Barnwell is one of the better NFL writers IMO. This article is all about value, what was given up vs. what it provided.
Giants were the giver of assets in the 8th, 10th and 14th best trades for the teams they dealt with this year.
For fair summary reporting they also had the 29th best trade of the season.
Just reporting the facts here but objectively not what anyone wants to see written in regards to their front office.
2018 NFL trade grades: The 30 most impactful of the past 365 days - (
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Eli Apple was not a good player here and while he played better once he changed scenery, I am still very glad he is gone. He was part of the problem here, not the solution.
The quality of sports journalism is reflected by the number of thoughtless puff pieces void of any analysis. This is a good example of 'seat of the pants' sports journalism.
Agreed. The JPP trade has already produced BJ Hill and Lauletta aside from the salary dump. No clue what they are going to do with the picks accrued from the Harrison and Apple trades yet.
JPP had nice sack #s, but the TB defense was still awful with him. Plus BJ Hill looked solid, especially for a 3rd round pick and is much cheaper going forward.
While Hill probably doesn't match JPP's sack production over the next 1-2 years, I think there's a solid chance he'll be a more productive overall player and almost certainly a better value.
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trades that haven't even produced the other asset yet.
The quality of sports journalism is reflected by the number of thoughtless puff pieces void of any analysis. This is a good example of 'seat of the pants' sports journalism.
How is this void of analysis?
"The Saints allowed a passer rating of 92.7 with Apple on the field, a mark that fell to 111.5 when Apple was on the sidelines."
"JPP netted the Bucs their best single season from an edge rusher in more than a decade."
"Before acquiring Harrison, the Lions were allowing opposing teams to average 5.3 yards per carry and convert 25.5 percent of their runs into first downs. After getting Snacks away from the Giants, though, Matt Patricia's defense allowed just 3.0 yards per carry and first downs just 15.4 percent of the time while Harrison was on the field. The 30-year-old tackle even chipped in with 3.5 sacks and seven knockdowns."
At least he had a good draft (unless you're one of the QB or nothing zealots).
re: Snacks - key phrase was "while he was on the field". Aside from any locker room issues he might've been, I think part of the issue is he was only on the field for ~50% of the D snaps and trending the wrong way.
re: Apple - what are league average passer ratings againts numbers? Was he the only thing that changed or did they get some other players healthy and/or change their offensive philosophy to try and use more time (didn't Ingram return around then?)?
The cap relief of those three alont is worth it to me.
He doesn't even mention BJ Hill in the JPP trade, and while Snacks is given a glowing write-up even though he freely admits the Lions D stayed terrible, Ogletree produced two "short-term" pick 6's which he guesses was fun while it lasted.
TB: 32nd without JPP, 32nd with him.
Det: 19th without Snacks, 27th with him (for part of the season.)
NO: 8th without Apple, 11th with him (also only part of the season.)
NYG: 24th last season, 24th this season.
So using the same Ogletree logic, losing Snacks and Apple had the same lack of impact as adding AO did.
TB: 32nd without JPP, 32nd with him.
Det: 19th without Snacks, 27th with him (for part of the season.)
NO: 8th without Apple, 11th with him (also only part of the season.)
NYG: 24th last season, 24th this season.
So using the same Ogletree logic, losing Snacks and Apple had the same lack of impact as adding AO did.
So it is your position that the best way to evaluate an individual defender is on team defense?
Harrison is elite as his position, he missed zero games as a Giant, and he just now turned 30. If being 30 is a crime, then why the hell are we crying tears over not signing a 35 year old tackle in the other thread like it's a mortal sin.
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how the Ogletree trade doesn't use any advanced player-specific analytics but the other NYG-related trades do. He uses DVOA so I will too:
TB: 32nd without JPP, 32nd with him.
Det: 19th without Snacks, 27th with him (for part of the season.)
NO: 8th without Apple, 11th with him (also only part of the season.)
NYG: 24th last season, 24th this season.
So using the same Ogletree logic, losing Snacks and Apple had the same lack of impact as adding AO did.
So it is your position that the best way to evaluate an individual defender is on team defense?
I think he was simply pointing out that Barnwell used team D to knock Ogletree, but then looked at (cherry picked) individual performance for JPP, Snacks, Apple.
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how the Ogletree trade doesn't use any advanced player-specific analytics but the other NYG-related trades do. He uses DVOA so I will too:
TB: 32nd without JPP, 32nd with him.
Det: 19th without Snacks, 27th with him (for part of the season.)
NO: 8th without Apple, 11th with him (also only part of the season.)
NYG: 24th last season, 24th this season.
So using the same Ogletree logic, losing Snacks and Apple had the same lack of impact as adding AO did.
So it is your position that the best way to evaluate an individual defender is on team defense?
Nope, I'm pointing out the flaws in the author's evaluation. Ogletree was a bad trade because the Giants DVOA didn't improve but he cherry-picks other stats to show why JPP, Apple, and Snacks were valuable pick-ups. Well, none of those team's DVOA improved either. They all are actually worse.
while Snacks is given a glowing write-up even though he freely admits the Lions D stayed terrible
Their run defense was unquestionably better, by a significant margin.
Evan Silva
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#Lions allowed 5.99 yards per carry to RBs in Weeks 1-7.
Since acquiring Snacks Harrison, they've held RBs to 3.97 YPC.
Since acquiring Snacks, they've allowed 11.1 yards per pass attempt.
Before Snacks, they allowed 8.05 YPA.
Since acquiring Snacks, they're 0-3 & outsored 86-45.
Steve Cornell
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12 Nov 2018
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Im a big fan Evan. Dont think Snacks makes Detroit 3 yards per pass worse over time. Sample size should be noted. Detroit is in a spiral right now.
Evan Silva
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12 Nov 2018
Correct. Lack of consistent pass rush & injuries in secondary are primarily to blame for opponent spike in yards per pass attempt.
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In comment 14281209 Pete in MD said:
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how the Ogletree trade doesn't use any advanced player-specific analytics but the other NYG-related trades do. He uses DVOA so I will too:
TB: 32nd without JPP, 32nd with him.
Det: 19th without Snacks, 27th with him (for part of the season.)
NO: 8th without Apple, 11th with him (also only part of the season.)
NYG: 24th last season, 24th this season.
So using the same Ogletree logic, losing Snacks and Apple had the same lack of impact as adding AO did.
So it is your position that the best way to evaluate an individual defender is on team defense?
I think he was simply pointing out that Barnwell used team D to knock Ogletree, but then looked at (cherry picked) individual performance for JPP, Snacks, Apple.
Or what giants#1 just said (I swear that's not my dupe.)
Apple was a friggen headache.
Snacks was not considered to be a building block.
Harrison is elite as his position, he missed zero games as a Giant, and he just now turned 30. If being 30 is a crime, then why the hell are we crying tears over not signing a 35 year old tackle in the other thread like it's a mortal sin.
Personally, I wasn't against not signing Whitworth. That said, not all 30 year olds are equal. IIRC, Snacks' snap counts have been trending downwards and he only played in ~50% of the games. So while he's top 5 at what he does, he only does that for half of the D snaps.
Stopping the run is generally not a highly sought after skill. You can argue whether that should change or not, but Snacks was elite in that regard when the Giants signed him and still didn't even get top 10 DT money. I don't think things have shifted since then much either since its becoming even more important for a D to get quick pressure, particularly up the middle with all the quick passing games around.
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while Snacks is given a glowing write-up even though he freely admits the Lions D stayed terrible
Their run defense was unquestionably better, by a significant margin.
Evan Silva
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#Lions allowed 5.99 yards per carry to RBs in Weeks 1-7.
Since acquiring Snacks Harrison, they've held RBs to 3.97 YPC.
Since acquiring Snacks, they've allowed 11.1 yards per pass attempt.
Before Snacks, they allowed 8.05 YPA.
Since acquiring Snacks, they're 0-3 & outsored 86-45.
Steve Cornell
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12 Nov 2018
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Im a big fan Evan. Dont think Snacks makes Detroit 3 yards per pass worse over time. Sample size should be noted. Detroit is in a spiral right now.
Evan Silva
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@evansilva
12 Nov 2018
Correct. Lack of consistent pass rush & injuries in secondary are primarily to blame for opponent spike in yards per pass attempt.
And their passing defense was unquestionably worse, by an even larger margin.
Harrison is elite as his position, he missed zero games as a Giant, and he just now turned 30. If being 30 is a crime, then why the hell are we crying tears over not signing a 35 year old tackle in the other thread like it's a mortal sin.
By some accounts Snacks was a locker room move. If you consider that he was a pain in the ass, not a leader, and also making a lot of money the move makes a lot of sense despite his talent.
The biggest moves they made were culture moves. I don't think I have to explain thus in regards to Apple and JPP.
When you look it becomes obvious, and I never really understood why it went over the heads of so many Giants fans. It was about dumping assholes.
Barwin's not worth the handwringing.
Martin/Omameh/Stewart have to make you question DG though. Or the Giants pro-scouts if they recommended the former 2.
Two teams can benefit from the same trade. Time will better tell how well the Giants benefited from the trades.
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In comment 14281209 Pete in MD said:
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how the Ogletree trade doesn't use any advanced player-specific analytics but the other NYG-related trades do. He uses DVOA so I will too:
TB: 32nd without JPP, 32nd with him.
Det: 19th without Snacks, 27th with him (for part of the season.)
NO: 8th without Apple, 11th with him (also only part of the season.)
NYG: 24th last season, 24th this season.
So using the same Ogletree logic, losing Snacks and Apple had the same lack of impact as adding AO did.
So it is your position that the best way to evaluate an individual defender is on team defense?
I think he was simply pointing out that Barnwell used team D to knock Ogletree, but then looked at (cherry picked) individual performance for JPP, Snacks, Apple.
I find it pretty funny that you are using the idea of cherry picking here. You are cherry picking an entire side (the Giants perspective) by essentially disavowing productive stays that these players had elsewhere.
Barnwell is a well respected writer, with no ax to grind. Explain it away all you want, and many here love to justify every move but this is not the kind of thing you want written about your team. The other thing that everyone seems to love to gloss over is that we have all these players labeled as "problems" that don't seem to be problems on other teams.
As for the former, I think it was a combo of: a) his salary, b) his declining # of snaps, and c) the FO/coaching staff's views on Hill/Tomlinson. If they think Tomlinson is the NT answer going forward, then it made sense to increase his snaps there and get him as comfortable as possible in the position moving forward.
I think moving Snacks was more about the long term view of the team than short term (2018), which (IMO) was the correct decision at that point.
For Snacks, Apple and JPP, he uses their personal stats to support that the trades were good for the Bucs, Lions and Saints. For Ogletree, he uses the Giants total defensive team stats to make the case he didn't have much of an impact, as well as a snarky comment about two pick 6's.
Scoring points seems to be something to mock.
I find it pretty funny that you are using the idea of cherry picking here. You are cherry picking an entire side (the Giants perspective) by essentially disavowing productive stays that these players had elsewhere.
Barnwell is a well respected writer, with no ax to grind. Explain it away all you want, and many here love to justify every move but this is not the kind of thing you want written about your team. The other thing that everyone seems to love to gloss over is that we have all these players labeled as "problems" that don't seem to be problems on other teams.
I didn't disavow anyone's stats. But in terms of JPP in particular, how can he evaluate the trade without even discussing BJ Hill?
Of course the other deals will look lopsided, the Giants haven't even selected the players with those picks yet!
And as for players not being "problems" elsewhere, Snacks wasn't exactly known as a strong leader in the Jets locker room and the Giants got DRC "cheaply" because of his prior locker room issues. Who knows with Apple, he's only been with the Saints for half a season.
The new regime was left with a mess and needed to be drastic. Some moves worked and some didn't, but it was the first year. How was the draft? One of the best we've seen in a long time. Let's see what happens this year. From my perspective, it was gonna take DG and PS 3 years to turn this around. the idea that they were going to the playoffs was a pipe dream and still is. I make the trek up to every home game from MD hoping, but not expecting miracles.
Maybe the change of scenery helped. Maybe those teams have a higher tolerance for locker room cancers. Could be other reasons as well. The fact that they our new GM decided to move on from them doesn't mean they weren't problems here.
All I said to begin was that objectively you'd rather not be on a list like this. You'd rather be written about on the good side of these trades or not at all.
Just a little more for the Gettleman crusaders to chew on. I'm personally not reading too much into it nor did I even say anything about him specifically.
The author clearly stated that he wasn't judging the trades with winners and losers, so there really isn't necessarily a "wrong end." And it is a list of the trades that have been the most impactful to this point, not the "best" trades.
Yes, he probably should have mentioned Hill in the JPP trade, but he's not going to talk about future draft picks as being impactful to this point.
Also, he gives Detroit a B- for getting Snacks, and Tampa a B for JPP. It's hardly damming to be on the other side of grades like that.
Also, he gives Detroit a B- for getting Snacks, and Tampa a B for JPP. It's hardly damming to be on the other side of grades like that.
Sure but you'd probably like to get a higher return than that Giants got given the fact that the players had high impact. Especially on the Snacks and Apple deal.
It also it very easy to blame a number of players for being bad Apples so to speak but if your team has many of them it is more likely a culture problem.
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He's acknowledging that the other teams benefited from the trades. But teams are in different situations, and one team benefiting, doesn't mean the trades didn't also make sense for the Giants, nor does Barnewell suggest the Giants came out poorly, or even comment on the return we got. He's simply commenting on the player acquired, without any judgement on the price received.
Also, he gives Detroit a B- for getting Snacks, and Tampa a B for JPP. It's hardly damming to be on the other side of grades like that.
Sure but you'd probably like to get a higher return than that Giants got given the fact that the players had high impact. Especially on the Snacks and Apple deal.
It also it very easy to blame a number of players for being bad Apples so to speak but if your team has many of them it is more likely a culture problem.
So you think it was smart to sign Stewart, Omameh, Barwin, etc.? :-)
Let's see - sign 30 year old Nate Solder to a gazillion dollars or give up a 3rd rounder for a very competent Trent Brown? Hmmmmm.
Like most of the rest of the league, the Giants play checkers.
Let's see - sign 30 year old Nate Solder to a gazillion dollars or give up a 3rd rounder for a very competent Trent Brown? Hmmmmm.
Like most of the rest of the league, the Giants play checkers.
Do you honestly believe Trent Brown would've been "competent" on the Giants? This is a coaching league. Brown gets coached up by a great HC and OL coach, then has his weaknesses limited in an offense where the ball comes out of the QB's hand immediately. I'm fairly certain he would've looked like Ereck Flowers' twin brother on the Giants.
I think Gettleman did a really poor job in year one, but trading away Harrison and Apple weren't bad moves. If anything he should have gone farther with the trades.
Would we have been better off continuing to watch Apple, seemingly the only Ohio State DB to suck in the pros, blow cock here and Snacks be a locker room cancer?
They had to go.
super slow sports month for NY. and its obvious.
JPP-overpaid, didn't fit the system, not the best attitude. And in true JPP form, he accumulated stats but didn't make his new team any better.
Apple- Over-drafted JAG with a bad attitude and maturity issues. They actually ate his salary from a cap standpoint to be rid of him. He'll be out of the NFL in two years.
Snacks - Best in the biz at stuffing the run, I didn't like the trade but the team was going nowhere, they have younger players that play the same position, he has a big contract, and was apparently a bad locker room guy. I would have liked more for him in return.
Tree- One of the better players on a bad defense. Apparently a natural leader but he has a big contract and might be playing out of position, according to some.
Harrison is a fine player but he wasn't playing well when traded and was due a ton of money. He does have knee problems to boot. I'm not sure Detroit will get a second good year from him.
Apple is probably the one we can look really stupid on but Landon Collins described him as a cancer and lets be honest there probably was fire where there was smoke. I don't think he's a guy you can pay $ to.
JPP I'm good with. He was a poor fit for a 3-4 and Hill looks like a real building block.
Ogletree played well, led in the locker room and made several impact plays. He is well paid though too.
Overall I think you can see that no team massively improved or declined in the big picture. With 3 draft picks to come I think there's a decent chance we come out ahead.
Let's see - sign 30 year old Nate Solder to a gazillion dollars or give up a 3rd rounder for a very competent Trent Brown? Hmmmmm.
Like most of the rest of the league, the Giants play checkers.
You make it sounds like Trent Brown was a sure thing. Brown had weight and injury issues prior to arriving in NE. He had also only played RT in SF. He was acquired to serve as depth originally but moved over to LT after Wynn went on IR. He was also learning from one of the best OL coaches ever.