NFT: Mets Chat

And be the clubhouse leader.

chart (if it's mean to be in order) is wrong.

I believe its:

LF: Conforto, Nimmo
CF: Lagares, Broxton
RF: Nimmo, Conforto

I don't think McNeil is ahead of Nimmo or Conforto.

I also believe BVW is on record as saying most of McNeil's playing time will be in the OF.

I also think Dom Smith gets a chance to win the 1B job. I don't think he does if Frazier is still on the team, because of $$$, but I think he gets a shot at it.

especially for those of us who are fairly casual baseball fans. Can you lay out a similar summary for the pitching?

clearly Frazier is starting at 1b to open. More interesting will be the decision if he starts hot. Alonso needs to stay down for 12 team games minimum but if Frazier is hitting they aren't moving him to the bench.

In comment 14266227 pjcas18 said:

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chart (if it's mean to be in order) is wrong. I believe its: LF: Conforto, Nimmo CF: Lagares, Broxton RF: Nimmo, Conforto I don't think McNeil is ahead of Nimmo or Conforto. I also believe BVW is on record as saying most of McNeil's playing time will be in the OF. I also think Dom Smith gets a chance to win the 1B job. I don't think he does if Frazier is still on the team, because of $$$, but I think he gets a shot at it.

Frazier is almost certainly staying. Brodie went out of his way to talk up his versatility, value in the clubhouse and the communication they had about adding Lowrie. I'm not saying he's here for the entire season hook or crook but he's almost certainly staying. I don't think Dom is even in the equation. They haven't mentioned him a single time while mentioning Alonso and even Cecchini.

McNeil starts over Lagares, no?

I think they need to get as many ABs for McNeil as possible and I'm not sure how if he's not playing LF majority of the time?

Cano, Lowrie and Conforto are in the lineup every day.

Davis leaves Houston where he didn't get a huge shot, traded to the Mets... down to Syracuse for you JD. Plus side. Positive thing for Davis is he can play the OF so (and I'm obviously not rooting for it) but he only needs 1 of the 4 corners to be dinged or even then deciding the CF bats are so poor that Conforto or Nimmo are headed to CF.

In comment 14266240 Chris684 said:

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McNeil starts over Lagares, no? I think they need to get as many ABs for McNeil as possible and I'm not sure how if he's not playing LF majority of the time? Cano, Lowrie and Conforto are in the lineup every day.

No. Lagares/Broxton are in CF to open the season as of today.

1B Frazier
2b Cano
SS Rosario
3B Lowrie
LF Conforto
CF Lagares/Broxton
RF Nimmo
C Ramos

I was kind of just eye-balling the positional depth as it made the most sense to me.

The starting pitching seems pretty well set with Jake, Thor, Wheeler, Matz and Vargas to open up. I still think they need another back-end insurance policy.

The prominent bullpen pieces are Lugo, Gsellman, Familia and Diaz.

Dan or someone else can tell you more about the bullpen than I can.

don't you? BVW is probably smarter than Sandy in this regard, where the Mets used to downplay player value (like Flores) I think (hope) with BVW they hype up players like the Red Sox do.

Makes them easier to trade.

And if you don't trade them, explains why.

You're covered.

I haven't heard anyone from the Mets mention Smith at all since he left the DWL, but it would make zero sense not to give him a shot in spring training. If he's not in the equation, where is he going to be? Syracuse OF?

Not disagreeing with you but that doesn't make much sense to me given what McNeil did last year.

Jeff McNeil has made 3 career appearances in CF totaling 12 innings. None since 2015. He may see some time out there but they didn't give up 3 prospects for Broxton + paying Lagares 9 million to have McNeil learn CF. It sounds better in a video game than it likely would in reality.

not center, but I hear you.

McnNeil will get plenty of chances.

On a side note, Wilmer Flores signed a one year deal with Arizona

In comment 14266247 pjcas18 said:

Quote:

don't you? BVW is probably smarter than Sandy in this regard, where the Mets used to downplay player value (like Flores) I think (hope) with BVW they hype up players like the Red Sox do. Makes them easier to trade. And if you don't trade them, explains why. You're covered. I haven't heard anyone from the Mets mention Smith at all since he left the DWL, but it would make zero sense not to give him a shot in spring training. If he's not in the equation, where is he going to be? Syracuse OF?

Smith is expected to see time at 1b/OF in Syracuse. They are treating him like an afterthought. He's not making the team out of ST barring injury. Frazier, TDA, Cano, even McNeil would be options at 1b if need be and of course Alonso.

In comment 14266253 Chris684 said:

Quote:

not center, but I hear you.

No room in LF for McNeil. Conforto and Nimmo are the corners. Now the CF situation could prove to be a total fail and they end up shifting one back to CF but to begin the season it will be up to Mickey to find McNeil AB's.

In comment 14266257 DanMetroMan said:

Quote:

In comment 14266247 pjcas18 said: Quote: don't you? BVW is probably smarter than Sandy in this regard, where the Mets used to downplay player value (like Flores) I think (hope) with BVW they hype up players like the Red Sox do. Makes them easier to trade. And if you don't trade them, explains why. You're covered. I haven't heard anyone from the Mets mention Smith at all since he left the DWL, but it would make zero sense not to give him a shot in spring training. If he's not in the equation, where is he going to be? Syracuse OF? Smith is expected to see time at 1b/OF in Syracuse. They are treating him like an afterthought. He's not making the team out of ST barring injury. Frazier, TDA, Cano, even McNeil would be options at 1b if need be and of course Alonso.

We'll find out soon enough.

26 days until pitchers and catchers, 30 days for position players.

I wonder if Cespedes rides a horse to camp this year.

Brodie was asked about 1b yesterday and Smith wasn't mentioned once. He can't play OF so he adds close to zero value on the bench. His season was an utter disaster capped by being released by his DWL team. He needs a new organization.

4.25 guaranteed. Team option for 2020, 9.75 million total if he's picked up.

In comment 14266269 DanMetroMan said:

Quote:

Brodie was asked about 1b yesterday and Smith wasn't mentioned once. He can't play OF so he adds close to zero value on the bench. His season was an utter disaster capped by being released by his DWL team. He needs a new organization.

Like I said we'll find out soon enough, if he's in NY it makes zero sense to bury him. What they will do and what they should do are different things sometimes. But with the Mets there is often times a big disparity between what they do and what should do.

would do better with an AL team. Surprised no one had more interest than that AZ contract.

His arthritis is probably only going to get worse.

to Colorado for one of their overpaid RP and then signing Pollock would be ideal but I think they are going to hope for the best in CF... pretty terrifying when the OF depth is really, really thin.

even as a throw in or as part of a plawecki type deal, I can't believe his value is that non-existent, but maybe?

I think the depth chart right now is as follows, in order of security of playing time:

2B - Cano / Lowrie
SS - Rosario / Lowrie
C - Ramos / TBD since TDA will likely be rehabbing
3B - Lowrie / Frazier / McNeil
LF/RF - Conforto / Nimmo / Mcneil / Davis (may go to AAA)
CF - Lagares / Broxton / Nimmo
1B - Frazier / McNeil / Davis

That's 12 counting Davis. So possibly 1 more bench spot open for someone like TJR or Guillorme. Perhaps 2 spots open if they decide to send Davis down to Cuse.

Biggest question to me is getting enough AB's for McNeil. On a prorated basis he played as well as anyone in that lineup last year, if he plays that well again it's going to be hard to keep him out which may mean Nimmo back to CF close to full time or keeping Alonso in AAA for longer than expected.

On the pitching staff they are still 2 arms short, maybe 3, but I expect some more invites and at least 1 more MLB signing.

In comment 14266285 DanMetroMan said:

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to Colorado for one of their overpaid RP and then signing Pollock would be ideal but I think they are going to hope for the best in CF... pretty terrifying when the OF depth is really, really thin.

i�de�al
/īˈdē(ə)l/Submit
adjective
1.
satisfying one's conception of what is perfect


Is Pollock really "ideal" in your opinion?

I can think of 2 more "ideal" signings...

I'm having a really hard time with this offseason, I just can't get excited about it.

I know I probably should be...

I think I've become completed jaded due to the disingenuous messaging constantly coming from the Alderson regime.

BVW says the Mets are feeling good... feel they are the class of the division... in other words he's expressing that they are content. He won't acknowledge that there are pieces out there that would make the team better.

Is he:

A) Stupid
B) Playing stupid and still planning to spend a lot more
C) Constrained by budget but, like Alderson, part of his job responsibility is to put lipstick on the pig that is the Mets ridiculous payroll situation and insulate the Wilpons from criticism.

I think we can agree it's probably C

I'm just tired of it...

In comment 14266323 moze1021 said:

Quote:

In comment 14266285 DanMetroMan said: Quote: to Colorado for one of their overpaid RP and then signing Pollock would be ideal but I think they are going to hope for the best in CF... pretty terrifying when the OF depth is really, really thin. i�de�al /īˈdē(ə)l/Submit adjective 1. satisfying one's conception of what is perfect Is Pollock really "ideal" in your opinion? I can think of 2 more "ideal" signings... I'm having a really hard time with this offseason, I just can't get excited about it. I know I probably should be... I think I've become completed jaded due to the disingenuous messaging constantly coming from the Alderson regime. BVW says the Mets are feeling good... feel they are the class of the division... in other words he's expressing that they are content. He won't acknowledge that there are pieces out there that would make the team better. Is he: A) Stupid B) Playing stupid and still planning to spend a lot more C) Constrained by budget but, like Alderson, part of his job responsibility is to put lipstick on the pig that is the Mets ridiculous payroll situation and insulate the Wilpons from criticism. I think we can agree it's probably C I'm just tired of it...

I'm not comfortable relying on Lagares/Broxton so at the right price yes Pollock would be a very nice addition (flaws and all). He's better than both players. Ideally they would sign both Pollock and Ottavino or Ottavino and Keuchel but that's not happening. I would have loved Parker/Holland both came in cheap.

cool shirt but 45 bucks is kind of steep for a regular t shirt
Link - ( New Window )

I guess my question, put more bluntly..

You think Pollock > Harper?

I just thought it was funny you used the word "ideal" on Pollock when Bryce is just chillin waiting for a legit offer...

In comment 14266355 moze1021 said:

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I guess my question, put more bluntly.. You think Pollock > Harper? I just thought it was funny you used the word "ideal" on Pollock when Bryce is just chillin waiting for a legit offer...

Oh. Sorry I misunderstood you. Yes, Harper all day.

I said this once last week I think...

If you start with the condition that the Mets simply can't afford Machado or Harper AND do all the other things they have done...

Then the offseason has been pretty damn good.

The issue is, that condition really really sucks...and therefore I can't call the offseason pretty damn good. Can't even get excited about it.

if BVW is stupid or playing stupid or neither, but we all know #3 is absolutely legit.

Constraints of our plan = budget

Quote:

Michael Mayer ‏ @mikemayerMMO Interesting quote from BVW, "I�ve never operated this offseason to wait and see if a market dropped. In fact, all of our moves have not been market contingent, they�ve been roster contingent � how do these players fit? Can we acquire them within the constraints of our plan?� 8:13 AM - 17 Jan 2019

Doesn�t that lineup have some serious holes? And that outfield is really thin. Once again the Mets will need a lot of things to break right and health to be good.

And every MLB team including the Mets can afford Harper. They are simply choosing not to. Mets fans that are pro owners are strange. There�s no salary cap! And the owners not spending will have zero effect on the prices you pay as a fan.

gets back. I know that its no sure thing. But if we get him back in July, there is going to be a ton of moving pieces.

In comment 14266376 pjcas18 said:

Quote:

if BVW is stupid or playing stupid or neither, but we all know #3 is absolutely legit. Constraints of our plan = budget Quote: Michael Mayer ‏ @mikemayerMMO Interesting quote from BVW, "I�ve never operated this offseason to wait and see if a market dropped. In fact, all of our moves have not been market contingent, they�ve been roster contingent � how do these players fit? Can we acquire them within the constraints of our plan?� 8:13 AM - 17 Jan 2019

In case it hasn�t been obvious by now, he likes to target the best player/fit for the team and aggressively target him. Whether it�s trade or FA. Whether it�s an �overpay�or not. I thing preventing him from coming back to the market when it drops. But a hard lesson learned by Somme FO and agents is Brody is very straight forward, will overpay. But the second you�ve played your cards too hard, he�s not just ready but willing to quickly move on. It�s certainly a refreshing change of pace.

In comment 14266390 CMicks3110 said:

Quote:

gets back. I know that its no sure thing. But if we get him back in July, there is going to be a ton of moving pieces.

He will not be back anytime soon. In fact, Omar made it sound like we may not see him at all.

...

In comment 14266379 TyreeHelmet said:

Quote:

Doesn�t that lineup have some serious holes? And that outfield is really thin. Once again the Mets will need a lot of things to break right and health to be good. And every MLB team including the Mets can afford Harper. They are simply choosing not to. Mets fans that are pro owners are strange. There�s no salary cap! And the owners not spending will have zero effect on the prices you pay as a fan.

OF is a major, major issue. Yes they have McNeil (with limited OF experience) but CF they have 2 major ?? and after that you're looking at Davis, Rajai Davis (38 years old), Gregor Blanco.... prospect wise the Mets OF is completely barren.

.

In comment 14266379 TyreeHelmet said:

Quote:

Doesn�t that lineup have some serious holes? And that outfield is really thin. Once again the Mets will need a lot of things to break right and health to be good. And every MLB team including the Mets can afford Harper. They are simply choosing not to. Mets fans that are pro owners are strange. There�s no salary cap! And the owners not spending will have zero effect on the prices you pay as a fan.

The outfield isn't really all that thin.

Conforto, Nimmo, Lagares, Broxton. Then you have guys that can play the outfield, more really the corners, in McNeil, Dom, J.D. Davis, and T.J. Rivera in a pinch.

Then you have to consider that organizationally the Mets still have Rajai Davis, Gregor Blanco, Rymer Liriano, and Kevin Kaczmarski. A move can be made if necessary, but Nimmo and Conforto's ability to play CF, as well as the aforementioned guys like McNeil that can play in LF, makes these moves unlikely to be necessary.

Further, I think the Mets may, and should, explore Amed Rosario in CF when Gimenez is ready to be promoted.

And you still should have Yoenis Cespedes back hopefully in August for the stretch run.

In terms of the lineup, this is the deepest Mets lineup I can remember.

Nimmo
Conforto
Cano
Ramos
Lowrie
Alonso (Frazier and Dom for two weeks, ok)
Rosario
Lagares or Broxton

And I'll tell you this, Alonso is going to be a hit. Not really any doubt in my mind. He's put up all those numbers in the minors, he's done it against good competition, and the main thing that gives me confidence is that his exit velocities are the highest in the minors. Dude can mash.

And then you have McNeil that is going to plug into that lineup often.

Hopefully, in August our lineup will look like:

CF Nimmo
3B Lowrie / McNeil
2B Cano
LF Cespedes
RF Conforto
1B Alonso
C Ramos
SS Rosario

Sure, there are some 'ifs' there, but it's also entirely plausible.

In comment 14266408 DanMetroMan said:

Quote:

In comment 14266379 TyreeHelmet said: Quote: Doesn�t that lineup have some serious holes? And that outfield is really thin. Once again the Mets will need a lot of things to break right and health to be good. And every MLB team including the Mets can afford Harper. They are simply choosing not to. Mets fans that are pro owners are strange. There�s no salary cap! And the owners not spending will have zero effect on the prices you pay as a fan. OF is a major, major issue. Yes they have McNeil (with limited OF experience) but CF they have 2 major ?? and after that you're looking at Davis, Rajai Davis (38 years old), Gregor Blanco.... prospect wise the Mets OF is completely barren.

If Broxton and Lagares are a combination of failure and injury, you don't even need to worry about Davis and Blanco, just move Nimmo to CF and instill McNeil in left and be done with it. Sure, he has limited OF experience, but that bat more than makes up for it. Worse comes to worse you can still pop Dom out there in LF, or call up Kevin Kaczmarski, who will at minimum play hard.

There's always the option of making a move as well (Frazier?)

In comment 14266401 Shecky said:

Quote:

In comment 14266376 pjcas18 said: Quote: if BVW is stupid or playing stupid or neither, but we all know #3 is absolutely legit. Constraints of our plan = budget Quote: Michael Mayer ‏ @mikemayerMMO Interesting quote from BVW, "I�ve never operated this offseason to wait and see if a market dropped. In fact, all of our moves have not been market contingent, they�ve been roster contingent � how do these players fit? Can we acquire them within the constraints of our plan?� 8:13 AM - 17 Jan 2019 In case it hasn�t been obvious by now, he likes to target the best player/fit for the team and aggressively target him. Whether it�s trade or FA. Whether it�s an �overpay�or not. I thing preventing him from coming back to the market when it drops. But a hard lesson learned by Somme FO and agents is Brody is very straight forward, will overpay. But the second you�ve played your cards too hard, he�s not just ready but willing to quickly move on. It�s certainly a refreshing change of pace.

I don't mind that, but it's kind of hard to look fans in the eye and say Jed Lowrie was a better fit for the Mets than Manny Machado.

Until you add and understand "within the constraints of our plan"

which is what pisses off most Mets fans because it means they don't want to spend on Machado.

OF is insanely thin.

Broxton hasn't hit in 2 years. Dom Smith has been horrendous offensively and is a joke in the OF. TJ Rivera (if he even makes the team) has 13 CAREER appearances in the OF and is 30 years old. Rajai Davis, Gregor Blanco, Rymer Liriano... all have opt-outs (very little chance Rajai Davis at 38 is going to spend much time in Syracuse vs. retiring or going somewhere else) and have been either awful recently (the first 2) or never good (Liriano), Kaczmarski was replaced by... Matt Den Dekker and then removed from the 40 man, that's how high they are on him. It's beyond thin and even they recognize this thus adding both Davis, Blanco, Liriano etc. It's bad.

career wRC+ 59 MLB games... 59 wRC+, now with his 5th organization

Rajai Davis wRC+ the past 2 seasons- 67 (not a typo)

Gregor Blanco- 73 (not a typo)

Keon Broxton 84

Lagares career 85

The top OF prospect in the system might still be... Dez Lindsay. He of the career .718 OPS. It's okay to like the roster and still acknowledge the OF depth is really, really poor.

just retired due to TJ complications, TJ Rivera had them last year. Lets hope guys like Szapucki come back healthy. TJ is no sure thing.

In comment 14266426 DanMetroMan said:

Quote:

OF is insanely thin. Broxton hasn't hit in 2 years. Dom Smith has been horrendous offensively and is a joke in the OF. TJ Rivera (if he even makes the team) has 13 CAREER appearances in the OF and is 30 years old. Rajai Davis, Gregor Blanco, Rymer Liriano... all have opt-outs (very little chance Rajai Davis at 38 is going to spend much time in Syracuse vs. retiring or going somewhere else) and have been either awful recently (the first 2) or never good (Liriano), Kaczmarski was replaced by... Matt Den Dekker and then removed from the 40 man, that's how high they are on him. It's beyond thin and even they recognize this thus adding both Davis, Blanco, Liriano etc. It's bad.

If the Phillies sign Harper - they will need to trade either Williams or Altherr. Could be a decent pickup for the Mets.

to note.. lack of OF prospects and lack of SP prospects. Once you get past Junior Santos there isn't a likely MLB SP on that list.


Rookie maximums for at-bats (130), games pitched (30) or innings (50) in the major leagues"

If the 2 leaders are within 5% of each other, or the leader has less than 30% there will be a run-off between the top 2. If a run-off results in a tie the tiebreaker will be vote total in the previous poll, we will continue to "go back" in the polls until there is a clear leader.

*Jeff McNeil is ineligible
*Chris Flexen is ineligible
*Drew Smith is ineligible
*Tyler Bashlor is ineligible

1) Andres Gimenez (SS) AA 19/37 votes- 51%
2) Peter Alonso (1B) AAA 24/36 votes- 67%
3) Ronny Mauricio (SS) Kingsport 12/33-36%
4) Mark Vientos (3b) Kingsport 16/31-52%
5) David Peterson (LHP) A+ 21/31- 68%
6) Franklyn Kilome (RHP) AA 20/33-61%
7) Thomas Szapucki (LHP) A 18/32-56%
8) Shervyen Newton (SS) Kingsport 12/30-40%, Run-off with Anthony Kay 17/33-52%
9) Anthony Kay (LHP) AA 18/26-69%
10) Simeon Woods-Richardson (RHP) Kingsport 12/30-40%
11) Will Toffey (3B) 10/29-34%, run-off with Cecchini 15/27-56%
12) Gavin Cecchini (2b) 14/26-46%
13) Francisco Alvarez (C) 9/26-35%
14) Dez Lindsay (OF) 7/18-39%
15) Tony Dibrell (RHP) 9/23-39%
16) Jordan Humphreys (RHP) 7/21-33%, Run-off with Nido 18/24-75%
17) Junior Santos (RHP) 6/28-21%, Run-off with Nido 11/20-55%
18) Tomas Nido (C) 10/23-43%
19) Luis Guillorme (SS) 9/24-38%
20) Adrian Hernandez 6/26-23%, run-off with Wahl/Cortes 8/15-53%
21) Carlos Cortes (2b) 8/21-38%
22) Steven Villines (RHP) 4/16 25%, Run-off with Thompson/Wahl 9/23-39%
23) David Thompson (3b) 8/23-35%
24) Ali Sanchez (C) 9/17-53%
25) Eric Hanhold (RHP) 7/21-33%, run-off 7/20-35%
26) Luis Carpio (IF) 4/18-22%, runoff with Uriarte 9/14-64%
27) Stanley Consuegra (OF) 4/20-20%, runoff with Uriarte/Valdez 6/17-35%, advances due to more votes in previous poll
28) Juan Uriarte (C) 4/19-21%
29) Freddy Valdez (OF) 7/17-41%
30) Daniel Zamora (LHP) 3/17-18%, run-off with Montes De Oca 10/12-83%
31) Jaylen Palmer (??) 3/12-25%, run-off with Montes de Oca/Vilera 9/16-56%
32) Ryley Gilliam (RHP) 5/22-23%, run-off with Manea 8/16-50%, advances due to more votes in previous poll
33) Matt Winaker (OF) 4/22-18
34) Kyle Dowdy (RHP) 6/20-30%, run-off with Vilera 9/12-75%
35) Jaison Vilera (RHP) 6/17-35%
36) Jose Miguel Medina(OF) 6/17-24%
37) Jeremy Vasquez (1b) 3/18-17% run-off with MDO/Manea/Viall 3/7-43%
38) Patrick Mazeika (C) 4/13-31%
39) Walker Lockett (RHP) 5/13-38%
40) Sam Haggerty (UTIL) 7/11 64%
41) Chris Viall (RHP) 4/11 36%
42) Ryder Ryan (RHP) 8/13- 62%
43) Bryce Montes de Oca 6/19 32%
44) Christian James 6/17-35%

In comment 14266426 DanMetroMan said:

Quote:

OF is insanely thin. Broxton hasn't hit in 2 years. Dom Smith has been horrendous offensively and is a joke in the OF. TJ Rivera (if he even makes the team) has 13 CAREER appearances in the OF and is 30 years old. Rajai Davis, Gregor Blanco, Rymer Liriano... all have opt-outs (very little chance Rajai Davis at 38 is going to spend much time in Syracuse vs. retiring or going somewhere else) and have been either awful recently (the first 2) or never good (Liriano), Kaczmarski was replaced by... Matt Den Dekker and then removed from the 40 man, that's how high they are on him. It's beyond thin and even they recognize this thus adding both Davis, Blanco, Liriano etc. It's bad.

you forgot Tebow

In comment 14266411 gtt350 said:

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.

Never.

In comment 14266452 spike said:

Quote:

In comment 14266426 DanMetroMan said: Quote: OF is insanely thin. Broxton hasn't hit in 2 years. Dom Smith has been horrendous offensively and is a joke in the OF. TJ Rivera (if he even makes the team) has 13 CAREER appearances in the OF and is 30 years old. Rajai Davis, Gregor Blanco, Rymer Liriano... all have opt-outs (very little chance Rajai Davis at 38 is going to spend much time in Syracuse vs. retiring or going somewhere else) and have been either awful recently (the first 2) or never good (Liriano), Kaczmarski was replaced by... Matt Den Dekker and then removed from the 40 man, that's how high they are on him. It's beyond thin and even they recognize this thus adding both Davis, Blanco, Liriano etc. It's bad. you forgot Tebow

You scoff but I think he sees a big league AB this season.

Preface once again I�ve pleaded for!achado and Harper alloffseason,and I HATE Harper.

But, is team better with Machado, or with Lowrie, Familia and Ramos filling three holes? I don�t know the answer, no one does. But that�s a reality. And it�s a reality every other team in MLB has decided is the better path, so far...

In CF? With BVW talking up McNeil in the OF, its pretty clear to me Nimmo shifts to CF days McNeil is out there with McNeil likely in LF.

The Nimmo hate is baffling (not referencing any poster here). He was only slightly below average defensively last year in CF and considering his offensive profile, his value skyrockets with him in CF actually. Obviously Lagares and Broxton are going to play against lefties and come in for defense late in games but for my money the predominant OF against righties would be McNeil-Nimmo-Conforto.

as long as they commit their money towards keeping DeGrom, Syndergaard, and Wheeler intact.

should be below average but playable in CF but given the fact they gave up real value for Broxton it doesn't appear they want him in CF much at all.

talking below average defensively so hold your pitchforks.

In comment 14266480 spike said:

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as long as they commit their money towards keeping DeGrom, Syndergaard, and Wheeler intact.

That's the way I feel, too.

In comment 14266488 DanMetroMan said:

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talking below average defensively so hold your pitchforks.

I get it, but listening to BVW yesterday, it almost sounded like Broxton was Lagares insurance, but I could be misinterpreting it.

In comment 14266476 Shecky said:

Quote:

Preface once again I�ve pleaded for!achado and Harper alloffseason,and I HATE Harper. But, is team better with Machado, or with Lowrie, Familia and Ramos filling three holes? I don�t know the answer, no one does. But that�s a reality. And it�s a reality every other team in MLB has decided is the better path, so far...

Don't you love rehashing this discussion?

In my mind it shouldn't have come down to either or.

It should have been the Mets have a need for a middle of the order bat and a long-term solution at 3B.

Machado is a tailor made fit.

Mets need an upgrade at C, Ramos made a ton of sense.

The bullpen needed a major talent infusion, so Familia was a no-brainer.

Do those moves and I'd accept the Cano trade a lot more. Maybe it's the "missing piece" adding Cano and Diaz.

In comment 14266497 ZGiants98 said:

Quote:

In comment 14266488 DanMetroMan said: Quote: talking below average defensively so hold your pitchforks. I get it, but listening to BVW yesterday, it almost sounded like Broxton was Lagares insurance, but I could be misinterpreting it.

I didn't get that impression at all. He talked up Broxton and they gave up legit value for him. I think they will have close to a straight platoon and if one far outperforms the other so be it. This was more than a flyer on a player. They traded legit young talent (Davis as well).

actually called Broxton "competition" for Lagares but at the end of the day Lagares can't hit righties and is always hurt and Broxton can't hit lefties.... the corners are lefties so Broxton is here to play CF vs. righties. It's that simple. If he is 2016 Broxton he'll play more.

don't deal Hill, Valerio and Wahl for CF "insurance" in the form of Broxton. 1 "top 20 prospect with a chance to be as high as 10 next year", a hard throwing MLB ready RP and a lottery ticket unless he's part of the plans and he is. Now he may flat out suck. In fact, odds are both Broxton and Lagares are ex-Mets next year but that's the plan on paper.

Mickey is creative and rotates everyone in accordingly. Obviously, McNeil in LF (assuming he can handle it) gets our 8 best bats in the lineup. He really has flexibility to play different matchups now though. I�m not really all that confident in Mickey however.

didn't mention Lowrie at 1b but he should see some time there as well. Frazier is the weakest link, his value is mostly tied to his glove. You'd like to see McNeil have a shot to see time in both corners, 3b, 2b, 1b and maybe even some SS.

In comment 14266508 ZGiants98 said:

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Mickey is creative and rotates everyone in accordingly. Obviously, McNeil in LF (assuming he can handle it) gets our 8 best bats in the lineup. He really has flexibility to play different matchups now though. I�m not really all that confident in Mickey however.

This is a major concern for me. You need a guy who know how to move guys around and play to the flexibility. Hopefully he figures it out. I think Mickey opens the season on the hot seat.

To the OF twice in the last week. I don�t think he meant as the 5th OF and obviously Nimmo or Conforto are the starters.

A lot of assumptions being made here and by the Mets.

McNeil can play OF? Very limited if any experience doing it.

- Cesepdes coming back? You can not rely on that.

- Playing Nimmo in CF every day or relying on Lagares/ Broxton? Very iffy.

Not to mention a hole at 1B and relying on a rookie is never a sure thing. There are still a lot of question marks in this lineup ( and the bullpen as well).

In comment 14266510 DanMetroMan said:

Quote:

In comment 14266508 ZGiants98 said: Quote: Mickey is creative and rotates everyone in accordingly. Obviously, McNeil in LF (assuming he can handle it) gets our 8 best bats in the lineup. He really has flexibility to play different matchups now though. I�m not really all that confident in Mickey however. This is a major concern for me. You need a guy who know how to move guys around and play to the flexibility. Hopefully he figures it out. I think Mickey opens the season on the hot seat.

Same. He was actually pretty awful at it last year actually.

really hope Alonso doesn't make a big deal about opening in AAA. It's a business and the Mets have to do what's right business wise.

I also think if you asked them to guess right now which 3 players have started the majority of the games in the OF by the end of the season the guess would be Nimmo, Conforto, McNeil.

Lagares and Broxton will compete in ST, the best guy will start in CF. They don't expect Lagares to stay healthy and put up another 3 fwar season but it could happen. I don't think they expect Broxton to win that competition or be the 20-20 guy he was a few years ago but it could happen.

In the most likely scenario where both of those things don't happen and Mcneil is hitting + has shown he can handle the OF defensively, he will most likely end up getting the majority of the starts in the OF with the CF'ers providing depth and coming in as late game pinch runners/defensive replacements. The reality is Lagares has been too unreliable to even be counted on as a 4th OF'er, which is why Broxton was needed.

In comment 14266424 pjcas18 said:

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In comment 14266401 Shecky said: Quote: In comment 14266376 pjcas18 said: Quote: if BVW is stupid or playing stupid or neither, but we all know #3 is absolutely legit. Constraints of our plan = budget Quote: Michael Mayer ‏ @mikemayerMMO Interesting quote from BVW, "I�ve never operated this offseason to wait and see if a market dropped. In fact, all of our moves have not been market contingent, they�ve been roster contingent � how do these players fit? Can we acquire them within the constraints of our plan?� 8:13 AM - 17 Jan 2019 In case it hasn�t been obvious by now, he likes to target the best player/fit for the team and aggressively target him. Whether it�s trade or FA. Whether it�s an �overpay�or not. I thing preventing him from coming back to the market when it drops. But a hard lesson learned by Somme FO and agents is Brody is very straight forward, will overpay. But the second you�ve played your cards too hard, he�s not just ready but willing to quickly move on. It�s certainly a refreshing change of pace. I don't mind that, but it's kind of hard to look fans in the eye and say Jed Lowrie was a better fit for the Mets than Manny Machado. Until you add and understand "within the constraints of our plan" which is what pisses off most Mets fans because it means they don't want to spend on Machado.

Even the Yankees are reticent to spend on Machado. If I can get Cano, Diaz, Familia, Lowrie, and Ramos, I'll take that over one player in Machado and lesser players filling out those other roles. I know Machado is a great bat, but BVW is making a deep team and retaining most of his farm. That's a great thing, IMO.

After the history of terrible free agent, blockbuster signings, Bonilla, Alomar, Matsui, Jason Bay, Luis Castillo, the acquisition of Mo Vaughn (I know they traded for him but they also paid him a lot), and, most recently, Yoenis Cespedes with an asterisk (I mean, he did help us to the World Series), then the huge, roster constraining deals like a Machado and Harper would be make so little sense. I prefer the approach of cost-effective quality players up and down the roster. I think that gives us the best chance to make the World Series again. Manny is a great player, and he may help a team to a World Series title one day. But the law of scarcity is still a thing.

Yes, I would prefer the Mets spend like the Red Sox. But they don't, so maximize the talent with the funds available, and if I look at this off-season through that lens, I have to give BVW an A+. Just make sure McNeil gets his 500 or so ABs.

that they seem to have taken this offseason, as long as they see it through.

Given where we are now, I'd like to see Pollack, plus one more BP arm and one more backend of the rotation guy.

My problem is we're probably not getting Pollack and I don't know if we're bringing both a BP arm and another SP.

Hopefully they have more work to do.

a pretty high price in farm though. as many as 5 top 15 picks have been traded and all they got for those farm picks is a closer and competition/platoon guys.

I'm one who believes 100% in I'd sacrifice the farm for major league talent, but don't pretend he's doing this without hurting the farm and I don't always support that approach if it's done because the team is hesitant to spend money (sign Kimbrel vs trade for Diaz kind of thing). Who knows, maybe Diaz winds up better, but Kimbrel has a track record and wouldn't have cost Kelenic and Dunn.

And my point, again, is the Mets should not have had to choose between Machado or other improvements.

The Mets should have added Machado, and made the same other improvements (Ramos, Familia, Lowrie if they still wanted, and more).

When you have a player like Machado who costs no draft picks and could be added (in theory) for $25M per season (waiting to see what he signs for), you do it.

I don't care what the Yankees are reticent to do.

otherwise it's just seems too rich for what is likely the last amount of money they have left. I'd rather spend $15-20m on 2-4 fwar worth of pitchers at this point than 2-4 fwar of an injury prone CF (who also costs a 2nd round pick).

you believe Heyman, Pollock isn't happening. So I would also close the door on my Keuchel pursuit. I'd love Ottavino but doubt it. Allen and/or Warren would be nice.

would have been a nice add. Innings, lefty, really solid pitcher.

In comment 14266564 DanMetroMan said:

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you believe Heyman, Pollock isn't happening. So I would also close the door on my Keuchel pursuit. I'd love Ottavino but doubt it. Allen and/or Warren would be nice.

Agreed. Plus the other guys we've discussed (Gio, Miley, etc).

In comment 14266566 DanMetroMan said:

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would have been a nice add. Innings, lefty, really solid pitcher.

Agree here as well - this is where it's most debateable whether or not the $20m on Lowrie was better spent on pitching since Mcneil could have played 3B and they already spent resources dealing for Davis to provide depth. And have Frazier/Alonso. I like Lowrie though and he's been as valuable as just about anyone in FA over the past 2 years though. Would be nice to just be able to afford both.

The rest were either traded from excess/redundant pools(far away/a million SS) or were traded for other young players with a ton of control (Davis is 5 months older than Alonso).

You can easily replace what was lost in most drafts (except Kelenic) IMO.

In comment 14266571 Eric on Li said:

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In comment 14266566 DanMetroMan said: Quote: would have been a nice add. Innings, lefty, really solid pitcher. Agree here as well - this is where it's most debateable whether or not the $20m on Lowrie was better spent on pitching since Mcneil could have played 3B and they already spent resources dealing for Davis to provide depth. And have Frazier/Alonso. I like Lowrie though and he's been as valuable as just about anyone in FA over the past 2 years though. Would be nice to just be able to afford both.

I think he's a potential steal for someone. (Keuchel).

The "we should just sign Machado or Harper" argument is fan talk. This is a business. You run it like a business. Expenses matter and while it would be fun to have a bigger payroll, that's not reality.

In comment 14266476 Shecky said:

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Preface once again I�ve pleaded for!achado and Harper alloffseason,and I HATE Harper. But, is team better with Machado, or with Lowrie, Familia and Ramos filling three holes? I don�t know the answer, no one does. But that�s a reality. And it�s a reality every other team in MLB has decided is the better path, so far...

The team is better with Machado, Familia, and Ramos than with Lowrie, Familia, and Ramos... it's not really even debatable.

That is the problem most Mets fans have. Period.

In comment 14266626 Csonka said:

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The "we should just sign Machado or Harper" argument is fan talk. This is a business. You run it like a business. Expenses matter and while it would be fun to have a bigger payroll, that's not reality.

If you are operating a professional sports team trying to turn an operating profit, you shouldn't own a professional sports team.

In comment 14266539 allstarjim said:

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After the history of terrible free agent, blockbuster signings, Bonilla, Alomar, Matsui, Jason Bay, Luis Castillo, the acquisition of Mo Vaughn (I know they traded for him but they also paid him a lot), and, most recently, Yoenis Cespedes with an asterisk (I mean, he did help us to the World Series), then the huge, roster constraining deals like a Machado and Harper would be make so little sense.

Bonilla - not a bad signing, look at the numbers
Alomar - that was a trade
Matsui - terrible signing but wasn't that big, never precluded them from anything else
Bay - terrible signing, but one could argue the reason it was so bad was they should have signed Holliday but went cheap
Castillo - trade wasnt terrible; subsequent resigning was suspect but it really wasnt anything that precluded them from doing anything



Beltran and Bonilla are really the only 2 analogies in team history... the 90s Mets weren't on competitiveness doorstep... the 00s Mets were... I'd argue that this Mets team IS.. if now isn't the time to make a huge splash, when is!?

Funny

In comment 14266658 moze1021 said:

Quote:

In comment 14266626 Csonka said: Quote: The "we should just sign Machado or Harper" argument is fan talk. This is a business. You run it like a business. Expenses matter and while it would be fun to have a bigger payroll, that's not reality. If you are operating a professional sports team trying to turn an operating profit, you shouldn't own a professional sports team.

Why? Without the profit motive why would anyone be in business, unless you're a charity and even then there is often a personal profit motive.

Mets paid Alomar 2 years 16 million TOTAL. Big name but far from a blockbuster expenditure. It's like saying if Lowrie is a bust it's yet another "blockbuster" addition that didn't work. Kaz Matsui made 7 million per...and Bonilla jokes aside is one of the best Mets EVER offensively.

was awful.. but made 6.25 per season...

4 years 25 million. They ate the final year. By fWAR he was worth 14.7 million which means they overpaid by a whopping 11 million over 4 years...

"just sign Machado".

and I agree, long-term contracts are generally something that should be only considered very carefully. In all sports because when they don't work out the impact can be disastrous. Though and not to go off on a tangent, for the Mets, and being a top 10 revenue generating franchise in a big market, they should be able to withstand a failed contract.

But in the Mets case there is/was a perfect match.

Mets had a need offensively and defensively.

And Machado is 26 years old, and doesn't even cost draft picks.

So, if there is ever a time to strongly consider a long-term high dollar contract Machado is it.

in general though I agree, and in the end the path the Mets chose: Cano/Lowrie might work, but I think it has a higher risk of failure than Machado at 3B and McNeil at 2B.

anyway, we've beaten the snot out of this dead horse.

In comment 14266687 allstarjim said:

Quote:

In comment 14266658 moze1021 said: Quote: In comment 14266626 Csonka said: Quote: The "we should just sign Machado or Harper" argument is fan talk. This is a business. You run it like a business. Expenses matter and while it would be fun to have a bigger payroll, that's not reality. If you are operating a professional sports team trying to turn an operating profit, you shouldn't own a professional sports team. Why? Without the profit motive why would anyone be in business, unless you're a charity and even then there is often a personal profit motive.

Short answer... status. Just like owning a winery.

But there is also investment opportunity; growing the inherent value of the franchise through break-even operational success.

Notice I said operating profit... meaning from baseball operations... with successful operations comes other possibilities (more lucrative tv/advert deals) and with more league wide success comes more revenue sharing opportunities

In comment 14266677 Samiam said:

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Funny

I said operating profit.

Yankees baseball operations routinely runs at a loss, yet they are most valuable franchise in baseball.

In comment 14266688 DanMetroMan said:

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Mets paid Alomar 2 years 16 million TOTAL. Big name but far from a blockbuster expenditure. It's like saying if Lowrie is a bust it's yet another "blockbuster" addition that didn't work. Kaz Matsui made 7 million per...and Bonilla jokes aside is one of the best Mets EVER offensively.

I mean, this should all be in context. Bonilla's contract was 5 years for $29 million, and that made him the highest paid player in the league. Yeah you can talk about how Alomar was only $16 million, but at the time that was a huge amount for a 2B. He would've been the highest paid player on about 10 different teams at the time, and was one of the top 50 highest paid players at the time. Context is everything here.

And Bonilla was a bad contract. He hit some, but missed a lot of games, and did not give the Mets what he was paid for, which is why they dumped him. It was a bad deal. What we thought we were getting was a .300 hitter, over 30 homers and over 100 RBIs annually. In '95 the Mets were finally getting what they paid him to do, so they traded him. 1992 sucked though, and he was just hurt too much in subsequent years even though he would hit when healthy. If you're spending significant time on the DL every season and you're the game's highest paid player, that's not a good deal.

In comment 14266739 allstarjim said:

Quote:

In comment 14266688 DanMetroMan said: Quote: Mets paid Alomar 2 years 16 million TOTAL. Big name but far from a blockbuster expenditure. It's like saying if Lowrie is a bust it's yet another "blockbuster" addition that didn't work. Kaz Matsui made 7 million per...and Bonilla jokes aside is one of the best Mets EVER offensively. I mean, this should all be in context. Bonilla's contract was 5 years for $29 million, and that made him the highest paid player in the league. Yeah you can talk about how Alomar was only $16 million, but at the time that was a huge amount for a 2B. He would've been the highest paid player on about 10 different teams at the time, and was one of the top 50 highest paid players at the time. Context is everything here. And Bonilla was a bad contract. He hit some, but missed a lot of games, and did not give the Mets what he was paid for, which is why they dumped him. It was a bad deal. What we thought we were getting was a .300 hitter, over 30 homers and over 100 RBIs annually. In '95 the Mets were finally getting what they paid him to do, so they traded him. 1992 sucked though, and he was just hurt too much in subsequent years even though he would hit when healthy. If you're spending significant time on the DL every season and you're the game's highest paid player, that's not a good deal.

All due respect but you're both pointing to context and... contracts as far back as 30 years ago!. Roberto Alomar didn't set back the Mets one iota. The Bonilla Mets teams were awful with or without him. FYI 2002 Mets Alomar's salary was 4th on the team, right ahead of Jeromy Burnitz. Vaughn, Piazza, Leiter all were making more so lets not pretend he was a major salary that killed what they could do. "Top 50" needs context just the same. He was making 7.2 million, A-Rod was making 22 and 23 players were making more than 10 million per.

Why does everyone just assume McNeil can play the outfield? Hes played the outfield 8 times in his minors career and played the outfield a total of 75 times in college. He is not exactly known for his glove either, he's probably a better athlete than Murphy but do people forget how awful he was out there. Most frustrating thing about the Mets is they just assume they can play anyone anywhere. Keep McNeil in the infield where he is comfortable, so that it doesnt take away from his bat.

In comment 14266760 Kmitch83 said:

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Why does everyone just assume McNeil can play the outfield? Hes played the outfield 8 times in his minors career and played the outfield a total of 75 times in college. He is not exactly known for his glove either, he's probably a better athlete than Murphy but do people forget how awful he was out there. Most frustrating thing about the Mets is they just assume they can play anyone anywhere. Keep McNeil in the infield where he is comfortable, so that it doesnt take away from his bat.

Teams have long hid inferior defensive players that have plus bats in LF. McNeil has decent wheels, and catching fly balls is not hard. He can hit, which is why he is fine in LF.

The defensive conversation RE: McNeil in LF takes a significant back seat to how his bat plays in the lineup. Plus he'll get plenty of work giving infielders days off.

To me but hey in March hope springs eternal.

I'm 100% sure McNeil can. He's a good athlete.
I'm less concerned with McNeil in left than I am with Nimmo in center. Nimmo can do it, but he's a big drop off defensively from Lagares and probably Broxton.

think McNeil will be fine in LF but it's funny how adament they were "2b only!!" and now he's Zobrist? lol

is not a good defensive CF. He has decent speed (28.5 ft/sec) would rank neck and neck with Lagares) but he takes poor angles and slow jumps. I don't see that changing a ton but he likely can improve to the point he's average-ish. Once the speed ratchets down he will have no real margin for error.

In comment 14266753 DanMetroMan said:

Quote:

In comment 14266739 allstarjim said: Quote: In comment 14266688 DanMetroMan said: Quote: Mets paid Alomar 2 years 16 million TOTAL. Big name but far from a blockbuster expenditure. It's like saying if Lowrie is a bust it's yet another "blockbuster" addition that didn't work. Kaz Matsui made 7 million per...and Bonilla jokes aside is one of the best Mets EVER offensively. I mean, this should all be in context. Bonilla's contract was 5 years for $29 million, and that made him the highest paid player in the league. Yeah you can talk about how Alomar was only $16 million, but at the time that was a huge amount for a 2B. He would've been the highest paid player on about 10 different teams at the time, and was one of the top 50 highest paid players at the time. Context is everything here. And Bonilla was a bad contract. He hit some, but missed a lot of games, and did not give the Mets what he was paid for, which is why they dumped him. It was a bad deal. What we thought we were getting was a .300 hitter, over 30 homers and over 100 RBIs annually. In '95 the Mets were finally getting what they paid him to do, so they traded him. 1992 sucked though, and he was just hurt too much in subsequent years even though he would hit when healthy. If you're spending significant time on the DL every season and you're the game's highest paid player, that's not a good deal. All due respect but you're both pointing to context and... contracts as far back as 30 years ago!. Roberto Alomar didn't set back the Mets one iota. The Bonilla Mets teams were awful with or without him. FYI 2002 Mets Alomar's salary was 4th on the team, right ahead of Jeromy Burnitz. Vaughn, Piazza, Leiter all were making more so lets not pretend he was a major salary that killed what they could do. "Top 50" needs context just the same. He was making 7.2 million, A-Rod was making 22 and 23 players were making more than 10 million per.

Yes, and A-Rod aside, it was still a lot of money. Mo Vaughn was what, the third highest salary in baseball in '03 or so?

Sure, a bunch of Yankees, Dodgers, and Red Sox were making a bunch of money (plus A-Rod), but I don't think that diminishes the point. Blockbuster might've been too strong a word to characterize a couple of those deals, but each one of them were significant deals to the METS team budget and each one of them hurt the Mets competitively.

I prefer what BVW is doing.

not even nitpicking here though (as I'm known to do). Alomar made 7.25 million, the 2002 Mets payroll was 94.6 million, so he represented roughly 7% of their payroll. Someone like Harper at 35 million (out of say 170) would be nearly 3 times that, almost a quarter of the payroll. Lets put it this way, the Mets 2018 payroll is roughly 160 million, Jed Lowrie at 10 million is 6.25% of the Mets payroll. So you can argue against Harper but some of these examples just aren't fair. Alomar was an epic bust because he sucked as a Met but his salary wasn't near the league league. The Mets could, should be willing to spend on top 50 MLB players at 7% of their payroll each and every year.

In comment 14266739 allstarjim said:

Quote:

In comment 14266688 DanMetroMan said: Quote: Mets paid Alomar 2 years 16 million TOTAL. Big name but far from a blockbuster expenditure. It's like saying if Lowrie is a bust it's yet another "blockbuster" addition that didn't work. Kaz Matsui made 7 million per...and Bonilla jokes aside is one of the best Mets EVER offensively. I mean, this should all be in context. Bonilla's contract was 5 years for $29 million, and that made him the highest paid player in the league. Yeah you can talk about how Alomar was only $16 million, but at the time that was a huge amount for a 2B. He would've been the highest paid player on about 10 different teams at the time, and was one of the top 50 highest paid players at the time. Context is everything here. And Bonilla was a bad contract. He hit some, but missed a lot of games, and did not give the Mets what he was paid for, which is why they dumped him. It was a bad deal. What we thought we were getting was a .300 hitter, over 30 homers and over 100 RBIs annually. In '95 the Mets were finally getting what they paid him to do, so they traded him. 1992 sucked though, and he was just hurt too much in subsequent years even though he would hit when healthy. If you're spending significant time on the DL every season and you're the game's highest paid player, that's not a good deal.

They didn't dump him... they got top prospects for him and then he went on to legitimately help teams. If the Mets were a good team otherwise, Bonilla maybe puts them over the top.

Look, was he Barry Bonds like they hoped? Absolutely not. But he was hardly a bust and he CERTAINLY should not be any consideration for what the Mets franchise does 27 years later.

Does Carl Crawford scare the Red Sox? Pablo Sandoval?

What about the Yankees with Carl Pavano? Jacoby Ellsbury?

No... they make mistakes, they eat it, they move on.

Bay was a disastrous signing (they went cheap over Holliday the clear #1 guy) Alomar was awful but didn't set them back. That's the difference.

is not an easy place to play OF. There is no reason to sacrifice defense with this pitching staff.

In comment 14266827 allstarjim said:

Quote:

In comment 14266753 DanMetroMan said: Quote: In comment 14266739 allstarjim said: Quote: In comment 14266688 DanMetroMan said: Quote: Mets paid Alomar 2 years 16 million TOTAL. Big name but far from a blockbuster expenditure. It's like saying if Lowrie is a bust it's yet another "blockbuster" addition that didn't work. Kaz Matsui made 7 million per...and Bonilla jokes aside is one of the best Mets EVER offensively. I mean, this should all be in context. Bonilla's contract was 5 years for $29 million, and that made him the highest paid player in the league. Yeah you can talk about how Alomar was only $16 million, but at the time that was a huge amount for a 2B. He would've been the highest paid player on about 10 different teams at the time, and was one of the top 50 highest paid players at the time. Context is everything here. And Bonilla was a bad contract. He hit some, but missed a lot of games, and did not give the Mets what he was paid for, which is why they dumped him. It was a bad deal. What we thought we were getting was a .300 hitter, over 30 homers and over 100 RBIs annually. In '95 the Mets were finally getting what they paid him to do, so they traded him. 1992 sucked though, and he was just hurt too much in subsequent years even though he would hit when healthy. If you're spending significant time on the DL every season and you're the game's highest paid player, that's not a good deal. All due respect but you're both pointing to context and... contracts as far back as 30 years ago!. Roberto Alomar didn't set back the Mets one iota. The Bonilla Mets teams were awful with or without him. FYI 2002 Mets Alomar's salary was 4th on the team, right ahead of Jeromy Burnitz. Vaughn, Piazza, Leiter all were making more so lets not pretend he was a major salary that killed what they could do. "Top 50" needs context just the same. He was making 7.2 million, A-Rod was making 22 and 23 players were making more than 10 million per. Yes, and A-Rod aside, it was still a lot of money. Mo Vaughn was what, the third highest salary in baseball in '03 or so? Sure, a bunch of Yankees, Dodgers, and Red Sox were making a bunch of money (plus A-Rod), but I don't think that diminishes the point. Blockbuster might've been too strong a word to characterize a couple of those deals, but each one of them were significant deals to the METS team budget and each one of them hurt the Mets competitively. I prefer what BVW is doing.

I guess I just don't understand how someone wouldn't want BVW to do what he has done AND add Bryce Harper unless they are concerned about the team's finances (and you shouldn't be, they CAN afford it if they want)

You know what... maybe Vaughn and Alomar aren't terrible analogies. They were both 34 when they joined the Mets..

Bryce Harper will be 8 years through a 10 year deal by the time he is their age.

What if the Mets had the opportunity to sign Alomar and Vaughn when they were 26? They would have been IDIOTS not to, no matter the cost.

Now, consider that Alomar and Vaughn are 2 of the worst case examples of superstar player declines at or around age 34...

and I hope it does, but I'm not sure how any fan can PREFER this approach.

Unless you nail draft picks or IFA's who are ready to contribute (which does not appear to be the case) the Mets are in this boat every year.

long-term signings (that work out) provide stability and long-term plans.

short-term signings (and injuries) are you wind up with what the Mets have. short-term successes followed by years of futility.

for one, stop half-assing it.

Machado was the not half-assing it approach.

Cano/Lowrie is the half-assing it approach. make motions like you want to be a contender, but you're not willing to go "all in".

no idea how a fan can prefer the half-assed approach.

Explains it exactly. It�s not like they are going all in on defense and pitching. Back of rotation/ bullpen/ defense/ middle of the order bat are all major question marks.

Half ass is the perfect description of this offseason. I have no idea how any dan can defend owners not spending- especially the Wilpons. They are simply pocketing that money.

I believe by default anyone on the 40-man doesn't need an "invite" they're invited by default (correct me if I'm wrong).

There's just a lot of risk. Cespedes being the perfect example. Guy checked every box in terms of being a safe investment - had twice carried us to the playoffs, had a track record of always producing 500+ AB's, hit in the clutch, had every tool you could want, brought energy to the clubhouse, and then from age 31+ he just turned into a pumpkin.

It's not necessarily the choice I would make, but like I said I get it. Especially in an offseason where you can get a possible 4-5 fwar player like Lowrie for just $10m per year. In total dollars they are going to pay Lowrie and Cano $50m over the next 2 years ($25m per year). I think it's a pretty fair bet that combined their war will be similar or better than Harper or Machado individually. Again to be clear - not necessarily the choice I would make, just that I get it.

What I don't get is passing on reasonable salaried players at positions of need like Derek Holland (or Gio, or Miley) or some of the fair BP deals that are starting to happen - but that's another story. The half ass part.

than Machado when the Mets signed him (not traded for him but signed him) and the contract was insured.

I get they pay premiums and a lot has to happen before insurance kicks in, but if the worst case happens (like last year and 2017) the financial impact of Cespedes (generically) should be minor.

the roster impact is bigger because when you have a player like Cespedes penciled in and no one on the farm to replace him, it creates a vacuum when he gets hurt.

Machado is different IMO, but no one is immune to injuries and I don't think you should shy away from giving a LTC to a 26 year old infielder out of fear of injury, otherwise you should pay no one.

Fans talking about extending deGrom and Thor, they're both FAR more risky than Machado (historically positionally speaking)

In comment 14267081 pjcas18 said:

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than Machado when the Mets signed him (not traded for him but signed him) and the contract was insured. I get they pay premiums and a lot has to happen before insurance kicks in, but if the worst case happens (like last year and 2017) the financial impact of Cespedes (generically) should be minor. the roster impact is bigger because when you have a player like Cespedes penciled in and no one on the farm to replace him, it creates a vacuum when he gets hurt. Machado is different IMO, but no one is immune to injuries and I don't think you should shy away from giving a LTC to a 26 year old infielder out of fear of injury, otherwise you should pay no one. Fans talking about extending deGrom and Thor, they're both FAR more risky than Machado (historically positionally speaking)

It's all relative. Who knows what Machado or Harper end up getting, but 8 or 10 years is still very long. Even though he was 31 none of us foresaw Cespedes literally hitting his expiration date in year 1 & 2. JDG is probably going to get signed for 5 years and half of the total money Harper/Machado get. Totally agree any pitcher is riskier than any position player, but also harder to find. If JDG was a UFA right now I don't think the Mets would be spending what he's worth on the open market, they are extending him because they have the leverage to do so at a discounted price since they have non-guaranteed years of control.

Jed Lowrie is entering his age 35 season.

Harper would be 9 years through a 10 year deal when he is same age Jed is now.

Think about that for a minute.

I can buy fear of Machado's body and work ethic... Can't buy the same with Harper..

Years shouldn't be scary.

In comment 14267113 moze1021 said:

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Jed Lowrie is entering his age 35 season. Harper would be 9 years through a 10 year deal when he is same age Jed is now. Think about that for a minute. I can buy fear of Machado's body and work ethic... Can't buy the same with Harper.. Years shouldn't be scary.

9 years from now is still 9 years from now - a lot can happen regardless of age, though obviously it's better that he's young there's no guarantee he ages the way Lowrie did. Last year he was a pretty big defensive negative even in RF. In comparison to say Beltran entering FA as a CF and A-Rod as a SS, I think there are more risks with both Harper and Machado. My preference would actually go more towards Machado personally.

and for good reason... But I do think it's funny that the world champs could literally give a flying fuck about a bullpen. lol. They are almost daring teams to go that route while they simply do not care at all.

Meanwhile the Yankees have never won a thing with their "super pen".

Not saying either is right or wrong but I do find it amusing.

- haven't won less than 84 games in the regular season since 1995
- have gone to the playoffs 3/5 years since Rivera retired
- #1 if fwar among relief pitchers over those 5 years by more than 10 fwar (they have 36.5 fwar in those 5 years, closest team is Houston with 26 fwar - our Mets btw are 28th with 10.5fwar)

let's just say agree to disagree and end the argument here. Boston spends just as much as they do and have had multiple years of losing records. Yes the Yankees spend a ridiculous amount of money, but they have a great GM who spends it smartly - and 1 of the areas they have been way ahead of the rest of league in is building a dominant BP. For a long time on back of Rivera's greatness, and since he retired by creating unprecedented depth when the rest of the league decided that it was smarter to save money on the BP bc it's volatile. It hasn't been for the Yankees and it's because they add to their BP every year, even when it seems like they don't need to.

In comment 14267318 ZGiants98 said:

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and for good reason... But I do think it's funny that the world champs could literally give a flying fuck about a bullpen. lol. They are almost daring teams to go that route while they simply do not care at all. Meanwhile the Yankees have never won a thing with their "super pen". Not saying either is right or wrong but I do find it amusing.

Tempting as it may be to look at Boston's bullpen as a case of "ignoring" it and thinking they don't need one in some genius, smartest-guy-in-the-room fasion...

It's pretty plainly about money. They are paying Price + Pedroia + PABLO SANDOVAL a hair under $70M in 2019. They're also about a moment away from having their 3 best players (Betts, JD, Sale) out of their control. Those guys make $60M in 2019, and if they want to keep all of them, that $60M probably looks more like $85-90M in 2020.

They definitely deserve credit for what they were able to figure out in the postseason in terms of using SPs in late-game / high leverage with a ton of success.

As it stands now, their bullpen is in the kind of shape that could postentially cost them a division or even a WC spot. That isn't hyperbole. They could be in very real trouble with that bullpen.

Tickled as you are that the Yankees "have never won a thing" with their loaded bullpen approach, the truth is that it's the biggest factor that catapulted them back into relevance 2 years earlier than reasonably anticipated, during a period in which their rotation has been mediocre/shallow to say the least...

the Red Sox had the highest payroll in baseball by a lot and they did have the 4th highest paid closer in baseball.

When you have money spent all over the roster to those levels you can get away with spending less elsewhere.

credit for. We lost Piazza and have basically had the lowest WAR from the catcher position since. That's usually what happens when HOF players retire - they are hard to replace. I'll defer to Hoya on how important the BP has been the scope of their team success but to statistically stay at the top of the league after losing a once in a generation player like Rivera is no small feat.

I found Corey Taylor to be underwhelming the few times I've seen him (velocity seems to be overstated) but I'll say this 199.2 career innings 7 homers allowed, pretty impressive. I'm not particularly high on him but with RP's.. who knows? Sometimes you luck into 40 solid innings from some random decent arm and that has value too.

"
Yup, there's not much in our OF depth right now at all. Maybe Consuegra or Valdez step up. Possibly JMM. But it's pretty darn thin.

I'm not a huge believer in Brodey. I've voted for him a few times in the 40s, but that's not exactly singing praises, but I do rank him above Winaker and Kaz due to his upside. I rank Kaz ahead of Winaker too."

In comment 14267441 DanMetroMan said:

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I found Corey Taylor to be underwhelming the few times I've seen him (velocity seems to be overstated) but I'll say this 199.2 career innings 7 homers allowed, pretty impressive. I'm not particularly high on him but with RP's.. who knows? Sometimes you luck into 40 solid innings from some random decent arm and that has value too.

Ryder Ryan intrigues me because he at least has some velocity to his fastball and not as much wear and tear on his arm since he was initially a position player in college. He is another of the reasons why I had no problem moving Bobby Wahl.

In comment 14267450 Mike in NY said:

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In comment 14267441 DanMetroMan said: Quote: I found Corey Taylor to be underwhelming the few times I've seen him (velocity seems to be overstated) but I'll say this 199.2 career innings 7 homers allowed, pretty impressive. I'm not particularly high on him but with RP's.. who knows? Sometimes you luck into 40 solid innings from some random decent arm and that has value too. Ryder Ryan intrigues me because he at least has some velocity to his fastball and not as much wear and tear on his arm since he was initially a position player in college. He is another of the reasons why I had no problem moving Bobby Wahl.

Well Ryan is another example of what I'm saying. The Mets haven't been particularly "lucky" in this regard but good teams generally have a guy or 2 pop up and surprise with some quality innings. Does Villines do that? Does Ryan? Does Hanhold? I mean they don't have a future big-time RP (on paper) in the system. Of course a guy like SWR could end up in the pen (he's probably at least 3 years away) or a guy like Santos but the Mets should both be adding legit BP arms (as I've noted I loved Parker at that price) and also hope some of these guys surprise.

In comment 14267415 Eric on Li said:

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- haven't won less than 84 games in the regular season since 1995 - have gone to the playoffs 3/5 years since Rivera retired - #1 if fwar among relief pitchers over those 5 years by more than 10 fwar (they have 36.5 fwar in those 5 years, closest team is Houston with 26 fwar - our Mets btw are 28th with 10.5fwar) let's just say agree to disagree and end the argument here. Boston spends just as much as they do and have had multiple years of losing records. Yes the Yankees spend a ridiculous amount of money, but they have a great GM who spends it smartly - and 1 of the areas they have been way ahead of the rest of league in is building a dominant BP. For a long time on back of Rivera's greatness, and since he retired by creating unprecedented depth when the rest of the league decided that it was smarter to save money on the BP bc it's volatile. It hasn't been for the Yankees and it's because they add to their BP every year, even when it seems like they don't need to.

Not a single Yankee fan cares about them winning 84 games. Hell, most Mets fans dont even care that the Mets went to the WS a few years back. It's basically rings or nothing, especially in Yankee world.

But that wasn't my point at all. Of course you need a great closer. But, this new philosophy that a few teams have employed of building super pens, really hasn't paid off in terms of a championship in the modern era yet. Not, the 3-4 closer model anyway. It might some day, but it really hasn't yet. Obviously, there have been champions with good pens, but thats not what Im referring to.

IMO, the Yankees are an ace short of being legitimately taken seriously in the postseason. I think most of their fanbase knows it too. Should they have spent 40 million AAV on relievers, or should they have done everything possible to get a Kluber? I think a Kluber makes them the best team in baseball, not Otto, Britten, ect. But hey.. maybe they finally make a move for a TOR ace anyway. They are the Yankees after all.

on the deal he just signed.... Looks like he really wanted to close though and that wasn't happening here. Bleh.

In comment 14267523 ZGiants98 said:

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on the deal he just signed.... Looks like he really wanted to close though and that wasn't happening here. Bleh.

Bingo

In comment 14267517 ZGiants98 said:

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IMO, the Yankees are an ace short of being legitimately taken seriously in the postseason. I think most of their fanbase knows it too. Should they have spent 40 million AAV on relievers, or should they have done everything possible to get a Kluber? I think a Kluber makes them the best team in baseball, not Otto, Britten, ect. But hey.. maybe they finally make a move for a TOR ace anyway. They are the Yankees after all.

1 has nothing to do with the other since nothing has stopped them from going after Kluber. Not wanting to give up Torres or Andujar is what has stopped them from getting Kluber - not spending on the BP. They haven't signed relievers over elite SP, elite SP just never hit the FA market. They generally go after whoever the best available guys are (Corbin).

Also it's more than a little ridiculous to thumb your nose at a team saying they shouldn't be "legitimately taken seriously" in the postseason when they lost a close series to last year's champion while presumably taking more seriously a franchise that has yet to prove it can even make the playoffs more than once or twice every decade.

as top 1B prospect. I'd get excited, but I think Dom Smith was #1 or #2 a couple years ago.

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MLB Pipeline released their top 10 first base prospects list, and heading the list is Mets first base prospect Peter Alonso. Alonso, 24, hit .285/.395/.579 with 36 home runs and 119 RBI in 2018 between Double-A Binghamton and Triple-A Las Vegas. Alonso leads the list also featuring various first round picks like the Mariners� Evan White, Rays two-way prospect Brendan McKay, Royals� Nick Pratto, and Red Sox 2018 first-rounder Triston Casas. MLB rated Alonso as the prospect among them with the highest power tool with a 60 rating on the 20-80 prospect scale, noting his bat speed and strength, as well as his ability to translate great raw power into game power. MLB also rated Alonso as the most likely of the group to win the Rookie of the Year award, noting that he has little to prove in the minor leagues. Rays prospect Nathaniel Lowe, Twins prospect Brent Rooker, and Angels prospect Matt Thaiss were all also slated to make their debuts at some point in 2019 by MLB.com.

Link - ( New Window )

Rays are LOADED. Almost sad they can't spend.

They need an ace and everyone knows it. They also haven�t won a championship in over a decade and everyone knows that too.

Seperately, starting pitchers and starting everyday players are always going to be worth more to a teams chances than relievers. That�s been true since the dawn of time.

Until a team proves they can win a championship by the 3-4 closer method while neglecting the other two key components, it�s really just a fad imo.

1B prospect.

With building a super pen. I hope the Mets still bring in somebody else. I just don�t think it should be as high of a priority as some make it to be, especially if your neglecting the rotation and lineup. Relievers are volatile year to year and have much less impact on wins and losses generally over the course of a season simply from the amount of innings they pitch.

With building a super pen. I hope the Mets still bring in somebody else. I just don�t think it should be as high of a priority as some make it to be, especially if your neglecting the rotation and lineup. Relievers are volatile year to year and have much less impact on wins and losses generally over the course of a season simply from the amount of innings they pitch.

Sorry for the double post!

Would be nice to see a random middle round pick by @Mets break out like this guy did last year #Mets
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The Yanks have ignored their lineup?

In comment 14267803 GF1080 said:

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The Yanks have ignored their lineup?

Lol. No

In comment 14267870 ZGiants98 said:

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In comment 14267803 GF1080 said: Quote: The Yanks have ignored their lineup? Lol. No

The why bring up the Yanks and the strong bullpen they've put together and then alternately suggest no one can win with a strong bullpen and nothing else in the same discussion? It's not like the Yanks rotation is garbage either especially if they Severino straightened out. For the record I am a Mets fan and dislike the Yanks but your assertion that the Yanks can't win with the way their team is setup is laughable.

That I was talking about their rotation and that I feel they still need an ace to be considered the best. Just because I said I feel starting position players and starting pitchers will always hold more value than relievers, does not mean I said the Yankees have neglected both.

I'd bring in Axford on a minor league deal. Non-awful 3.98 FIP 8.9 k/9, stuff is still very good.. FB 95.5 MPH, slider, FG's has him ditching his slider for a cutter? #Mets

evan.longoria3
We are less then a month from the start of spring and once again some of our games biggest starts remain unsigned. Such a shame. It�s seems every day now someone is making up a new analytical tool to devalue players, especially free agents. As fans, why should �value� for your team even be a consideration? It�s not your money, it�s money that players have worked their whole lives to get to that level and be deserving of. Bottom line, fans should want the best players and product on the field for their team. And as players we need to stand strong for what we believe we are worth and continue to fight for the rights we have fought for time and time again.

I'm less about the whole "feel sorry for the players" part..more about the "fans should want the best players and not care about wins per $" part..

Is there a player out there who makes you better?? Can you sign him and still be able to make other moves after (ie. It doesn't preclude you from doing anything else)? Then sign the player.

...and it shouldn't preclude them from making any other moves down the line.

It's not like the NFL where they have a cap yo worry about. You go over the luxury tax thershold a couple years?? Suck it up. Biggest market team to never have paid luxury tax since it's inception.

Look at the top payrolls from 06 and then today. They have all mostly doubled. That�s a pretty big increase in a decade if you ask me. The fact is while super star players haven�t seen a crazy bump middle tier players with out a doubt have - especially relievers. Just because a certain type of player is getting paid more doesn�t mean that there is collusion.

In comment 14267947 ZGiants98 said:

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That I was talking about their rotation and that I feel they still need an ace to be considered the best. Just because I said I feel starting position players and starting pitchers will always hold more value than relievers, does not mean I said the Yankees have neglected both.

Are you suggesting that the Yankees don't have an ace? Luis Severino is a great pitcher and a legit ace.

But he was pretty inconsistent/almost bad second half

In comment 14268056 moze1021 said:

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evan.longoria3 We are less then a month from the start of spring and once again some of our games biggest starts remain unsigned. Such a shame. It�s seems every day now someone is making up a new analytical tool to devalue players, especially free agents. As fans, why should �value� for your team even be a consideration? It�s not your money, it�s money that players have worked their whole lives to get to that level and be deserving of. Bottom line, fans should want the best players and product on the field for their team. And as players we need to stand strong for what we believe we are worth and continue to fight for the rights we have fought for time and time again.

"It�s not your money..."

Hey Evan - who the fuck do you think pays for your salary?!

In comment 14271605 speedywheels said:

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In comment 14268056 moze1021 said: Quote: evan.longoria3 We are less then a month from the start of spring and once again some of our games biggest starts remain unsigned. Such a shame. It�s seems every day now someone is making up a new analytical tool to devalue players, especially free agents. As fans, why should �value� for your team even be a consideration? It�s not your money, it�s money that players have worked their whole lives to get to that level and be deserving of. Bottom line, fans should want the best players and product on the field for their team. And as players we need to stand strong for what we believe we are worth and continue to fight for the rights we have fought for time and time again. "It�s not your money..." Hey Evan - who the fuck do you think pays for your salary?!

Are prices going up or down for fans? Are profits going up or down for owners?

In comment 14271590 bhill410 said:

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But he was pretty inconsistent/almost bad second half

Severino finished the season with a 2.95 FIP and a 5.7 fWAR and a 10.35 K per 9.

The season before he has a 2.98 ERA, 3.07 FIP, 10.71 k per 9 and. 5.8 fWAR. He has electric stuff and is only 24. He�s a legit ace. Now do I think the Yankees need another SP? Yes I do but Severino will more than likely remain their best SP. If the Yankees added another frontline starter then they would be the favorites to win it all.