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Giants and the future QB

mdthedream : 2/4/2019 11:22 am
I have to say after watching this weeks Superbowl and last weeks AFC championship I think with today's rules you are better off with a mobile QB that can extend plays like Mahomes over the pocket QB like Brady/Goff. Esp with the you can't hit a QB rules in today's game. That said its time for the Giants to turn to a much more mobile QB in Murray or Haskins.
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Can you..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 2/4/2019 12:51 pm : link
please tell us how the rules favor a mobile QB?

Don't they actually do more to protect the pocket QB? You know, the one where brushing the helmet area or hitting low draws a flag?

I'm sure as you are mulling over how Brady is being impacted by these new rules you have a crystal clear explanation.
Tom  
mdthedream : 2/4/2019 12:52 pm : link
makes his Oline look better as well because he moves into the right holes and pockets that form.
I think teams have come to believe  
JonC : 2/4/2019 12:52 pm : link
creating the latter situation is more feasible, due to how difficult it is to find the pure pocket passer. RPO, read-option, play action is all used to create misdirection and protect an offense from its weaknesses.
Yup....  
ZogZerg : 2/4/2019 12:53 pm : link
Quote:

But when somebody thinks Brady is just along for the ride, it is hard to convince them of anything logical.

Simple  
mdthedream : 2/4/2019 12:54 pm : link
back in the day they would have killed QBs that move out of the pocket. Plus the wrs cant be held anymore either so if you extend plays there is a lot better chances for bigger plays. Tom is very good at making time in the pocket. Eli is not at all good at it.
It is more of a speed game  
mdthedream : 2/4/2019 12:57 pm : link
and scoring a lot of points. I feel caused by the rules and shitty fantasy football.
What is preventing..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 2/4/2019 12:57 pm : link
people from killing QB's out of the pocket now?

You really don't sound like you have much of a grasp of the game.
They get  
mdthedream : 2/4/2019 12:59 pm : link
flagged all day look at the QB from Carolina and the calls he gets if you hit him out of the pocket.
RE: They get  
YAJ2112 : 2/4/2019 1:00 pm : link
In comment 14286926 mdthedream said:
Quote:
flagged all day look at the QB from Carolina and the calls he gets if you hit him out of the pocket.


You mean the one who constantly complains (and rightfully so) that he doesn't get any calls on plays out of the pocket?
The  
mdthedream : 2/4/2019 1:00 pm : link
league totally protects QBs in or out of the pocket. The role that Rodgers caused alone.
The  
mdthedream : 2/4/2019 1:01 pm : link
game is becoming more like flag football.
RE: They get  
Bill L : 2/4/2019 1:01 pm : link
In comment 14286926 mdthedream said:
Quote:
flagged all day look at the QB from Carolina and the calls he gets if you hit him out of the pocket.


I think you're more apt to get the call if you are (inappropriately) hit in the pocket than if you like like a RB outside of it.
rightfully so  
mdthedream : 2/4/2019 1:02 pm : link
he is like 260lbs.
As a WIS alum and watching Wilson extend plays  
Jim in Forest Hills : 2/4/2019 1:03 pm : link
it is REALLY nice to have a smart mobile QB.

But in reality the Giants just need a good QB, mobile or not. Being mobile would be great, but can't be the defining characteristic.
Oh yes  
mdthedream : 2/4/2019 1:03 pm : link
I agree. I am talking mobil as in moving right to left and making throwing plays.
At the rate you consistently use "mobil"  
Bill L : 2/4/2019 1:07 pm : link
I keep thinking we want a QB who can turn on the gas.
RE: I think fans conflate concepts  
DonQuixote : 2/4/2019 1:07 pm : link
In comment 14286913 JonC said:
Quote:
You will still be successful in the modern NFL with a pure pocket passer. You have to build an OL to protect him so he can work to his strengths. See : Tom Brady and his six rings.

The mobile QB covers up some weaknesses up front, and makes it tougher for the defense to contain him and shorten plays.


I agree with this.

To some extent, a really mobile QB is another player on the field to defend, not just someone that slings the ball, or allows you to maybe allocate draft resources differently, but it has a cost too.
sorry  
mdthedream : 2/4/2019 1:12 pm : link
mobile :)
The cost of having a mobile QB and the advantages that come with it  
Jimmy Googs : 2/4/2019 1:17 pm : link
means you better have two QBs for certain to get thru a season...

Eli represents what has been the stereotypical  
joeinpa : 2/4/2019 1:26 pm : link
Model for the success of quarterbacks in the NFL for many years.

A guy who will stand tall in the pocket, scan the field, and make all the throws.

This has not really changed in that it is still the prerequisite for success.

But this quarterback debate has a faction that treats mobility as if it is a plague, when in fact, given the aforementioned ability to throw from the pocket, and mobility to extend plays is desirable.
Who are the great pocket passers coming out of college?  
Go Terps : 2/4/2019 1:27 pm : link
The best pocket passers in the NFL were in college 15-20 years ago. The most recent top pocket passer I can think of off the top of my head is Andrew Luck, and he's already been in the league 6 years.

I can't say for certain to what extent, but the game has changed. Shit, it has changed since the Giants last won the Super Bowl. Here's a stat to make you think...

Since the Giants won Super Bowl 46, Eli has thrown 4,051 passes...that's more passes than Terry Bradshaw threw in his entire career.

Because of Eli's health and longevity the Giants haven't had to do much beyond dipping their toe in the QB water. They are entering a world that is very different than the one they encountered in 2004.
Again..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 2/4/2019 1:51 pm : link
how does this help mobile QB's??

Quote:
The
mdthedream : 1:01 pm : link : reply
game is becoming more like flag football.


You reference Cam Newton getting all the calls. YAJ correctly pointed out that Cam has actually complained that he isn't getting calls. And once he leaves the pocket, he's getting hit hard.

I still don't know what rules are favoring running QB's vs. pocket ones, and apparently you don't either.
It is pretty clear  
Mike from Ohio : 2/4/2019 2:10 pm : link
mdthedream hasn't really thought much about what he posts. This thread is a study in ignoring facts to make a point.

The rules passed in the last few years protecting QBs are almost EXCLUSIVELY to protect QBs while in the pocket. Once they leave the pocket they are runners and the same protections no longer apply.

But please, go on about how a "mobil" QB (defined as one who can move right to left either slowly or quickly) takes advantage of these new rules.
RE: At the rate you consistently use  
BleedBlue : 2/4/2019 2:31 pm : link
In comment 14286950 Bill L said:
Quote:
I keep thinking we want a QB who can turn on the gas.



LMFAO. i was looking for this comment, was going to say the same thing
If this or is going to continue  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 2/4/2019 2:54 pm : link
Being stupid and hire wco coaches, then yes we need a mobile QB. Funny to see Bellicheat going back to power I. We're always a step behind.
I'll admit to not being any type of expert on these things...  
Hades07 : 2/4/2019 3:01 pm : link
...but Haskins does not look very mobile to me. Maybe can move a bit better than Eli, but I don't see why so many people describe him as mobile. What am I missing?
RE: I'll admit to not being any type of expert on these things...  
DonQuixote : 2/4/2019 3:14 pm : link
In comment 14287129 Hades07 said:
Quote:
...but Haskins does not look very mobile to me. Maybe can move a bit better than Eli, but I don't see why so many people describe him as mobile. What am I missing?


Does not look mobile to me either. This is not a knock; he looks sluggish outside the pocket, and so could reasonably be called a pocket QB.
RE: RE: I'll admit to not being any type of expert on these things...  
Hades07 : 2/4/2019 3:23 pm : link
In comment 14287146 DonQuixote said:
Quote:
In comment 14287129 Hades07 said:


Quote:


...but Haskins does not look very mobile to me. Maybe can move a bit better than Eli, but I don't see why so many people describe him as mobile. What am I missing?



Does not look mobile to me either. This is not a knock; he looks sluggish outside the pocket, and so could reasonably be called a pocket QB.
With the little I've seen of him, his accuracy seems to get shaky when throwing outside the numbers. Is that just a function of the small sample size of what I have seen or is that a common trend with him?
RE: Seems to me  
Jay in Toronto : 2/4/2019 4:10 pm : link
In comment 14286755 tony71 said:
Quote:
Everyone keeps saying how much we NEED a mobile quarter back, yet how many actually have won a Super Bowl compared to pocket passers in the past 10-15 years?


Everybody remembers Tyree's catch against the helmet, but I remember Eli's unbelievable Houdini-level escapability that made it all possible.
there aren't any traditional pocket passers  
BigBlueCane : 2/4/2019 4:49 pm : link
in college anymore. That style of offense has been eclipsed by the Spread.

Not that Giants scouting staff will notice.
I donít think the rules protect a mobile QB from getting hammered.  
Ivan15 : 2/4/2019 5:20 pm : link
I donít think I have ever seen a QB give himself up when moving outside the pocket, except maybe Favre vs Strahan.
RE: there aren't any traditional pocket passers  
Go Terps : 2/4/2019 5:40 pm : link
In comment 14287306 BigBlueCane said:
Quote:
in college anymore. That style of offense has been eclipsed by the Spread.

Not that Giants scouting staff will notice.


That's the concern, isn't it? If the Giants are looking for Eli 2.0 they're going to have a hard time. Actually, looking at Gettleman's resume you see he has next to no experience being on in an organization that is drafting a franchise QB:

-------------------------------------------------------------------
1986-1993, Scout, Buffalo Bills

1986: Round 12, Brian McClure, Bowling Green
1992: Round 12, Matt Rodgers, Iowa

1994-1997, Scout, Denver Broncos

1996: Round 4, Jeff Lewis, Northern Iowa

1998-2012, Pro Personnel Director, NY Giants

2001: Round 4, Jesse Palmer, Florida
2004: Round 1, Phil Rivers, NC State (traded for Eli)
2008: Round 6, Andre Woodson, Kentucky
2009: Round 5, Rhett Bomar, Sam Houston St.

2013-2016, GM, Carolina Panthers

None

2018-Present, GM, NY Giants

2018: Round 4, Kyle Lauletta, Richmond

----------------------------------------------------------------

Obviously Gettleman can't be blamed for circumstances lining up the way they have...in his career he's usually been with an organization that had a well established QB - Kelly, Elway, Eli, and Newton.

But here he is now on the verge of picking Eli's successor, and his only experience of even being around that type of process was getting Eli himself 15 years ago.

It begs the question: how much is that experience going to inform his decision making here? I think it's also fair to ask: is Accorsi going to get to weigh in?

Odd time for a thread like this  
WillVAB : 2/4/2019 8:02 pm : link
When none of the BBI golden boy mobile QBs sniffed the SB trophy.

A mobile QB doesnít provide a competitive advantage at all. At best youíre treading water with 2/3rds of the rest of the league.
RE: Odd time for a thread like this  
Go Terps : 2/4/2019 8:12 pm : link
In comment 14287473 WillVAB said:
Quote:
When none of the BBI golden boy mobile QBs sniffed the SB trophy.

A mobile QB doesnít provide a competitive advantage at all. At best youíre treading water with 2/3rds of the rest of the league.


Look at the last four QBs standing. Mahomes is a great athlete and definitely mobile. We're learning that Goff might just be the product of his offense. The other two QBs are over 40 years old.

You want to draft the next Brady or Brees? Me too. Where are they?
Another thread of mixed  
section125 : 2/4/2019 8:45 pm : link
truthfulness.
Once a QB starts to run, he is a RB and not protected by the strict QB rules.

Haskins is actually pretty slow,imv - in the Rose Bowl I thought I was watching early Eli film when he was chased out of the pocket. But that is not bad. QBs generally live longer when they stay in the pocket. But Terps is right, the conventional drop back passer does not exist any longer except in memory. But a guy like Darnold would be the new prototype - a pocket passer with escapability.

Tom Brady is mobile? WTF are you smoking. He's about as mobile as Eli.

Kyler Murray is a great kid. Interesting candidate. I'll wait to see the combine numbers, but I'm not sure that body will stand up to the rigors of the NFL.
RE: RE: Odd time for a thread like this  
WillVAB : 2/4/2019 10:16 pm : link
In comment 14287481 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 14287473 WillVAB said:


Quote:


When none of the BBI golden boy mobile QBs sniffed the SB trophy.

A mobile QB doesnít provide a competitive advantage at all. At best youíre treading water with 2/3rds of the rest of the league.



Look at the last four QBs standing. Mahomes is a great athlete and definitely mobile. We're learning that Goff might just be the product of his offense. The other two QBs are over 40 years old.

You want to draft the next Brady or Brees? Me too. Where are they?


If it was that easy to spot Brees and Brady wouldnít have lasted as long as they did in the draft.

I think the play is to place a higher value on certain attributes in a QB coming out that the rest of the league doesnít seem to value as much now. Instead of being wowed by athleticism and arm strength, emphasize accuracy and system versatility/intelligence. Peyton and Brees didnít have canons.

Buying into the hype on a flavor of the year mobile QB does nothing for this franchise. Maybe they get a few playoff appearances if things break right, but the league is littered with QBs who fit that mold. Thereís no competitive advantage going that route outside of if your QB is one of the lucky ones who doesnít get hurt.

Dak Prescott and the 10 or so QBs like him donít inspire any confidence in one or multiple SB runs. I want the next Giants QB to have that upside ó not be a face in the crowd.
Will  
Go Terps : 2/5/2019 12:07 am : link
Fair enough. Who's that quarterback?
Tom  
mdthedream : 2/5/2019 6:48 am : link
is very Mobile avoids sacks by moving in the pocket. Eli moves right into the sack and cannot get out of his own way anymore. They are not close when talking about mobility. I am not talking about just running Mahomes doesn't really run he moves and extends plays.
Your definition..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 2/5/2019 8:44 am : link
of mobility is pretty warped.

One of Eli's signature plays as a QB is where he avoided pressure.
RE: Will  
WillVAB : 2/5/2019 8:51 am : link
In comment 14287586 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Fair enough. Who's that quarterback?


The guy who seems to fit that mold is Jake Fromm.
RE: Tom  
section125 : 2/5/2019 8:54 am : link
In comment 14287607 mdthedream said:
Quote:
is very Mobile avoids sacks by moving in the pocket. Eli moves right into the sack and cannot get out of his own way anymore. They are not close when talking about mobility. I am not talking about just running Mahomes doesn't really run he moves and extends plays.


That is nonsense. Mobile means escaping the pocket and threatening the defense with their legs.
If Eli had Brady's pocket, he'd be just as good. Eli's line collapses up the middle and the back of the pocket closes behind him. He has no place to go. And when the Giants had Eli roll, he looked very good doing so.
I guarantee neither Eli or Tom would ever or have ever been mistaken for Aaron Rodgers...
Look  
mdthedream : 2/5/2019 9:14 am : link
I watch the damn Pats every week seeing I life in New England and hate the Pats. Tom is Mobile and avoids the rush better than anyone. The guy can read his blocks and just avoids sacks. He is the best at that. He is mobile not a mahomes mobile but he does move in the pocket. Eli just doesn't anymore at all.
Me thinks a poster  
dep026 : 2/5/2019 9:19 am : link
has no clue what mobility in pocket really means.

Its tough to navigate within a pocket where there is/was NONE.
You watch..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 2/5/2019 9:26 am : link
the Pats each week, yet made the asinine comment above that Brady is basically just a product of the Pats system and they aren't winning SB's just because of him.

You also haven't explained what rules are favoring mobile QB's. Wouldn't watching football each week lend itself to at least knowing that?
I want mobile, but not running  
PatersonPlank : 2/5/2019 9:29 am : link
I want a pocket passer, with an accurate big arm, who can bye time by moving around in the pocket. I don't want a running guy (RG3, Murray, etc.). IMO Mahomes does this really well, as do Brady, Rodgers, old Eli, Big Ben, and Luck.
RPO specialist  
ArcadeSlumlord : 2/5/2019 10:44 am : link
is what I want.
RE: RE: Will  
Go Terps : 2/5/2019 2:23 pm : link
In comment 14287669 WillVAB said:
Quote:
In comment 14287586 Go Terps said:


Quote:


Fair enough. Who's that quarterback?



The guy who seems to fit that mold is Jake Fromm.


That's fine by me. The only guy in this or the next couple drafts I'd take over him is Lawrence.

And there are a couple traditional pocket QBs in this draft that I'd consider in round 2. Stidham and Rypien are two guys that I'd be happy to land in the second round. Both played in and won a ton of games.

But I think we should be open to thinking outside the box a bit also. Tyree Jackson has got great tools...size, arm strength, and mobility...isn't the ability to mold those tools part of the reason we hired Shurmur? If Jackson is there for us in round 4 or 5 it seems like a low risk/high reward play.
RE: RE: Tom  
bw in dc : 2/5/2019 4:20 pm : link
In comment 14287671 section125 said:
Quote:

That is nonsense. Mobile means escaping the pocket and threatening the defense with their legs.
If Eli had Brady's pocket, he'd be just as good. Eli's line collapses up the middle and the back of the pocket closes behind him. He has no place to go. And when the Giants had Eli roll, he looked very good doing so.
I guarantee neither Eli or Tom would ever or have ever been mistaken for Aaron Rodgers...


Eli would be just as good as Brady? Hmmmm.

Well, why stop there. Should we throw in Unitas, Bradshaw, Montana, Young, Peyton, Staubach, etc while we're at it?
RE: RE: RE: Will  
WillVAB : 2/5/2019 5:12 pm : link
In comment 14288115 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 14287669 WillVAB said:


Quote:


In comment 14287586 Go Terps said:


Quote:


Fair enough. Who's that quarterback?



The guy who seems to fit that mold is Jake Fromm.



That's fine by me. The only guy in this or the next couple drafts I'd take over him is Lawrence.

And there are a couple traditional pocket QBs in this draft that I'd consider in round 2. Stidham and Rypien are two guys that I'd be happy to land in the second round. Both played in and won a ton of games.

But I think we should be open to thinking outside the box a bit also. Tyree Jackson has got great tools...size, arm strength, and mobility...isn't the ability to mold those tools part of the reason we hired Shurmur? If Jackson is there for us in round 4 or 5 it seems like a low risk/high reward play.


In theory youíre right, but weíve seen the Giants piss away too many mid to late round picks on QBs, with the same mindset.

Iíd rather the Giants use those picks on prospects that have a better shot at being elite at their position in the pros.

Iím hoping the Giants wait for Fromm. I get the feeling he wil slip in the draft because he doesnít have great measurables or athleticism ó and I think a lot of teams will regret passing on him.
bw  
mdthedream : 2/5/2019 8:26 pm : link
I agree with with you on that. No reason to even respond after that.
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