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| 3. Nate Solder, OT, New York Giants Deal: Four years, $62 million Sick of disappointing 2015 first-round pick Ereck Flowers, who never developed into the franchise left tackle the Giants expected him to be when they picked him No. 9 overall, the Giants won a bidding war for the 30-year-old Solder. It cost them a $62 million contract with $34.8 million in full guarantees. At the time, it made Solder the highest-paid tackle in NFL history. Only nine NFL teams allowed more sacks than the Giants did in 2018. |
If everytime the team has a losing season, should wholesale changes be made - should fans scream to fire everyone? Because as pointed out before, doing that would've neutered Bill Parcells before he got started. Would have gotten a lot of coaches fired.
I mean it might be fucking awesome to complain about everything, espouse new ways to roster build by stockpiling mobile QB's and basically call the entire organization inept on a daily basis, but that really seems like a shitty way to go about the day.
I don't think fans accept losing as much as a great deal of them inflate their cognitive abilities to believe they are superior to those of people actually running things. It's one of the few constants among fanbases.
No. I'm getting at fans settling for mediocrity. This is usually demonstrated at excuse making.
If Dave Gettleman could go back in time, would he have signed Solder to the same contract? I would think no.
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You are happy with Solder's performance after being given elite-level pay? How far expectations for this team have fallen.
Like the Giants, many of the fans have grown very comfortable with losing.
I'm comfortable with them losing? Because i'm happy with Solder grading out as a top 20 tackle even after his poor start?
We knew day 1 we were getting above average play, not elite pay. I am ok with that overpay because it was spend on securing the blind side of the line. Again, with the holes this team has, complaining about Solder seems silly.
When we hired McAdoo vs. the Rams hired McVay, do either fan bases know what the end result will be? The Colts get spurned by McDaniels, settle for reich, look like shit to start the year, then go to the playoffs. What should the fans think there?
Wouldn't the definition of settling for mediocrity be congratulating Gettleman if he signed a UDFA at Tackle, instead of spending a lot of $$$??
If two or three years from now the OL and DL are solid, we have a dynamic offense and a capable D, and in part that run of success witll have begun this year with the work DG has done, how does history say we should view today?
Ripping every move made won't have made one damn difference, nor will it have been proven in the end to be correct.
One particular posters to this day rips Eli for not signing with the Chargers. Did the Giants settle for mediocrity, especially with the way 2004 played out? How the hell do we know the difference? we don't
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understood the complaint that fans accept losing. what are they supposed to do?
If everytime the team has a losing season, should wholesale changes be made - should fans scream to fire everyone? Because as pointed out before, doing that would've neutered Bill Parcells before he got started. Would have gotten a lot of coaches fired.
I mean it might be fucking awesome to complain about everything, espouse new ways to roster build by stockpiling mobile QB's and basically call the entire organization inept on a daily basis, but that really seems like a shitty way to go about the day.
I don't think fans accept losing as much as a great deal of them inflate their cognitive abilities to believe they are superior to those of people actually running things. It's one of the few constants among fanbases.
No. I'm getting at fans settling for mediocrity. This is usually demonstrated at excuse making.
If Dave Gettleman could go back in time, would he have signed Solder to the same contract? I would think no.
Except being happy with Solder is not settling for mediocrity, because he was not mediocre. He was above average. On the list of problems this team has, complaining about the above average tackle is stupid.
My recollection is that there was some confusion about what Solder meant when he referred to another big offer and the accurate interpretation was that it came from the Texans, not from the Patriots.
I am merely point out that at this point, signing Nate Solder to THAT contract was a mistake. Period.
Now, if Nate Solder rebounds in 2019 with an above average season as part of a refurbished offensive line, that perception may change.
Overall, Dave Gettleman's first draft looks pretty darn good. His first FA period looks dreadful. And his justification that it improved the locker room is not a strong argument. (Try finding good locker room guys who don't suck).
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understood the complaint that fans accept losing. what are they supposed to do?
If everytime the team has a losing season, should wholesale changes be made - should fans scream to fire everyone? Because as pointed out before, doing that would've neutered Bill Parcells before he got started. Would have gotten a lot of coaches fired.
I mean it might be fucking awesome to complain about everything, espouse new ways to roster build by stockpiling mobile QB's and basically call the entire organization inept on a daily basis, but that really seems like a shitty way to go about the day.
I don't think fans accept losing as much as a great deal of them inflate their cognitive abilities to believe they are superior to those of people actually running things. It's one of the few constants among fanbases.
No. I'm getting at fans settling for mediocrity. This is usually demonstrated at excuse making.
If Dave Gettleman could go back in time, would he have signed Solder to the same contract? I would think no.
Of course he wouldn't, but he couldn't have had Flowers start at LT last year.
After Norwell signed with the Jags (and had a worse year than Solder.) Solder was the only girl at the dance.
How do you not remember how much abuse David Diehl received from Giants fans everywhere?
Played through a neck stinger, got healthy, Eli finally stepped up more, he graded out as top 20 tackle. Its stupid to complain about him.
Diehl and Petitgout are glaring examples of that.
When it comes to the Tackle position, the Giants were in a lose-lose last year. And it was all a snowball effect of failing at OL signings and moves over the prior decade.
The way this season panned out, there isn't realistically any level of play where fans would've felt that solder was a good value, but had the season panned out the same and we had a Day 3 draft pick at Tackle or a UDFA, we're killing Gettleman there too. Under what scenario, given the 5-11 record is Gettleman going to get credit for the tackle position? Answer is - he isn't.
I'm aware of that, Eric. Look at the Snacks, Jenkins and Vernon contracts as proof.
However, there's no way this new front office could have given Ereck Flowers the spot at left tackle. No way.
I'm very much aware of paying average players all pro contracts isn't a sound business model but in this specific case, it had to be done.
How was he going to sell that to the fans? Especially after Flowers quit and refused to play the last game of the season in 2017 AND apparently trying to trade him for a ham sandwich during the draft.
Solder is a good, solid player being paid like an all pro. I'm hoping that the emergence of Hernandez next to him makes a big difference next season. He played very well down the stretch.
It is stupid. I haven't heard one rebuttal here to the fact he had a bad neck and his pass pro style pushes people past the QB (this doesn't work when the interior stinks and Eli can't step up).
He is an above average left tackle (you can keep arguing it but you have yet to post anything disputing this)
If you're not willing to admit the inconsistent play came when he was hurt and the line sucked, yeah its a stupid take.
I go by what I see. Solder wasn't a good football player in 2018. And he certainly wasn't even worth HALF the the money the Giants paid him.
Again - would anyone, in the face of a 5-11 season, call that a good move? Would it be a building block for the future? I'm struggling to find a scenario where credit would be given, especially knowing that DG rarely, if ever, has any positives said about him.
I go by what I see. Solder wasn't a good football player in 2018. And he certainly wasn't even worth HALF the the money the Giants paid him.
Ok. I go by what i see as well. I also happen to follow a couple of different guys who watch a lot of All-22 film, and they have all said since the bye week he played well.
Don't try to make this into a favoritism thing. I was just as pissed as everyone else when he was not performing in the first half of the year. When he got healthy and the interior line improved his play was MUCH better.
You are alot more plugged in than I am Eric, I feel like that's something your or JonC would have known and possibly shared on this board.
Who was a fading veteran out there to be had? Kelvim Beachum? Russell Okung who the Giants passed up a few years prior due to medical concerns?
I never realized this but man are you right.
The list after Nate Solder at LT in terms of Free Agents were Donald Stephenson (retired before the year started), Sam Young (backup LT for the Dolphins), Chris Clark and Greg Robinson. If you wanted to get Eli killed, we could have signed one of those guys. I'd rather go with Solder, who will be the starter for the next 3 years and ranked as above average at LT per PFF.
We are skewering the guy for 8 bad games in his first season in a new system, w/ a rookie LG, playing through a neck stinger, and blocking for a new QB for the first time in 7 years. These are the quick-to-judge, knee-jerk reactions that I hate in Giant fans.
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That assumes the only other option was Flowers. Perhaps it would have been wiser to sign a below-average, fading veteran to a 1-year deal?
The list after Nate Solder at LT in terms of Free Agents were Donald Stephenson (retired before the year started), Sam Young (backup LT for the Dolphins), Chris Clark and Greg Robinson. If you wanted to get Eli killed, we could have signed one of those guys. I'd rather go with Solder, who will be the starter for the next 3 years and ranked as above average at LT per PFF.
We are skewering the guy for 8 bad games in his first season in a new system, w/ a rookie LG, playing through a neck stinger, and blocking for a new QB for the first time in 7 years. These are the quick-to-judge, knee-jerk reactions that I hate in Giant fans.
^^ is he "settling for mediocrity" or just being rational? I'll take the latter.
That's not to say he wasn't a poor signing relative to the dollars. But, it would seem clear DG felt Solder was the best available option.
The line would have looked a lot worse without him though. Someone had to be added, somehow. And here's the thing about free agents - we only ever know who the team has signed. We generally only ever know the end result. We rarely never know who else they've spoken with and tried to sign, and which free agents just didn't want to come here.
They also tried to sign Sullivan from the Rams to play Center - who would have been an excellent addition and an A+ signing but he decided to stay in LA.
So in this case, the end result was Solder. Yeah he's overpaid, but despite the early season struggles, he helped stabilize the line. I don't really care about money if the guy stays on the field and plays well.
As for FMiC's and UConn's questions about what the fans are supposed to do...how about stop making excuses for incompetence, to start? How about holding Mara, Gettleman, and Shurmur accountable for the dreadful jobs they each did in 2018?
I say this, knowing that whoever grades and ranks the players won't account for that fact. Thus, banging the head against the wall continues.
As for holding them all accountable, how does one do that? Should I write them a strongly worded letter?
First off, how the fuck do fans hold anyone accountable, especially seeing most know even know what the fuck they are looking at? Do I hold the key to Gettleman's job?
Secondly, if people are going to be critical, shouldn't it be expected that people also point out what was done well?
You directly said many times that Gettleman and Shurmur should've been fired. Beat that drum daily. Isn't that just as irrational as if somebody glorified their moves? And by the way- try to find a poster that glorifies their moves. You won't the best you'll find is supposed "excuse making".
I'm sorry we didn't employ the strategy of stockpiling a stable of mobile QB's. But I'm sure the giants, nor any other team is sorry they didn't or haven't.
It's hard to hear about incompetence when the poster saying it espouses never giving players a second contract and thinks having 3-4 cheap QB's on the roster is the key to success.
As for holding them all accountable, how does one do that? Should I write them a strongly worded letter?
You're on a fan message board we know gets viewed by people close to the team. We know reporters come on the site, and we know Pat Hanlon's visited the site.
You aren't stupid...call it like you see it. If you aren't happy, say so. The team is shit and the people running it are doing poor work. I don't think pretending otherwise in any forum helps the discourse here or sends a good message to the team.
If there were more that I could do than complain here, I would. If I had season tickets I would have sold my seats to Cowboys fans for the last game.
These guys thought they'd compete in 2018, and we saw how far off they were in their assessment of the team and of their own ability. Then the message changed to "hey Reese and McAdoo sucked and we're cleaning up their mess...remember this was about the culture and moving on from 3-13."
To come out of the preseason looking like an unmade bed and then try to punt that onto the previous regime was absolutely pathetic. I'm disappointed in Mara for being OK with that.
That said I have scaled back on everything due to my general disgust with the NFL for a number of reasons. I don't make time for games anymore and cancelled my Red Zone subscription last year and won't ever renew it. I doubt the NFL cares, but that's a few shekels they will never get back from me.
Could it be, he doesn't suck, was definitely an overpay, but still a solid signing moving forward based on his overall body of work and how he bounced back in the 2nd half of the season?
I struggle to find a guy as accomplished as him take so much immediate criticism, even from Day 1 and the way he was hired.
There are a few posters here who have literally not given him one positive comment. The guy can draft the best player in the draft and still be called a old buffoon and most people don't even see the issue in that.
Using the rationale here, Terps would've called for Parcells to be fired in '83 and probably would've used the Brunner example as irrefutable evidence why.
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I directly answered Eric's question saying that DG likely wouldn't sign Solder if he can go back, unless they had a couple more wins. That isn't an excuse, that's my opinion.
As for holding them all accountable, how does one do that? Should I write them a strongly worded letter?
You're on a fan message board we know gets viewed by people close to the team. We know reporters come on the site, and we know Pat Hanlon's visited the site.
You aren't stupid...call it like you see it. If you aren't happy, say so. The team is shit and the people running it are doing poor work. I don't think pretending otherwise in any forum helps the discourse here or sends a good message to the team.
If there were more that I could do than complain here, I would. If I had season tickets I would have sold my seats to Cowboys fans for the last game.
Do you really fucking believe they are going to switch their thought process based on what they read here? You want the people in charge of the Giants to make decisions based of fans opinions? That is beyond moronic.
These guys thought they'd compete in 2018, and we saw how far off they were in their assessment of the team and of their own ability. Then the message changed to "hey Reese and McAdoo sucked and we're cleaning up their mess...remember this was about the culture and moving on from 3-13."
To come out of the preseason looking like an unmade bed and then try to punt that onto the previous regime was absolutely pathetic. I'm disappointed in Mara for being OK with that.
This is why I take what Gettleman says with a grain of salt. He's a good salesman. But the answers to the FA questions were weak. Man up and simply say we've got to do a better job in free agency.
I keep hearing, "What choice did the Giants have?" There are always other options. The other options may not be pretty, but sometimes they are better for the long-term. We just had another losing season. And Nate Solder's contract sticks out like sore thumb. Meanwhile, you've got folks blaming Odell's contract for the Giants' salary cap woes. It's not Odell's contract that is the problem but contracts like the one the Giants gave Rhett Ellison (this was Reese, and he's an OK player but not worth the money), Nate Solder (Gettleman), Vernon Olivier (Reese), etc.
When you draft poorly, you overcompensate in FA and it causes long-term issues. I still find is startling that this is somehow a controversial point of view.
I struggle to find a guy as accomplished as him take so much immediate criticism, even from Day 1 and the way he was hired.
There are a few posters here who have literally not given him one positive comment. The guy can draft the best player in the draft and still be called a old buffoon and most people don't even see the issue in that.
Using the rationale here, Terps would've called for Parcells to be fired in '83 and probably would've used the Brunner example as irrefutable evidence why.
Exactly. Gettleman's hands were tied because of the abysmal drafts in the past. If he handcuffed the new coaching regime with garbage and malcontents in the locker room that is not how you solidify a foundation going forward. I highly doubt he gives out contracts so freely like he did this past offseason. This is a guy infamous around the league for not overpaying for talent and now he's some drunken sailor. Gotta give the guy a couple draft classes to build the team the way he sees fit.
I'll stick by what I said. He played well as the season went on. He was dreadful early on but didn't allow a sack through the last 6 games against some good defensive lines.
He was injured earlier in the season and also admitted that it took him some time to get comfortable so I'll give him a pass and expect he starts out 2019 the way he ended 2018.
Could it be, he doesn't suck, was definitely an overpay, but still a solid signing moving forward based on his overall body of work and how he bounced back in the 2nd half of the season?
Complaining about the offensive line the last 8 years and still not being happy we picked up an above average left tackle makes no sense and while posters here will say that is not what they saw, i'll trust the opinion of those who watch each game multiple times.
Go Terps : 3:24 pm : link : reply
It's hard for me to see a strategy we employed beyond, "Let's make one more run with Eli."
If you took that to be the strategy even though we turned over nearly 70% of the roster and exactly 50% of the starters and traded away JPP. I don't know what to say.
To me the strategy was to try and fill the team with better players and fill gaps where they've been poor, especially at LB and OL. They failed on Onameah, did OK with Ogletree and Solder.
There's not a lot of evidence they planned to make one last run with Eli other than they didn't draft a QB, but seeing Barkley, is that really still the question??
The issue is, you feel very confident that a guy overhauled the roster, picked a RB and gave money to the OL and LB just to placate the owner and fans and make a run with Eli? It doesn't compute.
Disappointment has caused a lot if irrational thinking.
Did he come here and read the comments? Was that the right move?
He's not above average. He's as average as average can be in every way.....other than salary. He's way above average there.
Greg from LI : 3:31 pm : link : reply
He had one team go to the Super Bowl largely on the backs of players who were already on the team when he was hired.
As executive
2× Super Bowl champion (XLII, XLVI)
4× NFC Champion (2000, 2007, 2011, 2015)
As administrator
5× AFC Champion (1990, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1997)
Super Bowl champion (XXXII)
All by luck, I'm sure.
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still not being happy we picked up an above average left tackle
He's not above average. He's as average as average can be in every way.....other than salary. He's way above average there.
His overall track record and his play after the bye say otherwise. If he was as bad as everyone here says he is, i don't see how he would have ranked as PFF's 21st overall tackle.