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| 3. Nate Solder, OT, New York Giants Deal: Four years, $62 million Sick of disappointing 2015 first-round pick Ereck Flowers, who never developed into the franchise left tackle the Giants expected him to be when they picked him No. 9 overall, the Giants won a bidding war for the 30-year-old Solder. It cost them a $62 million contract with $34.8 million in full guarantees. At the time, it made Solder the highest-paid tackle in NFL history. Only nine NFL teams allowed more sacks than the Giants did in 2018. |
Yup. Should have been on that signing.
- Dave Gettleman
No, he wouldn’t have. And you’ve even said as much in other threads. When was the last time the Patriots gave anyone a second big contract? They can replace anyone with anyone in their system.
We needed him, and I am happy with his performance from week 9 on. He was great after that. Going forward, we are set at LT (or even RT should a new stud LT arrive)
You forget the Pats offered Soldier almost as much as the Giants did. It's not like they didn't want him or weren't going to pay him huge bucks.
Stay with Flowers?
Or find some unknown who was out of football to play LT?
There wasn't any other options
Pick one
Solder wasn't a great signing but he was the best option.
By contrast, Solder cost us 22M this year....
And Trent Brown was a much better LT than Solder.....
Yes, Brown is a one year rental for 2M and cost a 3rd round pick, but man did he play lights out for the Pats this season....
We overpaid 22M, and what did we get for it in comparison?
But what do you expect from that hack Graziano and BSPN...
He really had no choice but to pay Solder.
By contrast, Solder cost us 22M this year....
And Trent Brown was a much better LT than Solder.....
Yes, Brown is a one year rental for 2M and cost a 3rd round pick, but man did he play lights out for the Pats this season....
We overpaid 22M, and what did we get for it in comparison?
We aren't the fucking Patriots. Brown would not have performed well on this line.
Stay with Flowers?
Or find some unknown who was out of football to play LT?
There wasn't any other options
Pick one
Solder wasn't a great signing but he was the best option.
I would have started by hiring a better OL coach. The way the offensive line looked coming out of training camp and preseason was a fireable offense.
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for Solder, costing a 3rd round draft pick for Trent He He He traded a 3rd round pick for Trent Brown(they got a 5th rounder back), and he cost less than 2M....
By contrast, Solder cost us 22M this year....
And Trent Brown was a much better LT than Solder.....
Yes, Brown is a one year rental for 2M and cost a 3rd round pick, but man did he play lights out for the Pats this season....
We overpaid 22M, and what did we get for it in comparison?
We aren't the fucking Patriots. Brown would not have performed well on this line.
We aren't the Patriots in part because we do stupid things like overpay to fill holes on the roster.
Yeah we overspent on Solder. I wonder why. Ohh I know, we don't have Brady, we don't have Belichick, and our staff isn't as good either at developing talent.
I'm all for assessing what we don't do well, but using the same, cliched arguments points to what BB does isn't very productive.
Solari was highly regarded, then he gets here and can't make chicken salad out of shit and gets lambasted. Then he moves along and gets praised.
Can't just blame the coaching.
And I shudder to think the commentary if DG failed to sign OL in the offseason.
Yeah we overspent on Solder. I wonder why. Ohh I know, we don't have Brady, we don't have Belichick, and our staff isn't as good either at developing talent.
I'm all for assessing what we don't do well, but using the same, cliched arguments points to what BB does isn't very productive.
I said it on another thread...people talk like Belichick is a wizard who achieves success through some mythical powers. Part of that might be true, but part of what he does well (specifically, roster management) is clear for all to see and learn from.
It's been a copycat league since its inception. When Bill Walsh advanced the West Coast offense was the rest of the league not supposed to take note and try to incorporate it?
One of Belichick's genius contributions to the NFL is his roster management in the salary cap/FA era. It's brilliant, sustainable, and visible for all to see.
The roster management side has tried to be copied, but on teams without that coach/QB combo, it just doesn't work the same. Having the combo of a HoF Coach and a HoF QB isn't easy to duplicate.
The roster management side has tried to be copied, but on teams without that coach/QB combo, it just doesn't work the same. Having the combo of a HoF Coach and a HoF QB isn't easy to duplicate.
Who tried to copy it?
While I understand it's easy to pile on Solder, he left the great coaching of Dante Scarnecchia for the highly dubious coaching and "expertise" of Hal Hunter.
On top of that, he left Belichick and McDaniels, two proven experts, for the less impressive coaching of Shurmur and Shula.
He must of felt like he went from the penthouse into the outhouse.
Really? So little bill has never let a player walk that he wanted to keep? I find that hard to believe.
We could always go with the cheaper and shittier Flowers at LT or some other mess and call it a day. Would you guys feel better with some cheaper slob at LT? I know I wouldn’t.
I guess we can’t acknowledge how well solder played once he got his sea legs here?
The Falcons have used this approach. The Eagles have been lauded for years for getting rid of guys before they hit their decline. The Colts and Niners have tried to stockpile draft picks to build a team and fill in starting lineups, and the colts approach this year was pretty damn effective.
Even his own division rivals, the Bills and Dolphins have tried to avoid costly second contracts and stay fluid with the cap - but it hasn't paid off.
BB is a huge difference maker. Think about his GM competency - it isn't great. He's not fantastic at the draft or FA, but they win. The system - which is based on excellent coaching and the QB are what drives it
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as some sort of realistic barometer.
Yeah we overspent on Solder. I wonder why. Ohh I know, we don't have Brady, we don't have Belichick, and our staff isn't as good either at developing talent.
I'm all for assessing what we don't do well, but using the same, cliched arguments points to what BB does isn't very productive.
I said it on another thread...people talk like Belichick is a wizard who achieves success through some mythical powers. Part of that might be true, but part of what he does well (specifically, roster management) is clear for all to see and learn from.
It's been a copycat league since its inception. When Bill Walsh advanced the West Coast offense was the rest of the league not supposed to take note and try to incorporate it?
One of Belichick's genius contributions to the NFL is his roster management in the salary cap/FA era. It's brilliant, sustainable, and visible for all to see.
You very much over simplify the Pats/BB dynamic and pass it along as a blueprint that should be easy to follow. It isn't. This is a copy cat league and most, if not all teams fail at trying to copy what they do.
And the reason why is BB/Brady. BB is able to ditch guys early because he knows he can find a player that fits in their system and/or will create a specialty role for that player.
He's busted plenty as a GM but survives because he's the ultimate tactician. Those bad signings usually kill other teams.
I've asked you many times on many threads over the years, but why aren't you pointing to any other coach/franchise? The reason is, you really can't. That dynamic is a diamond in the rough, the perfect storm of QB/Coaching. Some of it may be transferable, but the bulk of it can't be duplicated. Someone would have done it by now.
Its funny seeing people complain about him. This team has how many holes right now and you're upset they figured out LT for probably 3-4 years?
Would be really nice to upgrade at C and RT. I think we can definitely fulfill 1 in the draft, but the other may need to be a tier 2 FA.
They transformed from a defensive dominant team to an offensive dominant team. They morphed from a run-centric team to a vertical passing team to a short route passing team to a more run/pass balanced team. They went from small receivers to big receivers to a mix of receivers. They went to having their primary receiver being a TE. They have used huge lineman in their 3-4 to a smaller, more athletic types. And on and on and on.
I personally am fine with the Solder signing. I know its hard to believe for some but we could have done alot worse.
Its funny seeing people complain about him. This team has how many holes right now and you're upset they figured out LT for probably 3-4 years?
You are happy with Solder's performance after being given elite-level pay? How far expectations for this team have fallen.
basically the assumption is that unless the entire OL was excellent, then there wasn't any reason to sign Solder. And that's not the way it should be looked at. He should be looked at as a building block. He and Hernandez were solid, but again, if they hadn't signed Solder and went with a UDFA or a middle draft pick there, we'd be screaming about that too.
It's likely unless we spend a lot on the OL in the offseason that we will have a cost-controlled group - with Solder having the expensive contract. Shouldn't be a burden to the cap.
Like the Giants, many of the fans have grown very comfortable with losing.
If everytime the team has a losing season, should wholesale changes be made - should fans scream to fire everyone? Because as pointed out before, doing that would've neutered Bill Parcells before he got started. Would have gotten a lot of coaches fired.
I mean it might be fucking awesome to complain about everything, espouse new ways to roster build by stockpiling mobile QB's and basically call the entire organization inept on a daily basis, but that really seems like a shitty way to go about the day.
I don't think fans accept losing as much as a great deal of them inflate their cognitive abilities to believe they are superior to those of people actually running things. It's one of the few constants among fanbases.
If everytime the team has a losing season, should wholesale changes be made - should fans scream to fire everyone? Because as pointed out before, doing that would've neutered Bill Parcells before he got started. Would have gotten a lot of coaches fired.
I mean it might be fucking awesome to complain about everything, espouse new ways to roster build by stockpiling mobile QB's and basically call the entire organization inept on a daily basis, but that really seems like a shitty way to go about the day.
I don't think fans accept losing as much as a great deal of them inflate their cognitive abilities to believe they are superior to those of people actually running things. It's one of the few constants among fanbases.
No. I'm getting at fans settling for mediocrity. This is usually demonstrated at excuse making.
If Dave Gettleman could go back in time, would he have signed Solder to the same contract? I would think no.
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You are happy with Solder's performance after being given elite-level pay? How far expectations for this team have fallen.
Like the Giants, many of the fans have grown very comfortable with losing.
I'm comfortable with them losing? Because i'm happy with Solder grading out as a top 20 tackle even after his poor start?
We knew day 1 we were getting above average play, not elite pay. I am ok with that overpay because it was spend on securing the blind side of the line. Again, with the holes this team has, complaining about Solder seems silly.
When we hired McAdoo vs. the Rams hired McVay, do either fan bases know what the end result will be? The Colts get spurned by McDaniels, settle for reich, look like shit to start the year, then go to the playoffs. What should the fans think there?
Wouldn't the definition of settling for mediocrity be congratulating Gettleman if he signed a UDFA at Tackle, instead of spending a lot of $$$??
If two or three years from now the OL and DL are solid, we have a dynamic offense and a capable D, and in part that run of success witll have begun this year with the work DG has done, how does history say we should view today?
Ripping every move made won't have made one damn difference, nor will it have been proven in the end to be correct.
One particular posters to this day rips Eli for not signing with the Chargers. Did the Giants settle for mediocrity, especially with the way 2004 played out? How the hell do we know the difference? we don't
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understood the complaint that fans accept losing. what are they supposed to do?
If everytime the team has a losing season, should wholesale changes be made - should fans scream to fire everyone? Because as pointed out before, doing that would've neutered Bill Parcells before he got started. Would have gotten a lot of coaches fired.
I mean it might be fucking awesome to complain about everything, espouse new ways to roster build by stockpiling mobile QB's and basically call the entire organization inept on a daily basis, but that really seems like a shitty way to go about the day.
I don't think fans accept losing as much as a great deal of them inflate their cognitive abilities to believe they are superior to those of people actually running things. It's one of the few constants among fanbases.
No. I'm getting at fans settling for mediocrity. This is usually demonstrated at excuse making.
If Dave Gettleman could go back in time, would he have signed Solder to the same contract? I would think no.
Except being happy with Solder is not settling for mediocrity, because he was not mediocre. He was above average. On the list of problems this team has, complaining about the above average tackle is stupid.
My recollection is that there was some confusion about what Solder meant when he referred to another big offer and the accurate interpretation was that it came from the Texans, not from the Patriots.
I am merely point out that at this point, signing Nate Solder to THAT contract was a mistake. Period.
Now, if Nate Solder rebounds in 2019 with an above average season as part of a refurbished offensive line, that perception may change.
Overall, Dave Gettleman's first draft looks pretty darn good. His first FA period looks dreadful. And his justification that it improved the locker room is not a strong argument. (Try finding good locker room guys who don't suck).
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understood the complaint that fans accept losing. what are they supposed to do?
If everytime the team has a losing season, should wholesale changes be made - should fans scream to fire everyone? Because as pointed out before, doing that would've neutered Bill Parcells before he got started. Would have gotten a lot of coaches fired.
I mean it might be fucking awesome to complain about everything, espouse new ways to roster build by stockpiling mobile QB's and basically call the entire organization inept on a daily basis, but that really seems like a shitty way to go about the day.
I don't think fans accept losing as much as a great deal of them inflate their cognitive abilities to believe they are superior to those of people actually running things. It's one of the few constants among fanbases.
No. I'm getting at fans settling for mediocrity. This is usually demonstrated at excuse making.
If Dave Gettleman could go back in time, would he have signed Solder to the same contract? I would think no.
Of course he wouldn't, but he couldn't have had Flowers start at LT last year.
After Norwell signed with the Jags (and had a worse year than Solder.) Solder was the only girl at the dance.
How do you not remember how much abuse David Diehl received from Giants fans everywhere?
Played through a neck stinger, got healthy, Eli finally stepped up more, he graded out as top 20 tackle. Its stupid to complain about him.
Diehl and Petitgout are glaring examples of that.
When it comes to the Tackle position, the Giants were in a lose-lose last year. And it was all a snowball effect of failing at OL signings and moves over the prior decade.
The way this season panned out, there isn't realistically any level of play where fans would've felt that solder was a good value, but had the season panned out the same and we had a Day 3 draft pick at Tackle or a UDFA, we're killing Gettleman there too. Under what scenario, given the 5-11 record is Gettleman going to get credit for the tackle position? Answer is - he isn't.
I'm aware of that, Eric. Look at the Snacks, Jenkins and Vernon contracts as proof.
However, there's no way this new front office could have given Ereck Flowers the spot at left tackle. No way.
I'm very much aware of paying average players all pro contracts isn't a sound business model but in this specific case, it had to be done.
How was he going to sell that to the fans? Especially after Flowers quit and refused to play the last game of the season in 2017 AND apparently trying to trade him for a ham sandwich during the draft.
Solder is a good, solid player being paid like an all pro. I'm hoping that the emergence of Hernandez next to him makes a big difference next season. He played very well down the stretch.
It is stupid. I haven't heard one rebuttal here to the fact he had a bad neck and his pass pro style pushes people past the QB (this doesn't work when the interior stinks and Eli can't step up).
He is an above average left tackle (you can keep arguing it but you have yet to post anything disputing this)
If you're not willing to admit the inconsistent play came when he was hurt and the line sucked, yeah its a stupid take.
I go by what I see. Solder wasn't a good football player in 2018. And he certainly wasn't even worth HALF the the money the Giants paid him.
Again - would anyone, in the face of a 5-11 season, call that a good move? Would it be a building block for the future? I'm struggling to find a scenario where credit would be given, especially knowing that DG rarely, if ever, has any positives said about him.
I go by what I see. Solder wasn't a good football player in 2018. And he certainly wasn't even worth HALF the the money the Giants paid him.
Ok. I go by what i see as well. I also happen to follow a couple of different guys who watch a lot of All-22 film, and they have all said since the bye week he played well.
Don't try to make this into a favoritism thing. I was just as pissed as everyone else when he was not performing in the first half of the year. When he got healthy and the interior line improved his play was MUCH better.
You are alot more plugged in than I am Eric, I feel like that's something your or JonC would have known and possibly shared on this board.
Who was a fading veteran out there to be had? Kelvim Beachum? Russell Okung who the Giants passed up a few years prior due to medical concerns?
I never realized this but man are you right.
The list after Nate Solder at LT in terms of Free Agents were Donald Stephenson (retired before the year started), Sam Young (backup LT for the Dolphins), Chris Clark and Greg Robinson. If you wanted to get Eli killed, we could have signed one of those guys. I'd rather go with Solder, who will be the starter for the next 3 years and ranked as above average at LT per PFF.
We are skewering the guy for 8 bad games in his first season in a new system, w/ a rookie LG, playing through a neck stinger, and blocking for a new QB for the first time in 7 years. These are the quick-to-judge, knee-jerk reactions that I hate in Giant fans.
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That assumes the only other option was Flowers. Perhaps it would have been wiser to sign a below-average, fading veteran to a 1-year deal?
The list after Nate Solder at LT in terms of Free Agents were Donald Stephenson (retired before the year started), Sam Young (backup LT for the Dolphins), Chris Clark and Greg Robinson. If you wanted to get Eli killed, we could have signed one of those guys. I'd rather go with Solder, who will be the starter for the next 3 years and ranked as above average at LT per PFF.
We are skewering the guy for 8 bad games in his first season in a new system, w/ a rookie LG, playing through a neck stinger, and blocking for a new QB for the first time in 7 years. These are the quick-to-judge, knee-jerk reactions that I hate in Giant fans.
^^ is he "settling for mediocrity" or just being rational? I'll take the latter.
That's not to say he wasn't a poor signing relative to the dollars. But, it would seem clear DG felt Solder was the best available option.
The line would have looked a lot worse without him though. Someone had to be added, somehow. And here's the thing about free agents - we only ever know who the team has signed. We generally only ever know the end result. We rarely never know who else they've spoken with and tried to sign, and which free agents just didn't want to come here.
They also tried to sign Sullivan from the Rams to play Center - who would have been an excellent addition and an A+ signing but he decided to stay in LA.
So in this case, the end result was Solder. Yeah he's overpaid, but despite the early season struggles, he helped stabilize the line. I don't really care about money if the guy stays on the field and plays well.
As for FMiC's and UConn's questions about what the fans are supposed to do...how about stop making excuses for incompetence, to start? How about holding Mara, Gettleman, and Shurmur accountable for the dreadful jobs they each did in 2018?
I say this, knowing that whoever grades and ranks the players won't account for that fact. Thus, banging the head against the wall continues.
As for holding them all accountable, how does one do that? Should I write them a strongly worded letter?
First off, how the fuck do fans hold anyone accountable, especially seeing most know even know what the fuck they are looking at? Do I hold the key to Gettleman's job?
Secondly, if people are going to be critical, shouldn't it be expected that people also point out what was done well?
You directly said many times that Gettleman and Shurmur should've been fired. Beat that drum daily. Isn't that just as irrational as if somebody glorified their moves? And by the way- try to find a poster that glorifies their moves. You won't the best you'll find is supposed "excuse making".
I'm sorry we didn't employ the strategy of stockpiling a stable of mobile QB's. But I'm sure the giants, nor any other team is sorry they didn't or haven't.
It's hard to hear about incompetence when the poster saying it espouses never giving players a second contract and thinks having 3-4 cheap QB's on the roster is the key to success.
As for holding them all accountable, how does one do that? Should I write them a strongly worded letter?
You're on a fan message board we know gets viewed by people close to the team. We know reporters come on the site, and we know Pat Hanlon's visited the site.
You aren't stupid...call it like you see it. If you aren't happy, say so. The team is shit and the people running it are doing poor work. I don't think pretending otherwise in any forum helps the discourse here or sends a good message to the team.
If there were more that I could do than complain here, I would. If I had season tickets I would have sold my seats to Cowboys fans for the last game.
These guys thought they'd compete in 2018, and we saw how far off they were in their assessment of the team and of their own ability. Then the message changed to "hey Reese and McAdoo sucked and we're cleaning up their mess...remember this was about the culture and moving on from 3-13."
To come out of the preseason looking like an unmade bed and then try to punt that onto the previous regime was absolutely pathetic. I'm disappointed in Mara for being OK with that.
That said I have scaled back on everything due to my general disgust with the NFL for a number of reasons. I don't make time for games anymore and cancelled my Red Zone subscription last year and won't ever renew it. I doubt the NFL cares, but that's a few shekels they will never get back from me.
Could it be, he doesn't suck, was definitely an overpay, but still a solid signing moving forward based on his overall body of work and how he bounced back in the 2nd half of the season?
I struggle to find a guy as accomplished as him take so much immediate criticism, even from Day 1 and the way he was hired.
There are a few posters here who have literally not given him one positive comment. The guy can draft the best player in the draft and still be called a old buffoon and most people don't even see the issue in that.
Using the rationale here, Terps would've called for Parcells to be fired in '83 and probably would've used the Brunner example as irrefutable evidence why.
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I directly answered Eric's question saying that DG likely wouldn't sign Solder if he can go back, unless they had a couple more wins. That isn't an excuse, that's my opinion.
As for holding them all accountable, how does one do that? Should I write them a strongly worded letter?
You're on a fan message board we know gets viewed by people close to the team. We know reporters come on the site, and we know Pat Hanlon's visited the site.
You aren't stupid...call it like you see it. If you aren't happy, say so. The team is shit and the people running it are doing poor work. I don't think pretending otherwise in any forum helps the discourse here or sends a good message to the team.
If there were more that I could do than complain here, I would. If I had season tickets I would have sold my seats to Cowboys fans for the last game.
Do you really fucking believe they are going to switch their thought process based on what they read here? You want the people in charge of the Giants to make decisions based of fans opinions? That is beyond moronic.
These guys thought they'd compete in 2018, and we saw how far off they were in their assessment of the team and of their own ability. Then the message changed to "hey Reese and McAdoo sucked and we're cleaning up their mess...remember this was about the culture and moving on from 3-13."
To come out of the preseason looking like an unmade bed and then try to punt that onto the previous regime was absolutely pathetic. I'm disappointed in Mara for being OK with that.
This is why I take what Gettleman says with a grain of salt. He's a good salesman. But the answers to the FA questions were weak. Man up and simply say we've got to do a better job in free agency.
I keep hearing, "What choice did the Giants have?" There are always other options. The other options may not be pretty, but sometimes they are better for the long-term. We just had another losing season. And Nate Solder's contract sticks out like sore thumb. Meanwhile, you've got folks blaming Odell's contract for the Giants' salary cap woes. It's not Odell's contract that is the problem but contracts like the one the Giants gave Rhett Ellison (this was Reese, and he's an OK player but not worth the money), Nate Solder (Gettleman), Vernon Olivier (Reese), etc.
When you draft poorly, you overcompensate in FA and it causes long-term issues. I still find is startling that this is somehow a controversial point of view.
I struggle to find a guy as accomplished as him take so much immediate criticism, even from Day 1 and the way he was hired.
There are a few posters here who have literally not given him one positive comment. The guy can draft the best player in the draft and still be called a old buffoon and most people don't even see the issue in that.
Using the rationale here, Terps would've called for Parcells to be fired in '83 and probably would've used the Brunner example as irrefutable evidence why.
Exactly. Gettleman's hands were tied because of the abysmal drafts in the past. If he handcuffed the new coaching regime with garbage and malcontents in the locker room that is not how you solidify a foundation going forward. I highly doubt he gives out contracts so freely like he did this past offseason. This is a guy infamous around the league for not overpaying for talent and now he's some drunken sailor. Gotta give the guy a couple draft classes to build the team the way he sees fit.
I'll stick by what I said. He played well as the season went on. He was dreadful early on but didn't allow a sack through the last 6 games against some good defensive lines.
He was injured earlier in the season and also admitted that it took him some time to get comfortable so I'll give him a pass and expect he starts out 2019 the way he ended 2018.
Could it be, he doesn't suck, was definitely an overpay, but still a solid signing moving forward based on his overall body of work and how he bounced back in the 2nd half of the season?
Complaining about the offensive line the last 8 years and still not being happy we picked up an above average left tackle makes no sense and while posters here will say that is not what they saw, i'll trust the opinion of those who watch each game multiple times.
Go Terps : 3:24 pm : link : reply
It's hard for me to see a strategy we employed beyond, "Let's make one more run with Eli."
If you took that to be the strategy even though we turned over nearly 70% of the roster and exactly 50% of the starters and traded away JPP. I don't know what to say.
To me the strategy was to try and fill the team with better players and fill gaps where they've been poor, especially at LB and OL. They failed on Onameah, did OK with Ogletree and Solder.
There's not a lot of evidence they planned to make one last run with Eli other than they didn't draft a QB, but seeing Barkley, is that really still the question??
The issue is, you feel very confident that a guy overhauled the roster, picked a RB and gave money to the OL and LB just to placate the owner and fans and make a run with Eli? It doesn't compute.
Disappointment has caused a lot if irrational thinking.
Did he come here and read the comments? Was that the right move?
He's not above average. He's as average as average can be in every way.....other than salary. He's way above average there.
Greg from LI : 3:31 pm : link : reply
He had one team go to the Super Bowl largely on the backs of players who were already on the team when he was hired.
As executive
2× Super Bowl champion (XLII, XLVI)
4× NFC Champion (2000, 2007, 2011, 2015)
As administrator
5× AFC Champion (1990, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1997)
Super Bowl champion (XXXII)
All by luck, I'm sure.
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still not being happy we picked up an above average left tackle
He's not above average. He's as average as average can be in every way.....other than salary. He's way above average there.
His overall track record and his play after the bye say otherwise. If he was as bad as everyone here says he is, i don't see how he would have ranked as PFF's 21st overall tackle.
But when Eli was benched, Mara and Reese hid for a day or two.
Then the shitstorm hit and Mara told McAdoo to start Eli again.
That reaction was completely based on fan reaction to the benching.
But I still contend fans were more pissed with (1) the way Eli was benched, and (2) the fact they went with the Jets reject instead of the draft pick. I also contend that at that point, it would have been better to still go with the draft pick. Wasted opportunity in a wasted season.
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As accomplished as him?
Greg from LI : 3:31 pm : link : reply
He had one team go to the Super Bowl largely on the backs of players who were already on the team when he was hired.
As executive
2× Super Bowl champion (XLII, XLVI)
4× NFC Champion (2000, 2007, 2011, 2015)
As administrator
5× AFC Champion (1990, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1997)
Super Bowl champion (XXXII)
All by luck, I'm sure.
When they rebuttal with his misses on Omameh and Stewart, please list all of his signings as a pro personnel guy.
New York Giants 2018 Free Agency Scorecard - ( New Window )
But you'll be hard pressed to find guys with similar success in so many places.
The amount of shit he takes here is absurd, especially seeing that the majority of moves he made or wanted to make in Carolina turned out to be pretty good, including the idea he "reached" for McCaffery or wanted to look at ways to unload Davis and Olsen.
Do you really fucking believe they are going to switch their thought process based on what they read here? You want the people in charge of the Giants to make decisions based of fans opinions? That is beyond moronic.
It's not. In fact, it couldn't be more accurate.
The actions - well, reactions - of Mara when the Eli benching occurred was 100% driven by the media & fan revolt. He needed to stop the rioters, so he gave the rioters what they wanted - two heads: Reese and McAdoo. And that appeased the rioters and bought Mara time, and allowed him to deftly direct the blame away from him onto Reese and McAdoo.
It's worked like a charm...
But when Eli was benched, Mara and Reese hid for a day or two.
Then the shitstorm hit and Mara told McAdoo to start Eli again.
That reaction was completely based on fan reaction to the benching.
But I still contend fans were more pissed with (1) the way Eli was benched, and (2) the fact they went with the Jets reject instead of the draft pick. I also contend that at that point, it would have been better to still go with the draft pick. Wasted opportunity in a wasted season.
This 100 percent. The ironic part is McAdoo was trying to prove a point about Eli to save his job. If he had played Webb there is a decent chance he is still coaching here.
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Giants officials tell me all of the time they read this site. Does it impact their decision making on a regular basis? Hell no.
But when Eli was benched, Mara and Reese hid for a day or two.
Then the shitstorm hit and Mara told McAdoo to start Eli again.
That reaction was completely based on fan reaction to the benching.
But I still contend fans were more pissed with (1) the way Eli was benched, and (2) the fact they went with the Jets reject instead of the draft pick. I also contend that at that point, it would have been better to still go with the draft pick. Wasted opportunity in a wasted season.
This 100 percent. The ironic part is McAdoo was trying to prove a point about Eli to save his job. If he had played Webb there is a decent chance he is still coaching here.
The team had quit on McAdoo, opponents were calling out their plays pre-snap based on formation (habit), he'd lost the locker room very quickly.
Reese was an integral part of our SB success. The 2007 draft was excellent. Unfortunately, the drafts that followed were absurdly poor.
McAdoo led one of the worst seasons in recent history, with player revolts, benchings and complete chaos.
Both guys were getting fired. the Eli situation just accelerated it from the end of teh year to during the year.
No one here is saying he nailed free agency. But when people like yourself keep harping on it, it makes no sense.
Are the Stewart and Omameh contracts killing them for years to come?
Dave Gettleman's track record is anything but average. FMiC and myself have posted his credentials many times. If you want to focus on the fact signing Jonathan Stewart was a mistake, go ahead. The reality is, that mistake isn't going to kill the team moving forward.
Fan reaction did clearly have a say in Eli being put back in when he was benched. I don't think anyone can argue that. Was that the right move? Debatable. I don't want to get into that situation on here because my opinion is going to piss a lot of people off.
He had virtually nothing along the OL.
They were also switching from a 4-3 to a 3-4 scheme under a new coordinator.
When you consider you need roster depth during OTAs and training camp as well as guys to help a new coordinator implement his system and then realize that you have limited resources between the salary cap and the draft, you're going to get signings like Martin and Mauro. You're going to overpay to bring in the stability of a guy like Solder and take a chance on Omameh.
Obviously, not all of these plans worked out, but that's actually where I think Gettleman deserves the credit to cut his losses and keep trying.
There's not a lot of evidence they planned to make one last run with Eli other than they didn't draft a QB, but seeing Barkley, is that really still the question??
Speaking of irrational thinking, this is it.
I forget the poster, but he came up with a host of great quotes by Gettleman or Mara or both this past summer where it was abundantly clear that they thought they built this team in the off-season to compete IMMEDIATELY.
It made me laugh out loud, but it just re-affirmed my thought all along - let's get it done for Eli.
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what Gettleman did in free agency last year... New York Giants 2018 Free Agency Scorecard - ( New Window )
No one here is saying he nailed free agency. But when people like yourself keep harping on it, it makes no sense.
Are the Stewart and Omameh contracts killing them for years to come?
Dave Gettleman's track record is anything but average. FMiC and myself have posted his credentials many times. If you want to focus on the fact signing Jonathan Stewart was a mistake, go ahead. The reality is, that mistake isn't going to kill the team moving forward.
Fan reaction did clearly have a say in Eli being put back in when he was benched. I don't think anyone can argue that. Was that the right move? Debatable. I don't want to get into that situation on here because my opinion is going to piss a lot of people off.
I'm not sure I understand where you are coming from.
The original point of this post was to link to an article that identified the best/worst free agent moves. Solder was identified as one of the worst FA moves. You don't agree but others on this thread do agree. However, you seem to have an issue with those who disagree with you... calling the debate "stupid."
I said above (and I've said numerous times), Gettleman did well in the draft and poorly in free agency. I think he would like to have a do-over on his free agency period if he could.
I'm not anti-Gettleman at all. I am merely point out the positives and the negatives.
He had virtually nothing along the OL.
They were also switching from a 4-3 to a 3-4 scheme under a new coordinator.
When you consider you need roster depth during OTAs and training camp as well as guys to help a new coordinator implement his system and then realize that you have limited resources between the salary cap and the draft, you're going to get signings like Martin and Mauro. You're going to overpay to bring in the stability of a guy like Solder and take a chance on Omameh.
Obviously, not all of these plans worked out, but that's actually where I think Gettleman deserves the credit to cut his losses and keep trying.
I like his ability to recognize mistakes, i also understand when people point out that ability will be useless if he does in fact make too many mistakes.
I'm tired of reading about Omameh's deal on here. There is a reason they were able to get out of that contract during the year.
(You can also replace "Giants" with "Eli" or "Odell" or other specific players, coaches, or front office types).
The truth usually isn't so black and white. It's completely fair game to criticize or praise members of the team on a fan-based bulletin board. And doing so doesn't make you a "troll" or "homer".
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In comment 14264531 Eric from BBI said:
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what Gettleman did in free agency last year... New York Giants 2018 Free Agency Scorecard - ( New Window )
No one here is saying he nailed free agency. But when people like yourself keep harping on it, it makes no sense.
Are the Stewart and Omameh contracts killing them for years to come?
Dave Gettleman's track record is anything but average. FMiC and myself have posted his credentials many times. If you want to focus on the fact signing Jonathan Stewart was a mistake, go ahead. The reality is, that mistake isn't going to kill the team moving forward.
Fan reaction did clearly have a say in Eli being put back in when he was benched. I don't think anyone can argue that. Was that the right move? Debatable. I don't want to get into that situation on here because my opinion is going to piss a lot of people off.
I'm not sure I understand where you are coming from.
The original point of this post was to link to an article that identified the best/worst free agent moves. Solder was identified as one of the worst FA moves. You don't agree but others on this thread do agree. However, you seem to have an issue with those who disagree with you... calling the debate "stupid."
I said above (and I've said numerous times), Gettleman did well in the draft and poorly in free agency. I think he would like to have a do-over on his free agency period if he could.
I'm not anti-Gettleman at all. I am merely point out the positives and the negatives.
If second half of the year Solder is the player we get consistently, i'm sorry but it is stupid to complain about an above average tackle. I'm not sitting here and just going off the top of my head. I am reiterating the opinion of many who watch the film - a lot.
You do understand where i am coming from, you disagree.
(You can also replace "Giants" with "Eli" or "Odell" or other specific players, coaches, or front office types).
The truth usually isn't so black and white. It's completely fair game to criticize or praise members of the team on a fan-based bulletin board. And doing so doesn't make you a "troll" or "homer".
Its also completely fair to call out the same regurgitated criticism. Its fair to call out people who write comments that state we should fire the GM and HC after one year. Its pretty obvious people are not happy with the state of the Giants and will not be until they win, i get that. But when threads are littered with the same negative takes that are simple and don't include facts, its annoying.
(You can also replace "Giants" with "Eli" or "Odell" or other specific players, coaches, or front office types).
The truth usually isn't so black and white. It's completely fair game to criticize or praise members of the team on a fan-based bulletin board. And doing so doesn't make you a "troll" or "homer".
That's fair, but there remains one incontrovertible fact: the team was putrid in 2018 by every objective measure.
(You can also replace "Giants" with "Eli" or "Odell" or other specific players, coaches, or front office types).
The truth usually isn't so black and white. It's completely fair game to criticize or praise members of the team on a fan-based bulletin board. And doing so doesn't make you a "troll" or "homer".
Eric - You're posting a lot today. Are you one of the furloughed? ;)
Put another way, you shouldn't judge long-term investments on 1 year. (Although you still should use the results from 1 year to update your thinking.)
(You can also replace "Giants" with "Eli" or "Odell" or other specific players, coaches, or front office types).
The truth usually isn't so black and white. It's completely fair game to criticize or praise members of the team on a fan-based bulletin board. And doing so doesn't make you a "troll" or "homer".
You got it wrong Eric. It’s not that people are irritated if the Giants are criticized. What we are tired of is the same usual clowns, with the same agenda, and the same one note message who who have become caricatures and nothing new to say. They suck any joy out of football and of being a Giants fan. It’s why so many long time posters don’t bother anymore.
(You can also replace "Giants" with "Eli" or "Odell" or other specific players, coaches, or front office types).
The truth usually isn't so black and white. It's completely fair game to criticize or praise members of the team on a fan-based bulletin board. And doing so doesn't make you a "troll" or "homer".
Agree.
And btw its also okay if any poster(s) want to predominately (or solely) criticize or praise on the site. It probably exposes you somewhat for others to question your motives, but like anything else...that's your prerogative.
Unfortunately the questioning of motives seems to have also run rampant here on BBI as the team has deteriorated, but that's others' prerogative as well.
But it does indeed create shitty threads as we go 'round in circles...
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There seems to be vocal minorities who get irritated if (1) the Giants are criticized or (2) the team is praised.
(You can also replace "Giants" with "Eli" or "Odell" or other specific players, coaches, or front office types).
The truth usually isn't so black and white. It's completely fair game to criticize or praise members of the team on a fan-based bulletin board. And doing so doesn't make you a "troll" or "homer".
You got it wrong Eric. It’s not that people are irritated if the Giants are criticized. What we are tired of is the same usual clowns, with the same agenda, and the same one note message who who have become caricatures and nothing new to say. They suck any joy out of football and of being a Giants fan. It’s why so many long time posters don’t bother anymore.
I misunderstood what you were saying Eric, but I stand by my point. Things are getting tiresome
I actually don't have an answer to what I would have done differently than DG did with respect to this Solder signing...other than to say I wouldn't have done this for certain. Paying top dollar to a very average LT to come onto a declining team with a declining QB makes no inherent sense to me.
And in my book, you don't get kudos by using up the salary cap each year not by shedding your mistakes quickly once you have a change of mind.
Imv, DG made some bad "big-time" moves, some bad "little" moves and also had some good moves too. Unfortunately he inherited a team that needs far more of the latter...
It's unreal he really thought the Giants team would be good in 2018.
SO most everyone on the planet thought Gmen were going to NOT be a playoff team and yet "we had to sign Solder" for that insane contract as someone implies "well what the fans have thought?"
It's just unreal the excuses made for some of these Giants fans.
DG was going after Norwell -- yet you hear some say "well we needed to get soldier."
The idiocy of that logic. Further when you are expected to stink you don;t go and get an older type player who was never that great and make him #1 paid in the NFL.
The fact that some Giants fans see the logic in that is just mind-boggling and scary.