Kyler Murray

I would keep Eli as well and go into the season with Murray as the #2 QB and use him in packages as the Ravens did with Lamar Jackson. This would allow Murray time to add bulk to his frame while learning the offense.

Once he is exposed to NFL defenses it would become readily apparent he is not the franchise qb and the Giants would become the Browns, brining in used up has beens and never were's and drafting a qb every year.

20-30 pounds?

Unfortunately, the Giants have only 2 starting caliber NFL players on the offensive line under contract, Solder and Hernandez.

There has to be a lot of progress at C, RG, and RT.

Or they will be easily stopped.

In comment 14283447 SterlingArcher said:

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Once he is exposed to NFL defenses it would become readily apparent he is not the franchise qb and the Giants would become the Browns, brining in used up has beens and never were's and drafting a qb every year.

+1000 - He was awful in the Alabama game the first real defense he saw all year. Big 12 isn't known for their D

will be soon enough to see his height and weight.

If he's 5'9" and 185 as rumored, that's 30 pounds lighter than most of the QB's he's generally compared to.

it will create a whole new dynamic, and the only question from there is health. I say fuck it, draft him and take advantage of him with Barkley and Beckham in their primes.

I don't think there's any question about his preference to play football over baseball. He not only seems to like football better but if successful he's got the opportunity to make way more money in the short term in the NFL, possibly long term too.

and not 6 or 7? Why not 10? Absolutely hate those posts.

We stink now and have been for the better part of 7 years now, so what's the difference?

if you believe listed weights online.

Brees 209 (hard for me to believe)

Wilson 206

Murray 194

In comment 14283454 FatMan in Charlotte said:

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will be soon enough to see his height and weight. If he's 5'9" and 185 as rumored, that's 30 pounds lighter than most of the QB's he's generally compared to.

I'm a little lighter than that. Haha. Same height, but a little lighter than 185.

Do it for us little guys, Kyler! But in all seriousness, I wouldn't even consider Kyler at 6. Not even for a second.

In comment 14283450 Big Blue '56 said:

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20-30 pounds?

Wilson weighed 205 when he was drafted, 9 lbs. heavier than Murray is listed at right now. And Wilson was 24 years old when he was drafted. We will see what Murray measures out at combine but comparing what a grown Wilson weighs today to what Murray weighs as a 21 year old is a bit disingenuous. Wilson wasn’t much bigger when drafted, and 3 years older.

to build an offense that takes advantage of his skill set.
They will look for a QB that fits their system.
Part of the reason why I am not a fan of either one.

Zero doubt in my mind Murray can play. I'd be excited about the prospect of him here. But I'd just be counting down the snaps until he wound up on the sideline.

I really don't think he's any heavier than 190 right now. 185-190 is probably more likely.

Murray has to move to be effective in the NFL. No one is going to turn him into a pocket passer and have it work.

I just keep going back to the fact that the last 2 QB's standing again are pure pocket guys that teams basically have zero concern with as far as running. I think Goff fumbled like 12 times this year actually.. so McVay definitely doesn't want him running around outside the pocket with the ball.

Last year it was Brady and Foles.

Then it was Brady and Ryan.

Wilson and Kaepernick are literally the only two guys in this type of QB mold who have made it that far in decades.

I realize the league evolves and changes and that players like this were less common years ago - the rules are also slanted in a way where a player like Murray is more viable now than he otherwise may have been in the past.

But I still just think it's a risk and would rather hitch my wagon to Haskins. I am more confident in him being a QB we can rely on.

To take a chance on anyone or anything at 6. They need to go with what player they see as close to a sure thing as possible IMO.

If that's Murray, then fine but they can't be rolling the dice with this pick.

One year to figure out if he can really play.

If he starts with baseball, it is 2 or 3 years before he will get to the major league level. His college stats were solid but not outstanding.

I'm just warming to this pick. It was the Alabama game that started me
on this path.

Everything was heading south in the first half. I was very impressed
with how he reacted, and led his offense to a much stronger
second half.

I agree that he can fit and expand our offense of moving pockets and QB sprint outs.

It may be too much of an outside the box move for our Giants, but I
believe it has real possibilities.

I would keep and start Eli, then see how things develop. It would be a lot of fun to watch. Must see TV!

He was small as a college QB and will be tiny in the NFL.

I don't think the NFL is going to work out for the guy.

.

In comment 14283453 Giantsfan79 said:

Quote:

In comment 14283447 SterlingArcher said: Quote: Once he is exposed to NFL defenses it would become readily apparent he is not the franchise qb and the Giants would become the Browns, brining in used up has beens and never were's and drafting a qb every year. +1000 - He was awful in the Alabama game the first real defense he saw all year. Big 12 isn't known for their D

I'll agree the Big12 isn't known for their D.... but Murray didn't play 'awful' vs 'Bama

19/37 308 2 TD Passing
17/109 1 TD Rushing

He didn't start out good, lots of incompletions, but after the 1st qtr, he was pretty damn good.

I'm hesitant to give Murray much credit for the Bama game. Most of his numbers came when the game had already more or less been decided. When it was still early and up for grabs, he was really unimpressive and struggled.

In comment 14283486 Eman11 said:

Quote:

To take a chance on anyone or anything at 6. They need to go with what player they see as close to a sure thing as possible IMO. If that's Murray, then fine but they can't be rolling the dice with this pick.

+1,000

In comment 14283491 ATL_Giants said:

Quote:

He was small as a college QB and will be tiny in the NFL. I don't think the NFL is going to work out for the guy.

He won't be any smaller in the NFL than he was in college and he's done pretty well there. Where do you think NFL players come from?

Put me down for Murray.

After years of watching Reese fumble the draft, picking for need is no longer an option, IMO. If the BPA happens to be a 'need', so much the better, but acquire as much talent as possible, regardless of 'need'.

At QB with 6th pick I rather swing for the fences of greatness and take Murray then Haskins. However I doubt shurmur sees either of these guys fitting his system

In comment 14283494 Bramton1 said:

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.

Like Brady?

In comment 14283484 arcarsenal said:

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Zero doubt in my mind Murray can play. I'd be excited about the prospect of him here. But I'd just be counting down the snaps until he wound up on the sideline. I really don't think he's any heavier than 190 right now. 185-190 is probably more likely. Murray has to move to be effective in the NFL. No one is going to turn him into a pocket passer and have it work. I just keep going back to the fact that the last 2 QB's standing again are pure pocket guys that teams basically have zero concern with as far as running. I think Goff fumbled like 12 times this year actually.. so McVay definitely doesn't want him running around outside the pocket with the ball. Last year it was Brady and Foles. Then it was Brady and Ryan. Wilson and Kaepernick are literally the only two guys in this type of QB mold who have made it that far in decades. I realize the league evolves and changes and that players like this were less common years ago - the rules are also slanted in a way where a player like Murray is more viable now than he otherwise may have been in the past. But I still just think it's a risk and would rather hitch my wagon to Haskins. I am more confident in him being a QB we can rely on.

Newton was in the SB.

And Murray sounds closer to Wilson (or McNabb/McNair) than Kaepernick/Vick/Lamar Jackson with his passing ability and ability to read defenses. His scouting reports read more like a (very) mobile pocket passer than a run first QB that needs to learn to read defenses.

In comment 14283458 UConn4523 said:

Quote:

and not 6 or 7? Why not 10? Absolutely hate those posts. We stink now and have been for the better part of 7 years now, so what's the difference?

15 years we'll look back and say...."man those Omameh & Stewart contracts still kill us"

are ignoring the most important aspect of that game and that was the adjustments made. He also put 400+ yards by himself on that defense as well as 34 points.

I'm fine with anyone who thinks he's too small. But he has a lot of what you can't teach, and is accurate enough to make the NFL required throws. That's on top of being absolutely electric.

I too would rather risk it with him than settle on a lesser talented player.

Putting aside what Shurmur's system really involves, Shurmur's offense was quite successful with the semi-mobile Keenum two years ago. PS designed lots of roll-outs and constantly moved the pocket to aid the Vikes poor OL. Shurmur's also made comments since the season ended about a mobile QB being preferable as it opens up more options.

If you go back further (or look at Eli this year), perhaps the most important thing for Shurmur is accuracy. IIRC, Bradford set a record in 2016 for comp% and Eli just shattered his previous career high in that regards. At least from his college stats, it would appear Murray excels in this regards (69% this past season).

In comment 14283455 UConn4523 said:

Quote:

it will create a whole new dynamic, and the only question from there is health. I say fuck it, draft him and take advantage of him with Barkley and Beckham in their primes. I don't think there's any question about his preference to play football over baseball. He not only seems to like football better but if successful he's got the opportunity to make way more money in the short term in the NFL, possibly long term too.

I am fully on board with this. I think it's time to stop looking at the QB position as needing to get a guy like Eli for the next 15 years. If you think he can be effective for 5 years, bring him in and take advantage of his unique skill set while OBJ and Barkley are in their primes.

If he is ineffective or oft injured, you will be drafting high again in a few years and then you get another cost controlled QB and you adapt the offense to what he is does best.

guy has the quickness to avoid the big hits. He looks like he can be special. Seems like he fits better into the new NFL than he would have in the past. I think he would make the Giants a better team.

Still way too soon to know if he is a worthwhile pick at #6.

In comment 14283516 giants#1 said:

Quote:

In comment 14283484 arcarsenal said: Quote: Zero doubt in my mind Murray can play. I'd be excited about the prospect of him here. But I'd just be counting down the snaps until he wound up on the sideline. I really don't think he's any heavier than 190 right now. 185-190 is probably more likely. Murray has to move to be effective in the NFL. No one is going to turn him into a pocket passer and have it work. I just keep going back to the fact that the last 2 QB's standing again are pure pocket guys that teams basically have zero concern with as far as running. I think Goff fumbled like 12 times this year actually.. so McVay definitely doesn't want him running around outside the pocket with the ball. Last year it was Brady and Foles. Then it was Brady and Ryan. Wilson and Kaepernick are literally the only two guys in this type of QB mold who have made it that far in decades. I realize the league evolves and changes and that players like this were less common years ago - the rules are also slanted in a way where a player like Murray is more viable now than he otherwise may have been in the past. But I still just think it's a risk and would rather hitch my wagon to Haskins. I am more confident in him being a QB we can rely on. Newton was in the SB. And Murray sounds closer to Wilson (or McNabb/McNair) than Kaepernick/Vick/Lamar Jackson with his passing ability and ability to read defenses. His scouting reports read more like a (very) mobile pocket passer than a run first QB that needs to learn to read defenses.

Newton is huge, though. It's not even worth comparing. And even he has taken a massive beating over the years. His body seems like it's falling apart.

I agree Murray is more like Wilson than Kaepernick - I'm just illustrating that pure pocket passers are the guys who keep winding up in Super Bowls despite this same "revolutionary" argument that keeps managing to pop up each year.

Murray can play. But anyone denying the risks associated with the size and style of play just aren't being honest.

and more concerned with whether or not Gettleman has the stones to hitch his wagon to such a risky pick, especially after all of his talk about how if you pick a QB you better pick right. How much do you trust your scouting department?

chance we draft him

He's really short, and throwing over these massive lineman will be an issue. Plus everyone is bigger, faster, and hits harder. Basically all the things he did in college to be successful will be minimized/taken away in the pro's. I bet after a short period of getting thrown around like a doll, and not having much success, he will run back to baseball as fast as he can

Way too many variables to take him at 6, variables that go beyond his height. However, teams would be foolish to remove him from their board. I think he'll be there at the bottom 3rd of the first round and that's the point in the draft the Giants should be aggressively working the phones to grab him.

seems to be pretty risk adverse in round 1, especially top 10. Ultra talented kid, but he would be a massive risk with his size.

If the Giants select a QB with the 6th pick I would prefer Murray.

I do not think that the other QBs have the potential upside or physical skills that Murray has.

He has a strong arm, he is an accurate passer, he can throw from many platforms, he can throw from the pocket, he can throw on the run, he is scary as a runner, has a very fast release, he is a winner, and he is a legend in Texas for his high school play.

If the Giants take a QB with their first pick it should be Murray. All of the other QBs are pedestrian and lack the physical,skills to be great.

but it didn't look like Murray was on the set with Golic & Wingo. Were Golic's comments based on meeting Murray at some point in Atlanta?

Another thing about Murray - his hands appear small and his arms appear short. Maybe it's just TV, but everything just seems to be below average...even for this new NFL.

If he chooses football and goes to the Combine, it's going to be fascinating what all of his measurables are.

In comment 14283550 PatersonPlank said:

Quote:

He's really short, and throwing over these massive lineman will be an issue. Plus everyone is bigger, faster, and hits harder. Basically all the things he did in college to be successful will be minimized/taken away in the pro's. I bet after a short period of getting thrown around like a doll, and not having much success, he will run back to baseball as fast as he can

See that just isn't true. Why will it just all of a sudden be taken away from him in the pros? Will he no longer be faster than everyone? Sure the competition is a lot better, but so should the players around him. Did he play with a Barkley or Beckham in college?

Again, the size/injury risk is real, I'll never argue anyone who's scared off by that. But some of the other stuff that's getting thrown around just isn't true and/or can't be proven at all.

Brees is 6ft. And he's not a running QB. Just no comparison there.

Wilson is probably the better comparison.

In comment 14283500 arcarsenal said:

Quote:

I'm hesitant to give Murray much credit for the Bama game. Most of his numbers came when the game had already more or less been decided. When it was still early and up for grabs, he was really unimpressive and struggled.

Once again arc I'm in complete agreement with you. Murray didn't do anything until the game was already lost. Even though that was early in the game he had opportunities to keep his team in it early and did nothing.

Yes he brought them back somewhat in the 2nd half and put up some impressive numbers but I felt all the while Bama had taken their foot off the gas. If he had done anything early I would feel differently but right or wrong I feel the numbers he put up in that game were pretty much when the game was already lost.

In comment 14283544 arcarsenal said:

Quote:

I agree Murray is more like Wilson than Kaepernick - I'm just illustrating that pure pocket passers are the guys who keep winding up in Super Bowls despite this same "revolutionary" argument that keeps managing to pop up each year. Murray can play. But anyone denying the risks associated with the size and style of play just aren't being honest.

I agree the "revolutionary" argument is pure BS and would have no interest in a QB like Lamar Jackson. But from what I read, Murray is a pass first QB that can run like Wentz/Wilson/Luck.

There's definitely a higher injury risk even with that style than a pure pocket passer like Eli, but if he's smart about how and when he runs (more Wilson than Wentz) then he can have a long career in the league. I don't think you want your QB taking 8-10 hits/game, but a QB with escapability that can extend plays is a plus, and a QB that can take advantage of an overly aggressive D with a run option (see Dak against the Giants) or take off and pick up 10+ yards when the D is in man coverage is a major plus.

In comment 14283564 Eman11 said:

Quote:

In comment 14283500 arcarsenal said: Quote: I'm hesitant to give Murray much credit for the Bama game. Most of his numbers came when the game had already more or less been decided. When it was still early and up for grabs, he was really unimpressive and struggled. Once again arc I'm in complete agreement with you. Murray didn't do anything until the game was already lost. Even though that was early in the game he had opportunities to keep his team in it early and did nothing. Yes he brought them back somewhat in the 2nd half and put up some impressive numbers but I felt all the while Bama had taken their foot off the gas. If he had done anything early I would feel differently but right or wrong I feel the numbers he put up in that game were pretty much when the game was already lost.

Yup. OU's defense couldn't stop Bama's offense... they just kept going right down the field and scoring. Murray couldn't keep up and the game got out of reach quickly.

Bama had already backed off by the time he started putting up numbers and points. They knew OU wasn't going to stop them, so all they were doing was giving up yards and trying to prevent OU from quick scores that could get them back within reach.

In comment 14283552 ryanmkeane said:

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seems to be pretty risk adverse in round 1, especially top 10. Ultra talented kid, but he would be a massive risk with his size.

They made one pick and selected one of the most highly ranked prospects ever.

But I will be honest, it would be exciting and fun to watch

In comment 14283550 PatersonPlank said:

Quote:

He's really short, and throwing over these massive lineman will be an issue.

This is the sort of thing that has been repeated over and over again for so many years that its stated as a fact, when its never been proven.

You do know that college linemen are massive as well, right? You do know that college linemen become NFL linemen, and that they don't keep getting taller?

is a short-term gain vs. a long-term one. Cam Newton is only 29 years old and has taken 8 years of punishment and he's been breaking down and many believe he's going to quickly slide from here. Carson Wentz has missed 12 games the past two seasons.

The risk of the QB getting hurt exists for all of them, but the downsize is what happens when it knocks out the #6 pick in the draft and one you build around? Look at Indy after Luck was out.

You are one hit away from Lauletta playing. The Redskins were fortunate that Cousins was on the roster. The RGIII pick was toast after one season (a playoff season), then they faced having a first round pick shelved and the void that causes to a roster. They are still looking for a QB.

What if Murray delivers us a playoff berth and then suffers the same fate?

this guy is too little and he stinks...flashback Tarkington, Mayfield, Flutie...etc if this is the case he would been sitting the bench in college instead of being named the best player in the nation....but pricks will be pricks plus they never played the game...

for not having the team more prepared on offense in the first half or is this just a Murray thing? He played a bad first quarter and then recovered instead of folding like a lawnchair, that's a good thing.

Throws a terrific ball.

The measurables may trump all that, but from what I see, Murray is almost like having an extra player on the field.

.

In comment 14283582 FatMan in Charlotte said:

Quote:

is a short-term gain vs. a long-term one. Cam Newton is only 29 years old and has taken 8 years of punishment and he's been breaking down and many believe he's going to quickly slide from here. Carson Wentz has missed 12 games the past two seasons. The risk of the QB getting hurt exists for all of them, but the downsize is what happens when it knocks out the #6 pick in the draft and one you build around? Look at Indy after Luck was out. You are one hit away from Lauletta playing. The Redskins were fortunate that Cousins was on the roster. The RGIII pick was toast after one season (a playoff season), then they faced having a first round pick shelved and the void that causes to a roster. They are still looking for a QB. What if Murray delivers us a playoff berth and then suffers the same fate?

Than that sucks for us. I just see it this way, would you rather that or spin your wheels (potentially) on a lesser talented QB that isn't good enough but happens to not get injured?

I know what my answer is. I don't want a Dalton. I'd rather an RG3 (without the trade up).

this team desperately needs to fortify the trenches, on both sides of the los

In comment 14283576 Sy'56 said:

Quote:

But I will be honest, it would be exciting and fun to watch

I see you’ve moved off of your “his best position is a third down back in the NFL”. I respect your opinion, but I completely disagree with it. Murray is going to be an unbelievable NFL QB. I disagree with those posters who think they just gave up and let OU score. OU did what they did all season: move up and down the field. And what was because of Murray. Did you guys even watch some of the throws he made in that game? 55 yard bombs on a dead sprint, right on the money. You think he hit that because Alabama had given up? Stop.

This kid is a 70% passer and was deadly in the last three quarters of that game. He might be the fastest player invited to the combine. That combination is something we’ve never seen before. I have no idea how a player like that is of limited upside. Because he’s a shade under 5’10”? No way. People will disagree with me - and that is fine - but Murray will be a star.

it is an interesting debate.

I'd want better than Dalton, but I'd almost rather have a 10-15 rated QB that can have consistency with weapons like OBJ and Barkley instead of a high ceiling guy who gets injured and derails a season or longer.

Picking Flowers so high was a big miss, an indeed it set the franchise back. The risk of missing at 6 isn’t only relegated to quarterback

In comment 14283582 FatMan in Charlotte said:

Quote:

is a short-term gain vs. a long-term one. Cam Newton is only 29 years old and has taken 8 years of punishment and he's been breaking down and many believe he's going to quickly slide from here. Carson Wentz has missed 12 games the past two seasons. The risk of the QB getting hurt exists for all of them, but the downsize is what happens when it knocks out the #6 pick in the draft and one you build around? Look at Indy after Luck was out. You are one hit away from Lauletta playing. The Redskins were fortunate that Cousins was on the roster. The RGIII pick was toast after one season (a playoff season), then they faced having a first round pick shelved and the void that causes to a roster. They are still looking for a QB. What if Murray delivers us a playoff berth and then suffers the same fate?

Injury can befall anyone. The biggest QBs in the league got hurt this year. The smallest ones - Brees and Wilson - did not. Murray may be tiny, but it doesn’t necessarily result in a direct correlation to health.

In comment 14283454 FatMan in Charlotte said:

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will be soon enough to see his height and weight. If he's 5'9" and 185 as rumored, that's 30 pounds lighter than most of the QB's he's generally compared to.

This is a good point FMiC. I had mentioned it in a thread a few weeks ago, but there was a lot riding on Mayfield and his measurables leading up to the combine last year and when he clocked in at 6', the debate was no longer about his height, but how high he might go in the draft.

Now, with Murray, he is not going to magically put on 25 plus pounds of muscle, but the height is definitely going to play a big factor.

I could have sworn that Murray had "official" height and weight numbers out there after one of the baseball select showcases, but I can't find it anywhere on the internet. Maybe it just a rumor.

Brutal interview. Almost mumbled through the whole thing and didn’t answer man questions.

In comment 14283608 Hsilwek92 said:

Quote:

Brutal interview. Almost mumbled through the whole thing and didn’t answer man questions.

He was very eloquent in his interviews yesterday. As far as his size, the OU training department released his official height - which it measured before the football season - at 5’ 9 7/8”. I don’t know his weight. But unless they seriously messed up his height, I don’t think it’s in question.

In comment 14283602 joeinpa said:

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Picking Flowers so high was a big miss, an indeed it set the franchise back. The risk of missing at 6 isn’t only relegated to quarterback

But there's many reasons for that. A lot of it had to do with still building around Eli and was compounded by not moving him or cutting him or replacing him for over 3 years. The Giants could have mitigated the situation any number of ways and either failed or flat out didn't look into any of them.

Well run, well coached teams can't get past bad picks. Not saying its easy, but Flowers, Apple, etc aren't why we are where we are, its much bigger than them.

I think his size is going to be a non-starter for them. I think Eric mentioned it a while back, the Giants organization generally speaking has a requirement for size needed to play certain positions. I can't see them spending the #6 pick on a QB who won't be within shouting distance of that.

In comment 14283608 Hsilwek92 said:

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Brutal interview. Almost mumbled through the whole thing and didn’t answer man questions.

Yep, I heard it as well. Awful job there by him.

Not saying that should by itself affect his draft status. But man, he sounded like an idiot...

heights are notoriously off base. And they have an incentive for them to be off base.

The combine will be here soon enough with the official height, but referencing what OU supposedly measured him at shouldn't be taken as fact. The also list him at 194 when he's regarded to be in the 185 range.

In comment 14283612 UConn4523 said:

Quote:

In comment 14283602 joeinpa said: Quote: Picking Flowers so high was a big miss, an indeed it set the franchise back. The risk of missing at 6 isn’t only relegated to quarterback But there's many reasons for that. A lot of it had to do with still building around Eli and was compounded by not moving him or cutting him or replacing him for over 3 years. The Giants could have mitigated the situation any number of ways and either failed or flat out didn't look into any of them. Well run, well coached teams can't get past bad picks. Not saying its easy, but Flowers, Apple, etc aren't why we are where we are, its much bigger than them.

Lack of drafting success has to be the #1 reason though.

to be gambling with the #6 pick. DG knows that. Given the risks with Kyler's size there is no way I see them drafting him at 6.

In comment 14283617 speedywheels said:

Quote:

In comment 14283608 Hsilwek92 said: Quote: Brutal interview. Almost mumbled through the whole thing and didn’t answer man questions. Yep, I heard it as well. Awful job there by him. Not saying that should by itself affect his draft status. But man, he sounded like an idiot...

I dont think he sounded like an idiot, I think he sounded like a kid who has a huge decision to make and is probably sick of people trying to pry something out of him when he obviously really doesnt want to discuss it yet. He just had a similar interview on Rich Eisen.

In comment 14283596 Giants38 said:

Quote:

In comment 14283576 Sy'56 said: Quote: But I will be honest, it would be exciting and fun to watch I see you’ve moved off of your “his best position is a third down back in the NFL”. I respect your opinion, but I completely disagree with it. Murray is going to be an unbelievable NFL QB. I disagree with those posters who think they just gave up and let OU score. OU did what they did all season: move up and down the field. And what was because of Murray. Did you guys even watch some of the throws he made in that game? 55 yard bombs on a dead sprint, right on the money. You think he hit that because Alabama had given up? Stop. This kid is a 70% passer and was deadly in the last three quarters of that game. He might be the fastest player invited to the combine. That combination is something we’ve never seen before. I have no idea how a player like that is of limited upside. Because he’s a shade under 5’10”? No way. People will disagree with me - and that is fine - but Murray will be a star.

Not exactly. I don't think he is an NFL QB and that opinion will stay. He is a fun player to watch, but so was Eric Crouch.

don't know but I'd like to see him kick down to 6 so the Giants FO at least has the choice.

In comment 14283660 John In CO said:

Quote:

In comment 14283617 speedywheels said: Quote: In comment 14283608 Hsilwek92 said: Quote: Brutal interview. Almost mumbled through the whole thing and didn’t answer man questions. Yep, I heard it as well. Awful job there by him. Not saying that should by itself affect his draft status. But man, he sounded like an idiot... I dont think he sounded like an idiot, I think he sounded like a kid who has a huge decision to make and is probably sick of people trying to pry something out of him when he obviously really doesnt want to discuss it yet. He just had a similar interview on Rich Eisen.

You know what, that's too F'ing bad. Nobody is going to have you on the be a pitchman for Gatorade without asking you the only questions that matter. Nobody put a gun to his head to take Gatorade's money and agree to the Radio Row media tour.

Whoever is representing him on the football side needs to have him prepared for this. The Gatorade pitch comes at the beginning and end of the interview - in the middle there are actually going to be questions about your job.

didnt murray have the same/similar stats to mayfield? how come people werent oh but mayfield played in a conference with no defense?

the FACT is murray is a special talent and if he was 3 inches taller, he would be the #1 pick with ease. the kid is insanely explosive and makes throws on the run as if its easy to do. kid can play and i believe he will be a solid player in the NFL.

im gonna wait for the combine to get his official measurements but if he comes in at 5'9 195...im not gonna cry if they take him at 6....thats only 11 pounds lighter than brees and an inch shorter than mayfield.
i think BBI may be seriously overrating this small of a size difference. now if he comes in at 180 and below 5'8 thats a little more of a concern that i understand.
that being said, this kid can play and i think some team is going to be happy with him and how he plays at the next level

In comment 14283622 FatMan in Charlotte said:

Quote:

heights are notoriously off base. And they have an incentive for them to be off base. The combine will be here soon enough with the official height, but referencing what OU supposedly measured him at shouldn't be taken as fact. The also list him at 194 when he's regarded to be in the 185 range.

They tweeted out what his height was. That’s a dumb thing to do if you think your measurement is off.

In any event, I saw the Dan Patrick interview, and it was terrible. He was unprepared for the questions. I don’t know why he hasn’t made a firm decision on which sport to play at this point. It’s a terrible look for him. As much as I want the Giants to take him, it’s hard to get behind a selection like that when it appears he lacks conviction to play one sport over the other.

And Sy, I don’t see how you can realistically compare him to Crouch. Crouch was a terrible passer at Nebraska who was immediately asked to convert to WR and never played an NFL down. Murray should not be mentioned in the same breath as that guy. You are simply not properly evaluating Murray’s ability as a passer, and it is puzzling considering his numbers were historically good last year. And, no, I don’t think it was due to the fact that he was playing in the Big 12.

In the end, it may not matter, as it appears he may still elect to play baseball anyway.

In comment 14283727 BleedBlue said:

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didnt murray have the same/similar stats to mayfield? how come people werent oh but mayfield played in a conference with no defense? the FACT is murray is a special talent and if he was 3 inches taller, he would be the #1 pick with ease. the kid is insanely explosive and makes throws on the run as if its easy to do. kid can play and i believe he will be a solid player in the NFL. im gonna wait for the combine to get his official measurements but if he comes in at 5'9 195...im not gonna cry if they take him at 6....thats only 11 pounds lighter than brees and an inch shorter than mayfield. i think BBI may be seriously overrating this small of a size difference. now if he comes in at 180 and below 5'8 thats a little more of a concern that i understand. that being said, this kid can play and i think some team is going to be happy with him and how he plays at the next level

Starting a sentence with "the FACT" and a few words later hypothesizing about where he'd go if he were 3 inches taller doesn't work.

He's NOT 3 inches taller and he's not getting any taller between now and ever. Maybe he'll grow a quarter of an inch. But he's certainly not adding 3.

I don't understand this argument. If grandma had balls, she'd be grandpa. Murray is the size he is. He can add some weight and probably will, but he's not going to grow any more.

In comment 14283737 arcarsenal said:

Quote:

In comment 14283727 BleedBlue said: Quote: didnt murray have the same/similar stats to mayfield? how come people werent oh but mayfield played in a conference with no defense? the FACT is murray is a special talent and if he was 3 inches taller, he would be the #1 pick with ease. the kid is insanely explosive and makes throws on the run as if its easy to do. kid can play and i believe he will be a solid player in the NFL. im gonna wait for the combine to get his official measurements but if he comes in at 5'9 195...im not gonna cry if they take him at 6....thats only 11 pounds lighter than brees and an inch shorter than mayfield. i think BBI may be seriously overrating this small of a size difference. now if he comes in at 180 and below 5'8 thats a little more of a concern that i understand. that being said, this kid can play and i think some team is going to be happy with him and how he plays at the next level Starting a sentence with "the FACT" and a few words later hypothesizing about where he'd go if he were 3 inches taller doesn't work. He's NOT 3 inches taller and he's not getting any taller between now and ever. Maybe he'll grow a quarter of an inch. But he's certainly not adding 3. I don't understand this argument. If grandma had balls, she'd be grandpa. Murray is the size he is. He can add some weight and probably will, but he's not going to grow any more.

the fact ist hat he is a special talent....are you arguing that? the kid was the best player in college football. he is a PROFESSIONAL two sport athlete and first round pick in both. he was one of the fastest players in the nation and that will show at combine. again..the fact is his is a special talent, sure the 3 inches thing is what if but the facti pointed out was that he is special

RGIV.

Haskins has a rifle arm, quick release, and prototypical size. Dwayne is a very accurate passer. He has the physical tools to be a franchise QB.

In comment 14283722 rsjem1979 said:

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In comment 14283660 John In CO said: Quote: In comment 14283617 speedywheels said: Quote: In comment 14283608 Hsilwek92 said: Quote: Brutal interview. Almost mumbled through the whole thing and didn’t answer man questions. Yep, I heard it as well. Awful job there by him. Not saying that should by itself affect his draft status. But man, he sounded like an idiot... I dont think he sounded like an idiot, I think he sounded like a kid who has a huge decision to make and is probably sick of people trying to pry something out of him when he obviously really doesnt want to discuss it yet. He just had a similar interview on Rich Eisen. You know what, that's too F'ing bad. Nobody is going to have you on the be a pitchman for Gatorade without asking you the only questions that matter. Nobody put a gun to his head to take Gatorade's money and agree to the Radio Row media tour. Whoever is representing him on the football side needs to have him prepared for this. The Gatorade pitch comes at the beginning and end of the interview - in the middle there are actually going to be questions about your job.

Dan Patrick was at first manipulative trying for him to make news against his own interest. So that was awkward. But then Patrick just starting making fun of the fact that the situation was awkward and piled on.

The kid is going to take advice from his agent, he is not going to comment about baseball in case he wants to use it like Elway did or is truly undecided. If Dan Patrick thinks he is going to spill everything on his radio show, then he is just trying to manipulate him for his own benefit.

The height discussion was ridiculous.

Bad interview. Murray comes off fine.

In comment 14283788 DonQuixote said:

Quote:

In comment 14283722 rsjem1979 said: Quote: In comment 14283660 John In CO said: Quote: In comment 14283617 speedywheels said: Quote: In comment 14283608 Hsilwek92 said: Quote: Brutal interview. Almost mumbled through the whole thing and didn’t answer man questions. Yep, I heard it as well. Awful job there by him. Not saying that should by itself affect his draft status. But man, he sounded like an idiot... I dont think he sounded like an idiot, I think he sounded like a kid who has a huge decision to make and is probably sick of people trying to pry something out of him when he obviously really doesnt want to discuss it yet. He just had a similar interview on Rich Eisen. You know what, that's too F'ing bad. Nobody is going to have you on the be a pitchman for Gatorade without asking you the only questions that matter. Nobody put a gun to his head to take Gatorade's money and agree to the Radio Row media tour. Whoever is representing him on the football side needs to have him prepared for this. The Gatorade pitch comes at the beginning and end of the interview - in the middle there are actually going to be questions about your job. Dan Patrick was at first manipulative trying for him to make news against his own interest. So that was awkward. But then Patrick just starting making fun of the fact that the situation was awkward and piled on. The kid is going to take advice from his agent, he is not going to comment about baseball in case he wants to use it like Elway did or is truly undecided. If Dan Patrick thinks he is going to spill everything on his radio show, then he is just trying to manipulate him for his own benefit. The height discussion was ridiculous. Bad interview. Murray comes off fine.

just watched and i agree

In comment 14283743 BleedBlue said:

Quote:

In comment 14283737 arcarsenal said: Quote: In comment 14283727 BleedBlue said: Quote: didnt murray have the same/similar stats to mayfield? how come people werent oh but mayfield played in a conference with no defense? the FACT is murray is a special talent and if he was 3 inches taller, he would be the #1 pick with ease. the kid is insanely explosive and makes throws on the run as if its easy to do. kid can play and i believe he will be a solid player in the NFL. im gonna wait for the combine to get his official measurements but if he comes in at 5'9 195...im not gonna cry if they take him at 6....thats only 11 pounds lighter than brees and an inch shorter than mayfield. i think BBI may be seriously overrating this small of a size difference. now if he comes in at 180 and below 5'8 thats a little more of a concern that i understand. that being said, this kid can play and i think some team is going to be happy with him and how he plays at the next level Starting a sentence with "the FACT" and a few words later hypothesizing about where he'd go if he were 3 inches taller doesn't work. He's NOT 3 inches taller and he's not getting any taller between now and ever. Maybe he'll grow a quarter of an inch. But he's certainly not adding 3. I don't understand this argument. If grandma had balls, she'd be grandpa. Murray is the size he is. He can add some weight and probably will, but he's not going to grow any more. the fact ist hat he is a special talent....are you arguing that? the kid was the best player in college football. he is a PROFESSIONAL two sport athlete and first round pick in both. he was one of the fastest players in the nation and that will show at combine. again..the fact is his is a special talent, sure the 3 inches thing is what if but the facti pointed out was that he is special

Actually, he's not a "PROFESSIONAL" two sport athlete yet. He hasn't taken a snap in the NFL or seen a pitch in the majors.

He's a college athlete who was drafted by the A's and will be drafted by a pro football team this year.

I want a great QB. Not a great athlete. Murray's size is a concern. Anyone who continues to downplay this or ignore it just isn't being fair or realistic.

I do think he's very good. I also do NOT think he'll last in the NFL.

And not that Sy's opinion is gospel, but I'm not exactly alone here... he doesn't even think Murray is an NFL QB at all.

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He has until mid February to make a definitive decision between baseball and football.

If he chooses football, he'll have to stick with that decision until the end of February. If he chooses baseball, he'll have to stick with that decision until the end of July. After that, he can change his mind as often as he likes. Or as often as the money is flowing from that particular sport.

Call me when he drops Scott Boras as his agent. That's when you'll know he is serious about football. Until then, he's just using football as leverage to negotiate a new deal with the A's (which is already ongoing). And until then, I'm not even toying with the idea of Murray being drafted by the Giants. I still think the odds are that he goes undrafted, but how he performs and/or interviews at the combine will shed more light on that possibility. That's if he shows up at the combine!

In comment 14283795 BleedBlue said:

Quote:

In comment 14283788 DonQuixote said: Quote: In comment 14283722 rsjem1979 said: Quote: In comment 14283660 John In CO said: Quote: In comment 14283617 speedywheels said: Quote: In comment 14283608 Hsilwek92 said: Quote: Brutal interview. Almost mumbled through the whole thing and didn’t answer man questions. Yep, I heard it as well. Awful job there by him. Not saying that should by itself affect his draft status. But man, he sounded like an idiot... I dont think he sounded like an idiot, I think he sounded like a kid who has a huge decision to make and is probably sick of people trying to pry something out of him when he obviously really doesnt want to discuss it yet. He just had a similar interview on Rich Eisen. You know what, that's too F'ing bad. Nobody is going to have you on the be a pitchman for Gatorade without asking you the only questions that matter. Nobody put a gun to his head to take Gatorade's money and agree to the Radio Row media tour. Whoever is representing him on the football side needs to have him prepared for this. The Gatorade pitch comes at the beginning and end of the interview - in the middle there are actually going to be questions about your job. Dan Patrick was at first manipulative trying for him to make news against his own interest. So that was awkward. But then Patrick just starting making fun of the fact that the situation was awkward and piled on. The kid is going to take advice from his agent, he is not going to comment about baseball in case he wants to use it like Elway did or is truly undecided. If Dan Patrick thinks he is going to spill everything on his radio show, then he is just trying to manipulate him for his own benefit. The height discussion was ridiculous. Bad interview. Murray comes off fine. just watched and i agree

“Bad job by his agent.” You know, he doesn’t even have an NFL Agent. You can’t answer questions like that on a nationally syndicated radio show. Other than leverage against the A’s - and he does have a baseball agent who probably doesn’t care how he sounds here - how does it behoove him to delay his baseball/football decision any longer? All this is going to do is open up questions about his desire to play football and make him look like an entitled brat. It may also be taking time away from his Combine preparation, which he should be doing in earnest now, if he’s not already. If you’re playing football, say so, say thanks but no thanks to the A’s repay the signing bonus, and move on. That is it.

In comment 14283484 arcarsenal said:

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Zero doubt in my mind Murray can play. I'd be excited about the prospect of him here. But I'd just be counting down the snaps until he wound up on the sideline. I really don't think he's any heavier than 190 right now. 185-190 is probably more likely. Murray has to move to be effective in the NFL. No one is going to turn him into a pocket passer and have it work. I just keep going back to the fact that the last 2 QB's standing again are pure pocket guys that teams basically have zero concern with as far as running. I think Goff fumbled like 12 times this year actually.. so McVay definitely doesn't want him running around outside the pocket with the ball. Last year it was Brady and Foles. Then it was Brady and Ryan. Wilson and Kaepernick are literally the only two guys in this type of QB mold who have made it that far in decades. I realize the league evolves and changes and that players like this were less common years ago - the rules are also slanted in a way where a player like Murray is more viable now than he otherwise may have been in the past. But I still just think it's a risk and would rather hitch my wagon to Haskins. I am more confident in him being a QB we can rely on.

You posted this in another thread, or something similar to it. When people are looking for a dynamic, mobile QB people aren't asking for Michael Vick or RG3 that make plays up the field running. They are looking for QBs that can throw off balance, move out of the pocket, and make plays "off-script" by using their athleticism to put themselves in position to make throws.

Eli has non of those attributes. Rodgers, Brees, Wilson, Big Ben, Mahomes and others all have those attributes. Even Brady has a little old man athleticism in him to move in the pocket and deliver.

In comment 14283788 DonQuixote said:

Quote:

Dan Patrick was at first manipulative trying for him to make news against his own interest. So that was awkward. But then Patrick just starting making fun of the fact that the situation was awkward and piled on. The kid is going to take advice from his agent, he is not going to comment about baseball in case he wants to use it like Elway did or is truly undecided. If Dan Patrick thinks he is going to spill everything on his radio show, then he is just trying to manipulate him for his own benefit.

Dan Patrick's job is to get information from his guests and entertain his listeners. Nobody cares if Kyler Murray likes Gatorade. People care whether or not he's going to play football, and even if Patrick knows Murray isn't going to answer, there's no reason for him to continue to do a serious interview if his guest refuses to even speak.

Someone should have schooled Murray in how to handle the obvious questions, for his own benefit if not anyone else's.

In comment 14283550 PatersonPlank said:

Quote:

He's really short, and throwing over these massive lineman will be an issue. Plus everyone is bigger, faster, and hits harder. Basically all the things he did in college to be successful will be minimized/taken away in the pro's. I bet after a short period of getting thrown around like a doll, and not having much success, he will run back to baseball as fast as he can

FYI his offensive line in 2018 was 6'5, 6'4, 6'4, 6'5, 6'3 (I think). How much bigger do you think linemen get in the NFL?

On the Dan Patrick show.
Why would he do the Superbowl shows and not have a response to whether he is going to combine, etc. His agent really dropped the ball there.

In comment 14283576 Sy'56 said:

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But I will be honest, it would be exciting and fun to watch

At least it will be exciting. We haven't won anything in years. The only reason why Giants game were palatable this year was because of Barkley.

In comment 14283822 Dodge said:

Quote:

In comment 14283484 arcarsenal said: Quote: Zero doubt in my mind Murray can play. I'd be excited about the prospect of him here. But I'd just be counting down the snaps until he wound up on the sideline. I really don't think he's any heavier than 190 right now. 185-190 is probably more likely. Murray has to move to be effective in the NFL. No one is going to turn him into a pocket passer and have it work. I just keep going back to the fact that the last 2 QB's standing again are pure pocket guys that teams basically have zero concern with as far as running. I think Goff fumbled like 12 times this year actually.. so McVay definitely doesn't want him running around outside the pocket with the ball. Last year it was Brady and Foles. Then it was Brady and Ryan. Wilson and Kaepernick are literally the only two guys in this type of QB mold who have made it that far in decades. I realize the league evolves and changes and that players like this were less common years ago - the rules are also slanted in a way where a player like Murray is more viable now than he otherwise may have been in the past. But I still just think it's a risk and would rather hitch my wagon to Haskins. I am more confident in him being a QB we can rely on. You posted this in another thread, or something similar to it. When people are looking for a dynamic, mobile QB people aren't asking for Michael Vick or RG3 that make plays up the field running. They are looking for QBs that can throw off balance, move out of the pocket, and make plays "off-script" by using their athleticism to put themselves in position to make throws. Eli has non of those attributes. Rodgers, Brees, Wilson, Big Ben, Mahomes and others all have those attributes. Even Brady has a little old man athleticism in him to move in the pocket and deliver.

That isn't really my point. I've never compared Murray to RG3. Murray is a far better passer.

But for Murray to be the dynamic player he was in college, he HAS to use his legs and he has to get out in space more. You have to use spread concepts with him and get him on the move.

If you try to make Kyler Murray a standard dropback, pocket sitting QB, he's going to struggle to survey the field, will see tons of passes knocked down, and will really struggle to navigate traffic in the middle of the field. It won't work.

I think a team that tries to take Murray's legs away from him will be neutering him. If you're going to take a chance on him, you have to let him play the way he's been playing.

In comment 14283582 FatMan in Charlotte said:

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is a short-term gain vs. a long-term one. Cam Newton is only 29 years old and has taken 8 years of punishment and he's been breaking down and many believe he's going to quickly slide from here. Carson Wentz has missed 12 games the past two seasons. The risk of the QB getting hurt exists for all of them, but the downsize is what happens when it knocks out the #6 pick in the draft and one you build around? Look at Indy after Luck was out. You are one hit away from Lauletta playing. The Redskins were fortunate that Cousins was on the roster. The RGIII pick was toast after one season (a playoff season), then they faced having a first round pick shelved and the void that causes to a roster. They are still looking for a QB. What if Murray delivers us a playoff berth and then suffers the same fate?

What if. What if. What if. Can't be so risk adverse that we don't pick a QB and sit on OBJ and Barkley and instead find OLinemen for the "perfect Oline" then finally go pick a QB and OBJ and Barkley are on medicare.

because it is a huge departure from the norm and that is not the Giants modus operandi. And the durability concerns are certainly valid given his lean build. However, I think the unique talents he does have - his ability to run and also be a very accurate passer on the run - are things that open up a playbook and keep defenses on their heels. The threat of his running ability alone will help the pass rush as lane discipline becomes crucial to the rush.

He is a risky player but one I think can help this offense morph into something different and more dangerous rather than just "who plays Eli's spot next year?"

In comment 14283647 RinR said:

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to be gambling with the #6 pick. DG knows that. Given the risks with Kyler's size there is no way I see them drafting him at 6.

That's cool. We can be mediocre for another 2 years. Sounds like a great plan for stability.

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In comment 14283844 arcarsenal said: I think a team that tries to take Murray's legs away from him will be neutering him. If you're going to take a chance on him, you have to let him play the way he's been playing.

I don't disagree with that, but that's a more reasonable position than your first post. What you're writing, to me anyway, conflates a running QB vs. a mobile QB.

In comment 14283847 Mike from Ohio said:

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because it is a huge departure from the norm and that is not the Giants modus operandi.

Well a winning football team would be a huge departure from the norm, so I hope you're wrong.

means anything. Sounds like people who don't want Murrary are grasping at stuff to knock him for other than his size. Its odd. Strange interview for sure, but he's clearly been told to not answer questions and he's getting his first taste of what that's like. The interviews with the Giants are what matters.

In comment 14283811 arcarsenal said:

Quote:

In comment 14283743 BleedBlue said: Quote: In comment 14283737 arcarsenal said: Quote: In comment 14283727 BleedBlue said: Quote: didnt murray have the same/similar stats to mayfield? how come people werent oh but mayfield played in a conference with no defense? the FACT is murray is a special talent and if he was 3 inches taller, he would be the #1 pick with ease. the kid is insanely explosive and makes throws on the run as if its easy to do. kid can play and i believe he will be a solid player in the NFL. im gonna wait for the combine to get his official measurements but if he comes in at 5'9 195...im not gonna cry if they take him at 6....thats only 11 pounds lighter than brees and an inch shorter than mayfield. i think BBI may be seriously overrating this small of a size difference. now if he comes in at 180 and below 5'8 thats a little more of a concern that i understand. that being said, this kid can play and i think some team is going to be happy with him and how he plays at the next level Starting a sentence with "the FACT" and a few words later hypothesizing about where he'd go if he were 3 inches taller doesn't work. He's NOT 3 inches taller and he's not getting any taller between now and ever. Maybe he'll grow a quarter of an inch. But he's certainly not adding 3. I don't understand this argument. If grandma had balls, she'd be grandpa. Murray is the size he is. He can add some weight and probably will, but he's not going to grow any more. the fact ist hat he is a special talent....are you arguing that? the kid was the best player in college football. he is a PROFESSIONAL two sport athlete and first round pick in both. he was one of the fastest players in the nation and that will show at combine. again..the fact is his is a special talent, sure the 3 inches thing is what if but the facti pointed out was that he is special Actually, he's not a "PROFESSIONAL" two sport athlete yet. He hasn't taken a snap in the NFL or seen a pitch in the majors. He's a college athlete who was drafted by the A's and will be drafted by a pro football team this year. I want a great QB. Not a great athlete. Murray's size is a concern. Anyone who continues to downplay this or ignore it just isn't being fair or realistic. I do think he's very good. I also do NOT think he'll last in the NFL. And not that Sy's opinion is gospel, but I'm not exactly alone here... he doesn't even think Murray is an NFL QB at all.

he will be in a couple mnths. he is getting drafted to the nfl. its just semantics that he isnt "yet" a two sport professional athlete.

again, i think he will be special. the "fact" i mentioned was that he is a special player, this is actually fact. whether or not he lasts is anotehr story but youre acting like i made something up about him

For those who prefer Haskins I suggest that you rewatch his games
Haskins is a good QB but not great and has limited upside

Haskins is not a fast twitch or sudden player
He has slow footwork and a long delivery with a hitch
He is a prototype drop back passer but he does not have an extremely strong arm
He can extend plays with his strength but he is not explosive
Haskins upside is limited

It is not that I dislike Haskins , he just is not Murray
Murray has an unlimited upside based upon his skill set
There is risk in Kyler but I would rather take a chance on greatness

In comment 14283863 Archer said:

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For those who prefer Haskins I suggest that you rewatch his games Haskins is a good QB but not great and has limited upside Haskins is not a fast twitch or sudden player He has slow footwork and a long delivery with a hitch He is a prototype drop back passer but he does not have an extremely strong arm He can extend plays with his strength but he is not explosive Haskins upside is limited It is not that I dislike Haskins , he just is not Murray Murray has an unlimited upside based upon his skill set There is risk in Kyler but I would rather take a chance on greatness

The Giants can't afford to take ANY chances with the 6th pick. It needs to be a player they're convinced will be a can't miss pro. One who hopefully fills a position of great need taboot.

If they're convinced it's one of the QB's then so be it but it can't be a hope type pick. It has to be a player they're sold 100% on IMO.

and we are picking 6, not 2 again. Whoever we take at 6 isn't guaranteed to be great.

People want an ER and I get it. But there's a real potential of us only being able to get the #3 or #4 ranked ER in the draft if we don't move up. Isn't that risky?

I'm fine going ER, but I'm not going to pretend that its any guarantee.

There are a few players in this draft that will be described as high floor types that will not succeed. That is the nature of the draft. Whoever the Giants pick at #6 will be a gamble to some extent.

Trust your board and trust your evaluations, but in the end you need to pick a guy who can be a difference maker, not just a guy who won't become a bust.

But that DP interview was garbage. It’s universally being regarded as a bad look. And, basically, it is hard for me to support that guy when he hardly seems committed to football at the moment. In contrast, Haskins had an excellent interview today and - on top of doing everything you want on the field - said everything you want to hear. Many people came away from Murray’s interviews today feeling that he wants to play baseball, not football and that he is using this process as leverage. You know what? It’s hard to argue with that after watching them.

In comment 14283893 UConn4523 said:

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and we are picking 6, not 2 again. Whoever we take at 6 isn't guaranteed to be great. People want an ER and I get it. But there's a real potential of us only being able to get the #3 or #4 ranked ER in the draft if we don't move up. Isn't that risky? I'm fine going ER, but I'm not going to pretend that its any guarantee.

I'd take the #1 CB,LB,OL at six in a heartbeat who they think at worst will be a very solid pro, over rolling the dice on a QB who could be a boom or bust type pick.

As far as ER's go there's no telling what ones will be there at 6. He could be the fourth one picked but maybe the second rated one on the Giants board. Maybe even the guy everyone thinks is the 2nd best is still there.

Point is the Giants should grab what they feel is as close to a can't miss pro as they can. If they feel one of the QBs is that, then I'm fine with it. I just don't want them reaching for one over a better player, especially if that player fills a huge need.

what if the Giants really like Murray? I realize this probably isn’t the case but if they think he can make plays in and out of the pocket and aren’t as concerned as we are about his size than I’m all for it.

In comment 14283914 UConn4523 said:

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what if the Giants really like Murray? I realize this probably isn’t the case but if they think he can make plays in and out of the pocket and aren’t as concerned as we are about his size than I’m all for it.

It was in response to the OP saying he was in favor of taking a chance on greatness. To me taking a chance is pretty much rolling the dice. That's what I'm not comfortable with them doing regardless of position.

As for Murray, I agree with you. If the Giants are convinced he's the goods, I'm fine with it. I'm only against reaching for him or any of the QBs if they're not convinced and take a QB just to take one.

1 team out of 32 wins every year. You have to take risks to outperform 31 other billion dollar organizations. Obviously you can't be foolish but I some point you are putting your nuts on the table if you have any aspirations of actually winning a championship.

In comment 14283921 AcesUp said:

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1 team out of 32 wins every year. You have to take risks to outperform 31 other billion dollar organizations. Obviously you can't be foolish but I some point you are putting your nuts on the table if you have any aspirations of actually winning a championship.

Well we can agree to disagree then. I for one want them taking little to no risk with the 6th pick. It's way to valuable a commodity IMO.

If someone slides into the 2nd rd who is worth taking a chance on, then fine but 6 needs to be as solid a pick as they can make IMO.

Saquon Barkley was as close to a sure thing as it gets in the draft, but most of the time, even at the top of the first you don't know whether you're getting Peyton Manning or Ryan Leaf. It's all a crapshoot.

Re Murray, I have no strong feelings one way or the other. But assuming he, Haskins and Lock are all on the board when the Giants are on the clock, I'd rather see them go with the guy with the best chance to be great, not the guy with the greatest likelihood of being pretty good, the highest ceiling not the lowest floor. I don't know who that is, or how they evaluate that. I'd rather see them gamble on a great player than settle for a solid one.

Someone compared Murray to Doug Flutie. So many people focused on what Flutie wasn't (big, strong) they overlooked what he was. I don't want the Giants to have the next Doug Flutie, but that would be better than having the next Dave Brown.

disadvantage, but he has better passing stats and is faster than any of the other top prospects. He's got a good arm, he's accurate, makes good decisions, etc. So somehow teams have to weigh his lack of height against his great attributes. That's something I'm content to leave to the professionals.

but a smaller qb can’t? How? Prove it.

To draft Murray and trade us Rosen for #6. He’s better than any QB this year.

In comment 14283943 Ira said:

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disadvantage, but he has better passing stats and is faster than any of the other top prospects. He's got a good arm, he's accurate, makes good decisions, etc. So somehow teams have to weigh his lack of height against his great attributes. That's something I'm content to leave to the professionals.

I think the NFL's bias against height has merit but has been overvalued. If a player has the arm talent to throw from multiple angles and the ability to move around - he can create throwing lanes for himself. The height then doesn't matter. Murray has the arm and the instincts for that.

The additional risk with Murray is his size. That's a big one coupled with his playing style. Can he stay on the field? I think he's destined to either play hurt or miss a few games a year, I'm actually fine with that. If he's special, it's tougher to find a special talent at QB than it is to find a capable QB to plug in for a couple of games. The league is littered with them, guys come off the scrap heap and earn big contracts (see Foles and Keenum).

I think the bigger risks with him are the fact that he's only started 1 year in a QB friendly system. You combine that with his size and his game, which teams are only now opening up to as viable for the NFL and you're left with a LOT of projection. There's also the pull of baseball, which is real. Risk on top of risk on top of risk.

Then you watch him in college and imagine what he could be with Barkley and OBJ if he's even half of that player. I agree 6 is too rich for that but a late first flyer makes a ton of sense if you look at our situation and roster.

In comment 14283855 UConn4523 said:

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means anything. Sounds like people who don't want Murrary are grasping at stuff to knock him for other than his size. Its odd. Strange interview for sure, but he's clearly been told to not answer questions and he's getting his first taste of what that's like. The interviews with the Giants are what matters.

There’s a difference between not answering whether he’s leaning one way or another and, sounding completely aloof and disinterested. Even when DP moved on to other subjects and asked other questions, he basically gave shoulder shrugs as answers.

Plenty of guests go on and won’t talk about certain things but, they’re at least engaging and go along with the process of the interview without looking and sounding like a shy 3 year old.

pass on a player because he doesn't fit the mold. They just love the safe picks, even when it comes to selecting a new GM and HC. Lot of good it's done us so far.

In comment 14283971 SHO'NUFF said:

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pass on a player because he doesn't fit the mold. They just love the safe picks, even when it comes to selecting a new GM and HC. Lot of good it's done us so far.

I think that's the case, doesn't mean we agree with it.

In comment 14283972 Default said:

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In comment 14283971 SHO'NUFF said: Quote: pass on a player because he doesn't fit the mold. They just love the safe picks, even when it comes to selecting a new GM and HC. Lot of good it's done us so far. I think that's the case, doesn't mean we agree with it.

Shit, didn't read your post correctly...

I agree, it hasn't done the team any good, and I wish they wouldn't think so conservatively, but I don't see it changing any time soon.

In comment 14283971 SHO'NUFF said:

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pass on a player because he doesn't fit the mold. They just love the safe picks, even when it comes to selecting a new GM and HC. Lot of good it's done us so far.

Yeah those four Lombardi's look terrible in the trophy case.

In comment 14283967 Hsilwek92 said:

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In comment 14283855 UConn4523 said: Quote: means anything. Sounds like people who don't want Murrary are grasping at stuff to knock him for other than his size. Its odd. Strange interview for sure, but he's clearly been told to not answer questions and he's getting his first taste of what that's like. The interviews with the Giants are what matters. There’s a difference between not answering whether he’s leaning one way or another and, sounding completely aloof and disinterested. Even when DP moved on to other subjects and asked other questions, he basically gave shoulder shrugs as answers. Plenty of guests go on and won’t talk about certain things but, they’re at least engaging and go along with the process of the interview without looking and sounding like a shy 3 year old.

He’s 21 and about to make the biggest decision of his life. He’s trying not to slip up and make a mistake. I know you may not care about those things, but it happens all the time, and it usually never matters. If DG interviews him and doesn’t give answers, that’s a different story.

In comment 14283851 Dodge said:

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Quote: In comment 14283844 arcarsenal said: I think a team that tries to take Murray's legs away from him will be neutering him. If you're going to take a chance on him, you have to let him play the way he's been playing. I don't disagree with that, but that's a more reasonable position than your first post. What you're writing, to me anyway, conflates a running QB vs. a mobile QB.

I know the difference. If you're not able to discern that in my writing, that's on you.

I just think this kid is a special talent. The NFL missed out on Flutie’s best years. Here is a link to a decent writeup and evaluation of Flutie’s abilities:

http://www.footballperspective.com/guest-post-doug-flutie-was-a-great-quarterback/

I think this kid is another Flutie and we don’t have to miss out again, would love him on the Giants. Is there huge risk? Absolutely. There is also huge risk in taking Haskins if you believe like I do he has a limited ceiling. I would rather take the risk on potential greatness.

I do have reason to pause. Sy56 has forgotten more about footbal than I will ever know and he seems pretty certain Murray doesn’t cut it in the NFL. I was holding out hope that after he did his film study he would change his opinion. To my unprofessional and untrained eye, he looks like a special talent. He IS NOT RG3, this kid can really sling it, moves to extend the play and make tne throw, runs when circumstances call,for it and he avoids big hits. Smart player and a GAMER, he is tough and competitive. Plenty of bigger guys who play smaller. I am bummed that Sy56 does not see even some possibility he is the goods. FWIW (nothing i guess) would be ecstatic if we picked him at 6.

He is not small. He is short

In comment 14283976 UConn4523 said:

Quote:

In comment 14283967 Hsilwek92 said: Quote: In comment 14283855 UConn4523 said: Quote: means anything. Sounds like people who don't want Murrary are grasping at stuff to knock him for other than his size. Its odd. Strange interview for sure, but he's clearly been told to not answer questions and he's getting his first taste of what that's like. The interviews with the Giants are what matters. There’s a difference between not answering whether he’s leaning one way or another and, sounding completely aloof and disinterested. Even when DP moved on to other subjects and asked other questions, he basically gave shoulder shrugs as answers. Plenty of guests go on and won’t talk about certain things but, they’re at least engaging and go along with the process of the interview without looking and sounding like a shy 3 year old. He’s 21 and about to make the biggest decision of his life. He’s trying not to slip up and make a mistake. I know you may not care about those things, but it happens all the time, and it usually never matters. If DG interviews him and doesn’t give answers, that’s a different story.

That’s lame excuse. How is he going to slip up by answering softball question like, “Who was your favorite player growing up?”

Hell, even his ‘promoting’ of Gatorade, one of the reasons he was on the show, was god awful. IIRC, he mumbled something like, “Yeah. Gatorade. Love it. Cool Blue is my favorite. “

Look, it’s very easy. All he or his reps had to do is say they don’t want to answer any questions about how he’s leaning. Some people probably would’ve balked at that and said thanks but no thanks. The bottom line is, the question is going to be continued to be asked until the decision is finally made. Him or his team not having a strategy in place to dodge them effectively at this point looks bad.

I think he’s a tremendous talent and, I’m not saying it’s a huge mark against him, but I also think it’s not something you can just brush off as, “Nothing to see here.”

some people don’t like answering questions on camera. That’s an absolute fact. Easy for you to say how he should act but it very well could be something he doesn’t like doing. Or maybe he’s an idiot, I don’t know but I’m certainly not jumping to conclusions on it.

shows.

All of the interview stuff is a total non factor for me - I don't care about any of that. I'm completely focused on the player.

And I'm also not the type of guy who wants to look smart more than I want the Giants to be good again. So, if they take Murray, I won't spend all year fighting it like people here pathetically did regarding Saquon because they couldn't get over him not being a QB.

I actually think Murray is super exciting. I wouldn't be angry if we took him as much as I'd just be concerned about how reliable he'd really be. I'd still get on board with it because I'm a bigger fan of the Giants than my ego.

That said - I've belabored this point about durability because I think Giants fans almost don't really remember what it's like to have that concern. We've had an iron man under center for 15 years now. He has been there as reliably as the sun rising in the east each day and I think we take that for granted and almost just sort of inherently assume we'll have similar luck going forward.

I don't actually believe all Giants fans are going to just assume no QB will ever get hurt again because of the luck we've had with Eli - I'm just saying that because of what we grew accustomed to for such a long time, I think most people here put the QB getting hurt risk on the backburner much more than perhaps fans of a team like Miami might, for example. Or any team who has been without their starter a bit recently.

your reasons make sense, nothing to argue with. My thoughts which are purely my opinion and don’t expect many to agree, is that we’ve stunk for so long I’m fine with not getting another iron man. It’s no offense to Eli but him being an iron man hasn’t helped us much in 7 years now and I realize a lot of that isn’t his fault, but the point remains.

I’m ready to move on to something non conventional. 2-3 years ago I never thought I’d say it, but I do now. I’d like to do something innovative, or try to. If we fail at it we are in no worse shape than we are now. I know jobs are at stake so it’s easier said than done, but it’s what I want as a fan.

No doubt, and that's a fair stance too - I don't think there's really anything wrong with that.

Murray with Barkley and Beckham is very exciting - Engram can be part of that as well if we can work him in more and utilize his skillset.

And it would be fun to watch the Giants play an entirely different brand of ball than what we've seen for so many years.

I still prefer Haskins, but Murray is actually right behind him for me. I'm at a place where I'd rather take a risk on Murray than draft Daniel Jones or Drew Lock.

Giants draft Murray

I'm on Team Murray.

an either or situation:

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Some of you guys still think like Giants management SHO'NUFF : 6:08 pm : link : reply pass on a player because he doesn't fit the mold. They just love the safe picks, even when it comes to selecting a new GM and HC. Lot of good it's done us so far.

For all this talk about "safe" vs. "risky", the Giants are a bad team. They don't get magically better by being risky, because they not only have to hit on that risk, but they have to beat the probabilities.

I don't look at them as having been safe - I look at them as having been very poor at drafting.

Flowers was a risky pick. Apple was a risky pick. They were reaches who didn't pan out and look where we are in part because of it.

Reese's tenure was filled with high-risk players, whether it was from past injuries, reaching or playing lesser competition. JPP worked out fantastic. Tuck worked out.

But most of them didn't. And that's what should be expected.

The other fault in logic is that taking a flyer on "greatness" with Murray means that a "safe" pick doesn't have a shot at greatness. And that's been proven false time and again in the NFL.

It isn't about risk - it is about drafting good players.

The basis of the comparison is obvious, but he actually does remind me a little of how Eddie played the game.

Video - ( New Window )

In comment 14283974 Eman11 said:

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In comment 14283971 SHO'NUFF said: Quote: pass on a player because he doesn't fit the mold. They just love the safe picks, even when it comes to selecting a new GM and HC. Lot of good it's done us so far. Yeah those four Lombardi's look terrible in the trophy case.

Are we still reaching for SBs we won how many years ago.. How have the Giants looked lately? Safe organization who make safe moves, Let’s draft a OT start Eli win 6 games and beat our chest about how classy we are.. The Giants way

In comment 14284467 GoBlue6599 said:

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In comment 14283974 Eman11 said: Quote: In comment 14283971 SHO'NUFF said: Quote: pass on a player because he doesn't fit the mold. They just love the safe picks, even when it comes to selecting a new GM and HC. Lot of good it's done us so far. Yeah those four Lombardi's look terrible in the trophy case. Are we still reaching for SBs we won how many years ago.. How have the Giants looked lately? Safe organization who make safe moves, Let’s draft a OT start Eli win 6 games and beat our chest about how classy we are.. The Giants way

I'm not reaching for anything. To say "lot of good it's done us so far" is way off base IMO and I'm simply point out how wrong that statement is.

The "Giants way" has won us fans four Super Bowls. That's a lot more than most teams,and I'll take that over being a fan of teams who've never even sniffed a SB win, let alone win four of them.

In comment 14283863 Archer said:

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For those who prefer Haskins I suggest that you rewatch his games Haskins is a good QB but not great and has limited upside Haskins is not a fast twitch or sudden player He has slow footwork and a long delivery with a hitch He is a prototype drop back passer but he does not have an extremely strong arm He can extend plays with his strength but he is not explosive Haskins upside is limited It is not that I dislike Haskins , he just is not Murray Murray has an unlimited upside based upon his skill set There is risk in Kyler but I would rather take a chance on greatness

Might be the worst breakdown of what Haskins can do that I’ve read anywhere not just Bbi. Haskins has a very strong accurate arm. He does not extend plays at all with size or anything of te sort. Being tough to bring down is differnt from extending plays with strength. He never climbs the pocket he always bails out and rolls. He can throw on the run well. His footwork, especially under pressure, is terrible. His throwing motion does not have a hitch in it. He has a very quick release. I really question what your watching or who you’re getting information from. Either way it’s brutal. Carry on.

In comment 14284018 UConn4523 said:

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some people don’t like answering questions on camera. That’s an absolute fact. Easy for you to say how he should act but it very well could be something he doesn’t like doing. Or maybe he’s an idiot, I don’t know but I’m certainly not jumping to conclusions on it.

Please. It is a lame excuse and now you’re just making lame excuses for him. Some people don’t like answering questions on camera? Seriously? He knew what he was getting into with the two sport stuff. What’s he going to do if he decides to play in the NFL instead of MLB? Cameras will be in his face all the time, especially if he’s drafted in the first round. What will be the excuse then should he pull the same stuff?

Not after what DG said last year. And basically the Giant way.

I don't know how he'd be and he would be fun and exciting but- not as much as his height -- but his weight - he's a huge risk.

I'd be shocked if they took him at 6.

who are adamant Murray’s production against Alabama was in garbage time. You think Savanna enjoyed watching him put his team back in the game? Ask Belichick how he felt in the second half against KC 2 weeks ago.

Great coaches don’t let up. Saban wasn’t letting OK score for the fuck of it. Give Murray and the coaches credit for adjusting, those things matter.

In comment 14285106 UConn4523 said:

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who are adamant Murray’s production against Alabama was in garbage time. You think Savanna enjoyed watching him put his team back in the game? Ask Belichick how he felt in the second half against KC 2 weeks ago. Great coaches don’t let up. Saban wasn’t letting OK score for the fuck of it. Give Murray and the coaches credit for adjusting, those things matter.

I don't think Saban was letting OUscore, he was just content once they got the big lead to let OU use clock to do it.

I also think the players on D didn't intentionally let up, they just gave in to human nature and like a lot of us, thought the game was over early. They did their jobs when needed early and once they got the big lead, lost that same edge and fire they came out with.

It's not what a fan would want to see but it's understandable IMO. I know I felt like changing the channel a few times during that game because I felt it was over early.

but it’s just that. No coach would be happy just playing soft defense, let alone for over 2 quarters. Too much time, too easy for a player like Murray to score.

Brady was praised when down 28-3. Mahomes lit it up for 31 points 2 weeks ago in the 2nd half and probably should have won the game. No coach is going soft for that long a period of time. Murray had no turnovers either, it’s not like he gave the game away. Give the kid credit.

In comment 14283863 Archer said:

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For those who prefer Haskins I suggest that you rewatch his games Haskins is a good QB but not great and has limited upside Haskins is not a fast twitch or sudden player He has slow footwork and a long delivery with a hitch He is a prototype drop back passer but he does not have an extremely strong arm He can extend plays with his strength but he is not explosive Haskins upside is limited It is not that I dislike Haskins , he just is not Murray Murray has an unlimited upside based upon his skill set There is risk in Kyler but I would rather take a chance on greatness

Such a one-sided, unfair characterization of Haskins. Based on this you would have passed on Mannings, Brees, Big BEn, Rivers, Marino, Brady, etc etc. I don't want a "fast twitch" QB. I want a QB who has size so he can see the whole field, is mobile enough to buy time but not necessarily a runner, a big arm, and an accurate arm. Keep your "fast twitch" desire for RB and WR.

In comment 14285145 UConn4523 said:

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but it’s just that. No coach would be happy just playing soft defense, let alone for over 2 quarters. Too much time, too easy for a player like Murray to score. Brady was praised when down 28-3. Mahomes lit it up for 31 points 2 weeks ago in the 2nd half and probably should have won the game. No coach is going soft for that long a period of time. Murray had no turnovers either, it’s not like he gave the game away. Give the kid credit.

It would be a lot easier for me to give him some credit if he did anything in the first quarter when it was still a game. Even one score against Bama's D when they were going full bore mentally as well as physically would do it for me.

He obviously made a lot of plays in the game but I just have a nagging type feeling it happened when it didn't matter anymore. I'm not saying I'm 100% right on that, it's just my impression from watching that game play out.

I do agree no coach, especially Saban is going to make it easy for a team to score even if using clock. That said, I also think he saw how his O could pretty much score whenever they needed or wanted to, and that played into his thinking for his D as well.

In comment 14283698 Sy'56 said:

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In comment 14283596 Giants38 said: Quote: In comment 14283576 Sy'56 said: Quote: Not exactly. I don't think he is an NFL QB and that opinion will stay. He is a fun player to watch, but so was Eric Crouch.

Eric Crouch is a tough comp. Crouch threw for 1,500 yards his Heisman year, Kyler threw for ~4,000. Murray also has a far superior arm to Crouch.

all game against Bama isn’t worth considering.

In comment 14283971 SHO'NUFF said:

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pass on a player because he doesn't fit the mold. They just love the safe picks, even when it comes to selecting a new GM and HC. Lot of good it's done us so far.

Right. Except when they went with a rookie HC in mcadoo or when they hired coughlin much to the chagrin of many so called experts or when they drafted Barkley, a RB, when the entire free world was going ape shit about taking a qb or when they traded up for Eli and took tons of abuse or when they signed Kerry Collins who was basically toxic or Christian Peter or when they signed Burress to a FA deal even though he was considered a bit dangerous or risky or how they outspent the entire NFL in FA during the 2015-2016 offseason.

Yeah, all they do is take the safe route.

In comment 14285242 UConn4523 said:

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all game against Bama isn’t worth considering.

I'm not sure where you're getting that, at least not from anything I've said.

I simply said I would've liked to see him perform as well in the beginning of the game when it mattered and was still a game, and not just when the game for all intents and purposes was over.

You're free to take whatever analysis of his play from that game as you want. The same as the rest of us are, but the fact is he did diddly squat when it mattered, and that's my biggest knock on him from that game.

that’s my point. Pointing at 1 game where he had 1 bad quarter against the top team in the nation is just strange. And not only that but apparently Nick saban was just letting them gain yardage and didn’t care if they scored. That’s a narrative I’m not buying. We see teams fold all the time in OKs situation, and they didn’t. You also don’t know how much of it was on being ill prepared in all other facets of the game. They were down 21 points after 13 minutes...

As I said before we aren’t going to agree on this, I just can’t really see your POV. If we go back to Mayfields last game (a loss to Georgia) or all of the lackluster games that Darnold and Rosen played, what exactly is the problem with Murray’s bad quarter in regards to his draft standing?

In comment 14285353 UConn4523 said:

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that’s my point. Pointing at 1 game where he had 1 bad quarter against the top team in the nation is just strange. And not only that but apparently Nick saban was just letting them gain yardage and didn’t care if they scored. That’s a narrative I’m not buying. We see teams fold all the time in OKs situation, and they didn’t. You also don’t know how much of it was on being ill prepared in all other facets of the game. They were down 21 points after 13 minutes... As I said before we aren’t going to agree on this, I just can’t really see your POV. If we go back to Mayfields last game (a loss to Georgia) or all of the lackluster games that Darnold and Rosen played, what exactly is the problem with Murray’s bad quarter in regards to his draft standing?

I think maybe you're reading something into my posts that aren't actually there. I never said we shouldn't draft him or even consider drafting him or that game should affect his draft status.

I only said I agreed with arc about not giving him a lot of credit for the Bama game. Had he played well out of the chute I wouldn't hesitate giving him credit for that game but that's not what happened.

I just don't give him as much credit for his 2nd half as you and others do, because I felt it came in what was an already decided game, that's all. Nothing more, nothing less. Not whether he should play in the NFL, if he can, where he should be drafted or anything else. I was just giving my opinion on how I looked at his performance in that game.

I would've been a helluva lot more impressed had he done anything early, (he only completed one of five passes in the first 17 minutes) and even more so if they were as ill prepared as you think they might've been. Personally, I'm not buying that as I think they were more outclassed than out coached or prepared.