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| 3. Nate Solder, OT, New York Giants Deal: Four years, $62 million Sick of disappointing 2015 first-round pick Ereck Flowers, who never developed into the franchise left tackle the Giants expected him to be when they picked him No. 9 overall, the Giants won a bidding war for the 30-year-old Solder. It cost them a $62 million contract with $34.8 million in full guarantees. At the time, it made Solder the highest-paid tackle in NFL history. Only nine NFL teams allowed more sacks than the Giants did in 2018. |
As for FMiC's and UConn's questions about what the fans are supposed to do...how about stop making excuses for incompetence, to start? How about holding Mara, Gettleman, and Shurmur accountable for the dreadful jobs they each did in 2018?
I say this, knowing that whoever grades and ranks the players won't account for that fact. Thus, banging the head against the wall continues.
As for holding them all accountable, how does one do that? Should I write them a strongly worded letter?
First off, how the fuck do fans hold anyone accountable, especially seeing most know even know what the fuck they are looking at? Do I hold the key to Gettleman's job?
Secondly, if people are going to be critical, shouldn't it be expected that people also point out what was done well?
You directly said many times that Gettleman and Shurmur should've been fired. Beat that drum daily. Isn't that just as irrational as if somebody glorified their moves? And by the way- try to find a poster that glorifies their moves. You won't the best you'll find is supposed "excuse making".
I'm sorry we didn't employ the strategy of stockpiling a stable of mobile QB's. But I'm sure the giants, nor any other team is sorry they didn't or haven't.
It's hard to hear about incompetence when the poster saying it espouses never giving players a second contract and thinks having 3-4 cheap QB's on the roster is the key to success.
As for holding them all accountable, how does one do that? Should I write them a strongly worded letter?
You're on a fan message board we know gets viewed by people close to the team. We know reporters come on the site, and we know Pat Hanlon's visited the site.
You aren't stupid...call it like you see it. If you aren't happy, say so. The team is shit and the people running it are doing poor work. I don't think pretending otherwise in any forum helps the discourse here or sends a good message to the team.
If there were more that I could do than complain here, I would. If I had season tickets I would have sold my seats to Cowboys fans for the last game.
These guys thought they'd compete in 2018, and we saw how far off they were in their assessment of the team and of their own ability. Then the message changed to "hey Reese and McAdoo sucked and we're cleaning up their mess...remember this was about the culture and moving on from 3-13."
To come out of the preseason looking like an unmade bed and then try to punt that onto the previous regime was absolutely pathetic. I'm disappointed in Mara for being OK with that.
That said I have scaled back on everything due to my general disgust with the NFL for a number of reasons. I don't make time for games anymore and cancelled my Red Zone subscription last year and won't ever renew it. I doubt the NFL cares, but that's a few shekels they will never get back from me.
Could it be, he doesn't suck, was definitely an overpay, but still a solid signing moving forward based on his overall body of work and how he bounced back in the 2nd half of the season?
I struggle to find a guy as accomplished as him take so much immediate criticism, even from Day 1 and the way he was hired.
There are a few posters here who have literally not given him one positive comment. The guy can draft the best player in the draft and still be called a old buffoon and most people don't even see the issue in that.
Using the rationale here, Terps would've called for Parcells to be fired in '83 and probably would've used the Brunner example as irrefutable evidence why.
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I directly answered Eric's question saying that DG likely wouldn't sign Solder if he can go back, unless they had a couple more wins. That isn't an excuse, that's my opinion.
As for holding them all accountable, how does one do that? Should I write them a strongly worded letter?
You're on a fan message board we know gets viewed by people close to the team. We know reporters come on the site, and we know Pat Hanlon's visited the site.
You aren't stupid...call it like you see it. If you aren't happy, say so. The team is shit and the people running it are doing poor work. I don't think pretending otherwise in any forum helps the discourse here or sends a good message to the team.
If there were more that I could do than complain here, I would. If I had season tickets I would have sold my seats to Cowboys fans for the last game.
Do you really fucking believe they are going to switch their thought process based on what they read here? You want the people in charge of the Giants to make decisions based of fans opinions? That is beyond moronic.
These guys thought they'd compete in 2018, and we saw how far off they were in their assessment of the team and of their own ability. Then the message changed to "hey Reese and McAdoo sucked and we're cleaning up their mess...remember this was about the culture and moving on from 3-13."
To come out of the preseason looking like an unmade bed and then try to punt that onto the previous regime was absolutely pathetic. I'm disappointed in Mara for being OK with that.
This is why I take what Gettleman says with a grain of salt. He's a good salesman. But the answers to the FA questions were weak. Man up and simply say we've got to do a better job in free agency.
I keep hearing, "What choice did the Giants have?" There are always other options. The other options may not be pretty, but sometimes they are better for the long-term. We just had another losing season. And Nate Solder's contract sticks out like sore thumb. Meanwhile, you've got folks blaming Odell's contract for the Giants' salary cap woes. It's not Odell's contract that is the problem but contracts like the one the Giants gave Rhett Ellison (this was Reese, and he's an OK player but not worth the money), Nate Solder (Gettleman), Vernon Olivier (Reese), etc.
When you draft poorly, you overcompensate in FA and it causes long-term issues. I still find is startling that this is somehow a controversial point of view.
I struggle to find a guy as accomplished as him take so much immediate criticism, even from Day 1 and the way he was hired.
There are a few posters here who have literally not given him one positive comment. The guy can draft the best player in the draft and still be called a old buffoon and most people don't even see the issue in that.
Using the rationale here, Terps would've called for Parcells to be fired in '83 and probably would've used the Brunner example as irrefutable evidence why.
Exactly. Gettleman's hands were tied because of the abysmal drafts in the past. If he handcuffed the new coaching regime with garbage and malcontents in the locker room that is not how you solidify a foundation going forward. I highly doubt he gives out contracts so freely like he did this past offseason. This is a guy infamous around the league for not overpaying for talent and now he's some drunken sailor. Gotta give the guy a couple draft classes to build the team the way he sees fit.
I'll stick by what I said. He played well as the season went on. He was dreadful early on but didn't allow a sack through the last 6 games against some good defensive lines.
He was injured earlier in the season and also admitted that it took him some time to get comfortable so I'll give him a pass and expect he starts out 2019 the way he ended 2018.
Could it be, he doesn't suck, was definitely an overpay, but still a solid signing moving forward based on his overall body of work and how he bounced back in the 2nd half of the season?
Complaining about the offensive line the last 8 years and still not being happy we picked up an above average left tackle makes no sense and while posters here will say that is not what they saw, i'll trust the opinion of those who watch each game multiple times.
Go Terps : 3:24 pm : link : reply
It's hard for me to see a strategy we employed beyond, "Let's make one more run with Eli."
If you took that to be the strategy even though we turned over nearly 70% of the roster and exactly 50% of the starters and traded away JPP. I don't know what to say.
To me the strategy was to try and fill the team with better players and fill gaps where they've been poor, especially at LB and OL. They failed on Onameah, did OK with Ogletree and Solder.
There's not a lot of evidence they planned to make one last run with Eli other than they didn't draft a QB, but seeing Barkley, is that really still the question??
The issue is, you feel very confident that a guy overhauled the roster, picked a RB and gave money to the OL and LB just to placate the owner and fans and make a run with Eli? It doesn't compute.
Disappointment has caused a lot if irrational thinking.
Did he come here and read the comments? Was that the right move?
He's not above average. He's as average as average can be in every way.....other than salary. He's way above average there.
Greg from LI : 3:31 pm : link : reply
He had one team go to the Super Bowl largely on the backs of players who were already on the team when he was hired.
As executive
2× Super Bowl champion (XLII, XLVI)
4× NFC Champion (2000, 2007, 2011, 2015)
As administrator
5× AFC Champion (1990, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1997)
Super Bowl champion (XXXII)
All by luck, I'm sure.
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still not being happy we picked up an above average left tackle
He's not above average. He's as average as average can be in every way.....other than salary. He's way above average there.
His overall track record and his play after the bye say otherwise. If he was as bad as everyone here says he is, i don't see how he would have ranked as PFF's 21st overall tackle.
But when Eli was benched, Mara and Reese hid for a day or two.
Then the shitstorm hit and Mara told McAdoo to start Eli again.
That reaction was completely based on fan reaction to the benching.
But I still contend fans were more pissed with (1) the way Eli was benched, and (2) the fact they went with the Jets reject instead of the draft pick. I also contend that at that point, it would have been better to still go with the draft pick. Wasted opportunity in a wasted season.
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As accomplished as him?
Greg from LI : 3:31 pm : link : reply
He had one team go to the Super Bowl largely on the backs of players who were already on the team when he was hired.
As executive
2× Super Bowl champion (XLII, XLVI)
4× NFC Champion (2000, 2007, 2011, 2015)
As administrator
5× AFC Champion (1990, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1997)
Super Bowl champion (XXXII)
All by luck, I'm sure.
When they rebuttal with his misses on Omameh and Stewart, please list all of his signings as a pro personnel guy.
New York Giants 2018 Free Agency Scorecard - ( New Window )
But you'll be hard pressed to find guys with similar success in so many places.
The amount of shit he takes here is absurd, especially seeing that the majority of moves he made or wanted to make in Carolina turned out to be pretty good, including the idea he "reached" for McCaffery or wanted to look at ways to unload Davis and Olsen.
Do you really fucking believe they are going to switch their thought process based on what they read here? You want the people in charge of the Giants to make decisions based of fans opinions? That is beyond moronic.
It's not. In fact, it couldn't be more accurate.
The actions - well, reactions - of Mara when the Eli benching occurred was 100% driven by the media & fan revolt. He needed to stop the rioters, so he gave the rioters what they wanted - two heads: Reese and McAdoo. And that appeased the rioters and bought Mara time, and allowed him to deftly direct the blame away from him onto Reese and McAdoo.
It's worked like a charm...
But when Eli was benched, Mara and Reese hid for a day or two.
Then the shitstorm hit and Mara told McAdoo to start Eli again.
That reaction was completely based on fan reaction to the benching.
But I still contend fans were more pissed with (1) the way Eli was benched, and (2) the fact they went with the Jets reject instead of the draft pick. I also contend that at that point, it would have been better to still go with the draft pick. Wasted opportunity in a wasted season.
This 100 percent. The ironic part is McAdoo was trying to prove a point about Eli to save his job. If he had played Webb there is a decent chance he is still coaching here.
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Giants officials tell me all of the time they read this site. Does it impact their decision making on a regular basis? Hell no.
But when Eli was benched, Mara and Reese hid for a day or two.
Then the shitstorm hit and Mara told McAdoo to start Eli again.
That reaction was completely based on fan reaction to the benching.
But I still contend fans were more pissed with (1) the way Eli was benched, and (2) the fact they went with the Jets reject instead of the draft pick. I also contend that at that point, it would have been better to still go with the draft pick. Wasted opportunity in a wasted season.
This 100 percent. The ironic part is McAdoo was trying to prove a point about Eli to save his job. If he had played Webb there is a decent chance he is still coaching here.
The team had quit on McAdoo, opponents were calling out their plays pre-snap based on formation (habit), he'd lost the locker room very quickly.
Reese was an integral part of our SB success. The 2007 draft was excellent. Unfortunately, the drafts that followed were absurdly poor.
McAdoo led one of the worst seasons in recent history, with player revolts, benchings and complete chaos.
Both guys were getting fired. the Eli situation just accelerated it from the end of teh year to during the year.
No one here is saying he nailed free agency. But when people like yourself keep harping on it, it makes no sense.
Are the Stewart and Omameh contracts killing them for years to come?
Dave Gettleman's track record is anything but average. FMiC and myself have posted his credentials many times. If you want to focus on the fact signing Jonathan Stewart was a mistake, go ahead. The reality is, that mistake isn't going to kill the team moving forward.
Fan reaction did clearly have a say in Eli being put back in when he was benched. I don't think anyone can argue that. Was that the right move? Debatable. I don't want to get into that situation on here because my opinion is going to piss a lot of people off.
He had virtually nothing along the OL.
They were also switching from a 4-3 to a 3-4 scheme under a new coordinator.
When you consider you need roster depth during OTAs and training camp as well as guys to help a new coordinator implement his system and then realize that you have limited resources between the salary cap and the draft, you're going to get signings like Martin and Mauro. You're going to overpay to bring in the stability of a guy like Solder and take a chance on Omameh.
Obviously, not all of these plans worked out, but that's actually where I think Gettleman deserves the credit to cut his losses and keep trying.
There's not a lot of evidence they planned to make one last run with Eli other than they didn't draft a QB, but seeing Barkley, is that really still the question??
Speaking of irrational thinking, this is it.
I forget the poster, but he came up with a host of great quotes by Gettleman or Mara or both this past summer where it was abundantly clear that they thought they built this team in the off-season to compete IMMEDIATELY.
It made me laugh out loud, but it just re-affirmed my thought all along - let's get it done for Eli.
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what Gettleman did in free agency last year... New York Giants 2018 Free Agency Scorecard - ( New Window )
No one here is saying he nailed free agency. But when people like yourself keep harping on it, it makes no sense.
Are the Stewart and Omameh contracts killing them for years to come?
Dave Gettleman's track record is anything but average. FMiC and myself have posted his credentials many times. If you want to focus on the fact signing Jonathan Stewart was a mistake, go ahead. The reality is, that mistake isn't going to kill the team moving forward.
Fan reaction did clearly have a say in Eli being put back in when he was benched. I don't think anyone can argue that. Was that the right move? Debatable. I don't want to get into that situation on here because my opinion is going to piss a lot of people off.
I'm not sure I understand where you are coming from.
The original point of this post was to link to an article that identified the best/worst free agent moves. Solder was identified as one of the worst FA moves. You don't agree but others on this thread do agree. However, you seem to have an issue with those who disagree with you... calling the debate "stupid."
I said above (and I've said numerous times), Gettleman did well in the draft and poorly in free agency. I think he would like to have a do-over on his free agency period if he could.
I'm not anti-Gettleman at all. I am merely point out the positives and the negatives.
He had virtually nothing along the OL.
They were also switching from a 4-3 to a 3-4 scheme under a new coordinator.
When you consider you need roster depth during OTAs and training camp as well as guys to help a new coordinator implement his system and then realize that you have limited resources between the salary cap and the draft, you're going to get signings like Martin and Mauro. You're going to overpay to bring in the stability of a guy like Solder and take a chance on Omameh.
Obviously, not all of these plans worked out, but that's actually where I think Gettleman deserves the credit to cut his losses and keep trying.
I like his ability to recognize mistakes, i also understand when people point out that ability will be useless if he does in fact make too many mistakes.
I'm tired of reading about Omameh's deal on here. There is a reason they were able to get out of that contract during the year.
(You can also replace "Giants" with "Eli" or "Odell" or other specific players, coaches, or front office types).
The truth usually isn't so black and white. It's completely fair game to criticize or praise members of the team on a fan-based bulletin board. And doing so doesn't make you a "troll" or "homer".
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In comment 14264531 Eric from BBI said:
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what Gettleman did in free agency last year... New York Giants 2018 Free Agency Scorecard - ( New Window )
No one here is saying he nailed free agency. But when people like yourself keep harping on it, it makes no sense.
Are the Stewart and Omameh contracts killing them for years to come?
Dave Gettleman's track record is anything but average. FMiC and myself have posted his credentials many times. If you want to focus on the fact signing Jonathan Stewart was a mistake, go ahead. The reality is, that mistake isn't going to kill the team moving forward.
Fan reaction did clearly have a say in Eli being put back in when he was benched. I don't think anyone can argue that. Was that the right move? Debatable. I don't want to get into that situation on here because my opinion is going to piss a lot of people off.
I'm not sure I understand where you are coming from.
The original point of this post was to link to an article that identified the best/worst free agent moves. Solder was identified as one of the worst FA moves. You don't agree but others on this thread do agree. However, you seem to have an issue with those who disagree with you... calling the debate "stupid."
I said above (and I've said numerous times), Gettleman did well in the draft and poorly in free agency. I think he would like to have a do-over on his free agency period if he could.
I'm not anti-Gettleman at all. I am merely point out the positives and the negatives.
If second half of the year Solder is the player we get consistently, i'm sorry but it is stupid to complain about an above average tackle. I'm not sitting here and just going off the top of my head. I am reiterating the opinion of many who watch the film - a lot.
You do understand where i am coming from, you disagree.
(You can also replace "Giants" with "Eli" or "Odell" or other specific players, coaches, or front office types).
The truth usually isn't so black and white. It's completely fair game to criticize or praise members of the team on a fan-based bulletin board. And doing so doesn't make you a "troll" or "homer".
Its also completely fair to call out the same regurgitated criticism. Its fair to call out people who write comments that state we should fire the GM and HC after one year. Its pretty obvious people are not happy with the state of the Giants and will not be until they win, i get that. But when threads are littered with the same negative takes that are simple and don't include facts, its annoying.
(You can also replace "Giants" with "Eli" or "Odell" or other specific players, coaches, or front office types).
The truth usually isn't so black and white. It's completely fair game to criticize or praise members of the team on a fan-based bulletin board. And doing so doesn't make you a "troll" or "homer".
That's fair, but there remains one incontrovertible fact: the team was putrid in 2018 by every objective measure.
(You can also replace "Giants" with "Eli" or "Odell" or other specific players, coaches, or front office types).
The truth usually isn't so black and white. It's completely fair game to criticize or praise members of the team on a fan-based bulletin board. And doing so doesn't make you a "troll" or "homer".
Eric - You're posting a lot today. Are you one of the furloughed? ;)
Put another way, you shouldn't judge long-term investments on 1 year. (Although you still should use the results from 1 year to update your thinking.)
(You can also replace "Giants" with "Eli" or "Odell" or other specific players, coaches, or front office types).
The truth usually isn't so black and white. It's completely fair game to criticize or praise members of the team on a fan-based bulletin board. And doing so doesn't make you a "troll" or "homer".
You got it wrong Eric. It’s not that people are irritated if the Giants are criticized. What we are tired of is the same usual clowns, with the same agenda, and the same one note message who who have become caricatures and nothing new to say. They suck any joy out of football and of being a Giants fan. It’s why so many long time posters don’t bother anymore.
(You can also replace "Giants" with "Eli" or "Odell" or other specific players, coaches, or front office types).
The truth usually isn't so black and white. It's completely fair game to criticize or praise members of the team on a fan-based bulletin board. And doing so doesn't make you a "troll" or "homer".
Agree.
And btw its also okay if any poster(s) want to predominately (or solely) criticize or praise on the site. It probably exposes you somewhat for others to question your motives, but like anything else...that's your prerogative.
Unfortunately the questioning of motives seems to have also run rampant here on BBI as the team has deteriorated, but that's others' prerogative as well.
But it does indeed create shitty threads as we go 'round in circles...
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There seems to be vocal minorities who get irritated if (1) the Giants are criticized or (2) the team is praised.
(You can also replace "Giants" with "Eli" or "Odell" or other specific players, coaches, or front office types).
The truth usually isn't so black and white. It's completely fair game to criticize or praise members of the team on a fan-based bulletin board. And doing so doesn't make you a "troll" or "homer".
You got it wrong Eric. It’s not that people are irritated if the Giants are criticized. What we are tired of is the same usual clowns, with the same agenda, and the same one note message who who have become caricatures and nothing new to say. They suck any joy out of football and of being a Giants fan. It’s why so many long time posters don’t bother anymore.
I misunderstood what you were saying Eric, but I stand by my point. Things are getting tiresome
I actually don't have an answer to what I would have done differently than DG did with respect to this Solder signing...other than to say I wouldn't have done this for certain. Paying top dollar to a very average LT to come onto a declining team with a declining QB makes no inherent sense to me.
And in my book, you don't get kudos by using up the salary cap each year not by shedding your mistakes quickly once you have a change of mind.
Imv, DG made some bad "big-time" moves, some bad "little" moves and also had some good moves too. Unfortunately he inherited a team that needs far more of the latter...
It's unreal he really thought the Giants team would be good in 2018.
SO most everyone on the planet thought Gmen were going to NOT be a playoff team and yet "we had to sign Solder" for that insane contract as someone implies "well what the fans have thought?"
It's just unreal the excuses made for some of these Giants fans.
DG was going after Norwell -- yet you hear some say "well we needed to get soldier."
The idiocy of that logic. Further when you are expected to stink you don;t go and get an older type player who was never that great and make him #1 paid in the NFL.
The fact that some Giants fans see the logic in that is just mind-boggling and scary.