Been thinking about this for a few days. Let's say we are up at 6 and every QB in the draft is available. Haskins, Lock, Murray, whoever, pick your poison. Gettleman passes and goes for someone like Devin White, a DL, or hell maybe even Jonah Williams if he's there. What's everyone opinion on the immediate reaction? Me - I probably have a pit in my stomach knowing that they are passing the buck again on QB, but ultimately probably didn't fall in love with any of the prospects, making the decision explainable for sure. I'd be thinking "we better pray that none of these QBs turn out to be the goods." I'd also be thinking, I hope we go 5-11 again because if we win 7-9 games, we'll have to trade the farm for a top QB next year, when a somewhat better class of QBs are available.
I will just be really disappointed if we pass again. I'm sick of losing and I'm kinda sick of Eli sucking every other game. I think the franchise needs a jolt, or at the very least, hope for the future that we have our guy. The thought of not knowing AGAIN for another year would just be brutal.
I'd also start to question the overall direction of the team. I'd start to think that maybe Gettleman and Shurmur think that teams can win championships or at the very least go pretty far without a franchise caliber QB (like the Vikings with Keenum). Do they truly believe that the QB is the most important position among all others and if you don't have a really good one, you can't compete year over year.
It's definitely going to be interesting. One thing I know for sure is that I'm still of the opinion that Haskins + Barkley is better than Darnold and no Barkley. I'm going to be somewhat shocked if we don't take a QB, and it'll just take the air out of the room on draft night for a lot of us I think..
Aaaaand, you offense, QB and skills focused folks get to go absolutely batshit draft crazy over the top in 2020.
Comprehensive A then comprehensive B.
Not maybes
My dream scenario is that there is a trade up competition and either the Giants are able to trade back, get a 3rd this year and a 1st next year and still get help on the OL or DL in round 1.
My other preferred scenario is that there is a run up with multiple teams trading up ahead of the Giants and one of Bosa, Q Williams or J Allen is sitting there at 6th overall.
1) Haskins and Murray are available to the Giants this year, but I wouldnt trade up for either.
2) Foles is available in Free Agency if they want him and they can cut Eli.
3) One of Tua, Herbert, or Fromm should be available if they choose to trade up next year.
4) Brissett, Mariota and Winston are all Free Agents next year.
5) Lawrence is available in 2021.
NOBODY knows which way this will go. We can run in circles forever talking about it. What we do know is, this team is ready to move on from Eli in the next year or so, so the Eli haters can stop getting their panties in a bunch. It is GOING to happen. We just have to have faith that PS and DG make the right choice.
In the meantime, this Front Office's sole focus should be building up the team AROUND the QB position so that all of the pressure doesnt land on said QB to carry the team at the outset (much like they did for Eli and Big Ben early in their careers).
He was on a talented team and his starting experience level (limited) 1.5 seasons....
I am wondering are people saying OBJ, EE, SS and SB are not talented? Yup the OL needs to improve but that is the case with Eli, another vet, a different rookie ... etc
2ndly the knock on him experience wise .... Most college QBs really only start 2 seasons on avg ... some get 2.5 in rare cases 3 very seldom do you see 4 yr starters at QB.
Not saying he should be the pick but to a degree the knocks on him are partially fabricated.
The knock is that he appears to have slow feet and not do well when pressured.
He was on a talented team and his starting experience level (limited) 1.5 seasons....
I am wondering are people saying OBJ, EE, SS and SB are not talented? Yup the OL needs to improve but that is the case with Eli, another vet, a different rookie ... etc
2ndly the knock on him experience wise .... Most college QBs really only start 2 seasons on avg ... some get 2.5 in rare cases 3 very seldom do you see 4 yr starters at QB.
Not saying he should be the pick but to a degree the knocks on him are partially fabricated.
The "knock" on Haskins playing with talented team - versus the rest of the B1G - is not fabricated.
It's a legitimate question. How much was his performance enhanced by his surrounding talent?
The best friend for a QB is protection.And if you are getting it, you play relaxed and play loose and free. I think that was Haskins for almost the entire year.
If you can explain to me how that is enough content to give you confidence that Haskins can be a top pro QB, I'm all ears...
Or it could mean DG let one or more good ones slip by...
[quote] In my opinion, that won't be a QB, because none of them will be the BPA at 6. Could not agree more.
This isn't the NBA, you can't tank for a season or two or four to get good. But it doesn't help to get a mediocre quarterback just because you want to move on from Eli.
There's no sure thing here regardless. Free agents bust. Draft picks bust. Vets get hurt. It's all a gamble. Let's not pretend otherwise.
This isn't the NBA, you can't tank for a season or two or four to get good. But it doesn't help to get a mediocre quarterback just because you want to move on from Eli.
There's no sure thing here regardless. Free agents bust. Draft picks bust. Vets get hurt. It's all a gamble. Let's not pretend otherwise.
Watch Miami this season (if you can bear to). They will be enacting what they call an "organic tank". Not purposely trying to throw games, but rather to field a team that can not compete and will "organically" lose. Ross has his eyes on Tua and wants to ensure his team is in position to draft him.
Organic Tanking - Miami Style - ( New Window )
Or trade out of 6 for a late rounder and a 1 in 2020.
Day two means the #34 overall pick.
DG had better find at least two OL he likes in this year's draft but they can come from the latter rounds I suppose.
DG had better find at least two OL he likes in this year's draft but they can come from the latter rounds I suppose.
I agree, this draft is deep in Dl and at 6 we can get a serious DL of the likes of Suh and Darnold
Terps, IDK what's happened to you as I used to enjoy your goofy posts because at least they represented a type of coherent philosophy about the game. But now you contradict yourself from post to post like you're a different guy each time.
To wit, with all your sermonizing about the value of cost-controlled players you suggest taking a late round QB with one of the apparently longest learning curves ahead of him of anyone in this draft? By the time Jackson will be ready to lead a team to the SB he'll be in the 3rd or 4th year of his 4 year rookie deal. No 5th year option either with a mid rounder, so he'll be a UFA when, after you've gotten at most 2-3 years' service from him?
On top of that, you suggest taking a guy whose upside is Cam Newton? Newton sucks (you acknowledge he's a shitty thrower by NFL standards) and going forward he's a yoke around the Panthers' pathway to success, IMO.
Joey in VA : 5:36 pm : link : reply
Nab a QB in 2 or 3, someone with warts but upside and go BPA in round 1. Wait, we don't have a 3, nevermind.
Nassib, Webb or KL? Well, if at first you don't succeed, keep making the same mistake.....waste a pick and another roster spot because you carry 3 qb's....
That said the Giants may be sitting on the best RB of all time. IMO they should optimize the situation - meaning best possible run blocking OLine + great D.
1st round pick has to be defense. Sign RT Daryl Williams, re-sign RG J.Brown, and take the best interior OL you can find in round 2. Start hauling ass and almost being stupid in the amount of resources being spent on the OL. If you lose Shepard or Collins? Fuck it. Build the OL. Let Barkley try to single-handedly win games. Get good players behind him too.
Under that scenarios - if Shurmur can resist the urge to showoff a passing game - Eli is a strong play action QB.
Quote:
Why not use a fourth or fifth on the raw guy with tools - Jackson? Why not use him the same way Carolina uses Newton? Newton's a shitty thrower by NFL standards, but the size and movement raises his floor significantly.
Terps, IDK what's happened to you as I used to enjoy your goofy posts because at least they represented a type of coherent philosophy about the game. But now you contradict yourself from post to post like you're a different guy each time.
To wit, with all your sermonizing about the value of cost-controlled players you suggest taking a late round QB with one of the apparently longest learning curves ahead of him of anyone in this draft? By the time Jackson will be ready to lead a team to the SB he'll be in the 3rd or 4th year of his 4 year rookie deal. No 5th year option either with a mid rounder, so he'll be a UFA when, after you've gotten at most 2-3 years' service from him?
On top of that, you suggest taking a guy whose upside is Cam Newton? Newton sucks (you acknowledge he's a shitty thrower by NFL standards) and going forward he's a yoke around the Panthers' pathway to success, IMO.
Newton for a fourth or fifth round pick is a hell of a value, if we can develop Jackson into something.
The point is why draft a QB at 6 when:
1. None of the QBs in the draft merit the pick, and
2. We're going to waste a year of him because the mandate is that Eli is the quarterback in 2019?
What if it develops Jackson into the talent that a 5th round pick would show? What if he becomes a one-dimensional Cam Newton?
It's like saying, just pick the largest RB in a late round. He can be Brandon Jacobs.
If we pick Jackson and he develops into being like Tyrod Taylor, do we really gain anything?
Tyrod Taylor sucks.
The Giants have bought too many lottery tickets over the years on late round QBs — last year included. Believe it or not, but those late round picks sometimes turn into high quality players. Sometimes they’re used to move into other rounds for quality players. The Giants should go that route vs burning another pick on a developmental QB with a close to zero percent chance of being the future.
I'd rather draft Finley in Round 2 than force someone at #6 TBH.
Then there will be the group that is pleased because they are convinced none of these qbs are worth the 6 pick.
Another group, will be devasted because they want to desperately move on from Eli
And the group led by Paul Dottino, the ones who will always find something wrong with the quarterback crop as long as Eli is here will smuggly insist it was the right decision.
Forms ideal scenario, Giants determine one of these guys is it, and Eli quarterbacks Giants next season. The Giants offense was pretty good the last 8 games of the season.
If they don't go after a QB in rd 1, I would NOT do anything beforehand in FA (they must have an idea if they like a QB or two etc before making this decision obviously.) of any significance in contract value.
You need a good QB to sustain winning if you get him the weapons. The Chiefs and 2016 Falcons showed you can win with a crummy defense.
I'm like the OP I love a super defense is more fun for me to watch the GMEN. But with the rules -- and Barkley is THAT GOOD - you got to have a plan to get him a QB. To blindly follow BPA without regard positional value (QB) will severely impact the opportunities for Barkley to become a super beast.
***Please don't use him to try to win games "14-13" like the Bears used Payton.
And unless you stink again of 5-11 or worse - the price you are going to have to pay for a QB will be astronomical. And if you build up that OL quite a bit and thre defesne quite a bit then you aren't going to be 5-11.
It can be okay if you get all young players but if you get older players like Solder - they are going to decline by the time you get the QB and get real good.
*To sell your soul and trade up for a QB when you are 7-9 or 8-8 isn't the best alternative, is it? Nor can you ignore it?
then wonder how frustrating it will be if we have the "anti-Playoff Eli at QB" in that we get in playoffs a couple of years from now but just can't consistently put up enough points because the other team has a high-powered offense and just stacks the box vs SB.
the rest of the NFL knows that too. They just aren't going to sit back, right?
It happens time and time and time and time again. It didn’t hurt the Eagles trading for Wentz. It didn’t hurt KC trading for Mahomes. And this years rookie class is off to a good start.
This.
It's the old 'cascading effect'. You can get a great like odb or others, BUT then are usually a pick behind, too late, to address the core, for the rest of the draft .
Conversely, when the #1 goes towards core, you get your pick all the way down, as long as you maintain the approach of position target discipline:
In other words, for example, you might get the #3 overall (x random example center) in (y round, 3) if you are not reaching for an OT or searching, rolling dice, for upside on a QB or WR.
That's why I'm segregating the skills on offense to free agency until 2020.
'there might not be a QB in 2020'
I say, so what.
I may not agree with this plan, but its better than dipping your toe in the pool.
It's not quite taking a flier by picking one in the second, but by doing so, you're counting on him to start and getting terrible value if he doesn't. The Giants need a QB of the future. They need a lot of position talent, and can't afford to miss on a top pick. a miss at #2 is a bad miss. the warts/question marks don't get any less real just because they're better 'value'. Be damn sure any QB taken is a legitimate prospect and not anything resembling a good value flier.
So in this case - suppose Haskins is real good and you select him 6th and you've gotten Morse at center and Williams at RT. In 2019 the offense struggles because the young QB makes a lot of mistakes. So how good would the record be? At best 6-10 but possibly worse.
Now after you select a QB in rd 1, you can get a pass rusher in rd 2 or trade up a bit to get 1 in later rd 1. When you look over good pass rushers in the NFL, many are also late 1st rounders or beyond.
After this you can go crazy on defense drafting for the remainder of this draft and the draft in 2020 (not EVERY pick on d). Plus you might even be able to trade-down in 2020 because another team will look to trade up for a QB possibly. Also you have FA in 2020 as well.
In the scenarios I cite you aren't giving up players- you might even be "ACQUIRING MORE."
We can certainly have a decent enough defense and an explosive offense if the QB in 2019 is good, right? And there would be no reason that "the core" you cite can't be operational in 2020 with the philosophy I've just explained, right? But in this case, we're giving up less players rather than "trading up" for a QB which could end up being astronomical.
Have to recognize though the game has changed to favor more offense. It doesnt mean Defense is irrelevant though.
'there might not be a QB in 2020'
I say, so what.
Without the most important position on the football field, we won't be a contender. Until you get that QB everything becomes "so what . . . "
The Chiefs this year and Falcons of 2016 showed you can have a crummy D. I understand Jax showed you can have a crummy QB - but imo the defense is light years away from 2017 Jax while the offense needs a good QB with just two Olinmen.
We're closer offensively to 2016 Falcons and this year Chiefs once we get the QB than anything dominant defensively like Jax was.
Doesn't have to be in the top 5 -- but year after year most of those guys go in top 30-40.
And at some point the Giants staff will need to develop a QB. If Shurmur is who his reputation says he is, it's a must. It's likely how he keeps his job.