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If we pass on QB again...what's the overall feeling here?

ryanmkeane : 2/1/2019 1:48 pm
Been thinking about this for a few days. Let's say we are up at 6 and every QB in the draft is available. Haskins, Lock, Murray, whoever, pick your poison. Gettleman passes and goes for someone like Devin White, a DL, or hell maybe even Jonah Williams if he's there. What's everyone opinion on the immediate reaction? Me - I probably have a pit in my stomach knowing that they are passing the buck again on QB, but ultimately probably didn't fall in love with any of the prospects, making the decision explainable for sure. I'd be thinking "we better pray that none of these QBs turn out to be the goods." I'd also be thinking, I hope we go 5-11 again because if we win 7-9 games, we'll have to trade the farm for a top QB next year, when a somewhat better class of QBs are available.

I will just be really disappointed if we pass again. I'm sick of losing and I'm kinda sick of Eli sucking every other game. I think the franchise needs a jolt, or at the very least, hope for the future that we have our guy. The thought of not knowing AGAIN for another year would just be brutal.

I'd also start to question the overall direction of the team. I'd start to think that maybe Gettleman and Shurmur think that teams can win championships or at the very least go pretty far without a franchise caliber QB (like the Vikings with Keenum). Do they truly believe that the QB is the most important position among all others and if you don't have a really good one, you can't compete year over year.

It's definitely going to be interesting. One thing I know for sure is that I'm still of the opinion that Haskins + Barkley is better than Darnold and no Barkley. I'm going to be somewhat shocked if we don't take a QB, and it'll just take the air out of the room on draft night for a lot of us I think..
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It's the old  
idiotsavant : 2/2/2019 9:44 am : link
'it might not work so why try' argument. 'why try to build the core'

'there might not be a QB in 2020'

I say, so what.
Didn't read the thread but I said this last year  
Jim in Forest Hills : 2/2/2019 9:58 am : link
If you are keeping Eli, go friggin all in. Don't go halfway, devote your resources to getting Eli into the playoffs. Fuck grooming a guy, let's give Eli another shot. Draft an impact Edge rusher. Sign an OL.

I may not agree with this plan, but its better than dipping your toe in the pool.
don't  
fkap : 2/2/2019 10:04 am : link
most starting QBs come from the first round? Yes, there's the Brady/Prescott/Cousins/Wilson starters, but there's a lot more Lauletta/Webb out there. There's a reason teams trade up for a QB and go gaga over the top QB prospects or moan about lack of top prospects.

It's not quite taking a flier by picking one in the second, but by doing so, you're counting on him to start and getting terrible value if he doesn't. The Giants need a QB of the future. They need a lot of position talent, and can't afford to miss on a top pick. a miss at #2 is a bad miss. the warts/question marks don't get any less real just because they're better 'value'. Be damn sure any QB taken is a legitimate prospect and not anything resembling a good value flier.
ISAVANT  
giantstock : 2/2/2019 10:04 am : link
IMO "the core" starts with a QB.

So in this case - suppose Haskins is real good and you select him 6th and you've gotten Morse at center and Williams at RT. In 2019 the offense struggles because the young QB makes a lot of mistakes. So how good would the record be? At best 6-10 but possibly worse.

Now after you select a QB in rd 1, you can get a pass rusher in rd 2 or trade up a bit to get 1 in later rd 1. When you look over good pass rushers in the NFL, many are also late 1st rounders or beyond.

After this you can go crazy on defense drafting for the remainder of this draft and the draft in 2020 (not EVERY pick on d). Plus you might even be able to trade-down in 2020 because another team will look to trade up for a QB possibly. Also you have FA in 2020 as well.

In the scenarios I cite you aren't giving up players- you might even be "ACQUIRING MORE."

We can certainly have a decent enough defense and an explosive offense if the QB in 2019 is good, right? And there would be no reason that "the core" you cite can't be operational in 2020 with the philosophy I've just explained, right? But in this case, we're giving up less players rather than "trading up" for a QB which could end up being astronomical.
Just to add  
giantstock : 2/2/2019 10:08 am : link
Again -- I love watching super defenses as a Giant fan. So getting some studs on D particularly rds 1 and 2 I'd like that provided they didn't like the QB.

Have to recognize though the game has changed to favor more offense. It doesnt mean Defense is irrelevant though.
RE: It's the old  
giantstock : 2/2/2019 10:20 am : link
In comment 14284263 idiotsavant said:
Quote:


'there might not be a QB in 2020'

I say, so what.


Without the most important position on the football field, we won't be a contender. Until you get that QB everything becomes "so what . . . "

The Chiefs this year and Falcons of 2016 showed you can have a crummy D. I understand Jax showed you can have a crummy QB - but imo the defense is light years away from 2017 Jax while the offense needs a good QB with just two Olinmen.

We're closer offensively to 2016 Falcons and this year Chiefs once we get the QB than anything dominant defensively like Jax was.
...  
christian : 2/2/2019 10:44 am : link
At some point the Giants will need to draft a QB who has all the requisite skills -- mentally and physically.

Doesn't have to be in the top 5 -- but year after year most of those guys go in top 30-40.

And at some point the Giants staff will need to develop a QB. If Shurmur is who his reputation says he is, it's a must. It's likely how he keeps his job.
The Giants aren't in the same universe as this year's Chiefs  
Go Terps : 2/2/2019 11:18 am : link
With the exception of Barkley they've got better players everywhere.
what Torrag said  
JonC : 2/2/2019 11:49 am : link
.
RE: The Giants aren't in the same universe as this year's Chiefs  
giantstock : 2/2/2019 11:49 am : link
In comment 14284334 Go Terps said:
Quote:
With the exception of Barkley they've got better players everywhere.


they aren't but if Haskins is good and they get as an example Morse and Wiilisms at c and rt they'd have a solid OL in 2020 with a good QB to go along with Barkley and OBJ,

THAT OFFESNSE WOULD BE AWESOME. -- CHIEFS-LIKE AWESOME.
Thank god!!!  
.McL. : 2/2/2019 12:31 pm : link
There is large crowd on here that is "ANYBODY BUT ELI", and it doesn't matter the cost.

This crowd was all in on Herbert and didn't care about Haskins, Lock or Murray...
Herbert doesn't declare, and they all switch to one of those 3... It doesn't matter how good they really are, where they should really go in the draft, how much risk they represent. yada yada yada.

In any other year none of them including Herbert would be a first round pick. But the choices this year are so slim, some teams will reach for them.

Don't get me wrong, a new QB is necessary, and soon.

I don't want to see the Giants wasting a #6 pick in the draft on any of these guys. None are worth it. Remember the draft is about getting the best possible value for the pick... None of these guys are the best possible value. They all have too much risk with not a high enough enough possibility of a potential reward.

Keep in mind the #6 pick in the draft always has the value of a #6 pick whether you get by way of sucking or by way of trading. So by using up whatever trade value you have to get to #6, or just having it and using it, its all the same value. In other words, I am not the least bit bothered by having to trade the farm if necessary to get there.

In fact I would prefer that the giant trade down from #6 and pick up another premium pick for 2020 to make it easier to move up.

TO those that worry that the Giants will be too good in 2019, what on earth makes you think so. I have said this many times, 5 wins this season were an illusion... 4 of those wins came when the Giants were unusually healthy mid season playing against really banged up teams and 2nd string QBs. This team is much closer to a 3 win team than a 7 win team. The team still has only 40% of an offensive line. Zero elite pass rushers. Nothing at LB, 1 aging but very competent CB. Still way too many needs to turn this team around in 2019.

And on top of that, if you believe Eli is so bad, then what's the worry for 2019?

5 wins in 2019, and another top 10 pick is a very reasonable expectation. Anything above that is probably a delusion.

I know folks are tired of losing, but prepare yourself for at least 1 more lost season. Set your sights on 2020 for significant improvement.

Lucky for the Giants, 2020 has a whole bunch of nice QB choices...
RE: what Torrag said  
Jim in Forest Hills : 2/2/2019 12:42 pm : link
In comment 14284363 JonC said:
Quote:
.


Minus the Finley part - ugh.
RE: Thank god!!!  
Jim in Forest Hills : 2/2/2019 12:50 pm : link
In comment 14284396 .McL. said:
Quote:
There is large crowd on here that is "ANYBODY BUT ELI", and it doesn't matter the cost.

This crowd was all in on Herbert and didn't care about Haskins, Lock or Murray...
Herbert doesn't declare, and they all switch to one of those 3... It doesn't matter how good they really are, where they should really go in the draft, how much risk they represent. yada yada yada.

In any other year none of them including Herbert would be a first round pick. But the choices this year are so slim, some teams will reach for them.

Don't get me wrong, a new QB is necessary, and soon.

I don't want to see the Giants wasting a #6 pick in the draft on any of these guys. None are worth it. Remember the draft is about getting the best possible value for the pick... None of these guys are the best possible value. They all have too much risk with not a high enough enough possibility of a potential reward.

Keep in mind the #6 pick in the draft always has the value of a #6 pick whether you get by way of sucking or by way of trading. So by using up whatever trade value you have to get to #6, or just having it and using it, its all the same value. In other words, I am not the least bit bothered by having to trade the farm if necessary to get there.

In fact I would prefer that the giant trade down from #6 and pick up another premium pick for 2020 to make it easier to move up.

TO those that worry that the Giants will be too good in 2019, what on earth makes you think so. I have said this many times, 5 wins this season were an illusion... 4 of those wins came when the Giants were unusually healthy mid season playing against really banged up teams and 2nd string QBs. This team is much closer to a 3 win team than a 7 win team. The team still has only 40% of an offensive line. Zero elite pass rushers. Nothing at LB, 1 aging but very competent CB. Still way too many needs to turn this team around in 2019.

And on top of that, if you believe Eli is so bad, then what's the worry for 2019?

5 wins in 2019, and another top 10 pick is a very reasonable expectation. Anything above that is probably a delusion.

I know folks are tired of losing, but prepare yourself for at least 1 more lost season. Set your sights on 2020 for significant improvement.

Lucky for the Giants, 2020 has a whole bunch of nice QB choices...


If you think the Giants will be a 5 win team in 2019, what on earth is the point of Eli then? To just take a beating? If DG thinks this is a 5 win team (and I dont think he thinks that) there is almost no case for Eli to stay. Start Lauletta and Tanney. Eli should be here because they feel they can win, get into the playoffs (which I do think DG believes). In that case, don't draft a QB, go for it.
RE: RE: Thank god!!!  
.McL. : 2/2/2019 3:47 pm : link
In comment 14284417 Jim in Forest Hills said:
Quote:
In comment 14284396 .McL. said:


Quote:


There is large crowd on here that is "ANYBODY BUT ELI", and it doesn't matter the cost.

This crowd was all in on Herbert and didn't care about Haskins, Lock or Murray...
Herbert doesn't declare, and they all switch to one of those 3... It doesn't matter how good they really are, where they should really go in the draft, how much risk they represent. yada yada yada.

In any other year none of them including Herbert would be a first round pick. But the choices this year are so slim, some teams will reach for them.

Don't get me wrong, a new QB is necessary, and soon.

I don't want to see the Giants wasting a #6 pick in the draft on any of these guys. None are worth it. Remember the draft is about getting the best possible value for the pick... None of these guys are the best possible value. They all have too much risk with not a high enough enough possibility of a potential reward.

Keep in mind the #6 pick in the draft always has the value of a #6 pick whether you get by way of sucking or by way of trading. So by using up whatever trade value you have to get to #6, or just having it and using it, its all the same value. In other words, I am not the least bit bothered by having to trade the farm if necessary to get there.

In fact I would prefer that the giant trade down from #6 and pick up another premium pick for 2020 to make it easier to move up.

TO those that worry that the Giants will be too good in 2019, what on earth makes you think so. I have said this many times, 5 wins this season were an illusion... 4 of those wins came when the Giants were unusually healthy mid season playing against really banged up teams and 2nd string QBs. This team is much closer to a 3 win team than a 7 win team. The team still has only 40% of an offensive line. Zero elite pass rushers. Nothing at LB, 1 aging but very competent CB. Still way too many needs to turn this team around in 2019.

And on top of that, if you believe Eli is so bad, then what's the worry for 2019?

5 wins in 2019, and another top 10 pick is a very reasonable expectation. Anything above that is probably a delusion.

I know folks are tired of losing, but prepare yourself for at least 1 more lost season. Set your sights on 2020 for significant improvement.

Lucky for the Giants, 2020 has a whole bunch of nice QB choices...



If you think the Giants will be a 5 win team in 2019, what on earth is the point of Eli then? To just take a beating? If DG thinks this is a 5 win team (and I dont think he thinks that) there is almost no case for Eli to stay. Start Lauletta and Tanney. Eli should be here because they feel they can win, get into the playoffs (which I do think DG believes). In that case, don't draft a QB, go for it.

I have said this many times, who starts in 2019 is mostly irrelevant, as long as we don't waste the #6 pick, or too much FA money...
In the long run, the Giants are trying to build a winner, you need good culture for that. So there is marginal benefit to Eli in 2019. Starting Lauletta, or Tanney, will probably result in a slightly better draft pick, but you will lose some players from a culture perspective. I don't care much either way.

I care that we take the best shot at getting out of QB hell. And that shot is in 2020, not 2019. Moreover, the line still sucks. Another year of improving the line will make the transition easier for whoever the new kid is in 2020.

And for those that think Eli will "mentor" the newbie, fuh-getta-bowddit!
Eli has no interest in that, and the first bad game he has, the deafening roar you will hear will be everybody calling for the kid to start. There will be no choice.
Playoffs?  
.McL. : 2/2/2019 3:52 pm : link
Quote:
Eli should be here because they feel they can win, get into the playoffs (which I do think DG believes). In that case, don't draft a QB, go for it.


Playoffs? Really? Seriously?

Cue Jim Mora...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2R2sH2ScBM
RE: RE: what Torrag said  
JonC : 2/2/2019 4:55 pm : link
In comment 14284408 Jim in Forest Hills said:
Quote:
In comment 14284363 JonC said:


Quote:


.



Minus the Finley part - ugh.


I like others, but agree with the tactic.
MCL - You are so wrong  
giantstock : 2/2/2019 5:31 pm : link
I can understand anyone saying go with defesnse when that person doesn't believe in the QB's. But your protectionism of Eli shows something far more bias.

In fact -

While you say there are those that say "ANYBODY BUT ELI", I think your opinion is incredibly bias because you have a formula how to build teams and they “MUST” do it ONLY YOUR WAY.

You make it sound like YOU KNOW Haskins isn’t much. Yet even as recently as last few days OURLADADS has Haskins 5th. I can remember Kiper putting him 10th. Many mocks have Haskins going 6th. Yet you as some anonymous poster that states that Haskins or Hebert or any other wouldn’t even be a 1st round pick any other year smells as an excuse of your “formula” way is the only way to build teams.

And in terms of 2019—I expect you’ll be a far richer man seeing how you believe we are more like a 3 win team than 7. Two years ago we won 3 games and that team was beyond god-awful. It appears you favor bringing back Eli? If so, please explain what type of a nut-job GM would bring back Eli for that type of contract vs a guy such as Siemian if you are a 3 or 4 win team? If the team is truly a 3-4 win team as you suggest why wouldn’t you look to save as much money possible and get some younger players that you can build with instead? Do you really think Vegas is going to open the giants as a 3-4 win team? Silly. So that must mean you are going to clean up in Vegas?

And what YOU need to keep in mind is that the 6th pick ALONG with a good 2nd rd pick ALONG WITH any moves Gmen make the GMen make in FA ALONG WITH a full year of Barkley AND OBJ ALONG WITH Eli will make them better than 3-4 wins ALONG WITH many other picks - the team won't be "static."

Nor do I think you understand drafting and value when it comes to top ten drafts when you draft a QB. When you get a QB that high it is rare that you’re ever going to get “value.” In your world you’ll rarely get a chance to draft that QB in the top ten of best players because you will always use an excuse to not draft one due to “value.” While teams around you trade up and get the QB you would have liked but “the value” or “the team” will rarely ever be “good enough.”

I have no doubt when 2020 rolls around and the Gmen's defense is poor or the OL still has issues you'll be saying the same thing to bypass the QB and "get value."

Then in 2021 you'll be singing the same yet again. Just think of all those teams that missed out on the 2020 QB's. You can then sing how the Gmen will get more "value."


If the Giants pass on a QB......  
johnboyw : 2/2/2019 5:56 pm : link
Pass rusher ( to replace Vernon). Josh Allen, Clelin Ferrell, Montez Sweat or Jachai Polite. Any one is an upgrade.
RE: MCL - You are so wrong  
Jimmy Googs : 2/2/2019 6:49 pm : link
In comment 14284647 giantstock said:
Quote:
I can understand anyone saying go with defesnse when that person doesn't believe in the QB's. But your protectionism of Eli shows something far more bias.

In fact -

While you say there are those that say "ANYBODY BUT ELI", I think your opinion is incredibly bias because you have a formula how to build teams and they “MUST” do it ONLY YOUR WAY.

You make it sound like YOU KNOW Haskins isn’t much. Yet even as recently as last few days OURLADADS has Haskins 5th. I can remember Kiper putting him 10th. Many mocks have Haskins going 6th. Yet you as some anonymous poster that states that Haskins or Hebert or any other wouldn’t even be a 1st round pick any other year smells as an excuse of your “formula” way is the only way to build teams.

And in terms of 2019—I expect you’ll be a far richer man seeing how you believe we are more like a 3 win team than 7. Two years ago we won 3 games and that team was beyond god-awful. It appears you favor bringing back Eli? If so, please explain what type of a nut-job GM would bring back Eli for that type of contract vs a guy such as Siemian if you are a 3 or 4 win team? If the team is truly a 3-4 win team as you suggest why wouldn’t you look to save as much money possible and get some younger players that you can build with instead? Do you really think Vegas is going to open the giants as a 3-4 win team? Silly. So that must mean you are going to clean up in Vegas?

And what YOU need to keep in mind is that the 6th pick ALONG with a good 2nd rd pick ALONG WITH any moves Gmen make the GMen make in FA ALONG WITH a full year of Barkley AND OBJ ALONG WITH Eli will make them better than 3-4 wins ALONG WITH many other picks - the team won't be "static."

Nor do I think you understand drafting and value when it comes to top ten drafts when you draft a QB. When you get a QB that high it is rare that you’re ever going to get “value.” In your world you’ll rarely get a chance to draft that QB in the top ten of best players because you will always use an excuse to not draft one due to “value.” While teams around you trade up and get the QB you would have liked but “the value” or “the team” will rarely ever be “good enough.”

I have no doubt when 2020 rolls around and the Gmen's defense is poor or the OL still has issues you'll be saying the same thing to bypass the QB and "get value."

Then in 2021 you'll be singing the same yet again. Just think of all those teams that missed out on the 2020 QB's. You can then sing how the Gmen will get more "value."



write less...say more
Two year process  
idiotsavant : 2/2/2019 7:00 pm : link
Lines aren't done yet. D is lacking needed players. The market is heavy, heavy on DL. That's not an excuse to wait on D. That's an opportunity to go big.

Folks lack patience.
RE: RE: MCL - You are so wrong  
giantstock : 2/2/2019 7:08 pm : link
In comment 14284736 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
In comment 14284647 giantstock said:


Quote:


I can understand anyone saying go with defesnse when that person doesn't believe in the QB's. But your protectionism of Eli shows something far more bias.

In fact -

While you say there are those that say "ANYBODY BUT ELI", I think your opinion is incredibly bias because you have a formula how to build teams and they “MUST” do it ONLY YOUR WAY.

You make it sound like YOU KNOW Haskins isn’t much. Yet even as recently as last few days OURLADADS has Haskins 5th. I can remember Kiper putting him 10th. Many mocks have Haskins going 6th. Yet you as some anonymous poster that states that Haskins or Hebert or any other wouldn’t even be a 1st round pick any other year smells as an excuse of your “formula” way is the only way to build teams.

And in terms of 2019—I expect you’ll be a far richer man seeing how you believe we are more like a 3 win team than 7. Two years ago we won 3 games and that team was beyond god-awful. It appears you favor bringing back Eli? If so, please explain what type of a nut-job GM would bring back Eli for that type of contract vs a guy such as Siemian if you are a 3 or 4 win team? If the team is truly a 3-4 win team as you suggest why wouldn’t you look to save as much money possible and get some younger players that you can build with instead? Do you really think Vegas is going to open the giants as a 3-4 win team? Silly. So that must mean you are going to clean up in Vegas?

And what YOU need to keep in mind is that the 6th pick ALONG with a good 2nd rd pick ALONG WITH any moves Gmen make the GMen make in FA ALONG WITH a full year of Barkley AND OBJ ALONG WITH Eli will make them better than 3-4 wins ALONG WITH many other picks - the team won't be "static."

Nor do I think you understand drafting and value when it comes to top ten drafts when you draft a QB. When you get a QB that high it is rare that you’re ever going to get “value.” In your world you’ll rarely get a chance to draft that QB in the top ten of best players because you will always use an excuse to not draft one due to “value.” While teams around you trade up and get the QB you would have liked but “the value” or “the team” will rarely ever be “good enough.”

I have no doubt when 2020 rolls around and the Gmen's defense is poor or the OL still has issues you'll be saying the same thing to bypass the QB and "get value."

Then in 2021 you'll be singing the same yet again. Just think of all those teams that missed out on the 2020 QB's. You can then sing how the Gmen will get more "value."





write less...say more


I'll write as much as I want thank you.
Blow it out your ear? IS that brief enough?
I am just saying your thought(s) gets lost  
Jimmy Googs : 2/2/2019 7:17 pm : link
in that much verbage. Not against your thoughts...just the lecture.

I'm fine with it since I'm used to the Giants  
Dave in Hoboken : 2/2/2019 7:25 pm : link
finishing under .500 at this point. And if people want to see Eli retire with a sub .500 record, who are we stop them? Enjoy.
*to stop them.  
Dave in Hoboken : 2/2/2019 7:26 pm : link
.
giantstock... Who made YOU the omnipotent football god  
.McL. : 2/3/2019 12:54 am : link
LOL...

First, I am not a blind Eli supporter. I even said in my post the Giants need to move on, and soon.

I said who plays in 2019 is irrelevant, I have said this many times, search it out, you will see I've been consistent about not supporting Eli or anybody else.

I have spent time looking at these QBs with what is available to me, mostly internet video which is admittedly not ideal. I have studied the tendencies of what are the profiles of players that succeed. None of these QBs jump out as anything special, and they come with other red flags.

As far as values is concerned I come from the financial industry. Drafting and team building to me is analogous to portfolio management. You value investments based on the the potential reward, the likelihood of that reward, how much you stand to lose and the likelihood of those losses.

Choosing a draft pick is similar. you look at the the potential of the player, how much they will cost in both draft value and real dollars, and you profile them to determine the likelihood of bust, and what bust does to your team. Picking a DE at #6 who busts is not nearly as damaging as picking a QB at 6 who busts, because QBs take longer to develop and know they are a bust. You waste more time on QBs. So when you go QB you need to minimize the downside risk.

How do you minimize the downside risk... Simple analysis... The more game tape you have to analyze of the player the better. The more situations you can see how the player performs better. 1 year starter, especially 1year starters that play in a conference that is generally much weaker than the QBs team is not a good situation for analysis. THese type of players represent too much risk for my liking. Plain and simple.

Haskins may be great, but with his player profile the likelihood of bust is way too high.

Lock, he does some nice things, but he misses too much for my liking. And many of his misses are just bad throws. And while his completion % has gone up this year, he was also attempting shorter passes. I look at his early games from 2 years ago and his recent games, and in IMHO, I don't see much of a progression. He seems to be what he always was. To me he looks like a mid round 2 prospect.

Murray scares me based on size and being another 1 year wonder. Again too much risk for me.

Already when I watch Tua, Fromm, and for sure Lawrence, they look eye poppingly better. I worry some about Tua's size and durability, but it would not stop me from drafting him and drafting him very high. His talent is worth that risk. Ultimately, I think I like Fromm just a smidge more at this point, I think his game translates a bit better to the NFL.

As per the Giants, I am under no illusion that this team is close to being competitive. Even with an influx of new talent in 2019... There isn't going to be much room for FA, unless you cut some starters, but then you have to replace those starters. The defense is just too awful at this point to expect more than a handful of wins, they still only have 40% of an offensive line. And Solder is 31 now, when does the timer run out on him, it can be at any point with players over 30. The offense may improve some but it will still struggle. Also, jackrabbit is still a good player, but his performance seems to be on a slow decline. This team is very top heavy, any injury to a starter and there is a huge drop-off to the backup. No, I am under no illusions about this roster, even with another decent off season, I cannot see this team do anything but suck in 2019 no matter what they do. That's why I say whoever is playing QB in 2019 is irrelevant as long as the team doesn't waste any additional resources on them.

Some things I am not in favor of... Signing Eli past 2019, significant FA spending with contracts that push the cap hit into future years. I want the team to get out of cap hell, and learn to manage it more responsibly.

So giantstock... YOU should not tell me what I think and believe, in that you are completely wrong, and your post hit wayyy off the mark.

I have explained the reasoning for my opinions in this post. I believe they are sound reasons. Other than YOU think that I am wrong. What sound reasons do you have?
MCL I DIDN''T  
giantstock : 2/3/2019 8:13 am : link
I was reacting to your initial post that Haskins is not that good for a 1st rd pick. Your post makes it like you're assured that he isn't that good.

who knows what Haskins will be? You made it sound like you know for certain. You don't. Yet you initially go off on a high horse digging those who think Haskins can be good thus it would be obvious that you can dump Eli.

And yes I agree with you that the 2nd half of Gmen performance is an illusion. But closer to a 3 win team? On this one I see no logic to it if you bring back Eli and get a couple of OL. Ut's as if you are so assured that you can't add two starters to an OL and have them perform at least "decently." It's not always a formula that you can't improve an OL in year 1 with two new OL who by the way will probably be more talented.

Heck I got into it with a poster who was disgusted with me because I felt Gmen had no shot of being a playoff team vs what your GM thought. He said I couldn't have known and I replied back that he and DG would have neen nuts NOT to have known. Our replies back-and-forth were not a big deal though he seemed thin-skinned.

In this case if you are as confident about your opinions of Haskins, and the team closer to a 3-13 record then fine. Later you went on to say maybe 5-11 but still--> 3-13 in that your mention of it you seem like you KNOW for certain. I replied to you in a manner "similar in kind" to your pov that you seem "so absolutely assured as if YOU are the one who actually knows."

My reply to you wasn't a big deal. jimmyG seems to think it was to an extent but imo it wasn't. You might be right 3-13 and Haskins is more like a 2nd rd guy. I don't know -- but I'm skeptical of your assurances.
MCL - about your Eli comment  
giantstock : 2/3/2019 8:25 am : link
When I replied to you just now the quote below I didn't explain well. Many that you believe dump on Eli at all costs and believe Haskins is a good 1st rd pick - they would be justified in their belief to dump him for Haskins if they think he's legit, right? YUou can still dump on eli and think Haskins is legit, right? Yet you make it sound like you KNOW FOR CERTAIN Haskins isn't much.



"who knows what Haskins will be? You made it sound like you know for certain. You don't. Yet you initially go off on a high horse digging those who think Haskins can be good thus it would be obvious that you can dump Eli."
giantstock...  
.McL. : 2/3/2019 1:13 pm : link
1. My comment was specific to Eli haters who will grasp at any QB that comes along. Be it Bridgewater, Foles, or god knows what other garbage as FA. During the college season they were all in on Herbert because he was the buzz. Herbert stays in school, and they all switch to Haskins because he is now the top dog QB and getting the buzz, maybe a few go to Murray and Lock. They do absolutely zero analysis or critical thinking. So yes I am highly critical of those posters and dismiss them out of hand. I spend time doing my own analysis, both of individuals players and overall trends (like the high bust rate of 1 year QB starters picked in the 1st round) My posts are almost never just personal opinion without some analysis backing it up, when they are I say so. If that's a high horse, then so be it...

2. I don't know what Haskins will become, what I know is that GMs and other experts do an extremely poor job of evaluating prospects with as little experience as Haskins. Compounding it is that he comes from a school where the talent around him dominates the conference he is in. That makes him an extremely high risk. In my mind a disqualifying high risk for the Giants. I have written this several times, it was written by others in this thread several times, I didn't feel the need to beat that dead horse.

3. I said that the 5 wins in 2018 were an illusion... Then still in the context of the 2018 team I say that this team is closer to 3 wins than 7. And there are too many holes to fill for the team not to suck in 2019... Try rereading what I wrote... I didn't think that was too hard to follow. Now, will the off season bring some improvement. Hopefully! But that will likely only get the team to a legitimate 5 win team. Context is important.
MCL - When you speak of CONTEXT -  
giantstock : 2/3/2019 4:56 pm : link
I've provided below what you posted and out in quotes:

"In any other year none of them including Herbert would be a first round pick. But the choices this year are so slim, some teams will reach for them."

You realize this is a minority view, right? And you make it sound so "obvious" that Haskins isn't "worthy."

So as I had said if you take this initial view and couple that with trying to decide in context iif you meant Gmen are 3 win or 5 win -- the context of your post looks like you are deliberately knocking Haskins and bringing up 3 win team to justify your opinion.

Not that it matters but once you seemed to suggest to Haskins was as if YOU KNEW Haskins was a 2nd rd worthy pick to me everything else fell in that in context you just don't want to 1st build through a QB and you needed to justify that by tearing down Haskins.

Again not that it matters but I'd be interested to know why you don't feel Haskins is 1st rd worthy?
RE: MCL - When you speak of CONTEXT -  
.McL. : 2/3/2019 5:49 pm : link
In comment 14285371 giantstock said:
Quote:
I've provided below what you posted and out in quotes:

"In any other year none of them including Herbert would be a first round pick. But the choices this year are so slim, some teams will reach for them."

You realize this is a minority view, right? And you make it sound so "obvious" that Haskins isn't "worthy."

So as I had said if you take this initial view and couple that with trying to decide in context iif you meant Gmen are 3 win or 5 win -- the context of your post looks like you are deliberately knocking Haskins and bringing up 3 win team to justify your opinion.

Not that it matters but once you seemed to suggest to Haskins was as if YOU KNEW Haskins was a 2nd rd worthy pick to me everything else fell in that in context you just don't want to 1st build through a QB and you needed to justify that by tearing down Haskins.

Again not that it matters but I'd be interested to know why you don't feel Haskins is 1st rd worthy?


I still stand by that comment. An when I wrote it I also backed it up with articles and quotes from other experts. I'm not sure its a minority opinion...

Since that comment included Herbert who was generally regarded as superior to Haskins at the time allow me to start with him.

Herbert plays in a 1 read spread offense. The problem I see with Herbert is that stares down one receiver, makes that 1 read, and if its not there he takes off and runs. He does not go through any sort of progression. My opinion is that if he has trouble making 1 read and progressing to another target, his game won't translate well to the NFL. I said this about him in the first 1/3 of the season. I also made a comment that as defensive coordinators get more film on him, they will figure out how to stop him. It seems thats what happened in the 2nd half of the season. And he became more erratic. This is part of the mental aspect of the game, if he is having trouble with the mental aspects of the game in a 1 read spread offense, how will he ever handle an NFL offense?

So right away, my opinion of Herbert is that he is not a 1st round prospect. That is my opinion after watching his performance in about 20 games, in which I did not see any progression in the mental aspects of the game.


Now, early on Haskins wasn't even on the radar. Even as the season progressed and concluded the general consensus was that Herbert was the better prospect. Since I already have Herbert as more likely a 2nd round talent, if he is better than Haskins, then Haskins ceiling is set.

That being said I watch about a dozen of Haskins games. He is big, strong and has arm talent no doubt. He seems to be more of a pocket passer. He uses his size to escape more than his feet,(that may not work as well in the NFL. In some of the games where he was pressured, he didn't anticipate it well, move fluidly and hit the hot receiver quickly. He seemed a little flustered. He seemed to get better as the year went, which is to be expected with his level of experience. But that is the nut of it, experience. I don't have anything really bad to say about his game. The problem is there just isn't enough of him on tape. Too many times he had literally 4 to 5 seconds in a perfectly clean pocket in which to throw the ball. Extremely hard to get a good read on him. From that perspective, I think he is just too great a risk. There are many analysis that have been done that talk about the risks of picking a 1 year wonder. Its true in the NFL as well. How many times has a backup come in and tore things up for a few games or even a season before SCs had enough tape and figured out how to shut him down. Same is true of college QBs. You need to see the evolve through that adversity to get a good read. Haskins hasn't had to do that.
DCs not Scs  
.McL. : 2/3/2019 5:51 pm : link
.
To be clear, I don't have specific faults in his game  
.McL. : 2/3/2019 6:08 pm : link
that are overwhelmingly bad.

He has some issues with footwork, mechanics, pocket presence, and needs to work on a quicker release. For a player with his level of experience, it is not unreasonable to expect that he can improve on all of these.

He does go through progressions, but he has all day long to do it. Hes never had games where he was under constant pressure and had to adjust. He has never had to go through adversity. He has never had to try an perform behind a line like the Giants line. Keep in mind for the first half of this season, Eli was getting rid of the ball on average in 1.8 seconds. That is 2.5 to 3 seconds less time that Haskins is used to getting. How will Haskins perform under those circumstance... Nobody has a clue because there are no clues out there on tape. Its a risk, a BIG risk.
If we pass on a QB  
dep026 : 2/3/2019 6:11 pm : link
and draft a stud OL or DL at 6, everything will be ok. I promise all you that.

If we take a QB at 6, we will still be ok.
MCL - ARE YOU SAYINNG MOST NFL  
giantstock : 2/3/2019 6:25 pm : link
Says that Haskins is more worthy of a 2nd rd pick? I'm talking Haskins.

As I posted to you OURLADS has him at 5. Kiper (not that he is much of anything) had him at 10.

You're trying to say most agree he isn't that good? And that you're opinion is of the majority?
RE: MCL - ARE YOU SAYINNG MOST NFL  
.McL. : 2/3/2019 6:34 pm : link
In comment 14285446 giantstock said:
Quote:
Says that Haskins is more worthy of a 2nd rd pick? I'm talking Haskins.

As I posted to you OURLADS has him at 5. Kiper (not that he is much of anything) had him at 10.

You're trying to say most agree he isn't that good? And that you're opinion is of the majority?

I am saying that in most years, I believe Haskins would be a 2nd rounder. But being that he is the top rated QB this year, he will get taken much higher than he should. And I could not care less about rankings like Ourlads. They are trying to guess where they WILL be picked, not where they SHOULD be picked.
And really you need to improve you reading comprehension  
.McL. : 2/3/2019 6:38 pm : link
Nowhere did I say he was not good. I said he is impossible to evaluate. That the problem with him is RISK. Try reading up on the history of QBs taken in the first round who had about 1 yr of starting experience in college. It's a pretty ugly read, sprinkled with a few gems.
RE: Tyrod Taylor for a 5th is great value  
djm : 2/3/2019 7:52 pm : link
In comment 14284121 Go Terps said:
Quote:
I'd be fine with that. But if course we'd have to prove we can develop a quarterback first... Something this franchise hasn't done in 15 years.


Lol. Tyrod Taylor is a jag. You aren’t developing shit with Tyrod fucking Taylor.
RE: MCL - When you speak of CONTEXT -  
.McL. : 2/3/2019 9:08 pm : link
In comment 14285371 giantstock said:
Quote:
I've provided below what you posted and out in quotes:

"In any other year none of them including Herbert would be a first round pick. But the choices this year are so slim, some teams will reach for them."

You realize this is a minority view, right? And you make it sound so "obvious" that Haskins isn't "worthy."



To be fair, I posted that comment on this thread, but I have said the same in the past. I posted articles and quotes at that time, but, I did not re-post them here.

As for a minority opinion, just take a look at this thread... Seems to me even the majority here on BBI don't think Haskins is worth the pick. And I have read plenty of article on the 2019 QB class where the opinion was that none were worth a 1st round but that teams will reach for them. Google it, I am sure you can find a whole bunch. Kiper, Ourlads and other sites make their money by trying to rank the players as close to the actual order they come off the board. Then they can pound their chest and tell everybody how good they are.

I'm not sure exactly what is bothering you here, I read what you wrote earlier...

Quote:
If they don't have a QB highly ranked, then you pass. But what scares me is that I'm concerned DG doesn't give a damn about positional value.

I agree with both of these statements.

Quote:
you got to have a plan to get <Barkley> a QB

agreed

Quote:
...the price you are going to have to pay for a QB will be astronomical.

I am not the least bit concerned about the price. Where there is a will there is a way. And as I have said before the value of a pick is no different whether you "sell your soul" or just suck enough for it.

you also mention concern about Solder's age, which I agree with as well. With the exception of your fretting over the cost of trading up, I don't see where our positions differ very much.

Maybe the evaluation of Haskins, or rather the inability properly evaluate. Maybe you are sold on him for some reason, but if that's the case, you certainly have not made that argument nor supported that opinion.

Here is an even more dire opinion of Haskins than mine...
Quote:
https://uploads-ssl.webflow.com/5988f684fda8db00017f4dee/5c3ce217b550266361049e6f_CFM2019_QB_Haskins_Dwayne.pdf

Almost everything I see about the 2019 class of QBs says its weak.
RE: RE: MCL - ARE YOU SAYINNG MOST NFL  
giantstock : 2/3/2019 11:28 pm : link
In comment 14285455 .McL. said:
Quote:
In comment 14285446 giantstock said:


Quote:


Says that Haskins is more worthy of a 2nd rd pick? I'm talking Haskins.

As I posted to you OURLADS has him at 5. Kiper (not that he is much of anything) had him at 10.

You're trying to say most agree he isn't that good? And that you're opinion is of the majority?


I am saying that in most years, I believe Haskins would be a 2nd rounder. But being that he is the top rated QB this year, he will get taken much higher than he should. And I could not care less about rankings like Ourlads. They are trying to guess where they WILL be picked, not where they SHOULD be picked.


Again we're talking "context" here. Below you said Haskins in any other year would not be a 1st rd pick. Overall in terms of context - I'm sure you've heard many mocks have haskins going early. while you say he wouldn't be a 1st rd pick any other year. That is the definition of "not that good" in regards to where he is probably expected to go vs where you think he is.

"In any other year none of them including Herbert would be a first round pick. But the choices this year are so slim, some teams will reach for them."

And as far as your comment BBI posters. Are you trying to suggest BBI posters have some validity in analysis? By you making this comment I see it as another desperate attempt to try to validate your formula pov.

I think you're being deceitful or just burying your head in the sand. I just did a simple mock search andBleacher, Walter Camp, CBS, Draft Wire, NBC Sports, Draft Tek, Draft Site and SI have Haskins mostly taken at 6 one has him 10 and one has him 7. SO you'd have to imply that all these sites are miracuously in agreement that Haskins is really a 2nd rd pick any other year. So your reluctance to even claim that your pov is not minority is crap. Even Kiper, and OURLADS has him 10 or higher this year. Bucky Brooks has him going 6 too.
Jimmy G  
giantstock : 2/3/2019 11:38 pm : link
This why I supposedly "lecture."

This guy MCL - I'm sure a gentleman and fine guy but he can't even admit his opinion is of a minority. He's got to fight down to that minutia?

Why?

IMO's because he has a view on how to build a team through his own systematic formula and he'll justify anything to try to make his opinion seem more valid. He's talking to me about his view of Haskins isn't a minority and one of his justification is BBI posters.

It wouldn't be a big deal to say his opinion is a minority. But he can't out of some insane hubris that his view is it. That's why its ok to "lecture" sometimes.

RE: RE: RE: MCL - ARE YOU SAYINNG MOST NFL  
.McL. : 2/3/2019 11:49 pm : link
In comment 14286246 giantstock said:
Quote:
In comment 14285455 .McL. said:


Quote:


In comment 14285446 giantstock said:


Quote:


Says that Haskins is more worthy of a 2nd rd pick? I'm talking Haskins.

As I posted to you OURLADS has him at 5. Kiper (not that he is much of anything) had him at 10.

You're trying to say most agree he isn't that good? And that you're opinion is of the majority?


I am saying that in most years, I believe Haskins would be a 2nd rounder. But being that he is the top rated QB this year, he will get taken much higher than he should. And I could not care less about rankings like Ourlads. They are trying to guess where they WILL be picked, not where they SHOULD be picked.



Again we're talking "context" here. Below you said Haskins in any other year would not be a 1st rd pick. Overall in terms of context - I'm sure you've heard many mocks have haskins going early. while you say he wouldn't be a 1st rd pick any other year. That is the definition of "not that good" in regards to where he is probably expected to go vs where you think he is.

"In any other year none of them including Herbert would be a first round pick. But the choices this year are so slim, some teams will reach for them."

And as far as your comment BBI posters. Are you trying to suggest BBI posters have some validity in analysis? By you making this comment I see it as another desperate attempt to try to validate your formula pov.

I think you're being deceitful or just burying your head in the sand. I just did a simple mock search andBleacher, Walter Camp, CBS, Draft Wire, NBC Sports, Draft Tek, Draft Site and SI have Haskins mostly taken at 6 one has him 10 and one has him 7. SO you'd have to imply that all these sites are miracuously in agreement that Haskins is really a 2nd rd pick any other year. So your reluctance to even claim that your pov is not minority is crap. Even Kiper, and OURLADS has him 10 or higher this year. Bucky Brooks has him going 6 too.

You don't seem to have much in the way of reading comprehension... I could not care less what all these mock draft sites say, they are trying to predict where they will come off the board in a given year. Not where they really should come off the board. My eyes have told me, and almost everything I read about this QB class says that its weak and teams will reach for these guys just because that's what teams do in weak QB classes. The other thing you insist on ignoring is that I am not really criticizing Haskins game. I even disagree somewhat with the article I posted and his evaluation of the Michigan game. Yes Haskins missed a whole bunch intermediate and deep throws. On almost every one, he was under some pressure. As I have commented early, Haskins hasn't seen much pressure and at this point he gets flustered by it.

Back in December when the college regular season ended. McShay was saying exactly the same thing as I was saying. and I posted it on BBI. I posted comments from other "experts" as well. The reports at that time were nearly unanimously saying that this was an extremely weak class that will get over drafted. If you look for real hard scouting reports and not the ones put out by mock draft sites, you will get a very different picture.

Fast forward 2 weeks and McShay is in mock draft mode and he changes his tune, and so do all the "experts", because hyping up these guys and trying to guess the right place they will actually be picked makes them money. Best to disregard all the nonsense.
RE: Jimmy G  
.McL. : 2/3/2019 11:54 pm : link
In comment 14286262 giantstock said:
Quote:
This why I supposedly "lecture."

This guy MCL - I'm sure a gentleman and fine guy but he can't even admit his opinion is of a minority. He's got to fight down to that minutia?

Why?

IMO's because he has a view on how to build a team through his own systematic formula and he'll justify anything to try to make his opinion seem more valid. He's talking to me about his view of Haskins isn't a minority and one of his justification is BBI posters.

It wouldn't be a big deal to say his opinion is a minority. But he can't out of some insane hubris that his view is it. That's why its ok to "lecture" sometimes.


If my opinion is a minority, then ok... Whatever... I guess I read different stuff. And I actually watch them play.

Besides, where have you actually stated YOUR opinion and backed it up with anything... Anything at all, except a bunch of mocks.
What you keep ignoring here is that  
.McL. : 2/4/2019 12:04 am : link
the real knock on Haskins is the RISK!!! Say it with me ARE EYE ESS KAY RISK!
The lack of tape and the lack of adverse situation available severely limits the evaluation of Haskins.

That seems to be an opinion held by many. I think its the majority, but maybe I am wrong. By the way, I don't think the mocks are necessarily wrong about the fact he will come off the board early. There is always some team that seems to be willing to ignore the risks, which I think is foolish... The history of these decisions is not good.
here are some opinions for your  
.McL. : 2/4/2019 1:12 am : link
Ryan Dunleavy of nj.com "(smarter) option is to wait until 2020"
https://www.nj.com/expo/sports/g66l-2019/01/f0d67900334391/nfl-draft-2020-cant-get-ohio-states-dwayne-haskins-this-qb-class-is-loaded-tua-tagovailoa-justin-herbert-and-more.html

Curt Macysyn (whoever the hell he is...) "This year’s quarterback class consists of Kyler Murray (Oklahoma), Dwayne Haskins (Ohio State), Drew Lock (Missouri) and Daniel Jones (Duke). Both Will Grier (West Virginia) and Ryan Finley (NC State) aren’t likely to crack the first-round, but they will be drafted, likely within the first three rounds."
https://gmenhq.com/2019/02/03/can-trust-new-york-giants-brass-get-qb-decision-right/

I am not sure he really meant that they are not likely to crack the first round, I think he meant that they shouldn't crack it... Haskins, Lock and Murray will almost certainly go in the first round.


nfl.com... I bolded the same weaknesses I mention
"Weaknesses
Small list of successful QBs with so few career starts
Lacks in-game adversity challenges for an early round pick
Front side can fly open causing throws to sail
Unusual follow through leaving his lower half behind
Still learning to attack zone coverage
Baited into bad decisions on high-low reads
Doesn't show enough caution against dropping linebackers
Will need to improve anticipatory intermediate throws
Has to be willing to come off primary reads when coverage dictates it
Needs to expedite his process in the face of pressure
Needs better feel for when to throw with touch
Accuracy on the move is below average
Below-average athlete who can't run away from trouble
Sluggish, heavy feet when he scrambles
Fumbles due to carelessness and lack of concentration on snaps"
https://www.nfl.com/prospects/dwayne-haskins?id=32462019-0002-5622-82e4-240100c37f30

And here is a copy of a google page of 2109 draft qb... Every mention of this QB class says its weak:
Quote:

Jan 10, 2019 - Murray's inclusion in the 2019 NFL Draft helps a quarterback class that many have described as weak. He's an explosive player and brings an entire new ...
Buffalo Bills Home | Buffalo Bills - buffalobills.com
https://www.buffalobills.com/

Jan 6, 2019 - Looking to take advantage of what promises to be weak class at quarterback, Buffalo signal caller Tyree Jackson has officially declared for the 2019 NFL Draft.
Why Detroit Lions should trade Stafford to Denver Broncos
https://www.freep.com/story/sports/nfl/lions/2019/01/11/detroit.../2548321002/

Jan 11, 2019 - Lions quarterback Matthew Stafford warms up before a game against the Green Bay Packers ... There's a chance the Broncos, who are flush with draft picks and have the 10th overall pick, could draft a quarterback. But this year's class is weak.
Buffalo QB Tyree Jackson declares for 2019 NFL Draft | Yardbarker.com
https://www.yardbarker.com/college...qb_tyree...draft/s1_12680_28158149

Jan 6, 2019 - Looking to take advantage of what promises to be a weak class at quarterback, Buffalo signal-caller Tyree Jackson has officially declared for the 2019 NFL Draft.
Chiefs QB Mahomes wins NFL MVP award » Albuquerque Journal
https://www.abqjournal.com/.../the-latest-kc-qb-mahomes-takes-top-offensive-player-...

4 days ago - They draft two or three elite rushers and feel like they have some type of early ... all they really have is a false sense of security at football's most fragile position. ... RB drafters by stockpiling high-upside WRs (and potentially TEs or even a QB).
More NFL Quarterbacks Declaring for the Draft - NY Giants Rush
https://nygiantsrush.com › NY Giants

Jan 15, 2019 - The Junior out of Oklahoma has declared for 2019 NFL Draft. ... Murray joins the, often dubbed, “weak” 2019 Quarterback Class that also features Dwayne ...
Layton Rabb, pursuing the NFL dream - KAUZ
www.newschannel6now.com/2019/02/04/layton-rabb-pursuing-nfl-dream/
33 mins ago - Former MSU quarterback Layton Rabb is pursuing a dream of being an NFL signal ... The 2019 draft class is widely considered a weak one for quarterbacks with ...
This is like a bad "Who's on first?" skit  
Jimmy Googs : 2/4/2019 8:23 am : link
only with excessive verbiage...

RE: I just haven't heard any other scenarios  
since1925 : 2/4/2019 11:19 am : link
In comment 14283687 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
other than "these QBs aren't worth the 6th pick"...ok...so...what's the alternative plan for the future QB of this team?


Don't grab a QB just to grab a QB. Getting the wrong QB because you are desperate is not a solution. Deal with QB when it is advantageous to, wait.

We already wasted four QB picks on guys who couldn't cut it.
RE: I don't think  
Jersey55 : 2/4/2019 5:21 pm : link
In comment 14283676 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
Quote:
any of these QBs are worth taking @ 6 so I'll be relieved.


are you saying that you will be relieved to have Eli back at QB for next season, you do realize that that gives us no hope at all and just more of the same crap..
That maybe the Giants are starting to figure out how the 2019 NFL  
arniefez : 2/4/2019 5:25 pm : link
works?
Hahaha ---- Googs wins  
idiotsavant : 2/4/2019 7:19 pm : link
Who's on First.

That's what it's become. Round n round. Hahaha.
RE: RE: I don't think  
uther99 : 2/5/2019 8:06 pm : link
In comment 14287337 Jersey55 said:
Quote:
In comment 14283676 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:


Quote:


any of these QBs are worth taking @ 6 so I'll be relieved.



are you saying that you will be relieved to have Eli back at QB for next season, you do realize that that gives us no hope at all and just more of the same crap..


7 wins, Yay!
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