I was listening to Golic this morning and he had Murray on his show.
Murray sounds like a great kid. He is a rare athlete that has the ability to succeed in both football and baseball.
He has until mid February to make a definitive decision between baseball and football. If he is to play baseball he will have to participate in spring training.
It sounded a lot like he will play football.
Murray considers himself a field general. He loves the cerebral portion of the game and believes that his college training has prepared him for the pros.
One other observation from the interview, Golic offered that Murray was larger than he thought. He was both taller and thicker.
I would draft Murray at 6 for the Giants. I would take a chance on greatness. His detractors will say that he cannot take the beating, but Wilson and Brees, have persevered. He has the greatest upside of the QBs, there is no weakness to his game and he is made for a Pat Shurmer offense.
Murray would improve the offensive line, as defenses would have to try and maintain the pocket.
Put him with Barkley, OBJ and Engram and they will be unstoppable.
Haskins is a good QB but not great and has limited upside
Haskins is not a fast twitch or sudden player
He has slow footwork and a long delivery with a hitch
He is a prototype drop back passer but he does not have an extremely strong arm
He can extend plays with his strength but he is not explosive
Haskins upside is limited
It is not that I dislike Haskins , he just is not Murray
Murray has an unlimited upside based upon his skill set
There is risk in Kyler but I would rather take a chance on greatness
Haskins is a good QB but not great and has limited upside
Haskins is not a fast twitch or sudden player
He has slow footwork and a long delivery with a hitch
He is a prototype drop back passer but he does not have an extremely strong arm
He can extend plays with his strength but he is not explosive
Haskins upside is limited
It is not that I dislike Haskins , he just is not Murray
Murray has an unlimited upside based upon his skill set
There is risk in Kyler but I would rather take a chance on greatness
The Giants can't afford to take ANY chances with the 6th pick. It needs to be a player they're convinced will be a can't miss pro. One who hopefully fills a position of great need taboot.
If they're convinced it's one of the QB's then so be it but it can't be a hope type pick. It has to be a player they're sold 100% on IMO.
People want an ER and I get it. But there's a real potential of us only being able to get the #3 or #4 ranked ER in the draft if we don't move up. Isn't that risky?
I'm fine going ER, but I'm not going to pretend that its any guarantee.
Trust your board and trust your evaluations, but in the end you need to pick a guy who can be a difference maker, not just a guy who won't become a bust.
People want an ER and I get it. But there's a real potential of us only being able to get the #3 or #4 ranked ER in the draft if we don't move up. Isn't that risky?
I'm fine going ER, but I'm not going to pretend that its any guarantee.
I'd take the #1 CB,LB,OL at six in a heartbeat who they think at worst will be a very solid pro, over rolling the dice on a QB who could be a boom or bust type pick.
As far as ER's go there's no telling what ones will be there at 6. He could be the fourth one picked but maybe the second rated one on the Giants board. Maybe even the guy everyone thinks is the 2nd best is still there.
Point is the Giants should grab what they feel is as close to a can't miss pro as they can. If they feel one of the QBs is that, then I'm fine with it. I just don't want them reaching for one over a better player, especially if that player fills a huge need.
It was in response to the OP saying he was in favor of taking a chance on greatness. To me taking a chance is pretty much rolling the dice. That's what I'm not comfortable with them doing regardless of position.
As for Murray, I agree with you. If the Giants are convinced he's the goods, I'm fine with it. I'm only against reaching for him or any of the QBs if they're not convinced and take a QB just to take one.
Well we can agree to disagree then. I for one want them taking little to no risk with the 6th pick. It's way to valuable a commodity IMO.
If someone slides into the 2nd rd who is worth taking a chance on, then fine but 6 needs to be as solid a pick as they can make IMO.
Re Murray, I have no strong feelings one way or the other. But assuming he, Haskins and Lock are all on the board when the Giants are on the clock, I'd rather see them go with the guy with the best chance to be great, not the guy with the greatest likelihood of being pretty good, the highest ceiling not the lowest floor. I don't know who that is, or how they evaluate that. I'd rather see them gamble on a great player than settle for a solid one.
Someone compared Murray to Doug Flutie. So many people focused on what Flutie wasn't (big, strong) they overlooked what he was. I don't want the Giants to have the next Doug Flutie, but that would be better than having the next Dave Brown.
I think the NFL's bias against height has merit but has been overvalued. If a player has the arm talent to throw from multiple angles and the ability to move around - he can create throwing lanes for himself. The height then doesn't matter. Murray has the arm and the instincts for that.
The additional risk with Murray is his size. That's a big one coupled with his playing style. Can he stay on the field? I think he's destined to either play hurt or miss a few games a year, I'm actually fine with that. If he's special, it's tougher to find a special talent at QB than it is to find a capable QB to plug in for a couple of games. The league is littered with them, guys come off the scrap heap and earn big contracts (see Foles and Keenum).
I think the bigger risks with him are the fact that he's only started 1 year in a QB friendly system. You combine that with his size and his game, which teams are only now opening up to as viable for the NFL and you're left with a LOT of projection. There's also the pull of baseball, which is real. Risk on top of risk on top of risk.
Then you watch him in college and imagine what he could be with Barkley and OBJ if he's even half of that player. I agree 6 is too rich for that but a late first flyer makes a ton of sense if you look at our situation and roster.
There’s a difference between not answering whether he’s leaning one way or another and, sounding completely aloof and disinterested. Even when DP moved on to other subjects and asked other questions, he basically gave shoulder shrugs as answers.
Plenty of guests go on and won’t talk about certain things but, they’re at least engaging and go along with the process of the interview without looking and sounding like a shy 3 year old.
I think that's the case, doesn't mean we agree with it.
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pass on a player because he doesn't fit the mold. They just love the safe picks, even when it comes to selecting a new GM and HC. Lot of good it's done us so far.
I think that's the case, doesn't mean we agree with it.
Shit, didn't read your post correctly...
I agree, it hasn't done the team any good, and I wish they wouldn't think so conservatively, but I don't see it changing any time soon.
Yeah those four Lombardi's look terrible in the trophy case.
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means anything. Sounds like people who don't want Murrary are grasping at stuff to knock him for other than his size. Its odd. Strange interview for sure, but he's clearly been told to not answer questions and he's getting his first taste of what that's like. The interviews with the Giants are what matters.
There’s a difference between not answering whether he’s leaning one way or another and, sounding completely aloof and disinterested. Even when DP moved on to other subjects and asked other questions, he basically gave shoulder shrugs as answers.
Plenty of guests go on and won’t talk about certain things but, they’re at least engaging and go along with the process of the interview without looking and sounding like a shy 3 year old.
He’s 21 and about to make the biggest decision of his life. He’s trying not to slip up and make a mistake. I know you may not care about those things, but it happens all the time, and it usually never matters. If DG interviews him and doesn’t give answers, that’s a different story.
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In comment 14283844 arcarsenal said:
I think a team that tries to take Murray's legs away from him will be neutering him. If you're going to take a chance on him, you have to let him play the way he's been playing.
I don't disagree with that, but that's a more reasonable position than your first post. What you're writing, to me anyway, conflates a running QB vs. a mobile QB.
I know the difference. If you're not able to discern that in my writing, that's on you.
http://www.footballperspective.com/guest-post-doug-flutie-was-a-great-quarterback/
I think this kid is another Flutie and we don’t have to miss out again, would love him on the Giants. Is there huge risk? Absolutely. There is also huge risk in taking Haskins if you believe like I do he has a limited ceiling. I would rather take the risk on potential greatness.
I do have reason to pause. Sy56 has forgotten more about footbal than I will ever know and he seems pretty certain Murray doesn’t cut it in the NFL. I was holding out hope that after he did his film study he would change his opinion. To my unprofessional and untrained eye, he looks like a special talent. He IS NOT RG3, this kid can really sling it, moves to extend the play and make tne throw, runs when circumstances call,for it and he avoids big hits. Smart player and a GAMER, he is tough and competitive. Plenty of bigger guys who play smaller. I am bummed that Sy56 does not see even some possibility he is the goods. FWIW (nothing i guess) would be ecstatic if we picked him at 6.
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In comment 14283855 UConn4523 said:
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means anything. Sounds like people who don't want Murrary are grasping at stuff to knock him for other than his size. Its odd. Strange interview for sure, but he's clearly been told to not answer questions and he's getting his first taste of what that's like. The interviews with the Giants are what matters.
There’s a difference between not answering whether he’s leaning one way or another and, sounding completely aloof and disinterested. Even when DP moved on to other subjects and asked other questions, he basically gave shoulder shrugs as answers.
Plenty of guests go on and won’t talk about certain things but, they’re at least engaging and go along with the process of the interview without looking and sounding like a shy 3 year old.
He’s 21 and about to make the biggest decision of his life. He’s trying not to slip up and make a mistake. I know you may not care about those things, but it happens all the time, and it usually never matters. If DG interviews him and doesn’t give answers, that’s a different story.
That’s lame excuse. How is he going to slip up by answering softball question like, “Who was your favorite player growing up?”
Hell, even his ‘promoting’ of Gatorade, one of the reasons he was on the show, was god awful. IIRC, he mumbled something like, “Yeah. Gatorade. Love it. Cool Blue is my favorite. “
Look, it’s very easy. All he or his reps had to do is say they don’t want to answer any questions about how he’s leaning. Some people probably would’ve balked at that and said thanks but no thanks. The bottom line is, the question is going to be continued to be asked until the decision is finally made. Him or his team not having a strategy in place to dodge them effectively at this point looks bad.
I think he’s a tremendous talent and, I’m not saying it’s a huge mark against him, but I also think it’s not something you can just brush off as, “Nothing to see here.”
And I'm also not the type of guy who wants to look smart more than I want the Giants to be good again. So, if they take Murray, I won't spend all year fighting it like people here pathetically did regarding Saquon because they couldn't get over him not being a QB.
I actually think Murray is super exciting. I wouldn't be angry if we took him as much as I'd just be concerned about how reliable he'd really be. I'd still get on board with it because I'm a bigger fan of the Giants than my ego.
That said - I've belabored this point about durability because I think Giants fans almost don't really remember what it's like to have that concern. We've had an iron man under center for 15 years now. He has been there as reliably as the sun rising in the east each day and I think we take that for granted and almost just sort of inherently assume we'll have similar luck going forward.
I don't actually believe all Giants fans are going to just assume no QB will ever get hurt again because of the luck we've had with Eli - I'm just saying that because of what we grew accustomed to for such a long time, I think most people here put the QB getting hurt risk on the backburner much more than perhaps fans of a team like Miami might, for example. Or any team who has been without their starter a bit recently.
I’m ready to move on to something non conventional. 2-3 years ago I never thought I’d say it, but I do now. I’d like to do something innovative, or try to. If we fail at it we are in no worse shape than we are now. I know jobs are at stake so it’s easier said than done, but it’s what I want as a fan.
Murray with Barkley and Beckham is very exciting - Engram can be part of that as well if we can work him in more and utilize his skillset.
And it would be fun to watch the Giants play an entirely different brand of ball than what we've seen for so many years.
I still prefer Haskins, but Murray is actually right behind him for me. I'm at a place where I'd rather take a risk on Murray than draft Daniel Jones or Drew Lock.
SHO'NUFF : 6:08 pm : link : reply
pass on a player because he doesn't fit the mold. They just love the safe picks, even when it comes to selecting a new GM and HC. Lot of good it's done us so far.
For all this talk about "safe" vs. "risky", the Giants are a bad team. They don't get magically better by being risky, because they not only have to hit on that risk, but they have to beat the probabilities.
I don't look at them as having been safe - I look at them as having been very poor at drafting.
Flowers was a risky pick. Apple was a risky pick. They were reaches who didn't pan out and look where we are in part because of it.
Reese's tenure was filled with high-risk players, whether it was from past injuries, reaching or playing lesser competition. JPP worked out fantastic. Tuck worked out.
But most of them didn't. And that's what should be expected.
The other fault in logic is that taking a flyer on "greatness" with Murray means that a "safe" pick doesn't have a shot at greatness. And that's been proven false time and again in the NFL.
It isn't about risk - it is about drafting good players.
Video - ( New Window )
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pass on a player because he doesn't fit the mold. They just love the safe picks, even when it comes to selecting a new GM and HC. Lot of good it's done us so far.
Yeah those four Lombardi's look terrible in the trophy case.
Are we still reaching for SBs we won how many years ago.. How have the Giants looked lately? Safe organization who make safe moves, Let’s draft a OT start Eli win 6 games and beat our chest about how classy we are.. The Giants way
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In comment 14283971 SHO'NUFF said:
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pass on a player because he doesn't fit the mold. They just love the safe picks, even when it comes to selecting a new GM and HC. Lot of good it's done us so far.
Yeah those four Lombardi's look terrible in the trophy case.
Are we still reaching for SBs we won how many years ago.. How have the Giants looked lately? Safe organization who make safe moves, Let’s draft a OT start Eli win 6 games and beat our chest about how classy we are.. The Giants way
I'm not reaching for anything. To say "lot of good it's done us so far" is way off base IMO and I'm simply point out how wrong that statement is.
The "Giants way" has won us fans four Super Bowls. That's a lot more than most teams,and I'll take that over being a fan of teams who've never even sniffed a SB win, let alone win four of them.
Haskins is a good QB but not great and has limited upside
Haskins is not a fast twitch or sudden player
He has slow footwork and a long delivery with a hitch
He is a prototype drop back passer but he does not have an extremely strong arm
He can extend plays with his strength but he is not explosive
Haskins upside is limited
It is not that I dislike Haskins , he just is not Murray
Murray has an unlimited upside based upon his skill set
There is risk in Kyler but I would rather take a chance on greatness
Might be the worst breakdown of what Haskins can do that I’ve read anywhere not just Bbi. Haskins has a very strong accurate arm. He does not extend plays at all with size or anything of te sort. Being tough to bring down is differnt from extending plays with strength. He never climbs the pocket he always bails out and rolls. He can throw on the run well. His footwork, especially under pressure, is terrible. His throwing motion does not have a hitch in it. He has a very quick release. I really question what your watching or who you’re getting information from. Either way it’s brutal. Carry on.
Please. It is a lame excuse and now you’re just making lame excuses for him. Some people don’t like answering questions on camera? Seriously? He knew what he was getting into with the two sport stuff. What’s he going to do if he decides to play in the NFL instead of MLB? Cameras will be in his face all the time, especially if he’s drafted in the first round. What will be the excuse then should he pull the same stuff?
I don't know how he'd be and he would be fun and exciting but- not as much as his height -- but his weight - he's a huge risk.
I'd be shocked if they took him at 6.
Great coaches don’t let up. Saban wasn’t letting OK score for the fuck of it. Give Murray and the coaches credit for adjusting, those things matter.
Great coaches don’t let up. Saban wasn’t letting OK score for the fuck of it. Give Murray and the coaches credit for adjusting, those things matter.
I don't think Saban was letting OUscore, he was just content once they got the big lead to let OU use clock to do it.
I also think the players on D didn't intentionally let up, they just gave in to human nature and like a lot of us, thought the game was over early. They did their jobs when needed early and once they got the big lead, lost that same edge and fire they came out with.
It's not what a fan would want to see but it's understandable IMO. I know I felt like changing the channel a few times during that game because I felt it was over early.
Brady was praised when down 28-3. Mahomes lit it up for 31 points 2 weeks ago in the 2nd half and probably should have won the game. No coach is going soft for that long a period of time. Murray had no turnovers either, it’s not like he gave the game away. Give the kid credit.
Haskins is a good QB but not great and has limited upside
Haskins is not a fast twitch or sudden player
He has slow footwork and a long delivery with a hitch
He is a prototype drop back passer but he does not have an extremely strong arm
He can extend plays with his strength but he is not explosive
Haskins upside is limited
It is not that I dislike Haskins , he just is not Murray
Murray has an unlimited upside based upon his skill set
There is risk in Kyler but I would rather take a chance on greatness
Such a one-sided, unfair characterization of Haskins. Based on this you would have passed on Mannings, Brees, Big BEn, Rivers, Marino, Brady, etc etc. I don't want a "fast twitch" QB. I want a QB who has size so he can see the whole field, is mobile enough to buy time but not necessarily a runner, a big arm, and an accurate arm. Keep your "fast twitch" desire for RB and WR.
Brady was praised when down 28-3. Mahomes lit it up for 31 points 2 weeks ago in the 2nd half and probably should have won the game. No coach is going soft for that long a period of time. Murray had no turnovers either, it’s not like he gave the game away. Give the kid credit.
It would be a lot easier for me to give him some credit if he did anything in the first quarter when it was still a game. Even one score against Bama's D when they were going full bore mentally as well as physically would do it for me.
He obviously made a lot of plays in the game but I just have a nagging type feeling it happened when it didn't matter anymore. I'm not saying I'm 100% right on that, it's just my impression from watching that game play out.
I do agree no coach, especially Saban is going to make it easy for a team to score even if using clock. That said, I also think he saw how his O could pretty much score whenever they needed or wanted to, and that played into his thinking for his D as well.
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In comment 14283576 Sy'56 said:
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Not exactly. I don't think he is an NFL QB and that opinion will stay. He is a fun player to watch, but so was Eric Crouch.
Eric Crouch is a tough comp. Crouch threw for 1,500 yards his Heisman year, Kyler threw for ~4,000. Murray also has a far superior arm to Crouch.
Right. Except when they went with a rookie HC in mcadoo or when they hired coughlin much to the chagrin of many so called experts or when they drafted Barkley, a RB, when the entire free world was going ape shit about taking a qb or when they traded up for Eli and took tons of abuse or when they signed Kerry Collins who was basically toxic or Christian Peter or when they signed Burress to a FA deal even though he was considered a bit dangerous or risky or how they outspent the entire NFL in FA during the 2015-2016 offseason.
Yeah, all they do is take the safe route.
I'm not sure where you're getting that, at least not from anything I've said.
I simply said I would've liked to see him perform as well in the beginning of the game when it mattered and was still a game, and not just when the game for all intents and purposes was over.
You're free to take whatever analysis of his play from that game as you want. The same as the rest of us are, but the fact is he did diddly squat when it mattered, and that's my biggest knock on him from that game.
As I said before we aren’t going to agree on this, I just can’t really see your POV. If we go back to Mayfields last game (a loss to Georgia) or all of the lackluster games that Darnold and Rosen played, what exactly is the problem with Murray’s bad quarter in regards to his draft standing?
As I said before we aren’t going to agree on this, I just can’t really see your POV. If we go back to Mayfields last game (a loss to Georgia) or all of the lackluster games that Darnold and Rosen played, what exactly is the problem with Murray’s bad quarter in regards to his draft standing?
I think maybe you're reading something into my posts that aren't actually there. I never said we shouldn't draft him or even consider drafting him or that game should affect his draft status.
I only said I agreed with arc about not giving him a lot of credit for the Bama game. Had he played well out of the chute I wouldn't hesitate giving him credit for that game but that's not what happened.
I just don't give him as much credit for his 2nd half as you and others do, because I felt it came in what was an already decided game, that's all. Nothing more, nothing less. Not whether he should play in the NFL, if he can, where he should be drafted or anything else. I was just giving my opinion on how I looked at his performance in that game.
I would've been a helluva lot more impressed had he done anything early, (he only completed one of five passes in the first 17 minutes) and even more so if they were as ill prepared as you think they might've been. Personally, I'm not buying that as I think they were more outclassed than out coached or prepared.