Murray isn't a remote-thrower for me - don't get me wrong. I am just wary of his longevity and any time you have that question with a QB, it's a very risky proposition.
I really just like Haskins more and think he has more of what we should be looking for from an NFL QB.
Murray seems too gadgety for me. I can't shake the feeling that he'll be one of those guys who excites everyone early in his career and makes dazzling plays and has everyone talking about "revolutionizing" the QB position, etc, etc.. only for him to get hurt or for it to stop being effective in short order.
When I look at Haskins, I see a guy who has staying power in this league. Of course, anyone can get hurt - but Haskins can stand in the pocket and deliver. Murray isn't going to be able to play that way.
My guess is Murray is the guy who makes the early headlines, but Haskins is the guy who becomes the 10 year starter.
Is Haskins Mobile at all?
Yes. Nothing like Murray plays - but Haskins can pull the ball down and take off if he needs to. He got smarter with this as the year went on. He's a bigger guy and isn't super fast, but he's not totally stuck in mud.
Several instances where he had a collapsing pocket, found a lane, and took off for a first down.
His mobility is more like Andrew Lucks (without the early career recklessness) than Lamar Jackson's - but he can move when he needs to and will make a couple of plays with his legs.
Thats good to know, thanks. Anything like Romo mobile?
Romo was more... "slippery"
He had a sneaky elusiveness to him despite not being very fast or even quick. One of those guys you'd think you have dead to rights and he'd wiggle out of it somehow and buy time.
Haskins stands tall in the pocket and wants to throw the football, but when the pocket collapses, he has a pretty good feel and will either sense where the pocket is moving or get out of it and get what he can with his legs.
His instincts seemed to get better as the year went on as far as taking off and running.
I see some Mitch Trubisky in Haskins.
Flacco used to be able to do that pre knee surgery.
Trubisky isn't what the media make him out to be. Vegas didn't see a ton of drop off between Trubisky and Daniels. Pretty much tells you what you need to know.
Trubisky isn't what the media make him out to be. Vegas didn't see a ton of drop off between Trubisky and Daniels. Pretty much tells you what you need to know.
Trubisky, like Haskins, was only a 1 year starter. He's doing a lot of his learning in the NFL and got quite a bit better between year 1 and year 2.
Haskins hasn't taken an NFL snap yet. "Haskins is better than Trubisky" is not a provable point at this juncture, it's an opinion stated as a fact without any actual evidence or proof.
I'm obviously all aboard the Haskins train. But to say he's already better than a guy who just went 11-3 as a starter, led his team to a division title and made very large strides between his first and second seasons is a little too aggressive. Haskins has to actually take an NFL snap before we make proclamations like those.
Better prospect? I could level with that a little more - but still, Trubisky was a pretty sought-after prospect considering he was just a 1 year starter and it was for a smaller program.
Trubisky isn't what the media make him out to be. Vegas didn't see a ton of drop off between Trubisky and Daniels. Pretty much tells you what you need to know.
Trubisky, like Haskins, was only a 1 year starter. He's doing a lot of his learning in the NFL and got quite a bit better between year 1 and year 2.
Haskins hasn't taken an NFL snap yet. "Haskins is better than Trubisky" is not a provable point at this juncture, it's an opinion stated as a fact without any actual evidence or proof.
I'm obviously all aboard the Haskins train. But to say he's already better than a guy who just went 11-3 as a starter, led his team to a division title and made very large strides between his first and second seasons is a little too aggressive. Haskins has to actually take an NFL snap before we make proclamations like those.
Better prospect? I could level with that a little more - but still, Trubisky was a pretty sought-after prospect considering he was just a 1 year starter and it was for a smaller program.
and Vegas didn't make much of an adjustment between him and Chase Daniels. Really tells me all I need to know. Other than them being 1 year starters I don't see any similarity in their game. Haskins is way more accurate and less athletic. I think teams fell in love with Trubisky's arm and athleticism and thought hey he's a 1 year starter he's going to get better with some coaching. Trubisky's accuracy and decision making still isn't good.
For the record I don't think the one year starter thing
is really a factor in development that it used to be. The level of coaching and 7 on 7 stuff they are doing at the High School level its leaps and bounds what it was 20 years ago. To me the only real question for one year starters is if they are NFL level QBs why weren't they starting beforehand?
I'm not going to base my football opinions on betting lines, but feel free if that's how you do it.
The similarities are in them both being guys who can make all of the throws, both being guys who need to work on their deep ball a bit, and lack of experience. I didn't say Haskins mirrors Trubisky - I just see a few similarities. Trubisky moves a bit better and has better athleticism - but he's still a pass-first QB who was drafted for his arm.
Scouts still think experience matters. We can diminish it and pretend it doesn't, but in terms of learning progressions with real pressure, dealing with real game scenarios, etc. 7 on 7's just don't do it. These guys need actual reps and a lot of people were surprised that Haskins wasn't going back for another year to get more experience under his belt.
I still think he can swing it at the NFL level as a 1 year starter - but I expect a learning curve and early struggles. He won't hit the ground running the same way DeShaun Watson did last year. Watson was able to play more of an improv game because he's more athletic and more reliant on his legs. Haskins is going to be a more traditional passer.
As said, we'll know how big Murray is at the combine. For now, I
believe OU. Also, someone said Wilson weighs 225. nfl.com lists him as 215. If he is drafted by the Giants, Murray will probably sit a year behind Eli, while working out to get stronger. Regarding his wanting to play baseball, DG, if nothing else, is a gm who does his homework and won't draft him if he's not fully committed to his nfl career.
Both can make all the throws, but Trubisky can't sniff Haskins accuracy, decision making, or presnap.
You're right about those things not simulating actual gameplay, but QBs are inundated with advanced passing schemes and concepts at the high school level now. A huge component of development of QB's is understanding the schemes and concepts and making the right reads. You can do that in 7 on 7. The NFL is doing a lot of what is happening in the college game as well so the learning curve isn't as steep.
QB isn't this scarce commodity it once was. Trubisky is a guy that is coming out every year out of college football. And clearly you can win with him. I feel like Haskins is worthy of the 6 pick because he offers you a much a higher ceiling. Admittedly, his bust potential is probably higher as well because we really don't know what he looks like under pressure. Maybe he folds like a cheap suit, but personally I don't get that Sam Bradford feel from him.
Scouts also make decisions that won't get them fired
as opposed to home run hits. This is a big reason why these guys don't like one year starters. Back the question of if this guy was so good why wasn't he starting before which there could be a myriad of reasons before. Who the hell was Trubisky stuck behind at UNC? Haskins was stuck behind a guy a better fit for Meyer's offense who was prolific there, but clearly a college only QB.
RE: If any idea is outdated, its that these guys need to last a decade
1 be too lofty in my comparison
2 compare an African-American QB to another African-American QB
Despite 1, 2, the way he throws the ball in terms of throwing form, perfectly placed spiral (not only for the completion but easy catch-ability and placement) reminds me of Warren Moon. To be clear, I will not go as far as saying he will have Moon's HOF type career, but just in terms of how he throws it, that's who I see.
RE: RE: If any idea is outdated, its that these guys need to last a decade
QBs drafted this high are on a very reasonable team friendly deal allowing for teams to really have a chance to build the roster and compete
And then if successful, they sign a massive cap killing deal for years
This team has 2 generational players on offense NOW
Odell is 26 years old
Barkley is a 21 year old RB
This team really needs to maximixe their peak together which will be in the next 5 years, maybe 7 years. Certainly not 10.
If Kylar Murray does that, isnt that worth it?
And if he lasts as long as RGIII? How did that work out for the Skins?
RG3:
1 was in a gimmick offense that resulted in short term success and injury
2 despite being athletic, was among the worst I've ever seen in terms of feeling the rush, I've never seen a guy get hit that hard so often (both in and out of the pocket) and I attribute that to a severe lack of awareness
but as a pure passer I like Murray better than I do Haskins.
This is actually right.
Technically, I think Murray has a terrific, economical delivery. He can really whip through it to get some real velocity, and he can apply the touch. The real beauty? He can execute that in or out of the pocket. Haskins needs time, which he was afforded by many "Mississippis" behind the OSU Berlin Wall.
Lock throws the ball better than Haskins, too, btw.
I know it's been said, but it bears repeating - if Murray was 6' or taller the race to get to the top draft spot would be a show.
1 be too lofty in my comparison
2 compare an African-American QB to another African-American QB
Despite 1, 2, the way he throws the ball in terms of throwing form, perfectly placed spiral (not only for the completion but easy catch-ability and placement) reminds me of Warren Moon. To be clear, I will not go as far as saying he will have Moon's HOF type career, but just in terms of how he throws it, that's who I see.
1 be too lofty in my comparison
2 compare an African-American QB to another African-American QB
Despite 1, 2, the way he throws the ball in terms of throwing form, perfectly placed spiral (not only for the completion but easy catch-ability and placement) reminds me of Warren Moon. To be clear, I will not go as far as saying he will have Moon's HOF type career, but just in terms of how he throws it, that's who I see.
When I watch Haskins I see Roethlisberger.
Ben's differentiating attribute has been that he's an absolute bear to bring down and that he's surprisingly nifty and both extend plays and then use him elite arm strength down field. I haven't seen that from Haskins yet, but I don't doubt that he's got some "escapability" in him. Clearly, he has the arm strength to be on par with anyone.
The As allowed Murray to play football for year
twostepgiants : 4:20 pm : link : reply
With a 4 mil risk on it
"Hes a very elusive runner, and you rarely see a defender get a clean shot at him."
Thats from an article ive linked below on how Murray avoids injury
He will be in the NFL. Throw a lot of the techniques from college out the window. He'll be a running QB going up against guys much larger and stronger than him that are only slightly slower.
Sproles was mentioned above. He's a really good example of a smaller guy, and he's lost almost 4 seasons due to injuries, and he not only has a lower center of gravity, he too made moves that avoided injury. Look at it this way, even if you avoid injury 99% of the time, a guy running is going to hit 100 a lot quicker than a guy in the pocket.
You really can't be seriously acting as if there shouldn't be injury concerns here.
Haskins doesn't fall apart as soon as the pocket does - he made several plays in messy pockets. I think he's being unfairly pegged as being completely immobile a-la Brady. He can move. He's just not Murray.
And yes, if Murray was over 6' tall, he'd be the consensus top pick. He's not over 6 feet tall, and he's not going to get any taller. So, that's kind of a worthless point to make.
I can see it now. Murray is going to be the QB that everyone goes wild over, falls in love with the "wow" factor, falls back into the "revolutionary" trap with, and then it's going to fall apart before he even gets to the end of his rookie deal. I'm not sure he'll even make it halfway as a full time NFL QB.
I'm telling you guys - trying to build an offense around a guy who isn't going to be able to stand in the pocket and be a pocket QB is going to be risky business. You're going to have to get Murray in space a LOT for him to see the field the way he needs to. Tons of spread concepts.
Murray can try to stand back there and be a pocket passer, but he won't see the field well and a lot of passes will get knocked down at the LOS just like they did when Flutie played.
I actually agree with your Murray points. I was raising the "what if 6'" point just, again, to say what a show it would be in that scramble to draft him.
There is a lot of risk to taking him. More than any interesting QB prospect maybe my lifetime. The NFL is in such a state of flux with what works that he may be the guy that really breaks the size barrier.
I love the guy, but still think those size metrics matter.
I think he's got an incredible package of quickness and speed. That will undoubtedly work in the NFL. The problem is NFL players will catch him - eventually - and they will pound that diminutive frame.
Ben's differentiating attribute has been that he's an absolute bear to bring down and that he's surprisingly nifty and both extend plays and then use him elite arm strength down field. I haven't seen that from Haskins yet, but I don't doubt that he's got some "escapability" in him. Clearly, he has the arm strength to be on par with anyone.
I wasn't suggesting that Haskins was tough to bring down like Roethlisberger. They both stand tall in the pocket and they both have sneaky athleticism. Nobody will confuse Haskins with Murray but Haskins can run and buy time when needed. You expect a statue like Brady or Peyton when looking at Haskins but then he will surprise you and run or scramble to buy time. Haskins can also get rid of the ball quickly and he doesn't panic when his pocket collapses.
Ben's differentiating attribute has been that he's an absolute bear to bring down and that he's surprisingly nifty and both extend plays and then use him elite arm strength down field. I haven't seen that from Haskins yet, but I don't doubt that he's got some "escapability" in him. Clearly, he has the arm strength to be on par with anyone.
I wasn't suggesting that Haskins was tough to bring down like Roethlisberger. They both stand tall in the pocket and they both have sneaky athleticism. Nobody will confuse Haskins with Murray but Haskins can run and buy time when needed. You expect a statue like Brady or Peyton when looking at Haskins but then he will surprise you and run or scramble to buy time. Haskins can also get rid of the ball quickly and he doesn't panic when his pocket collapses.
Yep, I think we agree. There is a lot to like with this kid.
Tua is listed at 6'1". I think he's closer to 6' but let's give him 6'1".
In that photo, Murray is at least 4 inches shorter - easily. And it's not like either Tua or Haskins have big heels on their dress shoes. At best, he's 5'8" and change.
Tua is listed at 6'1". I think he's closer to 6' but let's give him 6'1".
In that photo, Murray is at least 4 inches shorter - easily. And it's not like either Tua or Haskins have big heels on their dress shoes. At best, he's 5'8" and change.
but in the photos I've seen of him and Mayfield it doesn't look like there's that big of a height discrepancy (although it may be misleading given the angles, especially in the second photo). We'll find out soon enough.
Tua is listed at 6'1". I think he's closer to 6' but let's give him 6'1".
In that photo, Murray is at least 4 inches shorter - easily. And it's not like either Tua or Haskins have big heels on their dress shoes. At best, he's 5'8"
Tua is not wearing flats in that photo
I meant that TUa is wearing flats and has a lift in that photo.
but what do we think of Tyree Jackson from Buffalo?
He's basically the opposite of Murray...6'7", 245. Looks like he can throw the ball from here to the moon, and can move a little bit.
The other guy that's intriguing, if you go by the Parcells rules of starting at least 30 games and winning at least 23, is Brett Rypien. A 38-12 record as a starter is pretty damn impressive.
but in the photos I've seen of him and Mayfield it doesn't look like there's that big of a height discrepancy (although it may be misleading given the angles, especially in the second photo). We'll find out soon enough.
In that first photo, Mayfield has no helmet, Murray has a helmet. You don't think that makes Murray appear taller?
but what do we think of Tyree Jackson from Buffalo?
He's basically the opposite of Murray...6'7", 245. Looks like he can throw the ball from here to the moon, and can move a little bit.
The other guy that's intriguing, if you go by the Parcells rules of starting at least 30 games and winning at least 23, is Brett Rypien. A 38-12 record as a starter is pretty damn impressive.
Jackson at times looked like the Cam Newton of the MAC. Looked great running by and through MAC defenders. Not sure if that would work at NFL speed. But he does have a plus arm. And he looks like a heck of an athlete. Interesting, project type.
NFL hasn't been kind, however, to really tall QBs. They tend to have a big hitting zone for defenders.
Cam Newton has played 8 seasons
twostepgiants : 7:43 pm : link : reply
And missed a handful of games. Thats remarkable
Most QBs will miss significant time over their careers at some point no matter pocket passer or runner
Tom Brady
Peyton Manning
Dan Marino
Vinny Testaverde
Joe Montana
All have missed full seasons due to injury
Eli Mannings iron man streak was notable because it was rare, not the norm. QBs get hurt and miss games.
Of course pocket passers still get injured, but running QB's have a really difficult time staying healthy. You still don't seem to understand that a scrambler vs. a runner makes a huge difference and is a huge difference. Try to name a running QB who had an Ironman streak. Meanwhile, you can name a lot of scrambling QB's who stayed relatively healthy, whether it be Tarkenton, Favre, Archie Manning, Wilson, etc.
Cam Newton's effectiveness and health over his career has diminished because of the amount of hits he has taken and he's been advised to stay in the pocket as much as possible.
It's almost as if you are dismissing that Murray is likely to get hurt. He would be the smallest, lightest QB to play. Let that sink in for awhile.
But part of what's made Newton effective is his rushing
He has 58 TDs rushing. Carolina's been really good in short yardage and goal line since he's been a part of their running game. He also isn't the greatest passer...but his running ability helps keep defenses honest and create throwing lanes.
Durability matters, I agree. But there's a tipping point at which you make the player far less effective. In Newton's case, if you take away his running threat and make him strictly a pocket passer he probably isn't a starting QB in the NFL.
And in 8 years I believe he's only missed 6 games. I'm not the biggest Newton fan in the world, but his mobility makes him a problem.
First game I was like who the hell is that. Kinda soured on him the more I saw of him, but he is an interesting development prospect. He seems kinda slow through his progressions, but he has a huge arm and is pretty accurate. Definitely helps he had NFL talent on the outside in the MAC.
That picture where they are both throwing next to each other
you can just see Mayfield has a much bigger frame through his upper body. Murray is pretty thick through the legs though. I agree with arc that its not a remote thrower. Also agree that he is going to be a guy that makes headlines early, but Haskins is the ten year starter. However, with how valuable having rookie qbs that outperform their contracts Murray may be the more valuable pick.
Tua is listed at 6'1". I think he's closer to 6' but let's give him 6'1".
In that photo, Murray is at least 4 inches shorter - easily. And it's not like either Tua or Haskins have big heels on their dress shoes. At best, he's 5'8" and change.
Tua is not wearing flats in that photo
dress shoes have about 3/4 heel. they all are wearing dress shoes. Kyler looks tiny.
I believe Kylar Murray is an absolute stud and the right QB at the right time and will form an incredible trio with Odell and Barkley that could legendary.
You have the risk of wasting a first rounder on a guy who will choose to play baseball.
Read that article posted in another thread last night with interviews with Murray's high school teammates, coaches, colleges teammates, etc.
It seemed very clear Murray has no interest in doing the minor league circuit and playing in front of paltry crowds. The guy gets a huge rush - who wouldn't, obviously - playing in front of big crowds. That's really important to Murray. So unless the A's/Bean guarantee him an instant starting role in the Bigs, I don't see Murray going back.
And then if successful, they sign a massive cap killing deal for years
This team has 2 generational players on offense NOW
Odell is 26 years old
Barkley is a 21 year old RB
This team really needs to maximixe their peak together which will be in the next 5 years, maybe 7 years. Certainly not 10.
If Kylar Murray does that, isnt that worth it?
Outdated? Drew Brees and Tom Brady are two of the 4 QB's left right now. Both guys are 40. They'll gladly disagree with you.
I also don't have any faith in Murray even being effective for 5-7 years. If I did, I'd be more willing to take him.
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In comment 14265396 Big Blue '56 said:
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In comment 14265367 arcarsenal said:
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Murray isn't a remote-thrower for me - don't get me wrong. I am just wary of his longevity and any time you have that question with a QB, it's a very risky proposition.
I really just like Haskins more and think he has more of what we should be looking for from an NFL QB.
Murray seems too gadgety for me. I can't shake the feeling that he'll be one of those guys who excites everyone early in his career and makes dazzling plays and has everyone talking about "revolutionizing" the QB position, etc, etc.. only for him to get hurt or for it to stop being effective in short order.
When I look at Haskins, I see a guy who has staying power in this league. Of course, anyone can get hurt - but Haskins can stand in the pocket and deliver. Murray isn't going to be able to play that way.
My guess is Murray is the guy who makes the early headlines, but Haskins is the guy who becomes the 10 year starter.
Is Haskins Mobile at all?
Yes. Nothing like Murray plays - but Haskins can pull the ball down and take off if he needs to. He got smarter with this as the year went on. He's a bigger guy and isn't super fast, but he's not totally stuck in mud.
Several instances where he had a collapsing pocket, found a lane, and took off for a first down.
His mobility is more like Andrew Lucks (without the early career recklessness) than Lamar Jackson's - but he can move when he needs to and will make a couple of plays with his legs.
Thats good to know, thanks. Anything like Romo mobile?
Romo was more... "slippery"
He had a sneaky elusiveness to him despite not being very fast or even quick. One of those guys you'd think you have dead to rights and he'd wiggle out of it somehow and buy time.
Haskins stands tall in the pocket and wants to throw the football, but when the pocket collapses, he has a pretty good feel and will either sense where the pocket is moving or get out of it and get what he can with his legs.
His instincts seemed to get better as the year went on as far as taking off and running.
I see some Mitch Trubisky in Haskins.
Trubisky, like Haskins, was only a 1 year starter. He's doing a lot of his learning in the NFL and got quite a bit better between year 1 and year 2.
Haskins hasn't taken an NFL snap yet. "Haskins is better than Trubisky" is not a provable point at this juncture, it's an opinion stated as a fact without any actual evidence or proof.
I'm obviously all aboard the Haskins train. But to say he's already better than a guy who just went 11-3 as a starter, led his team to a division title and made very large strides between his first and second seasons is a little too aggressive. Haskins has to actually take an NFL snap before we make proclamations like those.
Better prospect? I could level with that a little more - but still, Trubisky was a pretty sought-after prospect considering he was just a 1 year starter and it was for a smaller program.
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Trubisky isn't what the media make him out to be. Vegas didn't see a ton of drop off between Trubisky and Daniels. Pretty much tells you what you need to know.
Trubisky, like Haskins, was only a 1 year starter. He's doing a lot of his learning in the NFL and got quite a bit better between year 1 and year 2.
Haskins hasn't taken an NFL snap yet. "Haskins is better than Trubisky" is not a provable point at this juncture, it's an opinion stated as a fact without any actual evidence or proof.
I'm obviously all aboard the Haskins train. But to say he's already better than a guy who just went 11-3 as a starter, led his team to a division title and made very large strides between his first and second seasons is a little too aggressive. Haskins has to actually take an NFL snap before we make proclamations like those.
Better prospect? I could level with that a little more - but still, Trubisky was a pretty sought-after prospect considering he was just a 1 year starter and it was for a smaller program.
👍
The similarities are in them both being guys who can make all of the throws, both being guys who need to work on their deep ball a bit, and lack of experience. I didn't say Haskins mirrors Trubisky - I just see a few similarities. Trubisky moves a bit better and has better athleticism - but he's still a pass-first QB who was drafted for his arm.
Scouts still think experience matters. We can diminish it and pretend it doesn't, but in terms of learning progressions with real pressure, dealing with real game scenarios, etc. 7 on 7's just don't do it. These guys need actual reps and a lot of people were surprised that Haskins wasn't going back for another year to get more experience under his belt.
I still think he can swing it at the NFL level as a 1 year starter - but I expect a learning curve and early struggles. He won't hit the ground running the same way DeShaun Watson did last year. Watson was able to play more of an improv game because he's more athletic and more reliant on his legs. Haskins is going to be a more traditional passer.
You're right about those things not simulating actual gameplay, but QBs are inundated with advanced passing schemes and concepts at the high school level now. A huge component of development of QB's is understanding the schemes and concepts and making the right reads. You can do that in 7 on 7. The NFL is doing a lot of what is happening in the college game as well so the learning curve isn't as steep.
QB isn't this scarce commodity it once was. Trubisky is a guy that is coming out every year out of college football. And clearly you can win with him. I feel like Haskins is worthy of the 6 pick because he offers you a much a higher ceiling. Admittedly, his bust potential is probably higher as well because we really don't know what he looks like under pressure. Maybe he folds like a cheap suit, but personally I don't get that Sam Bradford feel from him.
And then if successful, they sign a massive cap killing deal for years
This team has 2 generational players on offense NOW
Odell is 26 years old
Barkley is a 21 year old RB
This team really needs to maximixe their peak together which will be in the next 5 years, maybe 7 years. Certainly not 10.
If Kylar Murray does that, isnt that worth it?
And if he lasts as long as RGIII? How did that work out for the Skins?
1 be too lofty in my comparison
2 compare an African-American QB to another African-American QB
Despite 1, 2, the way he throws the ball in terms of throwing form, perfectly placed spiral (not only for the completion but easy catch-ability and placement) reminds me of Warren Moon. To be clear, I will not go as far as saying he will have Moon's HOF type career, but just in terms of how he throws it, that's who I see.
Quote:
QBs drafted this high are on a very reasonable team friendly deal allowing for teams to really have a chance to build the roster and compete
And then if successful, they sign a massive cap killing deal for years
This team has 2 generational players on offense NOW
Odell is 26 years old
Barkley is a 21 year old RB
This team really needs to maximixe their peak together which will be in the next 5 years, maybe 7 years. Certainly not 10.
If Kylar Murray does that, isnt that worth it?
And if he lasts as long as RGIII? How did that work out for the Skins?
RG3:
1 was in a gimmick offense that resulted in short term success and injury
2 despite being athletic, was among the worst I've ever seen in terms of feeling the rush, I've never seen a guy get hit that hard so often (both in and out of the pocket) and I attribute that to a severe lack of awareness
"Hes a very elusive runner, and you rarely see a defender get a clean shot at him."
Thats from an article ive linked below on how Murray avoids injury
Article - ( New Window )
This is actually right.
Technically, I think Murray has a terrific, economical delivery. He can really whip through it to get some real velocity, and he can apply the touch. The real beauty? He can execute that in or out of the pocket. Haskins needs time, which he was afforded by many "Mississippis" behind the OSU Berlin Wall.
Lock throws the ball better than Haskins, too, btw.
I know it's been said, but it bears repeating - if Murray was 6' or taller the race to get to the top draft spot would be a show.
1 be too lofty in my comparison
2 compare an African-American QB to another African-American QB
Despite 1, 2, the way he throws the ball in terms of throwing form, perfectly placed spiral (not only for the completion but easy catch-ability and placement) reminds me of Warren Moon. To be clear, I will not go as far as saying he will have Moon's HOF type career, but just in terms of how he throws it, that's who I see.
When I watch Haskins I see Roethlisberger.
Quote:
I want to be careful and not do two things:
1 be too lofty in my comparison
2 compare an African-American QB to another African-American QB
Despite 1, 2, the way he throws the ball in terms of throwing form, perfectly placed spiral (not only for the completion but easy catch-ability and placement) reminds me of Warren Moon. To be clear, I will not go as far as saying he will have Moon's HOF type career, but just in terms of how he throws it, that's who I see.
When I watch Haskins I see Roethlisberger.
Ben's differentiating attribute has been that he's an absolute bear to bring down and that he's surprisingly nifty and both extend plays and then use him elite arm strength down field. I haven't seen that from Haskins yet, but I don't doubt that he's got some "escapability" in him. Clearly, he has the arm strength to be on par with anyone.
twostepgiants : 4:20 pm : link : reply
With a 4 mil risk on it
"Hes a very elusive runner, and you rarely see a defender get a clean shot at him."
Thats from an article ive linked below on how Murray avoids injury
He will be in the NFL. Throw a lot of the techniques from college out the window. He'll be a running QB going up against guys much larger and stronger than him that are only slightly slower.
Sproles was mentioned above. He's a really good example of a smaller guy, and he's lost almost 4 seasons due to injuries, and he not only has a lower center of gravity, he too made moves that avoided injury. Look at it this way, even if you avoid injury 99% of the time, a guy running is going to hit 100 a lot quicker than a guy in the pocket.
You really can't be seriously acting as if there shouldn't be injury concerns here.
And yes, if Murray was over 6' tall, he'd be the consensus top pick. He's not over 6 feet tall, and he's not going to get any taller. So, that's kind of a worthless point to make.
I can see it now. Murray is going to be the QB that everyone goes wild over, falls in love with the "wow" factor, falls back into the "revolutionary" trap with, and then it's going to fall apart before he even gets to the end of his rookie deal. I'm not sure he'll even make it halfway as a full time NFL QB.
I'm telling you guys - trying to build an offense around a guy who isn't going to be able to stand in the pocket and be a pocket QB is going to be risky business. You're going to have to get Murray in space a LOT for him to see the field the way he needs to. Tons of spread concepts.
Murray can try to stand back there and be a pocket passer, but he won't see the field well and a lot of passes will get knocked down at the LOS just like they did when Flutie played.
There is a lot of risk to taking him. More than any interesting QB prospect maybe my lifetime. The NFL is in such a state of flux with what works that he may be the guy that really breaks the size barrier.
I love the guy, but still think those size metrics matter.
I think he's got an incredible package of quickness and speed. That will undoubtedly work in the NFL. The problem is NFL players will catch him - eventually - and they will pound that diminutive frame.
Ben's differentiating attribute has been that he's an absolute bear to bring down and that he's surprisingly nifty and both extend plays and then use him elite arm strength down field. I haven't seen that from Haskins yet, but I don't doubt that he's got some "escapability" in him. Clearly, he has the arm strength to be on par with anyone.
I wasn't suggesting that Haskins was tough to bring down like Roethlisberger. They both stand tall in the pocket and they both have sneaky athleticism. Nobody will confuse Haskins with Murray but Haskins can run and buy time when needed. You expect a statue like Brady or Peyton when looking at Haskins but then he will surprise you and run or scramble to buy time. Haskins can also get rid of the ball quickly and he doesn't panic when his pocket collapses.
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Ben's differentiating attribute has been that he's an absolute bear to bring down and that he's surprisingly nifty and both extend plays and then use him elite arm strength down field. I haven't seen that from Haskins yet, but I don't doubt that he's got some "escapability" in him. Clearly, he has the arm strength to be on par with anyone.
I wasn't suggesting that Haskins was tough to bring down like Roethlisberger. They both stand tall in the pocket and they both have sneaky athleticism. Nobody will confuse Haskins with Murray but Haskins can run and buy time when needed. You expect a statue like Brady or Peyton when looking at Haskins but then he will surprise you and run or scramble to buy time. Haskins can also get rid of the ball quickly and he doesn't panic when his pocket collapses.
Yep, I think we agree. There is a lot to like with this kid.
He's been one of the more durable running QB's and even he has lost time and has been urged to stay in the pocket more often
Tua is listed at 6'1". I think he's closer to 6' but let's give him 6'1".
In that photo, Murray is at least 4 inches shorter - easily. And it's not like either Tua or Haskins have big heels on their dress shoes. At best, he's 5'8" and change.
Video of hit - ( New Window )
Tua is listed at 6'1". I think he's closer to 6' but let's give him 6'1".
In that photo, Murray is at least 4 inches shorter - easily. And it's not like either Tua or Haskins have big heels on their dress shoes. At best, he's 5'8" and change.
Tua is not wearing flats in that photo
Most QBs will miss significant time over their careers at some point no matter pocket passer or runner
Tom Brady
Peyton Manning
Dan Marino
Vinny Testaverde
Joe Montana
All have missed full seasons due to injury
Eli Mannings iron man streak was notable because it was rare, not the norm. QBs get hurt and miss games.
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I posted that photo last night.
Tua is listed at 6'1". I think he's closer to 6' but let's give him 6'1".
In that photo, Murray is at least 4 inches shorter - easily. And it's not like either Tua or Haskins have big heels on their dress shoes. At best, he's 5'8"
Tua is not wearing flats in that photo
I meant that TUa is wearing flats and has a lift in that photo.
Photos are a terrible way to judge height
He's basically the opposite of Murray...6'7", 245. Looks like he can throw the ball from here to the moon, and can move a little bit.
The other guy that's intriguing, if you go by the Parcells rules of starting at least 30 games and winning at least 23, is Brett Rypien. A 38-12 record as a starter is pretty damn impressive.
In that first photo, Mayfield has no helmet, Murray has a helmet. You don't think that makes Murray appear taller?
He's basically the opposite of Murray...6'7", 245. Looks like he can throw the ball from here to the moon, and can move a little bit.
The other guy that's intriguing, if you go by the Parcells rules of starting at least 30 games and winning at least 23, is Brett Rypien. A 38-12 record as a starter is pretty damn impressive.
Jackson at times looked like the Cam Newton of the MAC. Looked great running by and through MAC defenders. Not sure if that would work at NFL speed. But he does have a plus arm. And he looks like a heck of an athlete. Interesting, project type.
NFL hasn't been kind, however, to really tall QBs. They tend to have a big hitting zone for defenders.
twostepgiants : 7:43 pm : link : reply
And missed a handful of games. Thats remarkable
Most QBs will miss significant time over their careers at some point no matter pocket passer or runner
Tom Brady
Peyton Manning
Dan Marino
Vinny Testaverde
Joe Montana
All have missed full seasons due to injury
Eli Mannings iron man streak was notable because it was rare, not the norm. QBs get hurt and miss games.
Of course pocket passers still get injured, but running QB's have a really difficult time staying healthy. You still don't seem to understand that a scrambler vs. a runner makes a huge difference and is a huge difference. Try to name a running QB who had an Ironman streak. Meanwhile, you can name a lot of scrambling QB's who stayed relatively healthy, whether it be Tarkenton, Favre, Archie Manning, Wilson, etc.
Cam Newton's effectiveness and health over his career has diminished because of the amount of hits he has taken and he's been advised to stay in the pocket as much as possible.
It's almost as if you are dismissing that Murray is likely to get hurt. He would be the smallest, lightest QB to play. Let that sink in for awhile.
Durability matters, I agree. But there's a tipping point at which you make the player far less effective. In Newton's case, if you take away his running threat and make him strictly a pocket passer he probably isn't a starting QB in the NFL.
And in 8 years I believe he's only missed 6 games. I'm not the biggest Newton fan in the world, but his mobility makes him a problem.
I'll repeat, Murray would be one of the shortest and lightest QB's ever.
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I posted that photo last night.
Tua is listed at 6'1". I think he's closer to 6' but let's give him 6'1".
In that photo, Murray is at least 4 inches shorter - easily. And it's not like either Tua or Haskins have big heels on their dress shoes. At best, he's 5'8" and change.
Tua is not wearing flats in that photo
dress shoes have about 3/4 heel. they all are wearing dress shoes. Kyler looks tiny.
I'll repeat, Murray would be one of the shortest and lightest QB's ever.
True, but he's also entering the NFL as a Heisman winner. Clearly his size wasn't an issue in college.
Look I'm not saying we've got to go get the guy. I'm wondering if the guy can play in the NFL.
What if his size scares everyone away and he drops to our pick in round two? Is he worth taking a shot?
It isn't just a singular risk.
You have the risk of wasting a first rounder on a guy who will choose to play baseball.
You have the risk of taking the smallest, lightest starting QB.
A running QB will not thrive in the NFL for an extended period. It isn't sustainable.
You have the risk of wasting a first rounder on a guy who will choose to play baseball.
Read that article posted in another thread last night with interviews with Murray's high school teammates, coaches, colleges teammates, etc.
It seemed very clear Murray has no interest in doing the minor league circuit and playing in front of paltry crowds. The guy gets a huge rush - who wouldn't, obviously - playing in front of big crowds. That's really important to Murray. So unless the A's/Bean guarantee him an instant starting role in the Bigs, I don't see Murray going back.