I know what the rebuttal will be, this is what happens when you have a decade of bad drafting. However, money spent in FA has added to the problem. This team is way too too heavy & it will take time to fix. From a cap perspective, its amazing how much more efficient the money was spent in 2011.
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Overpaying guys out of desperation is the problem.
Reese clearly missed on Vernon, who's a good player getting paid like a great player. Same could be said for Jenkins, and even Manning.
But Gettleman didn't even get near the hoop with Solder. He's an average player getting paid like a great player.
which stems from a decade of bad drafting. Problem was (is?) the same guys who created the problem in the war room were trying to fix it during FA. What a mess
Overpaying guys out of desperation is the problem.
Reese clearly missed on Vernon, who's a good player getting paid like a great player. Same could be said for Jenkins, and even Manning.
But Gettleman didn't even get near the hoop with Solder. He's an average player getting paid like a great player.
According to PFF, Solder's grade for last year was 74.1. That puts him right around the good category. He was awful in the first half and one of the best LT in football during the second half which shot his grade way up. Was he banged up early in the season? Was it adjusting to the different schemes? Was it covering for a rookie in Hernandez? Whatever the case he played way better in the second half. The major reason the Giants offense looked better in the second half was cause of Solder.
If Gettleman didn't sign Solder who exactly was going to play LT? Chad Wheeler? Ereck Flowers?
Problem was very few of the players added in the draft or FA were actually contributing toward a true rebuild, never mind the lack of intelligence in the FO to understand that the rebuild was not being accomplished.
But, you can't ignore the importance of good drafting. it is a vital
Since the evaluation of the position players was bad, there's no reason to presume BPA evaluation would have been any better.
The Giants are in a very bad place. I dont have a ton of confidence in Gettleman but boy has he been dealt a bad hand.
Gettleman did veey good in his first year with the draft. He got rid of some players for cap relief. He also signed players to 1 year deals or deals that they can easily be cut this year without much of a cap impact.
We all knew when he came on that this team was in disarray due to years of bad drafts and free agent signings under Reese, so this is no surprise.
If Gettleman didn't sign Solder who exactly was going to play LT? Chad Wheeler? Ereck Flowers?
Deej -- that's the exact logic that gets a team in this mess.
In a game of least bad options, wildly overpaying a 30-year-old average-to-good player like a great player is not the answer.
It's never the answer no matter how desperate you are.
Shit, a little more patience and the Giants could have landed Trent Brown.
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Bad drafting doesn't require free agent mistakes. Bad drafting actually opened up UFA -- the Giants didn't re-sign a 1st round pick for ages.
Overpaying guys out of desperation is the problem.
Reese clearly missed on Vernon, who's a good player getting paid like a great player. Same could be said for Jenkins, and even Manning.
But Gettleman didn't even get near the hoop with Solder. He's an average player getting paid like a great player.
According to PFF, Solder's grade for last year was 74.1. That puts him right around the good category. He was awful in the first half and one of the best LT in football during the second half which shot his grade way up. Was he banged up early in the season? Was it adjusting to the different schemes? Was it covering for a rookie in Hernandez? Whatever the case he played way better in the second half. The major reason the Giants offense looked better in the second half was cause of Solder.
If Gettleman didn't sign Solder who exactly was going to play LT? Chad Wheeler? Ereck Flowers?
From my perspective Solder was better in the second half of the season because the interior line protection was better in the second half of the season.
Early in the year Manning was getting early pressure from the middle of the pocket and could not step up. This permitted Solder's guy to come around the edge and get to the quarterback.
After the Giants picked up the Guard from LA the middle held up much better in pass protection which permitted Manning to step up into the pocket and allowed Solder to route his guy around the edge.
Solder's better second half was a direct result of better interior line play during the same period.
Good catch !
Solder's better second half was a direct result of better interior line play during the same period.
Solder definitely came on later in the year as the line developed continuity.
But wouldn't you expect that curve and adjustment from a middle-of-the-pack type tackle?
And again that is the problem. He's a mid-tier player getting paid top tier salary.
He's not a lockdown, individual player. There aren't many out there, and that's why you don't pay him like one.
christian : 11:09 am : link : reply
Bad drafting doesn't require free agent mistakes. Bad drafting actually opened up UFA -- the Giants didn't re-sign a 1st round pick for ages.
Overpaying guys out of desperation is the problem.
Solder? We overpaid out of desperation....the OL is STILL NOT FIXED! By the time it is Solder may be gone....BB had no problem finding Trent Brown.....DG found his guy for 20M more....
If Gettleman didn't sign Solder who exactly was going to play LT? Chad Wheeler? Ereck Flowers?
Not saying Flowers should have ever made the cut. But the signing of Solder was simply foolish. A team in decline with an aging QB (and no heir apparent) and we go break the bank on an average LT because the team is desperate.
You don't spend a bundle like that unless its the missing piece.
Its an example of what not to do...
That's the difference between good teams and bad teams. Good teams dont blunt force "fix" a weakness with a sledgehammer. Thats the easiest and sometimes laziest way to address an issue.
Belichick wasnt paying Solder that. Oh look, they're in the super bowl again, and OL isnt a problem for New England.
Good teams find value. Average teams throw money around.
That's the difference between good teams and bad teams. Good teams dont blunt force "fix" a weakness with a sledgehammer. Thats the easiest and sometimes laziest way to address an issue.
Belichick wasnt paying Solder that. Oh look, they're in the super bowl again, and OL isnt a problem for New England.
Good teams find value. Average teams throw money around.
Exactly. The Giants could have done literally what the Pats did and trade a midround pick for an average LT.
How the Giants and Pats handled their LT situation is a great example of how a great and fledgling team handle issues.
That's the difference between good teams and bad teams. Good teams dont blunt force "fix" a weakness with a sledgehammer. Thats the easiest and sometimes laziest way to address an issue.
Belichick wasnt paying Solder that. Oh look, they're in the super bowl again, and OL isnt a problem for New England.
Good teams find value. Average teams throw money around.
A team run by Belichick is an outlier, period. I put little credence into using them as an example for anything. Same with Lombardi..
A lot of teams can start by reading Gridiron Genius, but I doubt they do. Its all there, it isnt rocket science.
It matters when they can't afford to add the type of players they want.
It also matters when the roster is compromised of a number of throw away players on one year deals, who are being aksed to fill key roles.
"One of the most notable tidbits from the 29-year old was him telling that the Patriots and Giants both offered him somewhat equal money, according to The Athletic's Patricia Traina.
He was NEs number one FA priority.
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The guy isn't a damn wizard.
A lot of teams can start by reading Gridiron Genius, but I doubt they do. Its all there, it isnt rocket science.
That book is fantastic. But as a Giants fan it's depressing. We're bringing a butter knife to a gun fight.
"One of the most notable tidbits from the 29-year old was him telling that the Patriots and Giants both offered him somewhat equal money, according to The Athletic's Patricia Traina.
He was NEs number one FA priority.
That's a vague and incomplete assertion. Maybe the overall dollar figures were the same, but I strongly doubt the guarantees or the guarantees at signing were close.
If Nate Solder turned down roughly the same contract to leave a perennial championship contender for the 3-13 New York Giants, I deeply question his judgement.
The answer is its a fucking anomaly. A perfect storm of HC/QB/Orangizational buy in and structure. But hey, its so simple to copy.
The answer is its a fucking anomaly. A perfect storm of HC/QB/Orangizational buy in and structure. But hey, its so simple to copy.
There are clearly different ways to come build a good offensive line. The Patriots do it with great coaching, the Rams did it with steady acquisitions, the Cowboys invested at the top of the draft across many years, the Colts did it cluster drafting in a short period of time.
I'd be in favor of the Giants doing any of those approaches, but none of them include wildly overpaying for a 30-year-old middle tier tackle.
The answer is its a fucking anomaly. A perfect storm of HC/QB/Orangizational buy in and structure. But hey, its so simple to copy.
Dante Scarnecchia
Yeah... I don't particularly see this as being an inexorable symptom of bad drafting.
To the other point, BB is smarter than anyone else plus he has a great QB who has been willing to take less than market value plus he has some outstanding assistants plus he has a weak division so he can use the season to get ready for the playoff. Lots of reasons for his success
I don't think there is such a thing as a decade long problem in the NFL. Virtually if not literally nothing a team did a decade ago has any bearing on how they operate now.
The New York Giants have an acute here and now issue; 57% of their 2019 salary cap is allocated to 6 players, and arguably only one of them is top 10 in the NFL at his position.
Nate Solder is squarely a part of a big a problem the Giants have.
I totally get the Giants have made a series of historical bad decisions in the draft, coaching, FA etc., but I completely agree with the article.
The Giants have a top heavy salaried team, and that is keeping the Giants from buidling up talent in other areas.
Don't want to get in to the QB debate on this thread, but it always rankled me that when it came time to renegotiate Eli's contract (in 2012?), it seemed that there was no negotiation and the FO just lay down and took Condon's demand.
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Is bogus. New England offered Solder almost as much as we did.
"One of the most notable tidbits from the 29-year old was him telling that the Patriots and Giants both offered him somewhat equal money, according to The Athletic's Patricia Traina.
He was NEs number one FA priority.
That's a vague and incomplete assertion. Maybe the overall dollar figures were the same, but I strongly doubt the guarantees or the guarantees at signing were close.
If Nate Solder turned down roughly the same contract to leave a perennial championship contender for the 3-13 New York Giants, I deeply question his judgement.
Sure there were differences but overall the Pats offered him very near the same amount the Giants did.
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Unless theyre in a position where they cant afford to keep someone they want to keep which they arent.
It matters when they can't afford to add the type of players they want.
It also matters when the roster is compromised of a number of throw away players on one year deals, who are being aksed to fill key roles.
Your first point is the issue presented in this article. The Giants have paid for the players they wanted. The returns have sucked overall.
Your second point is a drafting/UDFA problem. This is what happens when you net 1-2 decent players a year for the better part of 10 years.
It all comes down to the draft. If the Giants keep having drafts like last year they will be fine.
Hernandez progressed as he did Soldier started to lay better
Wheeler was a disaster .So we had little choice but to fill
the spot with Flowers a total failure who I won't be shocked
if he is out of football soon .
We will have draft 2-3 players for the O-line and again go to
the free agency pool .LT's don't grow on trees
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In comment 14284382 WillVAB said:
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Unless theyre in a position where they cant afford to keep someone they want to keep which they arent.
It matters when they can't afford to add the type of players they want.
It also matters when the roster is compromised of a number of throw away players on one year deals, who are being aksed to fill key roles.
Your first point is the issue presented in this article. The Giants have paid for the players they wanted. The returns have sucked overall.
Your second point is a drafting/UDFA problem. This is what happens when you net 1-2 decent players a year for the better part of 10 years.
It all comes down to the draft. If the Giants keep having drafts like last year they will be fine.
The Giants have overallocated resources to the top in free agency and the return has been bad.
They also aren't going to have 4 top 70 picks regularly, like they did in the last draft.
They need to stop signing average players to prime contracts and continue to draft well.
Those are absolutely not mutually exclusive concepts.
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In comment 14284390 christian said:
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In comment 14284382 WillVAB said:
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Unless theyre in a position where they cant afford to keep someone they want to keep which they arent.
It matters when they can't afford to add the type of players they want.
It also matters when the roster is compromised of a number of throw away players on one year deals, who are being aksed to fill key roles.
Your first point is the issue presented in this article. The Giants have paid for the players they wanted. The returns have sucked overall.
Your second point is a drafting/UDFA problem. This is what happens when you net 1-2 decent players a year for the better part of 10 years.
It all comes down to the draft. If the Giants keep having drafts like last year they will be fine.
The Giants have overallocated resources to the top in free agency and the return has been bad.
They also aren't going to have 4 top 70 picks regularly, like they did in the last draft.
They need to stop signing average players to prime contracts and continue to draft well.
Those are absolutely not mutually exclusive concepts.
My point is the cap and overspending in FA arent the reasons the Giants have been bad as this article suggests.
Theyve been bad because their drafts have been terrible.
Those terrible drafts opened up money that Reese used on bad FA deals.
Looking specifically at the Giants in FA, the primary issue isnt the Vernon type deals (which I despise), but the multiple, terrible lower tiered deals. Casillas, Dwayne Harris, Brandon Marshall, Ellison, etc type deals add up to big money for next to nothing in return.
The same people would have killed DG for not signing Solder. The same people here offered no alternative to signing Solder even with the benefit of hindsight.
Cut Eli, let Collins go, let Jenkins go, let Vernon go.
Just take away the names to avoid any emotion and sentimentality, basically we:
Adios an immobile 38 year old, a safety who is a liability against the pass, an overpaid corner, and an oft-injured, unreliable pass rusher.
How hard was that?
Cut Eli,
Adios an immobile 38 year old,
How hard was that?
When you cut him, who is playing QB or the Giants?
We can have the most cap space of any team in the league if we just cut the entire roster. You can win the pre-season cap trophy.