I know what the rebuttal will be, “this is what happens when you have a decade of bad drafting.” However, money spent in FA has added to the problem. This team is way too too heavy & it will take time to fix. From a cap perspective, it’s amazing how much more efficient the money was spent in 2011.
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The same people would have killed DG for not signing Solder. The same people here offered no alternative to signing Solder even with the benefit of hindsight.
There were plenty of alternatives. The Giants easily could have done exactly what the Patriots ended up doing and trading for Trent Brown and his 2M cap hit.
But they "won" the Solder sweepstakes. Awesome?
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that can be done immediately.
Cut Eli,
Adios an immobile 38 year old,
How hard was that?
When you cut him, who is playing QB or the Giants?
We can have the most cap space of any team in the league if we just cut the entire roster. You can win the pre-season cap trophy.
Where are we going with Eli? 8-8...tops? Maybe, 9-7? Most likely 7 wins or <.
Do you want to play the short game? Or the longer game where we can start building for success and stop crossing our fingers or rubbing rabbits feet hoping for a good season. Let’s keep hoping the football gods grant us a third wish...
I’d do one of three things...Play a rookie QB. Play Lauletta. Or trade for Jeff Driskell, who played well filling in for the injured Dalton.
It’s time to use cap money to build a team that fits today’s game. Need to get younger and faster on D. And keep building an oline that has youth and depth. Or find someone who can do that effectively.
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that can be done immediately.
Cut Eli,
Adios an immobile 38 year old,
How hard was that?
When you cut him, who is playing QB or the Giants?
We can have the most cap space of any team in the league if we just cut the entire roster. You can win the pre-season cap trophy.
Actually, with the number of shit deals the Giants have they could literally cut the entire roster and not even sniff what the Colts have over the next 2 years in cap space.
The terrible general management over the last 3 years can't be understated.
The same people would have killed DG for not signing Solder. The same people here offered no alternative to signing Solder even with the benefit of hindsight.
Why do you keep asking for fans to come up with an alternative to solder? That's not a legitimate argument. Fans aren't supposed to know the entirely of available talent in the NFL. That's the front office's job.
When gettleman was in the front office years ago, the Giants used to do a good job of finding players that could contribute from other team's rosters.
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"If they didnt wildly overspend to fix this roster hole, what would they have done instead"?
That's the difference between good teams and bad teams. Good teams dont blunt force "fix" a weakness with a sledgehammer. Thats the easiest and sometimes laziest way to address an issue.
Belichick wasnt paying Solder that. Oh look, they're in the super bowl again, and OL isnt a problem for New England.
Good teams find value. Average teams throw money around.
A team run by Belichick is an outlier, period. I put little credence into using them as an example for anything. Same with Lombardi..
It's not black magic or alchemy. Belichick understands value. He pays an offensive line coach a lot of money because he makes their players better. Coaches don't count against the cap, so get the best ones possible and find the talent he can work with.
Sure, others do too and what's why we are where we are. Its not complicated.
Bringing him back at that price for another bite of the apple is a ludicrous business decision.
But those players have to perform.....
Did anyone perform up to their contract?
Eli left a lot of plays out there on the field this year....
OBj got his money and didn't have an OBj year, and once again missed playing time...
OV was MIA and showed he could play against backups, but still couldn't contain his end...
Solder played better at the end? Is that when we needed him?
Jenkins? How many big pass plays did this guy give up? He may be out best CB, but he is nothing like the 2016 Jenkins........
So is cutting everyone the answer? Of course not....you end up with dead cap and possibly paying more for the replacement....
Yes, the draft is a big problem, especially when you consider we don't even re-sign our own players.....and when we do, do we get what we paid for?
Where are the building blocks for this team? It is going to take awhile, and I don't think we have the people in charge to get this done as fast as possible....
Why do you keep asking for fans to come up with an alternative to solder? That's not a legitimate argument. Fans aren't supposed to know the entirely of available talent in the NFL. That's the front office's job.
It is simple... fans have no problem saying they would not have made a particular move but then offer no alternative. If you do not know what other talent was available, then I am not sure how you can say it was a bad move.
It was my contention that there truly was no other realistic alternative available. Here are some facts which may help...
1. We had a shit show on the OL especially LT with Flowers.
2. Fans have been saying that we were ignoring the OL for years.
3. DG comes in and sees that he has to do something about left tackle
4. Solder was not a superstar the prior year by any means, but he was getting the job done.
5. There were no other LTs available who our personnel guys thought were a better option. (this is where your comment about fans no knowing comes in).
6. If we did not sign anyone, then fans would have crucified DG just as much for once again ignoring the OL problem. You know this would have happened.
7. Solder's play dropped off significantly from the prior year with the Pats. Many here thought we paid Solder too much but that was a cap discussion. NOBODY here thought Solder was going to play this poorly during the first half of the season... nobody.
8. The poor drafting and free agent signings from the prior GM basically made this choice inevitable. Reese left DG with little choice here but to sign Solder.
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In comment 14284321 christian said:
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Bad drafting doesn't require free agent mistakes. Bad drafting actually opened up UFA -- the Giants didn't re-sign a 1st round pick for ages.
Overpaying guys out of desperation is the problem.
Reese clearly missed on Vernon, who's a good player getting paid like a great player. Same could be said for Jenkins, and even Manning.
But Gettleman didn't even get near the hoop with Solder. He's an average player getting paid like a great player.
According to PFF, Solder's grade for last year was 74.1. That puts him right around the good category. He was awful in the first half and one of the best LT in football during the second half which shot his grade way up. Was he banged up early in the season? Was it adjusting to the different schemes? Was it covering for a rookie in Hernandez? Whatever the case he played way better in the second half. The major reason the Giants offense looked better in the second half was cause of Solder.
If Gettleman didn't sign Solder who exactly was going to play LT? Chad Wheeler? Ereck Flowers?
From my perspective Solder was better in the second half of the season because the interior line protection was better in the second half of the season.
Early in the year Manning was getting early pressure from the middle of the pocket and could not step up. This permitted Solder's guy to come around the edge and get to the quarterback.
After the Giants picked up the Guard from LA the middle held up much better in pass protection which permitted Manning to step up into the pocket and allowed Solder to route his guy around the edge.
Solder's better second half was a direct result of better interior line play during the same period.
Good point. I would still like an upgrade at RG and possibly C. Don't know about FA's, but I think we could improve with a mid-round G in the draft
- Why did LT have to be fixed ASAP when there were a number of holes on the team? Especially Right Tackle, where the incumbent who was so necessarily replaceable was penciled.
- Why could those resources not be allocated to investing in Center, Right Guard, or Right Tackle?
- If there was such a gun against Gettleman's head for Left Tackle, where does it end? Honestly, what's the number that was too high for Solder?
- The Giants easily could have done what Solder's former employer did -- be patient, wait out the draft, and make a move
In the end the Giants did what you describe -- they backed themselves into a corner believing left tackle needed to be fixed ASAP -- and wound up with a 31-year-old average player player with a 17M cap hit.
But they won 2 more games in 2018, so there's that.
In the end the Giants did what you describe -- they backed themselves into a corner believing left tackle needed to be fixed ASAP -- and wound up with a 31-year-old average player player with a 17M cap hit.
But they won 2 more games in 2018, so there's that.
Christian... maybe a bit of amnesia? Do you remember what this place was like last year at this time and during the prior season? Seems like every thread was about Flowers and our left tackle issues.
I do not disagree with you that we had other holes to fill too. You also may be right in that we could have spent the money elsewhere.
Still, who would be protecting Eli's blind side this past season? I also think Solder played much better after Thanksgiving.
** There was an article recently where Whitworth indicated he wanted to come to the Giants but the offer was not strong enough. So, there is that too if true....
It was because it was an extreme signing for a team on the bubble...on the bubble of being bad versus just average.
It was an example of what not to do...
Among those options, I don’t see how keeping Eli at anywhere near his cap number is a solid long-term decision. I’m waiting for that choice with a lot of curiosity.
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In the end the Giants did what you describe -- they backed themselves into a corner believing left tackle needed to be fixed ASAP -- and wound up with a 31-year-old average player player with a 17M cap hit.
But they won 2 more games in 2018, so there's that.
Christian... maybe a bit of amnesia? Do you remember what this place was like last year at this time and during the prior season? Seems like every thread was about Flowers and our left tackle issues.
I do not disagree with you that we had other holes to fill too. You also may be right in that we could have spent the money elsewhere.
Still, who would be protecting Eli's blind side this past season? I also think Solder played much better after Thanksgiving.
** There was an article recently where Whitworth indicated he wanted to come to the Giants but the offer was not strong enough. So, there is that too if true....
EricJ -- I think the general consensus is among those who disagreed with the signing is general management should be more wise than the fan base.
Sure, the fans were up in arms about Flowers and the tackle position. And I'm not saying LT wasn't an issue, it was.
But the point of the article is mainly the Giants spent top dollar on positions of need -- when the players available weren't top end players.
Lots of fans are clamoring for an upgrade in QB play -- but Gettleman shouldn't give Nick Foles record money just because he's the best QB free agent available.
EricJ -- I think the general consensus is among those who disagreed with the signing is general management should be more wise than the fan base.
Sure, the fans were up in arms about Flowers and the tackle position. And I'm not saying LT wasn't an issue, it was.
I really did not see fans screaming that Solder sucks when we signed him. The negative comments were solely about the money. If we let the left tackle thing did not get resolved after the Flowers debacle, the fans would have screamed at DG. That is MY point.
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you guys are quite funny. I’m still trying to figure out why everyone else hasn’t caught up yet. Dallas’ OLine came with a massive investment, so why is Belichicks good without having to spend?
The answer is it’s a fucking anomaly. A perfect storm of HC/QB/Orangizational buy in and structure. But hey, it’s so simple to copy.
Dante Scarnecchia
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EricJ -- I think the general consensus is among those who disagreed with the signing is general management should be more wise than the fan base.
Sure, the fans were up in arms about Flowers and the tackle position. And I'm not saying LT wasn't an issue, it was.
I really did not see fans screaming that Solder sucks when we signed him. The negative comments were solely about the money. If we let the left tackle thing did not get resolved after the Flowers debacle, the fans would have screamed at DG. That is MY point.
You can look for yourself. A few guys in this thread point out silliness of creating the highest paid players out of positional desperation.
https://corner.bigblueinteractive.com/index.php?mode=2&thread=565946
I really did not see fans screaming that Solder sucks when we signed him. The negative comments were solely about the money. If we let the left tackle thing did not get resolved after the Flowers debacle, the fans would have screamed at DG. That is MY point.
You can look for yourself. A few guys in this thread point out silliness of creating the highest paid players out of positional desperation.
https://corner.bigblueinteractive.com/index.php?mode=2&thread=565946
I took a look at that thread and it further proves my point. There was nobody there who thought Solder was going to play poorly. In fact, there were more people who said they thought he had the chance to improve with age. The only discussion was about whether his contract was worth it. In fact, you see others saying what I said earlier here.
Free Agency by its nature means overpaying...but it should not mean creating the highest paid player at position where he doesn't reside simply because we are so desperate at LT. And then we double down on stupid by moving our problem child over to Right Tackle and it took him about 2 plays in game 1 vs Jacksonville for everybody to realize.
Cannot keep making mistakes that hinder the successful restructuring of this franchise.
And the signing of Solder was a whopper...
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Why do you keep asking for fans to come up with an alternative to solder? That's not a legitimate argument. Fans aren't supposed to know the entirely of available talent in the NFL. That's the front office's job.
It is simple... fans have no problem saying they would not have made a particular move but then offer no alternative. If you do not know what other talent was available, then I am not sure how you can say it was a bad move.
It was my contention that there truly was no other realistic alternative available. Here are some facts which may help...
1. We had a shit show on the OL especially LT with Flowers.
2. Fans have been saying that we were ignoring the OL for years.
3. DG comes in and sees that he has to do something about left tackle
4. Solder was not a superstar the prior year by any means, but he was getting the job done.
5. There were no other LTs available who our personnel guys thought were a better option. (this is where your comment about fans no knowing comes in).
6. If we did not sign anyone, then fans would have crucified DG just as much for once again ignoring the OL problem. You know this would have happened.
7. Solder's play dropped off significantly from the prior year with the Pats. Many here thought we paid Solder too much but that was a cap discussion. NOBODY here thought Solder was going to play this poorly during the first half of the season... nobody.
8. The poor drafting and free agent signings from the prior GM basically made this choice inevitable. Reese left DG with little choice here but to sign Solder.
You're using a broad brush here. Fans who have been saying the giants have 'ignored' the OL for years continue to show their lack of understanding or bad memory over the draft resource they threw into the position for years.
They drafted guys high, premium picks. And have shelled out big money for free agent centers and guards.
None of them worked out. That's not 'ignoring'. That's players not working out. Just like Omameh didn't work out. Fans choose to remember it as the team ignoring the problem, which is flatly false.
The answer isn't "they shouldn't have signed anyone". They wanted Norwell. When Norwell wouldn't take their money, they spun around and gave that money to Solder. LT wasn't even their priority.
I'm not sure what the argument is on that point.
The only point the article makes and the only argument I'm making is Solder is overpaid, as are a number of other players, and that's handicapping the team.
Six palyers represent nearly 60 of the cap if my math is right. And only one of those players is arguably a really good player.
When Reese made those mistakes, it was bad management. Gettleman made the same variety of mistake.
I'm not sure what the argument is on that point.
The only point the article makes and the only argument I'm making is Solder is overpaid, as are a number of other players, and that's handicapping the team.
My original point in this thread had nothing to do with the article. It was simply that when DG signed Solder in the off season, the only concerns here in the forum were over the contract. Then, people here were second guessing DG because Solder was not playing well. Like DG, those people here never thought Solder was going to perform as poorly either.
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I'm not sure what the argument is on that point.
The only point the article makes and the only argument I'm making is Solder is overpaid, as are a number of other players, and that's handicapping the team.
My original point in this thread had nothing to do with the article. It was simply that when DG signed Solder in the off season, the only concerns here in the forum were over the contract. Then, people here were second guessing DG because Solder was not playing well. Like DG, those people here never thought Solder was going to perform as poorly either.
So a number of people thought it was a shitty contract, and as an added bonus he surprised with shitty play for much of the year?
I'm not sure how this supports why this was a good acquisition.
I'm not sure how this supports why this was a good acquisition.
It doesn't support why it was a good acquisition. I am saying that other than the contract issue, nobody had a problem with signing Solder. Now that he under performed, DG is taking heat for the performance on the field as well AND he is being accused of making "bad moves" and the only one people want to point to is Solder.
This really did not need to be so difficult to understand.
And if you think Solder is the only bad DG free agent move this past year, you haven't been watching...
"Other than what happened, how did you like the play Mrs. Lincoln?"
The line improved over the course of the year. Hernandez has alot of upside. Brown was ok, they should bring him back for a reasonable deal. We need a good center (they will draft one, count on it) and a RT (FA?). OL is an investment in Barkley. He would have been even better behind a real OL. They are getting closer, but they aren't done building it yet.
QB - If its not Eli, who is it? They would still have to pay $10-15 million for another veteran caretaker to come in. Eli needs to play ball and give back some $$'s to the franchise that has helped him earn hundreds of millions of dollars in riches. He needs players if he wants a chance to ride out to retirement on a white horse with a playoff berth before he goes (which is likely a long shot).
Assuming Haskins is the real deal and we take him at #6, he's likely going to need some time to develop. They may even pass on a QB this year to get to what's considered a good QB class next year. Give Eli some time to throw, he will do ok as a transitional guy until we can find a new franchise QB. Not preferable, but that's where we are. I don't think they'll take a QB at 6, just a hunch. Perhaps they trade up to get one late in Rd1 or Rd2 to get one. Likely won't, they have too many holes in the roster.
Vernon - He had 7.5 sacks in half a season, not horrible. If they think a high RD1 pick and Carter can hold down the spot, boot him. Tough call on this one, but he's probably gone. They can't afford him and need to let the young players develop (assuming they draft some DL's).
Jenkins - Until we find a bonafide #1 CB, we should not move on from him. We have a decent stable of young CB's. One more year for JJ??
Collins - Transition tag noted in the article makes sense, less money than a franchise tag. That's telling, they don't want to invest in the more expensive tag. That said, he's our only consistent safety, but he cannot play the pass as well as we would like. He's probably back for the $8 million, which is ok. If he leaves, we'll need to get a safety somewhere.