This isn't the NFL. The idea of franchises holding 'leverage' over players doesn't work the same. Players self-determine in the NBA. Jimmy fucking Butler has won nothing and gets to decide where he wants to play.
Steve Mills is not the GM. He hasn't been the GM since Perry took the job. It's silly. We're making Steve Mills out to be a james bond villain. Scott Perry is a legitimate NBA executive.
The New York Knicks are the biggest embarrassment in professional sports. Week after week it's something new. It's either on the court or off the court, but the Knicks are bound to leave this city feeling ashamed.
Who comes close? The Lions? The Jets? Things are looking up for the Browns.
it is funny you say embarrassment because every single analyst has said this is a good deal
This x 100. I've yet to see an intelligent basketball analyst kill the deal for the Knicks. The ones who are killing the deal for the Knicks are the guys who make a living off of quick, surface-level, loud, exaggerated statements and the NY media who would kill anything they did including signing KP to a max because 1) they hate Dolan and 2) they know that their best shot at getting eyeballs on their dying papers is over-the-top negativity.
Steve Mills is not the GM. He hasn't been the GM since Perry took the job. It's silly. We're making Steve Mills out to be a james bond villain. Scott Perry is a legitimate NBA executive.
Well, for one thing, he's been a Knicks executive for almost the entire period of abject failure and seems to have employment for life for no apparent reason. I think there's plenty of reason to question how much authority Perry actually has when Dolan's longtime lackey is still in a position of power.
They just traded away the guy Mills blew his wad over and had to have. Â
You can say he's not in charge, or he doesn't have that much impact - but he's there, despite a horrifyingly bad track record. There's really no reason or excuse for it, and the team continues to suck.
RE: They just traded away the guy Mills blew his wad over and had to have. Â
Feels like if Mills was actually doing anything to exert control over the team, that wouldn't have gone down that way.
Yeah regardless if you like the move or not, or if it even works out or not; this move looks far more as Perry trying to fix things as he sees it than Mills handling it.
and maybe he will sign with Dallas. It's clear he's been unhappy with the team here. He also could be getting really bad advice from his family.
At the end of the day, if he's not gonna sign, you have to trade him. I'm not sure they got the best deal they could have, but if you look back, it seems he really was unhappy here and wasn't gonna sign. So, bye. Dallas can take the risk of signing him to a max deal and hoping he stays healthy.
The odds of an oft-injured player staying healthy are not that great, especially when you consider the number of injuries he has had for his age, I think it's the right move.
RE: What did the Knicks have to make right with Porzingis? Â
Tried to repeatedly trade him. Publicly shit on him. Gave him 4 coaches in 3 seasons and surrounded him with bad players. Lied about his rehab and condition. But aside from that they treated him great.
And you can think whatever you want, Steve Mills is president and above Perry. And Perry is a first time GM. Boggles my mind how people have such faith in these 2.
I'm just saying, given what we know about how Dolan operates Â
So I’ll say it. Other than a star player if someone wants my total support. Take fucking KP out! Right at the god damn knee! And I really don’t care some of “the new generation” will whine so be it.
Basically they traded Porzingis for three 1st rounders, one of which is Smith, cap room and probably a lot of clarity. I'm not sure if Porzingis wouldn't have caved eventually but the neverending drama of signing an extension and finding enough cap room to add signifcant players would have made the next months difficult.
What hurts is that amid all the chaos Porzingis and the tank seemed to be the moves they had finally gotten right. Now it's down to the tank and free agency. Two big ifs.
What bothers me about the idea of Durant and Irving: Durant is 31 years old when next season starts, and he's got a lot of mileage. And Irving has been injured quite often in previous years. Betting the future on those two, if they come at all, comes with its own set of risks.
is coming and bringing Irving with him. Also have hopefully a top 3 pick, Knox, Robinson and all draft assets plus they get rid of a malcontent and his asshole brother.
Huge risk no doubt but huge reward also. As a Knick fan I'll take that.
RE: Mills is the Knicks version of Quinn, but with a lot more Â
You can say he's not in charge, or he doesn't have that much impact - but he's there, despite a horrifyingly bad track record. There's really no reason or excuse for it, and the team continues to suck.
What exactly is his "deeply horrifying track record"? Prior to returning to the Knicks in 2013, Mills was on the business side of MSG. He had nothing to do with personnel moves. Then months into being re-hired by them but this time on the basketball side, they brought in Phil Jackson to be his boss who clearly the one pulling the strings and making all the decisions. Sure, he made the decision to sign Hardaway to that albatross contract which was a terrible decision but it's literally the only impactful decision Mills has ever really made that effects the Knicks personnel.
RE: RE: What did the Knicks have to make right with Porzingis? Â
Tried to repeatedly trade him. Publicly shit on him. Gave him 4 coaches in 3 seasons and surrounded him with bad players. Lied about his rehab and condition. But aside from that they treated him great.
And you can think whatever you want, Steve Mills is president and above Perry. And Perry is a first time GM. Boggles my mind how people have such faith in these 2.
One, I have not seen anybody support Mills so I am not sure what you are talking about. Two, I have not seen anybody praise Perry. What I have said is I give him the benefit of the doubt as of now. Since he has been here he has brought in guys like Knox, Robinson, and Trier. He brought in Fis. He dumped both Hardaway and Lee while getting DSJ and 2 firsts. Yes, it took Porzingis to do it but being realistic Porzingis was trying to hold us hostage. This trade is incomplete until we see what happens with these max slots. So, I for one have said he deserves the benefit of the doubt here. Nobody is verbally blowing the guy.
RE: RE: Mills is the Knicks version of Quinn, but with a lot more Â
Basically they traded Porzingis for three 1st rounders, one of which is Smith, cap room and probably a lot of clarity. I'm not sure if Porzingis wouldn't have caved eventually but the neverending drama of signing an extension and finding enough cap room to add signifcant players would have made the next months difficult.
What hurts is that amid all the chaos Porzingis and the tank seemed to be the moves they had finally gotten right. Now it's down to the tank and free agency. Two big ifs.
What bothers me about the idea of Durant and Irving: Durant is 31 years old when next season starts, and he's got a lot of mileage. And Irving has been injured quite often in previous years. Betting the future on those two, if they come at all, comes with its own set of risks.
It's a risk for sure but Durant is the type of player who I think will age well given his length for defensive purposes and his shooting ability. It's not like his game is solely breaking down the defense and relying on his athleticism to do so. While not the same archetype, Nowitzki for example had some of his best years from ages 31-34 including leading the Mavs to a title.
RE: RE: RE: Mills is the Knicks version of Quinn, but with a lot more Â
I still don't trust the Knicks whatsoever, so I doubt this ends up with them signing two legit superstars. That kind of luck just doesn't go the Knicks way.
With that being said, the timing on this made it right. If Porzingis truly didn't want to be here, you can't go into the off-season with him as your recruiting tool. Plus, what superstar is coming to the Knicks to play with Porzingis, who hasn't been on the court in over a year and has been hampered by nagging injuries prior to the knee.
If the Knicks wait to deal him in the off-season, they miss out on their opportunity at two max contracts, and they sell him for $0.75 on the $1.00.
Bottom line is, I hate the way today's NBA is constructed, thanks to LeBron and his manipulative past. The players have too much leverage, and hold the teams (and fans) hostage. I've come to grips with this, for now, but I'm still very skeptical on this ending well for the Knicks.
Good post. I tend to agree it will not end well. But they have put themselves in a position where they can sign two max free agents, which gives them a shot at KD/Kyrie or some other combo with Leonard.
If those guys don't want to come to NY, what can they do? Nobody was coming to NY for a chance to pair with an injured KP. A lot of Knicks fans grossly overestimate the appeal of Porzingas. He was a top 20 player. Not a top five player. Throw in the injury concerns and he was not much of an inducement.
Unlike Donnie, Perry did not mortgage the future to clear cap space. In fact, he added two first round picks. So, the Knicks can continue their rebuild if they miss out on elite FA.
RE: RE: RE: Mills is the Knicks version of Quinn, but with a lot more Â
What exactly is his "deeply horrifying track record"?
Isn't he the guy who advised Dolan to hire Isiah?
He may have given his stamp of approval but it was Magic Johnson who initially suggested the Knicks hire Isiah. Either way, while a dumb decision that crippled the franchise for a long time, it's not a player personnel move and nobody is holding that poor judgement against Magic, are they?
1. How quickly this all transpired. If happened over a longer period of time and it ended up being the best deal available, it would have been easier to digest. It all came out before reports that they talked with NOLA, and before whatever else is about to come out.
2. Porzingis is the first potential franchise superstar player the Knicks have drafted since Ewing. There was so much promise there. And they shipped him off to clear their own bad contracts that were bad at the time of the signing and bring back a player they passed over in the draft and still hasn't shown potential to be a winner.
I realize that this regime isn't the ones that made those decisions, but there is still enough overlap. And when you have the same rotten organization making incompetent decisions for decades, I think it's fair for the fans to treat the organization with that same owner as a continuous entity.
Yes, the Knicks can bring in two max contracts now. But if you believed that KP was worth a max contract (I was very concerned), then you already had that player on the roster and could still figure out a way to bring in another max player, while getting a top draft pick.
I like teams swinging for the fences. But the Knicks as an organization have shown a horrific track record of decision-making, so it's hard to get too excited.
is if you think KP and his 7'3" body will avoid the chronic injuries that almost all players his height have had.
Most end up with career-ending foot injuries. Smits, Sabonis, Eaton, Yao Ming, Shaun Bradley.
The list of players 7'2" and taller who have had significant injuries is much longer than the list of those who haven't.
We don't even need to talk about Muersan and the giganticism part.
This is true but the other thing I hardly ever see discussed is the fact that every single year KP has shown clear regression as the season wore on. He looked gassed on a nightly basis and became less effective as a result. Of course, this was usually the point in time in which fans lost interest in the Knicks so it's not a surprise that many didn't notice but if your conditioning isn't up to snuff by your third season in the NBA, we have to wonder if it has more to do with his frame than anything else. How can a guy like that carry a team?
is what they do with Jordan and Matthews. Those two along with DSJ could really screw up this tank. They simply cannot allow those guys to play any minutes. If they can’t trade them, buy them out. I’m nervous about them saying that they can help the young guys. Hopefully just lip service until they are gone, but it’s something to monitor
is what they do with Jordan and Matthews. Those two along with DSJ could really screw up this tank. They simply cannot allow those guys to play any minutes. If they can’t trade them, buy them out. I’m nervous about them saying that they can help the young guys. Hopefully just lip service until they are gone, but it’s something to monitor
This is my main concern the rest of the way too.
They aren't going to suddenly start winning games Â
1. How quickly this all transpired. If happened over a longer period of time and it ended up being the best deal available, it would have been easier to digest. It all came out before reports that they talked with NOLA, and before whatever else is about to come out.
2. Porzingis is the first potential franchise superstar player the Knicks have drafted since Ewing. There was so much promise there. And they shipped him off to clear their own bad contracts that were bad at the time of the signing and bring back a player they passed over in the draft and still hasn't shown potential to be a winner.
I realize that this regime isn't the ones that made those decisions, but there is still enough overlap. And when you have the same rotten organization making incompetent decisions for decades, I think it's fair for the fans to treat the organization with that same owner as a continuous entity.
Yes, the Knicks can bring in two max contracts now. But if you believed that KP was worth a max contract (I was very concerned), then you already had that player on the roster and could still figure out a way to bring in another max player, while getting a top draft pick.
I like teams swinging for the fences. But the Knicks as an organization have shown a horrific track record of decision-making, so it's hard to get too excited.
Just because you think this trade happened fast doesn't mean it did. Supposedly he was shopped for awhile as a backup plan if he wasn't going to sign long term with us. When he made that clear and said he wanted to be traded that was just the tipping point.
Yes, you have a right to hate this franchise. They have doje nothing but disappoint. That is understandable and logical.
is what they do with Jordan and Matthews. Those two along with DSJ could really screw up this tank. They simply cannot allow those guys to play any minutes. If they can’t trade them, buy them out. I’m nervous about them saying that they can help the young guys. Hopefully just lip service until they are gone, but it’s something to monitor
and what happens when he signed the qualifying offer and the knicks lost him for nothing?
Exactly. That was the total nightmare scenario and Knicks avoided it.
And quite honestly, I don't think they could have gotten more than a decent young player with two cheap years left, a totally unprotected 1st, and a 1st protected for 1-10. That's more than the Knicks gave up for Melo imo.
is what they do with Jordan and Matthews. Those two along with DSJ could really screw up this tank. They simply cannot allow those guys to play any minutes. If they can’t trade them, buy them out. I’m nervous about them saying that they can help the young guys. Hopefully just lip service until they are gone, but it’s something to monitor
They'll probably hold onto them until the deadline and see if they can get an asset or two in return before buying them out. I don't think any of those guys are good enough to change the Knicks' fortunes right now though. I do wonder if they want to hold onto Jordan as someone who Robinson can learn from given the similar mold and Jordan's success in the NBA. If he's willing of course.
I was thinking about it last night and I actually think playing in the previous era helped guys like Sabonis and Yao, even though it was more physical. No way either play could run and gun in todays NBA. And that’s the problem I see with KP, as a stretch 4 his peak is in that role. If his injuries prevent him from moving and reacting quickly, he’s finished in that role. He will then have to learn to play like a 5.
I like this for the knicks, shows me they learned from the mistakes with Melo.
I think now is also the time to re-evaluate the front office Â
They have completely stripped the roster. They have room for two max contracts next year. They have Kevin Knox, and they are in position to get a top pick in the draft.
This is the time for the Knicks to audit themselves and ask if they have the best possible President/GM braintrust available to design this future. They are effectively the new Founding Fathers and will be making franchise-altering decisions.
I have no ability to evaluate Mills but I trust Mills over Dolan because no one is worse than Dolan.
So, effectively, Mills has to take time and really ask if Scott Perry is the best possible architect available. It's not about what Perry has done thus far. It's about right here, right now.
If Steve Mills could have anyone in the world to try and pitch max guys and have the awareness of how to build out the roster, and how to build an analytics department-- who would he hire? If someone is on that list ahead of Scott Perry, I think he owes it to the franchise to inquire.
The Knicks are NOT done trading. Many of the contenders have BIG holes to fill before a playoff run.
Because the Knicks were over the cap, they cannot trade Matthews or Jordan together with other players- but they CAN trade them individually and get multiple players/picks back.
For example, the Sixers need wing scoring and a PF. The Knicks could offer Matthews to the Sixers for Chandler and Korkmaz (Chandler for Matthews alone comes up about $750,000 short) and some picks.
Keep in mind that the Sixers "own" the Knicks 2020 and 2021 second round picks. In addition, the Sixers have the Bulls 2019 second rounder. The Knicks could ask for their own picks back, or just aim for the Chicago pick, which will have solid value (that's about where they got Robinson last year).
Another option- Capela is likely out for the majority of the regular season- and may be limited when he returns for Houston. Trading Jordan for Knight and Criss and filler like Gerald Green and picks. Houston is in a dogfight to hols playoff position- they are 6th in the West- with the Jazz, Clippers, Lakers all within 3 games of them- and are only 2 games out of the 4 seed. They have incentive to make a deal.
Houston has all of its 1st rounders going forward. The Knicks already have Houston's 2nd rounder in 2019. Houston probably doesn't mind sending out a 1st since they can safely assume that these aren't difference making picks (at least for Houston). However, the Knicks need to collect assets, so any 1st rounder is valuable.
Along the same lines, the Clippers are in a playoff spot, but are REALLY weak in the paint- and are VERY familiar with Jordan. A trade of Jordan for Gortat, Teodosic and a 2021 1st (the Clips already traded their 2019 1st rounder to Boston) would work as well.
The Lakers are weak in shooting from deep and LeBron is back. Matthews makes sense there in a deal for Rondo and Stephenson (plus a minimum salary filler) and picks. The Lakers have all of their picks except for their 2019 second rounder. Matthews makes sense as an expiring, which won't hinder their FA plans this summer, while still giving them a vet deep threat for the playoffs.
There are other moves that make sense. Kanter is a flawed player who is hard to trade, but Matthews and Jordan may fit the contenders better.
Just because you think this trade happened fast doesn't mean it did. Supposedly he was shopped for awhile as a backup plan if he wasn't going to sign long term with us. When he made that clear and said he wanted to be traded that was just the tipping point.
Yes, you have a right to hate this franchise. They have doje nothing but disappoint. That is understandable and logical.
Right. I'm saying how it all went down to the fans is what makes it a lot harder to digest. Fans were completely blindsided. All they got was "KP wants out" and in the blink of an eye there was a full deal done.
My hope is that the Knicks did exhaustive due diligence to see what they could have gotten back and didn't just capitulate to the first offer that cleared space.
part that I don't really like is the quotes that came out yesterday from Mills and Perry and the timeline of all events. Parts of this ordeal just does not feel kosher. Put all facts on the table; Knicks refused to offer KP a max contract over the past off-season since they wanted the extra cap space provided this coming off-season; they have supposedly been canvasing the league of potential KP trade deals for the last couple of months; they have a meeting out of the blue yesterday morning with Porzingis where they claim he was not completely on board with the plan we laid out" and Scott Perry said he "no longer wanted to be a part of our group".
What exactly is "completely on board" with the plan? Did he just have some questions that he wanted answered; like how are you going to build the team around me when were saddled with stiffs like THJ? And what is "no longer wanted to be a part of our group"? The Knicks act like its all KP's fault that this happened, but in the same breathe say they have been seeking a potential trade of him for a while and refused to commit to him fully just a few months ago.
Why do I get the feeling that this meeting was a planned sit down to tell him, look, we have a deal lined up that would trade you to Dallas for cap relief and first round picks; you can either stay and we have to get rid of our remaining assets just to get a swing at a big free agency and hope ping pong balls fall our way, or we can let you go. KP says he doesn't like that plan and then you get the Knicks great spin machine who knows KP has said and done some dumb things in the past so fans are already weary of him. Sure he could have said he wasn't on board with giving up assets without knowing what free agency may lead to; he did play with Carmelo whom the Knicks asked to take a pay cut to help build a team only to see the Knicks give that money saved to Lance Thomas so he rightfully can be weary. And then when given the options on the table he might have said I'd rather be traded, and the spin machine can now say KP didn't want to be a Knick.
Maybe Porzingis was adamant he didn't want to be here, but damn did it seem like the Knicks went into full blown spin control from the second they put out the rumor that KP was requesting a trade yesterday afternoon, to announcing a trade 45 minutes later, all the way through the night of quotes and storyline emerging from all of this. At the end of the day I don't think the haul was really all that bad, dealing Porzingis for essentially 3 first round picks (if they want to deal Smith I am sure they could still get a first for him, Hardaway the first go through netted a first) and 30 mil in additional cap space is way better than these rumored Laker deals for Anthony Davis and may be better than what Boston would give up if they refuse to deal Tatum. I just hate the games that come along with anything this team does.
Basically they said that the Knicks initially thought they had built a good relationship with Porzingis but that they recently had decided that was not true. They felt he was disgruntled and unhappy here and started to work on a trade. Once they had the meeting with him and he said he didn't believe in the Knicks and preferred a trade, they pulled the trigger.
It did seem like a knee jerk reaction yesterday because it happened so damn fast. But alternately, perhaps the Knicks were just ready for this turn of events and decided to not allow the drama to fester and made the trade and were ready to move on from KP.
This isn't the NFL. The idea of franchises holding 'leverage' over players doesn't work the same. Players self-determine in the NBA. Jimmy fucking Butler has won nothing and gets to decide where he wants to play.
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The New York Knicks are the biggest embarrassment in professional sports. Week after week it's something new. It's either on the court or off the court, but the Knicks are bound to leave this city feeling ashamed.
Who comes close? The Lions? The Jets? Things are looking up for the Browns.
it is funny you say embarrassment because every single analyst has said this is a good deal
This x 100. I've yet to see an intelligent basketball analyst kill the deal for the Knicks. The ones who are killing the deal for the Knicks are the guys who make a living off of quick, surface-level, loud, exaggerated statements and the NY media who would kill anything they did including signing KP to a max because 1) they hate Dolan and 2) they know that their best shot at getting eyeballs on their dying papers is over-the-top negativity.
Well, for one thing, he's been a Knicks executive for almost the entire period of abject failure and seems to have employment for life for no apparent reason. I think there's plenty of reason to question how much authority Perry actually has when Dolan's longtime lackey is still in a position of power.
You can say he's not in charge, or he doesn't have that much impact - but he's there, despite a horrifyingly bad track record. There's really no reason or excuse for it, and the team continues to suck.
Yeah regardless if you like the move or not, or if it even works out or not; this move looks far more as Perry trying to fix things as he sees it than Mills handling it.
no
Knicks fans would then be pissed we didn't trade him when we could.
At the end of the day, if he's not gonna sign, you have to trade him. I'm not sure they got the best deal they could have, but if you look back, it seems he really was unhappy here and wasn't gonna sign. So, bye. Dallas can take the risk of signing him to a max deal and hoping he stays healthy.
The odds of an oft-injured player staying healthy are not that great, especially when you consider the number of injuries he has had for his age, I think it's the right move.
Let's get real.
Tried to repeatedly trade him. Publicly shit on him. Gave him 4 coaches in 3 seasons and surrounded him with bad players. Lied about his rehab and condition. But aside from that they treated him great.
And you can think whatever you want, Steve Mills is president and above Perry. And Perry is a first time GM. Boggles my mind how people have such faith in these 2.
You are a scumbag.
What hurts is that amid all the chaos Porzingis and the tank seemed to be the moves they had finally gotten right. Now it's down to the tank and free agency. Two big ifs.
What bothers me about the idea of Durant and Irving: Durant is 31 years old when next season starts, and he's got a lot of mileage. And Irving has been injured quite often in previous years. Betting the future on those two, if they come at all, comes with its own set of risks.
Huge risk no doubt but huge reward also. As a Knick fan I'll take that.
You can say he's not in charge, or he doesn't have that much impact - but he's there, despite a horrifyingly bad track record. There's really no reason or excuse for it, and the team continues to suck.
What exactly is his "deeply horrifying track record"? Prior to returning to the Knicks in 2013, Mills was on the business side of MSG. He had nothing to do with personnel moves. Then months into being re-hired by them but this time on the basketball side, they brought in Phil Jackson to be his boss who clearly the one pulling the strings and making all the decisions. Sure, he made the decision to sign Hardaway to that albatross contract which was a terrible decision but it's literally the only impactful decision Mills has ever really made that effects the Knicks personnel.
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What did they do to him?
Let's get real.
Tried to repeatedly trade him. Publicly shit on him. Gave him 4 coaches in 3 seasons and surrounded him with bad players. Lied about his rehab and condition. But aside from that they treated him great.
And you can think whatever you want, Steve Mills is president and above Perry. And Perry is a first time GM. Boggles my mind how people have such faith in these 2.
One, I have not seen anybody support Mills so I am not sure what you are talking about. Two, I have not seen anybody praise Perry. What I have said is I give him the benefit of the doubt as of now. Since he has been here he has brought in guys like Knox, Robinson, and Trier. He brought in Fis. He dumped both Hardaway and Lee while getting DSJ and 2 firsts. Yes, it took Porzingis to do it but being realistic Porzingis was trying to hold us hostage. This trade is incomplete until we see what happens with these max slots. So, I for one have said he deserves the benefit of the doubt here. Nobody is verbally blowing the guy.
Isn't he the guy who advised Dolan to hire Isiah?
Looking forward to it too.
What hurts is that amid all the chaos Porzingis and the tank seemed to be the moves they had finally gotten right. Now it's down to the tank and free agency. Two big ifs.
What bothers me about the idea of Durant and Irving: Durant is 31 years old when next season starts, and he's got a lot of mileage. And Irving has been injured quite often in previous years. Betting the future on those two, if they come at all, comes with its own set of risks.
It's a risk for sure but Durant is the type of player who I think will age well given his length for defensive purposes and his shooting ability. It's not like his game is solely breaking down the defense and relying on his athleticism to do so. While not the same archetype, Nowitzki for example had some of his best years from ages 31-34 including leading the Mavs to a title.
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What exactly is his "deeply horrifying track record"?
Isn't he the guy who advised Dolan to hire Isiah?
no that was magic
Most end up with career-ending foot injuries. Smits, Sabonis, Eaton, Yao Ming, Shaun Bradley.
The list of players 7'2" and taller who have had significant injuries is much longer than the list of those who haven't.
We don't even need to talk about Muersan and the giganticism part.
With that being said, the timing on this made it right. If Porzingis truly didn't want to be here, you can't go into the off-season with him as your recruiting tool. Plus, what superstar is coming to the Knicks to play with Porzingis, who hasn't been on the court in over a year and has been hampered by nagging injuries prior to the knee.
If the Knicks wait to deal him in the off-season, they miss out on their opportunity at two max contracts, and they sell him for $0.75 on the $1.00.
Bottom line is, I hate the way today's NBA is constructed, thanks to LeBron and his manipulative past. The players have too much leverage, and hold the teams (and fans) hostage. I've come to grips with this, for now, but I'm still very skeptical on this ending well for the Knicks.
Good post. I tend to agree it will not end well. But they have put themselves in a position where they can sign two max free agents, which gives them a shot at KD/Kyrie or some other combo with Leonard.
If those guys don't want to come to NY, what can they do? Nobody was coming to NY for a chance to pair with an injured KP. A lot of Knicks fans grossly overestimate the appeal of Porzingas. He was a top 20 player. Not a top five player. Throw in the injury concerns and he was not much of an inducement.
Unlike Donnie, Perry did not mortgage the future to clear cap space. In fact, he added two first round picks. So, the Knicks can continue their rebuild if they miss out on elite FA.
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What exactly is his "deeply horrifying track record"?
Isn't he the guy who advised Dolan to hire Isiah?
He may have given his stamp of approval but it was Magic Johnson who initially suggested the Knicks hire Isiah. Either way, while a dumb decision that crippled the franchise for a long time, it's not a player personnel move and nobody is holding that poor judgement against Magic, are they?
Worst tank EVER.
1. How quickly this all transpired. If happened over a longer period of time and it ended up being the best deal available, it would have been easier to digest. It all came out before reports that they talked with NOLA, and before whatever else is about to come out.
2. Porzingis is the first potential franchise superstar player the Knicks have drafted since Ewing. There was so much promise there. And they shipped him off to clear their own bad contracts that were bad at the time of the signing and bring back a player they passed over in the draft and still hasn't shown potential to be a winner.
I realize that this regime isn't the ones that made those decisions, but there is still enough overlap. And when you have the same rotten organization making incompetent decisions for decades, I think it's fair for the fans to treat the organization with that same owner as a continuous entity.
Yes, the Knicks can bring in two max contracts now. But if you believed that KP was worth a max contract (I was very concerned), then you already had that player on the roster and could still figure out a way to bring in another max player, while getting a top draft pick.
I like teams swinging for the fences. But the Knicks as an organization have shown a horrific track record of decision-making, so it's hard to get too excited.
Most end up with career-ending foot injuries. Smits, Sabonis, Eaton, Yao Ming, Shaun Bradley.
The list of players 7'2" and taller who have had significant injuries is much longer than the list of those who haven't.
We don't even need to talk about Muersan and the giganticism part.
This is true but the other thing I hardly ever see discussed is the fact that every single year KP has shown clear regression as the season wore on. He looked gassed on a nightly basis and became less effective as a result. Of course, this was usually the point in time in which fans lost interest in the Knicks so it's not a surprise that many didn't notice but if your conditioning isn't up to snuff by your third season in the NBA, we have to wonder if it has more to do with his frame than anything else. How can a guy like that carry a team?
That's why the Knicks are so uniquely pathetic - they weren't trying to tank until now. They were trying to win and failing utterly and completely.
This is my main concern the rest of the way too.
1. How quickly this all transpired. If happened over a longer period of time and it ended up being the best deal available, it would have been easier to digest. It all came out before reports that they talked with NOLA, and before whatever else is about to come out.
2. Porzingis is the first potential franchise superstar player the Knicks have drafted since Ewing. There was so much promise there. And they shipped him off to clear their own bad contracts that were bad at the time of the signing and bring back a player they passed over in the draft and still hasn't shown potential to be a winner.
I realize that this regime isn't the ones that made those decisions, but there is still enough overlap. And when you have the same rotten organization making incompetent decisions for decades, I think it's fair for the fans to treat the organization with that same owner as a continuous entity.
Yes, the Knicks can bring in two max contracts now. But if you believed that KP was worth a max contract (I was very concerned), then you already had that player on the roster and could still figure out a way to bring in another max player, while getting a top draft pick.
I like teams swinging for the fences. But the Knicks as an organization have shown a horrific track record of decision-making, so it's hard to get too excited.
Just because you think this trade happened fast doesn't mean it did. Supposedly he was shopped for awhile as a backup plan if he wasn't going to sign long term with us. When he made that clear and said he wanted to be traded that was just the tipping point.
Yes, you have a right to hate this franchise. They have doje nothing but disappoint. That is understandable and logical.
That's a good point.
Exactly. That was the total nightmare scenario and Knicks avoided it.
And quite honestly, I don't think they could have gotten more than a decent young player with two cheap years left, a totally unprotected 1st, and a 1st protected for 1-10. That's more than the Knicks gave up for Melo imo.
They'll probably hold onto them until the deadline and see if they can get an asset or two in return before buying them out. I don't think any of those guys are good enough to change the Knicks' fortunes right now though. I do wonder if they want to hold onto Jordan as someone who Robinson can learn from given the similar mold and Jordan's success in the NBA. If he's willing of course.
I like this for the knicks, shows me they learned from the mistakes with Melo.
This is the time for the Knicks to audit themselves and ask if they have the best possible President/GM braintrust available to design this future. They are effectively the new Founding Fathers and will be making franchise-altering decisions.
I have no ability to evaluate Mills but I trust Mills over Dolan because no one is worse than Dolan.
So, effectively, Mills has to take time and really ask if Scott Perry is the best possible architect available. It's not about what Perry has done thus far. It's about right here, right now.
If Steve Mills could have anyone in the world to try and pitch max guys and have the awareness of how to build out the roster, and how to build an analytics department-- who would he hire? If someone is on that list ahead of Scott Perry, I think he owes it to the franchise to inquire.
Because the Knicks were over the cap, they cannot trade Matthews or Jordan together with other players- but they CAN trade them individually and get multiple players/picks back.
For example, the Sixers need wing scoring and a PF. The Knicks could offer Matthews to the Sixers for Chandler and Korkmaz (Chandler for Matthews alone comes up about $750,000 short) and some picks.
Keep in mind that the Sixers "own" the Knicks 2020 and 2021 second round picks. In addition, the Sixers have the Bulls 2019 second rounder. The Knicks could ask for their own picks back, or just aim for the Chicago pick, which will have solid value (that's about where they got Robinson last year).
Another option- Capela is likely out for the majority of the regular season- and may be limited when he returns for Houston. Trading Jordan for Knight and Criss and filler like Gerald Green and picks. Houston is in a dogfight to hols playoff position- they are 6th in the West- with the Jazz, Clippers, Lakers all within 3 games of them- and are only 2 games out of the 4 seed. They have incentive to make a deal.
Houston has all of its 1st rounders going forward. The Knicks already have Houston's 2nd rounder in 2019. Houston probably doesn't mind sending out a 1st since they can safely assume that these aren't difference making picks (at least for Houston). However, the Knicks need to collect assets, so any 1st rounder is valuable.
Along the same lines, the Clippers are in a playoff spot, but are REALLY weak in the paint- and are VERY familiar with Jordan. A trade of Jordan for Gortat, Teodosic and a 2021 1st (the Clips already traded their 2019 1st rounder to Boston) would work as well.
The Lakers are weak in shooting from deep and LeBron is back. Matthews makes sense there in a deal for Rondo and Stephenson (plus a minimum salary filler) and picks. The Lakers have all of their picks except for their 2019 second rounder. Matthews makes sense as an expiring, which won't hinder their FA plans this summer, while still giving them a vet deep threat for the playoffs.
There are other moves that make sense. Kanter is a flawed player who is hard to trade, but Matthews and Jordan may fit the contenders better.
Just because you think this trade happened fast doesn't mean it did. Supposedly he was shopped for awhile as a backup plan if he wasn't going to sign long term with us. When he made that clear and said he wanted to be traded that was just the tipping point.
Yes, you have a right to hate this franchise. They have doje nothing but disappoint. That is understandable and logical.
Right. I'm saying how it all went down to the fans is what makes it a lot harder to digest. Fans were completely blindsided. All they got was "KP wants out" and in the blink of an eye there was a full deal done.
My hope is that the Knicks did exhaustive due diligence to see what they could have gotten back and didn't just capitulate to the first offer that cleared space.
What exactly is "completely on board" with the plan? Did he just have some questions that he wanted answered; like how are you going to build the team around me when were saddled with stiffs like THJ? And what is "no longer wanted to be a part of our group"? The Knicks act like its all KP's fault that this happened, but in the same breathe say they have been seeking a potential trade of him for a while and refused to commit to him fully just a few months ago.
Why do I get the feeling that this meeting was a planned sit down to tell him, look, we have a deal lined up that would trade you to Dallas for cap relief and first round picks; you can either stay and we have to get rid of our remaining assets just to get a swing at a big free agency and hope ping pong balls fall our way, or we can let you go. KP says he doesn't like that plan and then you get the Knicks great spin machine who knows KP has said and done some dumb things in the past so fans are already weary of him. Sure he could have said he wasn't on board with giving up assets without knowing what free agency may lead to; he did play with Carmelo whom the Knicks asked to take a pay cut to help build a team only to see the Knicks give that money saved to Lance Thomas so he rightfully can be weary. And then when given the options on the table he might have said I'd rather be traded, and the spin machine can now say KP didn't want to be a Knick.
Maybe Porzingis was adamant he didn't want to be here, but damn did it seem like the Knicks went into full blown spin control from the second they put out the rumor that KP was requesting a trade yesterday afternoon, to announcing a trade 45 minutes later, all the way through the night of quotes and storyline emerging from all of this. At the end of the day I don't think the haul was really all that bad, dealing Porzingis for essentially 3 first round picks (if they want to deal Smith I am sure they could still get a first for him, Hardaway the first go through netted a first) and 30 mil in additional cap space is way better than these rumored Laker deals for Anthony Davis and may be better than what Boston would give up if they refuse to deal Tatum. I just hate the games that come along with anything this team does.
It did seem like a knee jerk reaction yesterday because it happened so damn fast. But alternately, perhaps the Knicks were just ready for this turn of events and decided to not allow the drama to fester and made the trade and were ready to move on from KP.
If he's not interested in signing a long term contract why would they be?
Quote:
that NO wasn't interested in KP? I saw that on ESPN'S or NBATV's bottom line last night.
If he's not interested in signing a long term contract why would they be?
Fair enough but it does indicate (if true) that the Knicks at least tried.