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Very damning article on the Giants cap allocation

Sean : 2/2/2019 10:44 am
I know what the rebuttal will be, ďthis is what happens when you have a decade of bad drafting.Ē However, money spent in FA has added to the problem. This team is way too too heavy & it will take time to fix. From a cap perspective, itís amazing how much more efficient the money was spent in 2011.
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I enjoy reading the New England/BB posts  
UConn4523 : 2/2/2019 12:33 pm : link
you guys are quite funny. Iím still trying to figure out why everyone else hasnít caught up yet. Dallasí OLine came with a massive investment, so why is Belichicks good without having to spend?

The answer is itís a fucking anomaly. A perfect storm of HC/QB/Orangizational buy in and structure. But hey, itís so simple to copy.
RE: I enjoy reading the New England/BB posts  
christian : 2/2/2019 12:43 pm : link
In comment 14284404 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
you guys are quite funny. Iím still trying to figure out why everyone else hasnít caught up yet. Dallasí OLine came with a massive investment, so why is Belichicks good without having to spend?

The answer is itís a fucking anomaly. A perfect storm of HC/QB/Orangizational buy in and structure. But hey, itís so simple to copy.


There are clearly different ways to come build a good offensive line. The Patriots do it with great coaching, the Rams did it with steady acquisitions, the Cowboys invested at the top of the draft across many years, the Colts did it cluster drafting in a short period of time.

I'd be in favor of the Giants doing any of those approaches, but none of them include wildly overpaying for a 30-year-old middle tier tackle.
RE: I enjoy reading the New England/BB posts  
K-Gun? Pop-Gun : 2/2/2019 12:45 pm : link
In comment 14284404 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
you guys are quite funny. Iím still trying to figure out why everyone else hasnít caught up yet. Dallasí OLine came with a massive investment, so why is Belichicks good without having to spend?

The answer is itís a fucking anomaly. A perfect storm of HC/QB/Orangizational buy in and structure. But hey, itís so simple to copy.


Dante Scarnecchia
Christian  
UConn4523 : 2/2/2019 12:50 pm : link
paying solder is the least of our problems. This was an almost decade long problem, Solders money isnít ideal but itís far from the reason the OLine has stunk.
RE: ...  
santacruzom : 2/2/2019 12:51 pm : link
In comment 14284321 christian said:
Quote:
Bad drafting doesn't require free agent mistakes. Bad drafting actually opened up UFA -- the Giants didn't re-sign a 1st round pick for ages.


Yeah... I don't particularly see this as being an inexorable symptom of bad drafting.
Solder Signing Here  
Samiam : 2/2/2019 12:51 pm : link
I remember reading something to the effect that he had a sick child with a rare disease and that the best treatment was in the NY area. If NE offered big bucks, it was going to take a huge offer to get Solder. Plus, as Christian said above, who was going to play LT. Also, like itís very easy to trade a mid round pick for s starting LT. Right,

To the other point, BB is smarter than anyone else plus he has a great QB who has been willing to take less than market value plus he has some outstanding assistants plus he has a weak division so he can use the season to get ready for the playoff. Lots of reasons for his success
RE: Christian  
christian : 2/2/2019 1:06 pm : link
In comment 14284418 UConn4523 said:
Quote:
paying solder is the least of our problems. This was an almost decade long problem, Solders money isnít ideal but itís far from the reason the OLine has stunk.


I don't think there is such a thing as a decade long problem in the NFL. Virtually if not literally nothing a team did a decade ago has any bearing on how they operate now.

The New York Giants have an acute here and now issue; 57% of their 2019 salary cap is allocated to 6 players, and arguably only one of them is top 10 in the NFL at his position.

Nate Solder is squarely a part of a big a problem the Giants have.

I totally get the Giants have made a series of historical bad decisions in the draft, coaching, FA etc., but I completely agree with the article.

The Giants have a top heavy salaried team, and that is keeping the Giants from buidling up talent in other areas.
can't bring myself to believe this is a good idea  
ColHowPepper : 2/2/2019 1:22 pm : link
Quote:
One way to do that, as explained here, is to convert the base salary into a signing bonus and tack on an extra year or two to help absorb the new prorated money while keeping things fluid regarding Manningís future rostered status.
Yeah, that's the ticket, tack on another couple of years to Manning's career here, and even if he's cut in 2020, kick that can and the $$ down the road. Let's pay more money over more years for an (overvalued) asset that does not figure in the team's future plans.

Don't want to get in to the QB debate on this thread, but it always rankled me that when it came time to renegotiate Eli's contract (in 2012?), it seemed that there was no negotiation and the FO just lay down and took Condon's demand.
RE: RE: The  
BillT : 2/2/2019 1:26 pm : link
In comment 14284394 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 14284391 BillT said:


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Is bogus. New England offered Solder almost as much as we did.

"One of the most notable tidbits from the 29-year old was him telling that the Patriots and Giants both offered him ďsomewhat equal moneyĒ, according to The Athletic's Patricia Traina.

He was NEs number one FA priority.



That's a vague and incomplete assertion. Maybe the overall dollar figures were the same, but I strongly doubt the guarantees or the guarantees at signing were close.

If Nate Solder turned down roughly the same contract to leave a perennial championship contender for the 3-13 New York Giants, I deeply question his judgement.

Sure there were differences but overall the Pats offered him very near the same amount the Giants did.
the issue isn't being top heavy  
GiantsFan84 : 2/2/2019 2:18 pm : link
the issue is the super high priced guys are underperforming (i.e. Eli and Vernon). If Eli was still very good and Vernon wrecking games as a pass rusher they wouldn't be having the problems they currently do.
RE: RE: Doesnít really matter  
WillVAB : 2/2/2019 2:47 pm : link
In comment 14284390 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 14284382 WillVAB said:


Quote:


Unless theyíre in a position where they canít afford to keep someone they want to keep ó which they arenít.



It matters when they can't afford to add the type of players they want.

It also matters when the roster is compromised of a number of throw away players on one year deals, who are being aksed to fill key roles.


Your first point is the issue presented in this article. The Giants have paid for the players they wanted. The returns have sucked overall.

Your second point is a drafting/UDFA problem. This is what happens when you net 1-2 decent players a year for the better part of 10 years.

It all comes down to the draft. If the Giants keep having drafts like last year they will be fine.
...  
christian : 2/2/2019 3:05 pm : link
If Vernon and Manning were great and playing up to their contract -- the Giants would have two less problems, but still have a bunch of holes.
Soldier  
Bluesbreaker : 2/2/2019 3:11 pm : link
Started next to a rookie who started next to a garbage center and RT and Guard Halapio went down it got worse with Pulley
Hernandez progressed as he did Soldier started to lay better
Wheeler was a disaster .So we had little choice but to fill
the spot with Flowers a total failure who I won't be shocked
if he is out of football soon .
We will have draft 2-3 players for the O-line and again go to
the free agency pool .LT's don't grow on trees
RE: RE: RE: Doesnít really matter  
christian : 2/2/2019 3:18 pm : link
In comment 14284523 WillVAB said:
Quote:
In comment 14284390 christian said:


Quote:


In comment 14284382 WillVAB said:


Quote:


Unless theyíre in a position where they canít afford to keep someone they want to keep ó which they arenít.



It matters when they can't afford to add the type of players they want.

It also matters when the roster is compromised of a number of throw away players on one year deals, who are being aksed to fill key roles.



Your first point is the issue presented in this article. The Giants have paid for the players they wanted. The returns have sucked overall.

Your second point is a drafting/UDFA problem. This is what happens when you net 1-2 decent players a year for the better part of 10 years.

It all comes down to the draft. If the Giants keep having drafts like last year they will be fine.


The Giants have overallocated resources to the top in free agency and the return has been bad.

They also aren't going to have 4 top 70 picks regularly, like they did in the last draft.

They need to stop signing average players to prime contracts and continue to draft well.

Those are absolutely not mutually exclusive concepts.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Doesnít really matter  
WillVAB : 2/2/2019 4:15 pm : link
In comment 14284559 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 14284523 WillVAB said:


Quote:


In comment 14284390 christian said:


Quote:


In comment 14284382 WillVAB said:


Quote:


Unless theyíre in a position where they canít afford to keep someone they want to keep ó which they arenít.



It matters when they can't afford to add the type of players they want.

It also matters when the roster is compromised of a number of throw away players on one year deals, who are being aksed to fill key roles.



Your first point is the issue presented in this article. The Giants have paid for the players they wanted. The returns have sucked overall.

Your second point is a drafting/UDFA problem. This is what happens when you net 1-2 decent players a year for the better part of 10 years.

It all comes down to the draft. If the Giants keep having drafts like last year they will be fine.



The Giants have overallocated resources to the top in free agency and the return has been bad.

They also aren't going to have 4 top 70 picks regularly, like they did in the last draft.

They need to stop signing average players to prime contracts and continue to draft well.

Those are absolutely not mutually exclusive concepts.


My point is the cap and overspending in FA arenít the reasons the Giants have been bad as this article suggests.

Theyíve been bad because their drafts have been terrible.

Those terrible drafts opened up money that Reese used on bad FA deals.

Looking specifically at the Giants in FA, the primary issue isnít the Vernon type deals (which I despise), but the multiple, terrible lower tiered deals. Casillas, Dwayne Harris, Brandon Marshall, Ellison, etc type deals add up to big money for next to nothing in return.
The Giants are a total mess  
arniefez : 2/2/2019 4:28 pm : link
They don't understand asset allocation at all and they are way behind the good organizations in player evaluation and analytics. Until the Owners are willing to turn over the roster to a GM that has real authority and is not a prehistoric relic it will not get better.
We are still talking about Solder??  
EricJ : 2/2/2019 4:31 pm : link
dont some of you have anything else to talk about other than one free agent signing?

The same people would have killed DG for not signing Solder. The same people here offered no alternative to signing Solder even with the benefit of hindsight.
Pretty straightforward fixes...  
bw in dc : 2/2/2019 4:45 pm : link
that can be done immediately.

Cut Eli, let Collins go, let Jenkins go, let Vernon go.

Just take away the names to avoid any emotion and sentimentality, basically we:

Adios an immobile 38 year old, a safety who is a liability against the pass, an overpaid corner, and an oft-injured, unreliable pass rusher.

How hard was that?
RE: Pretty straightforward fixes...  
EricJ : 2/2/2019 4:51 pm : link
In comment 14284605 bw in dc said:
Quote:
that can be done immediately.

Cut Eli,
Adios an immobile 38 year old,

How hard was that?


When you cut him, who is playing QB or the Giants?

We can have the most cap space of any team in the league if we just cut the entire roster. You can win the pre-season cap trophy.
RE: We are still talking about Solder??  
christian : 2/2/2019 7:45 pm : link
In comment 14284598 EricJ said:
Quote:
dont some of you have anything else to talk about other than one free agent signing?

The same people would have killed DG for not signing Solder. The same people here offered no alternative to signing Solder even with the benefit of hindsight.


There were plenty of alternatives. The Giants easily could have done exactly what the Patriots ended up doing and trading for Trent Brown and his 2M cap hit.

But they "won" the Solder sweepstakes. Awesome?
RE: RE: Pretty straightforward fixes...  
bw in dc : 2/2/2019 8:11 pm : link
In comment 14284614 EricJ said:
Quote:
In comment 14284605 bw in dc said:


Quote:


that can be done immediately.

Cut Eli,
Adios an immobile 38 year old,

How hard was that?



When you cut him, who is playing QB or the Giants?

We can have the most cap space of any team in the league if we just cut the entire roster. You can win the pre-season cap trophy.


Where are we going with Eli? 8-8...tops? Maybe, 9-7? Most likely 7 wins or <.

Do you want to play the short game? Or the longer game where we can start building for success and stop crossing our fingers or rubbing rabbits feet hoping for a good season. Letís keep hoping the football gods grant us a third wish...

Iíd do one of three things...Play a rookie QB. Play Lauletta. Or trade for Jeff Driskell, who played well filling in for the injured Dalton.

Itís time to use cap money to build a team that fits todayís game. Need to get younger and faster on D. And keep building an oline that has youth and depth. Or find someone who can do that effectively.
RE: RE: Pretty straightforward fixes...  
christian : 2/2/2019 8:20 pm : link
In comment 14284614 EricJ said:
Quote:
In comment 14284605 bw in dc said:


Quote:


that can be done immediately.

Cut Eli,
Adios an immobile 38 year old,

How hard was that?



When you cut him, who is playing QB or the Giants?

We can have the most cap space of any team in the league if we just cut the entire roster. You can win the pre-season cap trophy.


Actually, with the number of shit deals the Giants have they could literally cut the entire roster and not even sniff what the Colts have over the next 2 years in cap space.

The terrible general management over the last 3 years can't be understated.

RE: We are still talking about Solder??  
Ten Ton Hammer : 2/2/2019 8:31 pm : link
In comment 14284598 EricJ said:
Quote:


The same people would have killed DG for not signing Solder. The same people here offered no alternative to signing Solder even with the benefit of hindsight.


Why do you keep asking for fans to come up with an alternative to solder? That's not a legitimate argument. Fans aren't supposed to know the entirely of available talent in the NFL. That's the front office's job.

When gettleman was in the front office years ago, the Giants used to do a good job of finding players that could contribute from other team's rosters.
RE: RE: Love the logic  
Ten Ton Hammer : 2/2/2019 8:35 pm : link
In comment 14284381 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
In comment 14284376 Ten Ton Hammer said:


Quote:


"If they didnt wildly overspend to fix this roster hole, what would they have done instead"?

That's the difference between good teams and bad teams. Good teams dont blunt force "fix" a weakness with a sledgehammer. Thats the easiest and sometimes laziest way to address an issue.

Belichick wasnt paying Solder that. Oh look, they're in the super bowl again, and OL isnt a problem for New England.

Good teams find value. Average teams throw money around.





A team run by Belichick is an outlier, period. I put little credence into using them as an example for anything. Same with Lombardi..


It's not black magic or alchemy. Belichick understands value. He pays an offensive line coach a lot of money because he makes their players better. Coaches don't count against the cap, so get the best ones possible and find the talent he can work with.
Eli  
Giantophile : 2/3/2019 7:37 am : link
Makes way too much money relative to his performance.

Sure, others do too and what's why we are where we are. Its not complicated.

Bringing him back at that price for another bite of the apple is a ludicrous business decision.
You can have a top heavy cap  
Doomster : 2/3/2019 8:57 am : link
and win.....

But those players have to perform.....

Did anyone perform up to their contract?

Eli left a lot of plays out there on the field this year....

OBj got his money and didn't have an OBj year, and once again missed playing time...

OV was MIA and showed he could play against backups, but still couldn't contain his end...

Solder played better at the end? Is that when we needed him?

Jenkins? How many big pass plays did this guy give up? He may be out best CB, but he is nothing like the 2016 Jenkins........

So is cutting everyone the answer? Of course not....you end up with dead cap and possibly paying more for the replacement....

Yes, the draft is a big problem, especially when you consider we don't even re-sign our own players.....and when we do, do we get what we paid for?

Where are the building blocks for this team? It is going to take awhile, and I don't think we have the people in charge to get this done as fast as possible....
RE: RE: We are still talking about Solder??  
EricJ : 2/3/2019 9:20 am : link
In comment 14284814 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:

Why do you keep asking for fans to come up with an alternative to solder? That's not a legitimate argument. Fans aren't supposed to know the entirely of available talent in the NFL. That's the front office's job.


It is simple... fans have no problem saying they would not have made a particular move but then offer no alternative. If you do not know what other talent was available, then I am not sure how you can say it was a bad move.

It was my contention that there truly was no other realistic alternative available. Here are some facts which may help...

1. We had a shit show on the OL especially LT with Flowers.
2. Fans have been saying that we were ignoring the OL for years.
3. DG comes in and sees that he has to do something about left tackle
4. Solder was not a superstar the prior year by any means, but he was getting the job done.
5. There were no other LTs available who our personnel guys thought were a better option. (this is where your comment about fans no knowing comes in).
6. If we did not sign anyone, then fans would have crucified DG just as much for once again ignoring the OL problem. You know this would have happened.
7. Solder's play dropped off significantly from the prior year with the Pats. Many here thought we paid Solder too much but that was a cap discussion. NOBODY here thought Solder was going to play this poorly during the first half of the season... nobody.
8. The poor drafting and free agent signings from the prior GM basically made this choice inevitable. Reese left DG with little choice here but to sign Solder.
---  
Peppers : 2/3/2019 9:32 am : link
Obviously this is the time of year with plenty of talk and speculation but I've heard a few times now that many expect NYG will move Vernon. Similar to the way they moved JPP.
RE: RE: RE: ...  
Jay in Toronto : 2/3/2019 11:24 am : link
In comment 14284357 Hammer said:
Quote:
In comment 14284330 Deejboy said:


Quote:


In comment 14284321 christian said:


Quote:


Bad drafting doesn't require free agent mistakes. Bad drafting actually opened up UFA -- the Giants didn't re-sign a 1st round pick for ages.

Overpaying guys out of desperation is the problem.

Reese clearly missed on Vernon, who's a good player getting paid like a great player. Same could be said for Jenkins, and even Manning.

But Gettleman didn't even get near the hoop with Solder. He's an average player getting paid like a great player.


According to PFF, Solder's grade for last year was 74.1. That puts him right around the good category. He was awful in the first half and one of the best LT in football during the second half which shot his grade way up. Was he banged up early in the season? Was it adjusting to the different schemes? Was it covering for a rookie in Hernandez? Whatever the case he played way better in the second half. The major reason the Giants offense looked better in the second half was cause of Solder.

If Gettleman didn't sign Solder who exactly was going to play LT? Chad Wheeler? Ereck Flowers?



From my perspective Solder was better in the second half of the season because the interior line protection was better in the second half of the season.

Early in the year Manning was getting early pressure from the middle of the pocket and could not step up. This permitted Solder's guy to come around the edge and get to the quarterback.

After the Giants picked up the Guard from LA the middle held up much better in pass protection which permitted Manning to step up into the pocket and allowed Solder to route his guy around the edge.

Solder's better second half was a direct result of better interior line play during the same period.


Good point. I would still like an upgrade at RG and possibly C. Don't know about FA's, but I think we could improve with a mid-round G in the draft
...  
christian : 2/3/2019 11:28 am : link
EricJ - I assume that is the same type of logically flawed thinking that got the Giants in this mess.

- Why did LT have to be fixed ASAP when there were a number of holes on the team? Especially Right Tackle, where the incumbent who was so necessarily replaceable was penciled.
- Why could those resources not be allocated to investing in Center, Right Guard, or Right Tackle?
- If there was such a gun against Gettleman's head for Left Tackle, where does it end? Honestly, what's the number that was too high for Solder?
- The Giants easily could have done what Solder's former employer did -- be patient, wait out the draft, and make a move

In the end the Giants did what you describe -- they backed themselves into a corner believing left tackle needed to be fixed ASAP -- and wound up with a 31-year-old average player player with a 17M cap hit.

But they won 2 more games in 2018, so there's that.
RE: ...  
EricJ : 2/3/2019 12:18 pm : link
In comment 14285103 christian said:
Quote:

In the end the Giants did what you describe -- they backed themselves into a corner believing left tackle needed to be fixed ASAP -- and wound up with a 31-year-old average player player with a 17M cap hit.

But they won 2 more games in 2018, so there's that.


Christian... maybe a bit of amnesia? Do you remember what this place was like last year at this time and during the prior season? Seems like every thread was about Flowers and our left tackle issues.

I do not disagree with you that we had other holes to fill too. You also may be right in that we could have spent the money elsewhere.

Still, who would be protecting Eli's blind side this past season? I also think Solder played much better after Thanksgiving.

** There was an article recently where Whitworth indicated he wanted to come to the Giants but the offer was not strong enough. So, there is that too if true....
Signing Solder to that deal wasn't simply a bad move  
Jimmy Googs : 2/3/2019 12:23 pm : link
because of the way he played last season.

It was because it was an extreme signing for a team on the bubble...on the bubble of being bad versus just average.

It was an example of what not to do...
I believe there was some panicked, rushed thinking going on  
cosmicj : 2/3/2019 12:27 pm : link
In the Giants FO last off-season. Clearly, some mistakes were made, but itís fair to say that there were extenuating circumstances. But DG has had a year to assimilate information and the rubber is hitting the road now. What I think we have the right to expect are solid decisions taking a long view towards making the Giants a contender. (contender = real shot at winning a championship, not sneaking into a wild card spot.)

Among those options, I donít see how keeping Eli at anywhere near his cap number is a solid long-term decision. Iím waiting for that choice with a lot of curiosity.


The Vernon and Manning decisions are very similar.  
cosmicj : 2/3/2019 12:30 pm : link
Both are over paid vs their performance. I think you either cut both or you (mistakenly) keep both.
RE: RE: ...  
christian : 2/3/2019 12:57 pm : link
In comment 14285161 EricJ said:
Quote:
In comment 14285103 christian said:


Quote:



In the end the Giants did what you describe -- they backed themselves into a corner believing left tackle needed to be fixed ASAP -- and wound up with a 31-year-old average player player with a 17M cap hit.

But they won 2 more games in 2018, so there's that.



Christian... maybe a bit of amnesia? Do you remember what this place was like last year at this time and during the prior season? Seems like every thread was about Flowers and our left tackle issues.

I do not disagree with you that we had other holes to fill too. You also may be right in that we could have spent the money elsewhere.

Still, who would be protecting Eli's blind side this past season? I also think Solder played much better after Thanksgiving.

** There was an article recently where Whitworth indicated he wanted to come to the Giants but the offer was not strong enough. So, there is that too if true....


EricJ -- I think the general consensus is among those who disagreed with the signing is general management should be more wise than the fan base.

Sure, the fans were up in arms about Flowers and the tackle position. And I'm not saying LT wasn't an issue, it was.

But the point of the article is mainly the Giants spent top dollar on positions of need -- when the players available weren't top end players.

Lots of fans are clamoring for an upgrade in QB play -- but Gettleman shouldn't give Nick Foles record money just because he's the best QB free agent available.
Not even the draft experts  
Carl in CT : 2/3/2019 1:01 pm : link
But pre printed draft guides picked better than the Giants and we spent tons of money on this process.
RE: RE: RE: ...  
EricJ : 2/3/2019 2:11 pm : link
In comment 14285187 christian said:
Quote:

EricJ -- I think the general consensus is among those who disagreed with the signing is general management should be more wise than the fan base.

Sure, the fans were up in arms about Flowers and the tackle position. And I'm not saying LT wasn't an issue, it was.



I really did not see fans screaming that Solder sucks when we signed him. The negative comments were solely about the money. If we let the left tackle thing did not get resolved after the Flowers debacle, the fans would have screamed at DG. That is MY point.
Win-now narrative....  
anon837 : 2/3/2019 2:29 pm : link
was complete rubbish. You can't jettison 2/3 of your roster and think you will hit the ground running in Week 1. This team with an aging, cement-shoed QB with declining skills, 5 new starters on the OL (if you include Flowers moving to RT), brand new HC with a brand new system, and question marks abound on the D, was in no position to compete this year. They were in rebuild mode but didn't want to admit it. They needed to purge the stench of the previous regime first, THEN build properly. If it means 2 to 3 lean seasons, then so be it. But when you build a house on quick-sand, you get what happened this past season. The quick fix was never going to work and it won't work next year. They need another stellar draft to stop the bleeding and catch up with the rest of the league.
RE: RE: I enjoy reading the New England/BB posts  
anon837 : 2/3/2019 2:30 pm : link
In comment 14284410 K-Gun? Pop-Gun said:
Quote:
In comment 14284404 UConn4523 said:


Quote:


you guys are quite funny. Iím still trying to figure out why everyone else hasnít caught up yet. Dallasí OLine came with a massive investment, so why is Belichicks good without having to spend?

The answer is itís a fucking anomaly. A perfect storm of HC/QB/Orangizational buy in and structure. But hey, itís so simple to copy.



Dante Scarnecchia
+ 100000
RE: RE: RE: RE: ...  
Jimmy Googs : 2/3/2019 2:51 pm : link
In comment 14285235 EricJ said:
Quote:
In comment 14285187 christian said:


Quote:



EricJ -- I think the general consensus is among those who disagreed with the signing is general management should be more wise than the fan base.

Sure, the fans were up in arms about Flowers and the tackle position. And I'm not saying LT wasn't an issue, it was.





I really did not see fans screaming that Solder sucks when we signed him. The negative comments were solely about the money. If we let the left tackle thing did not get resolved after the Flowers debacle, the fans would have screamed at DG. That is MY point.


You can look for yourself. A few guys in this thread point out silliness of creating the highest paid players out of positional desperation.

https://corner.bigblueinteractive.com/index.php?mode=2&thread=565946
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: ...  
EricJ : 2/3/2019 3:06 pm : link
In comment 14285254 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:


I really did not see fans screaming that Solder sucks when we signed him. The negative comments were solely about the money. If we let the left tackle thing did not get resolved after the Flowers debacle, the fans would have screamed at DG. That is MY point.



You can look for yourself. A few guys in this thread point out silliness of creating the highest paid players out of positional desperation.

https://corner.bigblueinteractive.com/index.php?mode=2&thread=565946


I took a look at that thread and it further proves my point. There was nobody there who thought Solder was going to play poorly. In fact, there were more people who said they thought he had the chance to improve with age. The only discussion was about whether his contract was worth it. In fact, you see others saying what I said earlier here.

Your arguing a different point. Its not about him playing poorly  
Jimmy Googs : 2/3/2019 3:18 pm : link
its about allocating resources at a pinnacle level for players that haven't, nor will ever, reach that pinnacle. Giants have many holes and those cap dollars need to go funnel, fill and be used to develop the future. Not by making splashes when this team has no hope of smelling the layoffs.

Free Agency by its nature means overpaying...but it should not mean creating the highest paid player at position where he doesn't reside simply because we are so desperate at LT. And then we double down on stupid by moving our problem child over to Right Tackle and it took him about 2 plays in game 1 vs Jacksonville for everybody to realize.

Cannot keep making mistakes that hinder the successful restructuring of this franchise.

And the signing of Solder was a whopper...
RE: RE: RE: We are still talking about Solder??  
Ten Ton Hammer : 2/3/2019 4:25 pm : link
In comment 14284999 EricJ said:
Quote:
In comment 14284814 Ten Ton Hammer said:


Quote:



Why do you keep asking for fans to come up with an alternative to solder? That's not a legitimate argument. Fans aren't supposed to know the entirely of available talent in the NFL. That's the front office's job.




It is simple... fans have no problem saying they would not have made a particular move but then offer no alternative. If you do not know what other talent was available, then I am not sure how you can say it was a bad move.

It was my contention that there truly was no other realistic alternative available. Here are some facts which may help...

1. We had a shit show on the OL especially LT with Flowers.
2. Fans have been saying that we were ignoring the OL for years.
3. DG comes in and sees that he has to do something about left tackle
4. Solder was not a superstar the prior year by any means, but he was getting the job done.
5. There were no other LTs available who our personnel guys thought were a better option. (this is where your comment about fans no knowing comes in).
6. If we did not sign anyone, then fans would have crucified DG just as much for once again ignoring the OL problem. You know this would have happened.
7. Solder's play dropped off significantly from the prior year with the Pats. Many here thought we paid Solder too much but that was a cap discussion. NOBODY here thought Solder was going to play this poorly during the first half of the season... nobody.
8. The poor drafting and free agent signings from the prior GM basically made this choice inevitable. Reese left DG with little choice here but to sign Solder.


You're using a broad brush here. Fans who have been saying the giants have 'ignored' the OL for years continue to show their lack of understanding or bad memory over the draft resource they threw into the position for years.

They drafted guys high, premium picks. And have shelled out big money for free agent centers and guards.

None of them worked out. That's not 'ignoring'. That's players not working out. Just like Omameh didn't work out. Fans choose to remember it as the team ignoring the problem, which is flatly false.

The answer isn't "they shouldn't have signed anyone". They wanted Norwell. When Norwell wouldn't take their money, they spun around and gave that money to Solder. LT wasn't even their priority.
...  
christian : 2/3/2019 4:50 pm : link
No one railed against Solder sucking because Solder doesn't, hasn't, and wasn't expected to suck.

I'm not sure what the argument is on that point.

The only point the article makes and the only argument I'm making is Solder is overpaid, as are a number of other players, and that's handicapping the team.

Six palyers represent nearly 60 of the cap if my math is right. And only one of those players is arguably a really good player.

When Reese made those mistakes, it was bad management. Gettleman made the same variety of mistake.
One of the many lessons that can be gathered from the Patriots  
Go Terps : 2/3/2019 5:00 pm : link
Spread the cap hits over the roster and don't get wrapped up in long term contracts. They are as close to a true year to year operation as it's possible to have in the NFL.
RE: ...  
EricJ : 2/3/2019 10:45 pm : link
In comment 14285364 christian said:
Quote:


I'm not sure what the argument is on that point.

The only point the article makes and the only argument I'm making is Solder is overpaid, as are a number of other players, and that's handicapping the team.


My original point in this thread had nothing to do with the article. It was simply that when DG signed Solder in the off season, the only concerns here in the forum were over the contract. Then, people here were second guessing DG because Solder was not playing well. Like DG, those people here never thought Solder was going to perform as poorly either.

RE: RE: ...  
christian : 2/3/2019 10:59 pm : link
In comment 14286161 EricJ said:
Quote:
In comment 14285364 christian said:


Quote:




I'm not sure what the argument is on that point.

The only point the article makes and the only argument I'm making is Solder is overpaid, as are a number of other players, and that's handicapping the team.



My original point in this thread had nothing to do with the article. It was simply that when DG signed Solder in the off season, the only concerns here in the forum were over the contract. Then, people here were second guessing DG because Solder was not playing well. Like DG, those people here never thought Solder was going to perform as poorly either.


So a number of people thought it was a shitty contract, and as an added bonus he surprised with shitty play for much of the year?

I'm not sure how this supports why this was a good acquisition.
RE: RE: RE: ...  
EricJ : 2/4/2019 7:52 am : link
In comment 14286193 christian said:
Quote:

I'm not sure how this supports why this was a good acquisition.


It doesn't support why it was a good acquisition. I am saying that other than the contract issue, nobody had a problem with signing Solder. Now that he under performed, DG is taking heat for the performance on the field as well AND he is being accused of making "bad moves" and the only one people want to point to is Solder.

This really did not need to be so difficult to understand.
Other than the contract issue?  
Jimmy Googs : 2/4/2019 8:05 am : link
It was a bad move when it happened, it was a bad move when he played poorly and it was a bad move when he played better.

And if you think Solder is the only bad DG free agent move this past year, you haven't been watching...


"Other than what happened, how did you like the play Mrs. Lincoln?"
Solder & Some Thoughts  
Rong5611 : 2/4/2019 10:44 am : link
Guys, the line was so bad that they needed to stabilize it by getting a professional LT and get rid of Flowers, who is/was a joke. They had no choice. It was a shit show, plain & simple. LT is a premium position, I don't mind paying Solder for now.

The line improved over the course of the year. Hernandez has alot of upside. Brown was ok, they should bring him back for a reasonable deal. We need a good center (they will draft one, count on it) and a RT (FA?). OL is an investment in Barkley. He would have been even better behind a real OL. They are getting closer, but they aren't done building it yet.

QB - If its not Eli, who is it? They would still have to pay $10-15 million for another veteran caretaker to come in. Eli needs to play ball and give back some $$'s to the franchise that has helped him earn hundreds of millions of dollars in riches. He needs players if he wants a chance to ride out to retirement on a white horse with a playoff berth before he goes (which is likely a long shot).

Assuming Haskins is the real deal and we take him at #6, he's likely going to need some time to develop. They may even pass on a QB this year to get to what's considered a good QB class next year. Give Eli some time to throw, he will do ok as a transitional guy until we can find a new franchise QB. Not preferable, but that's where we are. I don't think they'll take a QB at 6, just a hunch. Perhaps they trade up to get one late in Rd1 or Rd2 to get one. Likely won't, they have too many holes in the roster.

Vernon - He had 7.5 sacks in half a season, not horrible. If they think a high RD1 pick and Carter can hold down the spot, boot him. Tough call on this one, but he's probably gone. They can't afford him and need to let the young players develop (assuming they draft some DL's).

Jenkins - Until we find a bonafide #1 CB, we should not move on from him. We have a decent stable of young CB's. One more year for JJ??

Collins - Transition tag noted in the article makes sense, less money than a franchise tag. That's telling, they don't want to invest in the more expensive tag. That said, he's our only consistent safety, but he cannot play the pass as well as we would like. He's probably back for the $8 million, which is ok. If he leaves, we'll need to get a safety somewhere.

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