I think he's an exciting talent & seems to be a good dude. But his height/weight are major ?s. I think he'd get killed in the NFL. For his sake, I hope he pursues baseball.
Russell Wilson measured 5-10 and 3/8ths at Combine
If this were 1985 he wouldn't survive a season, but now that the QBs wear skirts if he can minimize the hits he takes in the run game he should be fine.
Again - the height hangups are not taking weight into consideration.
Just look at Russell Wilson. He is built differently than Kyler Murray. He's much thicker and more built.
And yes, Murray can also add weight - but it's easier said than done and we don't necessarily know if 15-20+ lbs would make a difference in Murray's game either for the better or worse.
Can we go through all of the mobile QBs that have suffered injuries outside the pocket? Rodgers, Mariota, Tannehill, Darnold, Allen, Jimmy G, Big Ben, RGIII, Wentz, Trubisky, etc. Going with a mobile QB regardless of size is very very risky without the size issues. Russell Wislon is the exception and not the rule. Going with a mobile QB isn't thinking oitside the box. It is being late to a trend that isn't working. Winning in the NFL means you need to be able to throw from the pocket. Running around buying time is cute and all but it is inside the pocket where games are truly won. If you aren't standing tall in the pocket in college then that will most likely not be learned in the NFL. And while Murray is a hell of a talent and did some great things this year he showed hiz warts against Alabama. He. Was taking hits, getting passes knocked at the line of scrimmage, and put up numbers after the game was basically over. No way in hell I use the 6th pick in the draft on him. It just isn't smart. Nothing can stop him from just quitting and going to play baseball.
People,especially in the offseason, become too enamored with measurables and too dismissive of what makes players great. Sure size matters, but so does athleticism (no argument he's one of the best prospects ever in this category) and heart/leadership/being a winner (where he also shines). They matter a lot.
Not saying he's a sure thing, but dismissing him on his size is missing a huge part of the picture IMO.
If hes really only a tiny bit shorter than Wilson and ten pounds lighter than Wilson was at the combine I dont think size is an issue. The game has changed, these QBs dont need to be 65 anymore. He does need to be a pass-first player, but thats for the scouts and DG to evaluate.
Theyve missed games but have been incredibly successful
Any QB can get hurt. Pocket QBs get hurt. Aikman, Palmer, Montana all hurt alot. Brady, Marino, Testaverde all missed full seasons.
Phil Simms was always hurt
I just pointed out how people worried about Rosen and injuries. A traditional pocket passer.
And Murray isnt a "scrambler" who runs around trying to "buy time". He runs. There is a difference.
Didn't say they didn't work out did I? What I am saying is that everybody is all about these mobile QBs but not being honest when it comes to them.
Obviously, Big Ben and Rodgers were worth their picks and are going to the HoF. What I am saying is they suffer unnecessary injuries and that kills seasons. Look at Big Ben going to the locker room this year and they missed the playoffs by one game. Look at the last 2 years of Rodgers with getting injured. Their seasons are fucked.
Wentz had a great year last year but he still has a lot left to prove. He has had two serious injuries the last 2 years. Philly's season was saved both years by Foles. That is not the norm.
If you can guarantee super bowls like PIT and GB got with their QBs then awesome but it is basically a 100% chance at least 1 season if not more will be ruined when your QB goes down. And the risk is way higher with these running QBs. This isn't to say a pocket passer will not get injured because they do but not at the same rate. Amd lets look at who is in the final 4, Brady, Brees, Goff, and Mahomes. Now, Goff and Mahomes can make plays outside the pocket but these are primarily guys who stay in the pocket until forced out rather than just move around to move around.
It would be irresponsible for an NFL team to use a first round pick on a player who has a realistic option to play another sport at the highest level.
Despite what he almost certainly will tell NFL teams at the Combine, in good faith, about his love of football and his intention to make it his full-time career, the fact remains that he can change his mind and walk away at any time.
Tampa Bay took Bo Jackson with the first overall pick in 1986. He never played for them. He re-entered the draft the following year and wasn't selected until the seventh round, by the Raiders.
The chances of Dave Gettleman using the sixth overall pick on Kyler Murray are approaching zero.
We cannot miss on our first round pick. That is the worst thing that can happen. We need to hit regardless of the position.
And lets not act like we are in the position we are in because we are a backward thinking franchise. We are in this position because we missed on multiple picks. We didn't go with the safe picks. We went with stupid picks. We tried being forward thinking by going with McAdoo and his shitty ass WCO which wasn't a fit at all. Now everybody is all up Gettleman's ass because it wasn't fixed in one offseason. Give the guy a chance before we label him based off of Reese's tenure.
And a solid pro he will make a lot more money in the NFL over the next 5-8 years than he would in baseball. He will not be set to sign a big MLB contract until his late-20s provided he makes the majors and is a good player then. If your options are potential starting QB or likely minor leaguer for the next few years its a fairly easy choice.
Not to mention he will have WAY more endorsement opportunities as an NFL quarterback than he would in MLB, even if he became one of the best players in baseball. The popularity between the sports is not comparable, virtually every sports fan in America knows every NFL QB, a comparably small subset has any knowledge of MLB players and even then we are only talking about the top few guys in the league. Baseball is a much less popular sport, its a regional sport really. I dont think anyone outside of New York gives a shit about Aaron Judge or Jacob DeGrom, but everyone knows Darnold, Eli, Saquon, Beckham.
I dont think baseball even has a true star player with a national profile at the moment. If you make it in the NFL its a much bigger deal.
If you didnt know it is Sports Information Department. Their entire purpose is Media Relations.
They actually came out and issued a statement with his exact height. They didnt have to do that. They coukd have just let people go off their media guide and if its wrong claim it came from elsewhere. They instead claimed responsibility.
They know the truth will be known at the Combine. They cant hide him being 5-8 or 5-7.
If they have lied they will destroy all of their credibility with their media contacts.
I have worked in a D1 Sports Information Dept before.
I bet Murray will measure exactly what they said just as Baker did.
If Kyler Murray was taken at the 6 pick and paid as such and being prepped all yeAr to take Eli Mannings place in2020, he will instead decide to go play minor league baseball for Oakland in buses & motels to make 4 mil??
To comp. Josh Allen got a fully guaranteed 4 yr 21 mil desl with a 13 mil signing bonus at the 7 pick
Im sure he cant wait to play for the Midland Rockhounds or the Stockton Ports.
If Kyler Murray was taken at the 6 pick and paid as such and being prepped all yeAr to take Eli Mannings place in2020, he will instead decide to go play minor league baseball for Oakland in buses & motels to make 4 mil??
To comp. Josh Allen got a fully guaranteed 4 yr 21 mil desl with a 13 mil signing bonus at the 7 pick
Im sure he cant wait to play for the Midland Rockhounds or the Stockton Ports.
It is just one of the questions. I have seen players get injured and try switching sports. It doesn't have to be an injury. It could be any adversity. It will always weigh on his mind whether he made the right decision or even if he succeeds at football whether or not he would have been successful at baseball. Also, there is a rumor he is trying to squeeze money out of Oakland or whoever drafted him. You cannot deny there is risk. And because of that he isn't worth the pick imo and you can bet your house that Gettleman would not take that risk at 6 either.
Even if he splits time, that's a lot of mileage on one arm.
Doubt he would and even so, its not like hes a pitcher.
Not a problem if he plays RB or CB 16 games, then plays baseball...but playing QB, throwing 500+ passes for 16 games, and then playing maybe 90+ games of baseball? That's a lot of wear and tear.
The Oklahoma SID has officially stated that Murray measured 5-9 and 7/8ths in socks
That makes him less than half an inch smaller then Wilson. Wilson has been very effective in this league and qualifies as a franchise QB.
I think Murray is more talented than Wilson when he entered the League.
So you just look at height. Forget the fact Wilson is built like a running back. Hes probably about 225. Hes easily 25lb heavier than Murray and probably more. Not saying Murray wont make it but frame means more than height if we are talking longevity.
The most revealing thing was Murrays love of the big stage. His drug is performing in front of large crowds. So, and he says it, he absolutely doesnt want to do the minor league circuit in baseball. That grind doesnt suit him. Not being able to play baseball right away in front of MLB sized crowds will be a deterrent. And keep him in football.
He would absolutely screw over one franchise who bent over backwards for him. Hard to trust a guy like that. Whose to say after one year he doesnt go back?
Can we go through all of the mobile QBs that have suffered injuries outside the pocket? Rodgers, Mariota, Tannehill, Darnold, Allen, Jimmy G, Big Ben, RGIII, Wentz, Trubisky, etc. Going with a mobile QB regardless of size is very very risky without the size issues. Russell Wislon is the exception and not the rule. Going with a mobile QB isn't thinking oitside the box. It is being late to a trend that isn't working. Winning in the NFL means you need to be able to throw from the pocket. Running around buying time is cute and all but it is inside the pocket where games are truly won. If you aren't standing tall in the pocket in college then that will most likely not be learned in the NFL. And while Murray is a hell of a talent and did some great things this year he showed hiz warts against Alabama. He. Was taking hits, getting passes knocked at the line of scrimmage, and put up numbers after the game was basically over. No way in hell I use the 6th pick in the draft on him. It just isn't smart. Nothing can stop him from just quitting and going to play baseball.
Sorry. Too much common sense for the now psychotic Murray fans. And as for Wilson how much have they won since their D had declined and Lynch left. Wilson is a very good player but people talk like he's Won as Much as Brady. Maybe he's the NFL version of Mugsy Bogues. If I'm not risking the # 6 on that. His skill set is insane. His physical size playing football is legitimately a counterweight to his skill.
He also Got stuffed by Bama when it mattered. The NFL is fillled w defenses much better than Bama. He's going to see more sophisticated schemes than what he saw in th Big 12. No way for me. But Finding rational thought on those sold is not happening
And Murray isnt a "scrambler" who runs around trying to "buy time". He runs. There is a difference.
There is a difference. One keeps the QB healthy against 300+ pound DL's, LB's who are delivering blows with fierce impact and Safeties who still launch themselves at ball carriers.
One of the reasons Wilson is so effective is because he scrambles to throw. Being a running QB is not a positive in the NFL.
He isnt a runner hes a scrambler who can run and he avoids hits better than any qb whos ever done it. Whos to say Murray has that intelligence or feel for the game. Wilson is a freak and the above poster who says Wilson is overhyped. What has he done without a defense? He took a dog shit team to the playoffs. Carried the offense without Baldwin for a nice chunk of the season. People predicted them to win 5-6 games
I don't see it. Kid is a very exciting player, but I would see him as as an effective third down "wildcat" type option. Given 2 inches and 20 extra pounds, yes I could see it. But he has a tiny frame (think of all the people fretting over Rosen last year at 6'4" and 226 as too slight). USA Today Mock - ( New Window )
I don't think Murray has the frame to put on more weight and his weight distribution is different from wilson. Rosen (who I like) is a good example of a guy who on paper has the right size, but you look at him and he looks slight. RG3 is another. He may be the slightest 6'2 225 qb I've seen. Wilson came in at 204, but he was solid and looked like he had the frame to get bigger.
Last year the same naysayers went on and on sbout Rosen and how he would always be injured and I argued that frame has nothing to do with it and size and used Josh Allen as an example, who had a long injury history that no one cared about but was built like a "monster"
Forward a year and it was Josh Allen who missed games and not Rosen due to injury.
Or you can simply look at "Iron Man" Eli Manning who was considered thin compared to "Big Ben", who as this thread pointed out was oft injured. Or even Philip Rivers who has built his own iton man streak despite people predicting elbow or Arm issues due to his throwing motions
These things are unpredictable
Kyler Murray has Zero injury history despite playing two sports at college at a high level.
Why did allen get hurt vs. Rosen? Not because of unpredictability, b ut because Allen left the pocket purposely to run many more times than Rosen.
It again calls into question why you would think Murray being a "runner" is better than him being a "scrambler". Runners get hurt, even if they are big.
Murray will be facing defenses that will have players only sightly slower than him who will deliver massive hits.
If he wants to play football and he's being successful doing so he won't switch to baseball. If he can't cut it at football he might switch but then it won't matter.
He isnt a runner hes a scrambler who can run and he avoids hits better than any qb whos ever done it. Whos to say Murray has that intelligence or feel for the game. Wilson is a freak and the above poster who says Wilson is overhyped. What has he done without a defense? He took a dog shit team to the playoffs. Carried the offense without Baldwin for a nice chunk of the season. People predicted them to win 5-6 games
This. Wilson avoids injury because he has a fantastic feel for the game and knows when to get down or run out of bounds. He doesn't take unnecessary hits going for an extra yard or two.
The 10-20 lbs he'd have on Murray are irrelevant for his ability to stay healthy. There are plenty of similar QBs with 10-20 lbs on Wilson that are constantly injured or had their careers ruined because they didn't have the same ability to avoid the hits. Does Murray have that innate ability?
I don't see it. Kid is a very exciting player, but I would see him as as an effective third down "wildcat" type option. Given 2 inches and 20 extra pounds, yes I could see it. But he has a tiny frame (think of all the people fretting over Rosen last year at 6'4" and 226 as too slight). USA Today Mock - ( New Window )
It has nothing to do with size. It was Rosen's body. He seems brittle. Drew Brees is 6'0" 205lbs and has played 17 years in the league and only missed one start due to injury. Eli Manning is about the same size as Rosen and seems indestructible. You can be a 6'7" 260lbs QB and still be injury prone.
There is no way in hell the Giants are going to draft Murray.
They can't afford to miss on the sixth pick this year anymore than they could have last year. They are going with the sure thing, whoever that may be.
I could see them spending a 2nd rounder on him if by some miracle he were there but at 6, with this team in the state its in and the pressure to turn the franchise around quickly - no way.
He isnt a runner hes a scrambler who can run and he avoids hits better than any qb whos ever done it. Whos to say Murray has that intelligence or feel for the game. Wilson is a freak and the above poster who says Wilson is overhyped. What has he done without a defense? He took a dog shit team to the playoffs. Carried the offense without Baldwin for a nice chunk of the season. People predicted them to win 5-6 games
This. Wilson avoids injury because he has a fantastic feel for the game and knows when to get down or run out of bounds. He doesn't take unnecessary hits going for an extra yard or two.
The 10-20 lbs he'd have on Murray are irrelevant for his ability to stay healthy. There are plenty of similar QBs with 10-20 lbs on Wilson that are constantly injured or had their careers ruined because they didn't have the same ability to avoid the hits. Does Murray have that innate ability?
The height/weight ratio matters, though.
If a QB is 210 but he's also 6'6".... that's a very wiry frame.
Darren Sproles came up in this conversation in a different thread and the argument was "well, Sproles has been able to take hits in the NFL for over a decade, why can't Murray?"
Sproles weighs around 190, but he's also 5'6". His center of gravity is SO low and he's built like a mini truck for a guy his height. His body is stockier and able to withstand more contact than the guy who outweighs him by 20lbs, but is nearly a foot taller.
It's similar with Wilson. He's short, but his build is very stout. It's also true that he's as good as you'll see in terms of being smart and avoiding big hits.
With Murray, it's going to be very hard for him to deliver NFL strikes out of the pocket. A lot of passes are going to get knocked down, and he's not going to be able to see the field well.
For Murray to succeed in the NFL, he has to go to a team willing to use tons of spread concepts - and he has to be out in space a lot.
My issue with Kyler Murray is simple...
I think you need to play a certain way with him for him to be effective, and I think playing that way will get him injured before long. That's not a dilemma I want to be faced with when I draft a QB.
I think that Murray could get up to the 215-220 range
Murray isn't a remote-thrower for me - don't get me wrong. I am just wary of his longevity and any time you have that question with a QB, it's a very risky proposition.
I really just like Haskins more and think he has more of what we should be looking for from an NFL QB.
Murray seems too gadgety for me. I can't shake the feeling that he'll be one of those guys who excites everyone early in his career and makes dazzling plays and has everyone talking about "revolutionizing" the QB position, etc, etc.. only for him to get hurt or for it to stop being effective in short order.
When I look at Haskins, I see a guy who has staying power in this league. Of course, anyone can get hurt - but Haskins can stand in the pocket and deliver. Murray isn't going to be able to play that way.
My guess is Murray is the guy who makes the early headlines, but Haskins is the guy who becomes the 10 year starter.
Murray isn't a remote-thrower for me - don't get me wrong. I am just wary of his longevity and any time you have that question with a QB, it's a very risky proposition.
I really just like Haskins more and think he has more of what we should be looking for from an NFL QB.
Murray seems too gadgety for me. I can't shake the feeling that he'll be one of those guys who excites everyone early in his career and makes dazzling plays and has everyone talking about "revolutionizing" the QB position, etc, etc.. only for him to get hurt or for it to stop being effective in short order.
When I look at Haskins, I see a guy who has staying power in this league. Of course, anyone can get hurt - but Haskins can stand in the pocket and deliver. Murray isn't going to be able to play that way.
My guess is Murray is the guy who makes the early headlines, but Haskins is the guy who becomes the 10 year starter.
Is Haskins Mobile at all?
I can't believe you guys are making such a big deal over size
Murray isn't a remote-thrower for me - don't get me wrong. I am just wary of his longevity and any time you have that question with a QB, it's a very risky proposition.
I really just like Haskins more and think he has more of what we should be looking for from an NFL QB.
Murray seems too gadgety for me. I can't shake the feeling that he'll be one of those guys who excites everyone early in his career and makes dazzling plays and has everyone talking about "revolutionizing" the QB position, etc, etc.. only for him to get hurt or for it to stop being effective in short order.
When I look at Haskins, I see a guy who has staying power in this league. Of course, anyone can get hurt - but Haskins can stand in the pocket and deliver. Murray isn't going to be able to play that way.
My guess is Murray is the guy who makes the early headlines, but Haskins is the guy who becomes the 10 year starter.
Is Haskins Mobile at all?
Yes. Nothing like Murray plays - but Haskins can pull the ball down and take off if he needs to. He got smarter with this as the year went on. He's a bigger guy and isn't super fast, but he's not totally stuck in mud.
Several instances where he had a collapsing pocket, found a lane, and took off for a first down.
His mobility is more like Andrew Lucks (without the early career recklessness) than Lamar Jackson's - but he can move when he needs to and will make a couple of plays with his legs.
I love Murray, but wouldt stake my franchises future on the guy.
Murray isn't a remote-thrower for me - don't get me wrong. I am just wary of his longevity and any time you have that question with a QB, it's a very risky proposition.
I really just like Haskins more and think he has more of what we should be looking for from an NFL QB.
Murray seems too gadgety for me. I can't shake the feeling that he'll be one of those guys who excites everyone early in his career and makes dazzling plays and has everyone talking about "revolutionizing" the QB position, etc, etc.. only for him to get hurt or for it to stop being effective in short order.
When I look at Haskins, I see a guy who has staying power in this league. Of course, anyone can get hurt - but Haskins can stand in the pocket and deliver. Murray isn't going to be able to play that way.
My guess is Murray is the guy who makes the early headlines, but Haskins is the guy who becomes the 10 year starter.
Is Haskins Mobile at all?
Yes. Nothing like Murray plays - but Haskins can pull the ball down and take off if he needs to. He got smarter with this as the year went on. He's a bigger guy and isn't super fast, but he's not totally stuck in mud.
Several instances where he had a collapsing pocket, found a lane, and took off for a first down.
His mobility is more like Andrew Lucks (without the early career recklessness) than Lamar Jackson's - but he can move when he needs to and will make a couple of plays with his legs.
Thats good to know, thanks. Anything like Romo mobile?
If any idea is outdated, its that these guys need to last a decade
Murray isn't a remote-thrower for me - don't get me wrong. I am just wary of his longevity and any time you have that question with a QB, it's a very risky proposition.
I really just like Haskins more and think he has more of what we should be looking for from an NFL QB.
Murray seems too gadgety for me. I can't shake the feeling that he'll be one of those guys who excites everyone early in his career and makes dazzling plays and has everyone talking about "revolutionizing" the QB position, etc, etc.. only for him to get hurt or for it to stop being effective in short order.
When I look at Haskins, I see a guy who has staying power in this league. Of course, anyone can get hurt - but Haskins can stand in the pocket and deliver. Murray isn't going to be able to play that way.
My guess is Murray is the guy who makes the early headlines, but Haskins is the guy who becomes the 10 year starter.
Is Haskins Mobile at all?
Yes. Nothing like Murray plays - but Haskins can pull the ball down and take off if he needs to. He got smarter with this as the year went on. He's a bigger guy and isn't super fast, but he's not totally stuck in mud.
Several instances where he had a collapsing pocket, found a lane, and took off for a first down.
His mobility is more like Andrew Lucks (without the early career recklessness) than Lamar Jackson's - but he can move when he needs to and will make a couple of plays with his legs.
Thats good to know, thanks. Anything like Romo mobile?
Romo was more... "slippery"
He had a sneaky elusiveness to him despite not being very fast or even quick. One of those guys you'd think you have dead to rights and he'd wiggle out of it somehow and buy time.
Haskins stands tall in the pocket and wants to throw the football, but when the pocket collapses, he has a pretty good feel and will either sense where the pocket is moving or get out of it and get what he can with his legs.
His instincts seemed to get better as the year went on as far as taking off and running.
I see some Mitch Trubisky in Haskins.
Flacco used to be able to do that pre knee surgery.
Trubisky isn't what the media make him out to be. Vegas didn't see a ton of drop off between Trubisky and Daniels. Pretty much tells you what you need to know.
Trubisky isn't what the media make him out to be. Vegas didn't see a ton of drop off between Trubisky and Daniels. Pretty much tells you what you need to know.
Trubisky, like Haskins, was only a 1 year starter. He's doing a lot of his learning in the NFL and got quite a bit better between year 1 and year 2.
Haskins hasn't taken an NFL snap yet. "Haskins is better than Trubisky" is not a provable point at this juncture, it's an opinion stated as a fact without any actual evidence or proof.
I'm obviously all aboard the Haskins train. But to say he's already better than a guy who just went 11-3 as a starter, led his team to a division title and made very large strides between his first and second seasons is a little too aggressive. Haskins has to actually take an NFL snap before we make proclamations like those.
Better prospect? I could level with that a little more - but still, Trubisky was a pretty sought-after prospect considering he was just a 1 year starter and it was for a smaller program.
Trubisky isn't what the media make him out to be. Vegas didn't see a ton of drop off between Trubisky and Daniels. Pretty much tells you what you need to know.
Trubisky, like Haskins, was only a 1 year starter. He's doing a lot of his learning in the NFL and got quite a bit better between year 1 and year 2.
Haskins hasn't taken an NFL snap yet. "Haskins is better than Trubisky" is not a provable point at this juncture, it's an opinion stated as a fact without any actual evidence or proof.
I'm obviously all aboard the Haskins train. But to say he's already better than a guy who just went 11-3 as a starter, led his team to a division title and made very large strides between his first and second seasons is a little too aggressive. Haskins has to actually take an NFL snap before we make proclamations like those.
Better prospect? I could level with that a little more - but still, Trubisky was a pretty sought-after prospect considering he was just a 1 year starter and it was for a smaller program.
and Vegas didn't make much of an adjustment between him and Chase Daniels. Really tells me all I need to know. Other than them being 1 year starters I don't see any similarity in their game. Haskins is way more accurate and less athletic. I think teams fell in love with Trubisky's arm and athleticism and thought hey he's a 1 year starter he's going to get better with some coaching. Trubisky's accuracy and decision making still isn't good.
For the record I don't think the one year starter thing
is really a factor in development that it used to be. The level of coaching and 7 on 7 stuff they are doing at the High School level its leaps and bounds what it was 20 years ago. To me the only real question for one year starters is if they are NFL level QBs why weren't they starting beforehand?
I'm not going to base my football opinions on betting lines, but feel free if that's how you do it.
The similarities are in them both being guys who can make all of the throws, both being guys who need to work on their deep ball a bit, and lack of experience. I didn't say Haskins mirrors Trubisky - I just see a few similarities. Trubisky moves a bit better and has better athleticism - but he's still a pass-first QB who was drafted for his arm.
Scouts still think experience matters. We can diminish it and pretend it doesn't, but in terms of learning progressions with real pressure, dealing with real game scenarios, etc. 7 on 7's just don't do it. These guys need actual reps and a lot of people were surprised that Haskins wasn't going back for another year to get more experience under his belt.
I still think he can swing it at the NFL level as a 1 year starter - but I expect a learning curve and early struggles. He won't hit the ground running the same way DeShaun Watson did last year. Watson was able to play more of an improv game because he's more athletic and more reliant on his legs. Haskins is going to be a more traditional passer.
As said, we'll know how big Murray is at the combine. For now, I
believe OU. Also, someone said Wilson weighs 225. nfl.com lists him as 215. If he is drafted by the Giants, Murray will probably sit a year behind Eli, while working out to get stronger. Regarding his wanting to play baseball, DG, if nothing else, is a gm who does his homework and won't draft him if he's not fully committed to his nfl career.
Both can make all the throws, but Trubisky can't sniff Haskins accuracy, decision making, or presnap.
You're right about those things not simulating actual gameplay, but QBs are inundated with advanced passing schemes and concepts at the high school level now. A huge component of development of QB's is understanding the schemes and concepts and making the right reads. You can do that in 7 on 7. The NFL is doing a lot of what is happening in the college game as well so the learning curve isn't as steep.
QB isn't this scarce commodity it once was. Trubisky is a guy that is coming out every year out of college football. And clearly you can win with him. I feel like Haskins is worthy of the 6 pick because he offers you a much a higher ceiling. Admittedly, his bust potential is probably higher as well because we really don't know what he looks like under pressure. Maybe he folds like a cheap suit, but personally I don't get that Sam Bradford feel from him.
Scouts also make decisions that won't get them fired
as opposed to home run hits. This is a big reason why these guys don't like one year starters. Back the question of if this guy was so good why wasn't he starting before which there could be a myriad of reasons before. Who the hell was Trubisky stuck behind at UNC? Haskins was stuck behind a guy a better fit for Meyer's offense who was prolific there, but clearly a college only QB.
RE: If any idea is outdated, its that these guys need to last a decade
1 be too lofty in my comparison
2 compare an African-American QB to another African-American QB
Despite 1, 2, the way he throws the ball in terms of throwing form, perfectly placed spiral (not only for the completion but easy catch-ability and placement) reminds me of Warren Moon. To be clear, I will not go as far as saying he will have Moon's HOF type career, but just in terms of how he throws it, that's who I see.
RE: RE: If any idea is outdated, its that these guys need to last a decade
QBs drafted this high are on a very reasonable team friendly deal allowing for teams to really have a chance to build the roster and compete
And then if successful, they sign a massive cap killing deal for years
This team has 2 generational players on offense NOW
Odell is 26 years old
Barkley is a 21 year old RB
This team really needs to maximixe their peak together which will be in the next 5 years, maybe 7 years. Certainly not 10.
If Kylar Murray does that, isnt that worth it?
And if he lasts as long as RGIII? How did that work out for the Skins?
RG3:
1 was in a gimmick offense that resulted in short term success and injury
2 despite being athletic, was among the worst I've ever seen in terms of feeling the rush, I've never seen a guy get hit that hard so often (both in and out of the pocket) and I attribute that to a severe lack of awareness
but as a pure passer I like Murray better than I do Haskins.
This is actually right.
Technically, I think Murray has a terrific, economical delivery. He can really whip through it to get some real velocity, and he can apply the touch. The real beauty? He can execute that in or out of the pocket. Haskins needs time, which he was afforded by many "Mississippis" behind the OSU Berlin Wall.
Lock throws the ball better than Haskins, too, btw.
I know it's been said, but it bears repeating - if Murray was 6' or taller the race to get to the top draft spot would be a show.
1 be too lofty in my comparison
2 compare an African-American QB to another African-American QB
Despite 1, 2, the way he throws the ball in terms of throwing form, perfectly placed spiral (not only for the completion but easy catch-ability and placement) reminds me of Warren Moon. To be clear, I will not go as far as saying he will have Moon's HOF type career, but just in terms of how he throws it, that's who I see.
1 be too lofty in my comparison
2 compare an African-American QB to another African-American QB
Despite 1, 2, the way he throws the ball in terms of throwing form, perfectly placed spiral (not only for the completion but easy catch-ability and placement) reminds me of Warren Moon. To be clear, I will not go as far as saying he will have Moon's HOF type career, but just in terms of how he throws it, that's who I see.
When I watch Haskins I see Roethlisberger.
Ben's differentiating attribute has been that he's an absolute bear to bring down and that he's surprisingly nifty and both extend plays and then use him elite arm strength down field. I haven't seen that from Haskins yet, but I don't doubt that he's got some "escapability" in him. Clearly, he has the arm strength to be on par with anyone.
The As allowed Murray to play football for year
twostepgiants : 4:20 pm : link : reply
With a 4 mil risk on it
"Hes a very elusive runner, and you rarely see a defender get a clean shot at him."
Thats from an article ive linked below on how Murray avoids injury
He will be in the NFL. Throw a lot of the techniques from college out the window. He'll be a running QB going up against guys much larger and stronger than him that are only slightly slower.
Sproles was mentioned above. He's a really good example of a smaller guy, and he's lost almost 4 seasons due to injuries, and he not only has a lower center of gravity, he too made moves that avoided injury. Look at it this way, even if you avoid injury 99% of the time, a guy running is going to hit 100 a lot quicker than a guy in the pocket.
You really can't be seriously acting as if there shouldn't be injury concerns here.
Haskins doesn't fall apart as soon as the pocket does - he made several plays in messy pockets. I think he's being unfairly pegged as being completely immobile a-la Brady. He can move. He's just not Murray.
And yes, if Murray was over 6' tall, he'd be the consensus top pick. He's not over 6 feet tall, and he's not going to get any taller. So, that's kind of a worthless point to make.
I can see it now. Murray is going to be the QB that everyone goes wild over, falls in love with the "wow" factor, falls back into the "revolutionary" trap with, and then it's going to fall apart before he even gets to the end of his rookie deal. I'm not sure he'll even make it halfway as a full time NFL QB.
I'm telling you guys - trying to build an offense around a guy who isn't going to be able to stand in the pocket and be a pocket QB is going to be risky business. You're going to have to get Murray in space a LOT for him to see the field the way he needs to. Tons of spread concepts.
Murray can try to stand back there and be a pocket passer, but he won't see the field well and a lot of passes will get knocked down at the LOS just like they did when Flutie played.
I actually agree with your Murray points. I was raising the "what if 6'" point just, again, to say what a show it would be in that scramble to draft him.
There is a lot of risk to taking him. More than any interesting QB prospect maybe my lifetime. The NFL is in such a state of flux with what works that he may be the guy that really breaks the size barrier.
I love the guy, but still think those size metrics matter.
I think he's got an incredible package of quickness and speed. That will undoubtedly work in the NFL. The problem is NFL players will catch him - eventually - and they will pound that diminutive frame.
Ben's differentiating attribute has been that he's an absolute bear to bring down and that he's surprisingly nifty and both extend plays and then use him elite arm strength down field. I haven't seen that from Haskins yet, but I don't doubt that he's got some "escapability" in him. Clearly, he has the arm strength to be on par with anyone.
I wasn't suggesting that Haskins was tough to bring down like Roethlisberger. They both stand tall in the pocket and they both have sneaky athleticism. Nobody will confuse Haskins with Murray but Haskins can run and buy time when needed. You expect a statue like Brady or Peyton when looking at Haskins but then he will surprise you and run or scramble to buy time. Haskins can also get rid of the ball quickly and he doesn't panic when his pocket collapses.
Ben's differentiating attribute has been that he's an absolute bear to bring down and that he's surprisingly nifty and both extend plays and then use him elite arm strength down field. I haven't seen that from Haskins yet, but I don't doubt that he's got some "escapability" in him. Clearly, he has the arm strength to be on par with anyone.
I wasn't suggesting that Haskins was tough to bring down like Roethlisberger. They both stand tall in the pocket and they both have sneaky athleticism. Nobody will confuse Haskins with Murray but Haskins can run and buy time when needed. You expect a statue like Brady or Peyton when looking at Haskins but then he will surprise you and run or scramble to buy time. Haskins can also get rid of the ball quickly and he doesn't panic when his pocket collapses.
Yep, I think we agree. There is a lot to like with this kid.
Tua is listed at 6'1". I think he's closer to 6' but let's give him 6'1".
In that photo, Murray is at least 4 inches shorter - easily. And it's not like either Tua or Haskins have big heels on their dress shoes. At best, he's 5'8" and change.
Tua is listed at 6'1". I think he's closer to 6' but let's give him 6'1".
In that photo, Murray is at least 4 inches shorter - easily. And it's not like either Tua or Haskins have big heels on their dress shoes. At best, he's 5'8" and change.
but in the photos I've seen of him and Mayfield it doesn't look like there's that big of a height discrepancy (although it may be misleading given the angles, especially in the second photo). We'll find out soon enough.
Tua is listed at 6'1". I think he's closer to 6' but let's give him 6'1".
In that photo, Murray is at least 4 inches shorter - easily. And it's not like either Tua or Haskins have big heels on their dress shoes. At best, he's 5'8"
Tua is not wearing flats in that photo
I meant that TUa is wearing flats and has a lift in that photo.
but what do we think of Tyree Jackson from Buffalo?
He's basically the opposite of Murray...6'7", 245. Looks like he can throw the ball from here to the moon, and can move a little bit.
The other guy that's intriguing, if you go by the Parcells rules of starting at least 30 games and winning at least 23, is Brett Rypien. A 38-12 record as a starter is pretty damn impressive.
but in the photos I've seen of him and Mayfield it doesn't look like there's that big of a height discrepancy (although it may be misleading given the angles, especially in the second photo). We'll find out soon enough.
In that first photo, Mayfield has no helmet, Murray has a helmet. You don't think that makes Murray appear taller?
but what do we think of Tyree Jackson from Buffalo?
He's basically the opposite of Murray...6'7", 245. Looks like he can throw the ball from here to the moon, and can move a little bit.
The other guy that's intriguing, if you go by the Parcells rules of starting at least 30 games and winning at least 23, is Brett Rypien. A 38-12 record as a starter is pretty damn impressive.
Jackson at times looked like the Cam Newton of the MAC. Looked great running by and through MAC defenders. Not sure if that would work at NFL speed. But he does have a plus arm. And he looks like a heck of an athlete. Interesting, project type.
NFL hasn't been kind, however, to really tall QBs. They tend to have a big hitting zone for defenders.
Cam Newton has played 8 seasons
twostepgiants : 7:43 pm : link : reply
And missed a handful of games. Thats remarkable
Most QBs will miss significant time over their careers at some point no matter pocket passer or runner
Tom Brady
Peyton Manning
Dan Marino
Vinny Testaverde
Joe Montana
All have missed full seasons due to injury
Eli Mannings iron man streak was notable because it was rare, not the norm. QBs get hurt and miss games.
Of course pocket passers still get injured, but running QB's have a really difficult time staying healthy. You still don't seem to understand that a scrambler vs. a runner makes a huge difference and is a huge difference. Try to name a running QB who had an Ironman streak. Meanwhile, you can name a lot of scrambling QB's who stayed relatively healthy, whether it be Tarkenton, Favre, Archie Manning, Wilson, etc.
Cam Newton's effectiveness and health over his career has diminished because of the amount of hits he has taken and he's been advised to stay in the pocket as much as possible.
It's almost as if you are dismissing that Murray is likely to get hurt. He would be the smallest, lightest QB to play. Let that sink in for awhile.
But part of what's made Newton effective is his rushing
He has 58 TDs rushing. Carolina's been really good in short yardage and goal line since he's been a part of their running game. He also isn't the greatest passer...but his running ability helps keep defenses honest and create throwing lanes.
Durability matters, I agree. But there's a tipping point at which you make the player far less effective. In Newton's case, if you take away his running threat and make him strictly a pocket passer he probably isn't a starting QB in the NFL.
And in 8 years I believe he's only missed 6 games. I'm not the biggest Newton fan in the world, but his mobility makes him a problem.
First game I was like who the hell is that. Kinda soured on him the more I saw of him, but he is an interesting development prospect. He seems kinda slow through his progressions, but he has a huge arm and is pretty accurate. Definitely helps he had NFL talent on the outside in the MAC.
That picture where they are both throwing next to each other
you can just see Mayfield has a much bigger frame through his upper body. Murray is pretty thick through the legs though. I agree with arc that its not a remote thrower. Also agree that he is going to be a guy that makes headlines early, but Haskins is the ten year starter. However, with how valuable having rookie qbs that outperform their contracts Murray may be the more valuable pick.
Tua is listed at 6'1". I think he's closer to 6' but let's give him 6'1".
In that photo, Murray is at least 4 inches shorter - easily. And it's not like either Tua or Haskins have big heels on their dress shoes. At best, he's 5'8" and change.
Tua is not wearing flats in that photo
dress shoes have about 3/4 heel. they all are wearing dress shoes. Kyler looks tiny.
I believe Kylar Murray is an absolute stud and the right QB at the right time and will form an incredible trio with Odell and Barkley that could legendary.
You have the risk of wasting a first rounder on a guy who will choose to play baseball.
Read that article posted in another thread last night with interviews with Murray's high school teammates, coaches, colleges teammates, etc.
It seemed very clear Murray has no interest in doing the minor league circuit and playing in front of paltry crowds. The guy gets a huge rush - who wouldn't, obviously - playing in front of big crowds. That's really important to Murray. So unless the A's/Bean guarantee him an instant starting role in the Bigs, I don't see Murray going back.
That makes him less than half an inch smaller then Wilson. Wilson has been very effective in this league and qualifies as a franchise QB.
I think Murray is more talented than Wilson when he entered the League.
Height might be able to be justified away.
But his size is a concern....as far durability goes
Just look at Russell Wilson. He is built differently than Kyler Murray. He's much thicker and more built.
And yes, Murray can also add weight - but it's easier said than done and we don't necessarily know if 15-20+ lbs would make a difference in Murray's game either for the better or worse.
Murray is listed at 194 lbs and is 21 years old.
Neither were true. Darnold & Allen the bigger "built" guys were the ones hurt
Weight being a protecter vs injury is a theory. Murray has a cannon arm and is super fast, he doesnt need to add weight for skill purposes.
That makes him less than half an inch smaller then Wilson. Wilson has been very effective in this league and qualifies as a franchise QB.
I think Murray is more talented than Wilson when he entered the League.
With all due respect, it's the OU SID.
Height might be able to be justified away.
But his size is a concern....as far durability goes
That's a big concern if he's running from the pocket and gets nailed by an NFL-sized defender.
Favre, Young did pretty well.
Theyve missed games but have been incredibly successful
Any QB can get hurt. Pocket QBs get hurt. Aikman, Palmer, Montana all hurt alot. Brady, Marino, Testaverde all missed full seasons.
Phil Simms was always hurt
I just pointed out how people worried about Rosen and injuries. A traditional pocket passer.
And Murray isnt a "scrambler" who runs around trying to "buy time". He runs. There is a difference.
Not saying he's a sure thing, but dismissing him on his size is missing a huge part of the picture IMO.
Favre, Young did pretty well.
Theyve missed games but have been incredibly successful
Any QB can get hurt. Pocket QBs get hurt. Aikman, Palmer, Montana all hurt alot. Brady, Marino, Testaverde all missed full seasons.
Phil Simms was always hurt
I just pointed out how people worried about Rosen and injuries. A traditional pocket passer.
And Murray isnt a "scrambler" who runs around trying to "buy time". He runs. There is a difference.
Didn't say they didn't work out did I? What I am saying is that everybody is all about these mobile QBs but not being honest when it comes to them.
Obviously, Big Ben and Rodgers were worth their picks and are going to the HoF. What I am saying is they suffer unnecessary injuries and that kills seasons. Look at Big Ben going to the locker room this year and they missed the playoffs by one game. Look at the last 2 years of Rodgers with getting injured. Their seasons are fucked.
Wentz had a great year last year but he still has a lot left to prove. He has had two serious injuries the last 2 years. Philly's season was saved both years by Foles. That is not the norm.
If you can guarantee super bowls like PIT and GB got with their QBs then awesome but it is basically a 100% chance at least 1 season if not more will be ruined when your QB goes down. And the risk is way higher with these running QBs. This isn't to say a pocket passer will not get injured because they do but not at the same rate. Amd lets look at who is in the final 4, Brady, Brees, Goff, and Mahomes. Now, Goff and Mahomes can make plays outside the pocket but these are primarily guys who stay in the pocket until forced out rather than just move around to move around.
Despite what he almost certainly will tell NFL teams at the Combine, in good faith, about his love of football and his intention to make it his full-time career, the fact remains that he can change his mind and walk away at any time.
Tampa Bay took Bo Jackson with the first overall pick in 1986. He never played for them. He re-entered the draft the following year and wasn't selected until the seventh round, by the Raiders.
The chances of Dave Gettleman using the sixth overall pick on Kyler Murray are approaching zero.
And lets not act like we are in the position we are in because we are a backward thinking franchise. We are in this position because we missed on multiple picks. We didn't go with the safe picks. We went with stupid picks. We tried being forward thinking by going with McAdoo and his shitty ass WCO which wasn't a fit at all. Now everybody is all up Gettleman's ass because it wasn't fixed in one offseason. Give the guy a chance before we label him based off of Reese's tenure.
Not to mention he will have WAY more endorsement opportunities as an NFL quarterback than he would in MLB, even if he became one of the best players in baseball. The popularity between the sports is not comparable, virtually every sports fan in America knows every NFL QB, a comparably small subset has any knowledge of MLB players and even then we are only talking about the top few guys in the league. Baseball is a much less popular sport, its a regional sport really. I dont think anyone outside of New York gives a shit about Aaron Judge or Jacob DeGrom, but everyone knows Darnold, Eli, Saquon, Beckham.
I dont think baseball even has a true star player with a national profile at the moment. If you make it in the NFL its a much bigger deal.
They have every incentive to tell truth
If you didnt know it is Sports Information Department. Their entire purpose is Media Relations.
They actually came out and issued a statement with his exact height. They didnt have to do that. They coukd have just let people go off their media guide and if its wrong claim it came from elsewhere. They instead claimed responsibility.
They know the truth will be known at the Combine. They cant hide him being 5-8 or 5-7.
If they have lied they will destroy all of their credibility with their media contacts.
I have worked in a D1 Sports Information Dept before.
I bet Murray will measure exactly what they said just as Baker did.
But go ahead, use an internet photo to judge
To comp. Josh Allen got a fully guaranteed 4 yr 21 mil desl with a 13 mil signing bonus at the 7 pick
Im sure he cant wait to play for the Midland Rockhounds or the Stockton Ports.
To comp. Josh Allen got a fully guaranteed 4 yr 21 mil desl with a 13 mil signing bonus at the 7 pick
Im sure he cant wait to play for the Midland Rockhounds or the Stockton Ports.
It is just one of the questions. I have seen players get injured and try switching sports. It doesn't have to be an injury. It could be any adversity. It will always weigh on his mind whether he made the right decision or even if he succeeds at football whether or not he would have been successful at baseball. Also, there is a rumor he is trying to squeeze money out of Oakland or whoever drafted him. You cannot deny there is risk. And because of that he isn't worth the pick imo and you can bet your house that Gettleman would not take that risk at 6 either.
As long as we're splitting hairs, Wilson was actually 5-10 5/8 at combine.
That's why he gets rounded to 5-11 in the NFL.com database.
If he had been 5-10 3/8, would have been rounded to 5-10.
Doubt he would and even so, its not like hes a pitcher.
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Even if he splits time, that's a lot of mileage on one arm.
Doubt he would and even so, its not like hes a pitcher.
Not a problem if he plays RB or CB 16 games, then plays baseball...but playing QB, throwing 500+ passes for 16 games, and then playing maybe 90+ games of baseball? That's a lot of wear and tear.
Height might be able to be justified away.
But his size is a concern....as far durability goes
He weighed 204 at the combine
That makes him less than half an inch smaller then Wilson. Wilson has been very effective in this league and qualifies as a franchise QB.
I think Murray is more talented than Wilson when he entered the League.
So you just look at height. Forget the fact Wilson is built like a running back. Hes probably about 225. Hes easily 25lb heavier than Murray and probably more. Not saying Murray wont make it but frame means more than height if we are talking longevity.
Sorry. Too much common sense for the now psychotic Murray fans. And as for Wilson how much have they won since their D had declined and Lynch left. Wilson is a very good player but people talk like he's Won as Much as Brady. Maybe he's the NFL version of Mugsy Bogues. If I'm not risking the # 6 on that. His skill set is insane. His physical size playing football is legitimately a counterweight to his skill.
He also Got stuffed by Bama when it mattered. The NFL is fillled w defenses much better than Bama. He's going to see more sophisticated schemes than what he saw in th Big 12. No way for me. But Finding rational thought on those sold is not happening
There is a difference. One keeps the QB healthy against 300+ pound DL's, LB's who are delivering blows with fierce impact and Safeties who still launch themselves at ball carriers.
One of the reasons Wilson is so effective is because he scrambles to throw. Being a running QB is not a positive in the NFL.
I don't see it. Kid is a very exciting player, but I would see him as as an effective third down "wildcat" type option. Given 2 inches and 20 extra pounds, yes I could see it. But he has a tiny frame (think of all the people fretting over Rosen last year at 6'4" and 226 as too slight).
USA Today Mock - ( New Window )
Forward a year and it was Josh Allen who missed games and not Rosen due to injury.
Or you can simply look at "Iron Man" Eli Manning who was considered thin compared to "Big Ben", who as this thread pointed out was oft injured. Or even Philip Rivers who has built his own iton man streak despite people predicting elbow or Arm issues due to his throwing motions
These things are unpredictable
Kyler Murray has Zero injury history despite playing two sports at college at a high level.
Why did allen get hurt vs. Rosen? Not because of unpredictability, b ut because Allen left the pocket purposely to run many more times than Rosen.
It again calls into question why you would think Murray being a "runner" is better than him being a "scrambler". Runners get hurt, even if they are big.
Murray will be facing defenses that will have players only sightly slower than him who will deliver massive hits.
This. Wilson avoids injury because he has a fantastic feel for the game and knows when to get down or run out of bounds. He doesn't take unnecessary hits going for an extra yard or two.
The 10-20 lbs he'd have on Murray are irrelevant for his ability to stay healthy. There are plenty of similar QBs with 10-20 lbs on Wilson that are constantly injured or had their careers ruined because they didn't have the same ability to avoid the hits. Does Murray have that innate ability?
I don't see it. Kid is a very exciting player, but I would see him as as an effective third down "wildcat" type option. Given 2 inches and 20 extra pounds, yes I could see it. But he has a tiny frame (think of all the people fretting over Rosen last year at 6'4" and 226 as too slight). USA Today Mock - ( New Window )
It has nothing to do with size. It was Rosen's body. He seems brittle. Drew Brees is 6'0" 205lbs and has played 17 years in the league and only missed one start due to injury. Eli Manning is about the same size as Rosen and seems indestructible. You can be a 6'7" 260lbs QB and still be injury prone.
I could see them spending a 2nd rounder on him if by some miracle he were there but at 6, with this team in the state its in and the pressure to turn the franchise around quickly - no way.
Wentz did the same.
You can't go on past history. Lamar Jackson didn't have an injury history and missed the end of two games his rookie season.
big Ben is built like a truck and has missed more time than Eli or Rivers combined.
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He isnt a runner hes a scrambler who can run and he avoids hits better than any qb whos ever done it. Whos to say Murray has that intelligence or feel for the game. Wilson is a freak and the above poster who says Wilson is overhyped. What has he done without a defense? He took a dog shit team to the playoffs. Carried the offense without Baldwin for a nice chunk of the season. People predicted them to win 5-6 games
This. Wilson avoids injury because he has a fantastic feel for the game and knows when to get down or run out of bounds. He doesn't take unnecessary hits going for an extra yard or two.
The 10-20 lbs he'd have on Murray are irrelevant for his ability to stay healthy. There are plenty of similar QBs with 10-20 lbs on Wilson that are constantly injured or had their careers ruined because they didn't have the same ability to avoid the hits. Does Murray have that innate ability?
The height/weight ratio matters, though.
If a QB is 210 but he's also 6'6".... that's a very wiry frame.
Darren Sproles came up in this conversation in a different thread and the argument was "well, Sproles has been able to take hits in the NFL for over a decade, why can't Murray?"
Sproles weighs around 190, but he's also 5'6". His center of gravity is SO low and he's built like a mini truck for a guy his height. His body is stockier and able to withstand more contact than the guy who outweighs him by 20lbs, but is nearly a foot taller.
It's similar with Wilson. He's short, but his build is very stout. It's also true that he's as good as you'll see in terms of being smart and avoiding big hits.
With Murray, it's going to be very hard for him to deliver NFL strikes out of the pocket. A lot of passes are going to get knocked down, and he's not going to be able to see the field well.
For Murray to succeed in the NFL, he has to go to a team willing to use tons of spread concepts - and he has to be out in space a lot.
My issue with Kyler Murray is simple...
I think you need to play a certain way with him for him to be effective, and I think playing that way will get him injured before long. That's not a dilemma I want to be faced with when I draft a QB.
Allen is a 6'5" 240 lb QB built like a tree.
And he hurt the ulnar nerve of his throwing arm
And he didn't do it by running, scrambling etc
There are alot more to player injuries than size, frame, running vs pocket, etc
Kylar Murray has zero injury history in 2 sports
I really just like Haskins more and think he has more of what we should be looking for from an NFL QB.
Murray seems too gadgety for me. I can't shake the feeling that he'll be one of those guys who excites everyone early in his career and makes dazzling plays and has everyone talking about "revolutionizing" the QB position, etc, etc.. only for him to get hurt or for it to stop being effective in short order.
When I look at Haskins, I see a guy who has staying power in this league. Of course, anyone can get hurt - but Haskins can stand in the pocket and deliver. Murray isn't going to be able to play that way.
My guess is Murray is the guy who makes the early headlines, but Haskins is the guy who becomes the 10 year starter.
I really just like Haskins more and think he has more of what we should be looking for from an NFL QB.
Murray seems too gadgety for me. I can't shake the feeling that he'll be one of those guys who excites everyone early in his career and makes dazzling plays and has everyone talking about "revolutionizing" the QB position, etc, etc.. only for him to get hurt or for it to stop being effective in short order.
When I look at Haskins, I see a guy who has staying power in this league. Of course, anyone can get hurt - but Haskins can stand in the pocket and deliver. Murray isn't going to be able to play that way.
My guess is Murray is the guy who makes the early headlines, but Haskins is the guy who becomes the 10 year starter.
Is Haskins Mobile at all?
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Murray isn't a remote-thrower for me - don't get me wrong. I am just wary of his longevity and any time you have that question with a QB, it's a very risky proposition.
I really just like Haskins more and think he has more of what we should be looking for from an NFL QB.
Murray seems too gadgety for me. I can't shake the feeling that he'll be one of those guys who excites everyone early in his career and makes dazzling plays and has everyone talking about "revolutionizing" the QB position, etc, etc.. only for him to get hurt or for it to stop being effective in short order.
When I look at Haskins, I see a guy who has staying power in this league. Of course, anyone can get hurt - but Haskins can stand in the pocket and deliver. Murray isn't going to be able to play that way.
My guess is Murray is the guy who makes the early headlines, but Haskins is the guy who becomes the 10 year starter.
Is Haskins Mobile at all?
Yes. Nothing like Murray plays - but Haskins can pull the ball down and take off if he needs to. He got smarter with this as the year went on. He's a bigger guy and isn't super fast, but he's not totally stuck in mud.
Several instances where he had a collapsing pocket, found a lane, and took off for a first down.
His mobility is more like Andrew Lucks (without the early career recklessness) than Lamar Jackson's - but he can move when he needs to and will make a couple of plays with his legs.
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In comment 14265367 arcarsenal said:
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Murray isn't a remote-thrower for me - don't get me wrong. I am just wary of his longevity and any time you have that question with a QB, it's a very risky proposition.
I really just like Haskins more and think he has more of what we should be looking for from an NFL QB.
Murray seems too gadgety for me. I can't shake the feeling that he'll be one of those guys who excites everyone early in his career and makes dazzling plays and has everyone talking about "revolutionizing" the QB position, etc, etc.. only for him to get hurt or for it to stop being effective in short order.
When I look at Haskins, I see a guy who has staying power in this league. Of course, anyone can get hurt - but Haskins can stand in the pocket and deliver. Murray isn't going to be able to play that way.
My guess is Murray is the guy who makes the early headlines, but Haskins is the guy who becomes the 10 year starter.
Is Haskins Mobile at all?
Yes. Nothing like Murray plays - but Haskins can pull the ball down and take off if he needs to. He got smarter with this as the year went on. He's a bigger guy and isn't super fast, but he's not totally stuck in mud.
Several instances where he had a collapsing pocket, found a lane, and took off for a first down.
His mobility is more like Andrew Lucks (without the early career recklessness) than Lamar Jackson's - but he can move when he needs to and will make a couple of plays with his legs.
Thats good to know, thanks. Anything like Romo mobile?
And then if successful, they sign a massive cap killing deal for years
This team has 2 generational players on offense NOW
Odell is 26 years old
Barkley is a 21 year old RB
This team really needs to maximixe their peak together which will be in the next 5 years, maybe 7 years. Certainly not 10.
If Kylar Murray does that, isnt that worth it?
And then if successful, they sign a massive cap killing deal for years
This team has 2 generational players on offense NOW
Odell is 26 years old
Barkley is a 21 year old RB
This team really needs to maximixe their peak together which will be in the next 5 years, maybe 7 years. Certainly not 10.
If Kylar Murray does that, isnt that worth it?
Outdated? Drew Brees and Tom Brady are two of the 4 QB's left right now. Both guys are 40. They'll gladly disagree with you.
I also don't have any faith in Murray even being effective for 5-7 years. If I did, I'd be more willing to take him.
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In comment 14265396 Big Blue '56 said:
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In comment 14265367 arcarsenal said:
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Murray isn't a remote-thrower for me - don't get me wrong. I am just wary of his longevity and any time you have that question with a QB, it's a very risky proposition.
I really just like Haskins more and think he has more of what we should be looking for from an NFL QB.
Murray seems too gadgety for me. I can't shake the feeling that he'll be one of those guys who excites everyone early in his career and makes dazzling plays and has everyone talking about "revolutionizing" the QB position, etc, etc.. only for him to get hurt or for it to stop being effective in short order.
When I look at Haskins, I see a guy who has staying power in this league. Of course, anyone can get hurt - but Haskins can stand in the pocket and deliver. Murray isn't going to be able to play that way.
My guess is Murray is the guy who makes the early headlines, but Haskins is the guy who becomes the 10 year starter.
Is Haskins Mobile at all?
Yes. Nothing like Murray plays - but Haskins can pull the ball down and take off if he needs to. He got smarter with this as the year went on. He's a bigger guy and isn't super fast, but he's not totally stuck in mud.
Several instances where he had a collapsing pocket, found a lane, and took off for a first down.
His mobility is more like Andrew Lucks (without the early career recklessness) than Lamar Jackson's - but he can move when he needs to and will make a couple of plays with his legs.
Thats good to know, thanks. Anything like Romo mobile?
Romo was more... "slippery"
He had a sneaky elusiveness to him despite not being very fast or even quick. One of those guys you'd think you have dead to rights and he'd wiggle out of it somehow and buy time.
Haskins stands tall in the pocket and wants to throw the football, but when the pocket collapses, he has a pretty good feel and will either sense where the pocket is moving or get out of it and get what he can with his legs.
His instincts seemed to get better as the year went on as far as taking off and running.
I see some Mitch Trubisky in Haskins.
Trubisky, like Haskins, was only a 1 year starter. He's doing a lot of his learning in the NFL and got quite a bit better between year 1 and year 2.
Haskins hasn't taken an NFL snap yet. "Haskins is better than Trubisky" is not a provable point at this juncture, it's an opinion stated as a fact without any actual evidence or proof.
I'm obviously all aboard the Haskins train. But to say he's already better than a guy who just went 11-3 as a starter, led his team to a division title and made very large strides between his first and second seasons is a little too aggressive. Haskins has to actually take an NFL snap before we make proclamations like those.
Better prospect? I could level with that a little more - but still, Trubisky was a pretty sought-after prospect considering he was just a 1 year starter and it was for a smaller program.
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Trubisky isn't what the media make him out to be. Vegas didn't see a ton of drop off between Trubisky and Daniels. Pretty much tells you what you need to know.
Trubisky, like Haskins, was only a 1 year starter. He's doing a lot of his learning in the NFL and got quite a bit better between year 1 and year 2.
Haskins hasn't taken an NFL snap yet. "Haskins is better than Trubisky" is not a provable point at this juncture, it's an opinion stated as a fact without any actual evidence or proof.
I'm obviously all aboard the Haskins train. But to say he's already better than a guy who just went 11-3 as a starter, led his team to a division title and made very large strides between his first and second seasons is a little too aggressive. Haskins has to actually take an NFL snap before we make proclamations like those.
Better prospect? I could level with that a little more - but still, Trubisky was a pretty sought-after prospect considering he was just a 1 year starter and it was for a smaller program.
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The similarities are in them both being guys who can make all of the throws, both being guys who need to work on their deep ball a bit, and lack of experience. I didn't say Haskins mirrors Trubisky - I just see a few similarities. Trubisky moves a bit better and has better athleticism - but he's still a pass-first QB who was drafted for his arm.
Scouts still think experience matters. We can diminish it and pretend it doesn't, but in terms of learning progressions with real pressure, dealing with real game scenarios, etc. 7 on 7's just don't do it. These guys need actual reps and a lot of people were surprised that Haskins wasn't going back for another year to get more experience under his belt.
I still think he can swing it at the NFL level as a 1 year starter - but I expect a learning curve and early struggles. He won't hit the ground running the same way DeShaun Watson did last year. Watson was able to play more of an improv game because he's more athletic and more reliant on his legs. Haskins is going to be a more traditional passer.
You're right about those things not simulating actual gameplay, but QBs are inundated with advanced passing schemes and concepts at the high school level now. A huge component of development of QB's is understanding the schemes and concepts and making the right reads. You can do that in 7 on 7. The NFL is doing a lot of what is happening in the college game as well so the learning curve isn't as steep.
QB isn't this scarce commodity it once was. Trubisky is a guy that is coming out every year out of college football. And clearly you can win with him. I feel like Haskins is worthy of the 6 pick because he offers you a much a higher ceiling. Admittedly, his bust potential is probably higher as well because we really don't know what he looks like under pressure. Maybe he folds like a cheap suit, but personally I don't get that Sam Bradford feel from him.
And then if successful, they sign a massive cap killing deal for years
This team has 2 generational players on offense NOW
Odell is 26 years old
Barkley is a 21 year old RB
This team really needs to maximixe their peak together which will be in the next 5 years, maybe 7 years. Certainly not 10.
If Kylar Murray does that, isnt that worth it?
And if he lasts as long as RGIII? How did that work out for the Skins?
1 be too lofty in my comparison
2 compare an African-American QB to another African-American QB
Despite 1, 2, the way he throws the ball in terms of throwing form, perfectly placed spiral (not only for the completion but easy catch-ability and placement) reminds me of Warren Moon. To be clear, I will not go as far as saying he will have Moon's HOF type career, but just in terms of how he throws it, that's who I see.
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QBs drafted this high are on a very reasonable team friendly deal allowing for teams to really have a chance to build the roster and compete
And then if successful, they sign a massive cap killing deal for years
This team has 2 generational players on offense NOW
Odell is 26 years old
Barkley is a 21 year old RB
This team really needs to maximixe their peak together which will be in the next 5 years, maybe 7 years. Certainly not 10.
If Kylar Murray does that, isnt that worth it?
And if he lasts as long as RGIII? How did that work out for the Skins?
RG3:
1 was in a gimmick offense that resulted in short term success and injury
2 despite being athletic, was among the worst I've ever seen in terms of feeling the rush, I've never seen a guy get hit that hard so often (both in and out of the pocket) and I attribute that to a severe lack of awareness
"Hes a very elusive runner, and you rarely see a defender get a clean shot at him."
Thats from an article ive linked below on how Murray avoids injury
Article - ( New Window )
This is actually right.
Technically, I think Murray has a terrific, economical delivery. He can really whip through it to get some real velocity, and he can apply the touch. The real beauty? He can execute that in or out of the pocket. Haskins needs time, which he was afforded by many "Mississippis" behind the OSU Berlin Wall.
Lock throws the ball better than Haskins, too, btw.
I know it's been said, but it bears repeating - if Murray was 6' or taller the race to get to the top draft spot would be a show.
1 be too lofty in my comparison
2 compare an African-American QB to another African-American QB
Despite 1, 2, the way he throws the ball in terms of throwing form, perfectly placed spiral (not only for the completion but easy catch-ability and placement) reminds me of Warren Moon. To be clear, I will not go as far as saying he will have Moon's HOF type career, but just in terms of how he throws it, that's who I see.
When I watch Haskins I see Roethlisberger.
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I want to be careful and not do two things:
1 be too lofty in my comparison
2 compare an African-American QB to another African-American QB
Despite 1, 2, the way he throws the ball in terms of throwing form, perfectly placed spiral (not only for the completion but easy catch-ability and placement) reminds me of Warren Moon. To be clear, I will not go as far as saying he will have Moon's HOF type career, but just in terms of how he throws it, that's who I see.
When I watch Haskins I see Roethlisberger.
Ben's differentiating attribute has been that he's an absolute bear to bring down and that he's surprisingly nifty and both extend plays and then use him elite arm strength down field. I haven't seen that from Haskins yet, but I don't doubt that he's got some "escapability" in him. Clearly, he has the arm strength to be on par with anyone.
twostepgiants : 4:20 pm : link : reply
With a 4 mil risk on it
"Hes a very elusive runner, and you rarely see a defender get a clean shot at him."
Thats from an article ive linked below on how Murray avoids injury
He will be in the NFL. Throw a lot of the techniques from college out the window. He'll be a running QB going up against guys much larger and stronger than him that are only slightly slower.
Sproles was mentioned above. He's a really good example of a smaller guy, and he's lost almost 4 seasons due to injuries, and he not only has a lower center of gravity, he too made moves that avoided injury. Look at it this way, even if you avoid injury 99% of the time, a guy running is going to hit 100 a lot quicker than a guy in the pocket.
You really can't be seriously acting as if there shouldn't be injury concerns here.
And yes, if Murray was over 6' tall, he'd be the consensus top pick. He's not over 6 feet tall, and he's not going to get any taller. So, that's kind of a worthless point to make.
I can see it now. Murray is going to be the QB that everyone goes wild over, falls in love with the "wow" factor, falls back into the "revolutionary" trap with, and then it's going to fall apart before he even gets to the end of his rookie deal. I'm not sure he'll even make it halfway as a full time NFL QB.
I'm telling you guys - trying to build an offense around a guy who isn't going to be able to stand in the pocket and be a pocket QB is going to be risky business. You're going to have to get Murray in space a LOT for him to see the field the way he needs to. Tons of spread concepts.
Murray can try to stand back there and be a pocket passer, but he won't see the field well and a lot of passes will get knocked down at the LOS just like they did when Flutie played.
There is a lot of risk to taking him. More than any interesting QB prospect maybe my lifetime. The NFL is in such a state of flux with what works that he may be the guy that really breaks the size barrier.
I love the guy, but still think those size metrics matter.
I think he's got an incredible package of quickness and speed. That will undoubtedly work in the NFL. The problem is NFL players will catch him - eventually - and they will pound that diminutive frame.
Ben's differentiating attribute has been that he's an absolute bear to bring down and that he's surprisingly nifty and both extend plays and then use him elite arm strength down field. I haven't seen that from Haskins yet, but I don't doubt that he's got some "escapability" in him. Clearly, he has the arm strength to be on par with anyone.
I wasn't suggesting that Haskins was tough to bring down like Roethlisberger. They both stand tall in the pocket and they both have sneaky athleticism. Nobody will confuse Haskins with Murray but Haskins can run and buy time when needed. You expect a statue like Brady or Peyton when looking at Haskins but then he will surprise you and run or scramble to buy time. Haskins can also get rid of the ball quickly and he doesn't panic when his pocket collapses.
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Ben's differentiating attribute has been that he's an absolute bear to bring down and that he's surprisingly nifty and both extend plays and then use him elite arm strength down field. I haven't seen that from Haskins yet, but I don't doubt that he's got some "escapability" in him. Clearly, he has the arm strength to be on par with anyone.
I wasn't suggesting that Haskins was tough to bring down like Roethlisberger. They both stand tall in the pocket and they both have sneaky athleticism. Nobody will confuse Haskins with Murray but Haskins can run and buy time when needed. You expect a statue like Brady or Peyton when looking at Haskins but then he will surprise you and run or scramble to buy time. Haskins can also get rid of the ball quickly and he doesn't panic when his pocket collapses.
Yep, I think we agree. There is a lot to like with this kid.
He's been one of the more durable running QB's and even he has lost time and has been urged to stay in the pocket more often
Tua is listed at 6'1". I think he's closer to 6' but let's give him 6'1".
In that photo, Murray is at least 4 inches shorter - easily. And it's not like either Tua or Haskins have big heels on their dress shoes. At best, he's 5'8" and change.
Video of hit - ( New Window )
Tua is listed at 6'1". I think he's closer to 6' but let's give him 6'1".
In that photo, Murray is at least 4 inches shorter - easily. And it's not like either Tua or Haskins have big heels on their dress shoes. At best, he's 5'8" and change.
Tua is not wearing flats in that photo
Most QBs will miss significant time over their careers at some point no matter pocket passer or runner
Tom Brady
Peyton Manning
Dan Marino
Vinny Testaverde
Joe Montana
All have missed full seasons due to injury
Eli Mannings iron man streak was notable because it was rare, not the norm. QBs get hurt and miss games.
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I posted that photo last night.
Tua is listed at 6'1". I think he's closer to 6' but let's give him 6'1".
In that photo, Murray is at least 4 inches shorter - easily. And it's not like either Tua or Haskins have big heels on their dress shoes. At best, he's 5'8"
Tua is not wearing flats in that photo
I meant that TUa is wearing flats and has a lift in that photo.
Photos are a terrible way to judge height
He's basically the opposite of Murray...6'7", 245. Looks like he can throw the ball from here to the moon, and can move a little bit.
The other guy that's intriguing, if you go by the Parcells rules of starting at least 30 games and winning at least 23, is Brett Rypien. A 38-12 record as a starter is pretty damn impressive.
In that first photo, Mayfield has no helmet, Murray has a helmet. You don't think that makes Murray appear taller?
He's basically the opposite of Murray...6'7", 245. Looks like he can throw the ball from here to the moon, and can move a little bit.
The other guy that's intriguing, if you go by the Parcells rules of starting at least 30 games and winning at least 23, is Brett Rypien. A 38-12 record as a starter is pretty damn impressive.
Jackson at times looked like the Cam Newton of the MAC. Looked great running by and through MAC defenders. Not sure if that would work at NFL speed. But he does have a plus arm. And he looks like a heck of an athlete. Interesting, project type.
NFL hasn't been kind, however, to really tall QBs. They tend to have a big hitting zone for defenders.
twostepgiants : 7:43 pm : link : reply
And missed a handful of games. Thats remarkable
Most QBs will miss significant time over their careers at some point no matter pocket passer or runner
Tom Brady
Peyton Manning
Dan Marino
Vinny Testaverde
Joe Montana
All have missed full seasons due to injury
Eli Mannings iron man streak was notable because it was rare, not the norm. QBs get hurt and miss games.
Of course pocket passers still get injured, but running QB's have a really difficult time staying healthy. You still don't seem to understand that a scrambler vs. a runner makes a huge difference and is a huge difference. Try to name a running QB who had an Ironman streak. Meanwhile, you can name a lot of scrambling QB's who stayed relatively healthy, whether it be Tarkenton, Favre, Archie Manning, Wilson, etc.
Cam Newton's effectiveness and health over his career has diminished because of the amount of hits he has taken and he's been advised to stay in the pocket as much as possible.
It's almost as if you are dismissing that Murray is likely to get hurt. He would be the smallest, lightest QB to play. Let that sink in for awhile.
Durability matters, I agree. But there's a tipping point at which you make the player far less effective. In Newton's case, if you take away his running threat and make him strictly a pocket passer he probably isn't a starting QB in the NFL.
And in 8 years I believe he's only missed 6 games. I'm not the biggest Newton fan in the world, but his mobility makes him a problem.
I'll repeat, Murray would be one of the shortest and lightest QB's ever.
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I posted that photo last night.
Tua is listed at 6'1". I think he's closer to 6' but let's give him 6'1".
In that photo, Murray is at least 4 inches shorter - easily. And it's not like either Tua or Haskins have big heels on their dress shoes. At best, he's 5'8" and change.
Tua is not wearing flats in that photo
dress shoes have about 3/4 heel. they all are wearing dress shoes. Kyler looks tiny.
I'll repeat, Murray would be one of the shortest and lightest QB's ever.
True, but he's also entering the NFL as a Heisman winner. Clearly his size wasn't an issue in college.
Look I'm not saying we've got to go get the guy. I'm wondering if the guy can play in the NFL.
What if his size scares everyone away and he drops to our pick in round two? Is he worth taking a shot?
It isn't just a singular risk.
You have the risk of wasting a first rounder on a guy who will choose to play baseball.
You have the risk of taking the smallest, lightest starting QB.
A running QB will not thrive in the NFL for an extended period. It isn't sustainable.
You have the risk of wasting a first rounder on a guy who will choose to play baseball.
Read that article posted in another thread last night with interviews with Murray's high school teammates, coaches, colleges teammates, etc.
It seemed very clear Murray has no interest in doing the minor league circuit and playing in front of paltry crowds. The guy gets a huge rush - who wouldn't, obviously - playing in front of big crowds. That's really important to Murray. So unless the A's/Bean guarantee him an instant starting role in the Bigs, I don't see Murray going back.