The deal being close to be finalized between Dallas and New York is Kristaps Porzingis, Courtney Lee, Tim Hardaway Jr. for Dennis Smith Jr., DeAndre Jordan, Wes Matthews, and a pick, per league sources.
The Knicks would also have to add one $1.5M player to make salaries work.
Exactly. The Knicks have obviously been planning this for a while, KP got wind of it and wanted to meet to find out what the hell is going on, and Perry and Mills used Wojnarowski to make him look like the bad guy. Gross.
The deal being close to be finalized between Dallas and New York is Kristaps Porzingis, Courtney Lee, Tim Hardaway Jr. for Dennis Smith Jr., DeAndre Jordan, Wes Matthews, and a pick, per league sources.
The Knicks would also have to add one $1.5M player to make salaries work.
Exactly. The Knicks have obviously been planning this for a while, KP got wind of it and wanted to meet to find out what the hell is going on, and Perry and Mills used Wojnarowski to make him look like the bad guy. Gross.
Dolan is going to need one of those bullet proof Popemobiles to get around town. They were already a full on shitshow, but they managed to top their own record here.
I can't see how they couldn't have done better. They dump THJ's salary, but I actually think he's a good fit on Dallas. Dennis Smith looks like a "good player on a bad team" kind of guy.
Brian WindhorstVerified accountJ @WindhorstESPN
The Knicks are on way toward creating 2 max salary slots for next summer. When today started they didnt even have space for 1. They are preparing to swing big.
Every time you think the Knicks couldn't possibly sink lower, they hop in the DSRV and go another thousand feet down. Can't wait to see them fall to 5 in the lottery.
You could argue they should have traded him during the 2017 draft if this was going to happen anyway.
But I dont think this is a bad trade. KPs attitude has been troubling & hes often hurt. Knick fans are just so beaten down that KP was hope. I like Perry & Fizdale, I trust what they are doing.
Every time you think the Knicks couldn't possibly sink lower, they hop in the DSRV and go another thousand feet down. Can't wait to see them fall to 5 in the lottery.
this happens. Great now we have room for 2 max contracts. I already know what's going to happen. All the stars will go elsewhere and the Knicks will panic and give good but not great players huge deals and we will be fighting for the 8th seed. Why not use Porzingis to get Davis?
Think about this- the Mavs got Luka and KP for Trae Young and taking on bad contracts and a pick between 10-15 this year and whatever garbage the send the Knicks.
And the Knicks use a 22 year old all star to dump 2 shitty contracts they gave out.
It was. I'm disappointed, but not in a hysterical state over this. It will be fun to listen to all the media folks who said KP was too injury-prone to lead us anywhere do the 180 and say we're doomed forever without him. It all boils down to this summer - a high pick and all the money in the world. It was all gonna boil down to this summer, one way or another.
but are you guys mad at the compensation, or that he was traded at all? The haul sucks but he seems like a problematic player both in attitude but more importantly, health.
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During his meeting with the Knicks, Kristaps Porzingis indicated he wouldnt re-sign with the Pelicans if dealt there, per sources. It doesnt matter with Dallas acquiring KP, but along with Lonzo Ball, thats two young players not thrilled about possibly playing in New Orleans.
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During his meeting with the Knicks, Kristaps Porzingis indicated he wouldnt re-sign with the Pelicans if dealt there, per sources. It doesnt matter with Dallas acquiring KP, but along with Lonzo Ball, thats two young players not thrilled about possibly playing in New Orleans.
Oh great it's like yeah, what's your solution to the player not being attractive because he might not sign some place. Dump him for a shitty return! Fantastic logic!
They can probably flip Jordan and Matthews before the deadline. Smith, I don't know what the plan would be with him.
Step one of *what*?! This seems a lot like the underwear gnomes in South Park.
Since Jordan is an expiring, and Capela is gone for most of the season, don't you think the Rockets will come calling with an offer of Knight plus filler and a couple 1st rounders? Granted, they aren't premium picks, but they have trade value too (see Boston).
Boston itself might like an inside presence who doesn't hurt their cap situation going forward- but would likely be wary of dealing with the Knicks who could use the cap space to steal Irving.
The Knicks could also use either player in a 3-way deal to give another team an expiring in exchange for picks and young players (and smaller expiring deals).
Porzingis was always crying or bitching about something.... and is ALWAYS hurt. A 73 big man with lower limb injuries just dont magically get healthy over time.
If they turn and trade Jordan (hello Toronto) and get a pick somehow.. this will work out.
DSJ may not be your cup of tea... but he will be the man on that team which is good for his mentality.
The way the NBA works I think they have intel someone is coming this summer, most likely Durant, and he needed the room to recruit Kyrie, Thompson, etc.
I have a feeling we're looking at KD + one hand picked running mate of his + Zion/Barrett + Knox + Robinson
Giving anyone a max deal is risky. KP if healthy is already the best stretch rim protector in the nba. I dont get this deal... I only pray the Knicks have something up their sleeve but man, this one is tough to take. Why not just let hardaway expire in two years and just keep building this thing organically. Id rather win 30 games next year with no max signings and just keep at this. But who knows...
RE: I don't believe this is the 3 stooges Knicks...
The way the NBA works I think they have intel someone is coming this summer, most likely Durant, and he needed the room to recruit Kyrie, Thompson, etc.
I have a feeling we're looking at KD + one hand picked running mate of his + Zion/Barrett + Knox + Robinson
Unfortunately Ive come to grips a long time ago with the reality that Im going to live my life on this planet without ever witnessing a Knick NBA championship.
the record, KP told the Knicks flat out he would not be signing a deal after this season.
Any other tidbits there, Mr. Dan?
All I got for now. Text from someone who works at MSG (a friend) who doesn't work directly for the Knicks but has given me some tidbits before. He told them he would sign a QO and play out next season. They weren't willing to take that chance/call his bluff.
Shams saying KP will sign a qualifying offer with the Mavs.
a max deal IMO. Let's see what 1st round pick they are getting too. If it's this years 1st that's not a bad haul especially if they can attract Durant in the summer.
KP didn't want the heat that comes with NY and he and family didn't trust the Knicks and wanted to get away from them.
Makes sense they didn't rust the Knicks why would anyone and what we've seen from KP kind of backups what Hahn is saying about Porzingis being a sensitive guy maybe not a NY guy.
Hanh also saying this nothing to do with Kanter and that KP and Kanter do not have any relationship good or bad. The Kanter stuff was a non factor.
It means he'll be an unrestricted free agent in 2020.
as many. He flashed "unicorn" ability, but his injury history and his height gave me concerns that he would ever be able to be a heavy-minute, full-season type of player for the long-term.
I was okay trying to sell high on him.
But for a salary dump? Oof.
Dennis Smith, Jr., can jump out of the gym. He's exciting. I don't think he's a winning player. He isn't a good enough FT shooter or 3-point shooter, and he isn't a good enough facilitator for how reckless he is with the ball.
If it's true and there's no reason to believe it's not. That KP and family told the Knicks they were playing out to UFA. The Knicks did what they had to and were smart to do it quickly. The longer they waited the less the return would have been because KP was limiting the teams he'd sign long term with.
That was his claim. He's yet to do it right? He's rejected nothing other than verbally committing long term to the Knicks. Per Hahn he wanted out of NY.
the NBA has gotten very loose within its own inner circles about telegraphing moves and knowing what's coming next.
When I say everyone I don't mean fans, but executives, agents and people within the league. I think everyone knew LeBron was going back to Cleveland, LeBron was then going to LA, Durant was going to GS, Davis is going to the Lakers and Durant is coming here.
I don't know how many times it has been posted on this site (probably in the thousands by now), but his deal for next year is only guaranteed for about $2M. Peanuts.
someone said, KP has missed 140 games in three years, and has a history of lower body injuries. But this is still a big risk. Dolan is counting on two great players signing this summer on max contracts. But as many others have also said, that is a quite risky plan given how poor the Knicks have been for decades. Dolan is also counting on at least a top three pick.
That was his claim. He's yet to do it right? He's rejected nothing other than verbally committing long term to the Knicks. Per Hahn he wanted out of NY.
Yeah, that is all I was saying yesterday. Odds are he will sign long term but it wasn't a guarantee. It'll be interesting to ses if ue follows through.
and it goes back a ways. News travels fast around the league. They were never going to get fair value for him. They did the best they could. It was not a salary dump, but they took advantage of the situation to clear two big salary issues. At least they have the opportunity to sign two stars AND they still have Knox and theoretically, their PG in Smith. Frankly, theyve made far worse trades
I don't know why but I've had this feeling for a while that
is finally going in the right direction. Clear out the dead weight. Get rid of the players that do not want to be here. Bring in people who want to be here, draft better and 2 years have this thing turned around.
Sounds like KP will do whatever it takes to get to UFA. Thank god Fizdale spent that week in Latvia....
Lets dream big here. Knicks get a top 3 pick. Trade the pick, Knox, Smith and Frank for Anthony Davis. Can they knicks still squeeze two maxes are close to it and create their own big 3?
is finally going in the right direction. Clear out the dead weight. Get rid of the players that do not want to be here. Bring in people who want to be here, draft better and 2 years have this thing turned around.
is finally going in the right direction. Clear out the dead weight. Get rid of the players that do not want to be here. Bring in people who want to be here, draft better and 2 years have this thing turned around.
This has seemed to be the plan for the past 15 years. The fish stinks from the head. While Little Jimmy is there, what makes you think anything will be different than the plan to go after LeBron?
Will the Knicks be able to flip Jordan for a pick or does he have no value due to his cap number?
The guy is averaging 11 and 13. Why wouldn't they be able to sell him for something at least? He's worth giving up some assets for even if it's a rental. Try and get a good role player for him.
That's not going to happen. If they sign Kemba, KD ain't coming, and if they sign KD first, they're going to do a helluva lot better with the other contract than Kemba Walker.
Don't even know what NBA team I'd have the stomach to root for. But holy fucking hell.
Two years ago, i gave up on my first NY franchise. This wasn't that hard. Since I live in South Jersey, I am a fan of the Sixers. I am still a fan of the three other sports for NY teams.
But thats a fantastic trade for the Knicks. Getting expiring contracts and Dennis Smith? That has to be attractive to someone like Durant. They now can sell him on young guys like Smith and Knox. And cap space to add another star
That's not going to happen. If they sign Kemba, KD ain't coming, and if they sign KD first, they're going to do a helluva lot better with the other contract than Kemba Walker.
Forget Kemba then. Kyrie. If they got Kyrie and Durant with that space. I think you have to appreciate this deal. So, how good this deal really is still contingent...
RE: If this results in us getting Kemba and Durant
Prefer all of Kyrie/Klay/Boogie. Hell, I think I'd even like a Mirotic/Vucevic more.
On a team with Durant + a top 3 pick, I think I'd even like Bledsoe more than Kemba. (No, I would not give Bledsoe a max deal...I'm just saying fit-wise)
RE: RE: RE: If this results in us getting Kemba and Durant
The only way this trade makes any sense is if the free agents that the Knicks sign next year are better than Porzingis
If they get Durant and Leonard, or Kyrie etc, then this is a great trade
It is hard to evaluate without knowing what the Knicks will do moving forward
If the Knicks have Durant, Leonard, Zion ( or another top pick) that is a great start
Perhaps they can get a third top player to join them like the Heat did
RE: RE: RE: RE: If this results in us getting Kemba and Durant
If they got Kyrie and Durant with that space. I think you have to appreciate this deal. So, how good this deal really is still contingent...
What have the Knicks ever done that gives you the slightest bit of confidence that they could pull that off?
Faith and possibility are two different things bro. I get the pessimism, but it's too early to really judge. This summer is the real test of this FO cohort.
It signals that the drooling idiots who run the Knicks think they're going to sign Durant and someone else, but if the Three Stooges sign Durant I'll eat my entire wardrobe.
It's gone to shit. Here is a video of of Tracy McGrady saying that the Knicks have to trade two of the players acquired, referring to Matthews and Jordan, in order to sign two max contracts this offseason. They have expiring deals why would the Knicks have to trade them to spend this offseason? Link - ( New Window )
Or KP knee is shot. Then as a fan who has watched 30 full and 10 partials this year (yes my favorite team in all sports) really is going to have a hard time with this one. We will be the laughing stock not just of the league but all sports. Now start moving these expiring contracts to playoff teams. Better not just sit on their hands. This one hurts fellas.
This is Charlie brown kicking a football all over again
We'll know if we just took a short cut to contention, or if we're screwed forever. I'm sure most of us are leaning toward the latter, but I'm willing to see how the draft and free agency unfolds.
as many. He flashed "unicorn" ability, but his injury history and his height gave me concerns that he would ever be able to be a heavy-minute, full-season type of player for the long-term.
I was okay trying to sell high on him.
But for a salary dump? Oof.
Dennis Smith, Jr., can jump out of the gym. He's exciting. I don't think he's a winning player. He isn't a good enough FT shooter or 3-point shooter, and he isn't a good enough facilitator for how reckless he is with the ball.
Couldnt have said it better. KP isnt a guy who can just take over a game by himself. His low post game is soft, he gets hurt a lot...if we get Zion and two maxes out of this, Im thrilled. There is no way ft hat a 7'3" player with a game predicated on movement and jump shots is going to last that long in this league.
We wanted this guy to have a Dirk career, but KP was never that.
We have KP under control for one more year. What is the rush to do this now? The Pelicans are doing that with AD. What exactly is the rush?
We could find any number of teams this summer to take on Hardaway and Lee with KP. Why not be sure we can get the players first? Ugh.
once they decided to trade him, they had to do it before the trade deadline next. Only way they could do it this summer is if he agreed to a sign-and-trade which is risky. Of course you can still kill them for the return and all the dumb moves that got them here.
If Mills and Perry cant persuade an Alpha to come to MSG with anyone you want to play with and turn this around with 2 max contracts in hand, then the Knicks will never really be any good again.
RE: RE: To those that like this, why not do it this summer?
We have KP under control for one more year. What is the rush to do this now? The Pelicans are doing that with AD. What exactly is the rush?
We could find any number of teams this summer to take on Hardaway and Lee with KP. Why not be sure we can get the players first? Ugh.
I don't understand this either. Why do it so quickly? They could have waited and perhaps shopped around for a better offer.
KP is a RFA this summer. That makes it VERY hard to package him with other players to do a deal like this to shed Lee and THJ. There's a week until the deadline so maybe they could've waited until then but what other teams have expirings that match THJ and Lee and would take them on + have a young player the Knicks clearly covet in DSJ.
It signals that the drooling idiots who run the Knicks think they're going to sign Durant and someone else, but if the Three Stooges sign Durant I'll eat my entire wardrobe.
I have no view on whether the Knicks can/will sign Durant, but someone should sticky this so that if they do, Greg will have to eat his entire wardrobe.
May not be much of a meal, come to think of it ... :-)
Even if you look on the brightside of this awful trade- how can you trust the Knicks regime? And Porzingis can say he will play it out until UFA. Call his bluff on that and offer a full max. He's willing to bet 140 million on it? I highly highly doubt it and would bet alot of money he will be signing that contract this summer.
They did the same bullshit in 2010. Why not wait until you have the commitment and then do whatever it takes to create the space?
This may work out but I think its a stupid bet. And they just moved Porzingis to clear salary cap. Think about that....
Didnt have the new draft format. 14% for a number 1 pick is not a good strategy now. They did it with higher odds. NBA didnt like it and changed the selection process to stop tanking. Might not be the best strategy now.
If Mills and Perry cant persuade an Alpha to come to MSG with anyone you want to play with and turn this around with 2 max contracts in hand, then the Knicks will never really be any good again.
This is not true at all.
If they keep building through the draft and develop young talent like Philly and Boston did they can be a contender again
Even if you look on the brightside of this awful trade- how can you trust the Knicks regime? And Porzingis can say he will play it out until UFA. Call his bluff on that and offer a full max. He's willing to bet 140 million on it? I highly highly doubt it and would bet alot of money he will be signing that contract this summer.
They did the same bullshit in 2010. Why not wait until you have the commitment and then do whatever it takes to create the space?
This may work out but I think its a stupid bet. And they just moved Porzingis to clear salary cap. Think about that....
agree with all this. You can't trust these morons - Mills especially.
They did something similar, on a MUCH smaller scale, with the Wily trade. He wasn't happy with playing time - and he was shipped out pretty soon after.
If you're THAT sure you're getting somebody this summer - you use other assets to clear the contracts. Not KP. It's just dumb process.
A lot of us were skeptical of this "new" regime....seems our concerns were valid.
Philly tanked for multiple years and stayed the course.
I just don't trust management to stay patient.
PHilly (Hinkie) not only had a clear plan, but the risk they took resulted in two superstar talents(Simmons and Embiid) that didn't even play in their rookie seasons (with Embiid missing most of first three seasons), which helped perpetuate the several years of high picks.
And offer 2019 1st, whatever 1st/s from Dallas, Knox, Frank and Robinson for AD.
I think this is where the Knicks are headed. Like I said dozens of times now, if you had to trade everything to get AD and cap space you would have to do it. The Knicks just traded one thing to get cap space. Thats one part of this thing.
until after free agency, they go out and sign durant and someone else this deal was brilliant
How about this: in the incredibly unlikely circumstance where that happens, I'll apologize and admit I was totally wrong? Because it's a helluva lot more likely that I will never have to do that because the Knicks are a farce run by clowns.
Porzingis is a major question mark going forward as he has missed 140 games in 3 seasons.
The hard part is that there is not any tangible asset coming back to the Knicks to make this deal plausible.
The positives of this deal are that the Knicks got rid of Hardaway and Lee and will be in the game for the major free agents. It is up to Mills/Perry/Fizdale to sell the Knicks. Fizdale will especially be under the gun as his coaching leaves a lot to be desired.
We also got 2 future first round picks.
Comparing this deal to the Ewing deal is insane as we got back below average players with bloated contracts.
From top to bottom, this org is dysfunctional. Even the Browns got their shit together eventually.
Any franchise can turn things around. Weve seen the cubs, browns and cavs turn things around. The giants were the worst team of the 70s then they turned it around. The Knicks were the model in that same decade. Then sucked. Then were very good for a decade.
From top to bottom, this org is dysfunctional. Even the Browns got their shit together eventually.
Any franchise can turn things around. Weve seen the cubs, browns and cavs turn things around. The giants were the worst team of the 70s then they turned it around. The Knicks were the model in that same decade. Then sucked. Then were very good for a decade.
Its all about acquiring talent.
yeah - and it starts with acquiring talent in the front office. And in that department, we have the worst team president in the sport.
I for one am really happy the Knicks got an ineffecient offensive checker who plays no D ( with a bad knee to boot). The team hasnt had a player like that before....
also, screw Porzingis for being such a short-sighted malcontent
The guy can't stay healthy, is out for a year, while the Knicks are intentionally putting themselves in position to get a top pick in the draft and bring in a max player, and now he decides that he wants out?
The Knicks were actually taking the right approach this season.
Dallas must be trying to get another first rounder
which is why this hasn't been completed yet. There was a report about this an hour or two ago. Their pick also isn't conveyed to Atlanta if it falls in the top 5. They currently have a 9.4% chance of getting into the top 4. The Knicks should figure out a way to get their pick if this were to happen.
The biggest problem the Knicks have with KD is; why did KP not want to be there?
There's nothing intrinsically amazing about the Knicks. The New York area is a great place, but it's also expensive and cold. They've been terrible for virtually all of these young guys' lives. The clowns running the show cycle through and are still there.
If you're the Warriors leadership you sit down and say; we draft smart, we attract talent, we have a brand new arena, our ownership writes blank checks, our coach has a millions rings.
What do the Knicks say? Come save this franchise and please convince someone else to come -- and by the way don't worry about that pile of players, coaches and GMs tasked with this before we keep in the corner.
and I guess this isn't talked about that much because the other contracts are worse. Good thing we have Lance Thomas at 7 Million per! Wow. What a nightmare this team is.
Is Smith Jr. REALLY that much of an upgrade over Mudiay? I mean they're both score-first guards who can't shoot or play defense. The difference is that Mudiay is bigger and Smith is a better scorer.
Watched the youth, enjoyed it even with losing, but dont cut out my heart unless there is a plan in place. Just to do it to free up cap without Yes a verbal but cant tamper commitment is not doing their job. We could have attached Frank with Lee and someone else with Tim or a future #1 but KP is a little extreme.
The rules a lot better than I do, we have only money guaranteed next year (I believe) for DSJ, Frank, Robinson, Knox, (Noah), and a little TT, Kornet? Why cant we get Three in here?
The guy can't stay healthy, is out for a year, while the Knicks are intentionally putting themselves in position to get a top pick in the draft and bring in a max player, and now he decides that he wants out?
The Knicks were actually taking the right approach this season.
This is what I don't understand. The Knicks could get Zion, Barrett, or Morant in the draft plus Durant/Irving/etc in free agency. Pair them with him and the Knicks are a legit contender but he wants out? Fuck him!
The guy can't stay healthy, is out for a year, while the Knicks are intentionally putting themselves in position to get a top pick in the draft and bring in a max player, and now he decides that he wants out?
The Knicks were actually taking the right approach this season.
This is what I don't understand. The Knicks could get Zion, Barrett, or Morant in the draft plus Durant/Irving/etc in free agency. Pair them with him and the Knicks are a legit contender but he wants out? Fuck him!
So knowing all that -- and he didn't want to be here -- might that say an awful lot about the organization?
Have two first round picks to Knicks been confirmed?
Is Smith Jr. REALLY that much of an upgrade over Mudiay? I mean they're both score-first guards who can't shoot or play defense. The difference is that Mudiay is bigger and Smith is a better scorer.
if Smith's presence means Mudiay is gone after this year then that's at least a tiny bit of good news.
Ian Begley
@IanBegley
Knicks announce the trade but dont specify which 2 future first round firsts theyre getting. NYK GM Scott Perry: Considering the uncertainty regarding Kristaps free agent status and his request today to be traded, we made a trade that we are confident improves the franchise.
The two first-round picks the New York Knicks will receive from the Dallas Mavericks in the Kristaps Porzingis trade will be in 2021 and 2023, The Athletic has learned. Both picks are protected.
when IT left. Nope. Who the fuck do I root for now? A Knick fan all my life, but you'd have to be a sucker to continue to root for such incompetence and boorishness.
What are joke. I would bet they are heavily protected and become 2nd rounders. The fact they couldnt even get these unprotected and pick swaps show how shitty this front office is.
I also dont buy the bullshit that KP wanted out and their hands were tied. Good teams make it work. Shitty teams hope for a miracle.
And really glad we stretched Noah in September. What a complete joke of a team.
all make way too much money to be traded for anything good at this point. The mechanics of trading them just gets to be too complicated. They most likely get bought out...
RE: RE: RE: also, screw Porzingis for being such a short-sighted malcontent
So knowing all that -- and he didn't want to be here -- might that say an awful lot about the organization?
He's been a douche (or at least douche adjacent) for a while. Some people just chose to ignore it because they hated Phil Jackson a lot.
I don't care that they traded him. I care that they were willing to accept a shit return just to rectify their original mistake of THJ's idiotic contract.
Guy on ESPN said one of the firsts is unprotected...
To spin this and blame the fans who were cheering for Kanter last night?
Dolan is probably at fault but that crowd and the father son duo at the draft (who actually looks a lot like Mitchell Hurwitz) just paint this awful picture I cant stand and makes me want to give this team up.
To spin this and blame the fans who were cheering for Kanter last night?
Dolan is probably at fault but that crowd and the father son duo at the draft (who actually looks a lot like Mitchell Hurwitz) just paint this awful picture I cant stand and makes me want to give this team up.
the NBA agent business said Knicks had an idea that KP did not want to sign here long term. They brought him in and were told that in person. He never liked it in NYC. I still think they should have shopped him around first
the NBA agent business said Knicks had an idea that KP did not want to sign here long term. They brought him in and were told that in person. He never liked it in NYC. I still think they should have shopped him around first
They did shop him around first as has been reported by a bunch of reputable reporters. This didn't all come together today.
And we have over $70. Who makes up the other $30m is beyond me. The big salaries are prorated. Not many games left. I would think a playoff team (or one pushing for a spot) could use those 3 guys. Milwaukee couldnt use Jordan?
the NBA agent business said Knicks had an idea that KP did not want to sign here long term. They brought him in and were told that in person. He never liked it in NYC. I still think they should have shopped him around first
I really don't think you get a better deal for him.
Dallas is taking a big gamble on a often injured soon to be FA.
They ate THR and Lee's contracts plus gave away a decent PG and they have traded 2 picks.
If porzingis continues to get hurt or leaves after a year.
Dallas fans will lose their minds
This is one of the most fascinating trades in recent NBA memory, with perhaps only one good comparison: the Los Angeles Lakers agreeing to trade D'Angelo Russell and Timofey Mozgov to the Brooklyn Nets just before the 2017 NBA draft in exchange for Brook Lopez and the No. 27 pick in that year's draft (eventually Kyle Kuzma).
Like that trade, this one involves a team surrendering one of its best trade chips in order to shed salary, while also picking up useful pieces in return. On his own, giving up Porzingis would surely be too much in exchange for moving the $37 million remaining on Hardaway's contract after this season and the $12.8 million Lee was scheduled to make in 2019-20. Add in Smith and draft picks and I believe the risk in this trade tilts in their favor.
Naturally, New York wouldn't make a deal like this without confidence in the organization's chances of landing at least one and possibly two marquee free agents. Shedding not only the $31 million owed to Hardaway and Lee but also Porzingis' $17.1 million cap hold gives the Knicks upward of $70 million in cap space this summer. The final number will depend on where New York's draft pick lands as well as the decision on Allonzo Trier's $3.6 million team option, but the Knicks should have the ability to sign both a player with 10-plus years of experience (like Kevin Durant) and one with five to nine years of experience (like Kyrie Irving) to max contracts.
Alternatively, it is possible this trade could be the precursor to a run at Anthony Davis this summer. Including Porzingis in a Davis offer after the deadline would have been difficult if not impossible because he would have had to agree to a sign-and-trade as a restricted free agent. Even now, the threat of Porzingis accepting his qualifying offer and becoming an unrestricted free agent in the summer of 2020 might have scared off the New Orleans Pelicans from considering him a valuable piece of a deal.
If the Pelicans are interested in Smith, he could be part of a Davis offer this summer. So too could any draft picks New York gets. Ultimately, the Knicks probably need to land the No. 1 overall pick via this year's lottery to offer a realistic package for Davis.
Whatever direction New York takes, Smith is a useful piece to add because of his potential and his modest $4.5 million salary for 2019-20. Some 19 months after a front office led by Phil Jackson passed on Smith in favor of drafting Frank Ntilikina with the No. 8 pick in 2017, the Knicks now have both players, whose skill sets could be complementary given Ntilikina has frequently played off the ball during his first two NBA seasons.
Fittingly, Russell was my comparison for Smith's potential when I assessed his trade value earlier this month. While it might take a couple of seasons for Smith to become a quality point guard -- an issue if New York shifts into win-now mode by adding veteran stars this summer -- he remains a promising prospect whose value could be rehabilitated with the Knicks. We've seen former lottery picks Burke and Emmanuel Mudiay put up better numbers in New York's offense than their previous stops, and if Smith can do the same, he might become a more attractive trade chip if the Knicks decide to move in a different direction.
Undoubtedly, this trade is a huge gamble for New York. If the Knicks strike out in free agency and are unlucky in the lottery, the team could be left starless after dealing Porzingis. Nonetheless, if the Knicks are right to be confident in their chances in free agency, I think this was a good way for them to clear the necessary cap space.
Dallas Mavericks: C-
Make no mistake, this move is a gamble for the Mavericks too, though of a different sort. They're betting that Porzingis will get back to full strength after last year's ACL injury and stay healthy -- as well as re-sign in Dallas for the long term.
Forgoing this summer's free agency makes sense for the Mavericks, who haven't gotten much buzz as a destination for stars despite Luka Doncic's promising rookie season. Assuming Harrison Barnes picks up his $25.1 million player option, Dallas will be just about capped out this summer after adding Hardaway, Lee and Porzingis' cap hold. And that's fine.
The Mavericks should be competitive next season with a healthy Porzingis while looking toward either the summer of 2020 (when Barnes and Lee become free agents) or 2021 (when Hardaway's contract expires) for a big splash in free agency. Doncic's rookie deal, which won't expire until after he makes a paltry $10.2 million in the 2021-22 season, gives Dallas the luxury of patience to strike. And Hardaway is hardly dead salary. He'll be an important part of the team's wing rotation the next two seasons.
When he returns to the court, Porzingis will be a fascinating fit for the Mavericks. Long compared to Dirk Nowitzki as a 7-foot-plus European with deep shooting range, Porzingis will now potentially succeed him in Dallas and could form one of the league's most potent pick-and-roll partnerships with Doncic. If Porzingis is the same player we saw before his injury, opponents will have few good options against Doncic-Porzingis pick-and-pops, with either player capable of pulling up from 3 or taking advantage of a mismatch after a switch.
However, Porzingis' restricted free agency this summer complicates the issue. His concerns about the Knicks surely accelerated the timetable on this deal, and it's unclear how Porzingis will feel about playing for the Mavericks. ESPN's Adrian Wojnarowski reported Thursday that he has yet to make a decision about his future in Dallas, which is both understandable and not exactly reassuring for the Mavericks.
I'm not sure I buy the threat of Porzingis accepting his qualifying offer and becoming an unrestricted free agent in the summer of 2020. Such a move would be unprecedented for a player who was offered the kind of deal he wanted coming off his rookie contract, and that's before factoring in the value of security for a player coming off an injury. That said, there's a first time for everything, and Porzingis might value the ability to determine where he plays enough to stomach the risk of reinjury.
If Porzingis indeed re-ups long term, the injury risk shifts to the Mavericks. There's long been concern that Porzingis' 7-foot-3 frame put him at risk of injury, and depending whether he is cleared by the end of the season, Dallas might have to commit without seeing him play in an NBA game after the ACL injury.
Without having access to Porzingis' medical reports, it's tough to assess just how much of a gamble the Mavericks are taking here. From the outside, however, it's too much to be worth giving up both Smith and draft picks.
To be better than the max contract Dallas hopes to give him, Porzingis will have to be durable and effective enough to play at an All-Star level. I think it's much more likely that he falls short of that than plays so well as to be worth more than the max. As a result, I would have taken my chances with Smith's development, the picks and whatever else the Mavericks could have acquired by renting out their cap space.
And we have over $70. Who makes up the other $30m is beyond me. The big salaries are prorated. Not many games left. I would think a playoff team (or one pushing for a spot) could use those 3 guys. Milwaukee couldnt use Jordan?
DSJ, Frank, Dotson, Knox, Robinson, Knicks first rounder this year, Noah stretch $6M
the NBA agent business said Knicks had an idea that KP did not want to sign here long term. They brought him in and were told that in person. He never liked it in NYC. I still think they should have shopped him around first
Apparently, they offered KP to the Pelicans as part of an AD deal and the Pelicans said, "No". At least NO picked up the phone unlike with the Lakers.
The Knicks traded Porzingis to get a guy they passed on last season for Frank and to get off 2 shitty contracts they gave out less than 2 seasons ago. But Im sure those picks will be great, Doncic hasnt shown much....
But sure the Knicks will do what only one other NBA has ever done this offseason. Steve Mills and Scott Perry are comparable to Riley and Wade...
We can dream. Whose our bigs? Lets say we get a 3-5 pick and get a Duke player (or worse reach for a big). Cant start Robinson. Need two bulls down low. I cant see how we would be the favorite.
We can dream. Whose our bigs? Lets say we get a 3-5 pick and get a Duke player (or worse reach for a big). Cant start Robinson. Need two bulls down low. I cant see how we would be the favorite.
If you have Irving and Durant you can find guys on vet min deals. They also could maybe trade Frank and resign Vonleh for example. If the Knicks don't get into the top 3, I would think Bol Bol may now be an option too.
the NBA agent business said Knicks had an idea that KP did not want to sign here long term. They brought him in and were told that in person. He never liked it in NYC. I still think they should have shopped him around first
Apparently, they offered KP to the Pelicans as part of an AD deal and the Pelicans said, "No". At least NO picked up the phone unlike with the Lakers.
Exactly. With the uncertainty with Porzingis signing long term that isn't what they are looking for. They'd want long term assets.
The Knicks traded Porzingis to get a guy they passed on last season for Frank and to get off 2 shitty contracts they gave out less than 2 seasons ago. But Im sure those picks will be great, Doncic hasnt shown much....
But sure the Knicks will do what only one other NBA has ever done this offseason. Steve Mills and Scott Perry are comparable to Riley and Wade...
Unlike previous Knicks disasters, there are young players on the roster who can improve, the possiblity of 4+ high-end draft prospects (Zion, Ja, Barrett, Reddish), and all of their future picks.
That hopefully makes them less desperate than they were with STAT.
but if the Knicks get Irving and Durant, they'd probably be the favorite in the East next season.
Definitely. And although the siuation cannot help but evoke memories of the Lebron fiasco, I think it is adifferent set of circumstances.
Lebron, Wade and Bosh had a secret arrangent among themselves to go to Miami and Pat the Snake likely knew all about it. Knicks also had a GM who was a good basketball man but not connected to the world of the players.
I think Perry is much more in tune with what players are thinking. KD is completely enigmatic and nobody knows what he will do. Kyrie is all over the map. So who knows. But you gotta be in it to win it. So, I like that Perry is giving the Knicks a chance.
Also, Perry is stockpiling first rounders rather than using them to unload salary the way Donnie did. So, if the whole thing falls through, Knicks will have a bunch of picks to work with.
somehow land two stars, it's going to be very difficult to build an actual rotation. They will have a bunch of interesting young pieces (Trier, Mitch, Frank, DSJ, Knox, and whoever they draft) under contract, but none of these guys are ready to step up and play meaningful minutes for a contender. It would be the ultimate "stars and scrubs" roster.
somehow land two stars, it's going to be very difficult to build an actual rotation. They will have a bunch of interesting young pieces (Trier, Mitch, Frank, DSJ, Knox, and whoever they draft) under contract, but none of these guys are ready to step up and play meaningful minutes for a contender. It would be the ultimate "stars and scrubs" roster.
say best case scenario you get irving and durant, vets will come play with the knicks, filling out the bench will not be a problem
We can dream. Whose our bigs? Lets say we get a 3-5 pick and get a Duke player (or worse reach for a big). Cant start Robinson. Need two bulls down low. I cant see how we would be the favorite.
assuming no vets...
probably irving, dot or trier, durant, knox, robinson
somehow land two stars, it's going to be very difficult to build an actual rotation. They will have a bunch of interesting young pieces (Trier, Mitch, Frank, DSJ, Knox, and whoever they draft) under contract, but none of these guys are ready to step up and play meaningful minutes for a contender. It would be the ultimate "stars and scrubs" roster.
say best case scenario you get irving and durant, vets will come play with the knicks, filling out the bench will not be a problem
somehow land two stars, it's going to be very difficult to build an actual rotation. They will have a bunch of interesting young pieces (Trier, Mitch, Frank, DSJ, Knox, and whoever they draft) under contract, but none of these guys are ready to step up and play meaningful minutes for a contender. It would be the ultimate "stars and scrubs" roster.
If the Knicks get two high end FA, the vets will flock in for a shot at a ring- remember that the CBA allows teams to add many vet minimum salaries. Look at what the Cavs did for years- or the Heat.
Let's say they bring in Durant and Irving. Robinson would be part of the defensive bench rotation at the 5. Smith probably is a rotational guy in the backcourt. Knox probably is the scorer off the bench. After that, you get 5-6 vets who will play cheap- and you have a strong team.
The Knicks even have a small group of players at a moderate salary who can be traded for cheaper vets or better fits. of course, the picks are also valuable trade assets to fill in the team as well.
Think guys like Danny Green, Marcus Morris, Patrick Beverly, TJ McConnell, Wilson Chandler, KOQ and the like. They are not stars, but they know how to play the modern NBA game, can do the "little things" and score just enough to keep teams honest.
the Knicks were probably my favorite team in the world (the Mets being second and that's for another thread). Loved Clyde, Earl the Pearl, Willis, Dave, Bill and the rest (my family actually met Bill Bradley in the Garden by chance). Such a great team and classy group of guys.
Little did I know at the time, being a Knicks fan would largely suck for the rest of my life. I don't even count the Ewing years as satisfying and it wasn't because of him. I always felt they never surrounded him with enough talent. Chicago surrounded Jordan with more.
And here we are.
I have an 11 year old son (who is a pretty good basketball player (usually leads his teams in points and assists) and has always rooted for my NY teams including the Gmen (even though he has spent his entire life in FL).
How can I continue to tell him to root for the Knicks? They've sucked his entire life! And will probably continue to do so for who knows how long.
Dont sit here and proclaim that Noah was just as easily moveable as hardaway was. Youre reaching on that one just to push a narrative.
Talk to me in July.
Ive seen better players moved for less. I loved KP but I would have moved him and every resource we had if we could land AD and open up one max slot. This isnt the same kind of trade but its similar.
It would be ironic and maybe even apt if the scariest trade possible turned out to be the one that led this team out of the wilderness. All we can do is hope.
Lastly, KP wanted out and the Knicks reportedly were trying to deal him for months now. Think about that before you eviscerate Perry and the Knicks here. It sounds like this want some half baked plan that came out of nowhere.
and will always be a Knicks fan. I was hoping for a good draft pick and keeping Porg with a max free agent because it would be a rebuilding through the draft with help from free agents as opposed to free agents running the team and picking there teammates. I will always root for the Knicks like I said... I was optimistic this year because it seemed like we were taking our time and doing it right but if porg didn't want to be here then you have to go for the two max free agents and a great draft pick... what else can you do.. I don't mind the current GM and Coach in fact I like them. Since I'm a Knicks fan for life... Prozingis can go fuck himself and if I see him on the street I'll cross to the other side.
I can't believe how angry people are over this deal
Knicks got rid of two terrible contracts (Hardaway and Lee), traded away a guy who is NOT a top 20 player in the league but will soon be getting paid like one, not to mention he's injury prone and 7'3, which league history shows guys at that size do not have long careers (plus he did not want to be here anymore anyway). And in return they got back two number one picks, a PG who they have control over for the next 3 seasons, and now cap space to sign TWO max guys.
somehow land two stars, it's going to be very difficult to build an actual rotation. They will have a bunch of interesting young pieces (Trier, Mitch, Frank, DSJ, Knox, and whoever they draft) under contract, but none of these guys are ready to step up and play meaningful minutes for a contender. It would be the ultimate "stars and scrubs" roster.
If the Knicks get two high end FA, the vets will flock in for a shot at a ring- remember that the CBA allows teams to add many vet minimum salaries. Look at what the Cavs did for years- or the Heat.
the Heat had guys ready to contribute already on the roster (e.g. Haslem, Chalmers). We have projects
Quote:
Let's say they bring in Durant and Irving. Robinson would be part of the defensive bench rotation at the 5. Smith probably is a rotational guy in the backcourt. Knox probably is the scorer off the bench. After that, you get 5-6 vets who will play cheap- and you have a strong team.
five or six? Is that all? lol...
Quote:
Think guys like Danny Green, Marcus Morris, Patrick Beverly, TJ McConnell, Wilson Chandler, KOQ and the like. They are not stars, but they know how to play the modern NBA game, can do the "little things" and score just enough to keep teams honest.
several of the players you mentioned are not at the stage of their careers where they'd ring chase on minimum deals. They'd still want to be paid.
somehow land two stars, it's going to be very difficult to build an actual rotation. They will have a bunch of interesting young pieces (Trier, Mitch, Frank, DSJ, Knox, and whoever they draft) under contract, but none of these guys are ready to step up and play meaningful minutes for a contender. It would be the ultimate "stars and scrubs" roster.
say best case scenario you get irving and durant, vets will come play with the knicks, filling out the bench will not be a problem
Plus the trade route.
The Knicks have young talent, picks and a ton of cap space. We will
Miss KP but think about what they have not what they lost. They have never ever ever ever been in the spot before. Literally, never. A lot of idiots are screaming on the fan that the Knicks cant attract FAs so why bother? Well, they have only had max room one fucking time when they signed stat.
Go big or go home. Cant blame them here for trying. Its scary and it could blow up in their face but its a worthy risk, I think.... I hope...
First time KP came to the garden he would get bitch slapped and a couple of elbows in the face. God help him if he drove the lane. I hope someone brings a little attitude and sends that fuck back to Siberia. (Yea I know Latvia).
I admit I haven't been following the NBA closely lately
but could someone tell me why would Durant leave GS (for a crap franchise like the Knicks)? And why would Irving leave Boston? Last I knew, teams can offer their own FA more $. Has that changed?
And both of those teams are significantly better than the Knicks.
somehow land two stars, it's going to be very difficult to build an actual rotation. They will have a bunch of interesting young pieces (Trier, Mitch, Frank, DSJ, Knox, and whoever they draft) under contract, but none of these guys are ready to step up and play meaningful minutes for a contender. It would be the ultimate "stars and scrubs" roster.
If the Knicks get two high end FA, the vets will flock in for a shot at a ring- remember that the CBA allows teams to add many vet minimum salaries. Look at what the Cavs did for years- or the Heat.
the Heat had guys ready to contribute already on the roster (e.g. Haslem, Chalmers). We have projects
Quote:
Let's say they bring in Durant and Irving. Robinson would be part of the defensive bench rotation at the 5. Smith probably is a rotational guy in the backcourt. Knox probably is the scorer off the bench. After that, you get 5-6 vets who will play cheap- and you have a strong team.
five or six? Is that all? lol...
Quote:
Think guys like Danny Green, Marcus Morris, Patrick Beverly, TJ McConnell, Wilson Chandler, KOQ and the like. They are not stars, but they know how to play the modern NBA game, can do the "little things" and score just enough to keep teams honest.
several of the players you mentioned are not at the stage of their careers where they'd ring chase on minimum deals. They'd still want to be paid.
Chalmers was going into his third year when Lebron went to Miami. Same as DSJ/Frank and he certainly hadn't done much to date. Haslem wasn't exactly a guy you couldn't find a replacement for on a min deal. Hell, the Knicks picked up Vonleh on a vet min deal this year
until after free agency, they go out and sign durant and someone else this deal was brilliant
they could sign 1996 Shaq and 2010 LeBron - and it would never be a brilliant deal.
Thats just stupid. Even if not Durant, if the Knicks went out and got Davis and Leonard with the room and managed to draft Zion, this deal is a no brainer.
Signed as one who likes this move. KP, did not like it here, dowles not have that killer instinct and wanted big money despite being a tulip on the court. We dumped the contracts we wanted to and are pretty much done with the Phil era players.
and will always be a Knicks fan. I was hoping for a good draft pick and keeping Porg with a max free agent because it would be a rebuilding through the draft with help from free agents as opposed to free agents running the team and picking there teammates. I will always root for the Knicks like I said... I was optimistic this year because it seemed like we were taking our time and doing it right but if porg didn't want to be here then you have to go for the two max free agents and a great draft pick... what else can you do.. I don't mind the current GM and Coach in fact I like them. Since I'm a Knicks fan for life... Prozingis can go fuck himself and if I see him on the street I'll cross to the other side.
protect his health and stress levels, while trying to win on a consistent level. I don't blame him wanting out of this shitshow. The Knicks have been a joke for two decades.
For DSJ (a week or two ago). Myself and maybe 16 wanted DSJ in a big way draft day. Now DSJ will get a lot of love here like he is an All Star ( which he is not) we always our guys.
people being insanely mad about this trade. Sure, it's a risk. But they're going all in on free agency this summer. If it doesn't work out, then they're exactly where they were before. Great they would have Porzingis, but where were they going? I think they believe that they had little to no chance to convince a guy like Durant to come to New York to play with Porzingis. Porzingis may be a star, but he's hurt often and we just dont know if he'll ever stay healthy or if he will develop into what we think he can. And he was a pre-madonna (old BBI reference). Durant is much more likely to come with another star in free agency than he would be to come with Porzingis sitting there coming off of an ACL injury.
They are going for the grand slam. If they swing and miss, they will suck just like they would have if they didn't trade Porzingis. If Durant doesn't come when he can bring another guy with him, he certainly wasn't going to come to play with Porzingis coming off of an ACL injury.
In an ideal world they would never have signed clowns like Tim Hardaway and they wouldn't have had to do something like this, but considering the circumstances, I think they made the right decision.
It's a risk, but it's one they had to take. Doing this was the only way they could open up 2 max slots.
The Knicks have the worst luck in the world and they have a moron of an owner but they're due for something to go their way.
It is a risk but it's not nearly as big of a risk as some are saying. Does anyone really give a shit if they are 15-67 next year versus maybe 40-42? I am only interested in plans that can make them a potential title contender. Finding a path to being one with Porzingis and 1 max slot assuming Durant was not coming would have been next to impossible. It's much easier to find a path if they get the 2 right guys with those 2 max slots.
It sucks that they made previous mistakes that put them in the position of having to do this, but I have a feeling this is going to work out very well for the Knicks. Even if it doesn't, I'm more than fine taking the chance, because I don't give a shit if the knicks are 40-42 or if they are 15-67. They either have a shot to win a title or don't.
Frank for a high five and a coke at this point. He's so worthless on offense that I will be shocked if he's ever even a decent player. Useless offensive players at guard are not going to be valuable in todays NBA. If he could be an average offensive player he'd have value, but he's so far from average even. I don't like DSJ but he's more valuable than Frank, but thats not saying much
Doesn't sound like Jordan or Matthews will be bought out
and he absolutely will be a good player in the NBA and have a role, I just dont see a player with zero shot whatsoever being a star. He will do plenty enough to always be a good player but if he can't shoot his ceiling will be much lower than most people think.
I love Ja Morant. If the Knicks have the #1 pick thats who I want. Barrett right behind him. I'd probably rank Zion 3rd.
Get Ja Morant and 2 max free agents that aren't guys like Kemba Walker and time to go to war.
Morant
Kyrie
Knox
Durant
Robinson
RE: Doesn't sound like Jordan or Matthews will be bought out
protect his health and stress levels, while trying to win on a consistent level. I don't blame him wanting out of this shitshow. The Knicks have been a joke for two decades.
Im sorry, thats bullshit. All KP did from the time he got here was miss games and chirp like hes some ten year vet headed to the hall of fame. Maybe this team wouldnt be in the position its in had KP actually contributed a bit more and....acted like he actually wanted to be here?
There is no doubt the Knicks are a dumpster fire. But in this case, KP is as much responsible as anyone else. He could have been a legend here. He wasnt up to the task. Blame him. Not the Knicks.
On Wesley Matthews and DeAndre Jordan, Knicks GM Scott Perry says the veteran players can help the young Knicks in the remainder of the season. No mention of a buyout.
protect his health and stress levels, while trying to win on a consistent level. I don't blame him wanting out of this shitshow. The Knicks have been a joke for two decades.
Yep. Why would anyone but trash players like Hardaway and Thomas ever choose to play for a pathetic laughingstock?
protect his health and stress levels, while trying to win on a consistent level. I don't blame him wanting out of this shitshow. The Knicks have been a joke for two decades.
Im sorry, thats bullshit. All KP did from the time he got here was miss games and chirp like hes some ten year vet headed to the hall of fame. Maybe this team wouldnt be in the position its in had KP actually contributed a bit more and....acted like he actually wanted to be here?
There is no doubt the Knicks are a dumpster fire. But in this case, KP is as much responsible as anyone else. He could have been a legend here. He wasnt up to the task. Blame him. Not the Knicks.
You're not wrong. My point is that these guys are selfish, just like the owners. I get why KP wanted out and I get why the Knicks wanted out too.
But the fact remains. The Knicks are a dysfunctional, trash organization.
RE: RE: RE: Doesn't sound like Jordan or Matthews will be bought out
On Wesley Matthews and DeAndre Jordan, Knicks GM Scott Perry says the veteran players can help the young Knicks in the remainder of the season. No mention of a buyout.
On Wesley Matthews and DeAndre Jordan, Knicks GM Scott Perry says the veteran players can help the young Knicks in the remainder of the season. No mention of a buyout.
Uhh..as long as that "help" is from the bench and not trying to win games.
A little worried about the tank here.
Now here's where I am on the trade:
1) I love the idea of creating cap space
2) I have failed to understand why KP hasn't understood and accepted what the Knicks were doing this year. Hubris maybe? If he bought in and saw the vision (tank for top pick, get him an established sidekick, take over the east) then this wouldn't have happened. Instead he wanted what?? To have the Knicks mired in mediocrity by making half assed moves like they have for the last 20 years??
3) I'm shocked they didn't do better in the trade. It's really bad...and I read that other teams are saying they are inquired on KP recently and Knicks told them he was untouchable...and then this trade happened without checking with then. That's inexcusable if true.
a lot of money spent on a C player with a low basketball IQ, and now the Knicks are getting rid of his contract with the best player we have seen on the Knicks in a decade.
On Wesley Matthews and DeAndre Jordan, Knicks GM Scott Perry says the veteran players can help the young Knicks in the remainder of the season. No mention of a buyout.
protect his health and stress levels, while trying to win on a consistent level. I don't blame him wanting out of this shitshow. The Knicks have been a joke for two decades.
Im sorry, thats bullshit. All KP did from the time he got here was miss games and chirp like hes some ten year vet headed to the hall of fame. Maybe this team wouldnt be in the position its in had KP actually contributed a bit more and....acted like he actually wanted to be here?
There is no doubt the Knicks are a dumpster fire. But in this case, KP is as much responsible as anyone else. He could have been a legend here. He wasnt up to the task. Blame him. Not the Knicks.
You're not wrong. My point is that these guys are selfish, just like the owners. I get why KP wanted out and I get why the Knicks wanted out too.
But the fact remains. The Knicks are a dysfunctional, trash organization.
Unless the Knicks can seance 2016 Lebron James, any pairing of stars needs to be paired with a much smarter, wiser, and responsible front office.
It's fair to suspect KP is an ass. It's clear as day the Knicks organization is chalk full of complete asses top-to-bottom.
If somehow Durant ups and chooses NY and brings a buddy -- a lot still needs to get better before the Knicks are title contenders.
I think the Knicks did very well in this trade . Its true KP is the only good player being exchanged. But how does anyone know he will be the same player? Also his build suggests further injuries to me
I think when you considered the risk factor Knicks got a lot for KP.
On Wesley Matthews and DeAndre Jordan, Knicks GM Scott Perry says the veteran players can help the young Knicks in the remainder of the season. No mention of a buyout.
Facepalm.
What else is he going to say?
Yeah, I get that, but let's hope he's not telling the truth.
RE: RE: I just can't get over how fast this transpired...
Porzingis thinks hes a lot better than hes proven to the league so far.
It was obvious when a young player lacking any type of stature in the league tried to pull what he did ditching his team exit meetings a couple years ago.
For all the Mets fans out there, you know what Im talking about, this guy is Matt Harvey in a baseball uniform. Talent through the roof, over-inflated opinion of himself, injury concerns.
On Wesley Matthews and DeAndre Jordan, Knicks GM Scott Perry says the veteran players can help the young Knicks in the remainder of the season. No mention of a buyout.
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Its difficult for me to believe they couldnt have done better
Than DSJ and a salary dump. I have no interest in DSJ and was among those who would not have traded Frank for him, let alone the fucking franchise cornerstone. Shoot first, low efficiency player, awful. Hate it.
Trading KP could have made sense under different circumstances but not for this return. What the fuck would DSJ even offer on a team with Kyrie and KD? You just have to flip him again for something else, and its doubftul he has much value considering hes been on the market for weeks and nobody showed interest.
RE: Its difficult for me to believe they couldnt have done better
Than DSJ and a salary dump. I have no interest in DSJ and was among those who would not have traded Frank for him, let alone the fucking franchise cornerstone. Shoot first, low efficiency player, awful. Hate it.
Trading KP could have made sense under different circumstances but not for this return. What the fuck would DSJ even offer on a team with Kyrie and KD? You just have to flip him again for something else, and its doubftul he has much value considering hes been on the market for weeks and nobody showed interest.
what did you expect them to do? KP was not re signing and his brother is dictating or trying to dictate who to sign...
Knicks did the best they could...
they went from 29 million in cap space to 74 and all they had to give up was kp...
and they got 2 future 1sts....
they also got a young player who is excited to be in new york
people here are acting like this guy isn't a potential MVP caliber player and he's still only 23.
I see the trade him perspective for sure but I don't understand why people think this is a good return. The step forward he took from rookie to year 2 was significant and there isn't really any reason to believe he doesn't have another big step forward in him.
RE: RE: Its difficult for me to believe they couldnt have done better
Than DSJ and a salary dump. I have no interest in DSJ and was among those who would not have traded Frank for him, let alone the fucking franchise cornerstone. Shoot first, low efficiency player, awful. Hate it.
Trading KP could have made sense under different circumstances but not for this return. What the fuck would DSJ even offer on a team with Kyrie and KD? You just have to flip him again for something else, and its doubftul he has much value considering hes been on the market for weeks and nobody showed interest.
what did you expect them to do? KP was not re signing and his brother is dictating or trying to dictate who to sign...
Knicks did the best they could...
they went from 29 million in cap space to 74 and all they had to give up was kp...
and they got 2 future 1sts....
they also got a young player who is excited to be in new york
Honestly if the 1st were this year and 2021 and not protected I think the trade would have been awesome.... But having to wait for 2021 and 2023 for picks that will probably be in the 20s..not ideal...
RE: Thing is most people come back from injuries these days
people here are acting like this guy isn't a potential MVP caliber player and he's still only 23.
I see the trade him perspective for sure but I don't understand why people think this is a good return. The step forward he took from rookie to year 2 was significant and there isn't really any reason to believe he doesn't have another big step forward in him.
Ability to stay healthy?? There is a reason unicorns don't really exist
Perry is getting killed. He didn't sign Hardaway to that fuckin horrendous deal. He didn't draft Frank over DSJ. Porzingis basically said he didn't want to sign here long term.
Perry deserves the benefit of the doubt here. If KO wasn't signing here long term then he took KP and traded him for a young guard, 2 first round picks, and cleared a shit load of cap space. Is it ideal? No but this is all hinging on getting two studs this offseason. If that happens then this was a homerun. If not then, like Mook said, where is the downside if KO wasn't signing here long-term? The only downside is people saying we could have gotten more. Yes, we could have but would those moves allowed us to get two max players?
RE: RE: Its difficult for me to believe they couldnt have done better
Than DSJ and a salary dump. I have no interest in DSJ and was among those who would not have traded Frank for him, let alone the fucking franchise cornerstone. Shoot first, low efficiency player, awful. Hate it.
Trading KP could have made sense under different circumstances but not for this return. What the fuck would DSJ even offer on a team with Kyrie and KD? You just have to flip him again for something else, and its doubftul he has much value considering hes been on the market for weeks and nobody showed interest.
what did you expect them to do? KP was not re signing and his brother is dictating or trying to dictate who to sign...
Knicks did the best they could...
they went from 29 million in cap space to 74 and all they had to give up was kp...
and they got 2 future 1sts....
they also got a young player who is excited to be in new york
Bam.....all of this. Plus, this idea that because of this pairing of KP and Doncic that the Mavs picks will be that of a playoff team....the Mavs are in the bottom third of the entire league with DSJ. Are some of you really duggesting that injury plagued KP and Doncic are going to set the league on fire in an absolutely loaded West? I have my doubts.
people here are acting like this guy isn't a potential MVP caliber player and he's still only 23.
I see the trade him perspective for sure but I don't understand why people think this is a good return. The step forward he took from rookie to year 2 was significant and there isn't really any reason to believe he doesn't have another big step forward in him.
Ability to stay healthy?? There is a reason unicorns don't really exist
Nobody knows if this is bad luck on health or going to be a chronic thing. You have to take into account that 2 seasons ago and this season we didn't want to win. Quite possible he plays a lot more games if that wasn't the case.
Even if he would have been out this long regardless you don't know.
His upside if he is healthy is way too large for this return.
There is a reason you NEVER see players like KP traded. Can you think of an example of a player this young with as much potential as KP traded?
Could have we gotten more? If everyone believes yes then Perry did a bad job. If the answer is we could have got more but I wanted the CAP space instead then we have to trust he did this for a reason. Like 16 keeps saying we will look at this in July.
Returns to form, those draft picks could end up being very big. Imagine they do land Durant and Kyrie, draft Zion, Barrett, or Morant and then all of a sudden have all these draft picks. Reminds me a little of the Celtics right now.
Returns to form, those draft picks could end up being very big. Imagine they do land Durant and Kyrie, draft Zion, Barrett, or Morant and then all of a sudden have all these draft picks. Reminds me a little of the Celtics right now.
The Celtics traded very old players and got unprotected first round picks in the years immediately following. This is nothing like that trade
Of course what happens this summer is the most important piece, but the more I think about it the more I like the trade either way.
How confident were we really that Porzingis and a bunch of kids were going to be enough to lure a big time free agent like Durant or Irving? Especially coming off of an ACL injury and a year in which the Knicks are probably going to win 20 games. So in the likely scenario that we miss on a free agent, they are settling for maxing Porzingis, which is a risk given the injury history, and hoping some of the kids pan out. To me that sounds like being just good enough for the next 4 years to be in "lottery hell" good enough to never have a high draft pick, but not good enough to ever win anything.
We now have a legitimate shot of landing Kevin Durant. If he was ever going to leave the Warriors for the Knicks, it is a heck of a lot more likely with the opportunity to play here with Kyrie Irving, Kawhi Leonard, Kemba Walker, or even Anthony Davis if the ping pong balls fall right allowing us to swing a trade for him.
If we don't get Durant? Now we have young pieces to develop (Knox, Robinson, Trier, Ntilikina, Smith Jr.), hopefully a top 3 pick, and we will be terrible for at least the next 2 seasons giving us more chances at hitting it big in the draft. The future Dallas picks are just gravy on top of that.
Either way, we now have 2 clear paths back to relevancy whether it be this summer in free agency or a couple years from now through the draft, and we avoid the potential of settling for mediocrity by maxing out Porzingis with little else around him. (ask the New Orleans Pelicans how that type of thing has worked out for them)
Has the potential to be one of the best moves they have ever made or one of the worst. No real in betweens. There is a scenario where it winds up one of the best moves they have ever made if everything falls right. KD, Kyrie, top 3 pick, Knox continued development and hitting on the Mavs future picks is the everything going right. IF (big if) that happens it will be looked back at as a cold blooded but genius move by Perry. But that's a big if.
Higher chance of the everything going wrong scenario where they get shut out in free agency and the Mavs picks wind up high and meaningless. We'll see.
understand why Durant would leave GS (for a crap franchise like the Knicks)? or why Irving would leave Boston?
Last I knew, teams can offer their own FA more $. Has that changed?
And both of those teams are significantly better than the Knicks.
Am I missing something?
I get Irving wanting to go home, but I don't understand KD leaving an incredible situation for less money, to fight an uphill battle on a franchise that could fuck up making water to drink.
bad? I really dont watch much non Knicks games, and I barely watch them. I always thought DSJ had a lot of upside and is still really young. Is his upside really only a mediocre player, or could he become really good? Fizdale has worked wonders with Mudiay.
But this trade will be eventually come down to who we get this summer. If it's KD & Kyrie, Yassss! If it's Kemba and Harris/Middleton, Yuck. Yuck in that we'll win 40-50 games, but not have a chance at winning the conference.
understand why Durant would leave GS (for a crap franchise like the Knicks)? or why Irving would leave Boston?
Last I knew, teams can offer their own FA more $. Has that changed?
And both of those teams are significantly better than the Knicks.
Am I missing something?
From a competitive standpoint:
If you add 2 of 3 of the elite free agents, pair them with top 3 draft pick..Knicks are automatically top 2-3 in East and conference championship contenders..
From a legacy standpoint:
Whatever star(s) turns the Knicks around will be legend..they will own the city. There is nothing in all of pro sports like the Knicks when they are winning. They are THE only NY sports team that gets the entire city behind them. Every other sport is split..not basketball. Knicks own NY. Bringing a championship back to the garden..that should be the ultimate prize for these guys..
But this trade will be eventually come down to who we get this summer. If it's KD & Kyrie, Yassss! If it's Kemba and Harris/Middleton, Yuck. Yuck in that we'll win 40-50 games, but not have a chance at winning the conference.
Agreed.
This can't be another STAT situation or Melo situation. We have continually failed... This time has to be different..
They didnt have two max slots then. Amare came for the money. They blew cap space on Chandler. Melo only took the trade because amare was here, and they had to trade everything of value to get him.
They have two max slots, a top pick in this draft, they had a good draft last year. DSJ might even be a player himself. They have future draft picks.
If they cant get stars to come here now under these conditions, they never will.
So Ill say it. Other than a star player if someone wants my total support. Take fucking KP out! Right at the god damn knee! And I really dont care some of the new generation will whine so be it.
So Ill say it. Other than a star player if someone wants my total support. Take fucking KP out! Right at the god damn knee! And I really dont care some of the new generation will whine so be it.
my hope knicks get 2 max stars and zion first game opening night national television against the mavs at the garden...
first possesion down i dont care it is someone dunks on kp
knicks have contacts close to durant so they can easily use back channels, royal ivey is reportedly one of his best friends...
I wonder if the knicks since they have been shopping kp for awhile, i wonder if durant told them through back channels id rather pick my own costar...
I think this absolutely has something to do with it. If you're Durant and come here to play with Porzingis, does that even guarantee that you are better than the current top 3 in the East? Why make the jump for that? Now if you pair Durant with Irving or Leonard, now you are probably the favorites.
Smith Jr had a lot of potential and upside to some on here during the draft. He seemed to have a pretty good rookie year, but with Doncic he is not needed. He sounds like an afterthought in this trade from what I am reading here. Anyways being so young, is he just never going to be a really good player? Or can Fizdale turn him into something special? Is he just going to traded again?
*I apologize for asking this twice and not following much non Knicks NBA anymore. You guys really have Some of the best conversations to follow on BBI. Its never as toxic as other discussions are.
Smith Jr had a lot of potential and upside to some on here during the draft. He seemed to have a pretty good rookie year, but with Doncic he is not needed. He sounds like an afterthought in this trade from what I am reading here. Anyways being so young, is he just never going to be a really good player? Or can Fizdale turn him into something special? Is he just going to traded again?
*I apologize for asking this twice and not following much non Knicks NBA anymore. You guys really have Some of the best conversations to follow on BBI. Its never as toxic as other discussions are.
Short answer- talented player but flawed. Guy definitely belongs in the league though.
With that said- he was a throw in for this deal. Trade was about the cap.
But Porzingis is a baby. If he really couldn't figure out what they were doing this season than he either has terrible guidance from his brother or he's just plain stupid. Maybe both. Also he is so sensitive. This is not the first time something strange happened with him. If he's going to act like this his whole career than maybe it's better he did leave. I mean he hasn't exactly done all that much to be walking around demanding explanations of things. He never even won rookie of the year let alone anything else.
Smith Jr had a lot of potential and upside to some on here during the draft. He seemed to have a pretty good rookie year, but with Doncic he is not needed. He sounds like an afterthought in this trade from what I am reading here. Anyways being so young, is he just never going to be a really good player? Or can Fizdale turn him into something special? Is he just going to traded again?
*I apologize for asking this twice and not following much non Knicks NBA anymore. You guys really have Some of the best conversations to follow on BBI. Its never as toxic as other discussions are.
Short answer- talented player but flawed. Guy definitely belongs in the league though.
With that said- he was a throw in for this deal. Trade was about the cap.
People wont call him out hard enough because whatever but he was a sucker. He also listened to his people too much. Entitled punk.
Shitty trade for the Knicks on the surface but well see. Durant looks like Warriors/Knicks at this point. Kyrie has made it clear hes unique, he can do whatever and it wouldnt surprise me. Zion is far from a safe bet. Knicks are very hit or miss now. Dolan is obviously a joke but the franchise still means enough where I could see a non-hungry Durant try and make his legacy here. Durants a total bitch though so in the NY market that would be extremely interesting.
Doncic is a future MVP barring something crazy. Him and KP could be insane together. Going from the best white Euro of a generation to the best two of the next is a real possibility. Cubans a smart businessman. KPs weakness was he couldnt create for others on offense, Doncic takes care of that. Could be a monster team if they stay healthy and make the right moves.
arguments going on Twitter right now. DSJ has a pretty good sized fan base, a lot of guys really coming to his defense. Surprising number of people are saying DSJ will be great away from Doncic, a good amount are posed off Dallas fans. I figured they would be in heaven over this deal. An uneducated observation from myself is that KP is a walking injury. His frame just looks awkward and like he is gonna break down. Again, this is just a silly observation from a casual fan.
Remember when Fizdale said he wasnt sprinting then KP had to post tape of him sprinting on Instagram? Theyre not honest and they just fucked their rebuild. Now theyre betting on cap room and all tfeyll get is Kemba and crap. Boy do they love ball hogs.
RE: I dont believe the Knicks at all on any of this
Remember when Fizdale said he wasnt sprinting then KP had to post tape of him sprinting on Instagram? Theyre not honest and they just fucked their rebuild. Now theyre betting on cap room and all tfeyll get is Kemba and crap. Boy do they love ball hogs.
They didn't fuck the rebuild if KP didn't want to be here. We would have been left with nothing if he walked. At least we attached our 2 bad contracts and picked up 2 firsts along the way. You can't make players want to play here. KP comes out of this looking horrible imo, he had a chance to be a legend in NY and chose to be a baby and let him brother call the shots, and leave with his tail between his legs. Let him be the Mavs problem now.
People wont call him out hard enough because whatever but he was a sucker. He also listened to his people too much. Entitled punk.
Many people won't call him out because they hate Dolan, Phil Jackson, and they hate the Knicks. And these are actual Knicks fans I'm talking about. You said the key word... entitled. His talent got confused with actual accomplishments, of which he had none on a personal or team level.
You see the newspaper articles and it's, "Poor Kristaps Finally Fed Up With the Evil Knicks".
He will have spent three seasons with one of the best run franchises in sports, with an excellent culture and competence from top to bottom.
He's going to leave that for the Knicks?
I just get the feeling the Knicks will end up with Kemba and Cousins and never be quite good enough to really be a title contender.
The difference between now and the previous time the Knicks had ample cap space is they actually have their own draft picks and some young players. That should make it less likely that the Knicks feel the need to splurge on a less than elite free agent.
build a successful team in the NBA without a superstar? Is there no way to develop young talent and win a title? I dont think theres another sport where this is true. Even MLB which only has luxury tax penalties, it can and has been done. I would have thought that this teaming up and bouncing around that players do would hurt the sports popularity and thereby screw the players, but it doesnt seem to be. It really makes me appreciate the parity of the NFL a a lot. Even though the Patriots are in the Super Bowl every year, it isnt from every good player going to one team for a few years. Once a player leaves the Giants I dont really care or pay that much attention to them anymore. Obvious Giant greats that go elsewhere at the end of their career I still love, but even then I dont follow them that closely.
As far as I can tell basketball players get paid a ton and the sport isnt declining in popularity to my knowledge so I guess it doesnt bother people as much.
*I dont know, follow, or have an idea about hockey so I dont know where they would fall in this. I did used to work across the street from the Boston Garden and saw a ton of Bruins games, really cool sport live, even when I dont know anything.
Emotional reactions are very entertaining to read.
My thoughts:
Every fair trade is going to hurt for both sides. Given that there are both Knicks fans that are upset and Mavs fans that are upset, it at least has to be somewhere in the realm of fair.
Some upset Knicks fans are complaining that DSjr is an inefficient volume shooter. They seem to forget last year when KP would often settle for contested off balance jumpers from the elbow most of the game. After the first 10 games last year KP really fell back down to earth. Granted he has huge potential, but people speak about him as if him unlocking his potential is guaranteed.
That all said, trading KP to clear cap space is tough to swallow. The two 1st rounders help it go down a bit easier.
This fiasco is why I wanted the Knicks to sign KP to a contract with injury clauses in it this past off season, regardless of how it would affect the Knicks cap. Given the reports though, now we don't know if it was the Knicks or KP who wouldn't do the deal. I have no info on this but I wouldn't be surprised if the Knicks did try to sign him, he said no, and the Knicks spun it to the media that they didn't sign him so they could have cap space.
Overall, I agree with those that say this is a gamble:
1) If the Knicks can land two big free agents, it will work out.
2) If the Knicks miss on free agency and don't waste their cap space on long term contracts for mediocre players, it's still not the end of the world. I actually still give Perry more of the benefit of the doubt than most here. I would not be surprised if the Knicks are still tanking next year with multiple 1 year contracts on the books. It's possible that maxing KP would have locked the Knicks into mediocrity for the next 4 years
3) If KP doesn't pan out, gets hurt, or leaves the Mavs the Knicks "win" the trade regardless.
4) Lastly, is the doomsday scenerio where KP becomes a superstar and the Knicks spend all of their cap space on mediocre talent and don't go anywhere for the next four years. If this happens, well then ugh.
It seems to me, that as long as the Knicks continue to make smart decisions going forward then chances are that this isn't the worst trade in the world as some seem to think it is.
...want to sign with an epic shit franchise like the New York Knicks?
Several people have given their opinion on this in the thread but I guess easier to just ask again so you can insult the franchise??
Simple answer: it's the Knicks (only pro sports team in the city that gets the entire city behind it) and you get to play in the Garden 41+ times a year....the chance to be the savior of that?? Someone, someday will be the savior .and when it happens they will own the city in a way that no player has.
An emergency edition of his podcast yesterday covering this madness. It was a pretty good hour. Painful to hear it all as a Knicks fan, but funny and entertaining.
At one point they talk for a moment about where did it all go wrong for the Knicks that lead to them being this much of a joke. One of the guys on the show suggested it was in signing Amare, which seems like low-hanging fruit. Simmons made (what I thought was) a great point the issue wasnt signing Amare, really. It was idiotically using the amnesty buyout on a Chauncey Billups contract that wasnt bad and had pretty much no term left, just so they could sign Chandler and create their fugazy version of a Big 3.
If they had held on to their amnesty long enough to use it on Amare, the Melonera could have gone a lot better.
Which is not to say they wouldnt have found another way to fuck it all up...
Anyway, that BS podcast is worth a listen if you have 45 or an hour to kill.
i still dont love it, but i dont hate it. I really just wish the young player we got back was a little better then DSJ. DSJ had a good first few months, but really struggled towards the end of the year. Maybe it was just the "rookie wall" but then it seemed to carry over to this year. Sure maybe it was the pairing with doncic which on paper wasnt a great fit for him.
The 2 firsts did make me feel a lot better, especially the unprotected one. PIcks in the NBA are much more valued around the league then say 5-10 years ago.
The knicks should put a list of like 4 names on a white board. It should be KD, Irving, Kawhi, Klay. Those are the only guys id want to max and im not honestly even sure on Klay. If they strike out on them then offer reasonable deals to Kemba, Boogie, harris, middleton, etc.. but not max. If you dont get them fine. Keep the space. One of the issues we had with the caspace this year was we had to use it because we had to sign KP soon and hew was going to eat a ton up, we dont have that anymore. Be that 3rd team in a trade that makes money work and gets youth/picks out of it, sign guys to big 1 year deals and trade them later for assets, etc.. Please dont spend just to spend.
RE: RE: Why would ANY top flight NBA free agent...
...want to sign with an epic shit franchise like the New York Knicks?
Several people have given their opinion on this in the thread but I guess easier to just ask again so you can insult the franchise??
Simple answer: it's the Knicks (only pro sports team in the city that gets the entire city behind it) and you get to play in the Garden 41+ times a year....the chance to be the savior of that?? Someone, someday will be the savior .and when it happens they will own the city in a way that no player has.
Not to mention, it seems a lot of players around the NBA love Fizdale. That's gotta help.
Exactly - I get the collective frustration after 20 years of Knicks lulz, but this is the first time theyve stopped trying to sign/trade for middling talent to shoot for the 8th playoff spot and actually committed to a total teardown/rebuild.
Will take a couple years to see how they do with the plan, but they have all their draft picks, including what should be a top 3 this year, and plenty of cap space now. This is completely different than any other point of the 2 decade Knicks debacle.
Now, lets see what they do with these resources. Im sure well be disappointed all over again during free agency this summer, but at least theyre trying something sensible now.
I never really understood how the NBA draft worked
so I just read up on it. Who determines the 4 ping pong codes for each team and is that known to us as fans or do they just do the reveal on ESPN so nobody but Ernst and Young sees it?
but if KP wanted out, there's literally nothing they could have done but try to get the best deal possible for a player who made it clear he wasnt going to re-sign.
They can pay two top stars without having to give up anything, and they have a young guy that has some real potential and a chance this year to add a top 3 draft pick. That's not a situation they have ever been in before.
like Dennis Smith Jr is going extremely untalked about. He's 21 averaging 13 and 6 in the month of January. He's immediately the best PG on this roster, as well as probably the best scorer.
RE: I never really understood how the NBA draft worked
so I just read up on it. Who determines the 4 ping pong codes for each team and is that known to us as fans or do they just do the reveal on ESPN so nobody but Ernst and Young sees it?
Do you mean the odds of winning a certain pick? Those are known and published.
RE: RE: I never really understood how the NBA draft worked
so I just read up on it. Who determines the 4 ping pong codes for each team and is that known to us as fans or do they just do the reveal on ESPN so nobody but Ernst and Young sees it?
Do you mean the odds of winning a certain pick? Those are known and published.
No, not the odds. I get that. I am saying whem they pull our 4 ping pong balls and get that 4 digit code then how do we know what team that coincides with.
Has anyone heard his comments? Guy is a complete clown. Zero reason to have any faith in this guy. Just traded Porzingis to get rid of his mistakes.
And please stop with all the trust in Scott Perry. This guy isnt exactly Sam Presti. What exactly has he done well ?
Lastly, cap space is the most overrated thing in sports. Its nice to say you have it, but you actually need good players. And the Knicks just traded away by far their best player for peanuts on the dollar.
Has anyone heard his comments? Guy is a complete clown. Zero reason to have any faith in this guy. Just traded Porzingis to get rid of his mistakes.
And please stop with all the trust in Scott Perry. This guy isnt exactly Sam Presti. What exactly has he done well ?
Lastly, cap space is the most overrated thing in sports. Its nice to say you have it, but you actually need good players. And the Knicks just traded away by far their best player for peanuts on the dollar.
you realize kp was never resigning here and not going to recruit anybody..
They have never done it.. they have been mired in mediocrity for years, always landing only the 2nd tier players.. not to mention they have had TERRIBLE lottery luck. I read an article sometime in the last year or 2 about how they have had the worst lottery luck of any team since Ewing.
So... if they can land 2 of Durant, Irving, Leonard this summer and get a top 3 pick, then we're rocking and rolling..
But... if they miss on the lottery and can't get 2 of those 3...then the question is will they have the patience to do the right thing and tank again?
Basically they can only build the right team now, they can't waste this and build a team that isn't a championship contender.
Last point/question: Is anyone worried about KD's age? Maybe we would be better off with Kyrie, Kawhi because they are each 3 years younger...
After sleeping on it, my view is changing a bit...
I still don't trust the Knicks whatsoever, so I doubt this ends up with them signing two legit superstars. That kind of luck just doesn't go the Knicks way.
With that being said, the timing on this made it right. If Porzingis truly didn't want to be here, you can't go into the off-season with him as your recruiting tool. Plus, what superstar is coming to the Knicks to play with Porzingis, who hasn't been on the court in over a year and has been hampered by nagging injuries prior to the knee.
If the Knicks wait to deal him in the off-season, they miss out on their opportunity at two max contracts, and they sell him for $0.75 on the $1.00.
Bottom line is, I hate the way today's NBA is constructed, thanks to LeBron and his manipulative past. The players have too much leverage, and hold the teams (and fans) hostage. I've come to grips with this, for now, but I'm still very skeptical on this ending well for the Knicks.
They have never done it.. they have been mired in mediocrity for years, always landing only the 2nd tier players.. not to mention they have had TERRIBLE lottery luck. I read an article sometime in the last year or 2 about how they have had the worst lottery luck of any team since Ewing.
So... if they can land 2 of Durant, Irving, Leonard this summer and get a top 3 pick, then we're rocking and rolling..
But... if they miss on the lottery and can't get 2 of those 3...then the question is will they have the patience to do the right thing and tank again?
Basically they can only build the right team now, they can't waste this and build a team that isn't a championship contender.
Last point/question: Is anyone worried about KD's age? Maybe we would be better off with Kyrie, Kawhi because they are each 3 years younger...
Not really worried about his age mainly because he can only get a 4 year deal.
can be both overvalued and undervalued. Overvalued if your like the Knicks and continuously misuse it on marginal to poor talent every time its available. Undervalued when you could use it as an asset to rent it out until the right time and pick up draft picks / other assets along the way. Unfortunately the Knicks are incapable of the 2nd option and are more likely to hand out bad contracts this year especially after the media will crucify them if they come out empty handed after this trade. Dolan's fragile ego won't let them do smart things with the cap space if they whiff on the big 4 guys out there. That's the scariest part of the deal; the fact that everyone knows there is no chance in hell the Knicks can sit on the cap space if they whiff on the big names and that they will most definitely use it stupidly.
The New York Knicks are the biggest embarrassment in professional sports. Week after week it's something new. It's either on the court or off the court, but the Knicks are bound to leave this city feeling ashamed.
Who comes close? The Lions? The Jets? Things are looking up for the Browns.
it's highly unlikely the Knicks make this move if they didn't have prior knowledge of something.
I think it's Durant and I think Durant's people probably said something like "yea we'd have interest but he needs to recruit" hence the space for second max.
Who do you think Durant feels better about? Porzingis coming off an ACL tear? Or Irving/Leonard?
There's also this year's pick which could possibly turn into Zion, Barrett, Morant or part of a deal for Davis.
arguments going on Twitter right now. DSJ has a pretty good sized fan base, a lot of guys really coming to his defense. Surprising number of people are saying DSJ will be great away from Doncic, a good amount are posed off Dallas fans. I figured they would be in heaven over this deal. An uneducated observation from myself is that KP is a walking injury. His frame just looks awkward and like he is gonna break down. Again, this is just a silly observation from a casual fan.
I mean the guy was like 14 at the time of the tweet, but still
The New York Knicks are the biggest embarrassment in professional sports. Week after week it's something new. It's either on the court or off the court, but the Knicks are bound to leave this city feeling ashamed.
Who comes close? The Lions? The Jets? Things are looking up for the Browns.
it is funny you say embarrassment because every single analyst has said this is a good deal
If he wasn't gonna sign, the Knicks were in a shitty position. I hope that they've been working on this on the DL for a long time because otherwise, it looks like they threw a shit fit and booted him and that would be disheartening.
When they completely strike out in free agency, if they have the good sense to not waste max deals on mediocre players just because, I'll actually become a little bit optimistic. Time will tell.
People keep saying he didnt want to resign. But was he really going to make a 140 million bet on it? There is no chance hes playing on that QO.
The Knicks held all the leverage and instead sold low and got very little value for a 22 year old all star.
I actually admire a lot of peoples optimisim. But how can you have any faith in this regime. Just look at the track record! Howd Mills do with that cap space in 2016 and 2017?
I hope Im wrong but I just dont see Irving and Durant signing up for this. This roster currently doesnt have any good nba players. Young guys may have potential, but currently they are no good players. Bottom line.
People keep saying he didnt want to resign. But was he really going to make a 140 million bet on it? There is no chance hes playing on that QO.
The Knicks held all the leverage and instead sold low and got very little value for a 22 year old all star.
I actually admire a lot of peoples optimisim. But how can you have any faith in this regime. Just look at the track record! Howd Mills do with that cap space in 2016 and 2017?
I hope Im wrong but I just dont see Irving and Durant signing up for this. This roster currently doesnt have any good nba players. Young guys may have potential, but currently they are no good players. Bottom line.
umm it has already been announced that he is playing on the qualifying offer
Maybe they can find a mad scientist who can meld DSJ and Frenchy
People keep saying he didnt want to resign. But was he really going to make a 140 million bet on it? There is no chance hes playing on that QO.
The Knicks held all the leverage and instead sold low and got very little value for a 22 year old all star.
I actually admire a lot of peoples optimisim. But how can you have any faith in this regime. Just look at the track record! Howd Mills do with that cap space in 2016 and 2017?
I hope Im wrong but I just dont see Irving and Durant signing up for this. This roster currently doesnt have any good nba players. Young guys may have potential, but currently they are no good players. Bottom line.
I don't think they had much leverage at all. You saw it with Leonard, you are seeing it with Davis, and you just saw it with KP. Once these guys make it known they don't want to play for the team anymore, their value plummets. Everyone knew KP was unhappy, this shouldn't be shocking.
16, you're a very loyal fan. But why would a top FA want to
come to an organization as dysfunctional as this? I sure wouldn't hitch my wagon to a team whose last good GM might have been Holzman, and whose owner is still that dipshit Dolan. And who just traded away the only homegrown star they've had since Ewing.
And for Dennis Smith, who Dallas has wanted to trade, and who we likely would have drafted if we'd been run by someone other than Phil Jackson. But, of course, with this team switching directions every 5 minutes, we have a guy in Nitilkina who has no confidence and no shot, as well as no Porzingis.
and maybe he will sign with Dallas. It's clear he's been unhappy with the team here. He also could be getting really bad advice from his family.
At the end of the day, if he's not gonna sign, you have to trade him. I'm not sure they got the best deal they could have, but if you look back, it seems he really was unhappy here and wasn't gonna sign. So, bye. Dallas can take the risk of signing him to a max deal and hoping he stays healthy.
Id bet the farm he takes a max contract. No one has ever turned in down and played on the QO. And and he wont be the first especially with his injury. And hes a restricted FA- you can match any offer. Unless hes willing to make a 140 million dollar bet, he had no avenue to leave. Only the Knicks have had this type of situation with this caliber of player at this stage of his career. Players leave after the 2nd contract. Only the Knicks....
And maybe he was unhappy. How about making things right with him? Isnt thats what Fizdale/ Mills/ Perry are supposed to be good at building relationships? Because they arent good at anything else.
But dont worry. Steve Mills is going to get Durant and Kyrie to leave the 2 best franchises in the league to come here....
RE: 16, you're a very loyal fan. But why would a top FA want to
come to an organization as dysfunctional as this? I sure wouldn't hitch my wagon to a team whose last good GM might have been Holzman, and whose owner is still that dipshit Dolan. And who just traded away the only homegrown star they've had since Ewing.
And for Dennis Smith, who Dallas has wanted to trade, and who we likely would have drafted if we'd been run by someone other than Phil Jackson. But, of course, with this team switching directions every 5 minutes, we have a guy in Nitilkina who has no confidence and no shot, as well as no Porzingis.
first off kp was not staying...
second how did they switch directions? plan was alwsys sign a max and tank...
now they have room for 2 max slots, what is more appealing signing to play with kp or signing and bringing a friend?
and how are they dysfunctional? because they traded a player that told them he didnt want to be hrtr
can be both overvalued and undervalued. Overvalued if your like the Knicks and continuously misuse it on marginal to poor talent every time its available. Undervalued when you could use it as an asset to rent it out until the right time and pick up draft picks / other assets along the way. Unfortunately the Knicks are incapable of the 2nd option and are more likely to hand out bad contracts this year especially after the media will crucify them if they come out empty handed after this trade. Dolan's fragile ego won't let them do smart things with the cap space if they whiff on the big 4 guys out there. That's the scariest part of the deal; the fact that everyone knows there is no chance in hell the Knicks can sit on the cap space if they whiff on the big names and that they will most definitely use it stupidly.
I hope it isn't the case but lets assume that the Knicks do strike out in free agency. I disagree that the media will influence the Knicks into wasting their cap space on marginal players. Will there be voices screaming that the Knicks are dumb for trading KP and then not signing anybody big... sure. But most people seem to agree that if the Knicks do miss all of the big fish that the best option is to just sign short term deals and roll the cap space over into the following season. Assuming that's the case, doesn't it imply that the media would actually be pressuring the Knicks into not wasting their money on sub-par talent?
People claimed that the media in NY would not let the Knicks tank properly, but before this trade there seemed to be as many media members lauding the Knicks for finally "tanking properly" as there were complaining about how bad they are. I think going forward things will have a similar outcome with some media complaining and some not. As pasted earlier in this thread the espn writer guy actually liked the trade better for the Knicks than the Mavs.
My point is, regardless of how poor the Knicks have been run for the past few decades, Perry is still relatively new to this job. In my opinion those that assume the worst case scenario is the only possible outcome of this trade are being short sighted.
Id bet the farm he takes a max contract. No one has ever turned in down and played on the QO. And and he wont be the first especially with his injury. And hes a restricted FA- you can match any offer. Unless hes willing to make a 140 million dollar bet, he had no avenue to leave. Only the Knicks have had this type of situation with this caliber of player at this stage of his career. Players leave after the 2nd contract. Only the Knicks....
And maybe he was unhappy. How about making things right with him? Isnt thats what Fizdale/ Mills/ Perry are supposed to be good at building relationships? Because they arent good at anything else.
But dont worry. Steve Mills is going to get Durant and Kyrie to leave the 2 best franchises in the league to come here....
fizdale flew to fricjen latvia to make him happy, what else do you want?
his brother was telling the knicks who they could and could not sign...
Id bet the farm he takes a max contract. No one has ever turned in down and played on the QO. And and he wont be the first especially with his injury. And hes a restricted FA- you can match any offer. Unless hes willing to make a 140 million dollar bet, he had no avenue to leave. Only the Knicks have had this type of situation with this caliber of player at this stage of his career. Players leave after the 2nd contract. Only the Knicks....
And maybe he was unhappy. How about making things right with him? Isnt thats what Fizdale/ Mills/ Perry are supposed to be good at building relationships? Because they arent good at anything else.
But dont worry. Steve Mills is going to get Durant and Kyrie to leave the 2 best franchises in the league to come here....
It's not just about KP taking the max contract. If he's unhappy, he could demand a trade after he signs it. They could say no but it could become an ugly, public battle. What people aren't talking about is the fact that before this deal, the Knicks really had this offseason to strike big in FA, otherwise they had to wait until THJ came off the books (2021) because once KP signs that max deal his cap number is too big to fit a max in. If he's unhappy publicly, it would've likely been detrimental to their chances with anyone.
They've been trying to make things right with KP since Phil was canned. It didn't matter because his brother thinks he's Jerry Maguire and in turn was trying to dictate what moves the Knicks could/couldn't make. KP has not been good enough or durable enough to be dictating the team's moves.
What did the Knicks have to make right with Porzingis?
Id bet the farm he takes a max contract. No one has ever turned in down and played on the QO. And and he wont be the first especially with his injury. And hes a restricted FA- you can match any offer. Unless hes willing to make a 140 million dollar bet, he had no avenue to leave. Only the Knicks have had this type of situation with this caliber of player at this stage of his career. Players leave after the 2nd contract. Only the Knicks....
And maybe he was unhappy. How about making things right with him? Isnt thats what Fizdale/ Mills/ Perry are supposed to be good at building relationships? Because they arent good at anything else.
But dont worry. Steve Mills is going to get Durant and Kyrie to leave the 2 best franchises in the league to come here....
I think they tried with KP..
He just hasn't seemed to buy in to the only plan that makes sense..
Instead of trying to act like he wants to come back this year and being disgruntled... come out with a statement saying "I am going to spend this year focusing on getting strong and preparing for the 2019-20 season." Then go into the shadows, let the team tank, and recruit your ass off. That's what the Knicks needed from KP.
He and his brothers just didn't seem to understand the concept.
All he has to do is look at the 76ers.
Building a competitive team in the NBA is very simple. It's not easy being patient. But the concept is very simple.
This isn't the NFL. The idea of franchises holding 'leverage' over players doesn't work the same. Players self-determine in the NBA. Jimmy fucking Butler has won nothing and gets to decide where he wants to play.
Steve Mills is not the GM. He hasn't been the GM since Perry took the job. It's silly. We're making Steve Mills out to be a james bond villain. Scott Perry is a legitimate NBA executive.
The New York Knicks are the biggest embarrassment in professional sports. Week after week it's something new. It's either on the court or off the court, but the Knicks are bound to leave this city feeling ashamed.
Who comes close? The Lions? The Jets? Things are looking up for the Browns.
it is funny you say embarrassment because every single analyst has said this is a good deal
This x 100. I've yet to see an intelligent basketball analyst kill the deal for the Knicks. The ones who are killing the deal for the Knicks are the guys who make a living off of quick, surface-level, loud, exaggerated statements and the NY media who would kill anything they did including signing KP to a max because 1) they hate Dolan and 2) they know that their best shot at getting eyeballs on their dying papers is over-the-top negativity.
Steve Mills is not the GM. He hasn't been the GM since Perry took the job. It's silly. We're making Steve Mills out to be a james bond villain. Scott Perry is a legitimate NBA executive.
Well, for one thing, he's been a Knicks executive for almost the entire period of abject failure and seems to have employment for life for no apparent reason. I think there's plenty of reason to question how much authority Perry actually has when Dolan's longtime lackey is still in a position of power.
They just traded away the guy Mills blew his wad over and had to have.
You can say he's not in charge, or he doesn't have that much impact - but he's there, despite a horrifyingly bad track record. There's really no reason or excuse for it, and the team continues to suck.
RE: They just traded away the guy Mills blew his wad over and had to have.
Feels like if Mills was actually doing anything to exert control over the team, that wouldn't have gone down that way.
Yeah regardless if you like the move or not, or if it even works out or not; this move looks far more as Perry trying to fix things as he sees it than Mills handling it.
and maybe he will sign with Dallas. It's clear he's been unhappy with the team here. He also could be getting really bad advice from his family.
At the end of the day, if he's not gonna sign, you have to trade him. I'm not sure they got the best deal they could have, but if you look back, it seems he really was unhappy here and wasn't gonna sign. So, bye. Dallas can take the risk of signing him to a max deal and hoping he stays healthy.
The odds of an oft-injured player staying healthy are not that great, especially when you consider the number of injuries he has had for his age, I think it's the right move.
RE: What did the Knicks have to make right with Porzingis?
Tried to repeatedly trade him. Publicly shit on him. Gave him 4 coaches in 3 seasons and surrounded him with bad players. Lied about his rehab and condition. But aside from that they treated him great.
And you can think whatever you want, Steve Mills is president and above Perry. And Perry is a first time GM. Boggles my mind how people have such faith in these 2.
I'm just saying, given what we know about how Dolan operates
So Ill say it. Other than a star player if someone wants my total support. Take fucking KP out! Right at the god damn knee! And I really dont care some of the new generation will whine so be it.
Basically they traded Porzingis for three 1st rounders, one of which is Smith, cap room and probably a lot of clarity. I'm not sure if Porzingis wouldn't have caved eventually but the neverending drama of signing an extension and finding enough cap room to add signifcant players would have made the next months difficult.
What hurts is that amid all the chaos Porzingis and the tank seemed to be the moves they had finally gotten right. Now it's down to the tank and free agency. Two big ifs.
What bothers me about the idea of Durant and Irving: Durant is 31 years old when next season starts, and he's got a lot of mileage. And Irving has been injured quite often in previous years. Betting the future on those two, if they come at all, comes with its own set of risks.
is coming and bringing Irving with him. Also have hopefully a top 3 pick, Knox, Robinson and all draft assets plus they get rid of a malcontent and his asshole brother.
Huge risk no doubt but huge reward also. As a Knick fan I'll take that.
RE: Mills is the Knicks version of Quinn, but with a lot more
You can say he's not in charge, or he doesn't have that much impact - but he's there, despite a horrifyingly bad track record. There's really no reason or excuse for it, and the team continues to suck.
What exactly is his "deeply horrifying track record"? Prior to returning to the Knicks in 2013, Mills was on the business side of MSG. He had nothing to do with personnel moves. Then months into being re-hired by them but this time on the basketball side, they brought in Phil Jackson to be his boss who clearly the one pulling the strings and making all the decisions. Sure, he made the decision to sign Hardaway to that albatross contract which was a terrible decision but it's literally the only impactful decision Mills has ever really made that effects the Knicks personnel.
RE: RE: What did the Knicks have to make right with Porzingis?
Tried to repeatedly trade him. Publicly shit on him. Gave him 4 coaches in 3 seasons and surrounded him with bad players. Lied about his rehab and condition. But aside from that they treated him great.
And you can think whatever you want, Steve Mills is president and above Perry. And Perry is a first time GM. Boggles my mind how people have such faith in these 2.
One, I have not seen anybody support Mills so I am not sure what you are talking about. Two, I have not seen anybody praise Perry. What I have said is I give him the benefit of the doubt as of now. Since he has been here he has brought in guys like Knox, Robinson, and Trier. He brought in Fis. He dumped both Hardaway and Lee while getting DSJ and 2 firsts. Yes, it took Porzingis to do it but being realistic Porzingis was trying to hold us hostage. This trade is incomplete until we see what happens with these max slots. So, I for one have said he deserves the benefit of the doubt here. Nobody is verbally blowing the guy.
RE: RE: Mills is the Knicks version of Quinn, but with a lot more
Basically they traded Porzingis for three 1st rounders, one of which is Smith, cap room and probably a lot of clarity. I'm not sure if Porzingis wouldn't have caved eventually but the neverending drama of signing an extension and finding enough cap room to add signifcant players would have made the next months difficult.
What hurts is that amid all the chaos Porzingis and the tank seemed to be the moves they had finally gotten right. Now it's down to the tank and free agency. Two big ifs.
What bothers me about the idea of Durant and Irving: Durant is 31 years old when next season starts, and he's got a lot of mileage. And Irving has been injured quite often in previous years. Betting the future on those two, if they come at all, comes with its own set of risks.
It's a risk for sure but Durant is the type of player who I think will age well given his length for defensive purposes and his shooting ability. It's not like his game is solely breaking down the defense and relying on his athleticism to do so. While not the same archetype, Nowitzki for example had some of his best years from ages 31-34 including leading the Mavs to a title.
RE: RE: RE: Mills is the Knicks version of Quinn, but with a lot more
I still don't trust the Knicks whatsoever, so I doubt this ends up with them signing two legit superstars. That kind of luck just doesn't go the Knicks way.
With that being said, the timing on this made it right. If Porzingis truly didn't want to be here, you can't go into the off-season with him as your recruiting tool. Plus, what superstar is coming to the Knicks to play with Porzingis, who hasn't been on the court in over a year and has been hampered by nagging injuries prior to the knee.
If the Knicks wait to deal him in the off-season, they miss out on their opportunity at two max contracts, and they sell him for $0.75 on the $1.00.
Bottom line is, I hate the way today's NBA is constructed, thanks to LeBron and his manipulative past. The players have too much leverage, and hold the teams (and fans) hostage. I've come to grips with this, for now, but I'm still very skeptical on this ending well for the Knicks.
Good post. I tend to agree it will not end well. But they have put themselves in a position where they can sign two max free agents, which gives them a shot at KD/Kyrie or some other combo with Leonard.
If those guys don't want to come to NY, what can they do? Nobody was coming to NY for a chance to pair with an injured KP. A lot of Knicks fans grossly overestimate the appeal of Porzingas. He was a top 20 player. Not a top five player. Throw in the injury concerns and he was not much of an inducement.
Unlike Donnie, Perry did not mortgage the future to clear cap space. In fact, he added two first round picks. So, the Knicks can continue their rebuild if they miss out on elite FA.
RE: RE: RE: Mills is the Knicks version of Quinn, but with a lot more
What exactly is his "deeply horrifying track record"?
Isn't he the guy who advised Dolan to hire Isiah?
He may have given his stamp of approval but it was Magic Johnson who initially suggested the Knicks hire Isiah. Either way, while a dumb decision that crippled the franchise for a long time, it's not a player personnel move and nobody is holding that poor judgement against Magic, are they?
1. How quickly this all transpired. If happened over a longer period of time and it ended up being the best deal available, it would have been easier to digest. It all came out before reports that they talked with NOLA, and before whatever else is about to come out.
2. Porzingis is the first potential franchise superstar player the Knicks have drafted since Ewing. There was so much promise there. And they shipped him off to clear their own bad contracts that were bad at the time of the signing and bring back a player they passed over in the draft and still hasn't shown potential to be a winner.
I realize that this regime isn't the ones that made those decisions, but there is still enough overlap. And when you have the same rotten organization making incompetent decisions for decades, I think it's fair for the fans to treat the organization with that same owner as a continuous entity.
Yes, the Knicks can bring in two max contracts now. But if you believed that KP was worth a max contract (I was very concerned), then you already had that player on the roster and could still figure out a way to bring in another max player, while getting a top draft pick.
I like teams swinging for the fences. But the Knicks as an organization have shown a horrific track record of decision-making, so it's hard to get too excited.
is if you think KP and his 7'3" body will avoid the chronic injuries that almost all players his height have had.
Most end up with career-ending foot injuries. Smits, Sabonis, Eaton, Yao Ming, Shaun Bradley.
The list of players 7'2" and taller who have had significant injuries is much longer than the list of those who haven't.
We don't even need to talk about Muersan and the giganticism part.
This is true but the other thing I hardly ever see discussed is the fact that every single year KP has shown clear regression as the season wore on. He looked gassed on a nightly basis and became less effective as a result. Of course, this was usually the point in time in which fans lost interest in the Knicks so it's not a surprise that many didn't notice but if your conditioning isn't up to snuff by your third season in the NBA, we have to wonder if it has more to do with his frame than anything else. How can a guy like that carry a team?
is what they do with Jordan and Matthews. Those two along with DSJ could really screw up this tank. They simply cannot allow those guys to play any minutes. If they cant trade them, buy them out. Im nervous about them saying that they can help the young guys. Hopefully just lip service until they are gone, but its something to monitor
is what they do with Jordan and Matthews. Those two along with DSJ could really screw up this tank. They simply cannot allow those guys to play any minutes. If they cant trade them, buy them out. Im nervous about them saying that they can help the young guys. Hopefully just lip service until they are gone, but its something to monitor
1. How quickly this all transpired. If happened over a longer period of time and it ended up being the best deal available, it would have been easier to digest. It all came out before reports that they talked with NOLA, and before whatever else is about to come out.
2. Porzingis is the first potential franchise superstar player the Knicks have drafted since Ewing. There was so much promise there. And they shipped him off to clear their own bad contracts that were bad at the time of the signing and bring back a player they passed over in the draft and still hasn't shown potential to be a winner.
I realize that this regime isn't the ones that made those decisions, but there is still enough overlap. And when you have the same rotten organization making incompetent decisions for decades, I think it's fair for the fans to treat the organization with that same owner as a continuous entity.
Yes, the Knicks can bring in two max contracts now. But if you believed that KP was worth a max contract (I was very concerned), then you already had that player on the roster and could still figure out a way to bring in another max player, while getting a top draft pick.
I like teams swinging for the fences. But the Knicks as an organization have shown a horrific track record of decision-making, so it's hard to get too excited.
Just because you think this trade happened fast doesn't mean it did. Supposedly he was shopped for awhile as a backup plan if he wasn't going to sign long term with us. When he made that clear and said he wanted to be traded that was just the tipping point.
Yes, you have a right to hate this franchise. They have doje nothing but disappoint. That is understandable and logical.
is what they do with Jordan and Matthews. Those two along with DSJ could really screw up this tank. They simply cannot allow those guys to play any minutes. If they cant trade them, buy them out. Im nervous about them saying that they can help the young guys. Hopefully just lip service until they are gone, but its something to monitor
and what happens when he signed the qualifying offer and the knicks lost him for nothing?
Exactly. That was the total nightmare scenario and Knicks avoided it.
And quite honestly, I don't think they could have gotten more than a decent young player with two cheap years left, a totally unprotected 1st, and a 1st protected for 1-10. That's more than the Knicks gave up for Melo imo.
is what they do with Jordan and Matthews. Those two along with DSJ could really screw up this tank. They simply cannot allow those guys to play any minutes. If they cant trade them, buy them out. Im nervous about them saying that they can help the young guys. Hopefully just lip service until they are gone, but its something to monitor
They'll probably hold onto them until the deadline and see if they can get an asset or two in return before buying them out. I don't think any of those guys are good enough to change the Knicks' fortunes right now though. I do wonder if they want to hold onto Jordan as someone who Robinson can learn from given the similar mold and Jordan's success in the NBA. If he's willing of course.
I was thinking about it last night and I actually think playing in the previous era helped guys like Sabonis and Yao, even though it was more physical. No way either play could run and gun in todays NBA. And thats the problem I see with KP, as a stretch 4 his peak is in that role. If his injuries prevent him from moving and reacting quickly, hes finished in that role. He will then have to learn to play like a 5.
I like this for the knicks, shows me they learned from the mistakes with Melo.
I think now is also the time to re-evaluate the front office
They have completely stripped the roster. They have room for two max contracts next year. They have Kevin Knox, and they are in position to get a top pick in the draft.
This is the time for the Knicks to audit themselves and ask if they have the best possible President/GM braintrust available to design this future. They are effectively the new Founding Fathers and will be making franchise-altering decisions.
I have no ability to evaluate Mills but I trust Mills over Dolan because no one is worse than Dolan.
So, effectively, Mills has to take time and really ask if Scott Perry is the best possible architect available. It's not about what Perry has done thus far. It's about right here, right now.
If Steve Mills could have anyone in the world to try and pitch max guys and have the awareness of how to build out the roster, and how to build an analytics department-- who would he hire? If someone is on that list ahead of Scott Perry, I think he owes it to the franchise to inquire.
The Knicks are NOT done trading. Many of the contenders have BIG holes to fill before a playoff run.
Because the Knicks were over the cap, they cannot trade Matthews or Jordan together with other players- but they CAN trade them individually and get multiple players/picks back.
For example, the Sixers need wing scoring and a PF. The Knicks could offer Matthews to the Sixers for Chandler and Korkmaz (Chandler for Matthews alone comes up about $750,000 short) and some picks.
Keep in mind that the Sixers "own" the Knicks 2020 and 2021 second round picks. In addition, the Sixers have the Bulls 2019 second rounder. The Knicks could ask for their own picks back, or just aim for the Chicago pick, which will have solid value (that's about where they got Robinson last year).
Another option- Capela is likely out for the majority of the regular season- and may be limited when he returns for Houston. Trading Jordan for Knight and Criss and filler like Gerald Green and picks. Houston is in a dogfight to hols playoff position- they are 6th in the West- with the Jazz, Clippers, Lakers all within 3 games of them- and are only 2 games out of the 4 seed. They have incentive to make a deal.
Houston has all of its 1st rounders going forward. The Knicks already have Houston's 2nd rounder in 2019. Houston probably doesn't mind sending out a 1st since they can safely assume that these aren't difference making picks (at least for Houston). However, the Knicks need to collect assets, so any 1st rounder is valuable.
Along the same lines, the Clippers are in a playoff spot, but are REALLY weak in the paint- and are VERY familiar with Jordan. A trade of Jordan for Gortat, Teodosic and a 2021 1st (the Clips already traded their 2019 1st rounder to Boston) would work as well.
The Lakers are weak in shooting from deep and LeBron is back. Matthews makes sense there in a deal for Rondo and Stephenson (plus a minimum salary filler) and picks. The Lakers have all of their picks except for their 2019 second rounder. Matthews makes sense as an expiring, which won't hinder their FA plans this summer, while still giving them a vet deep threat for the playoffs.
There are other moves that make sense. Kanter is a flawed player who is hard to trade, but Matthews and Jordan may fit the contenders better.
Just because you think this trade happened fast doesn't mean it did. Supposedly he was shopped for awhile as a backup plan if he wasn't going to sign long term with us. When he made that clear and said he wanted to be traded that was just the tipping point.
Yes, you have a right to hate this franchise. They have doje nothing but disappoint. That is understandable and logical.
Right. I'm saying how it all went down to the fans is what makes it a lot harder to digest. Fans were completely blindsided. All they got was "KP wants out" and in the blink of an eye there was a full deal done.
My hope is that the Knicks did exhaustive due diligence to see what they could have gotten back and didn't just capitulate to the first offer that cleared space.
part that I don't really like is the quotes that came out yesterday from Mills and Perry and the timeline of all events. Parts of this ordeal just does not feel kosher. Put all facts on the table; Knicks refused to offer KP a max contract over the past off-season since they wanted the extra cap space provided this coming off-season; they have supposedly been canvasing the league of potential KP trade deals for the last couple of months; they have a meeting out of the blue yesterday morning with Porzingis where they claim he was not completely on board with the plan we laid out" and Scott Perry said he "no longer wanted to be a part of our group".
What exactly is "completely on board" with the plan? Did he just have some questions that he wanted answered; like how are you going to build the team around me when were saddled with stiffs like THJ? And what is "no longer wanted to be a part of our group"? The Knicks act like its all KP's fault that this happened, but in the same breathe say they have been seeking a potential trade of him for a while and refused to commit to him fully just a few months ago.
Why do I get the feeling that this meeting was a planned sit down to tell him, look, we have a deal lined up that would trade you to Dallas for cap relief and first round picks; you can either stay and we have to get rid of our remaining assets just to get a swing at a big free agency and hope ping pong balls fall our way, or we can let you go. KP says he doesn't like that plan and then you get the Knicks great spin machine who knows KP has said and done some dumb things in the past so fans are already weary of him. Sure he could have said he wasn't on board with giving up assets without knowing what free agency may lead to; he did play with Carmelo whom the Knicks asked to take a pay cut to help build a team only to see the Knicks give that money saved to Lance Thomas so he rightfully can be weary. And then when given the options on the table he might have said I'd rather be traded, and the spin machine can now say KP didn't want to be a Knick.
Maybe Porzingis was adamant he didn't want to be here, but damn did it seem like the Knicks went into full blown spin control from the second they put out the rumor that KP was requesting a trade yesterday afternoon, to announcing a trade 45 minutes later, all the way through the night of quotes and storyline emerging from all of this. At the end of the day I don't think the haul was really all that bad, dealing Porzingis for essentially 3 first round picks (if they want to deal Smith I am sure they could still get a first for him, Hardaway the first go through netted a first) and 30 mil in additional cap space is way better than these rumored Laker deals for Anthony Davis and may be better than what Boston would give up if they refuse to deal Tatum. I just hate the games that come along with anything this team does.
Basically they said that the Knicks initially thought they had built a good relationship with Porzingis but that they recently had decided that was not true. They felt he was disgruntled and unhappy here and started to work on a trade. Once they had the meeting with him and he said he didn't believe in the Knicks and preferred a trade, they pulled the trigger.
It did seem like a knee jerk reaction yesterday because it happened so damn fast. But alternately, perhaps the Knicks were just ready for this turn of events and decided to not allow the drama to fester and made the trade and were ready to move on from KP.
Perry is dumb enough to do this without some type of knowledge that Durant is very very strong possibility, almost a "he's going to come here" kind of thinking. If they walk away with nothing after this, Mills and Perry go down in the history books as an all time fail for the Knicks organization.
Durant and Irving are pretty much best friends, so maybe that means nothing, maybe it means something, but it just feels like the Knicks know something the rest of us don't.
has actually made me feel better. After 20 years of crap, maybe there is finally a plan (though I doubt KD is coming).
It sucks that in the modern NBA, it seems a team has to tank for multiple seasons before they have any chance of competing for a title. The Knicks have been putting it off too long.
RE: They aren't going to suddenly start winning games
Those two along with DSJ, plus the subtraction of the losing player that is THJ is absolutely capable of winning just enough games to screw this up. Those guys dont make them a playoff contender, but they are capable of winning some games. You can refuse to believe that if you want, just watch it happen.
for as many assets as you can then flip all these picks and potentially DSJ for Anthony Davis (as long as he commits to the Knicks). Get your one superstar this year and sign one in the offseason.
"be a winner" with these guys, but keep in mind that the margin of error is low. Losing just about every game is pretty important.
A heat-check guy like DSJ plus a few expiring role-player guys eager to prove their worth for impending free agency could throw some small but undesirable wrinkles into the lose-a-thon.
Spend the next week trying to trade Jordan/Matthews for even worse players who are also on expiring deals. see if you can get some second round picks, future picks, or other booty for your trouble.
...want to sign with an epic shit franchise like the New York Knicks?
Several people have given their opinion on this in the thread but I guess easier to just ask again so you can insult the franchise??
Simple answer: it's the Knicks (only pro sports team in the city that gets the entire city behind it) and you get to play in the Garden 41+ times a year....the chance to be the savior of that?? Someone, someday will be the savior .and when it happens they will own the city in a way that no player has.
I didn't think the Knicks franchise could dive any lower; that is, until yesterday.
This wild, crazy trade is ENITRELY predicated on NBA Superstar free agents flocking to sign with them.
So, two questions for Knicks fans:
(1) How did that Melo thing turn out besides that one 54-win season?
(2) What if Kevin Durant, Kyrie Irving and/or Kemba Walker decide they will not step into the MSG shit-hole?
but Deandre was one of the few big name free agents the Phil/Mills regime was able to even get a meeting with.
We finally got him! Add him to LONG list of ex-stars/big names to end up here for a short time over the last 20 years: Penny, Jalen Rose, Derrick Rose, Kidd, Bibby, Baron Davis, Antonio Davis, Steve Francis, McGrady, Larry Hughes...
for as many assets as you can then flip all these picks and potentially DSJ for Anthony Davis (as long as he commits to the Knicks). Get your one superstar this year and sign one in the offseason.
Whats the most you can expect for any of these guys in a trade, second rounders? Can they still trade for trade exemptions, or theyd expire at the deadline? Anyway to trade Noahs contract still after buyout, or stuck with it?
one nice thing about this new lottery is if they do go on little streak of wins after getting Matthews/Smith/Jordan it really won't effect their odds of getting Zion much. Yes, the worst case scenario pick will get lower but realistically they have 10 fewer wins than Memphis with 32 games to go; no way are they going to win 10 more games than Memphis over that span. So worst case scenario they fall to 5th worst record and in that scenario their odds of a top 4 pick drop by 10% and their odds of the #1 overall pick fall only 3.5%; so then the new lottery system will actually benefit them as opposed to hurting them like it is doing right now.
I would imagine they're first preference would be KD, Kyrie and Kawhi
what did you propose the Knicks do if Porzingis said he didn't want to be a part of the team? Fuck that...if he wants out, trade him. They cleared out terrible contracts, got space for 2 max, 2 first round picks including 1 unprotected. That's pretty good value for a guy who hasn't accomplished much, was a hurt a good amount while here, and said to the team that he doesn't want to play for them.
Just wondering, if they couldnt get Irving/Durant this year. Would it make sense to use the cap money to absorb other teams contracts for the year in exchange for firsts? Tank one more year, get another top five pick, then use the cap money the following year?
RE: RE: RE: Why would ANY top flight NBA free agent...
...want to sign with an epic shit franchise like the New York Knicks?
Several people have given their opinion on this in the thread but I guess easier to just ask again so you can insult the franchise??
Simple answer: it's the Knicks (only pro sports team in the city that gets the entire city behind it) and you get to play in the Garden 41+ times a year....the chance to be the savior of that?? Someone, someday will be the savior .and when it happens they will own the city in a way that no player has.
I didn't think the Knicks franchise could dive any lower; that is, until yesterday.
This wild, crazy trade is ENITRELY predicated on NBA Superstar free agents flocking to sign with them.
So, two questions for Knicks fans:
(1) How did that Melo thing turn out besides that one 54-win season?
(2) What if Kevin Durant, Kyrie Irving and/or Kemba Walker decide they will not step into the MSG shit-hole?
You should listen to evan roberts explain what you do since his team did the exact thing to turn it around. Stop fucking whining already. If you dont wanna root for the knicks anymore dont. If/when they sign Durant and another guy, dont come running back and being excited.
The overreactions over a guy who barely plays has been hilarious
for as many assets as you can then flip all these picks and potentially DSJ for Anthony Davis (as long as he commits to the Knicks). Get your one superstar this year and sign one in the offseason.
Whats the most you can expect for any of these guys in a trade, second rounders? Can they still trade for trade exemptions, or theyd expire at the deadline? Anyway to trade Noahs contract still after buyout, or stuck with it?
Who cares. Get anything. 2nd round picks are fine. Anything we can do to sweeten the pot for AD. We shouldn't be playing any of them to keep the tank going and you gotta figure a guy averaging 11 and 13 with a PER of 18 has gotta get you something from a potential contender.
one nice thing about this new lottery is if they do go on little streak of wins after getting Matthews/Smith/Jordan it really won't effect their odds of getting Zion much. Yes, the worst case scenario pick will get lower but realistically they have 10 fewer wins than Memphis with 32 games to go; no way are they going to win 10 more games than Memphis over that span. So worst case scenario they fall to 5th worst record and in that scenario their odds of a top 4 pick drop by 10% and their odds of the #1 overall pick fall only 3.5%; so then the new lottery system will actually benefit them as opposed to hurting them like it is doing right now.
Yes to the top 4 picks but it also increases our chances of getting worse picks. The team with the worst record can finish no worse than 5th, second worst 6th, and so on so that worst record is kind of important.
The Knicks are NOT done trading. Many of the contenders have BIG holes to fill before a playoff run.
Because the Knicks were over the cap, they cannot trade Matthews or Jordan together with other players- but they CAN trade them individually and get multiple players/picks back.
For example, the Sixers need wing scoring and a PF. The Knicks could offer Matthews to the Sixers for Chandler and Korkmaz (Chandler for Matthews alone comes up about $750,000 short) and some picks.
Keep in mind that the Sixers "own" the Knicks 2020 and 2021 second round picks. In addition, the Sixers have the Bulls 2019 second rounder. The Knicks could ask for their own picks back, or just aim for the Chicago pick, which will have solid value (that's about where they got Robinson last year).
Another option- Capela is likely out for the majority of the regular season- and may be limited when he returns for Houston. Trading Jordan for Knight and Criss and filler like Gerald Green and picks. Houston is in a dogfight to hols playoff position- they are 6th in the West- with the Jazz, Clippers, Lakers all within 3 games of them- and are only 2 games out of the 4 seed. They have incentive to make a deal.
Houston has all of its 1st rounders going forward. The Knicks already have Houston's 2nd rounder in 2019. Houston probably doesn't mind sending out a 1st since they can safely assume that these aren't difference making picks (at least for Houston). However, the Knicks need to collect assets, so any 1st rounder is valuable.
Along the same lines, the Clippers are in a playoff spot, but are REALLY weak in the paint- and are VERY familiar with Jordan. A trade of Jordan for Gortat, Teodosic and a 2021 1st (the Clips already traded their 2019 1st rounder to Boston) would work as well.
The Lakers are weak in shooting from deep and LeBron is back. Matthews makes sense there in a deal for Rondo and Stephenson (plus a minimum salary filler) and picks. The Lakers have all of their picks except for their 2019 second rounder. Matthews makes sense as an expiring, which won't hinder their FA plans this summer, while still giving them a vet deep threat for the playoffs.
There are other moves that make sense. Kanter is a flawed player who is hard to trade, but Matthews and Jordan may fit the contenders better.
Good post, although we've established here on BBI that Brandon Knight has another year on his deal (ESPN trade machine is wrong).
...want to sign with an epic shit franchise like the New York Knicks?
Several people have given their opinion on this in the thread but I guess easier to just ask again so you can insult the franchise??
Simple answer: it's the Knicks (only pro sports team in the city that gets the entire city behind it) and you get to play in the Garden 41+ times a year....the chance to be the savior of that?? Someone, someday will be the savior .and when it happens they will own the city in a way that no player has.
I didn't think the Knicks franchise could dive any lower; that is, until yesterday.
This wild, crazy trade is ENITRELY predicated on NBA Superstar free agents flocking to sign with them.
So, two questions for Knicks fans:
(1) How did that Melo thing turn out besides that one 54-win season?
(2) What if Kevin Durant, Kyrie Irving and/or Kemba Walker decide they will not step into the MSG shit-hole?
The abject failure that was the Melo era had little to do with Melo himself. For one, they gutted their draft currency for a long time with the deals to move their big contracts and then Melo. More importantly, the key mistake there was picking up Billups' option and then amnestying him once Tyson Chandler became available. They knew the risk that was Amare's knees and of course shortly thereafter he was never the same player again. The amnesty was their get out of jail free card they could've kept in their back pockets but didn't. I know for a fact from a former GM who was active at the time that it was hardly a secret that Chris Paul was going to sign with the Knicks but they didn't have the cap space because of that one really dumb move. Not only could they have paired Melo with Paul but they would've had room for another big contract as well. That's at least a title contender, especially in the NBA back then. On the surface this looks a lot like where we were back then but in reality, it's quite different.
(1) How did that Melo thing turn out besides that one 54-win season?
(2) What if Kevin Durant, Kyrie Irving and/or Kemba Walker decide they will not step into the MSG shit-hole?
1) They had to strip the entire roster just to get melo here. That wouldn't be the case now.
2) If they don't, they still have their draft picks, they still have a top 3 pick this year, and they still have their young players BECAUSE they didn't strip the entire roster to trade for a star just like they did for Melo.
I don't think either guy has totally made up his mind.
Kyrie has already said he would to play for Knicks some day. KD is known to like New York as a city.
In strictly basketball terms, it does not necessarily make sense for either to come here because of the lack of talent. That's why I think Zion is important. Whether they sign those guys could come down to ping pong balls.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Why would ANY top flight NBA free agent...
(1) How did that Melo thing turn out besides that one 54-win season?
(2) What if Kevin Durant, Kyrie Irving and/or Kemba Walker decide they will not step into the MSG shit-hole?
1) They had to strip the entire roster just to get melo here. That wouldn't be the case now.
2) If they don't, they still have their draft picks, they still have a top 3 pick this year, and they still have their young players BECAUSE they didn't strip the entire roster to trade for a star just like they did for Melo.
What do you mean they have a top 3 pick this year? As of right now the best you can say is we have a top 5 pick. If we move up in the standings that 5 will increase.
If I had more faith in this front office and the rep of this team around the league, I'd actually be pretty excited about the blank canvas we now have. I don't have a lot of faith in KP staying healthy, so it's a bit of a relief to not have to commit $150 million to him. I also wonder if a top free agent would have enough faith in KP's health to join him long term. It might be easier to sell the free agent combo package than sell KP as a running mate. Let's face it, KD, Kawhi, Kyrie and Klay are all better players than KP - if we pull off the miracle and actually land two of them, we're in much better shape.
We now have a surplus of draft picks, and abundance of cap space, and a group of young players would can be developed or easily traded if the right deal comes along. Every single avenue to building a contender is available to us.
Now, my gripes...
Do I think this front office can convince two stars to come here? I'd put the chances at about 10 percent.
I have no faith whatsoever in Steve Mills. He's a joke. Alan Hahn was adamant on the Michael Kay Show yesterday that Scott Perry is steering the ship, and I hope he's right.
Even if yesterday's trade was the prudent thing to do, we still come across as dysfunctional. I didn't pay much attention to the Noah stretch provision or Kanter's clown act as evidence that the Knicks were still a mess, but failing to repair the relationship with KP is troubling, though KP and his idiot brother take their share of that blame.
The good news is this summer will bring clarity. If we sign two impact players to go along with our high draft pick, we're on a path to immediate contention. If we strike out on the top guys and resist the urge to splurge on second- and third-tier guys, we're on a slower path to contention through the draft, but still acceptable. If we overpay guys like Tobias Harris or Kemba Walker, we know we're staying in no man's land probably for the rest of our lives, or Jim Dolan's life.
But with some coaching I see Trier having a career equal to Knox. I think he could be our John Starks of the past. He is much more of an asset then given credit for.
RE: It gives KD and Kyrie something to think about
Kyrie has already said he would to play for Knicks some day. KD is known to like New York as a city.
Everyone says things like that. Virtually no one actually means it when they have to face the fact that playing for the Knicks meaning playing for their clown show organization.
In any case, I would like to offer a counterpoint: The trade was good. It was the right decision. It could backfire spectacularly, yes, but that's fine. The Knicks now have a chance to build an honest-to-god title contender this summer. That matters. Keeping Porzingis and playing things "smart" would have been a great way to impress NBA Twitter and then win 43 games next year. Purely from a process standpoint, this was the better play.
The first way you can tell this trade was the right decision? The Boston Celtics and all their fans almost certainly hated it. Ditto for the Golden State Warriors. The Knicks began Thursday without enough cap space to sign Kevin Durant, and by Thursday afternoon they had $74.6 million to spend this summerenough space to sign both Durant and an additional superstar on a max contract. They also have Kevin Knox, Frank Ntilikina, Dennis Smith, Jr., and seven firstround picks over the next five yearsthose are trade assets for a third star.
So what happens if Dallas has a top 10 pick that year? They get to keep it and the Knicks get nothing?
Then they either get one of the following two years' Dallas first round picks top 10 protected. If they haven't gotten one of those picks by 2025, it turns into a second rounder in 2025.
So what happens if Dallas has a top 10 pick that year? They get to keep it and the Knicks get nothing?
Then they either get one of the following two years' Dallas first round picks top 10 protected. If they haven't gotten one of those picks by 2025, it turns into a second rounder in 2025.
I'm much more curious what happens to the 2021 unprotected pick if the Mavs keep their 2019 pick instead of having to trade to Atlanta...
Kyrie has already said he would to play for Knicks some day. KD is known to like New York as a city.
Everyone says things like that. Virtually no one actually means it when they have to face the fact that playing for the Knicks meaning playing for their clown show organization.
I think the clown show is genuine but affects Knicks fans more than NBA players.
Potential free agents are going to look at the current team not the past 20 years of bungling moves.
The biggest negative imo is that veteran players tend not to put much stock in young guys like Knox, who could be good someday but is clearly not yet an NBA starting player. And, really, young undeveloped players are all the Knicks have to offer.
So what happens if Dallas has a top 10 pick that year? They get to keep it and the Knicks get nothing?
Then they either get one of the following two years' Dallas first round picks top 10 protected. If they haven't gotten one of those picks by 2025, it turns into a second rounder in 2025.
I'm much more curious what happens to the 2021 unprotected pick if the Mavs keep their 2019 pick instead of having to trade to Atlanta...
The Mavs pick is only top 5 protected. The Mavs could tank the rest of the way and not get a top 5 pick- unless the magic ping pong ball event occurs.
There are 7 teams in the Eastern Conference alone that have a worse record than Dallas- let alone the Grizz and Suns out West who are significantly worse than Dallas.
Morant's level of competition makes it difficult to judge
If Porzingis wants to complain all the time and has a brother in his ear who appears to be clueless, well maybe a trade was not the worst thing in the world. Needing an explanation about the direction of the franchise is either him using an excuse to get out, or he's just plain stupid. Because what does he not understand? They're tanking for a high pick, trying to shed salary to be players in free agency, and holding him back this season because there's no point in playing him. What about that did he not understand and need explained?
And if the story is true about his brother dictating who they can or cannot sign then I don't see any point in keeping someone like that. KP was exciting and promising, but he wasn't Lebron James to walk around making demands either. So I hope that story is false and just Knicks spin, because it's actually unbelievable that him and his brother would have the balls to act like that. The guy has never even played a full season.
As I mentioned, IF (big time if though) the Knicks wind up with a top 3 pick, and do in fact land 2 star free agents this summer this could wind up being one of the better and franchise changing trades they will ever make. But that is a big if and the odds are against it.
2019: Top-4 overall pick + 2nd rd via ORL, CLE or HOU
2020: NYK 1st + CHA 2nd
2021: NYK 1st + DAL 1st (unprotected) + CHA 2nd
2022: NYK 1st + NYK 2nd
2023: NYK 1st + DAL 1st (protected 1-10) + NYK 2nd
We don't have a top 4 pick right now. We have a top 5 pick currently.
Something else to consider- right now the NBA is debating eliminating the "one and done" rule for college players.
Dallas has exactly TWO picks between now and the 2021 1st rounder- both of them 2020 second rounders- one theirs, and one is either GS or Houston's. Short of bringing in some big time FA in 2020 (hard to do with so many contracts covering 2019 and 2020), they will be BAD in 2020. That could be a top 10 pick or better.
So what happens if Dallas has a top 10 pick that year? They get to keep it and the Knicks get nothing?
Then they either get one of the following two years' Dallas first round picks top 10 protected. If they haven't gotten one of those picks by 2025, it turns into a second rounder in 2025.
I'm much more curious what happens to the 2021 unprotected pick if the Mavs keep their 2019 pick instead of having to trade to Atlanta...
The Mavs pick is only top 5 protected. The Mavs could tank the rest of the way and not get a top 5 pick- unless the magic ping pong ball event occurs.
There are 7 teams in the Eastern Conference alone that have a worse record than Dallas- let alone the Grizz and Suns out West who are significantly worse than Dallas.
The Mavs pick is no longer protected for this upcoming year.
2019: Top-4 overall pick + 2nd rd via ORL, CLE or HOU
2020: NYK 1st + CHA 2nd
2021: NYK 1st + DAL 1st (unprotected) + CHA 2nd
2022: NYK 1st + NYK 2nd
2023: NYK 1st + DAL 1st (protected 1-10) + NYK 2nd
We don't have a top 4 pick right now. We have a top 5 pick currently.
Something else to consider- right now the NBA is debating eliminating the "one and done" rule for college players.
Dallas has exactly TWO picks between now and the 2021 1st rounder- both of them 2020 second rounders- one theirs, and one is either GS or Houston's. Short of bringing in some big time FA in 2020 (hard to do with so many contracts covering 2019 and 2020), they will be BAD in 2020. That could be a top 10 pick or better.
Personal feelings about the Knicks aside, I think they should eliminate the one and done rule.
We should. He may be an attention whore and a black hole on defense, but he's adept in the paint and a very good rebounder. He's good for a double-double every night. That should count for something.
Hypothetically speaking, if we land Kyrie, but not KD or Kawhi
I suspect that if they could have they already would have. Are there teams can take that cap hit without giving back players who don't have expiring contracts?
RE: Hypothetically speaking, if we land Kyrie, but not KD or Kawhi
I would think that the Knicks would then trade DSJ and our first rounder in a package for AD.
I'm not trading this year's 1st rounder for anything if i'm the Knicks. Try to land AD with the Mavs 1st rounders and our futures and maybe DSJ or Knox. Add Kyrie or Durant in the offseason and work around that.
a little more detail on the Dallas #1's the Knicks have now...
"2021 first round draft pick to New York
Two years after Dallas conveys a 1st round pick to Atlanta, Dallas' 1st round pick to New York (conveying unprotected in 2021, 2022, 2023, 2024 or 2025) [Dallas-New York, 1/31/2019]
2023 first round draft pick to New York
At least four years after Dallas conveys a 1st round pick to Atlanta, Dallas' 1st round pick to New York protected for selections 1-10 in 2023, 1-10 in 2024 and 1-10 in 2025; if Dallas has not conveyed this 1st round pick to New York (the second of two possible) by 2025, then Dallas will instead convey its 2025 2nd round pick to New York [Dallas-New York, 1/31/2019]"
so according to this, Knicks may not get Mavs' #1 in 2021 if Atlanta doesn't get a #1 from Dallas until next year...
"2021 first round draft pick to New York
Two years after Dallas conveys a 1st round pick to Atlanta, Dallas' 1st round pick to New York (conveying unprotected in 2021, 2022, 2023, 2024 or 2025) [Dallas-New York, 1/31/2019]
2023 first round draft pick to New York
At least four years after Dallas conveys a 1st round pick to Atlanta, Dallas' 1st round pick to New York protected for selections 1-10 in 2023, 1-10 in 2024 and 1-10 in 2025; if Dallas has not conveyed this 1st round pick to New York (the second of two possible) by 2025, then Dallas will instead convey its 2025 2nd round pick to New York [Dallas-New York, 1/31/2019]"
so according to this, Knicks may not get Mavs' #1 in 2021 if Atlanta doesn't get a #1 from Dallas until next year...
"2021 first round draft pick to New York
Two years after Dallas conveys a 1st round pick to Atlanta, Dallas' 1st round pick to New York (conveying unprotected in 2021, 2022, 2023, 2024 or 2025) [Dallas-New York, 1/31/2019]
2023 first round draft pick to New York
At least four years after Dallas conveys a 1st round pick to Atlanta, Dallas' 1st round pick to New York protected for selections 1-10 in 2023, 1-10 in 2024 and 1-10 in 2025; if Dallas has not conveyed this 1st round pick to New York (the second of two possible) by 2025, then Dallas will instead convey its 2025 2nd round pick to New York [Dallas-New York, 1/31/2019]"
so according to this, Knicks may not get Mavs' #1 in 2021 if Atlanta doesn't get a #1 from Dallas until next year...
What determines when Atlanta gets Dallas's pick?
The link I posted said the Mavs waived their protection in this year's pick.
This, by default, means that the Mavs will send the Hawks their 2019 first-round pick unconditionally, having removed their top five protections.
That looks like Nahmad using logic that takes the Woj/Begley wording as fact.
Other wording of the deal says that the Knicks get the first available Dallas 1st rounder after Hawks get it... Nahmad's logic wouldn't apply to that wording..
The Knicks have heard from at least one team interested in trading for veteran Wes Matthews, league sources told ESPN. If the Knicks dont trade Matthews, hed be a candidate for a buyout. His contract expires after this season.
Anthony Davis is focused on the Lakers as his top preferred destination, sources tell @TheAthleticNBA @WatchStadium. The Knicks are also as a preferred landing spot, and made push to New Orleans with offer around Kristaps Porzingis before the Dallas deal.
(1) How did that Melo thing turn out besides that one 54-win season?
(2) What if Kevin Durant, Kyrie Irving and/or Kemba Walker decide they will not step into the MSG shit-hole?
1) They had to strip the entire roster just to get melo here. That wouldn't be the case now.
2) If they don't, they still have their draft picks, they still have a top 3 pick this year, and they still have their young players BECAUSE they didn't strip the entire roster to trade for a star just like they did for Melo.
What do you mean they have a top 3 pick this year? As of right now the best you can say is we have a top 5 pick. If we move up in the standings that 5 will increase.
Fine, top 5 pick if you want to assume the worst case.
It doesn't change to scope of the argument. This isnt 2010, they're starting from a much higher place than that, when they overpaid to get Melo and had no ability to put a team around him. They have all their picks, are coming off a good draft with some solid looking young players that have a future, and they have the ability to tell their #1 target you can get anyone in the league to come with you.
Another interesting angle is from the Mavs perspective
If you're a Mavs fan, your team just traded a top 10 pick in DSJ, an unprotected 1st, another 1st round pick in 2023, two expiring players with trade value in Wes & Jordan for
-overpaid Courtney Lee(1 more year at $12 Mil)
-overpaid & zero defense chucker Tim Hardaway Jr.(1 more year at $18 Mil PLUS a player option for another year at $18 Mil!)
-injury prone KP who hasn't played in like a year coming off a torn ACL who also has a knucklehead of a brother-agent
If you're a Mavs fan, you're hoping against hope that KP not only comes back 100% healthy, but manages to stay healthy going forward at his height and turns into Dirk 2.0. It's a huge swing for the fences for Dallas as well. I just don't think it's very likely to pan out.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Why would ANY top flight NBA free agent...
(1) How did that Melo thing turn out besides that one 54-win season?
(2) What if Kevin Durant, Kyrie Irving and/or Kemba Walker decide they will not step into the MSG shit-hole?
1) They had to strip the entire roster just to get melo here. That wouldn't be the case now.
2) If they don't, they still have their draft picks, they still have a top 3 pick this year, and they still have their young players BECAUSE they didn't strip the entire roster to trade for a star just like they did for Melo.
What do you mean they have a top 3 pick this year? As of right now the best you can say is we have a top 5 pick. If we move up in the standings that 5 will increase.
Fine, top 5 pick if you want to assume the worst case.
It doesn't change to scope of the argument. This isnt 2010, they're starting from a much higher place than that, when they overpaid to get Melo and had no ability to put a team around him. They have all their picks, are coming off a good draft with some solid looking young players that have a future, and they have the ability to tell their #1 target you can get anyone in the league to come with you.
I agree with your post. I am just correcting the top 3 part. There is a 52% chance we get the 5th pick. That is more likely then getting the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th pick combined.
If you're a Mavs fan, you're hoping against hope that KP not only comes back 100% healthy, but manages to stay healthy going forward at his height and turns into Dirk 2.0. It's a huge swing for the fences for Dallas as well. I just don't think it's very likely to pan out.
Yes, this is as much a gamble for the Mavs as it is for the Knicks - maybe more so. If the Knicks were the ones giving up first round picks and taking on bad salaries for a talented player with major health risks, we'd be extremely concerned about it. In fact the Knicks have done it before and gotten burned with McDyess. Amare, too - I know he was a FA signing, but we had to give up first rounders in prior trades to clear space to sign him.
The Knicks have heard from at least one team interested in trading for veteran Wes Matthews, league sources told ESPN. If the Knicks dont trade Matthews, hed be a candidate for a buyout. His contract expires after this season.
Give me all of your 2nd round picks!!!!!!!!!!!!
Matthews might be a good guy to have around if they expect
Wording seems odd to me. Knicks get Dallas next available first round pick. I get that it could mean two years after they trade their pick to Atl. But since the traded pick is top 5 protected, it could be 2022 when Knicks get the Mavs pick in that case.
So I can see why Knicks would say, no I protect this years pick so we guarantee get that pick in 2021. But how does that help the Knicks, only guarantees them a year, but helps Atl since it unlocks the top five protection. Dallas wouldnt want to unprotected it, unless it makes or breaks the Knicks trade. Again, why would it make or break the Knicks trade for the Knicks to guarantee the year?
So, connecting th dots, I dont expect it, but wouldnt be shocked if it comes out the KNICKS got the unprotected pick this year if its top 5, Atl gets it if its not top five. Knicks get the 2021 pick if Atl gets this years, Atl gets 2021 pick UNPRTECTED if Knicks get this years pick.
RE: Matthews might be a good guy to have around if they expect
This online, the draft picks acquired actually gives the knicks a unique ability to try and trade for AD in the offseason that basically blows away all offers the Celtics could make. Basically they will need to match enough salary to trade for Davis so they need at least 24 mil in a deal. The only way to get that much since they have so little cap committed would be they would need to include every player they have under contract. So a deal for AD would look like Knox, Robinson, Smith Jr, Trier and Frank and they would have the unique ability to trade 4 years in a row of first round picks. Basically can trade 2020 straight thru 2013 since the picks they acquired are in alternating years they would still have a 1st every other year. So basically the Pelicans can get 3 recent lottery selections and 4 draft picks as well as 4 first round picks while the Knicks still end up with Davis Durant Kyrie and their top pick this year.
This online, the draft picks acquired actually gives the knicks a unique ability to try and trade for AD in the offseason that basically blows away all offers the Celtics could make. Basically they will need to match enough salary to trade for Davis so they need at least 24 mil in a deal. The only way to get that much since they have so little cap committed would be they would need to include every player they have under contract. So a deal for AD would look like Knox, Robinson, Smith Jr, Trier and Frank and they would have the unique ability to trade 4 years in a row of first round picks. Basically can trade 2020 straight thru 2013 since the picks they acquired are in alternating years they would still have a 1st every other year. So basically the Pelicans can get 3 recent lottery selections and 4 draft picks as well as 4 first round picks while the Knicks still end up with Davis Durant Kyrie and their top pick this year.
Wont need to make salaries match but the picks in straight years Id definitely true. I am in the camp of thinking outside of Tatum, Bostons war chest is vastly overrated. The Memphis pick wont be their til likely 2021 and the clippers and Sac picks will be in the teens in a poor draft this year.
RE: Matthews might be a good guy to have around if they expect
Wont need to make salaries match but the picks in straight years Id definitely true. I am in the camp of thinking outside of Tatum, Bostons war chest is vastly overrated. The Memphis pick wont be their til likely 2021 and the clippers and Sac picks will be in the teens in a poor draft this year.
But if we trade for AD first then can we sign 2 max guys? I don't think so.
RE: RE: Matthews might be a good guy to have around if they expect
This online, the draft picks acquired actually gives the knicks a unique ability to try and trade for AD in the offseason that basically blows away all offers the Celtics could make. Basically they will need to match enough salary to trade for Davis so they need at least 24 mil in a deal. The only way to get that much since they have so little cap committed would be they would need to include every player they have under contract. So a deal for AD would look like Knox, Robinson, Smith Jr, Trier and Frank and they would have the unique ability to trade 4 years in a row of first round picks. Basically can trade 2020 straight thru 2013 since the picks they acquired are in alternating years they would still have a 1st every other year. So basically the Pelicans can get 3 recent lottery selections and 4 draft picks as well as 4 first round picks while the Knicks still end up with Davis Durant Kyrie and their top pick this year.
Salaries don't have to match because the Knicks are under the cap. We would have enough cap space to trade him just for picks alone, if we wanted to and that's what NOP wanted.
This online, the draft picks acquired actually gives the knicks a unique ability to try and trade for AD in the offseason that basically blows away all offers the Celtics could make. Basically they will need to match enough salary to trade for Davis so they need at least 24 mil in a deal. The only way to get that much since they have so little cap committed would be they would need to include every player they have under contract. So a deal for AD would look like Knox, Robinson, Smith Jr, Trier and Frank and they would have the unique ability to trade 4 years in a row of first round picks. Basically can trade 2020 straight thru 2013 since the picks they acquired are in alternating years they would still have a 1st every other year. So basically the Pelicans can get 3 recent lottery selections and 4 draft picks as well as 4 first round picks while the Knicks still end up with Davis Durant Kyrie and their top pick this year.
Yeah I read a few people on reddit today who are considered some of the go to posters for the NBA cap over at /r/nba and they basically echoed this. They seem to think this is a comprehensive plan by the Knicks in trying to set themselves up for getting Durant, Kyrie, and AD and that it is entirely possible this can be accomplished. They don't think this was kneejerk at all and might be looked back upon as genius if everythign falls into place. We'll see I guess.
RE: RE: Knicks will be under the cap in the summer
Wont need to make salaries match but the picks in straight years Id definitely true. I am in the camp of thinking outside of Tatum, Bostons war chest is vastly overrated. The Memphis pick wont be their til likely 2021 and the clippers and Sac picks will be in the teens in a poor draft this year.
But if we trade for AD first then can we sign 2 max guys? I don't think so.
I believe since you are trading New Orleans back close to equivalent salary we still would have enough cap for 2 more maxes. Its a pretty thrilling scenario actually. if some of the rumors are true the Knicks wouldnt have done this unless they (perhaps through back channels) were pretty confident they are getting 2 of the 3 of KD, Kyrie, or Kawhi.
If they were to somehow pull of a couple big ticket FAs AND AD for a bunch of their extra picks and young guys in Frank, Knox etc....this team might be finally interesting again!
Will be a little 'cheaper' max cat to apply against the cap at basically 27mill next year. If we trade back a little more than 27 million to them (I believe if my cap knowledge is right we can go up to 20% more)
Say:
Thomas 7.5
Frank 4.9
Smith 4.5
Knox 4.4
Mudiay QO is 5.7 (don't know if you need to include him or not)
Keep Trier, Dotson and Robinson because they are 3mill and under.
It may be able to work while signing KD and Kyrie (or Kawhi) and piecing together the rest of the roster with guys who'll come cheap.
Kemba was an outstanding lottery pick. Walker has had an exceptional career, and he is one of the best clutch players in the NBA. Kemba is the only player who can score on the Hornets. The rest of the Hornets are abysmal shooters.
will get a max deal... and would be a terrible outcome for the Knicks sans KD or Kawhi joining him. Really awful outcome. He's 29 in May, no guarantee to be a draw for a 2nd star and never going to be the best player on a legit contender. It's my biggest fear.
If Kemba is the best player on your team, you're not winning anything
complete schmuck, made a Really good point yesterday. Since KP didnt want to be here the chances the Knicks would have filled their 1 max slot were zero. No one would come here knowing he wanted out. Now, they have 2 max slots, no bad contracts to speak of, a bunch of high draft picks and some good young pieces to support the 2 stars. Not a bad position to build from and they didnt have a strong poker hand.
complete schmuck, made a Really good point yesterday. Since KP didnt want to be here the chances the Knicks would have filled their 1 max slot were zero. No one would come here knowing he wanted out. Now, they have 2 max slots, no bad contracts to speak of, a bunch of high draft picks and some good young pieces to support the 2 stars. Not a bad position to build from and they didnt have a strong poker hand.
Seems like a "bunch of high draft picks" is double dipping if you're including guys like Knox and Frank. They have their pick this year for sure, but the 2021 Mavs pick is no guarantee to be a high pick and quite frankly Frank has limited value. We know the Knicks have a high pick this season and their own pick in 2020, + 2 picks in 2021, no guarantee any pick other than this one is "high"
Next year? I think lance, Dennis Smith, Frank 2019 pick and 2 Dallas picks is enough to get AD and still fit KD, Kyrie, keeping Knox, trier, Robinson and Dotson. Can they not pick up triers option and then go over the cap to resign him?
Isnt that offer better than Boston offer if 2019 pick is a top 3 pick. If they have to swap Knox for frank then thats fine as wel.
Pelton believes they'd have to sign Kyrie/KD first then trade for KD:
Could the Knicks trade for Anthony Davis too?
Hypothetically, yes. New York's path to three superstar players would require signing Durant and Irving first to exhaust the team's cap space, then trading just about everything else to the New Orleans Pelicans to match Davis' $27.1 million salary. The Knicks would have to send back $21.6 million in salary, and as noted earlier that's more than all their currently guaranteed 2019-20 contracts combined.
Realistically, this year's pick would have to be part of any Davis trade, and New York could use the same strategy as the Cleveland Cavaliers did with Andrew Wiggins in 2014 by signing the pick first and subsequently trading him 30 days later when his salary counts for matching purposes.
If the Knicks got the No. 5 pick (which carries a projected starting salary of $6.3 million), a package of the pick, Dotson, Knox, Ntilikina and Smith would just barely be enough to make a legal trade. It's possible an offer like that -- which might also include the future picks New York acquired in the Porzingis deal -- could interest the Pelicans if they don't want to trade Davis to the conference rival L.A. Lakers and the Celtics no longer bid as aggressively because of Irving's departure.
We probably need a cap expert to figure this out but
I'll throw out some rough estimates to see if this could work:
The cap is set at 109 mill for next year.
Let's say you sign Kyrie and KD for an average of 32mil between them. And then you trade Knox,Frank,Thomas and possibly Mudiay with a QO along with 2 first round picks to make it work. AD is locked in at 27 mill for the 19-20 season.
Durant 32
Irving 32
AD 27
Trier 3.5
Robinson 1.6
Dotson 1.6
East to complain about not pulling the trigger on a Suns deal pre-2017 but quite a few "landmine" picks in that draft. Obviously if you nail those picks the Knicks are sitting pretty today. #Knicks
RE: Dotson's salary isn't guaranteed. Also you can go over the cap
East to complain about not pulling the trigger on a Suns deal pre-2017 but quite a few "landmine" picks in that draft. Obviously if you nail those picks the Knicks are sitting pretty today. #Knicks
I'll preface this with he didn't answer any hypotheticals, or really respond directly to any of the KP related questions.
-Team had concerns about KP not buying into rebuilding process for a while.
-Meeting yesterday confirmed those fears. KP's team expressed desire to move on from Knicks.
-Had been doing due diligence for past couple months on exploring trade options for KP based on change in KP's general attitude as of late.
-Perry directly observed a change in KP's attitude and participation around the team recently
-Even with cap space, Perry says more focused on building with that they have now + this years draft pick, says they're not desperate to put all their eggs in one basket and spend all cap money on players this FA.
Could the Knicks trade for Anthony Davis too?
Hypothetically, yes. New York's path to three superstar players would require signing Durant and Irving first to exhaust the team's cap space, then trading just about everything else to the New Orleans Pelicans to match Davis' $27.1 million salary. The Knicks would have to send back $21.6 million in salary, and as noted earlier that's more than all their currently guaranteed 2019-20 contracts combined.
Realistically, this year's pick would have to be part of any Davis trade, and New York could use the same strategy as the Cleveland Cavaliers did with Andrew Wiggins in 2014 by signing the pick first and subsequently trading him 30 days later when his salary counts for matching purposes.
If the Knicks got the No. 5 pick (which carries a projected starting salary of $6.3 million), a package of the pick, Dotson, Knox, Ntilikina and Smith would just barely be enough to make a legal trade. It's possible an offer like that -- which might also include the future picks New York acquired in the Porzingis deal -- could interest the Pelicans if they don't want to trade Davis to the conference rival L.A. Lakers and the Celtics no longer bid as aggressively because of Irving's departure.
So let's say Knicks wind up with Barrett.
The trade would be Barrett, Knox, DSJr, Robinson, Frank and 4 number one picks for AD. No one is coming close to matching that. It would be a great trade for both teams.
Made a good move here, they know who is coming and they also got two first round draft picks. Why the love for Porzingis, who the fuck was he? people here are so fucked up they don't even recognize good news, holy shit, unreal. This coach will get Durant and Irving, when that happens, then tell me that fucking skinny ginger bread man in anything like the two coming here. It's going to happen, so cut all the bullshit already.
I would like to get AD but I think that is a severe overpay. The Pelicans have leverage but you dont need to give away every player on the team and four number 1s.
RE: RE: Pelton believes they'd have to sign Kyrie/KD first then trade for KD:
Could the Knicks trade for Anthony Davis too?
Hypothetically, yes. New York's path to three superstar players would require signing Durant and Irving first to exhaust the team's cap space, then trading just about everything else to the New Orleans Pelicans to match Davis' $27.1 million salary. The Knicks would have to send back $21.6 million in salary, and as noted earlier that's more than all their currently guaranteed 2019-20 contracts combined.
Realistically, this year's pick would have to be part of any Davis trade, and New York could use the same strategy as the Cleveland Cavaliers did with Andrew Wiggins in 2014 by signing the pick first and subsequently trading him 30 days later when his salary counts for matching purposes.
If the Knicks got the No. 5 pick (which carries a projected starting salary of $6.3 million), a package of the pick, Dotson, Knox, Ntilikina and Smith would just barely be enough to make a legal trade. It's possible an offer like that -- which might also include the future picks New York acquired in the Porzingis deal -- could interest the Pelicans if they don't want to trade Davis to the conference rival L.A. Lakers and the Celtics no longer bid as aggressively because of Irving's departure.
So let's say Knicks wind up with Barrett.
The trade would be Barrett, Knox, DSJr, Robinson, Frank and 4 number one picks for AD. No one is coming close to matching that. It would be a great trade for both teams.
you'd have to fill out the rest of the roster with minimum players. Like EVERY single spot on the roster. Doesn't seem realistic.
RE: RE: Pelton believes they'd have to sign Kyrie/KD first then trade for KD:
Could the Knicks trade for Anthony Davis too?
Hypothetically, yes. New York's path to three superstar players would require signing Durant and Irving first to exhaust the team's cap space, then trading just about everything else to the New Orleans Pelicans to match Davis' $27.1 million salary. The Knicks would have to send back $21.6 million in salary, and as noted earlier that's more than all their currently guaranteed 2019-20 contracts combined.
Realistically, this year's pick would have to be part of any Davis trade, and New York could use the same strategy as the Cleveland Cavaliers did with Andrew Wiggins in 2014 by signing the pick first and subsequently trading him 30 days later when his salary counts for matching purposes.
If the Knicks got the No. 5 pick (which carries a projected starting salary of $6.3 million), a package of the pick, Dotson, Knox, Ntilikina and Smith would just barely be enough to make a legal trade. It's possible an offer like that -- which might also include the future picks New York acquired in the Porzingis deal -- could interest the Pelicans if they don't want to trade Davis to the conference rival L.A. Lakers and the Celtics no longer bid as aggressively because of Irving's departure.
So let's say Knicks wind up with Barrett.
The trade would be Barrett, Knox, DSJr, Robinson, Frank and 4 number one picks for AD. No one is coming close to matching that. It would be a great trade for both teams.
If they can sign to max guys and not give up any of their young assets or picks they would be putting themselves in a strong position for years to come.
It really now all comes down to whether Perry can pull of enticing to legit max guys to sign and also hope they hit it right in this years draft.
Is it possible? Yes but will take some creativity.
Quick answer, it depends.....It is not possible if they acquire AD first prior to signing KD and Kyrie... This is because KD's max is going to be 35% of the cap since he's a 10 year veteran. If we sign 2 max guys with less than 10 years of experience, it is possible to acquire AD right now and have 2 max contracts left in the summer. No matter what, acquiring AD helps with this conversation because he only makes 27 million. Kawhi, Kyrie, Kemba, Butler, Klay are all set to make 30% of the cap. KD is going to make 35% of the cap.
With that said, there are scenarios that are plausable in which the Knicks could afford 3 of these guys. This is because one nice part of having only good contracts left on the cap are that they're all movable, if necessary. The only cap hit not movable is Noah. So, to start, take the projected salary cap number of $109M, subtract the salary committed to Noah's buyout $6,431,667 and LFT's guarantee of $1,000,000.
Step 1) Assumption: 109M Cap
Step 2) Toal Possible Space before Cap Holds = (109M LESS Noah and LFT) = 101,568,333
Step 3) 9 Cap Holds (Est. $838,464/ea) = 7,546,176
Step 4) Total Space for 3 players = 94,022,157
Step 5)
AD Salary 2019 = 27,093,019
Kyrie Salary 2019 = 32,700,00
KD Salary 2019 = 38,150,000
TOTAL SALARY CAP NEEDED TO ACQUIRE ALL 3 = 97,943,019
THEREFORE....
Scenario 1) If they acquire AD first via trade NOW, it would all comes down to if Kyrie and/or Durant want to give up any money. AD is under contract so he can not give up money even if he wants to.
Scenario 2) If they sign Kyrie and KD outright for $70,850,000 first (or any other 2 max cats), they could then retain the following roster:
1) Kyrie & KD + Noahs Cap Hold + LFT guaranteed = 77,281,667
-PLUS-
3) Knox = 4,380,120
4) Smith Jr = 4,463,640
5) Robinson = 1,559,120
6) Ntilikina = 4,855,800
7) Dotson = 1,618,520
8) Trier = 3,551,100
9) 2019 Number 1 Pick (Highest Salary Scenario) - ($6,804,300)
10) 2nd Rnd Pick = Rookie Minimum (838,464)
11) Min Cap Hold = 838,464
12) Min Cap Hold = 838,464
Total Salary Committed = 108,029,659
We could then use any combination of our roster and future picks to trade for stars... even if it means going over the cap. The salaries that we receive must be within 125% + 100,000 of the outgoing salaries. Therefore, if we can retain any of these guys off their current deals for short-term deals and/or good value deals, it would help to meet future salaries via trade. In other words, we would have to exchange $21,594,416 in salaries to acquire AD.
1) Durants 35% salary max makes matters a little more difficult. Opting to sign Kawhi or two guys with less than 10 years of experience would ease financial matters considerably and allow us to retain more of our current young core without HAVING to include them just to match salaries.
2) With that said, even if we are fortunate enough to sign Durant, we could then make a trade for AD happen and retain 1 of the following: DSJ, Knox or 2019 1st round pick. We would also be able to retain Robinson or Dotson.
3) I expect LFT to be included in a deal before the deadline to get his $1,000,000 guarantee off the books.
An example of a roster with 3 max guys would look as follows:
C: Robinson
PF: AD
SF: Durant
SG: Minimum/Dotson
PG: Kyrie
6: Knox, DSJ or 2019 1st Rnd Pick
7) Minimum
8) Minimum
9) Minimum
Alternatively, I could see the Knicks try the following:
C: Robinson
PF: AD
SF: Knox
SG: Klay
PG: Kyrie
6: Dotson or Trier
7: Minimum
8: Minimum
9: Minumum
Would come back to be costly. That extra $6 mil is huge right now and noahs Expiring as we all said could have been use in a deal especially for AD. I think if knicks want AD they have to go all in now so they can use Wes Matthews or deandre to get the salaries where they need to be. Then hope that KD and Kyrie will take a little less for one year. The cap goes up to 118 in 2019 so wouldnt they be better off signing 1 + 1 deals anyway for a little less then signing max deals with higher cap? Also when AD opts our after next year do knicks free up more cap space so they can sign someone else and then go over the cap to sign AD or would he have a huge cap hold even with the opt out?
I think you offer pelicans the following right now:
Dennis Smith JR
Knox
2019 pick and 2 Dallas picks
Wes Matthews
I think that is better than any offer Boston or lakers can make. Even if Boston offers Tatum. You get an extra year of Knox and you are getting s top 3 pick.
In this scenario knicks essentially trades Porzingis Knox and pick for A Davis.
Knicks should be stock piling picks but trading Vonleh, Mudiay and Mario now.
If Kyrie and KD wont take less for one year then at least you can trade frank and trier in the offseason for picks. I think Robinson has to be kept at all costs. You sign all vet min guys and eventually move them with picks to improve the roster through the season. It will be tight for 2019-2020, but the $9 mil increase in 2020 will help and then you get mid level and mini mid level. Plus 2021 Noah stretch is gone.
May not be perfectly calculated but it could be ball park of what is doable...
I do think that Perry does see that there are two options this summer: 1. Get 3 max free agents, or 2. Use cap space to acquire more draft capital. Before doing that, our focus until the this year's trading deadline should be on getting as much value as possible on the players with only one year left on their contracts.
Option 2 would mean taking on one to 2 year deals for unprotected draft picks. This would look similar to what the 76ers have done.
Option 1 is preferred and seemingly possible, if not somewhat realistic. This is a mock scenario of option one and how to fill out the roster after we are capped out.
Max free agent route:
1. Renounce all right to free agents
2. Sign one of Kevin Durant, Kawhi Leonard, or Jimmy Butler
3. Sign one of Kyrie Irving or Kemba Walker
4. Resign Wesley Matthews to 2 year, room MLE; Luke Kornet 1 year, minimum.
5. Sign Patrick Beverly, Jerian Grant, David Nwaba, CJ Miles, Thabo Sefolosha, Jeff Green, Luc Rich Mbah A Moute, Kyle O'Quinn all to 1 year minimum deals.
6. Draft 1st round pick player, sign them (after 30 days you can trade a signed draft pick), 2nd round pick sign to 2 way contract.
7. Trade Dennis Smith Jr., Frank Ntilikina, Kevin Knox, Damyeon Dotson, Lance Thomas, 2019 1st round pick, 2020 unprotected 1st round pick to Pelicans for Anthony Davis.
Roster:
PG: Kyrie Irving - Patrick Beverley - Jerian Grant - Kadeem Allen (2way)
SG: Wesley Matthews - Alonzo Trier - David Nwaba
SF: Kevin Durant - C.J. Miles - Thabo Sefolosha
PF: Anthony Davis - Jeff Green - Luc Rich Mbah a Moute - 2nd round pick (2way)
C: Mitchell Robinson - Kyle O'Quinn - Luke Kornet
Team can compete for a championship. By the trade deadline, we can package some 1 year deals and a draft pick for expiring rookie players (ex. Luc Rich Mbah a Moute, Thabo Sefolosha, 2 2nd round picks, and cash for Taurean Prince). This allows us to resign the players to larger contracts in free agency since we would have their bird rights. By 2020 we could have a deep team, with in their prime role players. I really hope that the Knicks can get it done.
Other options/questions:
1.Could we resign either or both Matthews and Jordan with going over the cap? Robinson and Jordan would be a formidable duo at C.
2. Can we actually trade off Noahs stretch money owed? Link - ( New Window )
Made a good move here, they know who is coming and they also got two first round draft picks. Why the love for Porzingis, who the fuck was he? people here are so fucked up they don't even recognize good news, holy shit, unreal. This coach will get Durant and Irving, when that happens, then tell me that fucking skinny ginger bread man in anything like the two coming here. It's going to happen, so cut all the bullshit already.
Kyrie and Durant first, the Knicks can go above the salary cap to add a third star via trade (as long as the trade itself meets the cba salary matching rules).
If they could pull that off it gives them more ability to sign / keep players to fill out the roster.
I would like to get AD but I think that is a severe overpay. The Pelicans have leverage but you dont need to give away every player on the team and four number 1s.
I agree. I was just trying to show that the Knicks can put together the best package for AD by a wide margin.
The young players all have to be part of the deal to clear space for ADs contract
So, it really comes down to how many first rounders Knicks include.
But make no mistake, KD, Kylie AD is the ultimate goal. They just need contingencies plans because they cant control whether those guys want to come to NY.
But what I like is Perry is giving the team a chance to build s team that could win multiple championships. Yet, he has a good alternate plan unlike Donnie who put all his eggs in one basket
can trade their pick, Frank, Lance, Smith and Knox for Davis after the season, as long as they already signed their two max's before then. That's an infinitely better haul than anything the Lakers can offer, even if the pick falls to 3-5.
Kyrie
Dotson
Durant
AD
Mitch
Kornet
Trier
Allen (Who I think has a chance to be a player)
MLE
Then they'll be able to sign 4 vet min guys, whom there will be no shortage of, to fill out the roster. Wouldn't surprise me if DeAndre Jordan found some way to stick around and go ring chasing.
I would like to get AD but I think that is a severe overpay. The Pelicans have leverage but you dont need to give away every player on the team and four number 1s.
I agree. I was just trying to show that the Knicks can put together the best package for AD by a wide margin.
The young players all have to be part of the deal to clear space for ADs contract
So, it really comes down to how many first rounders Knicks include.
But make no mistake, KD, Kylie AD is the ultimate goal. They just need contingencies plans because they cant control whether those guys want to come to NY.
But what I like is Perry is giving the team a chance to build s team that could win multiple championships. Yet, he has a good alternate plan unlike Donnie who put all his eggs in one basket
If we somehow pull this off all 3 ...and fill out the roster kind of like Miami did when they signed their big 3, we would actually have a legit championship contender next year. When is the last time we could say that???
I think the wild cards (not life or death to championship hopes but will make for a better team) will be holding on to Frank and/or if we can somehow hold on to our 2019 first pick. A team like w/ a big 3 will need defensive stoppers more than scorers. Also could we resign a guy like Jordan and go over the cap?
I would like to get AD but I think that is a severe overpay. The Pelicans have leverage but you dont need to give away every player on the team and four number 1s.
I agree. I was just trying to show that the Knicks can put together the best package for AD by a wide margin.
The young players all have to be part of the deal to clear space for ADs contract
So, it really comes down to how many first rounders Knicks include.
But make no mistake, KD, Kylie AD is the ultimate goal. They just need contingencies plans because they cant control whether those guys want to come to NY.
But what I like is Perry is giving the team a chance to build s team that could win multiple championships. Yet, he has a good alternate plan unlike Donnie who put all his eggs in one basket
If we somehow pull this off all 3 ...and fill out the roster kind of like Miami did when they signed their big 3, we would actually have a legit championship contender next year. When is the last time we could say that???
I think the wild cards (not life or death to championship hopes but will make for a better team) will be holding on to Frank and/or if we can somehow hold on to our 2019 first pick. A team like w/ a big 3 will need defensive stoppers more than scorers. Also could we resign a guy like Jordan and go over the cap?
No, they would have to renounce Jordan, but they could ultimately bring him back on the midlevel exception of about 5MM if he would accept that.
I would like to get AD but I think that is a severe overpay. The Pelicans have leverage but you dont need to give away every player on the team and four number 1s.
I agree. I was just trying to show that the Knicks can put together the best package for AD by a wide margin.
The young players all have to be part of the deal to clear space for ADs contract
So, it really comes down to how many first rounders Knicks include.
But make no mistake, KD, Kylie AD is the ultimate goal. They just need contingencies plans because they cant control whether those guys want to come to NY.
But what I like is Perry is giving the team a chance to build s team that could win multiple championships. Yet, he has a good alternate plan unlike Donnie who put all his eggs in one basket
If we somehow pull this off all 3 ...and fill out the roster kind of like Miami did when they signed their big 3, we would actually have a legit championship contender next year. When is the last time we could say that???
I think the wild cards (not life or death to championship hopes but will make for a better team) will be holding on to Frank and/or if we can somehow hold on to our 2019 first pick. A team like w/ a big 3 will need defensive stoppers more than scorers. Also could we resign a guy like Jordan and go over the cap?
No, they would have to renounce Jordan, but they could ultimately bring him back on the midlevel exception of about 5MM if he would accept that.
No bird rights anyways since he signed a one year deal as a FA. They would have his 'non-bird rights' which basically means you can go over the cap to sign him to a deal that's 120% of his current contract annually. The cap hold is huge though so there's no way they don't renounce him.
Kanter is whining cause he wants of the team. He knows he's not the future, and he wants to play. In sir he feels, not playing, will diminish his value.
those on the non-Greg side of this (i.e., thinking Knicks can nab two key UFAs), isn't there a concern, SHOULDn't there be concerns:
KD has a lot of tread wear
With 3 NBA Championship rings w/ GS, is there desire left?
Is this a cash-out make me wealthy rest of life attitude?
How does he handle the cesspool of a presspool (as someone way above put it so well)?
How is he such a lock for value in a max contract where the players around him the next several years will be evolving?
those on the non-Greg side of this (i.e., thinking Knicks can nab two key UFAs), isn't there a concern, SHOULDn't there be concerns:
KD has a lot of tread wear
With 3 NBA Championship rings w/ GS, is there desire left?
Is this a cash-out make me wealthy rest of life attitude?
How does he handle the cesspool of a presspool (as someone way above put it so well)?
How is he such a lock for value in a max contract where the players around him the next several years will be evolving?
Because there isn't a player in the league who you couldn't nitpick about giving a max contract to as a FA. Durant is as good a bet as any to be worth every penny. He's the best or second best player in the NBA.
those on the non-Greg side of this (i.e., thinking Knicks can nab two key UFAs), isn't there a concern, SHOULDn't there be concerns:
KD has a lot of tread wear
With 3 NBA Championship rings w/ GS, is there desire left?
Is this a cash-out make me wealthy rest of life attitude?
How does he handle the cesspool of a presspool (as someone way above put it so well)?
How is he such a lock for value in a max contract where the players around him the next several years will be evolving?
You don't go to NY to glide off into the sunset.
Also Durant more than most is concerned about the external perception of him.
those on the non-Greg side of this (i.e., thinking Knicks can nab two key UFAs), isn't there a concern, SHOULDn't there be concerns:
KD has a lot of tread wear
With 3 NBA Championship rings w/ GS, is there desire left?
Is this a cash-out make me wealthy rest of life attitude?
How does he handle the cesspool of a presspool (as someone way above put it so well)?
How is he such a lock for value in a max contract where the players around him the next several years will be evolving?
Because there isn't a player in the league who you couldn't nitpick about giving a max contract to as a FA. Durant is as good a bet as any to be worth every penny. He's the best or second best player in the NBA.
Agreed on the nitpick part. He is the top get in FA with AD via trade probably second. Kawhi would be right there with AD but AD is probably a better fit if you get KD and doesnt have the recurring muscle problems Kawhi does.
those on the non-Greg side of this (i.e., thinking Knicks can nab two key UFAs), isn't there a concern, SHOULDn't there be concerns:
KD has a lot of tread wear
With 3 NBA Championship rings w/ GS, is there desire left?
Is this a cash-out make me wealthy rest of life attitude?
How does he handle the cesspool of a presspool (as someone way above put it so well)?
How is he such a lock for value in a max contract where the players around him the next several years will be evolving?
Talk about overanalyzing. Have you not been a fan for the last 50 years or so where the last 20 or so were just beyond horrendous?
If I am not mistaken, KD will be leaving money on the table if he leaves GS. So, him just being about his last payday and having no desire doesn't really make sense. Injuries are a concern but are you going to go after a lesser talented player and give them the max? Makes no sense.
As much as this is about the 2 max guys, it isn't all about the 2 max guys. We have a young core of Robinson, Knox, Frank, Trier, DSJ, Docson, and 7 first round picks over the next 5 years. We are in good shape.
is a nearly once-in-a-franchise's-lifetime opportunity.
But they don't change KD's age, and hasn't part of this 20-year nightmare of a franchise been a result, in part, of paying guys late in their careers and seeing them not earning it on the court?
Maybe KD is not psychically configured in the way that should concern Perry--maybe he's a slam dunk this way--but to Jon's counter that he is concerned more than most with his image/external perception, is that a good fit here in the Big Apple? A bit of a conundrum: franchise Saviour or 'nitpicking' whether he's been worth it in the NY media.
is a nearly once-in-a-franchise's-lifetime opportunity.
But they don't change KD's age, and hasn't part of this 20-year nightmare of a franchise been a result, in part, of paying guys late in their careers and seeing them not earning it on the court?
Maybe KD is not psychically configured in the way that should concern Perry--maybe he's a slam dunk this way--but to Jon's counter that he is concerned more than most with his image/external perception, is that a good fit here in the Big Apple? A bit of a conundrum: franchise Saviour or 'nitpicking' whether he's been worth it in the NY media.
My original post is not a "j'accuse" but a query.
Your point is well taken. It isn't the cleanest pairing.
But he's a top 3 player still at the tail end of his prime. He doesn't really get hurt. And it's not like his game is built on crazy athleticism, so it should age pretty well.
As for the media stuff, agreed, it could blow up if shit starts to go bad. But I'd much rather take that chance than not move heaven and earth to get him in the first place.
of near historic proportion on BBI (got to think it rivals even the most contentious Eli threads) was fascinating to go through, from disbelief, denial, rage, outrage, etc. to a more even handed evaluation of the outcomes once it hit home that KP (once unassailable as the Knicks' Saviour) was done with NYKs.
Question is which came first, chicken or egg, Perry et al. shopping him or KP and his team concluding he would sign a QO at best and then look elsewhere? At this point it doesn't matter, but the answer to that question will fascinate many.
And many will continue to focus on how could KD swap a dream franchise for this one...and how does he cope/perform in that new environment, if it comes to pass? Does Perry indeed have a magic wand big enough to neuter Dolan and Mills?
of near historic proportion on BBI (got to think it rivals even the most contentious Eli threads) was fascinating to go through, from disbelief, denial, rage, outrage, etc. to a more even handed evaluation of the outcomes once it hit home that KP (once unassailable as the Knicks' Saviour) was done with NYKs.
Question is which came first, chicken or egg, Perry et al. shopping him or KP and his team concluding he would sign a QO at best and then look elsewhere? At this point it doesn't matter, but the answer to that question will fascinate many.
And many will continue to focus on how could KD swap a dream franchise for this one...and how does he cope/perform in that new environment, if it comes to pass? Does Perry indeed have a magic wand big enough to neuter Dolan and Mills?
I was initially outraged/upset but now feel better about things...as this trade has gone lol.
of near historic proportion on BBI (got to think it rivals even the most contentious Eli threads) was fascinating to go through, from disbelief, denial, rage, outrage, etc. to a more even handed evaluation of the outcomes once it hit home that KP (once unassailable as the Knicks' Saviour) was done with NYKs.
Question is which came first, chicken or egg, Perry et al. shopping him or KP and his team concluding he would sign a QO at best and then look elsewhere? At this point it doesn't matter, but the answer to that question will fascinate many.
And many will continue to focus on how could KD swap a dream franchise for this one...and how does he cope/perform in that new environment, if it comes to pass? Does Perry indeed have a magic wand big enough to neuter Dolan and Mills?
I was initially outraged/upset but now feel better about things...as this trade has gone lol.
said the Pels did not think the Lakers first offer for AD was worth a response or a counteroffer lol.
Hilarious.
We can only hope the Pelicans/Davis (and his Dad) keep sticking it to LA and Boston.
This is setting up to be the most wild Knicks offseason ever.
Draft lottery
Potential AD sweepstakes
Potential number1 overall/top draft pick
Courtship of multiple max players
Gonna be fun.
I wonder if Perry talked to the Pelicans about AD and they wanted draft picks more than anything. Remember once the Pelicans trade AD, they are in a total rebuild so they have to acquire as many draft picks as possible. The Knicks can theoretically give the Pelicans 5 first round picks from 2019 to 2023 and 3 first round picks from 2019 to 2021. IMO the Knicks picks, especially this one (which could turn into Zion, RJ or Ja Morant) are more valuable to the Pelicans than 2 or 3 good but not great young Lakers players
And many will continue to focus on how could KD swap a dream franchise for this one...and how does he cope/perform in that new environment, if it comes to pass? Does Perry indeed have a magic wand big enough to neuter Dolan and Mills?
It might be a dream franchise to you or I, but it doesn't mean it was for him.
He's close friends with Luka Doncic, and Dirk has been something of a mentor for KP since they met. I think he's fine.
And many will continue to focus on how could KD swap a dream franchise for this one...and how does he cope/perform in that new environment, if it comes to pass? Does Perry indeed have a magic wand big enough to neuter Dolan and Mills?
It might be a dream franchise to you or I, but it doesn't mean it was for him.
He's close friends with Luka Doncic, and Dirk has been something of a mentor for KP since they met. I think he's fine.
I would like to get AD but I think that is a severe overpay. The Pelicans have leverage but you dont need to give away every player on the team and four number 1s.
Agreed. You need some assets to build fill out the team and for depth.
I would like to get AD but I think that is a severe overpay. The Pelicans have leverage but you dont need to give away every player on the team and four number 1s.
Agreed. You need some assets to build fill out the team and for depth.
If you get KD, AD, Kyrie...no other "assets" needed for 4 years. You can fill that roster with the right imperfect 2nd rounders and vet minimums and be a legit eastern conference contender.
"The city deserves better than that.... My suggestion for Knicks fans is to STAY WOKE!! Peace,"
The way he's behaved post-trade certainly makes me feel a lot better about the deal. He's a petulant child who continues to bad mouth the organization after he's dealt. Not to mention, his first public message post trade was a gif of him and Luka, not thanking the fans or acting in anyway with class.
"The city deserves better than that.... My suggestion for Knicks fans is to STAY WOKE!! Peace,"
The way he's behaved post-trade certainly makes me feel a lot better about the deal. He's a petulant child who continues to bad mouth the organization after he's dealt. Not to mention, his first public message post trade was a gif of him and Luka, not thanking the fans or acting in anyway with class.
KP is literally still just a kid, but I dont mind having Dallas now wait for his maturity to come.
People need to stop referring to KP as a kid. Hes not.
KP is 23 years old. Hes an adult. An immature, douchey adult.
Some people dont grow out of being a dick. Sometimes they are just a dick. KP is one of them and I hope his leg falls off.
It was clear that the Knicks were never going to be a top team with KP because I dont think that KP was going to draw any star players on his own. This is a risky move but one that could really pay off. And if now, what are we really losing? More disappointment?
For all the pissing and moaning about this shitty franchise and having no shot at big FAs because they all think the Knicks are a joke...star players seem to talk pretty highly about playing in and against NY [Knicks]. And they all seem to want to get their garden moment. I think the image of the Knicks/MSG is fine among players. The NBA is different these days and we just need to be in the right situation for them to come. We were almost there in 2010 but not quite. Hopefully we get there this time.
"The city deserves better than that.... My suggestion for Knicks fans is to STAY WOKE!! Peace,"
The way he's behaved post-trade certainly makes me feel a lot better about the deal. He's a petulant child who continues to bad mouth the organization after he's dealt. Not to mention, his first public message post trade was a gif of him and Luka, not thanking the fans or acting in anyway with class.
Stay woke to what? the only 2 people that thought this team was doing anything other than tanking was him and kanter...
Look at lee he knew what this was and never complained once about sitting..
KP is delusional and now the dailynews and howard beck are ripping the knicks because they did kp wrong...
first off how did the knicksrip him? they said he wanted out so they traded him..
"The city deserves better than that.... My suggestion for Knicks fans is to STAY WOKE!! Peace,"
The way he's behaved post-trade certainly makes me feel a lot better about the deal. He's a petulant child who continues to bad mouth the organization after he's dealt. Not to mention, his first public message post trade was a gif of him and Luka, not thanking the fans or acting in anyway with class.
Stay woke to what? the only 2 people that thought this team was doing anything other than tanking was him and kanter...
Look at lee he knew what this was and never complained once about sitting..
KP is delusional and now the dailynews and howard beck are ripping the knicks because they did kp wrong...
first off how did the knicksrip him? they said he wanted out so they traded him..
I believe he is saying keep your eyes open that stuff is really going on behind the scenes. This was a step put in motion for these guys (KD etc.) to come here.
Seemed like a noce guy- seemed like issues with the franchise started quite some time ago- his brother seems like a pain in the ass
But are we really now going off on kp and defending the franchise? What have the Knicks done In recent memory that would give them the benefit of doubt with handlings of things?
Seemed like a noce guy- seemed like issues with the franchise started quite some time ago- his brother seems like a pain in the ass
But are we really now going off on kp and defending the franchise? What have the Knicks done In recent memory that would give them the benefit of doubt with handlings of things?
Agree 100% on your point about the franchise. Cant fully trust anything they do or say.
Well, Fizdale flew to Latvia to kiss KP's ass for a week
and KP proceeded to throw Fiz under the bus with that Instagram post of him sprinting - that's when KP lost me. I'm not gonna act like a jilted ex now that KP is gone, but we all shared the same concerns about him regarding his durability and attitude. Once the initial shock wore off, I had no issue with this.
I find it very troubling that the Knicks blocked the Daily News
I liked the KP trade, but the Knicks organization gets no benefit of the doubt. Honestly, its amazing the arrogance of most Knick fans, this franchise has been a complete dumpster fire.
Amazingly, there are people on BBI more critical if the Giants than thru are the Knicks. Absolutely baffling.
RE: I find it very troubling that the Knicks blocked the Daily News
for media access. Good for the Post calling Dolan out on this. I cant imagine anyone defending this. Awful look.
Completely agree. I dislike Bondy as much as anybody, but he only became an Isola-level troll AFTER the Knicks starting bannng him. He was irritating but harmless beforehand.
Bondy is a troll- trolled the nets until they started winning - then got barred from Knicks and 50 percent of what he says is to troll- the other half I agree with
Seemed like a noce guy- seemed like issues with the franchise started quite some time ago- his brother seems like a pain in the ass
But are we really now going off on kp and defending the franchise? What have the Knicks done In recent memory that would give them the benefit of doubt with handlings of things?
Wait, KP continues to act like a child (seems like a nice guy) while the FO looks to be finally on the right track...but we are supposed to give KP the benefit of the doubt on his way out while he continues to throw shade at the team? Is that your take?
Please tell me where the Knicks have wronged KP at all over his time here? I mean, we obviously dont know everything that happens behind the scenes but normally wed hear something. Especially with how slimy and dirty the NY media is. What have the Knicks done to KP so bad that makes it okay to act like an entitled jerk who undermines the team? And then to demand a trade like hes some superstar when he hasnt even touched the court in a year?
Sorry, Im not going kill the team when the FO seems to be doing the right things while the immature player barks on the way out.
I liked the KP trade, but the Knicks organization gets no benefit of the doubt. Honestly, its amazing the arrogance of most Knick fans, this franchise has been a complete dumpster fire.
Amazingly, there are people on BBI more critical if the Giants than thru are the Knicks. Absolutely baffling.
This does have a different feel to it then prior years for the Knicks (like the Miami stuff was going on behind the scenes well ahead of it coming together) but yes we need to reserve judgement until it actually happens.
RE: I find it very troubling that the Knicks blocked the Daily News
for media access. Good for the Post calling Dolan out on this. I cant imagine anyone defending this. Awful look.
The Daily News is toilet paper, and when they actually employed writers they were shit stirring dirt bags. It doesnt bother me at all that they were blocked media access.
But durant has not talked to the media since kp trade, probably doesnt want to answer questions about the knicks but one of their beats said it is very unusual for kd not to be around
But durant has not talked to the media since kp trade, probably doesnt want to answer questions about the knicks but one of their beats said it is very unusual for kd not to be around
All due respect... it's February. Unless he's a moron he knows he will have to deal with these questions. I'd guess this is 100% unrelated.
RE: If you do not want to be treated like a tabloid
stop writing like a tabloid, the giants players basically threatened pat leonard and he was kicked off the rangers beat because he made up stories...
It doesnt look good but i can see why the new york sports teams are sick of the daily news
Exactly. They act like the NYDN is Woodward and Bernstein doing the world some big public service. Hes a hack for a tabloid covering a basketball team.
Seemed like a noce guy- seemed like issues with the franchise started quite some time ago- his brother seems like a pain in the ass
But are we really now going off on kp and defending the franchise? What have the Knicks done In recent memory that would give them the benefit of doubt with handlings of things?
Theres more to the story. Its not really a choose your side deal. I loosely know a player who was on the Knicks a couple of years ago (friend of a friend type deal) who said that KP changed a lot from the guy he was when he came to the team. He would argue with and not listen to coaches and thought he knew better. He was also partying more and putting in less work in the game. This guy told me that the former had a lot to do with Melos influence as they were close and the latter with him hanging out with Shumpert and JR early on. I thought with those guys gone and the new regime hed move past that and grow into his role as the leader of the team but thats clearly not what happened.
Seemed like a noce guy- seemed like issues with the franchise started quite some time ago- his brother seems like a pain in the ass
But are we really now going off on kp and defending the franchise? What have the Knicks done In recent memory that would give them the benefit of doubt with handlings of things?
Theres more to the story. Its not really a choose your side deal. I loosely know a player who was on the Knicks a couple of years ago (friend of a friend type deal) who said that KP changed a lot from the guy he was when he came to the team. He would argue with and not listen to coaches and thought he knew better. He was also partying more and putting in less work in the game. This guy told me that the former had a lot to do with Melos influence as they were close and the latter with him hanging out with Shumpert and JR early on. I thought with those guys gone and the new regime hed move past that and grow into his role as the leader of the team but thats clearly not what happened.
That was poorly worded. The guys on the team then were heavily influenced by Shumpert and Smith and it rubbed off on KP was my point
quite like a childish foreign white guy telling people to stay woke.
Ok Kristaps, this is a great way to use the term in regards to a team you feuded with that wanted you to sit out more games to ensure you were healed and try to get you a better player to play with next year.
Seemed like a noce guy- seemed like issues with the franchise started quite some time ago- his brother seems like a pain in the ass
But are we really now going off on kp and defending the franchise? What have the Knicks done In recent memory that would give them the benefit of doubt with handlings of things?
Theres more to the story. Its not really a choose your side deal. I loosely know a player who was on the Knicks a couple of years ago (friend of a friend type deal) who said that KP changed a lot from the guy he was when he came to the team. He would argue with and not listen to coaches and thought he knew better. He was also partying more and putting in less work in the game. This guy told me that the former had a lot to do with Melos influence as they were close and the latter with him hanging out with Shumpert and JR early on. I thought with those guys gone and the new regime hed move past that and grow into his role as the leader of the team but thats clearly not what happened.
This sucks to hear but it is not at all surprising. Another funny part of this is that Noah was sold as a great character guy for the team when we signed him and then apparently "partied too much." It's hard to undersell what a disaster the Knicks franchise is. I'll be thrilled if we can pull off signing KD and admit it is certainly possible but for the life of me I can't understand how anyone could have any faith in the front office. Perry seems good but Dolan is still the owner. And Mills is still the guy that paid Hardaway so much that we needed to package our best young player in like 20 years to get rid of him. It is definitely more likely that we find a way to screw up any plan than do something great.
But durant has not talked to the media since kp trade, probably doesnt want to answer questions about the knicks but one of their beats said it is very unusual for kd not to be around
All due respect... it's February. Unless he's a moron he knows he will have to deal with these questions. I'd guess this is 100% unrelated.
i would assume so, the beat writer just said it is very weird for kd not to be around and talk to media after game
RE: I find it very troubling that the Knicks blocked the Daily News
I can't bring myself to care about the daily news being blocked out when there are 30 other outlets who cover the Knicks (better). This isn't suppression of journalism.
of harsh coverage. All of the other beat guys are very critical of the Knicks. This has to do with Bondy's insistence on making things up to stir the pot clearly. Hell, he said the day of the trade that KP has been healthy enough to play but didn't trust the Knicks not to botch his comeback. Only a day later, the Mavs made it clear he's still recovering and Cuban said he's unlikely to play at all this year. This type of thing happens all the time...
was shock and disgust; I really like Porzingis. But, the more I think about it, the more I like the deal. First, they likely would have had to pay him a max deal coming off an injury. Second, he has yet to play a full season. Third, they get 2 1st round picks, and neither is lottery protected. Lastly, they now can push for 2 FAs.
One thing to think about though...at 31 next year, Durant will actually be 6 years older than Melo was when they dealt for him. If they actually land him and another, they have to push to win right away. And, I don't want Irving.
was shock and disgust; I really like Porzingis. But, the more I think about it, the more I like the deal. First, they likely would have had to pay him a max deal coming off an injury. Second, he has yet to play a full season. Third, they get 2 1st round picks, and neither is lottery protected. Lastly, they now can push for 2 FAs.
One thing to think about though...at 31 next year, Durant will actually be 6 years older than Melo was when they dealt for him. If they actually land him and another, they have to push to win right away. And, I don't want Irving.
Of course they do and if they don't then don't buy it or read it. Allowing rich assholes to ban press they don't like has nothing to do with quality content. It has to do with freedom of the press.
Of course they do and if they don't then don't buy it or read it. Allowing rich assholes to ban press they don't like has nothing to do with quality content. It has to do with freedom of the press.
Freedom of the press?? Lol, the idea of defending Dolan sickens me but that does not apply here.
A tabloid who calls itself a newspaper should be ignored not victimized.
Irving? He's an insanely good offensive player and it's not volume scoring. He's at like 50-40-85, fg, 3pt, FT % this year I think.
Irving and Durant would be a match made in heaven. They would work perfectly well together
Why would they work perfectly well together? He could co exist with LeBron who does a better job of sharing the ball than Durant. Kyrie and Durant are both scorers who need the ball. The reason Durant and Steph work well together is b/c it was Stephs team before he arrived and he doesnt have the on court attitude the Kyrie does
That's sad foolish and really dumb. But you're not alone there's about 37% of you.
What would be foolish is placing everything operating under the name 'journalism' on the same level.
Not all media should be held to the same standard. Barstool sports and the NY times arent the same animal, and some reporters are legitimate professionals and some are not. The wall st journal, times, Yahoo and ESPN can all still cover the knicks.
We can have a discussion about the fact that there is a legitimate effort to undercut real freedom of the press in the country, but this ain't it.
with Spencer Pearlman of The Stepien, an NBA draft website. Biggest news was about 15 minutes or so into the discussion - he said he had one source in Golden State and one in New York tell him that Durant is coming to the Knicks. Neither source works with the teams, but the Golden State source has provided accurate info in the past and the New York source is someone he trusts.
Regarding draft prospects, he said Zion is the only one who'd make his first tier in last year's draft (Jaren Jackson and Luka) - none of the other prospects would make second tier in last year's draft. He said Texas PF Jaxson Hayes may rise into the top five discussion by season's end. Maybe a KP replacement if we drop?
He closed with two thoughts on Perry. He's a big believer in developing relationships, and figures KP was jettisoned before his attitude became too much of a problem. He suspects they're dragging things out with Kanter through the trade deadline because the players know he's a clown, just like most fans do - no fear of him infecting anyone else. Also, Perry's super organized and will have Plans A-Z this offseason. Pearlman said Knicks fans shouldn't worry about paying top dollar to non-max guys, unless KD demands they get the best player they can as a running mate. KnicksFilmSchool - ( New Window )
Kristaps Porzingis brother wanted a bigger role with Knicks
The Knicks would also receive future first-round draft compensation from the Mavericks; all per Marc Stein
Too bad no one will ever come to the fucking clown show organization to use it on.
The Knicks would also have to add one $1.5M player to make salaries work.
How I feel:
Link - ( New Window )
Exactly. The Knicks have obviously been planning this for a while, KP got wind of it and wanted to meet to find out what the hell is going on, and Perry and Mills used Wojnarowski to make him look like the bad guy. Gross.
The Knicks would also have to add one $1.5M player to make salaries work.
better be Trey Burke
Exactly. The Knicks have obviously been planning this for a while, KP got wind of it and wanted to meet to find out what the hell is going on, and Perry and Mills used Wojnarowski to make him look like the bad guy. Gross.
Dolan is going to need one of those bullet proof Popemobiles to get around town. They were already a full on shitshow, but they managed to top their own record here.
Too bad no one will ever come to the fucking clown show organization to use it on.
This
By which time the Mavs with Doncic and KP will be a playoff team and the pick will be worthless. That's some stellar GMing by Scott Perry right there!
Cant wait to max out Tobias Harris and Boogie
Brian WindhorstVerified accountJ @WindhorstESPN
The Knicks are on way toward creating 2 max salary slots for next summer. When today started they didnt even have space for 1. They are preparing to swing big.
Mavs do not have 2019 pick
Step one of *what*?! This seems a lot like the underwear gnomes in South Park.
I would've been happier if they did. This is just completely fucking stupid and ridiculous.
Ill try to take the positive sign here. Who are the 2 maxes coming here? Can they move Jordan to a 3rd team for another asset?
This trade can also fuck up their pick. What a joke.
Even if this results in two stars this summer (ha!), it's still lousy process.
The best part is that the Mills is making the deal to get off of his own bad contract
I wish I were a Mavs fan. I dreamed about Luka and KP on the Knicks. Shit aint fair.
And he still has a job. Unbelievable.
However this went down - most likely a hit and run by Dolan and his two stooges - I really hate to see KP go.
But I dont think this is a bad trade. KPs attitude has been troubling & hes often hurt. Knick fans are just so beaten down that KP was hope. I like Perry & Fizdale, I trust what they are doing.
Think about what you're saying: you're putting faith in Perry, Mills, and Dolan, the Three Stooges.
Yup.
C'mon Greg - at least Timmy's gone!
Figure a LATE pick
👎🏽
I'll see this thing through, but I was nearly done with the NBA to begin with. This may push me over the edge...
LOL! Although to be fair, they might be the best basketball players the Knicks could get to play there at this point.
This trade is so bad, it even ruined THAT for me! haha
He'd circle Matthews and Jordan buy-out targets.
BUY THEM OUT!
BUY THEM OUT!
BUY THEM OUT!
However this went down - most likely a hit and run by Dolan and his two stooges - I really hate to see KP go.
This. Every time the Knicks get a glimpse of hope, the city awakens. Then Dolan and his crew ruin it.
And the Knicks use a 22 year old all star to dump 2 shitty contracts they gave out.
This team is going nowhere. A complete joke.
@ShamsCharania
1m
Sources: Full players involved in Knicks/Mavericks deal:
Kristaps Porzingis, Tim Hardaway Jr., Courtney Lee, Trey Burke to Dallas.
Dennis Smith Jr., Wes Matthews, DeAndre Jordan and likely first-round draft pick compensation to New York.
It was. I'm disappointed, but not in a hysterical state over this. It will be fun to listen to all the media folks who said KP was too injury-prone to lead us anywhere do the 180 and say we're doomed forever without him. It all boils down to this summer - a high pick and all the money in the world. It was all gonna boil down to this summer, one way or another.
Sources: Full players involved in Knicks/Mavericks deal:
Kristaps Porzingis, Tim Hardaway Jr., Courtney Lee, Trey Burke to Dallas.
Dennis Smith Jr., Wes Matthews, DeAndre Jordan and likely first-round draft pick compensation to New York.
or kd told them open up 2 max slots and ill bring someonr with me
No it's the Knicks, they will finish with the worst record but lose the lottery and pick 4th in a 3 player draft.
Agree but it sounded like the only goal was get rid of Lee and Hardaway to free up cap space.
They have been trying to get rid of Dennis Smith.
I'm puzzled and flabbergasted.
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During his meeting with the Knicks, Kristaps Porzingis indicated he wouldnt re-sign with the Pelicans if dealt there, per sources. It doesnt matter with Dallas acquiring KP, but along with Lonzo Ball, thats two young players not thrilled about possibly playing in New Orleans.
KP has a lot of talent, but has missed 140 games over 3 years.
That being said, this is a major risk and probably will not work out.
Quote:
has me convinced that the Knicks did not get max value for KP. If they were going to trade him he should have been in a deal for Anthony Davis.
Agree but it sounded like the only goal was get rid of Lee and Hardaway to free up cap space.
Couldn't they have done so by giving up another player like Frank, Knox, or Robinson?
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During his meeting with the Knicks, Kristaps Porzingis indicated he wouldnt re-sign with the Pelicans if dealt there, per sources. It doesnt matter with Dallas acquiring KP, but along with Lonzo Ball, thats two young players not thrilled about possibly playing in New Orleans.
Oh great it's like yeah, what's your solution to the player not being attractive because he might not sign some place. Dump him for a shitty return! Fantastic logic!
So the key, to me, are those two guys.
If they're not bought out, that signals an absolutely incredible fuck up by the Three Stooges.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA....yeah, that's happening.
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They can probably flip Jordan and Matthews before the deadline. Smith, I don't know what the plan would be with him.
Step one of *what*?! This seems a lot like the underwear gnomes in South Park.
Since Jordan is an expiring, and Capela is gone for most of the season, don't you think the Rockets will come calling with an offer of Knight plus filler and a couple 1st rounders? Granted, they aren't premium picks, but they have trade value too (see Boston).
Boston itself might like an inside presence who doesn't hurt their cap situation going forward- but would likely be wary of dealing with the Knicks who could use the cap space to steal Irving.
The Knicks could also use either player in a 3-way deal to give another team an expiring in exchange for picks and young players (and smaller expiring deals).
If they turn and trade Jordan (hello Toronto) and get a pick somehow.. this will work out.
DSJ may not be your cup of tea... but he will be the man on that team which is good for his mentality.
Exactly right. Fuck this franchise.
I have a feeling we're looking at KD + one hand picked running mate of his + Zion/Barrett + Knox + Robinson
Lol - sadly you're probably right
Giving anyone a max deal is risky. KP if healthy is already the best stretch rim protector in the nba. I dont get this deal... I only pray the Knicks have something up their sleeve but man, this one is tough to take. Why not just let hardaway expire in two years and just keep building this thing organically. Id rather win 30 games next year with no max signings and just keep at this. But who knows...
I have a feeling we're looking at KD + one hand picked running mate of his + Zion/Barrett + Knox + Robinson
From your lips to God's ear.
So the key, to me, are those two guys.
If they're not bought out, that signals an absolutely incredible fuck up by the Three Stooges.
Carlisle is going to be an incredible offense around Luka and KP. These moves by Dallas is how you build a team.
I heard the same
F*ck off KP.
Any other tidbits there, Mr. Dan?
Unfortunately Ive come to grips a long time ago with the reality that Im going to live my life on this planet without ever witnessing a Knick NBA championship.
But couldn't the Knicks match any deal? He's a RFA in the off-season.
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the record, KP told the Knicks flat out he would not be signing a deal after this season.
Any other tidbits there, Mr. Dan?
All I got for now. Text from someone who works at MSG (a friend) who doesn't work directly for the Knicks but has given me some tidbits before. He told them he would sign a QO and play out next season. They weren't willing to take that chance/call his bluff.
Tell us how you really feel.
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the record, KP told the Knicks flat out he would not be signing a deal after this season.
But couldn't the Knicks match any deal? He's a RFA in the off-season.
Planned on signing a QO, and then becoming a UFA. So no.
This was a good deal given the circumstances. Gives us a legit shot this summer.
Also frees Dennis Smith, who I think can rejuvenate his career.
What does that mean?
ay caramba!
Durant
Knox
Zion
Boogie
Mudiay
Trier
Robinson
Makes sense they didn't rust the Knicks why would anyone and what we've seen from KP kind of backups what Hahn is saying about Porzingis being a sensitive guy maybe not a NY guy.
Hanh also saying this nothing to do with Kanter and that KP and Kanter do not have any relationship good or bad. The Kanter stuff was a non factor.
LOL.
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.
What does that mean?
He wants to test free agency. Hes taking less money in the short term,playing out the year, and going to free agency.
I was okay trying to sell high on him.
But for a salary dump? Oof.
Dennis Smith, Jr., can jump out of the gym. He's exciting. I don't think he's a winning player. He isn't a good enough FT shooter or 3-point shooter, and he isn't a good enough facilitator for how reckless he is with the ball.
No problem. 100% no reason for me not to believe this person either. Rarely texts me about the Knicks, and has never given me incorrect information.
mills is very close to kds manager...
Knicks pitch now is ok kd come to new york bring whoever you want with you
He's not getting you assets. Probably a buy out.
mills is very close to kds manager...
Knicks pitch now is ok kd come to new york bring whoever you want with you
And KD will laugh at them and sign with someone else.
his deal basically expires after this season. Only a small portion of his money is guaranteed for next season.
That was his claim. He's yet to do it right? He's rejected nothing other than verbally committing long term to the Knicks. Per Hahn he wanted out of NY.
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the article before the season about irving and kd wanted to team up together..
mills is very close to kds manager...
Knicks pitch now is ok kd come to new york bring whoever you want with you
And KD will laugh at them and sign with someone else.
Of course.
When I say everyone I don't mean fans, but executives, agents and people within the league. I think everyone knew LeBron was going back to Cleveland, LeBron was then going to LA, Durant was going to GS, Davis is going to the Lakers and Durant is coming here.
No he doesn't.
I don't know how many times it has been posted on this site (probably in the thousands by now), but his deal for next year is only guaranteed for about $2M. Peanuts.
Yet some people STILL don't get it.
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That was his claim. He's yet to do it right? He's rejected nothing other than verbally committing long term to the Knicks. Per Hahn he wanted out of NY.
Yeah, that is all I was saying yesterday. Odds are he will sign long term but it wasn't a guarantee. It'll be interesting to ses if ue follows through.
Strong reason why I doubt it too.
Lets dream big here. Knicks get a top 3 pick. Trade the pick, Knox, Smith and Frank for Anthony Davis. Can they knicks still squeeze two maxes are close to it and create their own big 3?
Lol
NYC or DC. Dont count out his home ties to the District.
This has seemed to be the plan for the past 15 years. The fish stinks from the head. While Little Jimmy is there, what makes you think anything will be different than the plan to go after LeBron?
What's the market for Jordan? Nobody wants no-offense bugs.
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Will the Knicks be able to flip Jordan for a pick or does he have no value due to his cap number?
What's the market for Jordan? Nobody wants no-offense bugs.
Then package Kanter and Jordan to get a complete big.
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Durant will come to NY. No rhyme or reason. Just a gut feeling.
NYC or DC. Dont count out his home ties to the District.
no cap space for Wizards to sign him.
The guy is averaging 11 and 13. Why wouldn't they be able to sell him for something at least? He's worth giving up some assets for even if it's a rental. Try and get a good role player for him.
I hope the Knicks have a handshake agreement somewhere and a plan but likely not.
That's not going to happen. If they sign Kemba, KD ain't coming, and if they sign KD first, they're going to do a helluva lot better with the other contract than Kemba Walker.
Two years ago, i gave up on my first NY franchise. This wasn't that hard. Since I live in South Jersey, I am a fan of the Sixers. I am still a fan of the three other sports for NY teams.
Thats typical Knicks right there. If KD refuses a meeting this summer in the Hamptons (again), you know where this is heading.
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was it a good move?
That's not going to happen. If they sign Kemba, KD ain't coming, and if they sign KD first, they're going to do a helluva lot better with the other contract than Kemba Walker.
Forget Kemba then. Kyrie. If they got Kyrie and Durant with that space. I think you have to appreciate this deal. So, how good this deal really is still contingent...
I wouldn't give Kemba a max.
Prefer all of Kyrie/Klay/Boogie. Hell, I think I'd even like a Mirotic/Vucevic more.
On a team with Durant + a top 3 pick, I think I'd even like Bledsoe more than Kemba. (No, I would not give Bledsoe a max deal...I'm just saying fit-wise)
What have the Knicks ever done that gives you the slightest bit of confidence that they could pull that off?
If they get Durant and Leonard, or Kyrie etc, then this is a great trade
It is hard to evaluate without knowing what the Knicks will do moving forward
If the Knicks have Durant, Leonard, Zion ( or another top pick) that is a great start
Perhaps they can get a third top player to join them like the Heat did
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If they got Kyrie and Durant with that space. I think you have to appreciate this deal. So, how good this deal really is still contingent...
What have the Knicks ever done that gives you the slightest bit of confidence that they could pull that off?
Faith and possibility are two different things bro. I get the pessimism, but it's too early to really judge. This summer is the real test of this FO cohort.
I wonder if the deal is conditional on this happening. If so, it changes the equation somewhat in my mind. Another #1 in this draft would be nice.
Partially - he wanted to trade KP for Josh Jackson. This monstrosity of a trade might actually benefit us more than Phil's proposal.
Given that Kay is a fucking moron, it's not worth much
Watch this shithole franchise lose a draft pick for tampering, not get him, and then see him go over the bridge to Brooklyn.
We could find any number of teams this summer to take on Hardaway and Lee with KP. Why not be sure we can get the players first? Ugh.
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Probably need to wait for the summer for that. But that could be an additional move to two max signings...
We could find any number of teams this summer to take on Hardaway and Lee with KP. Why not be sure we can get the players first? Ugh.
you wouldnt be able to do it this summer
I was okay trying to sell high on him.
But for a salary dump? Oof.
Dennis Smith, Jr., can jump out of the gym. He's exciting. I don't think he's a winning player. He isn't a good enough FT shooter or 3-point shooter, and he isn't a good enough facilitator for how reckless he is with the ball.
Couldnt have said it better. KP isnt a guy who can just take over a game by himself. His low post game is soft, he gets hurt a lot...if we get Zion and two maxes out of this, Im thrilled. There is no way ft hat a 7'3" player with a game predicated on movement and jump shots is going to last that long in this league.
We wanted this guy to have a Dirk career, but KP was never that.
These types of things don't usually happen,lots of shitty lottery teams have had cap space in the past.
We could find any number of teams this summer to take on Hardaway and Lee with KP. Why not be sure we can get the players first? Ugh.
I don't understand this either. Why do it so quickly? They could have waited and perhaps shopped around for a better offer.
We could find any number of teams this summer to take on Hardaway and Lee with KP. Why not be sure we can get the players first? Ugh.
once they decided to trade him, they had to do it before the trade deadline next. Only way they could do it this summer is if he agreed to a sign-and-trade which is risky. Of course you can still kill them for the return and all the dumb moves that got them here.
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We have KP under control for one more year. What is the rush to do this now? The Pelicans are doing that with AD. What exactly is the rush?
We could find any number of teams this summer to take on Hardaway and Lee with KP. Why not be sure we can get the players first? Ugh.
I don't understand this either. Why do it so quickly? They could have waited and perhaps shopped around for a better offer.
KP is a RFA this summer. That makes it VERY hard to package him with other players to do a deal like this to shed Lee and THJ. There's a week until the deadline so maybe they could've waited until then but what other teams have expirings that match THJ and Lee and would take them on + have a young player the Knicks clearly covet in DSJ.
I have no view on whether the Knicks can/will sign Durant, but someone should sticky this so that if they do, Greg will have to eat his entire wardrobe.
May not be much of a meal, come to think of it ... :-)
Philly tanked for multiple years and stayed the course.
I just don't trust management to stay patient.
They did the same bullshit in 2010. Why not wait until you have the commitment and then do whatever it takes to create the space?
This may work out but I think its a stupid bet. And they just moved Porzingis to clear salary cap. Think about that....
This is not true at all.
If they keep building through the draft and develop young talent like Philly and Boston did they can be a contender again
They did the same bullshit in 2010. Why not wait until you have the commitment and then do whatever it takes to create the space?
This may work out but I think its a stupid bet. And they just moved Porzingis to clear salary cap. Think about that....
agree with all this. You can't trust these morons - Mills especially.
They did something similar, on a MUCH smaller scale, with the Wily trade. He wasn't happy with playing time - and he was shipped out pretty soon after.
If you're THAT sure you're getting somebody this summer - you use other assets to clear the contracts. Not KP. It's just dumb process.
A lot of us were skeptical of this "new" regime....seems our concerns were valid.
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they have to tank again
Philly tanked for multiple years and stayed the course.
I just don't trust management to stay patient.
PHilly (Hinkie) not only had a clear plan, but the risk they took resulted in two superstar talents(Simmons and Embiid) that didn't even play in their rookie seasons (with Embiid missing most of first three seasons), which helped perpetuate the several years of high picks.
- Knicks max out Tobias Harris
- Knicks max out Goran Dragic
- Knicks resign Deandre Jordan
Championship here we come!!!
I think this is where the Knicks are headed. Like I said dozens of times now, if you had to trade everything to get AD and cap space you would have to do it. The Knicks just traded one thing to get cap space. Thats one part of this thing.
I found that interesting. KP was happy here for about half a season - been downhill ever since.
Seemed like it took them 20 minutes to put this trade together though.
yeah, Nate and Lee got one-year qualifying offers I think. Nobody else even got that far.
At what point does Adam Silver, knowing the nba needs a viable team in NYC, step in and say why they cant get their shit together?
The Donald Sterling Era Clippers come to mind.
At least he had people you've heard of. Russo was interviewing Elvin Bethea while I was in the car.
Where will the 2063 Mavericks be selecting?
How about this: in the incredibly unlikely circumstance where that happens, I'll apologize and admit I was totally wrong? Because it's a helluva lot more likely that I will never have to do that because the Knicks are a farce run by clowns.
They must know his knee is shot or that someone is coming.
I've never changed my rooting interest for any team, but I will if we end up with a bunch of crap this summer after all is said and done.
they could sign 1996 Shaq and 2010 LeBron - and it would never be a brilliant deal.
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From top to bottom, this org is dysfunctional. Even the Browns got their shit together eventually.
At what point does Adam Silver, knowing the nba needs a viable team in NYC, step in and say why they cant get their shit together?
Silver answers to the owners - and the other owners have no reason to be unhappy with the current situation at MSG.
The hard part is that there is not any tangible asset coming back to the Knicks to make this deal plausible.
The positives of this deal are that the Knicks got rid of Hardaway and Lee and will be in the game for the major free agents. It is up to Mills/Perry/Fizdale to sell the Knicks. Fizdale will especially be under the gun as his coaching leaves a lot to be desired.
We also got 2 future first round picks.
Comparing this deal to the Ewing deal is insane as we got back below average players with bloated contracts.
Embid tweets "LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL"
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Any franchise can turn things around. Weve seen the cubs, browns and cavs turn things around. The giants were the worst team of the 70s then they turned it around. The Knicks were the model in that same decade. Then sucked. Then were very good for a decade.
Its all about acquiring talent.
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From top to bottom, this org is dysfunctional. Even the Browns got their shit together eventually.
Any franchise can turn things around. Weve seen the cubs, browns and cavs turn things around. The giants were the worst team of the 70s then they turned it around. The Knicks were the model in that same decade. Then sucked. Then were very good for a decade.
Its all about acquiring talent.
yeah - and it starts with acquiring talent in the front office. And in that department, we have the worst team president in the sport.
Screamin' A should never be quoted or referenced about anything. The guy is a self-aggrandizing embarrassment.
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To fuck them out of Zion and Morant. Why? Because its the Knicks. Theyd fuck up a wet dream.
No it's the Knicks, they will finish with the worst record but lose the lottery and pick 4th in a 3 player draft.
The last time they picked 4th in a 3 player draft, they took the guy that everyone is now pissed that they traded.
2) Dennis Smith Jr. is BARELY an upgrade over Mudiay
3) This could've all been avoided if STEVE MILLS DIDN'T FUCKING SIGN TIM HARDAWAY JR.
HOW THE HELL DOES MILLS STILL HAVE A JOB!?!?
Bwahahahahahahaha
Oh my God. Sure, let's get Bronnie James!
Why the hell would anyone come to this hellhole? Last time we got a guy with shot knees and traded our core for fucking Melo.
Why the hell would anyone come to this hellhole? Last time we got a guy with shot knees and traded our core for fucking Melo.
lakers do not
nets do not if they want to sign russel
clippers do not if they sign harris
2) Dennis Smith Jr. is BARELY an upgrade over Mudiay
3) This could've all been avoided if STEVE MILLS DIDN'T FUCKING SIGN TIM HARDAWAY JR.
HOW THE HELL DOES MILLS STILL HAVE A JOB!?!?
Dolan is just trolling us. He will probably give Mills a 10 year extension.
The Knicks were actually taking the right approach this season.
Embid tweets "LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL" Link - ( New Window )
I dont know if this proves wise or not (depends on free agency), but I dont give a fuck what all those players think.
They all think Melo is a god, when he hasnt hustled or played defense in 6 years (and didnt do it often before then)
Every one of those guys would sign all their boys and run the team into the ground were they a GM
There's nothing intrinsically amazing about the Knicks. The New York area is a great place, but it's also expensive and cold. They've been terrible for virtually all of these young guys' lives. The clowns running the show cycle through and are still there.
If you're the Warriors leadership you sit down and say; we draft smart, we attract talent, we have a brand new arena, our ownership writes blank checks, our coach has a millions rings.
What do the Knicks say? Come save this franchise and please convince someone else to come -- and by the way don't worry about that pile of players, coaches and GMs tasked with this before we keep in the corner.
If they become good- you watch and enjoy for the youth of NY.
And if it's a cluster fuck you get to laugh again.
Embid tweets "LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL" Link - ( New Window )
I hate the trade, but Joel Embiid is one of the biggest jackasses on the planet. WGAF what that drooling imbecile thinks?
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Yeah, we have space for two max guys. So do the Lakers...so do the Nets...so do the Clippers.
Why the hell would anyone come to this hellhole? Last time we got a guy with shot knees and traded our core for fucking Melo.
lakers do not
nets do not if they want to sign russel
clippers do not if they sign harris
In other words, they will have two max spots...
Or if Mills didn't inexplicably sign THJ to a ridiculous contract....for absolutely no reason.
...love basketball, really, and I would have been nice to see them (and mines) have 'that moment'.
Lord knows, nearly everything else good and true has been stolen from them.
The Knicks were actually taking the right approach this season.
This is what I don't understand. The Knicks could get Zion, Barrett, or Morant in the draft plus Durant/Irving/etc in free agency. Pair them with him and the Knicks are a legit contender but he wants out? Fuck him!
KD
DSJR
Knox
Robinson
Frank
Dotson
Draft Pick
I guess it depends on the draft pick. With Zion Williams?
Well that makes it 100x worse
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The guy can't stay healthy, is out for a year, while the Knicks are intentionally putting themselves in position to get a top pick in the draft and bring in a max player, and now he decides that he wants out?
The Knicks were actually taking the right approach this season.
This is what I don't understand. The Knicks could get Zion, Barrett, or Morant in the draft plus Durant/Irving/etc in free agency. Pair them with him and the Knicks are a legit contender but he wants out? Fuck him!
So knowing all that -- and he didn't want to be here -- might that say an awful lot about the organization?
if Smith's presence means Mudiay is gone after this year then that's at least a tiny bit of good news.
Is he? Is he really MUCH better? They have very similar stats, except Mudiay is averaging more points.
@IanBegley
Knicks announce the trade but dont specify which 2 future first round firsts theyre getting. NYK GM Scott Perry: Considering the uncertainty regarding Kristaps free agent status and his request today to be traded, we made a trade that we are confident improves the franchise.
Is it possible to give up our first this year with the 2 first from Dallas for AD?
Where would that leave us in terms of signing max players? Is it possible to still get 2 more max players?
Have to make sure we continue to lose. Gotta get that top pick. Morant would be redundant now. Zion or bust!!
I am not at all confident the Knicks will get the right free agents. Good things never happen to us, ever, after Ewing.
Finally, fuck KP, what a drama queen hes turned out to be?!?!
Verified account
@MikeAScotto
The two first-round picks the New York Knicks will receive from the Dallas Mavericks in the Kristaps Porzingis trade will be in 2021 and 2023, The Athletic has learned. Both picks are protected.
And Lance Thomas will still be here :'( . The longest tenured Knick
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Matthews, Jordan all need to be moved to playoff teams.
And Lance Thomas will still be here :'( . The longest tenured Knick
Need to start working on an extension now.
I also dont buy the bullshit that KP wanted out and their hands were tied. Good teams make it work. Shitty teams hope for a miracle.
And really glad we stretched Noah in September. What a complete joke of a team.
So knowing all that -- and he didn't want to be here -- might that say an awful lot about the organization?
He's been a douche (or at least douche adjacent) for a while. Some people just chose to ignore it because they hated Phil Jackson a lot.
I don't care that they traded him. I care that they were willing to accept a shit return just to rectify their original mistake of THJ's idiotic contract.
ESPN Sources with @IanBegley: Dallas is sending New York a 2021 unprotected first-round pick and a 2023 protected first-round pick (1-10) in the deal.
Dolan is probably at fault but that crowd and the father son duo at the draft (who actually looks a lot like Mitchell Hurwitz) just paint this awful picture I cant stand and makes me want to give this team up.
Stranger than fiction lol
Dolan is probably at fault but that crowd and the father son duo at the draft (who actually looks a lot like Mitchell Hurwitz) just paint this awful picture I cant stand and makes me want to give this team up.
Stranger than fiction lol
Huh?
ESPN Sources with @IanBegley: Dallas is sending New York a 2021 unprotected first-round pick and a 2023 protected first-round pick (1-10) in the deal.
Alright. I believe Woj over Scotto.
That would be fantastic.
add it to the list of things that "might" turn into something good with this team. I won't be holding my breath for something good to actually happen.
that said, I can't recall a time when the Knicks had another team's unprotected first.
I guess they had the Spurs' picks in the mid 2000s - but there was zero chance they were going to be high picks.
They did shop him around first as has been reported by a bunch of reputable reporters. This didn't all come together today.
I really don't think you get a better deal for him.
Dallas is taking a big gamble on a often injured soon to be FA.
They ate THR and Lee's contracts plus gave away a decent PG and they have traded 2 picks.
If porzingis continues to get hurt or leaves after a year.
Dallas fans will lose their minds
Here you go:
New York Knicks: B
This is one of the most fascinating trades in recent NBA memory, with perhaps only one good comparison: the Los Angeles Lakers agreeing to trade D'Angelo Russell and Timofey Mozgov to the Brooklyn Nets just before the 2017 NBA draft in exchange for Brook Lopez and the No. 27 pick in that year's draft (eventually Kyle Kuzma).
Like that trade, this one involves a team surrendering one of its best trade chips in order to shed salary, while also picking up useful pieces in return. On his own, giving up Porzingis would surely be too much in exchange for moving the $37 million remaining on Hardaway's contract after this season and the $12.8 million Lee was scheduled to make in 2019-20. Add in Smith and draft picks and I believe the risk in this trade tilts in their favor.
Naturally, New York wouldn't make a deal like this without confidence in the organization's chances of landing at least one and possibly two marquee free agents. Shedding not only the $31 million owed to Hardaway and Lee but also Porzingis' $17.1 million cap hold gives the Knicks upward of $70 million in cap space this summer. The final number will depend on where New York's draft pick lands as well as the decision on Allonzo Trier's $3.6 million team option, but the Knicks should have the ability to sign both a player with 10-plus years of experience (like Kevin Durant) and one with five to nine years of experience (like Kyrie Irving) to max contracts.
Alternatively, it is possible this trade could be the precursor to a run at Anthony Davis this summer. Including Porzingis in a Davis offer after the deadline would have been difficult if not impossible because he would have had to agree to a sign-and-trade as a restricted free agent. Even now, the threat of Porzingis accepting his qualifying offer and becoming an unrestricted free agent in the summer of 2020 might have scared off the New Orleans Pelicans from considering him a valuable piece of a deal.
If the Pelicans are interested in Smith, he could be part of a Davis offer this summer. So too could any draft picks New York gets. Ultimately, the Knicks probably need to land the No. 1 overall pick via this year's lottery to offer a realistic package for Davis.
Whatever direction New York takes, Smith is a useful piece to add because of his potential and his modest $4.5 million salary for 2019-20. Some 19 months after a front office led by Phil Jackson passed on Smith in favor of drafting Frank Ntilikina with the No. 8 pick in 2017, the Knicks now have both players, whose skill sets could be complementary given Ntilikina has frequently played off the ball during his first two NBA seasons.
Fittingly, Russell was my comparison for Smith's potential when I assessed his trade value earlier this month. While it might take a couple of seasons for Smith to become a quality point guard -- an issue if New York shifts into win-now mode by adding veteran stars this summer -- he remains a promising prospect whose value could be rehabilitated with the Knicks. We've seen former lottery picks Burke and Emmanuel Mudiay put up better numbers in New York's offense than their previous stops, and if Smith can do the same, he might become a more attractive trade chip if the Knicks decide to move in a different direction.
Undoubtedly, this trade is a huge gamble for New York. If the Knicks strike out in free agency and are unlucky in the lottery, the team could be left starless after dealing Porzingis. Nonetheless, if the Knicks are right to be confident in their chances in free agency, I think this was a good way for them to clear the necessary cap space.
Dallas Mavericks: C-
Make no mistake, this move is a gamble for the Mavericks too, though of a different sort. They're betting that Porzingis will get back to full strength after last year's ACL injury and stay healthy -- as well as re-sign in Dallas for the long term.
Forgoing this summer's free agency makes sense for the Mavericks, who haven't gotten much buzz as a destination for stars despite Luka Doncic's promising rookie season. Assuming Harrison Barnes picks up his $25.1 million player option, Dallas will be just about capped out this summer after adding Hardaway, Lee and Porzingis' cap hold. And that's fine.
The Mavericks should be competitive next season with a healthy Porzingis while looking toward either the summer of 2020 (when Barnes and Lee become free agents) or 2021 (when Hardaway's contract expires) for a big splash in free agency. Doncic's rookie deal, which won't expire until after he makes a paltry $10.2 million in the 2021-22 season, gives Dallas the luxury of patience to strike. And Hardaway is hardly dead salary. He'll be an important part of the team's wing rotation the next two seasons.
When he returns to the court, Porzingis will be a fascinating fit for the Mavericks. Long compared to Dirk Nowitzki as a 7-foot-plus European with deep shooting range, Porzingis will now potentially succeed him in Dallas and could form one of the league's most potent pick-and-roll partnerships with Doncic. If Porzingis is the same player we saw before his injury, opponents will have few good options against Doncic-Porzingis pick-and-pops, with either player capable of pulling up from 3 or taking advantage of a mismatch after a switch.
However, Porzingis' restricted free agency this summer complicates the issue. His concerns about the Knicks surely accelerated the timetable on this deal, and it's unclear how Porzingis will feel about playing for the Mavericks. ESPN's Adrian Wojnarowski reported Thursday that he has yet to make a decision about his future in Dallas, which is both understandable and not exactly reassuring for the Mavericks.
I'm not sure I buy the threat of Porzingis accepting his qualifying offer and becoming an unrestricted free agent in the summer of 2020. Such a move would be unprecedented for a player who was offered the kind of deal he wanted coming off his rookie contract, and that's before factoring in the value of security for a player coming off an injury. That said, there's a first time for everything, and Porzingis might value the ability to determine where he plays enough to stomach the risk of reinjury.
If Porzingis indeed re-ups long term, the injury risk shifts to the Mavericks. There's long been concern that Porzingis' 7-foot-3 frame put him at risk of injury, and depending whether he is cleared by the end of the season, Dallas might have to commit without seeing him play in an NBA game after the ACL injury.
Without having access to Porzingis' medical reports, it's tough to assess just how much of a gamble the Mavericks are taking here. From the outside, however, it's too much to be worth giving up both Smith and draft picks.
To be better than the max contract Dallas hopes to give him, Porzingis will have to be durable and effective enough to play at an All-Star level. I think it's much more likely that he falls short of that than plays so well as to be worth more than the max. As a result, I would have taken my chances with Smith's development, the picks and whatever else the Mavericks could have acquired by renting out their cap space.
DSJ, Frank, Dotson, Knox, Robinson, Knicks first rounder this year, Noah stretch $6M
I hate giving up KP but it's nice for the Knicks to be receiving first round picks rather than giving them away.
Apparently, they offered KP to the Pelicans as part of an AD deal and the Pelicans said, "No". At least NO picked up the phone unlike with the Lakers.
But sure the Knicks will do what only one other NBA has ever done this offseason. Steve Mills and Scott Perry are comparable to Riley and Wade...
If you have Irving and Durant you can find guys on vet min deals. They also could maybe trade Frank and resign Vonleh for example. If the Knicks don't get into the top 3, I would think Bol Bol may now be an option too.
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the NBA agent business said Knicks had an idea that KP did not want to sign here long term. They brought him in and were told that in person. He never liked it in NYC. I still think they should have shopped him around first
Apparently, they offered KP to the Pelicans as part of an AD deal and the Pelicans said, "No". At least NO picked up the phone unlike with the Lakers.
Exactly. With the uncertainty with Porzingis signing long term that isn't what they are looking for. They'd want long term assets.
But sure the Knicks will do what only one other NBA has ever done this offseason. Steve Mills and Scott Perry are comparable to Riley and Wade...
Unlike previous Knicks disasters, there are young players on the roster who can improve, the possiblity of 4+ high-end draft prospects (Zion, Ja, Barrett, Reddish), and all of their future picks.
That hopefully makes them less desperate than they were with STAT.
I'd rather look more toward the guards if we are outside the top 3. Guard play is huge in today's NBA.
Definitely. And although the siuation cannot help but evoke memories of the Lebron fiasco, I think it is adifferent set of circumstances.
Lebron, Wade and Bosh had a secret arrangent among themselves to go to Miami and Pat the Snake likely knew all about it. Knicks also had a GM who was a good basketball man but not connected to the world of the players.
I think Perry is much more in tune with what players are thinking. KD is completely enigmatic and nobody knows what he will do. Kyrie is all over the map. So who knows. But you gotta be in it to win it. So, I like that Perry is giving the Knicks a chance.
Also, Perry is stockpiling first rounders rather than using them to unload salary the way Donnie did. So, if the whole thing falls through, Knicks will have a bunch of picks to work with.
(Booze is helping too.)
say best case scenario you get irving and durant, vets will come play with the knicks, filling out the bench will not be a problem
...so what's new?
Only mystery is why they have any fans left.
assuming no vets...
probably irving, dot or trier, durant, knox, robinson
This happened in a blink.
This happened in a blink.
Knicks supposedly had been shopping him
...so what's new?
Only mystery is why they have any fans left.
So you're leaving, right?
And Kanter...whatever. Fuck that guy. Bring back Shved.
And BTW, nice job being a day late on John Jenkins...
Sure. See you in July.
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somehow land two stars, it's going to be very difficult to build an actual rotation. They will have a bunch of interesting young pieces (Trier, Mitch, Frank, DSJ, Knox, and whoever they draft) under contract, but none of these guys are ready to step up and play meaningful minutes for a contender. It would be the ultimate "stars and scrubs" roster.
say best case scenario you get irving and durant, vets will come play with the knicks, filling out the bench will not be a problem
well if you say so! lol...
If the Knicks get two high end FA, the vets will flock in for a shot at a ring- remember that the CBA allows teams to add many vet minimum salaries. Look at what the Cavs did for years- or the Heat.
Let's say they bring in Durant and Irving. Robinson would be part of the defensive bench rotation at the 5. Smith probably is a rotational guy in the backcourt. Knox probably is the scorer off the bench. After that, you get 5-6 vets who will play cheap- and you have a strong team.
The Knicks even have a small group of players at a moderate salary who can be traded for cheaper vets or better fits. of course, the picks are also valuable trade assets to fill in the team as well.
Think guys like Danny Green, Marcus Morris, Patrick Beverly, TJ McConnell, Wilson Chandler, KOQ and the like. They are not stars, but they know how to play the modern NBA game, can do the "little things" and score just enough to keep teams honest.
Little did I know at the time, being a Knicks fan would largely suck for the rest of my life. I don't even count the Ewing years as satisfying and it wasn't because of him. I always felt they never surrounded him with enough talent. Chicago surrounded Jordan with more.
And here we are.
I have an 11 year old son (who is a pretty good basketball player (usually leads his teams in points and assists) and has always rooted for my NY teams including the Gmen (even though he has spent his entire life in FL).
How can I continue to tell him to root for the Knicks? They've sucked his entire life! And will probably continue to do so for who knows how long.
Talk to me in July.
Ive seen better players moved for less. I loved KP but I would have moved him and every resource we had if we could land AD and open up one max slot. This isnt the same kind of trade but its similar.
It would be ironic and maybe even apt if the scariest trade possible turned out to be the one that led this team out of the wilderness. All we can do is hope.
Lastly, KP wanted out and the Knicks reportedly were trying to deal him for months now. Think about that before you eviscerate Perry and the Knicks here. It sounds like this want some half baked plan that came out of nowhere.
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somehow land two stars, it's going to be very difficult to build an actual rotation. They will have a bunch of interesting young pieces (Trier, Mitch, Frank, DSJ, Knox, and whoever they draft) under contract, but none of these guys are ready to step up and play meaningful minutes for a contender. It would be the ultimate "stars and scrubs" roster.
If the Knicks get two high end FA, the vets will flock in for a shot at a ring- remember that the CBA allows teams to add many vet minimum salaries. Look at what the Cavs did for years- or the Heat.
the Heat had guys ready to contribute already on the roster (e.g. Haslem, Chalmers). We have projects
five or six? Is that all? lol...
several of the players you mentioned are not at the stage of their careers where they'd ring chase on minimum deals. They'd still want to be paid.
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somehow land two stars, it's going to be very difficult to build an actual rotation. They will have a bunch of interesting young pieces (Trier, Mitch, Frank, DSJ, Knox, and whoever they draft) under contract, but none of these guys are ready to step up and play meaningful minutes for a contender. It would be the ultimate "stars and scrubs" roster.
say best case scenario you get irving and durant, vets will come play with the knicks, filling out the bench will not be a problem
Plus the trade route.
The Knicks have young talent, picks and a ton of cap space. We will
Miss KP but think about what they have not what they lost. They have never ever ever ever been in the spot before. Literally, never. A lot of idiots are screaming on the fan that the Knicks cant attract FAs so why bother? Well, they have only had max room one fucking time when they signed stat.
Go big or go home. Cant blame them here for trying. Its scary and it could blow up in their face but its a worthy risk, I think.... I hope...
And both of those teams are significantly better than the Knicks.
Am I missing something?
walsh couldnt get curry off the books so they couldnt fit 3 guys...
riley was able to do it so thry went to miami...
wade himself said they talked about going to new york but knicks couldnt fit 3 guys...
when wade swapped with hardaway you could clearly hear him say i always wanted one of these talking about the knick jersey
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In comment 14282884 Enzo said:
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somehow land two stars, it's going to be very difficult to build an actual rotation. They will have a bunch of interesting young pieces (Trier, Mitch, Frank, DSJ, Knox, and whoever they draft) under contract, but none of these guys are ready to step up and play meaningful minutes for a contender. It would be the ultimate "stars and scrubs" roster.
If the Knicks get two high end FA, the vets will flock in for a shot at a ring- remember that the CBA allows teams to add many vet minimum salaries. Look at what the Cavs did for years- or the Heat.
the Heat had guys ready to contribute already on the roster (e.g. Haslem, Chalmers). We have projects
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Let's say they bring in Durant and Irving. Robinson would be part of the defensive bench rotation at the 5. Smith probably is a rotational guy in the backcourt. Knox probably is the scorer off the bench. After that, you get 5-6 vets who will play cheap- and you have a strong team.
five or six? Is that all? lol...
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Think guys like Danny Green, Marcus Morris, Patrick Beverly, TJ McConnell, Wilson Chandler, KOQ and the like. They are not stars, but they know how to play the modern NBA game, can do the "little things" and score just enough to keep teams honest.
several of the players you mentioned are not at the stage of their careers where they'd ring chase on minimum deals. They'd still want to be paid.
Chalmers was going into his third year when Lebron went to Miami. Same as DSJ/Frank and he certainly hadn't done much to date. Haslem wasn't exactly a guy you couldn't find a replacement for on a min deal. Hell, the Knicks picked up Vonleh on a vet min deal this year
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until after free agency, they go out and sign durant and someone else this deal was brilliant
they could sign 1996 Shaq and 2010 LeBron - and it would never be a brilliant deal.
Thats just stupid. Even if not Durant, if the Knicks went out and got Davis and Leonard with the room and managed to draft Zion, this deal is a no brainer.
Signed as one who likes this move. KP, did not like it here, dowles not have that killer instinct and wanted big money despite being a tulip on the court. We dumped the contracts we wanted to and are pretty much done with the Phil era players.
Id kick him in the knee.
They are going for the grand slam. If they swing and miss, they will suck just like they would have if they didn't trade Porzingis. If Durant doesn't come when he can bring another guy with him, he certainly wasn't going to come to play with Porzingis coming off of an ACL injury.
In an ideal world they would never have signed clowns like Tim Hardaway and they wouldn't have had to do something like this, but considering the circumstances, I think they made the right decision.
It's a risk, but it's one they had to take. Doing this was the only way they could open up 2 max slots.
The Knicks have the worst luck in the world and they have a moron of an owner but they're due for something to go their way.
It is a risk but it's not nearly as big of a risk as some are saying. Does anyone really give a shit if they are 15-67 next year versus maybe 40-42? I am only interested in plans that can make them a potential title contender. Finding a path to being one with Porzingis and 1 max slot assuming Durant was not coming would have been next to impossible. It's much easier to find a path if they get the 2 right guys with those 2 max slots.
It sucks that they made previous mistakes that put them in the position of having to do this, but I have a feeling this is going to work out very well for the Knicks. Even if it doesn't, I'm more than fine taking the chance, because I don't give a shit if the knicks are 40-42 or if they are 15-67. They either have a shot to win a title or don't.
I love Ja Morant. If the Knicks have the #1 pick thats who I want. Barrett right behind him. I'd probably rank Zion 3rd.
Get Ja Morant and 2 max free agents that aren't guys like Kemba Walker and time to go to war.
Morant
Kyrie
Knox
Durant
Robinson
probably wait until after deadline..
Im sorry, thats bullshit. All KP did from the time he got here was miss games and chirp like hes some ten year vet headed to the hall of fame. Maybe this team wouldnt be in the position its in had KP actually contributed a bit more and....acted like he actually wanted to be here?
There is no doubt the Knicks are a dumpster fire. But in this case, KP is as much responsible as anyone else. He could have been a legend here. He wasnt up to the task. Blame him. Not the Knicks.
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probably wait until after deadline..
What good does that do?
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@IanBegley
On Wesley Matthews and DeAndre Jordan, Knicks GM Scott Perry says the veteran players can help the young Knicks in the remainder of the season. No mention of a buyout.
Yep. Why would anyone but trash players like Hardaway and Thomas ever choose to play for a pathetic laughingstock?
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protect his health and stress levels, while trying to win on a consistent level. I don't blame him wanting out of this shitshow. The Knicks have been a joke for two decades.
Im sorry, thats bullshit. All KP did from the time he got here was miss games and chirp like hes some ten year vet headed to the hall of fame. Maybe this team wouldnt be in the position its in had KP actually contributed a bit more and....acted like he actually wanted to be here?
There is no doubt the Knicks are a dumpster fire. But in this case, KP is as much responsible as anyone else. He could have been a legend here. He wasnt up to the task. Blame him. Not the Knicks.
You're not wrong. My point is that these guys are selfish, just like the owners. I get why KP wanted out and I get why the Knicks wanted out too.
But the fact remains. The Knicks are a dysfunctional, trash organization.
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In comment 14282932 Anakim said:
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probably wait until after deadline..
What good does that do?
they are probably going to wait to see if they can flip them for an asset
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@IanBegley
On Wesley Matthews and DeAndre Jordan, Knicks GM Scott Perry says the veteran players can help the young Knicks in the remainder of the season. No mention of a buyout.
Facepalm.
Verified account
@IanBegley
On Wesley Matthews and DeAndre Jordan, Knicks GM Scott Perry says the veteran players can help the young Knicks in the remainder of the season. No mention of a buyout.
Uhh..as long as that "help" is from the bench and not trying to win games.
A little worried about the tank here.
Now here's where I am on the trade:
1) I love the idea of creating cap space
2) I have failed to understand why KP hasn't understood and accepted what the Knicks were doing this year. Hubris maybe? If he bought in and saw the vision (tank for top pick, get him an established sidekick, take over the east) then this wouldn't have happened. Instead he wanted what?? To have the Knicks mired in mediocrity by making half assed moves like they have for the last 20 years??
3) I'm shocked they didn't do better in the trade. It's really bad...and I read that other teams are saying they are inquired on KP recently and Knicks told them he was untouchable...and then this trade happened without checking with then. That's inexcusable if true.
nothing
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Ian Begley
Verified account
@IanBegley
On Wesley Matthews and DeAndre Jordan, Knicks GM Scott Perry says the veteran players can help the young Knicks in the remainder of the season. No mention of a buyout.
Facepalm.
What else is he going to say?
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In comment 14282926 B in ALB said:
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protect his health and stress levels, while trying to win on a consistent level. I don't blame him wanting out of this shitshow. The Knicks have been a joke for two decades.
Im sorry, thats bullshit. All KP did from the time he got here was miss games and chirp like hes some ten year vet headed to the hall of fame. Maybe this team wouldnt be in the position its in had KP actually contributed a bit more and....acted like he actually wanted to be here?
There is no doubt the Knicks are a dumpster fire. But in this case, KP is as much responsible as anyone else. He could have been a legend here. He wasnt up to the task. Blame him. Not the Knicks.
You're not wrong. My point is that these guys are selfish, just like the owners. I get why KP wanted out and I get why the Knicks wanted out too.
But the fact remains. The Knicks are a dysfunctional, trash organization.
Unless the Knicks can seance 2016 Lebron James, any pairing of stars needs to be paired with a much smarter, wiser, and responsible front office.
It's fair to suspect KP is an ass. It's clear as day the Knicks organization is chalk full of complete asses top-to-bottom.
If somehow Durant ups and chooses NY and brings a buddy -- a lot still needs to get better before the Knicks are title contenders.
I think when you considered the risk factor Knicks got a lot for KP.
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In comment 14282941 Anakim said:
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Ian Begley
Verified account
@IanBegley
On Wesley Matthews and DeAndre Jordan, Knicks GM Scott Perry says the veteran players can help the young Knicks in the remainder of the season. No mention of a buyout.
Facepalm.
What else is he going to say?
Yeah, I get that, but let's hope he's not telling the truth.
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I went for a walk right after Woj's initial tweet about KP being upset. I come back & he's a on the verge of being a freaking Mav.
This happened in a blink.
Knicks supposedly had been shopping him
Cuban was at the Garden the other night. They have been working on this trade for a while.
Now THAT I can totally believe.
Porzingis thinks hes a lot better than hes proven to the league so far.
It was obvious when a young player lacking any type of stature in the league tried to pull what he did ditching his team exit meetings a couple years ago.
For all the Mets fans out there, you know what Im talking about, this guy is Matt Harvey in a baseball uniform. Talent through the roof, over-inflated opinion of himself, injury concerns.
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@IanBegley
On Wesley Matthews and DeAndre Jordan, Knicks GM Scott Perry says the veteran players can help the young Knicks in the remainder of the season. No mention of a buyout.
Kanter's reaction to this tweet:
Enes Kanter
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Enes Kanter Retweeted Ian Begley
Lol 🤔
Trading KP could have made sense under different circumstances but not for this return. What the fuck would DSJ even offer on a team with Kyrie and KD? You just have to flip him again for something else, and its doubftul he has much value considering hes been on the market for weeks and nobody showed interest.
Trading KP could have made sense under different circumstances but not for this return. What the fuck would DSJ even offer on a team with Kyrie and KD? You just have to flip him again for something else, and its doubftul he has much value considering hes been on the market for weeks and nobody showed interest.
what did you expect them to do? KP was not re signing and his brother is dictating or trying to dictate who to sign...
Knicks did the best they could...
they went from 29 million in cap space to 74 and all they had to give up was kp...
and they got 2 future 1sts....
they also got a young player who is excited to be in new york
I see the trade him perspective for sure but I don't understand why people think this is a good return. The step forward he took from rookie to year 2 was significant and there isn't really any reason to believe he doesn't have another big step forward in him.
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Than DSJ and a salary dump. I have no interest in DSJ and was among those who would not have traded Frank for him, let alone the fucking franchise cornerstone. Shoot first, low efficiency player, awful. Hate it.
Trading KP could have made sense under different circumstances but not for this return. What the fuck would DSJ even offer on a team with Kyrie and KD? You just have to flip him again for something else, and its doubftul he has much value considering hes been on the market for weeks and nobody showed interest.
what did you expect them to do? KP was not re signing and his brother is dictating or trying to dictate who to sign...
Knicks did the best they could...
they went from 29 million in cap space to 74 and all they had to give up was kp...
and they got 2 future 1sts....
they also got a young player who is excited to be in new york
Honestly if the 1st were this year and 2021 and not protected I think the trade would have been awesome.... But having to wait for 2021 and 2023 for picks that will probably be in the 20s..not ideal...
I see the trade him perspective for sure but I don't understand why people think this is a good return. The step forward he took from rookie to year 2 was significant and there isn't really any reason to believe he doesn't have another big step forward in him.
Ability to stay healthy?? There is a reason unicorns don't really exist
3 more years. Team option after next year, then you can extend him or give him the QO.
Perry deserves the benefit of the doubt here. If KO wasn't signing here long term then he took KP and traded him for a young guard, 2 first round picks, and cleared a shit load of cap space. Is it ideal? No but this is all hinging on getting two studs this offseason. If that happens then this was a homerun. If not then, like Mook said, where is the downside if KO wasn't signing here long-term? The only downside is people saying we could have gotten more. Yes, we could have but would those moves allowed us to get two max players?
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Than DSJ and a salary dump. I have no interest in DSJ and was among those who would not have traded Frank for him, let alone the fucking franchise cornerstone. Shoot first, low efficiency player, awful. Hate it.
Trading KP could have made sense under different circumstances but not for this return. What the fuck would DSJ even offer on a team with Kyrie and KD? You just have to flip him again for something else, and its doubftul he has much value considering hes been on the market for weeks and nobody showed interest.
what did you expect them to do? KP was not re signing and his brother is dictating or trying to dictate who to sign...
Knicks did the best they could...
they went from 29 million in cap space to 74 and all they had to give up was kp...
and they got 2 future 1sts....
they also got a young player who is excited to be in new york
Bam.....all of this. Plus, this idea that because of this pairing of KP and Doncic that the Mavs picks will be that of a playoff team....the Mavs are in the bottom third of the entire league with DSJ. Are some of you really duggesting that injury plagued KP and Doncic are going to set the league on fire in an absolutely loaded West? I have my doubts.
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people here are acting like this guy isn't a potential MVP caliber player and he's still only 23.
I see the trade him perspective for sure but I don't understand why people think this is a good return. The step forward he took from rookie to year 2 was significant and there isn't really any reason to believe he doesn't have another big step forward in him.
Ability to stay healthy?? There is a reason unicorns don't really exist
Nobody knows if this is bad luck on health or going to be a chronic thing. You have to take into account that 2 seasons ago and this season we didn't want to win. Quite possible he plays a lot more games if that wasn't the case.
Even if he would have been out this long regardless you don't know.
His upside if he is healthy is way too large for this return.
There is a reason you NEVER see players like KP traded. Can you think of an example of a player this young with as much potential as KP traded?
Meanwhile, Trey Burke posted this:
The Celtics traded very old players and got unprotected first round picks in the years immediately following. This is nothing like that trade
If he did that with Knicks you would of gotten nothing for him...
Michael Rapaport - ( New Window )
How confident were we really that Porzingis and a bunch of kids were going to be enough to lure a big time free agent like Durant or Irving? Especially coming off of an ACL injury and a year in which the Knicks are probably going to win 20 games. So in the likely scenario that we miss on a free agent, they are settling for maxing Porzingis, which is a risk given the injury history, and hoping some of the kids pan out. To me that sounds like being just good enough for the next 4 years to be in "lottery hell" good enough to never have a high draft pick, but not good enough to ever win anything.
We now have a legitimate shot of landing Kevin Durant. If he was ever going to leave the Warriors for the Knicks, it is a heck of a lot more likely with the opportunity to play here with Kyrie Irving, Kawhi Leonard, Kemba Walker, or even Anthony Davis if the ping pong balls fall right allowing us to swing a trade for him.
If we don't get Durant? Now we have young pieces to develop (Knox, Robinson, Trier, Ntilikina, Smith Jr.), hopefully a top 3 pick, and we will be terrible for at least the next 2 seasons giving us more chances at hitting it big in the draft. The future Dallas picks are just gravy on top of that.
Either way, we now have 2 clear paths back to relevancy whether it be this summer in free agency or a couple years from now through the draft, and we avoid the potential of settling for mediocrity by maxing out Porzingis with little else around him. (ask the New Orleans Pelicans how that type of thing has worked out for them)
Last I knew, teams can offer their own FA more $. Has that changed?
And both of those teams are significantly better than the Knicks.
Am I missing something?
Higher chance of the everything going wrong scenario where they get shut out in free agency and the Mavs picks wind up high and meaningless. We'll see.
Last I knew, teams can offer their own FA more $. Has that changed?
And both of those teams are significantly better than the Knicks.
Am I missing something?
I get Irving wanting to go home, but I don't understand KD leaving an incredible situation for less money, to fight an uphill battle on a franchise that could fuck up making water to drink.
Last I knew, teams can offer their own FA more $. Has that changed?
And both of those teams are significantly better than the Knicks.
Am I missing something?
From a competitive standpoint:
If you add 2 of 3 of the elite free agents, pair them with top 3 draft pick..Knicks are automatically top 2-3 in East and conference championship contenders..
From a legacy standpoint:
Whatever star(s) turns the Knicks around will be legend..they will own the city. There is nothing in all of pro sports like the Knicks when they are winning. They are THE only NY sports team that gets the entire city behind them. Every other sport is split..not basketball. Knicks own NY. Bringing a championship back to the garden..that should be the ultimate prize for these guys..
Agreed.
This can't be another STAT situation or Melo situation. We have continually failed... This time has to be different..
They have two max slots, a top pick in this draft, they had a good draft last year. DSJ might even be a player himself. They have future draft picks.
If they cant get stars to come here now under these conditions, they never will.
Obviously talented, but his sense of entitlement amidst missing way more games than he plays is, in the words of BBI, the actions of a pre Madonna.
Rather take my chances with a core of Knox, our #1 pick and the cap space.
Love the unprotected Mavs pick. Maybe Uniocrn doesn't fall in love with Dallas either. Maybe he's hurt again and that pick is a good get.
At any rate, very pleased with this -- good, decisive move.
This is my top pairing.
my hope knicks get 2 max stars and zion first game opening night national television against the mavs at the garden...
first possesion down i dont care it is someone dunks on kp
I wonder if the knicks since they have been shopping kp for awhile, i wonder if durant told them through back channels id rather pick my own costar...
I wonder if the knicks since they have been shopping kp for awhile, i wonder if durant told them through back channels id rather pick my own costar...
I think this absolutely has something to do with it. If you're Durant and come here to play with Porzingis, does that even guarantee that you are better than the current top 3 in the East? Why make the jump for that? Now if you pair Durant with Irving or Leonard, now you are probably the favorites.
greg if durant comes can you post the video of you eating your clothing please hahaha
We better not get hit with any tampering charges or anything that fucks this franchise and its fans over.
Knicks isolated him during his rehab...
Knicks didnt want him to play this year...
it is going to be one big sob story...
Dude your shit agent aka your brother couldnt even tell you that you were being shopped, they talked to 8 or 9 teams and it was never leaked...
Yes.
2021 unprotected, 2023 top 10 protected.
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will be
Yes.
2021 unprotected, 2023 top 10 protected.
What happens if Mavs get top 5 in lottery this year and keep their pick? Does that mean the Knicks picks get pushed back to 2022 and 2024??
Hes acting like a petulant teenager.
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In comment 14283075 xman said:
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will be
Yes.
2021 unprotected, 2023 top 10 protected.
What happens if Mavs get top 5 in lottery this year and keep their pick? Does that mean the Knicks picks get pushed back to 2022 and 2024??
No clue.
*I apologize for asking this twice and not following much non Knicks NBA anymore. You guys really have Some of the best conversations to follow on BBI. Its never as toxic as other discussions are.
He's going to leave that for the Knicks?
He's going to leave that for the Knicks?
*I apologize for asking this twice and not following much non Knicks NBA anymore. You guys really have Some of the best conversations to follow on BBI. Its never as toxic as other discussions are.
Short answer- talented player but flawed. Guy definitely belongs in the league though.
With that said- he was a throw in for this deal. Trade was about the cap.
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Smith Jr had a lot of potential and upside to some on here during the draft. He seemed to have a pretty good rookie year, but with Doncic he is not needed. He sounds like an afterthought in this trade from what I am reading here. Anyways being so young, is he just never going to be a really good player? Or can Fizdale turn him into something special? Is he just going to traded again?
*I apologize for asking this twice and not following much non Knicks NBA anymore. You guys really have Some of the best conversations to follow on BBI. Its never as toxic as other discussions are.
Short answer- talented player but flawed. Guy definitely belongs in the league though.
With that said- he was a throw in for this deal. Trade was about the cap.
Thank you Tyree, really appreciate it.
Shitty trade for the Knicks on the surface but well see. Durant looks like Warriors/Knicks at this point. Kyrie has made it clear hes unique, he can do whatever and it wouldnt surprise me. Zion is far from a safe bet. Knicks are very hit or miss now. Dolan is obviously a joke but the franchise still means enough where I could see a non-hungry Durant try and make his legacy here. Durants a total bitch though so in the NY market that would be extremely interesting.
Doncic is a future MVP barring something crazy. Him and KP could be insane together. Going from the best white Euro of a generation to the best two of the next is a real possibility. Cubans a smart businessman. KPs weakness was he couldnt create for others on offense, Doncic takes care of that. Could be a monster team if they stay healthy and make the right moves.
They didn't fuck the rebuild if KP didn't want to be here. We would have been left with nothing if he walked. At least we attached our 2 bad contracts and picked up 2 firsts along the way. You can't make players want to play here. KP comes out of this looking horrible imo, he had a chance to be a legend in NY and chose to be a baby and let him brother call the shots, and leave with his tail between his legs. Let him be the Mavs problem now.
Many people won't call him out because they hate Dolan, Phil Jackson, and they hate the Knicks. And these are actual Knicks fans I'm talking about. You said the key word... entitled. His talent got confused with actual accomplishments, of which he had none on a personal or team level.
You see the newspaper articles and it's, "Poor Kristaps Finally Fed Up With the Evil Knicks".
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He will have spent three seasons with one of the best run franchises in sports, with an excellent culture and competence from top to bottom.
He's going to leave that for the Knicks?
I just get the feeling the Knicks will end up with Kemba and Cousins and never be quite good enough to really be a title contender.
I don't see Cousins going there either. He already played for a dysfunctional franchise and he now knows (and appreciates) the difference.
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He will have spent three seasons with one of the best run franchises in sports, with an excellent culture and competence from top to bottom.
He's going to leave that for the Knicks?
I just get the feeling the Knicks will end up with Kemba and Cousins and never be quite good enough to really be a title contender.
The difference between now and the previous time the Knicks had ample cap space is they actually have their own draft picks and some young players. That should make it less likely that the Knicks feel the need to splurge on a less than elite free agent.
As far as I can tell basketball players get paid a ton and the sport isnt declining in popularity to my knowledge so I guess it doesnt bother people as much.
*I dont know, follow, or have an idea about hockey so I dont know where they would fall in this. I did used to work across the street from the Boston Garden and saw a ton of Bruins games, really cool sport live, even when I dont know anything.
Every fair trade is going to hurt for both sides. Given that there are both Knicks fans that are upset and Mavs fans that are upset, it at least has to be somewhere in the realm of fair.
Some upset Knicks fans are complaining that DSjr is an inefficient volume shooter. They seem to forget last year when KP would often settle for contested off balance jumpers from the elbow most of the game. After the first 10 games last year KP really fell back down to earth. Granted he has huge potential, but people speak about him as if him unlocking his potential is guaranteed.
That all said, trading KP to clear cap space is tough to swallow. The two 1st rounders help it go down a bit easier.
This fiasco is why I wanted the Knicks to sign KP to a contract with injury clauses in it this past off season, regardless of how it would affect the Knicks cap. Given the reports though, now we don't know if it was the Knicks or KP who wouldn't do the deal. I have no info on this but I wouldn't be surprised if the Knicks did try to sign him, he said no, and the Knicks spun it to the media that they didn't sign him so they could have cap space.
Overall, I agree with those that say this is a gamble:
1) If the Knicks can land two big free agents, it will work out.
2) If the Knicks miss on free agency and don't waste their cap space on long term contracts for mediocre players, it's still not the end of the world. I actually still give Perry more of the benefit of the doubt than most here. I would not be surprised if the Knicks are still tanking next year with multiple 1 year contracts on the books. It's possible that maxing KP would have locked the Knicks into mediocrity for the next 4 years
3) If KP doesn't pan out, gets hurt, or leaves the Mavs the Knicks "win" the trade regardless.
4) Lastly, is the doomsday scenerio where KP becomes a superstar and the Knicks spend all of their cap space on mediocre talent and don't go anywhere for the next four years. If this happens, well then ugh.
It seems to me, that as long as the Knicks continue to make smart decisions going forward then chances are that this isn't the worst trade in the world as some seem to think it is.
...want to sign with an epic shit franchise like the New York Knicks?
Mavs/NBA fans believe Rick Carlisle is hard on young Point Guards
Luka Doncic is best with the ball in his hands which made DSJ somewhat redundant
DSJ himself is kind of immature and also has some negative influences around him.
...want to sign with an epic shit franchise like the New York Knicks?
Several people have given their opinion on this in the thread but I guess easier to just ask again so you can insult the franchise??
Simple answer: it's the Knicks (only pro sports team in the city that gets the entire city behind it) and you get to play in the Garden 41+ times a year....the chance to be the savior of that?? Someone, someday will be the savior .and when it happens they will own the city in a way that no player has.
At one point they talk for a moment about where did it all go wrong for the Knicks that lead to them being this much of a joke. One of the guys on the show suggested it was in signing Amare, which seems like low-hanging fruit. Simmons made (what I thought was) a great point the issue wasnt signing Amare, really. It was idiotically using the amnesty buyout on a Chauncey Billups contract that wasnt bad and had pretty much no term left, just so they could sign Chandler and create their fugazy version of a Big 3.
If they had held on to their amnesty long enough to use it on Amare, the Melonera could have gone a lot better.
Which is not to say they wouldnt have found another way to fuck it all up...
Anyway, that BS podcast is worth a listen if you have 45 or an hour to kill.
The 2 firsts did make me feel a lot better, especially the unprotected one. PIcks in the NBA are much more valued around the league then say 5-10 years ago.
The knicks should put a list of like 4 names on a white board. It should be KD, Irving, Kawhi, Klay. Those are the only guys id want to max and im not honestly even sure on Klay. If they strike out on them then offer reasonable deals to Kemba, Boogie, harris, middleton, etc.. but not max. If you dont get them fine. Keep the space. One of the issues we had with the caspace this year was we had to use it because we had to sign KP soon and hew was going to eat a ton up, we dont have that anymore. Be that 3rd team in a trade that makes money work and gets youth/picks out of it, sign guys to big 1 year deals and trade them later for assets, etc.. Please dont spend just to spend.
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...want to sign with an epic shit franchise like the New York Knicks?
Several people have given their opinion on this in the thread but I guess easier to just ask again so you can insult the franchise??
Simple answer: it's the Knicks (only pro sports team in the city that gets the entire city behind it) and you get to play in the Garden 41+ times a year....the chance to be the savior of that?? Someone, someday will be the savior .and when it happens they will own the city in a way that no player has.
Not to mention, it seems a lot of players around the NBA love Fizdale. That's gotta help.
How can Clyde Frazier sit there and announce that shit, I know he is getting paid but the man does have integrity.
This could be the master plan, Knicks were on double secret tank for the past couple of years, fooled everyone.
Exactly - I get the collective frustration after 20 years of Knicks lulz, but this is the first time theyve stopped trying to sign/trade for middling talent to shoot for the 8th playoff spot and actually committed to a total teardown/rebuild.
Will take a couple years to see how they do with the plan, but they have all their draft picks, including what should be a top 3 this year, and plenty of cap space now. This is completely different than any other point of the 2 decade Knicks debacle.
Now, lets see what they do with these resources. Im sure well be disappointed all over again during free agency this summer, but at least theyre trying something sensible now.
They can pay two top stars without having to give up anything, and they have a young guy that has some real potential and a chance this year to add a top 3 draft pick. That's not a situation they have ever been in before.
Do you mean the odds of winning a certain pick? Those are known and published.
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so I just read up on it. Who determines the 4 ping pong codes for each team and is that known to us as fans or do they just do the reveal on ESPN so nobody but Ernst and Young sees it?
Do you mean the odds of winning a certain pick? Those are known and published.
No, not the odds. I get that. I am saying whem they pull our 4 ping pong balls and get that 4 digit code then how do we know what team that coincides with.
And please stop with all the trust in Scott Perry. This guy isnt exactly Sam Presti. What exactly has he done well ?
Lastly, cap space is the most overrated thing in sports. Its nice to say you have it, but you actually need good players. And the Knicks just traded away by far their best player for peanuts on the dollar.
Shved?
And please stop with all the trust in Scott Perry. This guy isnt exactly Sam Presti. What exactly has he done well ?
Lastly, cap space is the most overrated thing in sports. Its nice to say you have it, but you actually need good players. And the Knicks just traded away by far their best player for peanuts on the dollar.
you realize kp was never resigning here and not going to recruit anybody..
Exactly!
They have never done it.. they have been mired in mediocrity for years, always landing only the 2nd tier players.. not to mention they have had TERRIBLE lottery luck. I read an article sometime in the last year or 2 about how they have had the worst lottery luck of any team since Ewing.
So... if they can land 2 of Durant, Irving, Leonard this summer and get a top 3 pick, then we're rocking and rolling..
But... if they miss on the lottery and can't get 2 of those 3...then the question is will they have the patience to do the right thing and tank again?
Basically they can only build the right team now, they can't waste this and build a team that isn't a championship contender.
Last point/question: Is anyone worried about KD's age? Maybe we would be better off with Kyrie, Kawhi because they are each 3 years younger...
With that being said, the timing on this made it right. If Porzingis truly didn't want to be here, you can't go into the off-season with him as your recruiting tool. Plus, what superstar is coming to the Knicks to play with Porzingis, who hasn't been on the court in over a year and has been hampered by nagging injuries prior to the knee.
If the Knicks wait to deal him in the off-season, they miss out on their opportunity at two max contracts, and they sell him for $0.75 on the $1.00.
Bottom line is, I hate the way today's NBA is constructed, thanks to LeBron and his manipulative past. The players have too much leverage, and hold the teams (and fans) hostage. I've come to grips with this, for now, but I'm still very skeptical on this ending well for the Knicks.
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So it's not a repeat of anything.
Exactly!
They have never done it.. they have been mired in mediocrity for years, always landing only the 2nd tier players.. not to mention they have had TERRIBLE lottery luck. I read an article sometime in the last year or 2 about how they have had the worst lottery luck of any team since Ewing.
So... if they can land 2 of Durant, Irving, Leonard this summer and get a top 3 pick, then we're rocking and rolling..
But... if they miss on the lottery and can't get 2 of those 3...then the question is will they have the patience to do the right thing and tank again?
Basically they can only build the right team now, they can't waste this and build a team that isn't a championship contender.
Last point/question: Is anyone worried about KD's age? Maybe we would be better off with Kyrie, Kawhi because they are each 3 years younger...
Not really worried about his age mainly because he can only get a 4 year deal.
Who comes close? The Lions? The Jets? Things are looking up for the Browns.
I think it's Durant and I think Durant's people probably said something like "yea we'd have interest but he needs to recruit" hence the space for second max.
Who do you think Durant feels better about? Porzingis coming off an ACL tear? Or Irving/Leonard?
There's also this year's pick which could possibly turn into Zion, Barrett, Morant or part of a deal for Davis.
The possibilities are wide open.
I mean the guy was like 14 at the time of the tweet, but still
Who comes close? The Lions? The Jets? Things are looking up for the Browns.
it is funny you say embarrassment because every single analyst has said this is a good deal
The Knicks held all the leverage and instead sold low and got very little value for a 22 year old all star.
I actually admire a lot of peoples optimisim. But how can you have any faith in this regime. Just look at the track record! Howd Mills do with that cap space in 2016 and 2017?
I hope Im wrong but I just dont see Irving and Durant signing up for this. This roster currently doesnt have any good nba players. Young guys may have potential, but currently they are no good players. Bottom line.
The Knicks held all the leverage and instead sold low and got very little value for a 22 year old all star.
I actually admire a lot of peoples optimisim. But how can you have any faith in this regime. Just look at the track record! Howd Mills do with that cap space in 2016 and 2017?
I hope Im wrong but I just dont see Irving and Durant signing up for this. This roster currently doesnt have any good nba players. Young guys may have potential, but currently they are no good players. Bottom line.
umm it has already been announced that he is playing on the qualifying offer
The Knicks held all the leverage and instead sold low and got very little value for a 22 year old all star.
I actually admire a lot of peoples optimisim. But how can you have any faith in this regime. Just look at the track record! Howd Mills do with that cap space in 2016 and 2017?
I hope Im wrong but I just dont see Irving and Durant signing up for this. This roster currently doesnt have any good nba players. Young guys may have potential, but currently they are no good players. Bottom line.
I don't think they had much leverage at all. You saw it with Leonard, you are seeing it with Davis, and you just saw it with KP. Once these guys make it known they don't want to play for the team anymore, their value plummets. Everyone knew KP was unhappy, this shouldn't be shocking.
And for Dennis Smith, who Dallas has wanted to trade, and who we likely would have drafted if we'd been run by someone other than Phil Jackson. But, of course, with this team switching directions every 5 minutes, we have a guy in Nitilkina who has no confidence and no shot, as well as no Porzingis.
Being a bad team and tanking are two different things.
They haven't tried to tank for draft position. They were actually trying to field a competitive team and were just inept.
At the end of the day, if he's not gonna sign, you have to trade him. I'm not sure they got the best deal they could have, but if you look back, it seems he really was unhappy here and wasn't gonna sign. So, bye. Dallas can take the risk of signing him to a max deal and hoping he stays healthy.
And maybe he was unhappy. How about making things right with him? Isnt thats what Fizdale/ Mills/ Perry are supposed to be good at building relationships? Because they arent good at anything else.
But dont worry. Steve Mills is going to get Durant and Kyrie to leave the 2 best franchises in the league to come here....
And for Dennis Smith, who Dallas has wanted to trade, and who we likely would have drafted if we'd been run by someone other than Phil Jackson. But, of course, with this team switching directions every 5 minutes, we have a guy in Nitilkina who has no confidence and no shot, as well as no Porzingis.
first off kp was not staying...
second how did they switch directions? plan was alwsys sign a max and tank...
now they have room for 2 max slots, what is more appealing signing to play with kp or signing and bringing a friend?
and how are they dysfunctional? because they traded a player that told them he didnt want to be hrtr
I hope it isn't the case but lets assume that the Knicks do strike out in free agency. I disagree that the media will influence the Knicks into wasting their cap space on marginal players. Will there be voices screaming that the Knicks are dumb for trading KP and then not signing anybody big... sure. But most people seem to agree that if the Knicks do miss all of the big fish that the best option is to just sign short term deals and roll the cap space over into the following season. Assuming that's the case, doesn't it imply that the media would actually be pressuring the Knicks into not wasting their money on sub-par talent?
People claimed that the media in NY would not let the Knicks tank properly, but before this trade there seemed to be as many media members lauding the Knicks for finally "tanking properly" as there were complaining about how bad they are. I think going forward things will have a similar outcome with some media complaining and some not. As pasted earlier in this thread the espn writer guy actually liked the trade better for the Knicks than the Mavs.
My point is, regardless of how poor the Knicks have been run for the past few decades, Perry is still relatively new to this job. In my opinion those that assume the worst case scenario is the only possible outcome of this trade are being short sighted.
And maybe he was unhappy. How about making things right with him? Isnt thats what Fizdale/ Mills/ Perry are supposed to be good at building relationships? Because they arent good at anything else.
But dont worry. Steve Mills is going to get Durant and Kyrie to leave the 2 best franchises in the league to come here....
fizdale flew to fricjen latvia to make him happy, what else do you want?
his brother was telling the knicks who they could and could not sign...
And maybe he was unhappy. How about making things right with him? Isnt thats what Fizdale/ Mills/ Perry are supposed to be good at building relationships? Because they arent good at anything else.
But dont worry. Steve Mills is going to get Durant and Kyrie to leave the 2 best franchises in the league to come here....
It's not just about KP taking the max contract. If he's unhappy, he could demand a trade after he signs it. They could say no but it could become an ugly, public battle. What people aren't talking about is the fact that before this deal, the Knicks really had this offseason to strike big in FA, otherwise they had to wait until THJ came off the books (2021) because once KP signs that max deal his cap number is too big to fit a max in. If he's unhappy publicly, it would've likely been detrimental to their chances with anyone.
They've been trying to make things right with KP since Phil was canned. It didn't matter because his brother thinks he's Jerry Maguire and in turn was trying to dictate what moves the Knicks could/couldn't make. KP has not been good enough or durable enough to be dictating the team's moves.
Let's get real.
And maybe he was unhappy. How about making things right with him? Isnt thats what Fizdale/ Mills/ Perry are supposed to be good at building relationships? Because they arent good at anything else.
But dont worry. Steve Mills is going to get Durant and Kyrie to leave the 2 best franchises in the league to come here....
I think they tried with KP..
He just hasn't seemed to buy in to the only plan that makes sense..
Instead of trying to act like he wants to come back this year and being disgruntled... come out with a statement saying "I am going to spend this year focusing on getting strong and preparing for the 2019-20 season." Then go into the shadows, let the team tank, and recruit your ass off. That's what the Knicks needed from KP.
He and his brothers just didn't seem to understand the concept.
All he has to do is look at the 76ers.
Building a competitive team in the NBA is very simple. It's not easy being patient. But the concept is very simple.
This isn't the NFL. The idea of franchises holding 'leverage' over players doesn't work the same. Players self-determine in the NBA. Jimmy fucking Butler has won nothing and gets to decide where he wants to play.
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The New York Knicks are the biggest embarrassment in professional sports. Week after week it's something new. It's either on the court or off the court, but the Knicks are bound to leave this city feeling ashamed.
Who comes close? The Lions? The Jets? Things are looking up for the Browns.
it is funny you say embarrassment because every single analyst has said this is a good deal
This x 100. I've yet to see an intelligent basketball analyst kill the deal for the Knicks. The ones who are killing the deal for the Knicks are the guys who make a living off of quick, surface-level, loud, exaggerated statements and the NY media who would kill anything they did including signing KP to a max because 1) they hate Dolan and 2) they know that their best shot at getting eyeballs on their dying papers is over-the-top negativity.
Well, for one thing, he's been a Knicks executive for almost the entire period of abject failure and seems to have employment for life for no apparent reason. I think there's plenty of reason to question how much authority Perry actually has when Dolan's longtime lackey is still in a position of power.
You can say he's not in charge, or he doesn't have that much impact - but he's there, despite a horrifyingly bad track record. There's really no reason or excuse for it, and the team continues to suck.
Yeah regardless if you like the move or not, or if it even works out or not; this move looks far more as Perry trying to fix things as he sees it than Mills handling it.
no
Knicks fans would then be pissed we didn't trade him when we could.
At the end of the day, if he's not gonna sign, you have to trade him. I'm not sure they got the best deal they could have, but if you look back, it seems he really was unhappy here and wasn't gonna sign. So, bye. Dallas can take the risk of signing him to a max deal and hoping he stays healthy.
The odds of an oft-injured player staying healthy are not that great, especially when you consider the number of injuries he has had for his age, I think it's the right move.
Let's get real.
Tried to repeatedly trade him. Publicly shit on him. Gave him 4 coaches in 3 seasons and surrounded him with bad players. Lied about his rehab and condition. But aside from that they treated him great.
And you can think whatever you want, Steve Mills is president and above Perry. And Perry is a first time GM. Boggles my mind how people have such faith in these 2.
You are a scumbag.
What hurts is that amid all the chaos Porzingis and the tank seemed to be the moves they had finally gotten right. Now it's down to the tank and free agency. Two big ifs.
What bothers me about the idea of Durant and Irving: Durant is 31 years old when next season starts, and he's got a lot of mileage. And Irving has been injured quite often in previous years. Betting the future on those two, if they come at all, comes with its own set of risks.
Huge risk no doubt but huge reward also. As a Knick fan I'll take that.
You can say he's not in charge, or he doesn't have that much impact - but he's there, despite a horrifyingly bad track record. There's really no reason or excuse for it, and the team continues to suck.
What exactly is his "deeply horrifying track record"? Prior to returning to the Knicks in 2013, Mills was on the business side of MSG. He had nothing to do with personnel moves. Then months into being re-hired by them but this time on the basketball side, they brought in Phil Jackson to be his boss who clearly the one pulling the strings and making all the decisions. Sure, he made the decision to sign Hardaway to that albatross contract which was a terrible decision but it's literally the only impactful decision Mills has ever really made that effects the Knicks personnel.
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What did they do to him?
Let's get real.
Tried to repeatedly trade him. Publicly shit on him. Gave him 4 coaches in 3 seasons and surrounded him with bad players. Lied about his rehab and condition. But aside from that they treated him great.
And you can think whatever you want, Steve Mills is president and above Perry. And Perry is a first time GM. Boggles my mind how people have such faith in these 2.
One, I have not seen anybody support Mills so I am not sure what you are talking about. Two, I have not seen anybody praise Perry. What I have said is I give him the benefit of the doubt as of now. Since he has been here he has brought in guys like Knox, Robinson, and Trier. He brought in Fis. He dumped both Hardaway and Lee while getting DSJ and 2 firsts. Yes, it took Porzingis to do it but being realistic Porzingis was trying to hold us hostage. This trade is incomplete until we see what happens with these max slots. So, I for one have said he deserves the benefit of the doubt here. Nobody is verbally blowing the guy.
Isn't he the guy who advised Dolan to hire Isiah?
Looking forward to it too.
What hurts is that amid all the chaos Porzingis and the tank seemed to be the moves they had finally gotten right. Now it's down to the tank and free agency. Two big ifs.
What bothers me about the idea of Durant and Irving: Durant is 31 years old when next season starts, and he's got a lot of mileage. And Irving has been injured quite often in previous years. Betting the future on those two, if they come at all, comes with its own set of risks.
It's a risk for sure but Durant is the type of player who I think will age well given his length for defensive purposes and his shooting ability. It's not like his game is solely breaking down the defense and relying on his athleticism to do so. While not the same archetype, Nowitzki for example had some of his best years from ages 31-34 including leading the Mavs to a title.
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What exactly is his "deeply horrifying track record"?
Isn't he the guy who advised Dolan to hire Isiah?
no that was magic
Most end up with career-ending foot injuries. Smits, Sabonis, Eaton, Yao Ming, Shaun Bradley.
The list of players 7'2" and taller who have had significant injuries is much longer than the list of those who haven't.
We don't even need to talk about Muersan and the giganticism part.
With that being said, the timing on this made it right. If Porzingis truly didn't want to be here, you can't go into the off-season with him as your recruiting tool. Plus, what superstar is coming to the Knicks to play with Porzingis, who hasn't been on the court in over a year and has been hampered by nagging injuries prior to the knee.
If the Knicks wait to deal him in the off-season, they miss out on their opportunity at two max contracts, and they sell him for $0.75 on the $1.00.
Bottom line is, I hate the way today's NBA is constructed, thanks to LeBron and his manipulative past. The players have too much leverage, and hold the teams (and fans) hostage. I've come to grips with this, for now, but I'm still very skeptical on this ending well for the Knicks.
Good post. I tend to agree it will not end well. But they have put themselves in a position where they can sign two max free agents, which gives them a shot at KD/Kyrie or some other combo with Leonard.
If those guys don't want to come to NY, what can they do? Nobody was coming to NY for a chance to pair with an injured KP. A lot of Knicks fans grossly overestimate the appeal of Porzingas. He was a top 20 player. Not a top five player. Throw in the injury concerns and he was not much of an inducement.
Unlike Donnie, Perry did not mortgage the future to clear cap space. In fact, he added two first round picks. So, the Knicks can continue their rebuild if they miss out on elite FA.
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What exactly is his "deeply horrifying track record"?
Isn't he the guy who advised Dolan to hire Isiah?
He may have given his stamp of approval but it was Magic Johnson who initially suggested the Knicks hire Isiah. Either way, while a dumb decision that crippled the franchise for a long time, it's not a player personnel move and nobody is holding that poor judgement against Magic, are they?
Worst tank EVER.
1. How quickly this all transpired. If happened over a longer period of time and it ended up being the best deal available, it would have been easier to digest. It all came out before reports that they talked with NOLA, and before whatever else is about to come out.
2. Porzingis is the first potential franchise superstar player the Knicks have drafted since Ewing. There was so much promise there. And they shipped him off to clear their own bad contracts that were bad at the time of the signing and bring back a player they passed over in the draft and still hasn't shown potential to be a winner.
I realize that this regime isn't the ones that made those decisions, but there is still enough overlap. And when you have the same rotten organization making incompetent decisions for decades, I think it's fair for the fans to treat the organization with that same owner as a continuous entity.
Yes, the Knicks can bring in two max contracts now. But if you believed that KP was worth a max contract (I was very concerned), then you already had that player on the roster and could still figure out a way to bring in another max player, while getting a top draft pick.
I like teams swinging for the fences. But the Knicks as an organization have shown a horrific track record of decision-making, so it's hard to get too excited.
Most end up with career-ending foot injuries. Smits, Sabonis, Eaton, Yao Ming, Shaun Bradley.
The list of players 7'2" and taller who have had significant injuries is much longer than the list of those who haven't.
We don't even need to talk about Muersan and the giganticism part.
This is true but the other thing I hardly ever see discussed is the fact that every single year KP has shown clear regression as the season wore on. He looked gassed on a nightly basis and became less effective as a result. Of course, this was usually the point in time in which fans lost interest in the Knicks so it's not a surprise that many didn't notice but if your conditioning isn't up to snuff by your third season in the NBA, we have to wonder if it has more to do with his frame than anything else. How can a guy like that carry a team?
That's why the Knicks are so uniquely pathetic - they weren't trying to tank until now. They were trying to win and failing utterly and completely.
This is my main concern the rest of the way too.
1. How quickly this all transpired. If happened over a longer period of time and it ended up being the best deal available, it would have been easier to digest. It all came out before reports that they talked with NOLA, and before whatever else is about to come out.
2. Porzingis is the first potential franchise superstar player the Knicks have drafted since Ewing. There was so much promise there. And they shipped him off to clear their own bad contracts that were bad at the time of the signing and bring back a player they passed over in the draft and still hasn't shown potential to be a winner.
I realize that this regime isn't the ones that made those decisions, but there is still enough overlap. And when you have the same rotten organization making incompetent decisions for decades, I think it's fair for the fans to treat the organization with that same owner as a continuous entity.
Yes, the Knicks can bring in two max contracts now. But if you believed that KP was worth a max contract (I was very concerned), then you already had that player on the roster and could still figure out a way to bring in another max player, while getting a top draft pick.
I like teams swinging for the fences. But the Knicks as an organization have shown a horrific track record of decision-making, so it's hard to get too excited.
Just because you think this trade happened fast doesn't mean it did. Supposedly he was shopped for awhile as a backup plan if he wasn't going to sign long term with us. When he made that clear and said he wanted to be traded that was just the tipping point.
Yes, you have a right to hate this franchise. They have doje nothing but disappoint. That is understandable and logical.
That's a good point.
Exactly. That was the total nightmare scenario and Knicks avoided it.
And quite honestly, I don't think they could have gotten more than a decent young player with two cheap years left, a totally unprotected 1st, and a 1st protected for 1-10. That's more than the Knicks gave up for Melo imo.
They'll probably hold onto them until the deadline and see if they can get an asset or two in return before buying them out. I don't think any of those guys are good enough to change the Knicks' fortunes right now though. I do wonder if they want to hold onto Jordan as someone who Robinson can learn from given the similar mold and Jordan's success in the NBA. If he's willing of course.
I like this for the knicks, shows me they learned from the mistakes with Melo.
This is the time for the Knicks to audit themselves and ask if they have the best possible President/GM braintrust available to design this future. They are effectively the new Founding Fathers and will be making franchise-altering decisions.
I have no ability to evaluate Mills but I trust Mills over Dolan because no one is worse than Dolan.
So, effectively, Mills has to take time and really ask if Scott Perry is the best possible architect available. It's not about what Perry has done thus far. It's about right here, right now.
If Steve Mills could have anyone in the world to try and pitch max guys and have the awareness of how to build out the roster, and how to build an analytics department-- who would he hire? If someone is on that list ahead of Scott Perry, I think he owes it to the franchise to inquire.
Because the Knicks were over the cap, they cannot trade Matthews or Jordan together with other players- but they CAN trade them individually and get multiple players/picks back.
For example, the Sixers need wing scoring and a PF. The Knicks could offer Matthews to the Sixers for Chandler and Korkmaz (Chandler for Matthews alone comes up about $750,000 short) and some picks.
Keep in mind that the Sixers "own" the Knicks 2020 and 2021 second round picks. In addition, the Sixers have the Bulls 2019 second rounder. The Knicks could ask for their own picks back, or just aim for the Chicago pick, which will have solid value (that's about where they got Robinson last year).
Another option- Capela is likely out for the majority of the regular season- and may be limited when he returns for Houston. Trading Jordan for Knight and Criss and filler like Gerald Green and picks. Houston is in a dogfight to hols playoff position- they are 6th in the West- with the Jazz, Clippers, Lakers all within 3 games of them- and are only 2 games out of the 4 seed. They have incentive to make a deal.
Houston has all of its 1st rounders going forward. The Knicks already have Houston's 2nd rounder in 2019. Houston probably doesn't mind sending out a 1st since they can safely assume that these aren't difference making picks (at least for Houston). However, the Knicks need to collect assets, so any 1st rounder is valuable.
Along the same lines, the Clippers are in a playoff spot, but are REALLY weak in the paint- and are VERY familiar with Jordan. A trade of Jordan for Gortat, Teodosic and a 2021 1st (the Clips already traded their 2019 1st rounder to Boston) would work as well.
The Lakers are weak in shooting from deep and LeBron is back. Matthews makes sense there in a deal for Rondo and Stephenson (plus a minimum salary filler) and picks. The Lakers have all of their picks except for their 2019 second rounder. Matthews makes sense as an expiring, which won't hinder their FA plans this summer, while still giving them a vet deep threat for the playoffs.
There are other moves that make sense. Kanter is a flawed player who is hard to trade, but Matthews and Jordan may fit the contenders better.
Just because you think this trade happened fast doesn't mean it did. Supposedly he was shopped for awhile as a backup plan if he wasn't going to sign long term with us. When he made that clear and said he wanted to be traded that was just the tipping point.
Yes, you have a right to hate this franchise. They have doje nothing but disappoint. That is understandable and logical.
Right. I'm saying how it all went down to the fans is what makes it a lot harder to digest. Fans were completely blindsided. All they got was "KP wants out" and in the blink of an eye there was a full deal done.
My hope is that the Knicks did exhaustive due diligence to see what they could have gotten back and didn't just capitulate to the first offer that cleared space.
What exactly is "completely on board" with the plan? Did he just have some questions that he wanted answered; like how are you going to build the team around me when were saddled with stiffs like THJ? And what is "no longer wanted to be a part of our group"? The Knicks act like its all KP's fault that this happened, but in the same breathe say they have been seeking a potential trade of him for a while and refused to commit to him fully just a few months ago.
Why do I get the feeling that this meeting was a planned sit down to tell him, look, we have a deal lined up that would trade you to Dallas for cap relief and first round picks; you can either stay and we have to get rid of our remaining assets just to get a swing at a big free agency and hope ping pong balls fall our way, or we can let you go. KP says he doesn't like that plan and then you get the Knicks great spin machine who knows KP has said and done some dumb things in the past so fans are already weary of him. Sure he could have said he wasn't on board with giving up assets without knowing what free agency may lead to; he did play with Carmelo whom the Knicks asked to take a pay cut to help build a team only to see the Knicks give that money saved to Lance Thomas so he rightfully can be weary. And then when given the options on the table he might have said I'd rather be traded, and the spin machine can now say KP didn't want to be a Knick.
Maybe Porzingis was adamant he didn't want to be here, but damn did it seem like the Knicks went into full blown spin control from the second they put out the rumor that KP was requesting a trade yesterday afternoon, to announcing a trade 45 minutes later, all the way through the night of quotes and storyline emerging from all of this. At the end of the day I don't think the haul was really all that bad, dealing Porzingis for essentially 3 first round picks (if they want to deal Smith I am sure they could still get a first for him, Hardaway the first go through netted a first) and 30 mil in additional cap space is way better than these rumored Laker deals for Anthony Davis and may be better than what Boston would give up if they refuse to deal Tatum. I just hate the games that come along with anything this team does.
It did seem like a knee jerk reaction yesterday because it happened so damn fast. But alternately, perhaps the Knicks were just ready for this turn of events and decided to not allow the drama to fester and made the trade and were ready to move on from KP.
If he's not interested in signing a long term contract why would they be?
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that NO wasn't interested in KP? I saw that on ESPN'S or NBATV's bottom line last night.
If he's not interested in signing a long term contract why would they be?
Fair enough but it does indicate (if true) that the Knicks at least tried.
Durant and Irving are pretty much best friends, so maybe that means nothing, maybe it means something, but it just feels like the Knicks know something the rest of us don't.
It sucks that in the modern NBA, it seems a team has to tank for multiple seasons before they have any chance of competing for a title. The Knicks have been putting it off too long.
Those two along with DSJ, plus the subtraction of the losing player that is THJ is absolutely capable of winning just enough games to screw this up. Those guys dont make them a playoff contender, but they are capable of winning some games. You can refuse to believe that if you want, just watch it happen.
He's not good - he won't mess anything up. Nor will Matthews. We are still going to be terrible.
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Looking forward to it too.
Beningo LOVES the trade! Im shocked.
Talking about how they love, more than anything the unprotected 1st coming back.
A heat-check guy like DSJ plus a few expiring role-player guys eager to prove their worth for impending free agency could throw some small but undesirable wrinkles into the lose-a-thon.
Spend the next week trying to trade Jordan/Matthews for even worse players who are also on expiring deals. see if you can get some second round picks, future picks, or other booty for your trouble.
If you have zero luck moving them, buy them out.
He's not good - he won't mess anything up. Nor will Matthews. We are still going to be terrible.
We're still going to be terrible! YAY!
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...want to sign with an epic shit franchise like the New York Knicks?
Several people have given their opinion on this in the thread but I guess easier to just ask again so you can insult the franchise??
Simple answer: it's the Knicks (only pro sports team in the city that gets the entire city behind it) and you get to play in the Garden 41+ times a year....the chance to be the savior of that?? Someone, someday will be the savior .and when it happens they will own the city in a way that no player has.
I didn't think the Knicks franchise could dive any lower; that is, until yesterday.
This wild, crazy trade is ENITRELY predicated on NBA Superstar free agents flocking to sign with them.
So, two questions for Knicks fans:
(1) How did that Melo thing turn out besides that one 54-win season?
(2) What if Kevin Durant, Kyrie Irving and/or Kemba Walker decide they will not step into the MSG shit-hole?
We finally got him! Add him to LONG list of ex-stars/big names to end up here for a short time over the last 20 years: Penny, Jalen Rose, Derrick Rose, Kidd, Bibby, Baron Davis, Antonio Davis, Steve Francis, McGrady, Larry Hughes...
Very strange.
Whats the most you can expect for any of these guys in a trade, second rounders? Can they still trade for trade exemptions, or theyd expire at the deadline? Anyway to trade Noahs contract still after buyout, or stuck with it?
Just wondering, if they couldnt get Irving/Durant this year. Would it make sense to use the cap money to absorb other teams contracts for the year in exchange for firsts? Tank one more year, get another top five pick, then use the cap money the following year?
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In comment 14283110 M.S. said:
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...want to sign with an epic shit franchise like the New York Knicks?
Several people have given their opinion on this in the thread but I guess easier to just ask again so you can insult the franchise??
Simple answer: it's the Knicks (only pro sports team in the city that gets the entire city behind it) and you get to play in the Garden 41+ times a year....the chance to be the savior of that?? Someone, someday will be the savior .and when it happens they will own the city in a way that no player has.
I didn't think the Knicks franchise could dive any lower; that is, until yesterday.
This wild, crazy trade is ENITRELY predicated on NBA Superstar free agents flocking to sign with them.
So, two questions for Knicks fans:
(1) How did that Melo thing turn out besides that one 54-win season?
(2) What if Kevin Durant, Kyrie Irving and/or Kemba Walker decide they will not step into the MSG shit-hole?
You should listen to evan roberts explain what you do since his team did the exact thing to turn it around. Stop fucking whining already. If you dont wanna root for the knicks anymore dont. If/when they sign Durant and another guy, dont come running back and being excited.
The overreactions over a guy who barely plays has been hilarious
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for as many assets as you can then flip all these picks and potentially DSJ for Anthony Davis (as long as he commits to the Knicks). Get your one superstar this year and sign one in the offseason.
Whats the most you can expect for any of these guys in a trade, second rounders? Can they still trade for trade exemptions, or theyd expire at the deadline? Anyway to trade Noahs contract still after buyout, or stuck with it?
Who cares. Get anything. 2nd round picks are fine. Anything we can do to sweeten the pot for AD. We shouldn't be playing any of them to keep the tank going and you gotta figure a guy averaging 11 and 13 with a PER of 18 has gotta get you something from a potential contender.
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Jordan probably won't even play that much.
He's not good - he won't mess anything up. Nor will Matthews. We are still going to be terrible.
We're still going to be terrible! YAY!
For this year, that needs to be priority. It's the only way out of this mess.
Yes to the top 4 picks but it also increases our chances of getting worse picks. The team with the worst record can finish no worse than 5th, second worst 6th, and so on so that worst record is kind of important.
Because the Knicks were over the cap, they cannot trade Matthews or Jordan together with other players- but they CAN trade them individually and get multiple players/picks back.
For example, the Sixers need wing scoring and a PF. The Knicks could offer Matthews to the Sixers for Chandler and Korkmaz (Chandler for Matthews alone comes up about $750,000 short) and some picks.
Keep in mind that the Sixers "own" the Knicks 2020 and 2021 second round picks. In addition, the Sixers have the Bulls 2019 second rounder. The Knicks could ask for their own picks back, or just aim for the Chicago pick, which will have solid value (that's about where they got Robinson last year).
Another option- Capela is likely out for the majority of the regular season- and may be limited when he returns for Houston. Trading Jordan for Knight and Criss and filler like Gerald Green and picks. Houston is in a dogfight to hols playoff position- they are 6th in the West- with the Jazz, Clippers, Lakers all within 3 games of them- and are only 2 games out of the 4 seed. They have incentive to make a deal.
Houston has all of its 1st rounders going forward. The Knicks already have Houston's 2nd rounder in 2019. Houston probably doesn't mind sending out a 1st since they can safely assume that these aren't difference making picks (at least for Houston). However, the Knicks need to collect assets, so any 1st rounder is valuable.
Along the same lines, the Clippers are in a playoff spot, but are REALLY weak in the paint- and are VERY familiar with Jordan. A trade of Jordan for Gortat, Teodosic and a 2021 1st (the Clips already traded their 2019 1st rounder to Boston) would work as well.
The Lakers are weak in shooting from deep and LeBron is back. Matthews makes sense there in a deal for Rondo and Stephenson (plus a minimum salary filler) and picks. The Lakers have all of their picks except for their 2019 second rounder. Matthews makes sense as an expiring, which won't hinder their FA plans this summer, while still giving them a vet deep threat for the playoffs.
There are other moves that make sense. Kanter is a flawed player who is hard to trade, but Matthews and Jordan may fit the contenders better.
Good post, although we've established here on BBI that Brandon Knight has another year on his deal (ESPN trade machine is wrong).
Obviously, it is a risk, but I'd be pretty sure they signalled they have 2 max contract slots open knowing there's going to be signings.
They wont go 0-5.
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In comment 14283110 M.S. said:
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...want to sign with an epic shit franchise like the New York Knicks?
Several people have given their opinion on this in the thread but I guess easier to just ask again so you can insult the franchise??
Simple answer: it's the Knicks (only pro sports team in the city that gets the entire city behind it) and you get to play in the Garden 41+ times a year....the chance to be the savior of that?? Someone, someday will be the savior .and when it happens they will own the city in a way that no player has.
I didn't think the Knicks franchise could dive any lower; that is, until yesterday.
This wild, crazy trade is ENITRELY predicated on NBA Superstar free agents flocking to sign with them.
So, two questions for Knicks fans:
(1) How did that Melo thing turn out besides that one 54-win season?
(2) What if Kevin Durant, Kyrie Irving and/or Kemba Walker decide they will not step into the MSG shit-hole?
The abject failure that was the Melo era had little to do with Melo himself. For one, they gutted their draft currency for a long time with the deals to move their big contracts and then Melo. More importantly, the key mistake there was picking up Billups' option and then amnestying him once Tyson Chandler became available. They knew the risk that was Amare's knees and of course shortly thereafter he was never the same player again. The amnesty was their get out of jail free card they could've kept in their back pockets but didn't. I know for a fact from a former GM who was active at the time that it was hardly a secret that Chris Paul was going to sign with the Knicks but they didn't have the cap space because of that one really dumb move. Not only could they have paired Melo with Paul but they would've had room for another big contract as well. That's at least a title contender, especially in the NBA back then. On the surface this looks a lot like where we were back then but in reality, it's quite different.
Yeah they could potentially win a game here or there, but I don't think it's as big a concern as some may think.
So, two questions for Knicks fans:
(1) How did that Melo thing turn out besides that one 54-win season?
(2) What if Kevin Durant, Kyrie Irving and/or Kemba Walker decide they will not step into the MSG shit-hole?
1) They had to strip the entire roster just to get melo here. That wouldn't be the case now.
2) If they don't, they still have their draft picks, they still have a top 3 pick this year, and they still have their young players BECAUSE they didn't strip the entire roster to trade for a star just like they did for Melo.
Kyrie has already said he would to play for Knicks some day. KD is known to like New York as a city.
In strictly basketball terms, it does not necessarily make sense for either to come here because of the lack of talent. That's why I think Zion is important. Whether they sign those guys could come down to ping pong balls.
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So, two questions for Knicks fans:
(1) How did that Melo thing turn out besides that one 54-win season?
(2) What if Kevin Durant, Kyrie Irving and/or Kemba Walker decide they will not step into the MSG shit-hole?
1) They had to strip the entire roster just to get melo here. That wouldn't be the case now.
2) If they don't, they still have their draft picks, they still have a top 3 pick this year, and they still have their young players BECAUSE they didn't strip the entire roster to trade for a star just like they did for Melo.
What do you mean they have a top 3 pick this year? As of right now the best you can say is we have a top 5 pick. If we move up in the standings that 5 will increase.
Verified account
@NBADraftWass
Knicks upcoming draft picks:
2019: Top-4 overall pick + 2nd rd via ORL, CLE or HOU
2020: NYK 1st + CHA 2nd
2021: NYK 1st + DAL 1st (unprotected) + CHA 2nd
2022: NYK 1st + NYK 2nd
2023: NYK 1st + DAL 1st (protected 1-10) + NYK 2nd
Verified account
@NBADraftWass
Knicks upcoming draft picks:
2019: Top-4 overall pick + 2nd rd via ORL, CLE or HOU
2020: NYK 1st + CHA 2nd
2021: NYK 1st + DAL 1st (unprotected) + CHA 2nd
2022: NYK 1st + NYK 2nd
2023: NYK 1st + DAL 1st (protected 1-10) + NYK 2nd
We don't have a top 4 pick right now. We have a top 5 pick currently.
We now have a surplus of draft picks, and abundance of cap space, and a group of young players would can be developed or easily traded if the right deal comes along. Every single avenue to building a contender is available to us.
Now, my gripes...
Do I think this front office can convince two stars to come here? I'd put the chances at about 10 percent.
I have no faith whatsoever in Steve Mills. He's a joke. Alan Hahn was adamant on the Michael Kay Show yesterday that Scott Perry is steering the ship, and I hope he's right.
Even if yesterday's trade was the prudent thing to do, we still come across as dysfunctional. I didn't pay much attention to the Noah stretch provision or Kanter's clown act as evidence that the Knicks were still a mess, but failing to repair the relationship with KP is troubling, though KP and his idiot brother take their share of that blame.
The good news is this summer will bring clarity. If we sign two impact players to go along with our high draft pick, we're on a path to immediate contention. If we strike out on the top guys and resist the urge to splurge on second- and third-tier guys, we're on a slower path to contention through the draft, but still acceptable. If we overpay guys like Tobias Harris or Kemba Walker, we know we're staying in no man's land probably for the rest of our lives, or Jim Dolan's life.
Everyone says things like that. Virtually no one actually means it when they have to face the fact that playing for the Knicks meaning playing for their clown show organization.
As old as you hoping someone gets intentionally injured?
The first way you can tell this trade was the right decision? The Boston Celtics and all their fans almost certainly hated it. Ditto for the Golden State Warriors. The Knicks began Thursday without enough cap space to sign Kevin Durant, and by Thursday afternoon they had $74.6 million to spend this summerenough space to sign both Durant and an additional superstar on a max contract. They also have Kevin Knox, Frank Ntilikina, Dennis Smith, Jr., and seven firstround picks over the next five yearsthose are trade assets for a third star.
Link - ( New Window )
Then they either get one of the following two years' Dallas first round picks top 10 protected. If they haven't gotten one of those picks by 2025, it turns into a second rounder in 2025.
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So what happens if Dallas has a top 10 pick that year? They get to keep it and the Knicks get nothing?
Then they either get one of the following two years' Dallas first round picks top 10 protected. If they haven't gotten one of those picks by 2025, it turns into a second rounder in 2025.
I'm much more curious what happens to the 2021 unprotected pick if the Mavs keep their 2019 pick instead of having to trade to Atlanta...
Link - ( New Window )
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Kyrie has already said he would to play for Knicks some day. KD is known to like New York as a city.
Everyone says things like that. Virtually no one actually means it when they have to face the fact that playing for the Knicks meaning playing for their clown show organization.
I think the clown show is genuine but affects Knicks fans more than NBA players.
Potential free agents are going to look at the current team not the past 20 years of bungling moves.
The biggest negative imo is that veteran players tend not to put much stock in young guys like Knox, who could be good someday but is clearly not yet an NBA starting player. And, really, young undeveloped players are all the Knicks have to offer.
What?
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In comment 14283364 arniefez said:
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So what happens if Dallas has a top 10 pick that year? They get to keep it and the Knicks get nothing?
Then they either get one of the following two years' Dallas first round picks top 10 protected. If they haven't gotten one of those picks by 2025, it turns into a second rounder in 2025.
I'm much more curious what happens to the 2021 unprotected pick if the Mavs keep their 2019 pick instead of having to trade to Atlanta...
The Mavs pick is only top 5 protected. The Mavs could tank the rest of the way and not get a top 5 pick- unless the magic ping pong ball event occurs.
There are 7 teams in the Eastern Conference alone that have a worse record than Dallas- let alone the Grizz and Suns out West who are significantly worse than Dallas.
And if the story is true about his brother dictating who they can or cannot sign then I don't see any point in keeping someone like that. KP was exciting and promising, but he wasn't Lebron James to walk around making demands either. So I hope that story is false and just Knicks spin, because it's actually unbelievable that him and his brother would have the balls to act like that. The guy has never even played a full season.
As I mentioned, IF (big time if though) the Knicks wind up with a top 3 pick, and do in fact land 2 star free agents this summer this could wind up being one of the better and franchise changing trades they will ever make. But that is a big if and the odds are against it.
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Jonathan Wasserman
Verified account
@NBADraftWass
Knicks upcoming draft picks:
2019: Top-4 overall pick + 2nd rd via ORL, CLE or HOU
2020: NYK 1st + CHA 2nd
2021: NYK 1st + DAL 1st (unprotected) + CHA 2nd
2022: NYK 1st + NYK 2nd
2023: NYK 1st + DAL 1st (protected 1-10) + NYK 2nd
We don't have a top 4 pick right now. We have a top 5 pick currently.
Something else to consider- right now the NBA is debating eliminating the "one and done" rule for college players.
Dallas has exactly TWO picks between now and the 2021 1st rounder- both of them 2020 second rounders- one theirs, and one is either GS or Houston's. Short of bringing in some big time FA in 2020 (hard to do with so many contracts covering 2019 and 2020), they will be BAD in 2020. That could be a top 10 pick or better.
HE didn't lose- his team did. Even in college, one great player can't win the game single handedly.
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In comment 14283379 Strahan91 said:
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In comment 14283364 arniefez said:
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So what happens if Dallas has a top 10 pick that year? They get to keep it and the Knicks get nothing?
Then they either get one of the following two years' Dallas first round picks top 10 protected. If they haven't gotten one of those picks by 2025, it turns into a second rounder in 2025.
I'm much more curious what happens to the 2021 unprotected pick if the Mavs keep their 2019 pick instead of having to trade to Atlanta...
The Mavs pick is only top 5 protected. The Mavs could tank the rest of the way and not get a top 5 pick- unless the magic ping pong ball event occurs.
There are 7 teams in the Eastern Conference alone that have a worse record than Dallas- let alone the Grizz and Suns out West who are significantly worse than Dallas.
The Mavs pick is no longer protected for this upcoming year.
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In comment 14283358 Anakim said:
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Jonathan Wasserman
Verified account
@NBADraftWass
Knicks upcoming draft picks:
2019: Top-4 overall pick + 2nd rd via ORL, CLE or HOU
2020: NYK 1st + CHA 2nd
2021: NYK 1st + DAL 1st (unprotected) + CHA 2nd
2022: NYK 1st + NYK 2nd
2023: NYK 1st + DAL 1st (protected 1-10) + NYK 2nd
We don't have a top 4 pick right now. We have a top 5 pick currently.
Something else to consider- right now the NBA is debating eliminating the "one and done" rule for college players.
Dallas has exactly TWO picks between now and the 2021 1st rounder- both of them 2020 second rounders- one theirs, and one is either GS or Houston's. Short of bringing in some big time FA in 2020 (hard to do with so many contracts covering 2019 and 2020), they will be BAD in 2020. That could be a top 10 pick or better.
Personal feelings about the Knicks aside, I think they should eliminate the one and done rule.
We should. He may be an attention whore and a black hole on defense, but he's adept in the paint and a very good rebounder. He's good for a double-double every night. That should count for something.
I suspect that if they could have they already would have. Are there teams can take that cap hit without giving back players who don't have expiring contracts?
That's assuming AD would want to be here.
What if we get the 2nd pick, draft Morant and Durant says he will come here only if we bring Kyrie? You then have Morant, Kyrie and DSJ at the 1
I'm not trading this year's 1st rounder for anything if i'm the Knicks. Try to land AD with the Mavs 1st rounders and our futures and maybe DSJ or Knox. Add Kyrie or Durant in the offseason and work around that.
"2021 first round draft pick to New York
Two years after Dallas conveys a 1st round pick to Atlanta, Dallas' 1st round pick to New York (conveying unprotected in 2021, 2022, 2023, 2024 or 2025) [Dallas-New York, 1/31/2019]
2023 first round draft pick to New York
At least four years after Dallas conveys a 1st round pick to Atlanta, Dallas' 1st round pick to New York protected for selections 1-10 in 2023, 1-10 in 2024 and 1-10 in 2025; if Dallas has not conveyed this 1st round pick to New York (the second of two possible) by 2025, then Dallas will instead convey its 2025 2nd round pick to New York [Dallas-New York, 1/31/2019]"
so according to this, Knicks may not get Mavs' #1 in 2021 if Atlanta doesn't get a #1 from Dallas until next year...
"2021 first round draft pick to New York
Two years after Dallas conveys a 1st round pick to Atlanta, Dallas' 1st round pick to New York (conveying unprotected in 2021, 2022, 2023, 2024 or 2025) [Dallas-New York, 1/31/2019]
2023 first round draft pick to New York
At least four years after Dallas conveys a 1st round pick to Atlanta, Dallas' 1st round pick to New York protected for selections 1-10 in 2023, 1-10 in 2024 and 1-10 in 2025; if Dallas has not conveyed this 1st round pick to New York (the second of two possible) by 2025, then Dallas will instead convey its 2025 2nd round pick to New York [Dallas-New York, 1/31/2019]"
so according to this, Knicks may not get Mavs' #1 in 2021 if Atlanta doesn't get a #1 from Dallas until next year...
What determines when Atlanta gets Dallas's pick?
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from Real GM...
"2021 first round draft pick to New York
Two years after Dallas conveys a 1st round pick to Atlanta, Dallas' 1st round pick to New York (conveying unprotected in 2021, 2022, 2023, 2024 or 2025) [Dallas-New York, 1/31/2019]
2023 first round draft pick to New York
At least four years after Dallas conveys a 1st round pick to Atlanta, Dallas' 1st round pick to New York protected for selections 1-10 in 2023, 1-10 in 2024 and 1-10 in 2025; if Dallas has not conveyed this 1st round pick to New York (the second of two possible) by 2025, then Dallas will instead convey its 2025 2nd round pick to New York [Dallas-New York, 1/31/2019]"
so according to this, Knicks may not get Mavs' #1 in 2021 if Atlanta doesn't get a #1 from Dallas until next year...
What determines when Atlanta gets Dallas's pick?
The link I posted said the Mavs waived their protection in this year's pick.
Albert Nahmad
@AlbertNahmad
This, by default, means that the Mavs will send the Hawks their 2019 first-round pick unconditionally, having removed their top five protections.
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Albert Nahmad
@AlbertNahmad
This, by default, means that the Mavs will send the Hawks their 2019 first-round pick unconditionally, having removed their top five protections.
That looks like Nahmad using logic that takes the Woj/Begley wording as fact.
Other wording of the deal says that the Knicks get the first available Dallas 1st rounder after Hawks get it... Nahmad's logic wouldn't apply to that wording..
Knowing the Knicks lotter luck...we'll have worst record, pick 5th, and Mavs will be one of the teams that leapfrog us, adding insult to injury.
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@IanBegley
The Knicks have heard from at least one team interested in trading for veteran Wes Matthews, league sources told ESPN. If the Knicks dont trade Matthews, hed be a candidate for a buyout. His contract expires after this season.
Anthony Davis is focused on the Lakers as his top preferred destination, sources tell @TheAthleticNBA @WatchStadium. The Knicks are also as a preferred landing spot, and made push to New Orleans with offer around Kristaps Porzingis before the Dallas deal.
9:18 AM - 1 Feb 2019
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@richkleiman
Imma run the Knicks one day
12:30 PM - 21 Feb 2018
The trick will be convincing players that they're not a shit show of an organization.
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In comment 14283321 M.S. said:
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So, two questions for Knicks fans:
(1) How did that Melo thing turn out besides that one 54-win season?
(2) What if Kevin Durant, Kyrie Irving and/or Kemba Walker decide they will not step into the MSG shit-hole?
1) They had to strip the entire roster just to get melo here. That wouldn't be the case now.
2) If they don't, they still have their draft picks, they still have a top 3 pick this year, and they still have their young players BECAUSE they didn't strip the entire roster to trade for a star just like they did for Melo.
What do you mean they have a top 3 pick this year? As of right now the best you can say is we have a top 5 pick. If we move up in the standings that 5 will increase.
Fine, top 5 pick if you want to assume the worst case.
It doesn't change to scope of the argument. This isnt 2010, they're starting from a much higher place than that, when they overpaid to get Melo and had no ability to put a team around him. They have all their picks, are coming off a good draft with some solid looking young players that have a future, and they have the ability to tell their #1 target you can get anyone in the league to come with you.
-overpaid Courtney Lee(1 more year at $12 Mil)
-overpaid & zero defense chucker Tim Hardaway Jr.(1 more year at $18 Mil PLUS a player option for another year at $18 Mil!)
-injury prone KP who hasn't played in like a year coming off a torn ACL who also has a knucklehead of a brother-agent
If you're a Mavs fan, you're hoping against hope that KP not only comes back 100% healthy, but manages to stay healthy going forward at his height and turns into Dirk 2.0. It's a huge swing for the fences for Dallas as well. I just don't think it's very likely to pan out.
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In comment 14283348 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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In comment 14283321 M.S. said:
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So, two questions for Knicks fans:
(1) How did that Melo thing turn out besides that one 54-win season?
(2) What if Kevin Durant, Kyrie Irving and/or Kemba Walker decide they will not step into the MSG shit-hole?
1) They had to strip the entire roster just to get melo here. That wouldn't be the case now.
2) If they don't, they still have their draft picks, they still have a top 3 pick this year, and they still have their young players BECAUSE they didn't strip the entire roster to trade for a star just like they did for Melo.
What do you mean they have a top 3 pick this year? As of right now the best you can say is we have a top 5 pick. If we move up in the standings that 5 will increase.
Fine, top 5 pick if you want to assume the worst case.
It doesn't change to scope of the argument. This isnt 2010, they're starting from a much higher place than that, when they overpaid to get Melo and had no ability to put a team around him. They have all their picks, are coming off a good draft with some solid looking young players that have a future, and they have the ability to tell their #1 target you can get anyone in the league to come with you.
I agree with your post. I am just correcting the top 3 part. There is a 52% chance we get the 5th pick. That is more likely then getting the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th pick combined.
Yes, this is as much a gamble for the Mavs as it is for the Knicks - maybe more so. If the Knicks were the ones giving up first round picks and taking on bad salaries for a talented player with major health risks, we'd be extremely concerned about it. In fact the Knicks have done it before and gotten burned with McDyess. Amare, too - I know he was a FA signing, but we had to give up first rounders in prior trades to clear space to sign him.
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@IanBegley
The Knicks have heard from at least one team interested in trading for veteran Wes Matthews, league sources told ESPN. If the Knicks dont trade Matthews, hed be a candidate for a buyout. His contract expires after this season.
Give me all of your 2nd round picks!!!!!!!!!!!!
Not sure I'd rush to buyout. They don't need the money or the roster spot.
So I can see why Knicks would say, no I protect this years pick so we guarantee get that pick in 2021. But how does that help the Knicks, only guarantees them a year, but helps Atl since it unlocks the top five protection. Dallas wouldnt want to unprotected it, unless it makes or breaks the Knicks trade. Again, why would it make or break the Knicks trade for the Knicks to guarantee the year?
So, connecting th dots, I dont expect it, but wouldnt be shocked if it comes out the KNICKS got the unprotected pick this year if its top 5, Atl gets it if its not top five. Knicks get the 2021 pick if Atl gets this years, Atl gets 2021 pick UNPRTECTED if Knicks get this years pick.
Not sure I'd rush to buyout. They don't need the money or the roster spot.
That is very tempting.
Not sure I'd rush to buyout. They don't need the money or the roster spot.
But he's a FA so if they felt that way they could bring him back next year. What's the advantage of keeping him?
But if we trade for AD first then can we sign 2 max guys? I don't think so.
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to be a good team relatively soon.
Not sure I'd rush to buyout. They don't need the money or the roster spot.
But he's a FA so if they felt that way they could bring him back next year. What's the advantage of keeping him?
My bad, thought he had another year to go.
Salaries don't have to match because the Knicks are under the cap. We would have enough cap space to trade him just for picks alone, if we wanted to and that's what NOP wanted.
Yeah I read a few people on reddit today who are considered some of the go to posters for the NBA cap over at /r/nba and they basically echoed this. They seem to think this is a comprehensive plan by the Knicks in trying to set themselves up for getting Durant, Kyrie, and AD and that it is entirely possible this can be accomplished. They don't think this was kneejerk at all and might be looked back upon as genius if everythign falls into place. We'll see I guess.
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Wont need to make salaries match but the picks in straight years Id definitely true. I am in the camp of thinking outside of Tatum, Bostons war chest is vastly overrated. The Memphis pick wont be their til likely 2021 and the clippers and Sac picks will be in the teens in a poor draft this year.
But if we trade for AD first then can we sign 2 max guys? I don't think so.
I believe since you are trading New Orleans back close to equivalent salary we still would have enough cap for 2 more maxes. Its a pretty thrilling scenario actually. if some of the rumors are true the Knicks wouldnt have done this unless they (perhaps through back channels) were pretty confident they are getting 2 of the 3 of KD, Kyrie, or Kawhi.
If they were to somehow pull of a couple big ticket FAs AND AD for a bunch of their extra picks and young guys in Frank, Knox etc....this team might be finally interesting again!
Say:
Thomas 7.5
Frank 4.9
Smith 4.5
Knox 4.4
Mudiay QO is 5.7 (don't know if you need to include him or not)
Keep Trier, Dotson and Robinson because they are 3mill and under.
It may be able to work while signing KD and Kyrie (or Kawhi) and piecing together the rest of the roster with guys who'll come cheap.
I think he will get a max contract.
Seems like a "bunch of high draft picks" is double dipping if you're including guys like Knox and Frank. They have their pick this year for sure, but the 2021 Mavs pick is no guarantee to be a high pick and quite frankly Frank has limited value. We know the Knicks have a high pick this season and their own pick in 2020, + 2 picks in 2021, no guarantee any pick other than this one is "high"
Isnt that offer better than Boston offer if 2019 pick is a top 3 pick. If they have to swap Knox for frank then thats fine as wel.
Hypothetically, yes. New York's path to three superstar players would require signing Durant and Irving first to exhaust the team's cap space, then trading just about everything else to the New Orleans Pelicans to match Davis' $27.1 million salary. The Knicks would have to send back $21.6 million in salary, and as noted earlier that's more than all their currently guaranteed 2019-20 contracts combined.
Realistically, this year's pick would have to be part of any Davis trade, and New York could use the same strategy as the Cleveland Cavaliers did with Andrew Wiggins in 2014 by signing the pick first and subsequently trading him 30 days later when his salary counts for matching purposes.
If the Knicks got the No. 5 pick (which carries a projected starting salary of $6.3 million), a package of the pick, Dotson, Knox, Ntilikina and Smith would just barely be enough to make a legal trade. It's possible an offer like that -- which might also include the future picks New York acquired in the Porzingis deal -- could interest the Pelicans if they don't want to trade Davis to the conference rival L.A. Lakers and the Celtics no longer bid as aggressively because of Irving's departure.
The cap is set at 109 mill for next year.
Let's say you sign Kyrie and KD for an average of 32mil between them. And then you trade Knox,Frank,Thomas and possibly Mudiay with a QO along with 2 first round picks to make it work. AD is locked in at 27 mill for the 19-20 season.
Durant 32
Irving 32
AD 27
Trier 3.5
Robinson 1.6
Dotson 1.6
Minimum salary vet 1.3
Minimum salary 1.3
2nd rounder 835K
2nd rounder 835K
Noah stretch provision 6.5
Putting as at 108.5
At least number wise if the numbers aren't way off, there may be a way to squeeze in 3 guys like Miami did.
That's a great point and if you somehow bring in KD, AD, and Kyrie some decent role players will likely be willing to sign here for the vet min.
They would have never traded him to Miami.
This deal can be hyperanalyzed, but it can't be judged until this summer and how the roster shapes up.
can listen here:
https://tunein.com/radio/987-FM-ESPN-New-York-s22469/
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draft the Knicks turned down an offer of #4 overall, Miami's first in 2018, Miami's 2021 1st and a "young player" per a new report.
They would have never traded him to Miami.
This deal can be hyperanalyzed, but it can't be judged until this summer and how the roster shapes up.
Phoenix had Miami's picks. Suns made the offer.
And Phil coveted Josh Jackson as we know
-Team had concerns about KP not buying into rebuilding process for a while.
-Meeting yesterday confirmed those fears. KP's team expressed desire to move on from Knicks.
-Had been doing due diligence for past couple months on exploring trade options for KP based on change in KP's general attitude as of late.
-Perry directly observed a change in KP's attitude and participation around the team recently
-Even with cap space, Perry says more focused on building with that they have now + this years draft pick, says they're not desperate to put all their eggs in one basket and spend all cap money on players this FA.
Gives you an idea of the price they put on KP, not about Phil Jackson.
What was he supposed to say? Yeah I spoke with X players agent and we are signing 2 top FAs? He played it safe
It NEVER works out for the Knicks.
But if we trade for AD first then can we sign 2 max guys? I don't think so.
Yes because the salary going out (Knox, Frank etc) would equal his 24 million in salary
Hypothetically, yes. New York's path to three superstar players would require signing Durant and Irving first to exhaust the team's cap space, then trading just about everything else to the New Orleans Pelicans to match Davis' $27.1 million salary. The Knicks would have to send back $21.6 million in salary, and as noted earlier that's more than all their currently guaranteed 2019-20 contracts combined.
Realistically, this year's pick would have to be part of any Davis trade, and New York could use the same strategy as the Cleveland Cavaliers did with Andrew Wiggins in 2014 by signing the pick first and subsequently trading him 30 days later when his salary counts for matching purposes.
If the Knicks got the No. 5 pick (which carries a projected starting salary of $6.3 million), a package of the pick, Dotson, Knox, Ntilikina and Smith would just barely be enough to make a legal trade. It's possible an offer like that -- which might also include the future picks New York acquired in the Porzingis deal -- could interest the Pelicans if they don't want to trade Davis to the conference rival L.A. Lakers and the Celtics no longer bid as aggressively because of Irving's departure.
So let's say Knicks wind up with Barrett.
The trade would be Barrett, Knox, DSJr, Robinson, Frank and 4 number one picks for AD. No one is coming close to matching that. It would be a great trade for both teams.
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Could the Knicks trade for Anthony Davis too?
Hypothetically, yes. New York's path to three superstar players would require signing Durant and Irving first to exhaust the team's cap space, then trading just about everything else to the New Orleans Pelicans to match Davis' $27.1 million salary. The Knicks would have to send back $21.6 million in salary, and as noted earlier that's more than all their currently guaranteed 2019-20 contracts combined.
Realistically, this year's pick would have to be part of any Davis trade, and New York could use the same strategy as the Cleveland Cavaliers did with Andrew Wiggins in 2014 by signing the pick first and subsequently trading him 30 days later when his salary counts for matching purposes.
If the Knicks got the No. 5 pick (which carries a projected starting salary of $6.3 million), a package of the pick, Dotson, Knox, Ntilikina and Smith would just barely be enough to make a legal trade. It's possible an offer like that -- which might also include the future picks New York acquired in the Porzingis deal -- could interest the Pelicans if they don't want to trade Davis to the conference rival L.A. Lakers and the Celtics no longer bid as aggressively because of Irving's departure.
So let's say Knicks wind up with Barrett.
The trade would be Barrett, Knox, DSJr, Robinson, Frank and 4 number one picks for AD. No one is coming close to matching that. It would be a great trade for both teams.
you'd have to fill out the rest of the roster with minimum players. Like EVERY single spot on the roster. Doesn't seem realistic.
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Could the Knicks trade for Anthony Davis too?
Hypothetically, yes. New York's path to three superstar players would require signing Durant and Irving first to exhaust the team's cap space, then trading just about everything else to the New Orleans Pelicans to match Davis' $27.1 million salary. The Knicks would have to send back $21.6 million in salary, and as noted earlier that's more than all their currently guaranteed 2019-20 contracts combined.
Realistically, this year's pick would have to be part of any Davis trade, and New York could use the same strategy as the Cleveland Cavaliers did with Andrew Wiggins in 2014 by signing the pick first and subsequently trading him 30 days later when his salary counts for matching purposes.
If the Knicks got the No. 5 pick (which carries a projected starting salary of $6.3 million), a package of the pick, Dotson, Knox, Ntilikina and Smith would just barely be enough to make a legal trade. It's possible an offer like that -- which might also include the future picks New York acquired in the Porzingis deal -- could interest the Pelicans if they don't want to trade Davis to the conference rival L.A. Lakers and the Celtics no longer bid as aggressively because of Irving's departure.
So let's say Knicks wind up with Barrett.
The trade would be Barrett, Knox, DSJr, Robinson, Frank and 4 number one picks for AD. No one is coming close to matching that. It would be a great trade for both teams.
If they can sign to max guys and not give up any of their young assets or picks they would be putting themselves in a strong position for years to come.
It really now all comes down to whether Perry can pull of enticing to legit max guys to sign and also hope they hit it right in this years draft.
Is it possible? Yes but will take some creativity.
Quick answer, it depends.....It is not possible if they acquire AD first prior to signing KD and Kyrie... This is because KD's max is going to be 35% of the cap since he's a 10 year veteran. If we sign 2 max guys with less than 10 years of experience, it is possible to acquire AD right now and have 2 max contracts left in the summer. No matter what, acquiring AD helps with this conversation because he only makes 27 million. Kawhi, Kyrie, Kemba, Butler, Klay are all set to make 30% of the cap. KD is going to make 35% of the cap.
With that said, there are scenarios that are plausable in which the Knicks could afford 3 of these guys. This is because one nice part of having only good contracts left on the cap are that they're all movable, if necessary. The only cap hit not movable is Noah. So, to start, take the projected salary cap number of $109M, subtract the salary committed to Noah's buyout $6,431,667 and LFT's guarantee of $1,000,000.
Step 1) Assumption: 109M Cap
Step 2) Toal Possible Space before Cap Holds = (109M LESS Noah and LFT) = 101,568,333
Step 3) 9 Cap Holds (Est. $838,464/ea) = 7,546,176
Step 4) Total Space for 3 players = 94,022,157
Step 5)
AD Salary 2019 = 27,093,019
Kyrie Salary 2019 = 32,700,00
KD Salary 2019 = 38,150,000
TOTAL SALARY CAP NEEDED TO ACQUIRE ALL 3 = 97,943,019
THEREFORE....
Scenario 1) If they acquire AD first via trade NOW, it would all comes down to if Kyrie and/or Durant want to give up any money. AD is under contract so he can not give up money even if he wants to.
Scenario 2) If they sign Kyrie and KD outright for $70,850,000 first (or any other 2 max cats), they could then retain the following roster:
1) Kyrie & KD + Noahs Cap Hold + LFT guaranteed = 77,281,667
-PLUS-
3) Knox = 4,380,120
4) Smith Jr = 4,463,640
5) Robinson = 1,559,120
6) Ntilikina = 4,855,800
7) Dotson = 1,618,520
8) Trier = 3,551,100
9) 2019 Number 1 Pick (Highest Salary Scenario) - ($6,804,300)
10) 2nd Rnd Pick = Rookie Minimum (838,464)
11) Min Cap Hold = 838,464
12) Min Cap Hold = 838,464
Total Salary Committed = 108,029,659
We could then use any combination of our roster and future picks to trade for stars... even if it means going over the cap. The salaries that we receive must be within 125% + 100,000 of the outgoing salaries. Therefore, if we can retain any of these guys off their current deals for short-term deals and/or good value deals, it would help to meet future salaries via trade. In other words, we would have to exchange $21,594,416 in salaries to acquire AD.
This would require something along the lines of:
2019 1st = 6,804,300
Knox = 4,380,120
Ntilikina = 4,855,800
Trier = 3,551,100
Dotson = 1,618,520
2nd Rnd Pick = 838,464
TOTAL SALARY TRADED: 22,048,304
Final Thoughts
1) Durants 35% salary max makes matters a little more difficult. Opting to sign Kawhi or two guys with less than 10 years of experience would ease financial matters considerably and allow us to retain more of our current young core without HAVING to include them just to match salaries.
2) With that said, even if we are fortunate enough to sign Durant, we could then make a trade for AD happen and retain 1 of the following: DSJ, Knox or 2019 1st round pick. We would also be able to retain Robinson or Dotson.
3) I expect LFT to be included in a deal before the deadline to get his $1,000,000 guarantee off the books.
An example of a roster with 3 max guys would look as follows:
C: Robinson
PF: AD
SF: Durant
SG: Minimum/Dotson
PG: Kyrie
6: Knox, DSJ or 2019 1st Rnd Pick
7) Minimum
8) Minimum
9) Minimum
Alternatively, I could see the Knicks try the following:
C: Robinson
PF: AD
SF: Knox
SG: Klay
PG: Kyrie
6: Dotson or Trier
7: Minimum
8: Minimum
9: Minumum
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I think you offer pelicans the following right now:
Dennis Smith JR
Knox
2019 pick and 2 Dallas picks
Wes Matthews
I think that is better than any offer Boston or lakers can make. Even if Boston offers Tatum. You get an extra year of Knox and you are getting s top 3 pick.
In this scenario knicks essentially trades Porzingis Knox and pick for A Davis.
Knicks should be stock piling picks but trading Vonleh, Mudiay and Mario now.
If Kyrie and KD wont take less for one year then at least you can trade frank and trier in the offseason for picks. I think Robinson has to be kept at all costs. You sign all vet min guys and eventually move them with picks to improve the roster through the season. It will be tight for 2019-2020, but the $9 mil increase in 2020 will help and then you get mid level and mini mid level. Plus 2021 Noah stretch is gone.
Noahs cap hold is listed in like the 4th paragraph under step 2
Even if they finish with worst record, there's a 60% chance it won't be top 3...
AND, if they trade for AD before the deadline, there is no way the tank continues because 1) they will have AD and 2) there is no incentive to tank
they said some were expecting knicks to give 3 firsts
I do think that Perry does see that there are two options this summer: 1. Get 3 max free agents, or 2. Use cap space to acquire more draft capital. Before doing that, our focus until the this year's trading deadline should be on getting as much value as possible on the players with only one year left on their contracts.
Option 2 would mean taking on one to 2 year deals for unprotected draft picks. This would look similar to what the 76ers have done.
Option 1 is preferred and seemingly possible, if not somewhat realistic. This is a mock scenario of option one and how to fill out the roster after we are capped out.
Max free agent route:
1. Renounce all right to free agents
2. Sign one of Kevin Durant, Kawhi Leonard, or Jimmy Butler
3. Sign one of Kyrie Irving or Kemba Walker
4. Resign Wesley Matthews to 2 year, room MLE; Luke Kornet 1 year, minimum.
5. Sign Patrick Beverly, Jerian Grant, David Nwaba, CJ Miles, Thabo Sefolosha, Jeff Green, Luc Rich Mbah A Moute, Kyle O'Quinn all to 1 year minimum deals.
6. Draft 1st round pick player, sign them (after 30 days you can trade a signed draft pick), 2nd round pick sign to 2 way contract.
7. Trade Dennis Smith Jr., Frank Ntilikina, Kevin Knox, Damyeon Dotson, Lance Thomas, 2019 1st round pick, 2020 unprotected 1st round pick to Pelicans for Anthony Davis.
Roster:
PG: Kyrie Irving - Patrick Beverley - Jerian Grant - Kadeem Allen (2way)
SG: Wesley Matthews - Alonzo Trier - David Nwaba
SF: Kevin Durant - C.J. Miles - Thabo Sefolosha
PF: Anthony Davis - Jeff Green - Luc Rich Mbah a Moute - 2nd round pick (2way)
C: Mitchell Robinson - Kyle O'Quinn - Luke Kornet
Team can compete for a championship. By the trade deadline, we can package some 1 year deals and a draft pick for expiring rookie players (ex. Luc Rich Mbah a Moute, Thabo Sefolosha, 2 2nd round picks, and cash for Taurean Prince). This allows us to resign the players to larger contracts in free agency since we would have their bird rights. By 2020 we could have a deep team, with in their prime role players. I really hope that the Knicks can get it done.
Other options/questions:
1.Could we resign either or both Matthews and Jordan with going over the cap? Robinson and Jordan would be a formidable duo at C.
2. Can we actually trade off Noahs stretch money owed?
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This seems like a drunk post.
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I dont get that from the article and quotes. Are you suggesting he should be happy about everything?
If they could pull that off it gives them more ability to sign / keep players to fill out the roster.
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What a whiney little bitch Link - ( New Window )
I dont get that from the article and quotes. Are you suggesting he should be happy about everything?
Happy, no, but a bunch of other guys (Courtney Lee for example) weren't getting playing time and none of them whined about it all the time.
If you want to play more, play better. Do the things the coach wants you to do.
Does he think his incessant complaining is going to garner him a big contract with another team?
I agree. I was just trying to show that the Knicks can put together the best package for AD by a wide margin.
The young players all have to be part of the deal to clear space for ADs contract
So, it really comes down to how many first rounders Knicks include.
But make no mistake, KD, Kylie AD is the ultimate goal. They just need contingencies plans because they cant control whether those guys want to come to NY.
But what I like is Perry is giving the team a chance to build s team that could win multiple championships. Yet, he has a good alternate plan unlike Donnie who put all his eggs in one basket
Kyrie
Dotson
Durant
AD
Mitch
Kornet
Trier
Allen (Who I think has a chance to be a player)
MLE
Then they'll be able to sign 4 vet min guys, whom there will be no shortage of, to fill out the roster. Wouldn't surprise me if DeAndre Jordan found some way to stick around and go ring chasing.
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I would like to get AD but I think that is a severe overpay. The Pelicans have leverage but you dont need to give away every player on the team and four number 1s.
I agree. I was just trying to show that the Knicks can put together the best package for AD by a wide margin.
The young players all have to be part of the deal to clear space for ADs contract
So, it really comes down to how many first rounders Knicks include.
But make no mistake, KD, Kylie AD is the ultimate goal. They just need contingencies plans because they cant control whether those guys want to come to NY.
But what I like is Perry is giving the team a chance to build s team that could win multiple championships. Yet, he has a good alternate plan unlike Donnie who put all his eggs in one basket
If we somehow pull this off all 3 ...and fill out the roster kind of like Miami did when they signed their big 3, we would actually have a legit championship contender next year. When is the last time we could say that???
I think the wild cards (not life or death to championship hopes but will make for a better team) will be holding on to Frank and/or if we can somehow hold on to our 2019 first pick. A team like w/ a big 3 will need defensive stoppers more than scorers. Also could we resign a guy like Jordan and go over the cap?
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In comment 14284014 Oscar said:
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I would like to get AD but I think that is a severe overpay. The Pelicans have leverage but you dont need to give away every player on the team and four number 1s.
I agree. I was just trying to show that the Knicks can put together the best package for AD by a wide margin.
The young players all have to be part of the deal to clear space for ADs contract
So, it really comes down to how many first rounders Knicks include.
But make no mistake, KD, Kylie AD is the ultimate goal. They just need contingencies plans because they cant control whether those guys want to come to NY.
But what I like is Perry is giving the team a chance to build s team that could win multiple championships. Yet, he has a good alternate plan unlike Donnie who put all his eggs in one basket
If we somehow pull this off all 3 ...and fill out the roster kind of like Miami did when they signed their big 3, we would actually have a legit championship contender next year. When is the last time we could say that???
I think the wild cards (not life or death to championship hopes but will make for a better team) will be holding on to Frank and/or if we can somehow hold on to our 2019 first pick. A team like w/ a big 3 will need defensive stoppers more than scorers. Also could we resign a guy like Jordan and go over the cap?
No, they would have to renounce Jordan, but they could ultimately bring him back on the midlevel exception of about 5MM if he would accept that.
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In comment 14284340 Vanzetti said:
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In comment 14284014 Oscar said:
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I would like to get AD but I think that is a severe overpay. The Pelicans have leverage but you dont need to give away every player on the team and four number 1s.
I agree. I was just trying to show that the Knicks can put together the best package for AD by a wide margin.
The young players all have to be part of the deal to clear space for ADs contract
So, it really comes down to how many first rounders Knicks include.
But make no mistake, KD, Kylie AD is the ultimate goal. They just need contingencies plans because they cant control whether those guys want to come to NY.
But what I like is Perry is giving the team a chance to build s team that could win multiple championships. Yet, he has a good alternate plan unlike Donnie who put all his eggs in one basket
If we somehow pull this off all 3 ...and fill out the roster kind of like Miami did when they signed their big 3, we would actually have a legit championship contender next year. When is the last time we could say that???
I think the wild cards (not life or death to championship hopes but will make for a better team) will be holding on to Frank and/or if we can somehow hold on to our 2019 first pick. A team like w/ a big 3 will need defensive stoppers more than scorers. Also could we resign a guy like Jordan and go over the cap?
No, they would have to renounce Jordan, but they could ultimately bring him back on the midlevel exception of about 5MM if he would accept that.
Ah so no 'bird rights' for him then?
Ah so no 'bird rights' for him then?
No bird rights anyways since he signed a one year deal as a FA. They would have his 'non-bird rights' which basically means you can go over the cap to sign him to a deal that's 120% of his current contract annually. The cap hold is huge though so there's no way they don't renounce him.
Kanter is whining cause he wants of the team. He knows he's not the future, and he wants to play. In sir he feels, not playing, will diminish his value.
So do you blame him?
Best player to wear it since Tyson Chandler
KD has a lot of tread wear
With 3 NBA Championship rings w/ GS, is there desire left?
Is this a cash-out make me wealthy rest of life attitude?
How does he handle the cesspool of a presspool (as someone way above put it so well)?
How is he such a lock for value in a max contract where the players around him the next several years will be evolving?
KD has a lot of tread wear
With 3 NBA Championship rings w/ GS, is there desire left?
Is this a cash-out make me wealthy rest of life attitude?
How does he handle the cesspool of a presspool (as someone way above put it so well)?
How is he such a lock for value in a max contract where the players around him the next several years will be evolving?
Because there isn't a player in the league who you couldn't nitpick about giving a max contract to as a FA. Durant is as good a bet as any to be worth every penny. He's the best or second best player in the NBA.
KD has a lot of tread wear
With 3 NBA Championship rings w/ GS, is there desire left?
Is this a cash-out make me wealthy rest of life attitude?
How does he handle the cesspool of a presspool (as someone way above put it so well)?
How is he such a lock for value in a max contract where the players around him the next several years will be evolving?
You don't go to NY to glide off into the sunset.
Also Durant more than most is concerned about the external perception of him.
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those on the non-Greg side of this (i.e., thinking Knicks can nab two key UFAs), isn't there a concern, SHOULDn't there be concerns:
KD has a lot of tread wear
With 3 NBA Championship rings w/ GS, is there desire left?
Is this a cash-out make me wealthy rest of life attitude?
How does he handle the cesspool of a presspool (as someone way above put it so well)?
How is he such a lock for value in a max contract where the players around him the next several years will be evolving?
Because there isn't a player in the league who you couldn't nitpick about giving a max contract to as a FA. Durant is as good a bet as any to be worth every penny. He's the best or second best player in the NBA.
Agreed on the nitpick part. He is the top get in FA with AD via trade probably second. Kawhi would be right there with AD but AD is probably a better fit if you get KD and doesnt have the recurring muscle problems Kawhi does.
KD has a lot of tread wear
With 3 NBA Championship rings w/ GS, is there desire left?
Is this a cash-out make me wealthy rest of life attitude?
How does he handle the cesspool of a presspool (as someone way above put it so well)?
How is he such a lock for value in a max contract where the players around him the next several years will be evolving?
Talk about overanalyzing. Have you not been a fan for the last 50 years or so where the last 20 or so were just beyond horrendous?
If I am not mistaken, KD will be leaving money on the table if he leaves GS. So, him just being about his last payday and having no desire doesn't really make sense. Injuries are a concern but are you going to go after a lesser talented player and give them the max? Makes no sense.
As much as this is about the 2 max guys, it isn't all about the 2 max guys. We have a young core of Robinson, Knox, Frank, Trier, DSJ, Docson, and 7 first round picks over the next 5 years. We are in good shape.
But they don't change KD's age, and hasn't part of this 20-year nightmare of a franchise been a result, in part, of paying guys late in their careers and seeing them not earning it on the court?
Maybe KD is not psychically configured in the way that should concern Perry--maybe he's a slam dunk this way--but to Jon's counter that he is concerned more than most with his image/external perception, is that a good fit here in the Big Apple? A bit of a conundrum: franchise Saviour or 'nitpicking' whether he's been worth it in the NY media.
My original post is not a "j'accuse" but a query.
But they don't change KD's age, and hasn't part of this 20-year nightmare of a franchise been a result, in part, of paying guys late in their careers and seeing them not earning it on the court?
Maybe KD is not psychically configured in the way that should concern Perry--maybe he's a slam dunk this way--but to Jon's counter that he is concerned more than most with his image/external perception, is that a good fit here in the Big Apple? A bit of a conundrum: franchise Saviour or 'nitpicking' whether he's been worth it in the NY media.
My original post is not a "j'accuse" but a query.
Your point is well taken. It isn't the cleanest pairing.
But he's a top 3 player still at the tail end of his prime. He doesn't really get hurt. And it's not like his game is built on crazy athleticism, so it should age pretty well.
As for the media stuff, agreed, it could blow up if shit starts to go bad. But I'd much rather take that chance than not move heaven and earth to get him in the first place.
Question is which came first, chicken or egg, Perry et al. shopping him or KP and his team concluding he would sign a QO at best and then look elsewhere? At this point it doesn't matter, but the answer to that question will fascinate many.
And many will continue to focus on how could KD swap a dream franchise for this one...and how does he cope/perform in that new environment, if it comes to pass? Does Perry indeed have a magic wand big enough to neuter Dolan and Mills?
Question is which came first, chicken or egg, Perry et al. shopping him or KP and his team concluding he would sign a QO at best and then look elsewhere? At this point it doesn't matter, but the answer to that question will fascinate many.
And many will continue to focus on how could KD swap a dream franchise for this one...and how does he cope/perform in that new environment, if it comes to pass? Does Perry indeed have a magic wand big enough to neuter Dolan and Mills?
I was initially outraged/upset but now feel better about things...as this trade has gone lol.
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of near historic proportion on BBI (got to think it rivals even the most contentious Eli threads) was fascinating to go through, from disbelief, denial, rage, outrage, etc. to a more even handed evaluation of the outcomes once it hit home that KP (once unassailable as the Knicks' Saviour) was done with NYKs.
Question is which came first, chicken or egg, Perry et al. shopping him or KP and his team concluding he would sign a QO at best and then look elsewhere? At this point it doesn't matter, but the answer to that question will fascinate many.
And many will continue to focus on how could KD swap a dream franchise for this one...and how does he cope/perform in that new environment, if it comes to pass? Does Perry indeed have a magic wand big enough to neuter Dolan and Mills?
I was initially outraged/upset but now feel better about things...as this trade has gone lol.
Trade = thread. Whoops.
Hilarious.
We can only hope the Pelicans/Davis (and his Dad) keep sticking it to LA and Boston.
This is setting up to be the most wild Knicks offseason ever.
Draft lottery
Potential AD sweepstakes
Potential number1 overall/top draft pick
Courtship of multiple max players
Gonna be fun.
Hilarious.
We can only hope the Pelicans/Davis (and his Dad) keep sticking it to LA and Boston.
This is setting up to be the most wild Knicks offseason ever.
Draft lottery
Potential AD sweepstakes
Potential number1 overall/top draft pick
Courtship of multiple max players
Gonna be fun.
I wonder if Perry talked to the Pelicans about AD and they wanted draft picks more than anything. Remember once the Pelicans trade AD, they are in a total rebuild so they have to acquire as many draft picks as possible. The Knicks can theoretically give the Pelicans 5 first round picks from 2019 to 2023 and 3 first round picks from 2019 to 2021. IMO the Knicks picks, especially this one (which could turn into Zion, RJ or Ja Morant) are more valuable to the Pelicans than 2 or 3 good but not great young Lakers players
And many will continue to focus on how could KD swap a dream franchise for this one...and how does he cope/perform in that new environment, if it comes to pass? Does Perry indeed have a magic wand big enough to neuter Dolan and Mills?
It might be a dream franchise to you or I, but it doesn't mean it was for him.
He's close friends with Luka Doncic, and Dirk has been something of a mentor for KP since they met. I think he's fine.
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And many will continue to focus on how could KD swap a dream franchise for this one...and how does he cope/perform in that new environment, if it comes to pass? Does Perry indeed have a magic wand big enough to neuter Dolan and Mills?
It might be a dream franchise to you or I, but it doesn't mean it was for him.
He's close friends with Luka Doncic, and Dirk has been something of a mentor for KP since they met. I think he's fine.
He was talking about KD, not KP
Agreed. You need some assets to build fill out the team and for depth.
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I would like to get AD but I think that is a severe overpay. The Pelicans have leverage but you dont need to give away every player on the team and four number 1s.
Agreed. You need some assets to build fill out the team and for depth.
If you get KD, AD, Kyrie...no other "assets" needed for 4 years. You can fill that roster with the right imperfect 2nd rounders and vet minimums and be a legit eastern conference contender.
The way he's behaved post-trade certainly makes me feel a lot better about the deal. He's a petulant child who continues to bad mouth the organization after he's dealt. Not to mention, his first public message post trade was a gif of him and Luka, not thanking the fans or acting in anyway with class.
The way he's behaved post-trade certainly makes me feel a lot better about the deal. He's a petulant child who continues to bad mouth the organization after he's dealt. Not to mention, his first public message post trade was a gif of him and Luka, not thanking the fans or acting in anyway with class.
Some people dont grow out of being a dick. Sometimes they are just a dick. KP is one of them and I hope his leg falls off.
It was clear that the Knicks were never going to be a top team with KP because I dont think that KP was going to draw any star players on his own. This is a risky move but one that could really pay off. And if now, what are we really losing? More disappointment?
For all the pissing and moaning about this shitty franchise and having no shot at big FAs because they all think the Knicks are a joke...star players seem to talk pretty highly about playing in and against NY [Knicks]. And they all seem to want to get their garden moment. I think the image of the Knicks/MSG is fine among players. The NBA is different these days and we just need to be in the right situation for them to come. We were almost there in 2010 but not quite. Hopefully we get there this time.
The way he's behaved post-trade certainly makes me feel a lot better about the deal. He's a petulant child who continues to bad mouth the organization after he's dealt. Not to mention, his first public message post trade was a gif of him and Luka, not thanking the fans or acting in anyway with class.
Stay woke to what? the only 2 people that thought this team was doing anything other than tanking was him and kanter...
Look at lee he knew what this was and never complained once about sitting..
KP is delusional and now the dailynews and howard beck are ripping the knicks because they did kp wrong...
first off how did the knicksrip him? they said he wanted out so they traded him..
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"The city deserves better than that.... My suggestion for Knicks fans is to STAY WOKE!! Peace,"
The way he's behaved post-trade certainly makes me feel a lot better about the deal. He's a petulant child who continues to bad mouth the organization after he's dealt. Not to mention, his first public message post trade was a gif of him and Luka, not thanking the fans or acting in anyway with class.
Stay woke to what? the only 2 people that thought this team was doing anything other than tanking was him and kanter...
Look at lee he knew what this was and never complained once about sitting..
KP is delusional and now the dailynews and howard beck are ripping the knicks because they did kp wrong...
first off how did the knicksrip him? they said he wanted out so they traded him..
I believe he is saying keep your eyes open that stuff is really going on behind the scenes. This was a step put in motion for these guys (KD etc.) to come here.
funny mills and fizdale both said how they felt they had great talks with kp after the trade
But are we really now going off on kp and defending the franchise? What have the Knicks done In recent memory that would give them the benefit of doubt with handlings of things?
But are we really now going off on kp and defending the franchise? What have the Knicks done In recent memory that would give them the benefit of doubt with handlings of things?
Agree 100% on your point about the franchise. Cant fully trust anything they do or say.
Amazingly, there are people on BBI more critical if the Giants than thru are the Knicks. Absolutely baffling.
Completely agree. I dislike Bondy as much as anybody, but he only became an Isola-level troll AFTER the Knicks starting bannng him. He was irritating but harmless beforehand.
Bondy is a troll- trolled the nets until they started winning - then got barred from Knicks and 50 percent of what he says is to troll- the other half I agree with
But are we really now going off on kp and defending the franchise? What have the Knicks done In recent memory that would give them the benefit of doubt with handlings of things?
Wait, KP continues to act like a child (seems like a nice guy) while the FO looks to be finally on the right track...but we are supposed to give KP the benefit of the doubt on his way out while he continues to throw shade at the team? Is that your take?
Please tell me where the Knicks have wronged KP at all over his time here? I mean, we obviously dont know everything that happens behind the scenes but normally wed hear something. Especially with how slimy and dirty the NY media is. What have the Knicks done to KP so bad that makes it okay to act like an entitled jerk who undermines the team? And then to demand a trade like hes some superstar when he hasnt even touched the court in a year?
Sorry, Im not going kill the team when the FO seems to be doing the right things while the immature player barks on the way out.
Amazingly, there are people on BBI more critical if the Giants than thru are the Knicks. Absolutely baffling.
This does have a different feel to it then prior years for the Knicks (like the Miami stuff was going on behind the scenes well ahead of it coming together) but yes we need to reserve judgement until it actually happens.
The Daily News is toilet paper, and when they actually employed writers they were shit stirring dirt bags. It doesnt bother me at all that they were blocked media access.
It doesnt look good but i can see why the new york sports teams are sick of the daily news
All due respect... it's February. Unless he's a moron he knows he will have to deal with these questions. I'd guess this is 100% unrelated.
It doesnt look good but i can see why the new york sports teams are sick of the daily news
Exactly. They act like the NYDN is Woodward and Bernstein doing the world some big public service. Hes a hack for a tabloid covering a basketball team.
But are we really now going off on kp and defending the franchise? What have the Knicks done In recent memory that would give them the benefit of doubt with handlings of things?
Theres more to the story. Its not really a choose your side deal. I loosely know a player who was on the Knicks a couple of years ago (friend of a friend type deal) who said that KP changed a lot from the guy he was when he came to the team. He would argue with and not listen to coaches and thought he knew better. He was also partying more and putting in less work in the game. This guy told me that the former had a lot to do with Melos influence as they were close and the latter with him hanging out with Shumpert and JR early on. I thought with those guys gone and the new regime hed move past that and grow into his role as the leader of the team but thats clearly not what happened.
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Seemed like a noce guy- seemed like issues with the franchise started quite some time ago- his brother seems like a pain in the ass
But are we really now going off on kp and defending the franchise? What have the Knicks done In recent memory that would give them the benefit of doubt with handlings of things?
Theres more to the story. Its not really a choose your side deal. I loosely know a player who was on the Knicks a couple of years ago (friend of a friend type deal) who said that KP changed a lot from the guy he was when he came to the team. He would argue with and not listen to coaches and thought he knew better. He was also partying more and putting in less work in the game. This guy told me that the former had a lot to do with Melos influence as they were close and the latter with him hanging out with Shumpert and JR early on. I thought with those guys gone and the new regime hed move past that and grow into his role as the leader of the team but thats clearly not what happened.
That was poorly worded. The guys on the team then were heavily influenced by Shumpert and Smith and it rubbed off on KP was my point
Ok Kristaps, this is a great way to use the term in regards to a team you feuded with that wanted you to sit out more games to ensure you were healed and try to get you a better player to play with next year.
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Seemed like a noce guy- seemed like issues with the franchise started quite some time ago- his brother seems like a pain in the ass
But are we really now going off on kp and defending the franchise? What have the Knicks done In recent memory that would give them the benefit of doubt with handlings of things?
Theres more to the story. Its not really a choose your side deal. I loosely know a player who was on the Knicks a couple of years ago (friend of a friend type deal) who said that KP changed a lot from the guy he was when he came to the team. He would argue with and not listen to coaches and thought he knew better. He was also partying more and putting in less work in the game. This guy told me that the former had a lot to do with Melos influence as they were close and the latter with him hanging out with Shumpert and JR early on. I thought with those guys gone and the new regime hed move past that and grow into his role as the leader of the team but thats clearly not what happened.
This sucks to hear but it is not at all surprising. Another funny part of this is that Noah was sold as a great character guy for the team when we signed him and then apparently "partied too much." It's hard to undersell what a disaster the Knicks franchise is. I'll be thrilled if we can pull off signing KD and admit it is certainly possible but for the life of me I can't understand how anyone could have any faith in the front office. Perry seems good but Dolan is still the owner. And Mills is still the guy that paid Hardaway so much that we needed to package our best young player in like 20 years to get rid of him. It is definitely more likely that we find a way to screw up any plan than do something great.
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But durant has not talked to the media since kp trade, probably doesnt want to answer questions about the knicks but one of their beats said it is very unusual for kd not to be around
All due respect... it's February. Unless he's a moron he knows he will have to deal with these questions. I'd guess this is 100% unrelated.
i would assume so, the beat writer just said it is very weird for kd not to be around and talk to media after game
Why do these media outlets deserve anything? The Daily news is garbage these days and thats being kind.
Whys that?
Does a newspaper have any responsibility to produce a quality product?
One thing to think about though...at 31 next year, Durant will actually be 6 years older than Melo was when they dealt for him. If they actually land him and another, they have to push to win right away. And, I don't want Irving.
One thing to think about though...at 31 next year, Durant will actually be 6 years older than Melo was when they dealt for him. If they actually land him and another, they have to push to win right away. And, I don't want Irving.
The 2023 pick is protected 1-10.
Irving and Durant would be a match made in heaven. They would work perfectly well together
Freedom of the press?? Lol, the idea of defending Dolan sickens me but that does not apply here.
A tabloid who calls itself a newspaper should be ignored not victimized.
Irving and Durant would be a match made in heaven. They would work perfectly well together
Irving and Durant would be a match made in heaven. They would work perfectly well together
Why would they work perfectly well together? He could co exist with LeBron who does a better job of sharing the ball than Durant. Kyrie and Durant are both scorers who need the ball. The reason Durant and Steph work well together is b/c it was Stephs team before he arrived and he doesnt have the on court attitude the Kyrie does
What would be foolish is placing everything operating under the name 'journalism' on the same level.
Not all media should be held to the same standard. Barstool sports and the NY times arent the same animal, and some reporters are legitimate professionals and some are not. The wall st journal, times, Yahoo and ESPN can all still cover the knicks.
We can have a discussion about the fact that there is a legitimate effort to undercut real freedom of the press in the country, but this ain't it.
Regarding draft prospects, he said Zion is the only one who'd make his first tier in last year's draft (Jaren Jackson and Luka) - none of the other prospects would make second tier in last year's draft. He said Texas PF Jaxson Hayes may rise into the top five discussion by season's end. Maybe a KP replacement if we drop?
He closed with two thoughts on Perry. He's a big believer in developing relationships, and figures KP was jettisoned before his attitude became too much of a problem. He suspects they're dragging things out with Kanter through the trade deadline because the players know he's a clown, just like most fans do - no fear of him infecting anyone else. Also, Perry's super organized and will have Plans A-Z this offseason. Pearlman said Knicks fans shouldn't worry about paying top dollar to non-max guys, unless KD demands they get the best player they can as a running mate.
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