Big Blue Interactive The Corner Forum  
Back to the Corner

Archived Thread

Barnwell: Giants on the wrong end of 3 of the "best" trades

NoGainDayne : 1/30/2019 1:48 pm
Barnwell is one of the better NFL writers IMO. This article is all about value, what was given up vs. what it provided.

Giants were the giver of assets in the 8th, 10th and 14th best trades for the teams they dealt with this year.

For fair summary reporting they also had the 29th best trade of the season.

Just reporting the facts here but objectively not what anyone wants to see written in regards to their front office.
2018 NFL trade grades: The 30 most impactful of the past 365 days - ( New Window )
Pages: 1 2 <<Prev | Show All |
He's not really putting the Giants on the "wrong" side of these trades  
Mad Mike : 1/30/2019 3:19 pm : link
He's acknowledging that the other teams benefited from the trades. But teams are in different situations, and one team benefiting, doesn't mean the trades didn't also make sense for the Giants, nor does Barnewell suggest the Giants came out poorly, or even comment on the return we got. He's simply commenting on the player acquired, without any judgement on the price received.

Also, he gives Detroit a B- for getting Snacks, and Tampa a B for JPP. It's hardly damming to be on the other side of grades like that.
As mentioned already  
Jeff : 1/30/2019 3:21 pm : link
The trades were as much about cleaning up the locker room and clearing cap space for the Giants. The JPP trade was a home run for the Giants and the other two were more addition by subtraction (salary and locker room). The writer is covering the whole league and looking at them from a 100 mile view as opposed to us Giant fans who are looking from a 100 foot view. Seems pretty cut and dry to me...also why cant a trade work out for both parties involved?
RE: He's not really putting the Giants on the  
NoGainDayne : 1/30/2019 3:33 pm : link
In comment 14281296 Mad Mike said:
Quote:
He's acknowledging that the other teams benefited from the trades. But teams are in different situations, and one team benefiting, doesn't mean the trades didn't also make sense for the Giants, nor does Barnewell suggest the Giants came out poorly, or even comment on the return we got. He's simply commenting on the player acquired, without any judgement on the price received.

Also, he gives Detroit a B- for getting Snacks, and Tampa a B for JPP. It's hardly damming to be on the other side of grades like that.


Sure but you'd probably like to get a higher return than that Giants got given the fact that the players had high impact. Especially on the Snacks and Apple deal.

It also it very easy to blame a number of players for being bad Apples so to speak but if your team has many of them it is more likely a culture problem.
RE: RE: He's not really putting the Giants on the  
giants#1 : 1/30/2019 3:38 pm : link
In comment 14281308 NoGainDayne said:
Quote:
In comment 14281296 Mad Mike said:


Quote:


He's acknowledging that the other teams benefited from the trades. But teams are in different situations, and one team benefiting, doesn't mean the trades didn't also make sense for the Giants, nor does Barnewell suggest the Giants came out poorly, or even comment on the return we got. He's simply commenting on the player acquired, without any judgement on the price received.

Also, he gives Detroit a B- for getting Snacks, and Tampa a B for JPP. It's hardly damming to be on the other side of grades like that.



Sure but you'd probably like to get a higher return than that Giants got given the fact that the players had high impact. Especially on the Snacks and Apple deal.

It also it very easy to blame a number of players for being bad Apples so to speak but if your team has many of them it is more likely a culture problem.


So you think it was smart to sign Stewart, Omameh, Barwin, etc.? :-)
That trade by the Pats to get...  
bw in dc : 1/30/2019 3:40 pm : link
Trent Brown was an absolute thing of beauty.

Let's see - sign 30 year old Nate Solder to a gazillion dollars or give up a 3rd rounder for a very competent Trent Brown? Hmmmmm.

Like most of the rest of the league, the Giants play checkers.
RE: That trade by the Pats to get...  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 1/30/2019 3:59 pm : link
In comment 14281318 bw in dc said:
Quote:
Trent Brown was an absolute thing of beauty.

Let's see - sign 30 year old Nate Solder to a gazillion dollars or give up a 3rd rounder for a very competent Trent Brown? Hmmmmm.

Like most of the rest of the league, the Giants play checkers.


Do you honestly believe Trent Brown would've been "competent" on the Giants? This is a coaching league. Brown gets coached up by a great HC and OL coach, then has his weaknesses limited in an offense where the ball comes out of the QB's hand immediately. I'm fairly certain he would've looked like Ereck Flowers' twin brother on the Giants.
Trent Brown  
Go Terps : 1/30/2019 4:07 pm : link
He might not have been as good on the Giants, because yes, they are a poorly coached team. But he certainly would've cost less than Solder.

I think Gettleman did a really poor job in year one, but trading away Harrison and Apple weren't bad moves. If anything he should have gone farther with the trades.
So whatís Barnwellís angle here?  
The_Boss : 1/30/2019 4:16 pm : link
That DG got railroaded on the trade front?

Would we have been better off continuing to watch Apple, seemingly the only Ohio State DB to suck in the pros, blow cock here and Snacks be a locker room cancer?

They had to go.
the arguing over crap players traded v crap attitude players traded  
giantsFC : 1/30/2019 4:49 pm : link
is priceless on here today.

super slow sports month for NY. and its obvious.
Nobody's  
Pete in MD : 1/30/2019 4:50 pm : link
blindly defending DG about every decision he made but I can't really find fault in most of his trades, two were good, two were iffy but I can see why they were made.

JPP-overpaid, didn't fit the system, not the best attitude. And in true JPP form, he accumulated stats but didn't make his new team any better.

Apple- Over-drafted JAG with a bad attitude and maturity issues. They actually ate his salary from a cap standpoint to be rid of him. He'll be out of the NFL in two years.

Snacks - Best in the biz at stuffing the run, I didn't like the trade but the team was going nowhere, they have younger players that play the same position, he has a big contract, and was apparently a bad locker room guy. I would have liked more for him in return.

Tree- One of the better players on a bad defense. Apparently a natural leader but he has a big contract and might be playing out of position, according to some.
Anyone who thinks Ogletree is part of the solution  
arniefez : 1/30/2019 5:20 pm : link
and an above average ILB has no idea what they're watching. He was horrible for the Rams in 2017 he was just as horrible for the Giants in 2018.

I don't think  
English Alaister : 1/30/2019 5:32 pm : link
The trades we made are particularly unbalanced.

Harrison is a fine player but he wasn't playing well when traded and was due a ton of money. He does have knee problems to boot. I'm not sure Detroit will get a second good year from him.

Apple is probably the one we can look really stupid on but Landon Collins described him as a cancer and lets be honest there probably was fire where there was smoke. I don't think he's a guy you can pay $ to.

JPP I'm good with. He was a poor fit for a 3-4 and Hill looks like a real building block.

Ogletree played well, led in the locker room and made several impact plays. He is well paid though too.

Overall I think you can see that no team massively improved or declined in the big picture. With 3 draft picks to come I think there's a decent chance we come out ahead.
RE: That trade by the Pats to get...  
Jay on the Island : 1/30/2019 5:36 pm : link
In comment 14281318 bw in dc said:
Quote:
Trent Brown was an absolute thing of beauty.

Let's see - sign 30 year old Nate Solder to a gazillion dollars or give up a 3rd rounder for a very competent Trent Brown? Hmmmmm.

Like most of the rest of the league, the Giants play checkers.

You make it sounds like Trent Brown was a sure thing. Brown had weight and injury issues prior to arriving in NE. He had also only played RT in SF. He was acquired to serve as depth originally but moved over to LT after Wynn went on IR. He was also learning from one of the best OL coaches ever.
I don't think the Giants lost the JPP trade  
Jay on the Island : 1/30/2019 5:38 pm : link
I would call it a push. The Giants drafted BJ Hill with that pick. Hill set the franchise rookie sack record and he actually fits in their scheme. His cap number is also $15 million less. Of course he doesn't mention any of that in the article.
In regards  
Pete in MD : 1/30/2019 5:39 pm : link
to Ogletree, Barnwell could have said that he was second on the team in tackles (only three behind Landon Collins) and he led the team in INTs, which was top 5 in the league and most by non-secondary player.
LOL..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/30/2019 5:53 pm : link
Keep up the good work:

Quote:
Anyone who thinks Ogletree is part of the solution
arniefez : 5:20 pm : link : reply
and an above average ILB has no idea what they're watching. He was horrible for the Rams in 2017 he was just as horrible for the Giants in 2018.


Probably the best LB we've had here in several years.
RE: I don't think the Giants lost the JPP trade  
NoGainDayne : 1/30/2019 5:55 pm : link
In comment 14281433 Jay on the Island said:
Quote:
I would call it a push. The Giants drafted BJ Hill with that pick. Hill set the franchise rookie sack record and he actually fits in their scheme. His cap number is also $15 million less. Of course he doesn't mention any of that in the article.


Definitely looks like a push for now. Could swing either way in the coming years.

My biggest issue is really the return for Snacks and the overall feeling like we created a bad environment for a lot of these players then all the good riddance talk and this well we needed to jettison them kind of attitude about them doing well. I'm not even saying that it is totally wrong but it was within the realm of possibility to hire a GM and Coach that changed this to a point where it didn't need to happen and there are some signs that the culture is indeed still bad with the new regime and the trades.

We've had a lot of these problem players, many of which we've invested significant assets in and especially when you see there are environments that they can succeed in i'm not sure good riddance and not looking about what could be going wrong to help these bad seeds grow is the right attitude.

It's denials at this point are flabbergasting and I see the rhetoric move so often from Apple had one good game to now oh he was just lost. That stat listed in the article should not be tossed aside. There was a world where he could have been a good player for us this year.
RE: LOL..  
NoGainDayne : 1/30/2019 6:03 pm : link
In comment 14281444 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
Keep up the good work:



Quote:


Anyone who thinks Ogletree is part of the solution
arniefez : 5:20 pm : link : reply
and an above average ILB has no idea what they're watching. He was horrible for the Rams in 2017 he was just as horrible for the Giants in 2018.



Probably the best LB we've had here in several years.


Ogletree #81 LB by PFF ratings... "washed up" Snacks Harrison #3 DL

Oh and we gave up a 4th rounder for Ogletree and got a 5th rounder.

Snacks also has almost $5M lower cap hit next year than Ogletree.


Personally I don't see how you could be happy about both these trades given the relative value but with the magic thinking people here seem to like engaging in I guess it's not surprising.
Quoting..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/30/2019 6:10 pm : link
PFF rankings??

C'mon man.
Most of the FA moves...  
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/30/2019 6:15 pm : link
and signings didn't work out, but trading Snacks and Apple wasn't about their value - it was about unloading them for something.

Another losing year and Snacks will likely mope in the locker room and start his usual slide in attitude. Apple played terribly this year and he was even put in the best environment for him with his old OSU teammates. I'd be surprised if he stays a starter through next year.

Ogletree finally gave us some playmaking ability at the LB position. Solder and Omameah were signed to try and upgrade the OL.

What we saw was a cleaning out of the locker room and attempts to upgrade areas of serial weakness. At least the moves had a logic behind them. Now, we just need to hit on more of them.
Ogletree is such an interesting player  
Zeke's Alibi : 1/30/2019 6:18 pm : link
Big playmaker, great leader, but gets lost in the run game a lot. He just doesn't have the instincts of a good linebacker.
I get FMiC's position on Ogletree  
ColHowPepper : 1/30/2019 7:25 pm : link
but it wasn't so much the run game, but continuation of a near ten year inability of Giants' LBs to cover routes over the middle, TEs, Slots, you name it. Ogletree was exposed, though I think Bettcher did a better job later in the season of disguising coverages.

I don't think Ogletree has a long term future here. Main issues I have with those taking down the OP (I thought Barnwell did a reasonable job x-neglecting Hill mention) are i) Snacks and those saying how can you evaluate w/o being able to assess what NYG get in return. A 5th? Dunno. Maybe Reese being gone will give us karma? and ii) Apple: though he seems like a dirtbag, my hunch is that he turns out to be a solid corner in this league. Too bad the chemistry was so rotten all around.

What a mess.
PFF is used by most NFL teams  
NoGainDayne : 1/30/2019 7:26 pm : link
and their methodology in terms of tools available to the public is second to none.

They have qualified individuals grading every player on every play and aggregating that information.

If you have a better source of player grades please share.
Jesus..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/30/2019 8:01 pm : link
it is like we have to cover this every time PFF is referenced:

Quote:
PFF is used by most NFL teams
NoGainDayne : 7:26 pm : link : reply
and their methodology in terms of tools available to the public is second to none.

They have qualified individuals grading every player on every play and aggregating that information.

If you have a better source of player grades please share.


There is not a single NFL team that uses PFF for analytical grades. None.

The teams that use PFF services do it for quantitative data. Snap counts. Personnel groupings breakdowns. Split of plays between defense, offense and special teams.

Their methodology for grading players is so filled with assumptions and unqualified graders that it isn't even directional in most cases.

Even their data isn't used by "most" NFL teams. As of the start of the season, only 11 teams use any form of PFF's services.
When did Barnwell ever opine favorably on the Giants?  
WideRight : 1/30/2019 8:19 pm : link

He's a Giants fan with some self-loathing issues
And..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/30/2019 8:30 pm : link
if you are looking for the public version of this data, it doesn't exist in a competent form:

Quote:
If you have a better source of player grades please share


The best source of player ratings are the ones each team does after they breakdown film. You see, they actually know what each player's assignment was supposed to be.
RE: RE: That trade by the Pats to get...  
bw in dc : 1/30/2019 10:42 pm : link
In comment 14281342 shockeyisthebest8056 said:
Quote:
In comment 14281318 bw in dc said:


Quote:


Trent Brown was an absolute thing of beauty.

Let's see - sign 30 year old Nate Solder to a gazillion dollars or give up a 3rd rounder for a very competent Trent Brown? Hmmmmm.

Like most of the rest of the league, the Giants play checkers.



Do you honestly believe Trent Brown would've been "competent" on the Giants? This is a coaching league. Brown gets coached up by a great HC and OL coach, then has his weaknesses limited in an offense where the ball comes out of the QB's hand immediately. I'm fairly certain he would've looked like Ereck Flowers' twin brother on the Giants.


Are you suggesting Hal Hunter is not as good as Dante Scarnecchia? ; )

I get your point. Itís a reasonable one. But I like the chances that Brown would have been a cheap, competent replacement for Flowers. Brown is a nasty run blocker who at least can be counted on to try and care every down.
Article rated 2018 Impact - not best/worst trades or winners/losers  
Jon C. in MD : 1/31/2019 10:16 am : link
Hereís an actual quote from the actual article:

ďIím ordering and grading them in terms of how they impacted the 2018 season as opposed to picking one side or the other.Ē

Heís not weighing the price of the trades, or determining winners or losers, or projecting future impact of either side.

I donít know how you can argue the impact that the Snacks or Eli Apple or JPP trades had on the 2018 season.

Itís amazing how many people will bash a writer for bias or error, etc. without reading what they actually wrote.
Barnwell is a Giants fan  
Bramton1 : 1/31/2019 10:35 am : link
And I feel he goes out of his way to be a little extra critical of them to avoid accusations of bias.
RE: Article rated 2018 Impact - not best/worst trades or winners/losers  
giants#1 : 1/31/2019 10:39 am : link
In comment 14281907 Jon C. in MD said:
Quote:
Hereís an actual quote from the actual article:

ďIím ordering and grading them in terms of how they impacted the 2018 season as opposed to picking one side or the other.Ē

Heís not weighing the price of the trades, or determining winners or losers, or projecting future impact of either side.

I donít know how you can argue the impact that the Snacks or Eli Apple or JPP trades had on the 2018 season.

Itís amazing how many people will bash a writer for bias or error, etc. without reading what they actually wrote.


Good point. BJ Hill didn't impact 2018 at all so no point in mentioning him.
RE: Jesus..  
NoGainDayne : 1/31/2019 10:49 am : link
In comment 14281547 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
it is like we have to cover this every time PFF is referenced:



Quote:


PFF is used by most NFL teams
NoGainDayne : 7:26 pm : link : reply
and their methodology in terms of tools available to the public is second to none.

They have qualified individuals grading every player on every play and aggregating that information.

If you have a better source of player grades please share.



There is not a single NFL team that uses PFF for analytical grades. None.

The teams that use PFF services do it for quantitative data. Snap counts. Personnel groupings breakdowns. Split of plays between defense, offense and special teams.

Their methodology for grading players is so filled with assumptions and unqualified graders that it isn't even directional in most cases.

Even their data isn't used by "most" NFL teams. As of the start of the season, only 11 teams use any form of PFF's services.


This article suggests 30/32 teams pay for PFF. And honestly are you suggesting you know exactly how all these teams use it? What happened to the guy that says we don't know what happens with teams because we don't work inside them and they are secretive and blah blah?

The fact is these kinds of inputs are useful in machine learning processes despite flaws that everyone acknowledges. As long as the methodology is consistent it absolutely provides signaling value. Maybe not to the Fatman system that apparently we should all use. It is way better than than the I like Ogletree for reasons system that you seem to be putting forth. I'm trying to create a real basis for comparison on trade quality is and the bottom line is Snacks is a way better player that we traded for less and also makes less than Ogletree. That's the problem with trying to talk to you, you always want to move the needle and the argument. I engaged you about Ogletree and you want to talk about PFF and instead of responding in kind trying to show a better way to measure why my assertion might be wrong you just try and change the debate. As always.

That's how you end up in arguments saying an the IT guy in Buffalo is qualified to lead an analytics team. He's not and McL backed me up on that thread. You just don't like being called a luddite and talked to in the disrespectful way you talk to others. I get it, you are a bully and can't take what you dish. You are truly an insufferable person and if you are at all like your persona on BBI in real life I feel very sorry for anyone that has to spend time with you.

I don't know how you can even determine that PFF uses "unqualified"  
Ten Ton Hammer : 1/31/2019 10:51 am : link
graders unless you have access to employment records. Every time this topic comes up you creep closer to saying something as fact that you couldn't possibly know.
You continually..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/31/2019 10:57 am : link
call me a Luddite yet are so uninformed regarding PFF.

I said there are only a portion of the teams paying for their STAT services. That's their compilation of snap counts and personnel groupings. PFF also sells film breakdowns to the teams. That's what almost all of them are using. The film breakdowns compile clips and marks them for specific players or situations. It isn't analytic at all - it is edited film, much like a service like Hudl provides to HS and college teams.

You talk about understanding analytics to the point of calling others luddites, yet you consider PFF's grading system "analytics". That alone should preclude you from ever calling another person a dumbass on this board again.

There are zero teams that pay for PFF's grading services. Even a partial owner, Collinsworth, won't say that there are.

You really should get more informed about PFF if you are going to beat your chest, especially about the services they offer.
TTH..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/31/2019 11:02 am : link
please look in-depth at PFF's methodology. They have hundreds of graders, who are not held to some standard of proof that they understand football, look at each play from film and grade what each player was supposed to do.

They assign that player anywhere from a -2 to a +2 score, based on what THEY think the player should have done. Heck, even just screwing up a couple of plays a game on what the intent is pushes the statistical error deviance quite a few points.

There are way too many examples to point to where they rate a player completely different than the teams rate the players, and the teams actually base their grades on known assignments.

Bill Belicheck has called PFF unusable for NFL teams. You really should take a look at their methodology
Obviously I'm not in the locker room  
Sonic Youth : 1/31/2019 11:02 am : link
and have no clue what the dynamics are, but I hated the Eli Apple trade. He has ability and can be a useful player. He was on his rookie contract.

I get why it was done, but I had a gut feeling he'd be a very solid player on the Saints
I think 2018 impact can be argued.  
Pete in MD : 1/31/2019 11:17 am : link
What kind of impact did JPP have in 2018? Tampa Bay's defense stunk with him and stunk without him. Those 12.5 sacks didn't win more games or improve the overall defense from a statistical standpoint. Last in defensive DVOA, 27th in yards/game and total yards, 31st in PPG.

Snacks improved Detroit's run defense according to some metrics but their pass defense declined. Does he deserve credit and blame at the same time? The team didn't become a contender after the trade.

Apple was a least on a good team, who should be playing on Sunday. I'm sure he is better than who they had before as a starter.
RE: You continually..  
NoGainDayne : 1/31/2019 11:19 am : link
In comment 14281966 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
call me a Luddite yet are so uninformed regarding PFF.

I said there are only a portion of the teams paying for their STAT services. That's their compilation of snap counts and personnel groupings. PFF also sells film breakdowns to the teams. That's what almost all of them are using. The film breakdowns compile clips and marks them for specific players or situations. It isn't analytic at all - it is edited film, much like a service like Hudl provides to HS and college teams.

You talk about understanding analytics to the point of calling others luddites, yet you consider PFF's grading system "analytics". That alone should preclude you from ever calling another person a dumbass on this board again.

There are zero teams that pay for PFF's grading services. Even a partial owner, Collinsworth, won't say that there are.

You really should get more informed about PFF if you are going to beat your chest, especially about the services they offer.


Read what I said. I just said most NFL teams pay for PFF.

And i'm talking about broad based signal interpretation in which expert systems like what PFF has is actually a good input. Here's what you don't understand. All data is useful to a good enough AI system. It can determine the signaling value of columns through trial and error. Some columns only work because they signal off other columns but Fatman saying what is a better system than anything right? What's the point of arguing with you when you seem to believe that at your core.

Both McL and BrettNYG10 are familiar with my qualifications. Are you suggesting i'm making up that I've worked in AI for almost 7 years now and analytics for 15? I don't know why you continue to pretend like I don't know what i'm talking about in terms of analytics. This is a weird hill for you to die on.
And I'll retract..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/31/2019 11:20 am : link
this statement:

Quote:
I said there are only a portion of the teams paying for their STAT services.


I said above any PFF services. Their film service is used by nearly every team because it eliminates several entry-level positions that teams were finding difficult to staff up and keep staffed.
Dude..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/31/2019 11:28 am : link
there is a vast difference between you and McL.

Quote:
This is a weird hill for you to die on.


I don't know if it the way you try to present yourself as an expert and continually refer to your qualifications (which is one thing most qualified people don't seemingly have to resort to).

I've maintained two main points about PFF in the way they are viewed by the NFL teams.

- They offer stat compilation that is more cost effective for teams to purchase than compile on their own
- They offer player ratings that are solely used by fans, commentators and publications.

Their stat service is highly thought of. Their film editing is highly thought of.

Their player rankings - they are simply not used by the NFL teams. PFF themselves don't package it for NFL teams.

Why I continually question you is because you seem to present yourself as a person knowledgeable about what analytics teams are using and how they are using, almost as if you have talked to them.

I won't give you my resume, but I'm not in the field of analytics and yet know what services about a third of teams are using and what parts of PFF's service almost all of the teams are using.

That's why it is equal parts amusing and insulting when you use the term luddite.
And let's also..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/31/2019 11:34 am : link
realize that it is often you twisting the argument:

Quote:
That's how you end up in arguments saying an the IT guy in Buffalo is qualified to lead an analytics team


I never said an IT guy in Buffalo was qualified. All I did was tell you that Buffalo set up an analtics team.

It was you who went through the guys' resume and said he wasn't qualified.

Never met the guy. Probably didn't even know his name until you looked it up. But you went to his LinkedIn profile and determined that he wasn't qualified.

And you wonder why I think you're full of shit?
RE: Barnwell thinks something the Giants did sucks.  
santacruzom : 1/31/2019 12:27 pm : link
In comment 14281272 shockeyisthebest8056 said:
Quote:
BREAKING NEWS AT 11! He thinks that even as the parade is going down the Canyon of Heroes.


He's had a lot of recent opportunity to do so.
RE: RE: Barnwell thinks something the Giants did sucks.  
Go Terps : 1/31/2019 12:29 pm : link
In comment 14282102 santacruzom said:
Quote:
In comment 14281272 shockeyisthebest8056 said:


Quote:


BREAKING NEWS AT 11! He thinks that even as the parade is going down the Canyon of Heroes.



He's had a lot of recent opportunity to do so.


It's funny. The team is inarguably pathetic on the field, but some fans still take offense at hearing it rather than pointing their anger where it should be.
RE: LOL..  
Jimmy Googs : 1/31/2019 3:09 pm : link
In comment 14281444 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
Keep up the good work:



Quote:


Anyone who thinks Ogletree is part of the solution
arniefez : 5:20 pm : link : reply
and an above average ILB has no idea what they're watching. He was horrible for the Rams in 2017 he was just as horrible for the Giants in 2018.



Probably the best LB we've had here in several years.


Probably correct but unfortunately being the best NYG linebacker in years is not the barometer to measure him.

Ogletree is probably a slightly above average LB who played slightly below average in 2018.

Although he had 1-2 interceptions that were fairly incredible individual efforts...
I..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/31/2019 3:26 pm : link
agree with this:

Quote:
Probably correct but unfortunately being the best NYG linebacker in years is not the barometer to measure him.

Ogletree is probably a slightly above average LB who played slightly below average in 2018.

Although he had 1-2 interceptions that were fairly incredible individual efforts...


Although, I think he was fairly average. He's a decent piece of a good defense, but isn't a difference maker on a poor one
Yep agree  
Jimmy Googs : 1/31/2019 3:45 pm : link
It is fairly comical what it takes to be the best NYG linebacker actually.

Sure as hell would be nice to find a few nice suprises at LB with some of these extra draft picks DG collected...

RE: I don't think  
Bluesbreaker : 1/31/2019 7:08 pm : link
In comment 14281430 English Alaister said:
Quote:
The trades we made are particularly unbalanced.

Harrison is a fine player but he wasn't playing well when traded and was due a ton of money. He does have knee problems to boot. I'm not sure Detroit will get a second good year from him.

Apple is probably the one we can look really stupid on but Landon Collins described him as a cancer and lets be honest there probably was fire where there was smoke. I don't think he's a guy you can pay $ to.

JPP I'm good with. He was a poor fit for a 3-4 and Hill looks like a real building block.

Ogletree played well, led in the locker room and made several impact plays. He is well paid though too.

Overall I think you can see that no team massively improved or declined in the big picture. With 3 draft picks to come I think there's a decent chance we come out ahead.


I agree with you . Ogletree had a good year we had zero at
LB many LB's get beat in coverage even great ones he had a good season and really came on late the run defense fell off after he got hurt .
Snacks has some issues aside from football Apple never
lived up to his #10 pick and he still hasn't he will not be missed .
RE: And let's also..  
NoGainDayne : 1/31/2019 7:40 pm : link
In comment 14282039 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
realize that it is often you twisting the argument:



Quote:


That's how you end up in arguments saying an the IT guy in Buffalo is qualified to lead an analytics team



I never said an IT guy in Buffalo was qualified. All I did was tell you that Buffalo set up an analtics team.

It was you who went through the guys' resume and said he wasn't qualified.

Never met the guy. Probably didn't even know his name until you looked it up. But you went to his LinkedIn profile and determined that he wasn't qualified.

And you wonder why I think you're full of shit?


It was discussed on the thread with many people with knowledge of what it takes to run an analytics team, they all agreed the guy was not qualified and expounded on the reasons that there was a sufficient amount of evidence for us all to conclusively know that. Here you are moving the argument and now facts to suit the narrative you want.
And again..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/31/2019 7:46 pm : link
you made that determination based on a LinkedIn profile.

And you still don't see the error in that.
RE: RE: That trade by the Pats to get...  
chopperhatch : 1/31/2019 8:18 pm : link
In comment 14281432 Jay on the Island said:
Quote:
In comment 14281318 bw in dc said:


Quote:


Trent Brown was an absolute thing of beauty.

Let's see - sign 30 year old Nate Solder to a gazillion dollars or give up a 3rd rounder for a very competent Trent Brown? Hmmmmm.

Like most of the rest of the league, the Giants play checkers.


You make it sounds like Trent Brown was a sure thing. Brown had weight and injury issues prior to arriving in NE. He had also only played RT in SF. He was acquired to serve as depth originally but moved over to LT after Wynn went on IR. He was also learning from one of the best OL coaches ever.


bw in dc:

Shit  
chopperhatch : 1/31/2019 8:19 pm : link
Bw in dc:

Pages: 1 2 <<Prev | Show All |
Back to the Corner