NFT: Mets Chat

for years, bordering on decades. Even with the recent news, it still seems like any breaking ground isn't going to happen for 3-5 years best case scenario.

It's a shame because with the nice park nearby, and the stadium, the area could be a nice destination.

In comment 14286462 Metnut said:

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for years, bordering on decades. Even with the recent news, it still seems like any breaking ground isn't going to happen for 3-5 years best case scenario. It's a shame because with the nice park nearby, and the stadium, the area could be a nice destination.

Yup. The thread on NYFS where the new article was posted... is from 2013! lol

that the Islanders are going to have a state of the art arena and mixed use high-end development complete at Belmont before any sort of ground is broken at Willets Point. Would've been called crazy for suggesting such 10 years ago.

on the real money maker led to some real spending

Fan experience in the league than what the Mets offer pre and post game? Aside from McFadden's there is absolutely NOTHING to do around the area. You arent even allowed to be tailgating in the parking lot technically with all the open container tickets they give out.

It is truly pathetic.

When I think about what the Braves must earn on the rents in the Battery around Sun Trust Park, it's incredible. Maybe the Wilpons can pick up a few bucks from this Willets Point deal.

Also, in a Minor League System with 4 shortstops in their top 20, and a pretty good one in the Majors.....why did they feel the need to "throw in" Jared K and hang on to Gimenez.

In comment 14286608 Eric on Li said:

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Quote: 14. New York Mets 2018 rank: 21 The Mets would easily have had a top-10 system had they not traded away their top two prospects, Jarred Kelenic and Justin Dunn, as well as other valuable prospects such as Luis Santana, in a bid to make the 2019 team a contender -- a bid that might very well work if their starters are healthy enough, but that could just as easily lead to a fourth-place finish. Despite the trades, it's still no worse than an average system thanks to a lot of hits on draft picks beyond the first round and some successes in the international market over the past two years.

I WIN
I WIN
I WIN
The Mets would easily have had a top-10 system

If you think I was annoying with Plawecki, you aint seen nothing yet lol

all due respect but Law has always been WAY higher on the Mets system than the industry. BP pre trades had them unofficially in the 20s. BA chat recently said "bottom 3rd". When the rankings come out I promise you Law's ranking (while not right or wrong) will be WELL higher than anyone else (FG, BA, BP etc). Quote me.

his comment is silly. Mets top 10 prospects who are these examples of not-high picks? Using the NYFS list the top player they drafted on the list outside of the 1st round...SWR who has yet to actually do anything (not knocking the talent but he's not a hit or miss yet) and Tony Dibrell so....

In comment 14286644 DanMetroMan said:

Quote:

all due respect but Law has always been WAY higher on the Mets system than the industry. BP pre trades had them unofficially in the 20s. BA chat recently said "bottom 3rd". When the rankings come out I promise you Law's ranking (while not right or wrong) will be WELL higher than anyone else (FG, BA, BP etc). Quote me.

GO AWAY, stop pissing on my parade lol

In comment 14286652 DanMetroMan said:

Quote:

his comment is silly. Mets top 10 prospects who are these examples of not-high picks? Using the NYFS list the top player they drafted on the list outside of the 1st round...SWR who has yet to actually do anything (not knocking the talent but he's not a hit or miss yet) and Tony Dibrell so....

I agree his comment is odd, but he specifies non first rounders and int'l hits. But their top prospects are full of second rounders and bigger IFA signings. Technically he's right, but it isnt a list littered with 14th rounders like it implies.

had the Mets 17th before any of the trades for example-
Link - ( New Window )

In comment 14286664 Shecky said:

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In comment 14286652 DanMetroMan said: Quote: his comment is silly. Mets top 10 prospects who are these examples of not-high picks? Using the NYFS list the top player they drafted on the list outside of the 1st round...SWR who has yet to actually do anything (not knocking the talent but he's not a hit or miss yet) and Tony Dibrell so.... I agree his comment is odd, but he specifies non first rounders and int'l hits. But their top prospects are full of second rounders and bigger IFA signings. Technically he's right, but it isnt a list littered with 14th rounders like it implies.

Well that's what I mean. I mean credit for signing someone like Gimenez but they aren't exactly finding mid-round hidden gems. On paper their best guys are big IFA signings and high picks (like most teams).

In comment 14286665 DanMetroMan said:

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had the Mets 17th before any of the trades for example- Link - ( New Window )

I am NOT getting off your lawn
And there is nothing you can do about it

In comment 14286565 gmen9892 said:

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Fan experience in the league than what the Mets offer pre and post game? Aside from McFadden's there is absolutely NOTHING to do around the area. You arent even allowed to be tailgating in the parking lot technically with all the open container tickets they give out. It is truly pathetic.

Mikeller is the best stadium bar I've ever gone to anywhere. World class beer right in the stadium. Check it out.

If I get to a game too early and don't feel like drinking, walking around Flushing Meadows/Corona park for an hour or two is something I've always enjoyed when the weather isn't bad.

and extremely stubborn, but he's still a guy who puts a ton of work into evaluating prospects and it's hard for me to say his opinions/rankings are less worthy than others.

The best approach to seeing how our system stands is probably to average Law's ranking with the other ones that come out.

but that's not exactly accurate to the "later picks" description. If you were mainly focusing on the top end of every system and Kay + Peterson are the only "first round picks" in the top 10, and on top of that all of the guys in his top 100 fit the description of intl FA or non-first rd picks that would seem somewhat supportive of his point. Though the language is still a little misleading.

No question our 2nd round picks (Alonso/Vientos/SWR in particular) and intl FA signings were where the previous regimes track record was strongest.

In comment 14286685 Metnut said:

Quote:

and extremely stubborn, but he's still a guy who puts a ton of work into evaluating prospects and it's hard for me to say his opinions/rankings are less worthy than others. The best approach to seeing how our system stands is probably to average Law's ranking with the other ones that come out.

Well this is what I'm saying. I would bet anything he's significantly higher than what the average is going to be. FG's list had them 17th before the off-season trades, so they pretty clearly are going to have them no higher than low 20's (if not worse) and Jeff P said BP doesn't have their rankings yet but "easily bottom 3rd". Willing to make a gentleman's bet that BA + BP + FG + mlbpipeline's average will have the Mets in the early 20's.

McNeil .274/.329/.426 2.8 fWAR

Cano 2.5 fWAR

Broxton absolute garbage, same with Lagares

Alonso 2.2 fWAR in only 122 games played

and the number is less important. Law has them a little higher, others probably a little lower - none of the actual number rankings all that meaningful.

Prior to the trades I think they had a strong system, probably close to top 10, now I think they are back to where they were to start last year. The trades they made stunted the progress of a strong draft and almost everyone important having a good year last year - Vientos, Gimenez, Alonso, etc. So the outlook was trending up. Injury to Kilome and trading 20% of our top 20 has knocked it back down to middle of the pack.

The amount of top end IF talent is as good as just about any other team in baseball though, especially at SS. OF pool may be worst in baseball. Pitching pool is probably very middle of the pack depending on how all the TJS guys come back this year.

had them 19th at the end of August aka pre-trades so they almost certainly will have them botton 6-7 in baseball FWW.

is unbelievably bad which seems hard to pull off since you draft so many each season.

In comment 14286697 DanMetroMan said:

Quote:

In comment 14286685 Metnut said: Quote: and extremely stubborn, but he's still a guy who puts a ton of work into evaluating prospects and it's hard for me to say his opinions/rankings are less worthy than others. The best approach to seeing how our system stands is probably to average Law's ranking with the other ones that come out. Well this is what I'm saying. I would bet anything he's significantly higher than what the average is going to be. FG's list had them 17th before the off-season trades, so they pretty clearly are going to have them no higher than low 20's (if not worse) and Jeff P said BP doesn't have their rankings yet but "easily bottom 3rd". Willing to make a gentleman's bet that BA + BP + FG + mlbpipeline's average will have the Mets in the early 20's.

Yea, I don't think that'll surprise any of us who follow the system and the trades made this offseason. But, I don't think it's unreasonable to add Law's average in there. Maybe it gets us to the teens, but more likely low 20s.

Big picture wise, it really doesn't matter a ton to me whether we have the 19th or 25th best farm system. It's not really that good of a system, and there's only a few guys I'm excited about.

Aside from the 2019 season which is most important, I'm more interested to see how the new front office hires are able to build the whole organization out. Whether we're starting from 19-25th, it's far more important whether in 3 years from now we see a new approach to drafting/international talent etc., that is improved from the Alderson regime. The analytic hires last week have me pretty optimistic in that regard.

But yea Dan, I get your concern and will be frustrated if people are just say stuff like "Mets have an above average farm system" just because of the Law ranking.

I don't think you will see too many changes in the way they are drafting, for the time being. Nor should they, to be honest.
Im hopeful they will be more aggressive with the relationships in IFA, but that takes years to redevelop.

I think the biggest change you will see quickly is the 'under the radar' moves that have sorely been missing for a long time. You've already started to see it with ML invites. But I definitely think you will see a LOT more focus on the smaller moves. Which is why you go out in full force for acquiring the high end guys first...

and Lugo are definitely rotation options.

Make sense. I'd really like to add another arm or two before the season anyway. Would make me feel comfortable enough to go to war and shift out of offseason mode into LETS GO METS mode.

In comment 14286792 Shecky said:

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I don't think you will see too many changes in the way they are drafting, for the time being. Nor should they, to be honest. Im hopeful they will be more aggressive with the relationships in IFA, but that takes years to redevelop. I think the biggest change you will see quickly is the 'under the radar' moves that have sorely been missing for a long time. You've already started to see it with ML invites. But I definitely think you will see a LOT more focus on the smaller moves. Which is why you go out in full force for acquiring the high end guys first...

Appreciate the thoughts. Caster a wider net and looking at more talent/opportunities can only be a good thing.

to Oakland, minor league deal.

Matt Ehalt
✔
@MattEhalt
Brodie on Mets rotation depth; �Hector Santiago is an All-Star at the major-league level. .. We think (Lockett)s a real major league candidate. We wouldn�t have taken Kyle Dowdy in the Rule 5 Draft if we didn�t think there was upside and we know Lugo/ Gsellman have been SP...."

Nice to hear. The organization can say Lugo and Gsellman are BP only until they are blue in the face but obviously when injuries happen, shit changes.

In comment 14286985 DanMetroMan said:

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to Oakland, minor league deal.

I'd have brought him back and hoped last year was just an aberration from overuse.

If they're serious about Lugo/Gsellman possibly being options in the rotation, I don't know why they wouldn't have rolled the dice on Brach or Kelley. That would have been a perfectly acceptable alternative to hedge against Vargas without needing to spend 2 years of guaranteed money.

Santiago quote is comical (even if factual). He made the all-star team in 2015 going 9-9 with a 4.77 FIP. Since that time 97 appearances 5.39 FIP.

For context Santiago's "all-star" FIP was the 3rd worst mark among ALL qualified SP in 2015 (only Harang and de la rosa) were worse https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=pit&lg=all&qual=y&type=8&season=2015&month=0&season1=2015&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&sort=17,d #Mets

it's kind of comical for them to act like those guys are anything other than fodder. It's more likely than not neither is a major leaguer. I can maybe buy Lockett as a guy they targeted to kind of be a Dillon Gee type, but again the likelihood is against that.

quantity doesn't = quality. Just ask the 10 relievers they acquired a couple years ago.

Santiago went to the all star game that year off his first half... He crashed and burned at the end....

2.82 FIP, 2.33 ERA, 108.1 innings. It was a worthy selection at the time.

for All Star Vargas??

surely 3 all stars are better than 2.

Ill feel absolutely fine about our depth. Especially, if Lugo and Gsellman are still being floated as options. Cant get much better than that IMO. Guys like Santiago on minor league deals is exactly what you want to bring in for 7/8/9th options.

In comment 14287046 Eric on Li said:

Quote:

it's kind of comical for them to act like those guys are anything other than fodder. It's more likely than not neither is a major leaguer. I can maybe buy Lockett as a guy they targeted to kind of be a Dillon Gee type, but again the likelihood is against that. quantity doesn't = quality. Just ask the 10 relievers they acquired a couple years ago.

Dowdy touches 98 mph. I dont think he's anything like Gilmartin.

In comment 14287054 Shecky said:

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for All Star Vargas??

Give us the goods. lol. Gio still in play?

In comment 14287065 ZGiants98 said:

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Dowdy touches 98 mph. I dont think he's anything like Gilmartin.

I didn't mean they were alike in terms of style, they are alike in that they were both rule v picks and most rule v picks don't amount to anything. If I was going to guess Gilmartin probably did more than most rule v guys do. I think most go the way of Brad Emus.

We had some success taking Gilmartin and Beato. From our side Bowman, O'Day, etc. stuck and huge successes with other teams..

I dont think its a big of a crap shoot as you make out. Selecting a Rule V guy means you are taking somebody that has to make the 25 man roster over what you have, so there likely is some extensive scouting, homework done before you go into something like that.

In comment 14287052 ZGiants98 said:

Quote:

Santiago went to the all star game that year off his first half... He crashed and burned at the end.... 2.82 FIP, 2.33 ERA, 108.1 innings. It was a worthy selection at the time.

For sure but that would look even WORSE. "2015 he had a great 1st half and has stunk since then". It's 2019. He's pitched 3.5 seasons since that time and been really bad. He's fine on a minor league deal but to act like he's even been good for an entire season isn't even true let alone "he's an all-star". A reason why an "all-star" is taking a minor league deal in January... lol

.

In comment 14287059 ZGiants98 said:

Quote:

Ill feel absolutely fine about our depth. Especially, if Lugo and Gsellman are still being floated as options. Cant get much better than that IMO. Guys like Santiago on minor league deals is exactly what you want to bring in for 7/8/9th options.

Would LOVE to add either. Given the lack of high-end AAA prospects that we can hope for a breakout from, I think a guy like Gio for Bucholz would provide more marginal value per $$ to the Mets than other teams.

as the long man and it likely does spell the end for Dowdy or Avilan in the pen. His fastball tops out around 84 mph, so timing/rhythm is likely a pretty big deal for Jason. Its one of the reasons I think he got so screwed up over his first few starts last year.

But... The main reason for bringing in Gio or another SP is to create depth and for that, it would be worth it in my mind.

with their love of overstatement. In 2012 Gio even got MVP votes!!!!!

If you have questions about financial information made available to the public and the assumptions used in this series, please refer to the Phillies piece linked above.

Today, we look into a club that has surprised the baseball world move after move this winter: the New York Mets.

Team Leadership

Despite having been around for 57 seasons, the Mets have really had only three owners. They were founded as an expansion franchise in 1962 by Joan Payson with her widower running the show for five years after her death before he sold the club to publisher Nelson Doubleday�s company in 1980. Doubleday individually grabbed the club along with Fred Wilpon in 1986 and Wilpon, along with his business partners, bought out Doubleday in August 2002 with the Wilpon ownership group assuming full control. To say that Wilpon ownership got off to a bad start is quite an understatement as the team made just one trip to the playoffs from 2003-14, memorably falling to St. Louis in a seven-game NLCS in 2006 before a pair of heartbreakingly close playoff misses in 2007 and 2008. The club was rejuvenated, fueled by elite young pitching, in 2015, reaching the World Series and following that up with another playoff trip in 2016, albeit just a Wild Card Game loss.

Following an eight-year run during which Sandy Alderson rebuilt the club into a true contender, Wilpon went outside the box � way outside the box � and hired former Creative Artists Agency player agent Brodie Van Wagenen to be the new general manager in October 2018. Although his hiring was initially met with some skepticism and questions about possible conflicts of interest, Van Wagenen has set the baseball world on fire with a series of marquee moves, as we�ll discuss below.

Historical Payrolls

Before hitting the numbers, please recall that we use data from Cot�s Baseball Contracts, we�ll use average annual value (�AAV�) on historical deals but actual cash for 2019 and beyond, and deferrals will be reflected where appropriate. And, of course, the value of examining historical payrolls is twofold: they show us either what type of payroll a team�s market can support or how significantly a given ownership group is willing to spend. In the most useful cases, they show us both. We�ll focus on a 15-year span for the Mets, covering 2005-18 for historical data as a means to understanding year 15: 2019. This period covers nearly the entirety of Wilpon�s sole ownership, so this provides an excellent window into what to expect from the club. We�ll also use Opening Day payrolls as those better approximate expected spending by ownership.



Wilpon kept spending largely consistent during the early days of his sole ownership, but payroll jumped in a big way to fuel the successful teams of the late 2000s. As that roster aged and faded, the payroll dipped substantially, including a massive one-year drop of nearly $50 million before the 2012 season. Payroll largely stagnated until a return to significant spending in the 2016 season as the Mets attempted to return to the World Series, followed by another jump before the 2017 year.

The Mets paid a $1.1 million luxury tax bill for the 1999 season under the previous tax regime, but that was the only year in club history during which they�ve incurred the tax. They came in narrowly under the threshold in 2003 by less than $1 million, but they haven�t come particularly close to the tax line over the past 15 seasons. The club has regularly played in the international amateur space, though they�re not known for the type of boundary-pushing spending that teams like the Yankees, Red Sox, Dodgers, and Cubs have employed.

Future Liabilities

Mets spending in 2019 is set to take a new leap, setting a new franchise high by a solid margin. Unsurprisingly, a bevy of guaranteed deals lead the way.


Despite some huge numbers for Cespedes and Cano, the club is far from hamstrung by its current deals as there is very little money committed beyond the 2020 season.

Speaking of Cespedes, he provides unquestioned offensive firepower�when he�s on the field. Since being acquired by the Mets at the 2015 trade deadline, signing a new deal with the club before the 2016 season, opting out, and securing a long-term deal covering the 2017-20 years, Cespedes has blasted his way to a powerful .282/.346/.543 batting line. However, Cespedes has seen his games played dwindle each year, tumbling from 159 in 2015 to 132 in 2016, 81 in 2017, and finally just 38 last season. The front office has given repeated indications that any contribution from Cespedes in 2019 will be gravy given his lengthy recovery timeline following heel surgery.

While Cespedes has struggled to stay on the field, new Met Cano has been a picture of consistency, playing at least 156 games each year from 2007-16 before dipping all the way to 150 games in 2017. However, Cano was slapped with an 80-game suspension last year after a test revealed the presence of a diuretic in his system before undergoing arthroscopic knee surgery in December. It�s likely Van Wagenen�s tenure will be defined in large part by how Cano performs in his new (old) city. Regardless, from a purely financial standpoint, Cano represents a fairly safe risk: whenever he plays, he has been remarkably productive and if he fails another drug test, Cano will be suspended for an entire season without pay. It�s also worth noting that the Mariners are subsidizing Cano�s deal both by sending cash to the Mets annually and by absorbing the remaining amounts due to Jay Bruce and Anthony Swarzak. It should be noted that the most sought-after player in the Cano deal was reliever Edwin Diaz, who fell 13 days short of Super Two status for 2019 and will therefore earn just $570,800 in his first year with the Mets.

Among the guaranteed deals for current players, longtime Met Juan Lagares is the sole remaining holdover who spent a significant chunk of time under the Alderson regime. Lagares plays a mean center field and runs well, but his bat never developed, so it figures that the Mets will pay his 2020 salary and wish him well nine months from now.

The remaining players are all middle class veterans on short-term deals. Frazier and Vargas both enter their walk years while Van Wagenen filled out the remainder of his roster by throwing modest sums of cash at solid, unspectacular veterans. Lowrie enters off of a stellar year but turns 35 shortly after Opening Day. Ramos, Familia, and Wilson each enjoyed success in 2018 and prior years, though each comes with a recent red flag: a knee injury for Ramos, a domestic violence suspension for Familia, and a nightmarish loss of command in recent years for Wilson.

Finally, we get to the payments to ex-players, and holy smokes, what a walk down memory lane this is. Wright has two years remaining on his eight-year contract, though insurance figures to pay about 75 percent of his guaranteed money, after which the team owes him $3.1 million annually through 2025. Santana�s deferred money carries just two years into the future.

But Strawberry, Bonilla, and Saberhagen? They basically define the risk of long-term deferrals. The team will spend over $3 million on that trio through the 2020s while owing nearly $2.8 million to the Strawberry-Bonilla duo for additional years. It�s true that those dollar figures aren�t astronomical when considering team budgets, but $3 million represents an annual flier on someone like Shelby Miller or a modest bullpen upgrade like Shawn Kelley. Instead, the Mets will continue to spend that cash on players through their 60s. Yikes.

Turning to the arbitration ranks, the Mets feature their best talent:



deGrom and Syndergaard are arguably the team�s two best players. Wheeler finally recovered from a slew of injuries to realize his promise as a strong rotation cog, and Matz still carries plenty of promise to do the same. Conforto played at an All-Star level in 2017 before slipping to be a merely plus regular in 2018; he just turned 25. Only d�Arnaud figures to play a less than prominent role as his sterling 2015 becomes a thing of distant past more so than a predictor of future stardom. Nevertheless, the arbitration table carries much of the intrigue for the Mets in 2019 and beyond.

What Does Team Leadership Have to Say?

Wilpon didn�t offer much insight as to what team spending would look like early on in the offseason, stating only that �Brodie knows what the parameters of what the payroll is and what we�re planning to do.�

Accordingly, this pushes us toward Van Wagenen for insight on the team�s expected spending�which also yields no useful information. Back in November, the general manager stated that the club was �open for sure to moving money off the roster� but �willing to add money as well� before deferring more specific questions to ownership.

It seems that franchise leadership has no interest in making their spending plans public knowledge. For competitive advantage purposes, I can�t say I blame them.

Are the Mets a Player for Bryce Harper or Manny Machado?

Probably not. They haven�t been mentioned as one of the clubs seeking a sit-down opportunity with either mid-20s star and that speaks volumes, especially now that we�ve reached February.

Furthermore, following his expensive forays into the marketplace to acquire Cano and Familia, sources indicated that Van Wagenen would be focusing his efforts on an outfield bat, rotation depth, or a lefty reliever, not exactly an indication that Harper or Machado would be meeting with Mets brain trust in the near future.

Still, it can�t be ignored that Mets play in a major metropolitan area and feature a fan base that supported attendance totals regularly in excess of three million annually, even eclipsing four million fans in 2008. They exceeded 2.6 million fans only twice since then. If ownership and the business operations folks believe that a contending Mets team can draw at least 3.1 million fans like they did each year from 2006-09, that extra revenue could surely support another marquee addition, though doing so would push the team into taxpayer status depending on how Wright�s insurance coverage is factored. They currently have a tax payroll of approximately $186.5 million, meaning they can only afford a $20 million addition before exceeding the tax line.

For now, assume that the Mets are out on both players while holding a tiny glimmer of possibility in the back of your mind. While you hold onto that thought, consider this idle, baseless speculation: in addition to Wright�s, Cespedes� contract is insured as well, though the Mets were hazy on the specifics. If they truly think that he�ll be unable to play at all in 2019 and the policy covers roughly 75 percent of his salary after a disability period is reached, the club may recover something north of $10 million on the policy. The prospect of another big expenditure starts to look eminently more reasonable.

What Will the 2019 Payroll Be?

Well, it�ll be a new team record, that�s for sure. But just how high will it go?

Currently, team payroll comes in at $159.5 million including the substantial payments of deferred money. The luxury tax won�t be a factor unless the team adds $20 million or more to current payroll, so this number is a good approximation.

How much room is there for additional expenditures? It seems reasonable to assume that Van Wagenen took the job with the understanding that payroll would increase by some amount, even if that amount is more in the five-to-ten percent neighborhood than something more substantial. A ten percent increase fits the bill as the club seeks to contend in their final years of depressed-cost control over deGrom and Syndergaard. But don�t be stunned if the percentage increase is more like fifteen or twenty in the end. For now, we�ll estimate at the low number.

Projected 2019 Payroll: $165 million

Projected 2019 Payroll Space: $5.5 million

Thought it was a good writeup though.

Mike Puma
✔
@NYPost_Mets
Brodie Van Wagenen: "Hopefully the fans recognize we did make a big offseason splash. We just spread it around."

In comment 14287022 DanMetroMan said:

Quote:

Santiago quote is comical (even if factual). He made the all-star team in 2015 going 9-9 with a 4.77 FIP. Since that time 97 appearances 5.39 FIP. For context Santiago's "all-star" FIP was the 3rd worst mark among ALL qualified SP in 2015 (only Harang and de la rosa) were worse https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=pit&lg=all&qual=y&type=8&season=2015&month=0&season1=2015&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&sort=17,d #Mets

Not factual...

"is" vs "has been" are 2 very different things

BVW on Cespedes: �our expectation is that he can make progress everyday. We just want to make sure we aren�t taxing him too soon, and that he�s 100 percent healthy when he comes back, whenever that day is.�

Matt Ehalt
✔
@MattEhalt
Can Mets add a player on a majors deal? BVW: �I don�t think we have any restrictions about what we can or can�t do. I think it�s more about how we fit the guys on the roster that we have. We�re deep, we�ve got more than 25 guys that are capable or deserving to break camp."

In comment 14287136 ZGiants98 said:

Quote:

Mike Puma ✔ @NYPost_Mets Brodie Van Wagenen: "Hopefully the fans recognize we did make a big offseason splash. We just spread it around."

LOL

By definition you can not make a big splash by spreading things around. That makes a lot of little splashes.

In comment 14287142 ZGiants98 said:

Quote:

Matt Ehalt ✔ @MattEhalt Can Mets add a player on a majors deal? BVW: �I don�t think we have any restrictions about what we can or can�t do. I think it�s more about how we fit the guys on the roster that we have. We�re deep, we�ve got more than 25 guys that are capable or deserving to break camp."

Oh so we are back with this disingenuous bullshit??

I'm so sick and tired of it.

Matt Ehalt
✔
@MattEhalt
Brodie on rotation/Vargas: "There are very few fifth starters around the league that have his pedigree. He finished last year with a really great and strong finish. ...We feel good about Vargas. We think Lugo and Gsellman are both rotation options if we need to go to them."

However, I have an issue with the statement that the payments to Bonilla/Strwberry/Saberhagen prevents the team from taking a flyer on Shelby Miller, etc.

As noted, they have about 20 million to go before hitting the luxury tax, so there really is no reason not to spend up to the limit. I'm not suggesting to spend for spend's sake, but they should continue to try and upgrade

When asked again about Jason Vargas, Brodie said his �competitiveness� drove him to come back earlier than he should have from the come backer that hit him in spring training, but once he had his feet underneath him, we saw what Jason Vargas can �really be.�

In comment 14287148 ZGiants98 said:

Quote:

Matt Ehalt ✔ @MattEhalt Brodie on rotation/Vargas: "There are very few fifth starters around the league that have his pedigree. He finished last year with a really great and strong finish. ...We feel good about Vargas. We think Lugo and Gsellman are both rotation options if we need to go to them."

So I guess they will pass on Gio...

In comment 14287136 ZGiants98 said:

Quote:

Mike Puma ✔ @NYPost_Mets Brodie Van Wagenen: "Hopefully the fans recognize we did make a big offseason splash. We just spread it around."

What fans recognize right now is irrelevant. If they make the playoffs the fans will recognize. That's the only thing that matters this year.

In comment 14287156 speedywheels said:

Quote:

In comment 14287148 ZGiants98 said: Quote: Matt Ehalt ✔ @MattEhalt Brodie on rotation/Vargas: "There are very few fifth starters around the league that have his pedigree. He finished last year with a really great and strong finish. ...We feel good about Vargas. We think Lugo and Gsellman are both rotation options if we need to go to them." So I guess they will pass on Gio...

Yeah... sounds like it the way they are puffing up Vargas.

In comment 14287161 Eric on Li said:

Quote:

In comment 14287136 ZGiants98 said: Quote: Mike Puma ✔ @NYPost_Mets Brodie Van Wagenen: "Hopefully the fans recognize we did make a big offseason splash. We just spread it around." What fans recognize right now is irrelevant. If they make the playoffs the fans will recognize. That's the only thing that matters this year.

Agreed. The lineup is still going to be fairly young though so we do need guys to start realizing their potential simultaneously to what was added for this to happen and there's nothing you can really do there. I do think guys like Rosario, McNeil, and Alonso are going to play big parts in this team this year though.

Vargas then becomes #6. Huge upgrade over Flexen, Gagnon, Conlon etc

Mets must have been close to ten games under.500 in games started by backup starters. Plus those guys negatively impact subsequent games when they get knocked out in the third inning and force Mi key to burn the pen

Getting Gio would have a ripple effect and put Mets close to a 90 win team

@NYPost_Mets
Brodie: "Sports, in general, should be about putting the best product on the field and trying to compete every day. Certainly we do that here."

In comment 14287171 Vanzetti said:

Quote:

Vargas then becomes #6. Huge upgrade over Flexen, Gagnon, Conlon etc Mets must have been close to ten games under.500 in games started by backup starters. Plus those guys negatively impact subsequent games when they get knocked out in the third inning and force Mi key to burn the pen Getting Gio would have a ripple effect and put Mets close to a 90 win team

I agree. Almost all the projections and sports books have the mets between 84-88 wins and 2nd or 3rd in the division. Go all out on the pitching depth since it's there for the taking. Quite frankly there's nothing that indicates Gio wouldn't be an upgrade on Matz as well as Vargas. His 2017 season wasn't far off Wheeler too.

and he's going to get some ridiculous cheap deal we are all going to get pissed about. lol. Add Gio and Warren for around 10-11 million total?

deGrom, Wheeler, Syndergaard, Matz, Gio
Diaz, Familia, Lugo, Wilson, Gsellman, Warren, Vargas

After week 3:

Nimmo
Lowrie
Cano
Conforto
Ramos
McNeil
Alonso
Rosario

Lagares, Broxton, Frazier, JD Davis, TDA

That's a loaded ass team with huge potential for even more in the second half.

if there's any guy who can help slow down down the running game when Thor pitches especially it's him. According to statcast his throwing velocity was 3rd best in baseball last year (5 mph faster than Nido for comparison) and his pop time was also real good. Threw out 50% of runners. Probably wouldn't even cost more than just cutting TDA in camp.

in TDA in a lesser role or not. If they do, they arent going to sign Maldonado because they cant keep both on the roster. Do they believe TDA offers more upside? I think they could certainly make a case. Might not be the right choice but if you squint you can see the logic.

he's still rehabbing right now and I believe Shecky said he won't be on the od roster. Who knows how he will throw after TJS. If the money is similar i'd go healthy player over chronically injured player almost every time.

In comment 14287161 Eric on Li said:

Quote:

In comment 14287136 ZGiants98 said: Quote: Mike Puma ✔ @NYPost_Mets Brodie Van Wagenen: "Hopefully the fans recognize we did make a big offseason splash. We just spread it around." What fans recognize right now is irrelevant. If they make the playoffs the fans will recognize. That's the only thing that matters this year.

Exactly. Whether fans like the offseason or each individual move or not is completely not relevant. It's the results that matter. Two winnings seasons in 9 years isn't acceptable. Time to kick some ass this year and bring a consistent winner to Queens.

In comment 14287172 ZGiants98 said:

Quote:

@NYPost_Mets Brodie: "Sports, in general, should be about putting the best product on the field and trying to compete every day. Certainly we do that here."

LOL. How can he lie like that!?

At 10:05 AM today I said the following in the MLB thread

"The Mets, for example, have been pushing this narrative that they have been trying to win and put the best product on the field possible. That hasn't been true since 2008... and still isn't this year.

It's the disingenuous messaging that really sucks, not the act itself. "

Link - ( New Window )

making a late charge for Realmuto.

Has Mets winning 91 games.

In comment 14288181 DanMetroMan said:

Quote:

making a late charge for Realmuto.

If the price is the equivalent of what we were thinking with the LAD I wouldn't be devastated by that - especially if it's in lieu of Machado & Harper. Realmuto is a very good player, but he's going to be expensive to resign, gotta think he gets $100m even in this market.

In comment 14288268 Eric on Li said:

Quote:

In comment 14288181 DanMetroMan said: Quote: making a late charge for Realmuto. If the price is the equivalent of what we were thinking with the LAD I wouldn't be devastated by that - especially if it's in lieu of Machado & Harper. Realmuto is a very good player, but he's going to be expensive to resign, gotta think he gets $100m even in this market.

Writers are saying Realmuto would be unrelated to their interest in the other 2. ie trying to add him AND one of them. Would make them the NLE favorites.

still have a hard time making either them or Atlanta clear favorites over the Nats though bc of their pitching. Arrieta would need to turn the clock back or Dominguez would need to literally be the 2nd coming of Diaz. Also not in love with the fit for them with Robertson since he's a little prone to giving up homers.

I'd still rather the Phillies add Harper (even with Realmuto too) than have him go back to the Nats.

TLDR = exit velocity recovered post all star break last year, pitch recognition has improved, plate coverage has improved, hopefully lineup around him improved. Was already a good player, at age 26 this may be the year he becomes a great player.

I'd say he's right and that Conforto is probably their best candidate to improve significantly and outperform the projections. Steamer has him at 3.1 war, his best season (2017) was 4.4, so it's easy to see a good amount of upside if he has his best year yet.
Sarris: This could be the year Michael Conforto becomes a superstar - ( New Window )

In comment 14288723 Eric on Li said:

Quote:

TLDR = exit velocity recovered post all star break last year, pitch recognition has improved, plate coverage has improved, hopefully lineup around him improved. Was already a good player, at age 26 this may be the year he becomes a great player. I'd say he's right and that Conforto is probably their best candidate to improve significantly and outperform the projections. Steamer has him at 3.1 war, his best season (2017) was 4.4, so it's easy to see a good amount of upside if he has his best year yet. Sarris: This could be the year Michael Conforto becomes a superstar - ( New Window )

I think Sarris is my favorite baseball writer around. Praise from him is something we should take seriously. Conforto did look great in the second half last year. Excited to see what he can do this year.

Can't wait till camp starts. Offseason stresses me out more than the baseball games sometimes. Been so much talk this year about the GM search, Wilpon spending, offseason moves, etc., really just want to start focusing on baseball games and our players. Not sure I can handle another year where the season is over before the all-star break.

I don't think they will though because this is the most complete team they've entered a season with in a while. I think they will need to make moves in-season to win the division, but should be competitive for a wild card as is. the 3 questions to me are:

1. can the sp stay healthy? Need at least 2 of the top 3.
2. can Cano or Conforto (or someone else) be "the guy" and put themselves in the MVP conversation. Need 1.
3. can Mickey handle the playing time distribution. Even for an experienced manager this roster would be a tough jigsaw puzzle to get everyone PT.

Nimmo maintains,ast year,or another step forward
Conforto, as the article points out
Rosario has the most unrealized upside
Alonso could hit 40
Cano could repeat his half a season
Legares/Broxton could provide 4-5 wins without a lock of offense
Ces could return and put up 4-5 wins
Thor will be the games best pitcher

Flip side, is all the known downsides to this team. Could win 95. Could lose 95 lol

which would you guys be interested in:

.

what players do you like on this list:

Andrelton Simmons SS Angels
Tyler Skaggs SP Angels
Andrew Heaney SP Angels
Keynan Middleton RP Angels
Marcus Semien SS Athletics
Dustin Fowler CF Athletics
Mike Fiers SP Athletics
Trevor Cahill SP Angels
Justin Smoak 1B Blue Jays
Marcus Stroman SP Blue Jays
Ken Giles RP Blue Jays
Kevin Pillar OF Blue Jays
Randal Grichuk OF Blue Jays
Marcell Ozuna OF Cardinals
Adam Wainwright SP Cardinals
Ben Zobrist IF Cubs
Cole Hamels SP Cubs
Kris Bryant 3B Cubs
Jose Quintana SP Cubs
Jon Lester SP Cubs
Steve Cishek RP Cubs
Steven Souza Jr. OF Diamondbacks
Zack Greinke SP DIamondbacks
Taijuan Walker SP Diamondbacks
Zack Godley SP DIamondbacks
Robbie Ray SP Diamondbacks
Archie Bradley RP DIamondbacks
Madison Bumgarner SP Giants
Evan Longoria 3B Giants
Will Smith RP GIants
Tony Watson RP Giants
Mark Melancon RP GIants
Jeff Samardzija SP GIants
Ryan Moronta RP Giants
Jason Kipnis IF/OF Indians
Trevor Bauer SP Indians
Leonys Martin OF Indians
Greg Allen OF Indians
Corey Klubper SP Indians
Brad Hand RP Indians
Carlos Carrasco SP Indians
Trevor Buaer SP Indians
Bradley Zimmer OF Indians
Mallex Smith OF Mariners
Lewis Brinson OF Marlins
Starlin Castro IF Marins
Trey Mancini OF Orioles
Dylan Bundy SP Orioles
Mychal Givens RP Orioles
Darren O'Day RP Orioles
Cedric Mullins OF Orioles
Matt Strahm RP Padres
Kirby Yates RP Padres
Francisco Mejia C Padres
Starlin Marte CF Pirates
Chris Archer SP Pirates
Francisco Liriano SP Piarates
Felipe Vazquez RP Pirates
Keone Kela RP Pirates
Jose Leclerc RP Rangers
Shelby Miller SP Rangers
Joey Gallo OF/DH Rangers
Drew Smyly . SP . Rangers
Daniel Murphy . 1B/2B Rockies
Nolan Arenado . 3B Rockies**extremely unlikely but contracts are coming up and you might want to make a Piazza like play.
Mike Trout . CF Angels**Same as Arenado
Bryan Shaw RP-Rockies
Billy Hamilton CF -Royals
Danny Duffy SP -Royals
Kelvin Herrera RP-WhiteSox

And Trout
Those are my two

that they could be made available, if those franchises are struggling. I wonder if an offer of Rosario, Conforto, and Mauricio would get Trout.

In comment 14288876 CMicks3110 said:

Quote:

that they could be made available, if those franchises are struggling. I wonder if an offer of Rosario, Conforto, and Mauricio would get Trout.

Not even close to enough. Trout would bring back the biggest package of young talent in the history of MLB trades. The Mets could offer their top 5 best young players MLB/Minors and not have it be enough.

Nimmo, Rosario, Thor and Alonso don't land you Mike Trout.

is 89th in the history of the sport in fWAR. Assuming a normal season from him he will pass guys like Gary Carter, Miguel Cabrera and Eddie Murray... in 2019. Ya know, 3 HOF or future HOFers.

sign Hellickson. Solid move. Quietly very decent in 2018. Reportedly the Mets spoke to him.

In comment 14288886 DanMetroMan said:

Quote:

is 89th in the history of the sport in fWAR. Assuming a normal season from him he will pass guys like Gary Carter, Miguel Cabrera and Eddie Murray... in 2019. Ya know, 3 HOF or future HOFers.

He's really amazing. Might be a top 3 all-time player when it's all said and done. Hope he gets a chance to play on a good team one day.

is the best player I've ever seen play. Offensive alone, Bonds but we know the deal there. A-Rod is up there... but he too...

In comment 14288878 DanMetroMan said:

Quote:

Nimmo, Rosario, Thor and Alonso don't land you Mike Trout.

even if they did land you Mike Trout the Mets shouldn't make that trade, because if you do then you're the Angels with Mike Trout.

He's the best player in baseball and he's been to the playoffs less times than Michael Conforto and Conforto is younger. Obviously not comparing the two, just showing how trading your whole team for Trout doesn't make your team win.

Mets would be better off signing Harper than trading for Trout.

If Rosario doesn't take a step forward, Simmons would be a gamechanger defensively while also upgrading the offense.

Kluber and Bumgarner could obviously take them from a big 2/3 to a big 3/4. If Wheeler doesn't pitch like he did in the 2nd half, that's a need. Or if someone gets hurt. Kluber and Bumgarner could both be the final "verlander" piece for a contending team and we've heard rumors that both have been available.

Relievers are tough to predict but virtually any contending team needs to trade for 1 at mid season.

1.3 guaranteed? Damn. Great move for the Nats.

Quote:

We�re not calling New York�s starting depth a weakness; however, there is no place on the roster where the Mets can more affordably upgrade in our minds than here. A range of options on the free-agent market exists that would allow the Mets to simply fortify their depth or even turn the back end into a legitimate strength. Gio Gonz�lez, long a thorn in New York�s side, is a year removed from finishing sixth in NL Cy Young voting. Ervin Santana finished seventh in the AL in 2017. Clay Buchholz posted a 2.01 ERA for Arizona in a bounceback year last season. All are available. Alternatively, the Mets can roll the dice with what they have and make a bigger decision come July 31. They can see whether Vargas can indeed replicate his late-season success � the struggles down the stretch of 2017 carried over, so why not the good times as well? � and how often they need to tap into the depth behind him. They can see what arms come available on the trade market and how big a splash they need to make given the state of the division. Patience may only cost them a game or two in the first four months. But in what figures to be one of baseball�s most competitive divisions in 2019, a game or two in the first four months can haunt. This is a franchise that knows the value of one regular-season game in hindsight. The 2006 Mets could survive without starting depth. The 2007 Mets could not. There is a chance now to proactively fix what could become New York�s biggest problem.

Also Pecota says 89-73 (tied with Nats at top of division) - so that's cool.
With Jason Vargas currently slated as the Mets� fifth starter, should the team be looking for an upgrade? - ( New Window )

5th starter is useless in the playoffs.
Do you spend the money on another 5th, when you can sign depth arms instead for much, much less?
Do you spend money elsewhere to build a better playoff team instead?

The debate is, it don�t mean shit what you built if you don�t MAKE the playoffs. Why is it a debate? The money guys say make the playoffs and go deep. The Sabre guys say MAKE the playoffs and then gamble. The baseball guys say the team needs to be built a certain way to win I. The playoffs...

In comment 14289655 Shecky said:

Quote:

5th starter is useless in the playoffs. Do you spend the money on another 5th, when you can sign depth arms instead for much, much less? Do you spend money elsewhere to build a better playoff team instead? The debate is, it don�t mean shit what you built if you don�t MAKE the playoffs. Why is it a debate? The money guys say make the playoffs and go deep. The Sabre guys say MAKE the playoffs and then gamble. The baseball guys say the team needs to be built a certain way to win I. The playoffs...

We made the playoffs once since 2006. Twice since 2000. Making the playoffs for this organization is HUGE. Been a Met fan my whole life and sadly we're not the Yankees who can look ahead to the playoffs in February. We need to get there. If we can improve our odds of getting there by acquiring another arm, then they absolutely should.

Even if you want to count 2016 as a playoff year, that team lost in the play-in game. If we lose the division by a game or two and have to burn DeGrom (or lose the play-in game) because Oswalt started 2-3 games and got shelled, it'll be really frustrating.

NL East looks like a very competitive and tight division this year. By all means, the Mets look to be in the mix. I'd really love to sure up a potential weakness and improve our odds of finally getting back to the dance.

Vargas was an unbelievably stupid move by Sandy. Vargas was coming off a great first half, the WORST 2nd half of any SP in baseball and was turning 35. How the fuck does that get you a 2 year deal at 16 million? Unbelievably bad and looked that way even at the time.

Fred is desperate to make the p,ayoffs.
But the numbers guys oook at a Gio and laugh that he would be the make or break difference in a playoff team or not. It is what it is.
Anything can happen, they may sign him, or anyone else for that matter. But at their number only at this point.

and catchers. Is there a point where the Mets get in on any of these guys?

Quote:

Jayson Stark ‏Verified account @jaysonst Time for a Feb. 6 edition of the All-Unemployed Team! 1B - Marwin Gonzalez, 2B - Josh Harrison, SS - Manny Machado, 3B - Mike Moustakas. LF - Gerardo Parra, CF - Adam Jones, RF - Bryce Harper DH - Evan Gattis C - Martin Maldonado All-Unemployed Pitching Staff is next...! 10:16 AM - 6 Feb 2019

Quote:

Jayson Stark ‏Verified account @jaysonst 24h24 hours ago Now the All-Unemployed Pitching Staff! Rotation: Dallas Keuchel Gio Gonzalez Ervin Santana Jeremy Hellickson James Shields Closer - Craig Kimbrel Opener- Sergio Romo RHs - Ryan Madson, Brad Boxberger, Bud Norris, AJ Ramos, Tyler Clippard LHs - Jake Diekman, Tony Sipp

Remove Hellickson obviously and I thought I read Boxberger signed with KC

Diekman or Madson + someone like Buchholz or Brett Anderson. Fuck Bud Norris.

Yeah, I�m pretty sure when Vargas signed, it was the rare time everyone here kinda scratched their heads a bit. The group here NEVER agrees on anything, so that�s telling.

opinion considering he had just been his pitching coach for like 4 years in KC. 2 of those years he had been solid by back of the rotation standards, 2 of those years he sucked.

Btw to me Gio (or another SP) is just as much a hedge on Matz/Wheeler as he is on Vargas. In his worst year in 9 years last year he was still more productive than Matz overall and threw 20 more innings last year. In the postseason you need 3-4 SP. We are 1 injury away from having to start Vargas in a playoff game.

@Shecky, if they want to invest in other areas I have no issue with that. Had they signed Brach/Kelly + Blevins (or some combo like that) to 1 year deals hoping to build a deep enough BP to afford Gselleman or Lugo hedging the SP that would have been fine too.

not sign a guy that they likely won't use in the post-season (in the same role) when they've been to the post-season once (plus a WC play-in game they lost) in the past 12 years.

You build the roster to get to the playoffs, and then maybe at the deadline shore it up to optimize the team for the playoffs, but even then, the goal should be to get there first then adjust to win.

To say the Mets have decided not to sign Gio because he wouldn't start in the post-season is almost a reason you can point to as to why they won't get there. Once Matz goes on the DL or go forbid one of the big three does then your season is in the shitter with PJ Conlon or Corey Oswalt making significant starts.

in large part explains a lot of the failures of this organization the past 2 decades. Certainly all the collapses during the Omar era. He made a lot of flashy moves (many good) but did not build a solid foundation underneath. Sandy built a strong foundation but his era ultimately was defined by bad choices and minimal resources to expand on that foundation.

So far BVW has been somewhat of a hybrid. But as always there's little margin for error because it appears he's fighting the same uphill battle his predecessor had with the Wilpons being penny wise/pound foolish in their inability to just admit a past mistake (Vargas) and move on. Or at least hedge.

anything, it's that unexpected injuries are likely to occur during the season. Sometimes, a lot of them will occur. The best way to combat that is with depth.

It's not unrealistic to see a scenario where one or more of Oswalt, Flexen, Conlon end up having to start games for a Mets team in the thick of the race (not to mention the realistic possibility that 36 year old Jason Vargas doesn't improve on last year).

I'm not panicking on this or anything because Brodie is likely aware of this, but we could really use one more arm. LAD, the team that's won the NL, and makes the playoffs every year, has a huge stable of arms that it can go to and was able to win again last year despite Kershaw and Ryu (not to mention top prospect Urias) all missing significant time.

It's not realistic to expect to match that depth (and maybe we don't have to given how strong our top end of rotation is) but it serves to illustrate how important depth is and given the awful state of the Mets AAA pitching, we really should be adding another arm.

nice little depth move. Ramos has been hurt a lot, as has TDA. Good to have extra depth there.

In comment 14290061 Metnut said:

Quote:

nice little depth move. Ramos has been hurt a lot, as has TDA. Good to have extra depth there.

minor league deal. invitation to ST.

he will likely be our backup catcher opening day, and honestly TDA should just hang out on the DL until he's needed. Still surprised they think he's worth 3m to do that when you can get someone like Mesoraco for near minimum, but I guess it's still possible TDA gets cut in ST.

And not the 5th spot - you short a helluva lot higher than Gio. Next years #3 starter does need o be found, sooner rather try than later.

Sign Harrison for the Zobrist role, trade McNeil, Matz and Peterson/Kay for Bauer!!!!

In comment 14290074 Shecky said:

Quote:

And not the 5th spot - you short a helluva lot higher than Gio. Next years #3 starter does need o be found, sooner rather try than later. Sign Harrison for the Zobrist role, trade McNeil, Matz and Peterson/Kay for Bauer!!!!

No issue shooting higher - I don't think anyone would have a problem with them signing Keuchel if the deal is reasonable. Gio could probably be a better value on a 1-2 year deal, but honestly there's no reason not to aim higher. I'd be willing to bet that even if they signed Keuchel, Vargas would still end up making 10-15 starts this season.

at 89 wins... tied with the Nats.

Gio, stretches out the rotation and hedges against potential injury. If Wheeler pitches like he did last year, we then have an elite elite pitching staff, given the additions to the buillpen.

Norris is a dickhead and sounds like maybe even racist. There is a reason he's available every year this late. Still time but my one gripe (beyond Harper/Machado)... really thought there were plenty of cheap BP arms they could have added that would have upgraded this team, also the SP market has had plenty of guys I would have taken over/in addition to having Vargas.


-Here's the question you should be asking yourself... if Vargas were a FA, would he be your pick to be the Mets #5 SP? If not, the Mets should be looking to improve. Hellickson only received 1.3. Add another option (Buchholz, Santana etc) Not even crapping on Lockett but he and Dowdy very well might not even be big leaguers. These aren't top prospects you should put a ton of faith into.And they may end up better than what's available but Buchholz, Anderson etc have actual track records of recent success. Add them too.

what are your thoughts on the Mets bullpen as currently constituted?

In comment 14290597 CMicks3110 said:

Quote:

what are your thoughts on the Mets bullpen as currently constituted?

I think it's solid on paper with little room for error and could be further bolstered on the cheap so it would be silly not to. I loved moves like Blake Parker for the Twins. I also think despite his reputation Mickey's bullpen usage really hurt the team. Bashlor is a high octane 1 inning guy, wasn't used like that. Gsellman was used far too much.

I mean overuse is part of the game, you use your best guys the most because.. well they are you're best guys. But Bashlor CLEARLY wasn't the same pitcher when he came out for second innings. Gsellman is a former starter but that doesn't mean he's used to pitching 70 times or whatever it was. I still see some interesting arms out there for cheap. I think we could/should add 1 RP and 1 SP and both would be very cheap. I personally like Santana/Anderson/Buchholtz as the starter and the RP... Madson, Diekman, Warren level guy

and I really thing Lugo is a weapon out of the Pen. With a top of the pen of Diaz, Familila, Lugo, I think that is a top 5 trio in baseball. I think if we see someone emerge like Drew Smith or Bashlor, that would be extremely helpful as well.

We won 77 games last year, almost solely on the weight of our starting pitching. How many games did deGrom not win because the bullpen blew it.

Our bullpen WAR was -0.6.

If you remember, our 11 game winning streak at the beginning of the season, the biggest driver was the pen. So I am hopeful this can be a major strength.

In comment 14290618 CMicks3110 said:

Quote:

and I really thing Lugo is a weapon out of the Pen. With a top of the pen of Diaz, Familila, Lugo, I think that is a top 5 trio in baseball. I think if we see someone emerge like Drew Smith or Bashlor, that would be extremely helpful as well. We won 77 games last year, almost solely on the weight of our starting pitching. How many games did deGrom not win because the bullpen blew it. Our bullpen WAR was -0.6. If you remember, our 11 game winning streak at the beginning of the season, the biggest driver was the pen. So I am hopeful this can be a major strength.

See that's my issue.. a contender should be viewing Bashlor/Smith emerging as potential bonuses. Neither one is a sure thing (at all). They may provide quality innings, they might not. But adding someone like Madson or Warren or someone of that ilk provides insurance if they don't and if they don't... you're again very thin. We know injuries happen, we know a guy like Vargas at his realistic best doesn't go very deep into games. Pen depth is essential. I really liked Bashlor in the minors but he was scary bad in terms of how comfortable hitters look. When it comes to RP it's a bad sign when their first taste hitters make such strong contact because this is their first time seeing them. I still like Bashlor, just wouldn't shock me if he went either way.

I think right now the pen sets up needing both of them to do what Addison Reed and Familia did in 2016/2017 - which was basically pitch perfect for among the most innings at their respective positions, each appearing in ~80 games. It worked out in 2016 when they were healthy (4th best BP in baseball) but did not in 2017 (3rd worst BP) with virtually the same personnel. In 2016 both players threw 77 innings with sub 2.5 eras. In comparison, Edwin Diaz threw 73 innings last year and it was the first time he went over 70. The 2 years prior he threw 66 innings and 51 innings respectively.

From 2014-2016 Familia threw 77-78 innings per year, which were among tops in the game, and I suspect a big reason why he ended up injured in 2017.

Just to follow the analogy through, the #3/#4 guys in BP innings that year were Robles (77 innings) and Blevins (42 innings in 73 appearances). Wilson and Lugo should be able take those innings this year.

So as Dan said - they should be in the market more for depth. The upside is being among the top BP's in baseball. But the downside is 2017 where 1 injury, perhaps coinciding with overuse, can knock it down far below.

but a big market contender, I can see a contender in Milwaukee or Minnesota rolling the dice with what they have, but a contender in NY should not.

Yes, it makes a difference.

The Mets should absolutely add another starter. And I have convinced myself they will.

And they should add another bullpen arm.

Guys like Bashlor, Smith, Conlon, Oswalt, etc. should not be the first or worse only option to backfill for injuries.

Meaningful August baseball shouldn't be a stretch goal. I'm not even begging for meaningful September baseball, I just want to be relevant post deadline (and then I'll want to compete for the playoffs)

"they should be in the market more for depth. The upside is being among the top BP's in baseball. But the downside is 2017 where 1 injury, perhaps coinciding with overuse, can knock it down far below." you're a Diaz or Familia (heavy usage) injury from using guys like Lugo (with arm concerns) far more than you'd like and then you NEED "maybe they emerge" types to pitch well to even stay afloat. You get 40-60 solid innings from a Warren type and that's a potential 1-2 game swing.. a huge difference. Same with having another SP like a Brett Anderson/Buchholz type. These available options would be very cheap too.

to shit on a guy but PJ Colon in 2018...121.2 innings 162 hits (not a typo) 41 walks 87 k's 6.69 era. He shouldn't even be on the depth radar at this point. If he somehow bounces back, great.

well, we got some decent upside pitchers on MiL deals. And wouldn't someone like Warren be equivalent to Fernando Salas in 2016. A decent vet, but no guarantee that they're going to be good. And Salas was not good in '17. You can say the same about AJ Ramos.

I also forgot Sewald, who looked good in '17 and who's FIP indicates that he performed better than his numbers suggest.

both basically got "fernando salas money" for 1 year and both have been good pitchers at the back end of bullpens for a long time. Could either implode and be terrible? Sure. Both could also be among the 30 most valuable relievers in the game. In a down year last year Brach was among the 60 best, which in theory means he was a competent #2/#3 guy in a BP.

Blevins was also a miss on a minor league deal. Yes he sucked last year. But prior to that he was among the top lefty specialists in the game. He's another guy who suffered from overuse the past 2-3 years here.

Adding a Warren type would go a long way though. As would adding another SP. With pitching you need strength in numbers.

In comment 14290661 CMicks3110 said:

Quote:

well, we got some decent upside pitchers on MiL deals. And wouldn't someone like Warren be equivalent to Fernando Salas in 2016. A decent vet, but no guarantee that they're going to be good. And Salas was not good in '17. You can say the same about AJ Ramos. I also forgot Sewald, who looked good in '17 and who's FIP indicates that he performed better than his numbers suggest.

Not sure I understand the Salas/Warren connection. Salas had a 4.64 FIP with the Angels so they dumped him. He wasn't good and then came to the Mets and wasn't. He was already bad when they added him. They hoped for a rebound. Adam Warren had a mediocre but not terrible 3.94 FIP but still 9.1 k/9 and last 93 appearances has a 2.72 era. Sewald is a junkballer. His success at all is a pleasant surprise. He's likely not much of a big leaguer. Also, not really clear your argument of "you can say the same about AJ Ramos" makes a ton of sense here. AJ Ramos "on the cheap" as all these options would be would have been a fine gamble at the time. The issue was his salary/role/expectations.

In comment 14290661 CMicks3110 said:

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well, we got some decent upside pitchers on MiL deals. And wouldn't someone like Warren be equivalent to Fernando Salas in 2016. A decent vet, but no guarantee that they're going to be good. And Salas was not good in '17. You can say the same about AJ Ramos. I also forgot Sewald, who looked good in '17 and who's FIP indicates that he performed better than his numbers suggest.

Anyone can have a bad year - but there are strength in numbers. There is no downside to having more options. But your point is correct - they truthfully would have been better served signing another guy with true closer experience like Soria or Ottavino or Robertson. That may have been a better use of money than Lowrie considering the depth that already existing on the IF with Mcneil, but that's certainly debatable.

Madson, Buchholtz, Warren, Axford (would love to give him a look are among the guys we should be looking at and are far better bets than Sewald and his 90 mph FB. If a guy like Sewald bounces back.. that's a bonus. Relying on guys bouncing back that aren't particularly great is how you end up scrambling.

I hate to say it this way, but a throw away guy for the manager to abuse, but also has some skills.

Led the league in appearances three consecutive years - a couple of them pretty effective (before succumbing to the volume)

Who is that guy? Hopefully not Lugo or Gsellman. you know it's not Familia or Diaz or one of the lefties (Wilson or Avilan).

Not sure who else is good enough to be thrown in to literally every situation on almost daily basis.

Another veteran arm would be good.

8.89 K/9 average FB somehow still 95.5 MPH. 19th in the league in LD%, so he's still fooling hitters. Quietly would be a very nice add, and closing experience.

In comment 14290679 pjcas18 said:

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I hate to say it this way, but a throw away guy for the manager to abuse, but also has some skills. Led the league in appearances three consecutive years - a couple of them pretty effective (before succumbing to the volume) Who is that guy? Hopefully not Lugo or Gsellman. you know it's not Familia or Diaz or one of the lefties (Wilson or Avilan). Not sure who else is good enough to be thrown in to literally every situation on almost daily basis. Another veteran arm would be good.

Could be Gsellman. I think he's viewed as cannon fodder with some hope he bounces back.

also.. somehow still 96 MPH, 9.23 K/9

In comment 14290686 DanMetroMan said:

Quote:

In comment 14290679 pjcas18 said: Quote: I hate to say it this way, but a throw away guy for the manager to abuse, but also has some skills. Led the league in appearances three consecutive years - a couple of them pretty effective (before succumbing to the volume) Who is that guy? Hopefully not Lugo or Gsellman. you know it's not Familia or Diaz or one of the lefties (Wilson or Avilan). Not sure who else is good enough to be thrown in to literally every situation on almost daily basis. Another veteran arm would be good. Could be Gsellman. I think he's viewed as cannon fodder with some hope he bounces back.

So is Lugo the swing man/spot starter? Or is there no one in the bullpen who has that role?

2016 Gsellman was really good as a starter. I guess the league figured him out pretty quickly.

In comment 14290679 pjcas18 said:

Quote:

I hate to say it this way, but a throw away guy for the manager to abuse, but also has some skills. Led the league in appearances three consecutive years - a couple of them pretty effective (before succumbing to the volume) Who is that guy? Hopefully not Lugo or Gsellman. you know it's not Familia or Diaz or one of the lefties (Wilson or Avilan). Not sure who else is good enough to be thrown in to literally every situation on almost daily basis. Another veteran arm would be good.

Adam Warren would seemingly be a good fit for that type of role. Brach would have been perfect and he's a NY area guy too.

a final note on Ramos.. most people noted Ramos was in decline/not particularly great. The hope was he'd be able to replace Addison Reed (who people expected to get much more money than he did). Nobody (that I saw) expected AJ Ramos to be any great shakes, he was bad but it's not like he was pitching well until he got here. He had a 3.91 FIP with Miami before he got here, .3 fWAR after back to back 1+ fWAR seasons, it was "known" he was having a bad year, he was an expensive "hope he bounces back".

In comment 14290693 pjcas18 said:

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So is Lugo the swing man/spot starter? Or is there no one in the bullpen who has that role? 2016 Gsellman was really good as a starter. I guess the league figured him out pretty quickly.

Lugo is a reliever until Vargas gets lit up or Matz takes his trip to the DL. They will probably give Lockett or Oswalt or Dowdy first crack as a call up not wanting to yo-yo Lugo, but in the likely event those guys don't do the job Lugo is the obvious longer term choice.

You could probably make a good argument they should just put him in the rotation and sign 2 BP guys. He would probably have a better year as a starter than Matz.

is on a starters throwing plan this off-season. Gsellman has been training as an RP. Brodie mentioned them both this week as potential SP depth (while calling Santiago an all-star lol) so I wouldn't read a ton into those quotes other than Lugo is intriguing as an SP, Gsellman I think had something of a fluky run. Lugo.. could be something there, some of the numbers suggest he could be a real sleeper given a chance. Lugo also has said he prefers starting, Gsellman said he feels comfortable in the pen so...

In comment 14290698 Eric on Li said:

Quote:

In comment 14290693 pjcas18 said: Quote: So is Lugo the swing man/spot starter? Or is there no one in the bullpen who has that role? 2016 Gsellman was really good as a starter. I guess the league figured him out pretty quickly. Lugo is a reliever until Vargas gets lit up or Matz takes his trip to the DL. They will probably give Lockett or Oswalt or Dowdy first crack as a call up not wanting to yo-yo Lugo, but in the likely event those guys don't do the job Lugo is the obvious longer term choice. You could probably make a good argument they should just put him in the rotation and sign 2 BP guys. He would probably have a better year as a starter than Matz.

I'd be all about this.

In comment 14290697 DanMetroMan said:

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a final note on Ramos.. most people noted Ramos was in decline/not particularly great. The hope was he'd be able to replace Addison Reed (who people expected to get much more money than he did). Nobody (that I saw) expected AJ Ramos to be any great shakes, he was bad but it's not like he was pitching well until he got here. He had a 3.91 FIP with Miami before he got here, .3 fWAR after back to back 1+ fWAR seasons, it was "known" he was having a bad year, he was an expensive "hope he bounces back".

and he cost merandy gonzalez in addition to the $$$.

and I still don't care if Merandy Gonzalez completely shits the bed, it was a stupid trade.

It was like not protecting Jesus Flores in rule V. Flores wound up sucking, but IMO it was very obvious he'd be selected and there were other options.

In comment 14290706 DanMetroMan said:

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You could probably make a good argument they should just put him in the rotation and sign 2 BP guys.

Yeah I'd have no issue whatsoever forgoing signing a SP (Gio), instead signing 2 more veteran BP guys (Madson + Warren?), and letting Lugo compete with Matz + Vargas for the 4/5 spots in ST. Worst case scenario they all pitch well either Lugo or Vargas goes to the pen as a spot starter.

I just wish they would have added 1 of the better RP's earlier in the offseason if that was the plan.

In comment 14290716 Eric on Li said:

Quote:

In comment 14290706 DanMetroMan said: Quote: You could probably make a good argument they should just put him in the rotation and sign 2 BP guys. Yeah I'd have no issue whatsoever forgoing signing a SP (Gio), instead signing 2 more veteran BP guys (Madson + Warren?), and letting Lugo compete with Matz + Vargas for the 4/5 spots in ST. Worst case scenario they all pitch well either Lugo or Vargas goes to the pen as a spot starter. I just wish they would have added 1 of the better RP's earlier in the offseason if that was the plan.

I think this would make a lot of sense. There is something very intriguing about Lugo. Granted his arm health is scary but both the Cubs and Astros (2 smart teams) targeted him via trade. He's had a weird path but I'd be very interested to see what he could do pitching every 5th day and sticking 2 of the remaining FA arms in the pen.

Wowzas. Twins RP Taylor Rogers second half... 28.2 innings 11 hits 8 walks 35 k's (.118/.204/.152) Bonkers.

I think Lugo, if he's healthy and starting, has #3 starter upside, and it might be prudent to groom him as such, given the uncertainty of resigning Wheeler after the season.

With regards to bullpen arms. Brodie could just be taking a wait and see approach, and makes an in-season move. Allows the financial flexibility - if we're doing well, there will be arms out there to buy mid-season.


I wouldn't be surprised if the Mets have some groundwork made for a trade with the Rangers for Leclerc, there was some rumors earlier in the off-season of some substantial discussions between Texas and NYM, and perhaps they were gathering parameters around that type of ask.

I would love to add Leclerc or Felipe Vazquez from Pittsburgh if those teams are out of contention - which they most certainly would be.

Gimenez is the interesting trade piece here. He is completely blocked at the ML level. Whether it be Cano, Rosario, McNeil, the MI positions are blocked for at least 3-4 years and I see Gimenez being a Caesar Hernandez type player. Do you trade him for a high upside reliever and try to build a super pen to accompany a super rotation?

In comment 14290716 Eric on Li said:

Quote:

In comment 14290706 DanMetroMan said: Quote: You could probably make a good argument they should just put him in the rotation and sign 2 BP guys. Yeah I'd have no issue whatsoever forgoing signing a SP (Gio), instead signing 2 more veteran BP guys (Madson + Warren?), and letting Lugo compete with Matz + Vargas for the 4/5 spots in ST. Worst case scenario they all pitch well either Lugo or Vargas goes to the pen as a spot starter. I just wish they would have added 1 of the better RP's earlier in the offseason if that was the plan.

I agree with this too

and stockpiling talent there, with pre-free agency players, is that the Mets have spent a lot of money on pen arms over under the Alderson era, and got almost no return on investment.

Swarzak
Bastardo
Salas
Ramos
Alex Torres
Francisco

That's a lot of resource allocation to a position that needs depth and quality, and they were getting nothing out of these players. Addison Reed is the only I can think of that added value. Blevins was decent.

Having that additional cash to spend elsewhere, hopefully to keep the rotation intact (I really really hope we can keep both Wheeler and deGrom) I think is pivotal to success over the next 2-4 years.

should be moved to CF. No word they plan on doing that but that's a move I would make.

a) Rosario hasn't locked down the SS spot.
b) Lowrie's contract expires in 2 years. Next year when Frazier move on, he could end up in a super sub role if Mcneil needs an every day spot. Or if Gimenez is knocking on the door.
c) 2B could easily open up with Cano shifting to DH or 1B in the next few years.

In all likelihood the earliest Gimenez gets called up is May 2020 at age 21. The only way I include him in a trade between now and then is if an MVP/Cy young candidate is coming back.

In comment 14290743 DanMetroMan said:

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should be moved to CF. No word they plan on doing that but that's a move I would make.

What about Rosario to CF?

Who is the better defensive SS, Rosario or Gimenez?

Mets fans have been kind of spoiled with SS defense from Elster, Ordonez, Reyes, and now hopefully Rosario or Gimenez.

will be the starting 3B in 2021, mark my words. I expect him to skyrocket this year.

In comment 14290742 CMicks3110 said:

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and stockpiling talent there, with pre-free agency players, is that the Mets have spent a lot of money on pen arms over under the Alderson era, and got almost no return on investment. Swarzak Bastardo Salas Ramos Alex Torres Francisco That's a lot of resource allocation to a position that needs depth and quality, and they were getting nothing out of these players. Addison Reed is the only I can think of that added value. Blevins was decent. Having that additional cash to spend elsewhere, hopefully to keep the rotation intact (I really really hope we can keep both Wheeler and deGrom) I think is pivotal to success over the next 2-4 years.

The total spend on every single player you listed at their peak will barely equal 1 year of JDG. None of them were anything more than journeyman. The entire cost of the BP this year is currently less than $20m - which is probably about the same as Wheeler will get per year.

Sandy made some terrible BP acquisitions - no argument there - but that's by no means good evidence that they should spend less. Spending too little was the problem in the first place. We got what we paid for. Spending even less is not a solution to a problem.

Go through? If so loogys no longer serve much of a purpose, well unless you are facing the Mets lineup I guess

In comment 14290748 pjcas18 said:

Quote:

In comment 14290743 DanMetroMan said: Quote: should be moved to CF. No word they plan on doing that but that's a move I would make. What about Rosario to CF? Who is the better defensive SS, Rosario or Gimenez? Mets fans have been kind of spoiled with SS defense from Elster, Ordonez, Reyes, and now hopefully Rosario or Gimenez.

Gimenez seems get more acclaim for his fielding ability, the words "smooth" and "great instincts" seem to appear in every live report, last year BA considered him the best defensive SS in 1 of the leagues he played in. Rosario's range and arm strength were touted, but from what I remember he was more of a projection to be above average bc of his tools vs. already being considered a plus fielder.

In comment 14290752 CMicks3110 said:

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will be the starting 3B in 2021, mark my words. I expect him to skyrocket this year.

I love Vientos but it would be quite an achievement to start by 2021. He's just 19 and hasn't played above rookie ball yet.

Gimenez has rocketed through the system faster than anyone since Reyes and he played his entire 18 year old season at A ball (which Vientos will only reach this year). And a big reason why he was able to move up so quickly was playing good defense at a critical position - whereas defense is something Vientos still needs work on (by all reports).

In comment 14290748 pjcas18 said:

Quote:

In comment 14290743 DanMetroMan said: Quote: should be moved to CF. No word they plan on doing that but that's a move I would make. What about Rosario to CF? Who is the better defensive SS, Rosario or Gimenez? Mets fans have been kind of spoiled with SS defense from Elster, Ordonez, Reyes, and now hopefully Rosario or Gimenez.

Problem with Rosario in CF is it would impact the 2019 team if he struggles and ST is about to begin. That would have been a move to make in October.

has low odds of moving quickly. The bat could be very good but he's a rigid athlete that needs a lot of work at 3b. Part of the reason he's not more highly ranked is the concern he may end up at 1b. I'd guess odds of him sticking at 3b are 50/50. Lets hope.

Vientos was a high school SS, he's a big kid, and 3B seems like his destination. If he is a Flores/Murphy type athlete, I think he can certainly handle 3B assuming his bat supports that.

His bat seems very very intriguing. Some reports had his Exit Velos up amongst the best in the minors, as a teenager. I think he will skyrocket this year, just my opinion.

In comment 14290742 CMicks3110 said:

Quote:

and stockpiling talent there, with pre-free agency players, is that the Mets have spent a lot of money on pen arms over under the Alderson era, and got almost no return on investment. Swarzak Bastardo Salas Ramos Alex Torres Francisco That's a lot of resource allocation to a position that needs depth and quality, and they were getting nothing out of these players. Addison Reed is the only I can think of that added value. Blevins was decent. Having that additional cash to spend elsewhere, hopefully to keep the rotation intact (I really really hope we can keep both Wheeler and deGrom) I think is pivotal to success over the next 2-4 years.

This is a list that shows you the Mets actually cheap out when it comes to the pen, not that they have spent a lot on the pen. 2nd and third tier arms. Kind of confused by some of your inclusions... Alex Torres? They traded Cory Mazzoni for him and paid him league minimum. Fernando Salas they acquired for Erik Salas and was paid 2.4 million in 2016, 3 million in 2017.

In comment 14290796 CMicks3110 said:

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Vientos was a high school SS, he's a big kid, and 3B seems like his destination. If he is a Flores/Murphy type athlete, I think he can certainly handle 3B assuming his bat supports that. His bat seems very very intriguing. Some reports had his Exit Velos up amongst the best in the minors, as a teenager. I think he will skyrocket this year, just my opinion.

HS SS means almost nothing. It just means best player on the field in most cases. Mark Reynolds (whom some compare Vientos to) was also a HS SS and later had to move to 1b because he was rigid at 3b. "Certainly handle" is overstating things. There is a legit concern he has to move, hopefully it's not the case.

Steve Sypa in a positive piece about the bat

"Vientos is not unathletic, but he lacks explosive quick twitch muscle, resulting in a slow first step and below-average lateral quickness. His above-average arm and good instincts allow him to handle the routine play fine at third fine. There is worry that if he continues filling in, he will be forced to move to first base,"

but adding diaz, familia, and wilson this off-season, plus upside MiL deals like Avilan and Caminero. It's not like they didn't do anything.

(again, a very positive piece on the bat)

"Vientos looks pretty well put together, I guessed 6�4″ 200 lbs on the field. Particularly strong in the lower half. Some projection remaining, I could see him carrying another 10-15 lbs of muscle, particularly up top. Anything more than that and he might outgrow the left side of the diamond."

defensively, sounds a lot like Flores. If his bat is better, maybe like Moustakas, he could be a pretty solid player for us for a while.

Kiley " If the makeup has turned a corner and the hitting continues to progress, the main issue will be defensive fit. Vientos is a well below average runner who one scout described as �athletic from the knees up,� to the point where the lack of quickness will limit him to being average defensively, but he�s far from that right now. One Mets source drew a parallel to Nolan Arenado�s makeup and defensive concerns, which quickly evaporated in the upper minors as he turned into the best third baseman in baseball, but that seems unlikely at this point."

Hit Raw Power Game Power Run Fielding Throw
25/55 60/70 40/55 40/35 35/45 55/60

And I post all of this as a big Vientos fan and someone who has talked him up since we picked him. But he's not a strong candidate to move particularly quickly. Likely spends most of 2019 in the SAL, and most of 2020 in A+. If you're lucky and all goes well 2022 is likely his best case ETA

is going to be playing some OF this year?

He's obviously a long way away, and from what I believe a big kid who might grow off of SS anyway, but if he's got speed like Gimenez and Rosario and is athletic might be a good way to replace some OF upside lost with Kelenic.

especially with middle infield being the strength of the Mets minors.

is a nice flier (though his velocity drop is a major red flag) and Caminero's velocity makes him intriguing until he's not but he had an awful season in Japan so we'll see what happens but EVERY team adds guys like this, soon to be 32 year old hard throwers coming off bad seasons in Japan aren't exactly "depth".

In comment 14290811 pjcas18 said:

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is going to be playing some OF this year? He's obviously a long way away, and from what I believe a big kid who might grow off of SS anyway, but if he's got speed like Gimenez and Rosario and is athletic might be a good way to replace some OF upside lost with Kelenic. especially with middle infield being the strength of the Mets minors.

PJ,
I haven't seen that (not saying you are wrong) but where was this reported? I must have missed it.

how you can ascertain how quickly he moves through the system. Especially based on his lower half quickness (or lackthereof).

I would be more concerned if he had a high K rate, bad plate discipline, a frame that projected to show power but that didn't show yet. But none of those are the case.

He has shown good raw and in game power, he has shown pretty good plate discipline. If Rosario could make it by age 21, I think Vientos can. And 3B should be his for the taking once Lowrie contract expires.

In comment 14290814 DanMetroMan said:

Quote:

In comment 14290811 pjcas18 said: Quote: is going to be playing some OF this year? He's obviously a long way away, and from what I believe a big kid who might grow off of SS anyway, but if he's got speed like Gimenez and Rosario and is athletic might be a good way to replace some OF upside lost with Kelenic. especially with middle infield being the strength of the Mets minors. PJ, I haven't seen that (not saying you are wrong) but where was this reported? I must have missed it.

I thought Shecky said it, but he might have said Mauricio should play OF this year, not that he will.

In comment 14290815 CMicks3110 said:

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how you can ascertain how quickly he moves through the system. Especially based on his lower half quickness (or lackthereof). I would be more concerned if he had a high K rate, bad plate discipline, a frame that projected to show power but that didn't show yet. But none of those are the case. He has shown good raw and in game power, he has shown pretty good plate discipline. If Rosario could make it by age 21, I think Vientos can. And 3B should be his for the taking once Lowrie contract expires.

Not looking to get into a huge argument over something that can't be proven but skillset, 2018 numbers, 2019 placement and generally how fast a player moves are certainly things you can make educated guesses on. Vientos won't be 20 until after the 2019 season. Defensive concerns add to that. A plus fielder generally can be moved more quickly. For him to skip BK (which in itself is not fully guaranteed but likely) and then rocket through 4 levels in 2 seasons at 19-20 would be very, very unusual given all of that.

" He definitely isn�t Nolan Arenado when it comes to fielding, but he has an above-average arm. I could see him becoming a first baseman or a corner outfielder if his third base ability isn�t good enough. I think Vientos has a better bat than Newton and Mauricio but it may take him just as long to get to the Majors."

In comment 14290817 pjcas18 said:

Quote:

In comment 14290814 DanMetroMan said: Quote: In comment 14290811 pjcas18 said: Quote: is going to be playing some OF this year? He's obviously a long way away, and from what I believe a big kid who might grow off of SS anyway, but if he's got speed like Gimenez and Rosario and is athletic might be a good way to replace some OF upside lost with Kelenic. especially with middle infield being the strength of the Mets minors. PJ, I haven't seen that (not saying you are wrong) but where was this reported? I must have missed it. I thought Shecky said it, but he might have said Mauricio should play OF this year, not that he will.

They probably should but I doubt they will. Has enough on his plate with his bat (especially being a switch hitter).

would be a very nice add/gamble.

gun to your head. Do Mets sign Gio/Buchholz/Anderson?

In comment 14290844 CMicks3110 said:

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gun to your head. Do Mets sign Gio/Buchholz/Anderson?

Gio.. doubtful. I think SOMEONE gives him 2 years or a bigger 1 year deal than the Mets will. I know they have spoken to Buccholz so I'll say yes and be optimistic. His cutter was money this year, worth a shot.

But organizations generally move elite bats if they are producing and hope that the better coaching and better field conditions in upper minors lead to increased defensive skills. I mean do you really think if vientos is crushing it they won�t promote him in late June? I certainly don�t, especially with Omar seemingly having an influence

In comment 14290941 bhill410 said:

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But organizations generally move elite bats if they are producing and hope that the better coaching and better field conditions in upper minors lead to increased defensive skills. I mean do you really think if vientos is crushing it they won�t promote him in late June? I certainly don�t, especially with Omar seemingly having an influence

Skip a level and then late June leave the SAL? No absolutely not.

he can definitely move to A+ midway through the year Dan.

played 68 games in BK, 7 in Savannah, Gimenez 92 games in the SAL, Nimmo 69 in BK, 110 in Savannah. I can't think of any teem who skipped BK then played .5 in the SAL and then to A+, Wright 135 games in the SAL, Reyes 108

In comment 14290960 CMicks3110 said:

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he can definitely move to A+ midway through the year Dan.

Please give examples of teen/young prospects who had 1/2 of A-ball ab's that the Mets did this with. Thanks.

120 games in the SAL

Cecchini 53 in Kingsport, 53 in BK, 57 in Savannah

I've legit yet to find a single teen/20 year old player that the Mets did this with over the past 10+ years so it if happens it would be extremely unusual. Not even under Omar

In comment 14290941 bhill410 said:

Quote:

But organizations generally move elite bats if they are producing and hope that the better coaching and better field conditions in upper minors lead to increased defensive skills. I mean do you really think if vientos is crushing it they won�t promote him in late June? I certainly don�t, especially with Omar seemingly having an influence

Omar is more on the international side, all the new guys they brought into the FO are more on the player development side so it remains to be seen how aggressive they are. But let's just guesstimate a best case scenario for Vientos:

Starts the year amazing in A ball. Gets promoted to A+. Absolute fastest that will happen is what, 6 weeks? 2 months? Now lets say he crushes A+ in June/July. From August 1st on there are only about 25 games left at AA, so even if he's amazing it's probably not enough of a sample to move up again.

So in an absolute (non-Trout/Soto/Acuna) best case scenario, he's about where Gimenez is right now to start next season at age 20 - except with far fewer paths to the majors than Gimenez' due to defensive ability. And re: Gimenez, even with that defensive ability, nobody realistically thinks he's coming up this year. So that's why it's extremely hard to foresee Vientos getting up to the majors in the next 2 years unless he is literally the next Miguel Cabrera. Liked Dan I've loved him as a prospect since he was picked and argued all offseason that I'd rank him higher than Kelenic, but it's unfair to project any prospect below A ball to be Miguel Cabrera.

126 games in Savannah

Nido 38 in Kingsport, 91 in BK, 86 in Savannah

Legit only example I can find is Lastings Milledge 65 games in the SAL then St. Lucie

Still looking

Evans got 2nd round money so I'll throw him in 73 in brooklyn, 103 in Savannah. Not being snarky here. If Vientos plays half a season in Columbia and heads to St. Lucie, I believe he'd be joining ONLY Lastings Milledge that would fit this scenario laid out. Can't think of anyone else to even look up that would fit this mold.

who was a much less heralded prospects made the majors at age 20. Cecchini and Nimmo made substantial jumps in the age 20 seasons (and I believe both had injury issues); Dom Smith was slow, level by level, but that was most likely because of his lack of power. Dilson Herrera went from A+ to MLB in the same season, half a season, with the Mets.

also to your litmus test. I looked through the drafts of the last decade, and there were not even 10 teenage bats taken in the first 10 rounds of each draft. Mets focused almost solely on College Bats. So if your basing your argument solely on historical cases, its a very imperfect science that you have no basis to make, because the sample size is such that it makes it impossible to make that case. Further, this isa new front office with perhaps a more aggressive stance toward promotion.

In comment 14290982 CMicks3110 said:

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who was a much less heralded prospects made the majors at age 20. Cecchini and Nimmo made substantial jumps in the age 20 seasons (and I believe both had injury issues); Dom Smith was slow, level by level, but that was most likely because of his lack of power. Dilson Herrera went from A+ to MLB in the same season, half a season, with the Mets.

Ruben Tejada being a non-heralded GLOVE is the point. He wasn't expected to do much but play the field. Dilson Herrera again, played 116 games in the SAL, not really sure why he's an example?

Cecchini as I noted played a full-season in Kingsport (Vientos would be skipping Brooklyn) and then a full-season in Brooklyn and THEN a half season in the SAL. All due respect you aren't giving examples of players who skipped levels and then were also pushed half 1/2. Cecchini and Nimmo don't fit that, Smith doesn't fit that, Herrera doesn't fit that. Can players move quickly from A+ success to the bigs? Sure that happens sometimes but from Kingsport to St. Lucie in 1/2 a season, again you're looking at Lastings Milledge and I'll kick in Ruben Tejada though he was never considered a big prospect with future development ahead of him.

In comment 14290989 CMicks3110 said:

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also to your litmus test. I looked through the drafts of the last decade, and there were not even 10 teenage bats taken in the first 10 rounds of each draft. Mets focused almost solely on College Bats. So if your basing your argument solely on historical cases, its a very imperfect science that you have no basis to make, because the sample size is such that it makes it impossible to make that case. Further, this isa new front office with perhaps a more aggressive stance toward promotion.

Huh? We can absolutely use their top HS players over recent years. You often like to do this. Throw out kind hypotheticals that don't really fit the realistic likely outcome. The Mets 100% have taken big HS players and signed big IFA players over the past decade plus so we can track how they develop them. They do not top young players skip levels and then get bumped after half a season. That is not their history. All due respect, you shit on me for calling BS on the Bryce Harper "meeting" and I don't recall your mea culpa? Or are we still going with "well Dan you don't know everything, maybe the meeting happened but fell apart!"

providing mountains of evidence that suggest he's going to take time to develop and for whatever the reason you are choosing to ignore it?

"In his first full year as a third baseman down in the New York Mets minor league system, 18-year-old Mark Vientos struggled defensively. After playing mostly shortstop in 2017, the Mets wisely moved him to the hot corner for all of 2018.

Why is this wise? The Mets already have Amed Rosario in the major leagues cementing himself as one of the core members of the team. Ahead of Vientos on the prospect depth chart is yet another shortstop, the franchise�s number one minor leaguer, Andres Gimenez.

The results of this move were not promising on the defensive side of things. Vientos committed 13 errors in 133 opportunities. He finished the year with a poor .902 fielding percentage, showing early on in his professional career that perhaps a position changed is needed.

Expect the Mets to continue the Tim Tebow circus in 2019 and beyond
N
It�s certainly too soon to write Vientos off as a butcher with a glove. He has only played 68 games professionally at third base. In two years, he may be more than servicable.
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signature developmental mishaps that the organization has been much better off for not repeating since he was fired.

The "skip a step" can happen when a guy crushes AA and goes straight to the bigs. Miguel Cabrera did. Conforto did it. Others have done it. But there are still 4 levels between where Vientos has played and AA. It's just a matter of time and math that would indicate how unlikely it is for him to move up 6 levels in 2 years, even if he skips a couple.

Kenneth Lavin says:

In his first full summer as a professional, Vientos demonstrated considerable offensive potential and quelled a lot of the concerns scouts had about his ultimately defensive home. Vientos hit an impressive .287/.389/.489 in 262 PAs for Kingsport, while cranking 11 homers and walking in 14.1% of his plate appearances. This is especially impressive given the fact that he was one of the youngest players in the 2017 draft class, and played the entire season as an 18-year-old. While 2018 was a mostly positive year for the youngster, some big questions in his skillset remain. His swing is very long and has a tendency to be kind of stiff, which wasn�t a problem against rookie ball pitching, as evidenced by his 16.4 K% in the Appalachian League this past season, but may prove to be a bigger issue against better arms down the road. Despite the long swing, or perhaps because of it, Vientos has already demonstrated considerable power that he can get to in games. He isn�t likely to be a great fielder at third, but I think a lot of the concerns about his body moving him to left field or first base are a bit overblown at present. This upcoming season should prove to be the first real test of Vientos� young career, as I expect him to start 2019 in full-season ball with the Columbia Fireflies.

Dykstra

If Vientos can become adequate at third -- and he's got the above-average arm to make that happen -- that could be the next building block in a potential bid to become the next Mets player to be named one of MLB.com's Top 100 Prospects. Vientos is expected to be challenged with an assignment to Class A Columbia to begin 2019, and he's likely to be one of the South Atlantic League's youngest position players (19) come April. Given the way 2018 ended, Vientos thinks he's ready to prove he should be known for more than his youth.

this makes it sound like I don't like Vientos when in fact I argued on NYFS he had a shot to be the #1 prospect in the system at this time next year. That being said he's going to be insanely young for the SAL and has a long swing and defensive concerns. He's almost certainly going to be a slow burn type. If he moves fast the "fast" will begin in 2020 with movement between A+, AA etc

light up the minors, hence no crazy jumps. I am rather high on Veintos, but even for those who dont think he will realize it, he is probably the highest ceiling teenage bat we have had via draft (Outside of Kelenic grrrrrrr) in the last 20 years.

Listen is he likely to crush it with no growing pains - no, but if he does they will push him forward at the end of June regardless of his defensive prowess. They simply dont hold back mature bats becuase of defensive concerns, teams hope they can get taht straightened out in the high minors while they salivate over the offensive potential.

Devin Mesoraco will earn $1.75 million if he makes #Mets roster and can earn total of $2 million if he plays 100 games.


Why is this notable? Because... Mesoraco at 1.75 million + releasing TDA would save the Mets the Mets roughly 2 million dollars which might help bring in a Buchholz.


I'd certainly take Mesoraco + Buchholz (and say + 1-2 million) over just TDA.

on June 15th but also leads the league in errors, do you really think they wouldnt push him forward?

trade value?

With the dearth of caching in MLB, I wonder if maybe he'd be able to get a BP arm.

either way I agree, Mesoraco + Buchholz > TDA

In comment 14291019 bhill410 said:

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on June 15th but also leads the league in errors, do you really think they wouldnt push him forward?

.950 slugging? I mean you're asking a question that all due respect is absurd. The league leader in major league baseball slugged .640. So if you're point is he's out of this world amazing then sure. But if he did that he'd be the top prospect in all of baseball sight unseen. Joey Gallo has 80 power and highest he ever slugged was .660. The league leader in the SAL slugged .579.

is he can hit very well for 1/2 a season and they will almost certainly leave him in Savannah. Not to mention he's a Florida kid with some maturity concerns in the past. Highly doubt they want him in Florida before they have to. If he hits like a top 10 prospect in baseball that obviously changes time lines. That would be true of 100% of players in any system however.

acknowledging he may be awful but the case for Clay-
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may have to can Kapler, this is getting ugly
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I'm not saying you're wrong or that you dislike Vientos. And by the way, I don't recall the conversation about Harper that we might have had a while back, so if I said the meeting wasn't BS and it was BS, then I will gracefully offer my apologies. But we both probably don't know for sure. I'm guessing it was just a meeting with Boras that was spun such a way.

As for these hypotheticals I throw out there, I do so as a reminder that there are things we cannot know, and to contextualize when you're making your analysis. You do provide a lot of evidence in your posts that support your theory of the case. But you also ignore outliers.

The issue i have with your arguments sometimes, is that you speak with an authority, a degree of certainty, that you or anyone outside the Mets organization do not have the knowledge to possess.

So using your collection of players you identified, and inserting them into the following logic you developed:

1. Teenage Player is drafted in season X
2. Teenage Player in season X+1 skips Rookie Ball and Begins in low A
3. Teenage Player in season X+! is promoted from low A to High A in season x+1

You're saying there are only 2 instances you can think of. Lastings Milledge and Tejada. The problem with your analysis is that there have been so few high school bats drafted in the top 10 rounds in the last 10 years. Lets review:

Year Player Pos RD
2008 Javier Rodrqiuez OF 4 Non Prospect
2009 Darrell Cecliani OF 3 Non Prospect
2011 Brandon Nimmo OF 1 Prospect
2012 Gavin Cecchini IF 1 Prospect
2012 Brandon Kaupe 2B 4 Non Prospect
2012 Tomas Nido C 8 Non Prospect
2013 Dominic Smith 1B 1 Prospect
2013 Luis Guillmore SS 10 Non Prospect
2014 Milton Ramos SS 2 Non Prospect
2014 Dash Winningham 1B 8 Non Prospect
2015 Desmond Lindsay OF 2 Prospect
2017 Mark Vientos 3B 2 Prospect

That's 12 players. Most of who were non-prospects, or not elite prospects.

I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just saying that you speak to - the maybe 10/20% chance of this achievement - as almost a certainty to not happen.

I think in your writing style, you leave little wiggle room for what could be possible. And data is so small that your theories aren't demonstrable truths.

Yea not saying anyone is slugging that anytime soon.

like Mesoraco. At this point I think it's fairly obvious they traded Plawecki over TDA purely bc he had value and TDA didn't. They are bringing TDA to camp bc there's very little reason not to. Someone could get hurt, etc. Had his full salary been guaranteed he likely wouldn't have even been tendered.

Whether he makes it through camp or not, who knows, because Dan's math is 100% accurate and every team including the Mets would probably agree with it. Mesoraco (or similar player) + a few million to spend on one of the many pitchers still available is a much better use of resources than rehabbing TDA and having him occupy a spot on the 40 man.

was curious, the highest slugging% ever posted (that I can find) was that legendary 72 homer season by Joe Bauman

.400/.535/.916, at 32 years old lol

But also before my time I think I found the greatest minor league season I've ever seen 1978 Gary Redus .462/.559/.787, 17 homers 42/48 SB's, 62 walks 31 k's.. WTF

Minor league deal.

?

Espinosa can be viewed as SS depth (they aren't going to rush up Gimenez if Rosario gets hurt) and Lowrie is really poor by the numbers at SS but this doesn't speak well to their thoughts on Guillorme.

and never really was. He is a poor poor man's rey ordonez, and ordonez was not exactly a great player

Where we are trying to shed 2 million to put that towards X. There likely is still money available for smaller type additions so if we aren�t in on a guy like Bucholtz (who I like) it�s probably because Eilland feels Vargas turned it around in the second half and is just as worthy of a gamble as many other options out there. Not saying it�s right or wrong... just think there�s more to it than �money�.

Same thing with the pen. You have 6 spots close to a lock if Dowdy shows anything in the spring so that leaves one spot (Avilan has actually been a good Loogy over the last few years and is only 29) so if you want him that makes 7. That leaves no room for any surprises from the non roster guys, none of the younger AAA arms to impress. All that�s fine, but there isn�t a lot of room and the season is so long you might want to leave a spot or two to fudge with.

has likely Dilson Herrera, Espinosa, Guillorme, (Gimenez reportedly is opening in Bing) David Thompson, Alcantara... Alonso will be the 1b to open. Guess Dom in LF... Tebow lol in RF

Rajai Davis and Gregor Blanco

In comment 14291093 ZGiants98 said:

Quote:

Where we are trying to shed 2 million to put that towards X. There likely is still money available for smaller type additions so if we aren�t in on a guy like Bucholtz (who I like) it�s probably because Eilland feels Vargas turned it around in the second half and is just as worthy of a gamble as many other options out there. Not saying it�s right or wrong... just think there�s more to it than �money�. Same thing with the pen. You have 6 spots close to a lock if Dowdy shows anything in the spring so that leaves one spot (Avilan has actually been a good Loogy over the last few years and is only 29) so if you want him that makes 7. That leaves no room for any surprises from the non roster guys, none of the younger AAA arms to impress. All that�s fine, but there isn�t a lot of room and the season is so long you might want to leave a spot or two to fudge with.

Eiland had Vargas second half in KC 2017 (awful) and first half this year too so for a full year he didn't "turn it around". The narrative was Eiland would fix him and through 12 starts he had an... 8.75 era. To rely on him is wacko.

Mesoraco.

roster could be a collection of the worst ML players of the last half decade.

In comment 14291096 CMicks3110 said:

Quote:

Rajai Davis and Gregor Blanco

Rajai has an opt out and will likely use it if he doesn't make the team. Liriano can opt out to Asia as well. Blanco has a 6/1 opt out.

does not need to be added to the 40 man until post 2020 season so you won't see him in 2019 unless he's incredible. They won't just bring him up for a week or 2 or a random Sept callup.

Gimenez will not be up, unless there is a major injury to Rosario

In comment 14291105 CMicks3110 said:

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Gimenez will not be up, unless there is a major injury to Rosario

I'm not saying there is "no chance" but he's not MLB "depth" or bench help or a guy they call up if Rosario or Cano goes the DL for 2 weeks, er sorry "IL". Because he doesn't need to be added it'll take a major injury or him really mashing to the point they can't resist. Otherwise ST 2020 is when he gets his shot (if hes still here) or Rosario isn't moved.

if Gimenez is a trade chip, what caliber of player do you think he could return us? If he gets off to a good start this year.

In comment 14291097 DanMetroMan said:

Quote:

In comment 14291093 ZGiants98 said: Quote: Where we are trying to shed 2 million to put that towards X. There likely is still money available for smaller type additions so if we aren�t in on a guy like Bucholtz (who I like) it�s probably because Eilland feels Vargas turned it around in the second half and is just as worthy of a gamble as many other options out there. Not saying it�s right or wrong... just think there�s more to it than �money�. Same thing with the pen. You have 6 spots close to a lock if Dowdy shows anything in the spring so that leaves one spot (Avilan has actually been a good Loogy over the last few years and is only 29) so if you want him that makes 7. That leaves no room for any surprises from the non roster guys, none of the younger AAA arms to impress. All that�s fine, but there isn�t a lot of room and the season is so long you might want to leave a spot or two to fudge with. Eiland had Vargas second half in KC 2017 (awful) and first half this year too so for a full year he didn't "turn it around". The narrative was Eiland would fix him and through 12 starts he had an... 8.75 era. To rely on him is wacko.

Not trying to argue that but Vargas gave up 8 runs without retiring an out which blew his early season numbers up. He got lit up like a Christmas tree over his first 3-4 starts. 5th start through the end of the years he�s right at career averages (4.4ish ERA). Second half his era is in the 3s. I actually don�t even think Eilland helped him... more likely Vargas just finally settled in. Early he was coming off an injury, no ST, pitched in front of a net for a quick rehab, they skipped starts, it was really odd.

To be clear I�m not a Vargas fan. If we can upgrade? Great. Just trying to think through their logic.

should be on the team for his mustache.

if this is an indication of what a playoff beard could look like for him, get him on the team, have him be the bullpen catcher

In comment 14291112 CMicks3110 said:

Quote:

if Gimenez is a trade chip, what caliber of player do you think he could return us? If he gets off to a good start this year.

Really depends almost fully how he looks vs. upper level pitching. There is a perception he's "limited" physically but at times he has shown an ability to drive the ball (that being said Guillorme at times has too). Gimenez was "okay" in Bing in his first look, ugly AFL so his stock is likely "somewhat" down.

But that means nothing in the sense if he hits in Bing he's a top 5ish SS prospect in baseball. If he doesn't hit then obviously his trade value is very limited. Good glove, doesn't hit no longer really plays. If he hits he likely can headline a "major" deal (along with other talent).
Right now his value wouldn't really be enough for it to make sense. He's a top 40ish prospect in the game. Phillies had to add a good young catcher and a 3rd piece a top 15-ish prospect in the game for good, not amazing Realmuto.

going down the Vargas path again but first 12 starts he pitched more than 5 innings... 0 times... 0. So this isn't "one bad start", he reached the 5th inning 5/12 starts...

In comment 14291095 DanMetroMan said:

Quote:

has likely Dilson Herrera, Espinosa, Guillorme, (Gimenez reportedly is opening in Bing) David Thompson, Alcantara... Alonso will be the 1b to open. Guess Dom in LF... Tebow lol in RF

I could see JD Davis there too at 3B to start. I hope that�s what they do to get him some consistent atbats. I�d rather see TJ Rivera and Dom on the bench in the minors for a few weeks until we know Davis and Alonso are 100% ready.

�Majors�

shitting on Gimenez at all but I didn't recall he showed so little power in AA, such a small sample size but the idea he was headed to Syracuse seems silly anyway.

a poor man's Rafael Furcal in my opinion. If he can maintain an OPS of around .750 with stellar defense, that's a good player. Rosario's offensive upside should be considerably higher, whether he reaches it is anyone's guess.

Sounds like no DL in the NL for at least the next 3 seasons.

In comment 14291171 DanMetroMan said:

Quote:

Sounds like no DL in the NL for at least the next 3 seasons.

So the Mets will have to keep all of their injured guys on the 25? That's crazy Dan!

In comment 14291204 Metnut said:

Quote:

In comment 14291171 DanMetroMan said: Quote: Sounds like no DL in the NL for at least the next 3 seasons. So the Mets will have to keep all of their injured guys on the 25? That's crazy Dan!

haha DH

To give up that bargaining chip pre cba

was aware of what we more recently heard - that the DH rule is coming to the NL and that factored into his trading for Cano.

In comment 14291212 Ira said:

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was aware of what we more recently heard - that the DH rule is coming to the NL and that factored into his trading for Cano.

I read it's at least 3 years away, he'd look like a genius if it happened, especially sooner and it gave the Mets a way to get Alonso, Cano, McNeil and Lowrie in the lineup at the same time (assuming they were all playing well), but I think there is a better chance it is a coincidence.

And it's still not done, I'll believe it when I see it.

But the universal DH is the best carrot MLB can give to appease the players. There is no way that is done before conclusion of cba

In comment 14291212 Ira said:

Quote:

was aware of what we more recently heard - that the DH rule is coming to the NL and that factored into his trading for Cano.

Doubtful. Manfred said it won't be happening in 2019 and likely won't until post 2021.

The absolute GREATEST time of the year for baseball!!!! Love it, let�s get rolling.

prospects up on the Athletic today.

Alonso #48
Giminez #51
Kelenic #67

Same way Murphy did when he was coming up through the system. He is very serious about the game, and I love those types.

In comment 14293397 Shecky said:

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Same way Murphy did when he was coming up through the system. He is very serious about the game, and I love those types.

I love the creativity acquiring that type of guy. Basically other teams pre-2018 Brandon Nimmo's. My only confusion with the pickup is that those types kind of need regular MLB at bats to take the next step and I'm not positive where those are going to come from for him. Hopefully they let him start over Frazier at 1B while Alonso is in the minors.

Andrew Church attempting a comeback per Jacob Resnick

2017 +2018 he pitched 201 innings and allowed 254 hits walking 41.. only 1 start in the PCL so there wasn't THAT excuse

-Cameron Planck not yet retiring despite rumors to the contrary claims he's healthy. 1 million dollars spent.. .2 innings thrown so far.. drafted in 2016, yeesh

These guys are literally like you and I. Normal, everyday people. Think about some people you�ve worked with throughout your life, or went to school with. Some people are obsessed, live and breath X. They don�t WANT it, they will not accept failure. They don�t just want to achieve making it there, they view getting there as step one not the destination.

Planck is a really, really good dude. Talented dude. But I don�t think he HAS to have it. Start a family, and be happy is something more important to a lot more players than you�d ever imagine.

In comment 14293267 Metnut said:

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prospects up on the Athletic today. Alonso #48 Giminez #51 Kelenic #67

Happy for John that he found another place to go as he is a really nice guy even when we have disagreed about rankings. Disappointed that I am going to have to pay to continue reading him.

too many IF for Syracuse. I wonder what happens there. I suspect some will be released and some AAA. I mean where does Cecchini play now? Tough to identify.