completion percentage. With him as a starter the Bills went 5-6. In the remainder of their games they went 1-4. He made a difference.


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😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂.
RE: Allen's position matters a lot more than Barkley's  
Strahan91 : 1/15/2019 8:54 pm : link
In comment 14264737 Go Terps said:
Quote:
I broke this down yesterday in another thread. I know Barkley caught a ton of passes, but the four games in which he was targeted 10+ times were losses where we scored 20 points or less. I'm not able to go back over each of his receptions, but I'd bet my paycheck he had a lot of 8 yard catches on 3rd and 10+.

Point being, for all his talent he was poorly deployed and he didn't impact games. He's a special player that made some special plays, but most of the work he did last year - particularly as a receiver - could have been done by anybody.

That ain't on him...it's on the coaching staff that wasted him in year 1.

And I don't really care about Josh Allen's completion percentage. With him as a starter the Bills went 5-6. In the remainder of their games they went 1-4. He made a difference.

Holy cow. Talk about cherry picking stats to fit a narrative. One of those losses was the game Allen got hurt for one. Two, the losses were against NE, Indy, Houston and Chicago — all playoff teams. Allen didn’t win a single game against a playoff team.

The reason for your Barkley stat is that the Giants were already losing and playing catch up which meant lots of dumpoffs. Sure, they didn’t utilize him well in the passing game but all else being equal, you’d win a lot more games with Barkley and a crappy QB than Allen with a crappy RB. Buffalo won one more game than we did and that’s with their elite defense and with 4 games against the Jets and Dolphins.
Wins and losses are what matters  
Go Terps : 1/15/2019 9:01 pm : link
Yardage totals aren't as important, and individual awards are not important at all, particularly when the team goes 5-11.

No one is knocking Barkley. My point is that with him on our offense getting all those yards we still struggled to score points and win games. The way he was used limited his effectiveness.

You said above that the Bills might be in trouble with Allen. If that's true, it's also true about us despite Barkley's presence.
Judging Josh Allen this year is silly  
Zeke's Alibi : 1/15/2019 9:01 pm : link
Look at the type of numbers Lesean McCoy put up this year. That offense is fucking putrid.
I can't stress enough  
Go Terps : 1/15/2019 9:06 pm : link
No one is knocking Barkley. He a great talent and he played great in 2018.

The point is, what difference did he make? He made some incredible plays and put up 2000 yards, and the offense still sucked. What does that tell you?
RE: Wins and losses are what matters  
arcarsenal : 1/15/2019 9:08 pm : link
In comment 14264810 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Yardage totals aren't as important, and individual awards are not important at all, particularly when the team goes 5-11.

No one is knocking Barkley. My point is that with him on our offense getting all those yards we still struggled to score points and win games. The way he was used limited his effectiveness.

You said above that the Bills might be in trouble with Allen. If that's true, it's also true about us despite Barkley's presence.


It's not - because the Giants are never going to be held hostage by a RB the way teams get stuck with QB's. Hell, most teams use 2 and 3 RB's simultaneously. You don't marry yourself to one individual player there - but you do at the QB position - which is why there's a big difference.

Barkley will never throw a wrench in the Giants plans the way middling QB's do.

Of course the record is the most important part, but can't use this logic you keep using where you say "player x was on a team with a bad record, therefore player x is not a good investment" - you'll never wind up with a good football team if your criteria for a worthwhile football player is only one who plays on teams with good W/L records.

It is a bad way to evaluate players. Barkley had tons of impact. But when you're adding good players to a really bad team, they aren't going to push the needle far enough on their own.

We need MORE Barkleys and MORE Beckham's. Talent is the biggest problem here - we don't have enough. Barkley was awesome. He can be part of the solution. But we won't get better until we do more to fix the lines, do more to get to opposing QB's, and figure out our own QB future.
RE: Wins and losses are what matters  
crick n NC : 1/15/2019 9:09 pm : link
In comment 14264810 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Yardage totals aren't as important, and individual awards are not important at all, particularly when the team goes 5-11.

No one is knocking Barkley. My point is that with him on our offense getting all those yards we still struggled to score points and win games. The way he was used limited his effectiveness.

You said above that the Bills might be in trouble with Allen. If that's true, it's also true about us despite Barkley's presence.


Barkley is a component, you add components to make a unit. Barkley even as great as he was past year is only a single component. The wins will happen once they get other components (coaching is another component). The giants have missed on high draft picks so they are behind. You are putting way too much responsibility on Barkley, an individual for a team game
The Giants don't need more Barkely's and Beckham's  
Zeke's Alibi : 1/15/2019 9:11 pm : link
They need more guys that legitimately belong on NFL rosters. The Giants top end talent was fine. The problem is NFL is a TEAM sport. You need 22 guys who can play.
The top end talent  
Zeke's Alibi : 1/15/2019 9:12 pm : link
is mistakenly why many people hyped the Giants in the preseason even though they only won 3 games last year.
RE: The Giants don't need more Barkely's and Beckham's  
arcarsenal : 1/15/2019 9:15 pm : link
In comment 14264827 Zeke's Alibi said:
Quote:
They need more guys that legitimately belong on NFL rosters. The Giants top end talent was fine. The problem is NFL is a TEAM sport. You need 22 guys who can play.


You're taking my post too literally - the point is that NYG need more talent. We won't get better by passing on players like Barkley in the draft because he's a running back or by narrowing our criteria to only players that we think can somehow win us games singlehandedly.

Like I said in my above post - we need more offensive line help, we need to be able to rush the passer, we need more DB depth, and depth in general.

I don't actually expect twenty two #26's and #13's - but I also don't expect the Giants to be a better football team until they fill out their roster with better football players.
Just a nugget on information...  
bw in dc : 1/15/2019 9:16 pm : link
from Thanksgiving to the end of the season, the leading rusher in the NFL was Josh Allen. He really demonstrated better athleticism than most of us thought. He's a horse.

And to be fair, Buffalo is not an elite team on the offensive side of the ball - anywhere. They need a infusion of talent before we can really assess Allen as a thrower. I think of us agree this is the same sentiment for Rosen, too.
.  
arcarsenal : 1/15/2019 9:18 pm : link
Crick gets it - that's the same point I am making.

Component is a good word to use. Barkley is one - a large one. But we're still missing pieces and until we have those pieces, the overall unit won't be good enough.

But Barkley gets us closer. Which is why you make that investment even if he doesn't get us all the way.

I'm also pretty sure that more top flight talent would only help NYG - not hurt them. Doesn't mean I expect that or think it's an actual model to follow - but there's certainly nothing BAD about adding elite talent to a football team.
RE: Just a nugget on information...  
Zeke's Alibi : 1/15/2019 9:21 pm : link
In comment 14264832 bw in dc said:
Quote:
from Thanksgiving to the end of the season, the leading rusher in the NFL was Josh Allen. He really demonstrated better athleticism than most of us thought. He's a horse.

And to be fair, Buffalo is not an elite team on the offensive side of the ball - anywhere. They need a infusion of talent before we can really assess Allen as a thrower. I think of us agree this is the same sentiment for Rosen, too.


The cardinals actually have some nice skill players. Their offensive line is putrid though. Hard to judge a pure pocket passer on that. Although I would have hoped he put up better numbers than he did.
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