Disclaimer: Never saw him play..
I’m going off physical attributes and various reporting here and elsewhere.
Yes, finding a lane with a 7-8 foot rusher in your face is difficult and a negative. But I would think Shurmur could use his ability to move, to scramble and occasionally run it, to a great advantage, especially with the O tools available to him.
I’m mostly writing this because I was trying to recall which smaller QBs got hurt or couldn’t be productive at the NFL level, so this is where I can use your help here.
Tarkenton was 5’ 10” if that, regardless of what he was listed at. Flutie was reasonably effective after Canada, but from what I’m hearing, nowhere the talent Murray is. Mike Vick whose arm was strong but inaccurate or erratic, had a pretty good to good career. Save for some back issues, he performed rather well, at least more than from time to time.
So what other small QBs had their height get in the way of success? QBs, that is, who had anywhere near the talent coming out of college that Murray purportedly has?
its durability
I'm afraid he's going to be RG3-2
All the same questions for any QB during scouting season, including Haskins.
Look at Edleman, he was a QB at Kent St and set all kinds of records, comes to the NFL and is a WR. There are numerous other college QB's like Eric Crouch who the Rams wanted to switch to WR and never panned out.
its durability
I'm afraid he's going to be RG3-2
Chris, iirc, wasn’t his initial injury a fluke which was further exacerbated by Shanahan letting him return to the playoff game when he clearly should not have been sent back in? That basically was his career
The Redskins went all in for RGIII, have a playoff season, then he's out and they go back to being mediocre.
That's the reality you'll face if you draft Murray.
People like to call it a shot at greatness when you pick him, but the NFL has shown time and again that the supposed "safe pick" of a pocket QB wins more often.
And that's a separate debate on why taking a pocket passer is "safe". It really isn't, but the narrative still exists.
Its a flawed stats because for the last, atleast 15+ years of that teams were primarily investing in pocket passers only. We are just now starting to see high picks going more frequently to more mobile QB's along with new systems to feature them.
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that stat won't hold true for the next 20 years. I'd rather be ahead of the curve than behind it.
its durability
I'm afraid he's going to be RG3-2
Why? RG3 had an injury history coming into the NFL, Kyler Murray does not that I'm aware of. He did hurt himself playing baseball at one point stealing a base but that wasn't significant as I recall and I don't recall and football injuries. He is also more well built than RG3 to my eyes.
Honestly if I was worried about anything with him, it's more about would he prefer baseball over football.... or how does his game translate to the NFL.
Not trying to be "right", just raising another angle to look at this.
People use the terms "risky" vs. "safe" less about the actual risk factor and more to justify their stance on a certain player.
I happen to think Barkley was a risky pick because the Giants took him even with many highly rated QB's on the board. Critics of the pick say that he was a safe pick and part of continuing the Giants "inside the box" thinking.
I actually looked at Flowers and Apple as being risky picks because they were forced and considered reaches. Others called them safe picks. The safe pick would be to take a player considered to have a low ceiling and high floor.
There really are few players at the top of the draft that you are gambling greatness on vs others to choose from. Odell Beckham had questions entering the draft just like Darius Heyward-Bey did. One of them ended up not overcoming those questions while the other has.
To me, if you are going to take a QB at #6, he can't have all the questions that Murray does, especially with so many holes on the roster. And even if he answers those questions, is his level of play going to be head and shoulders above teh player you draft without as many questions? Probably not.
I made a rhyme.
To me, it's more does he have Russell Wilsons type of character. He's got a lot more red flags or question marks that would need to be answered.
I don't see the resemblance either. RG3 already had knee injuries, played recklessly, wasn't as good of a passer, and was uncoachable.
Lots of digging needs to be done on Murray but I don't see RG3 as his comp at all from a play or risk standpoint. We also wouldn't be giving up picks to get Murray (unless it was a trade up back into the 1st which wouldn't be that big of a haul).
Good point, Phil
Drafting any player guarantees nothing, even in the top 10, 5, 3.
To my eyes, Murray jumps off the screen as a disruptive talent and would be #1 overall except for his size. So, how far does that make him drop? It might be down to us at 6 or much lower. Every draft choice is a risk, so that does not bother me.
I think it is important to point out that the Patriots have only drafted in the top ten twice in the last 20 years, and during that span they had five years (if I recall) where they had no first round picks at all. The Giants are not going to keel over if they take some risks here and there. In fact, the notion that somehow this years first round pick is make or break ... it just reflects how much team building needs to be done. There are no saviors.
No, my concern is that he will get hit and hurt and when he gets better, the outfield looks that much greener and safer.
I disagree completely. Patrick was being a jerk, he was harassing him to reveal things and make news on his show, and it was awkward. I thought Murray was a bit surprised how persistent Patrick was and how awkward it became. His agent helps figure out whether he will be at pro days and whatever, and he has no obligation to say one way or another to help Dan Patrick make news. That was all on Dan Patrick and once they went onto other topics Murray was just fine.
One of those "no-look" passes is going to come with a "didn't see" the defender as Mahomes gets drilled by nasty linebacker...
Can can throw from the pocket...
Where are you coming up with this assessment? This isn't Taysom Hill.
I actually think that is a no-small consideration and not just for Murray. We have had a luxury that almost no other team (besides SD) has had. The truth of the matter is, no matter who we bring in to replace Eli, we need to have 2, not 1 quality QB's if we want to be successful over the course of a season.
its durability
I'm afraid he's going to be RG3-2
I'm more concerned with commitment...to football.
its durability
I'm afraid he's going to be RG3-2
This.
I would say the same thing if you inserted Lock for Murray...I don't have a dog in the hunt, but I am not opposed to taking a flyer on Murray of that's what the pros think might work.
I don't think the combine will tell us anything we don't already know about his size. To a previous posters point, his hand size, velocity, and his drills will be monumental for him.
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He didn't even want to confirm he'd go to the combine or have a pro day. Put that with the other question marks and I don't see how you can consider him.
I disagree completely. Patrick was being a jerk, he was harassing him to reveal things and make news on his show, and it was awkward. I thought Murray was a bit surprised how persistent Patrick was and how awkward it became. His agent helps figure out whether he will be at pro days and whatever, and he has no obligation to say one way or another to help Dan Patrick make news. That was all on Dan Patrick and once they went onto other topics Murray was just fine.
That’s a load of bullshit. Patrick wasnt being a jerk. He was doing what he normally does, interview guests and ask probing questions. If Murray didn’t want to be asked the questions, he should have either declined to go on or said point blank he wouldn’t be answering any questions about it. Did Dan Patrick make him sound disinterested, aloof and plain boring? No, that’s on him, 100%.
Miller B/R: 2019 NFL Mock Draft: Matt Miller's Post-Super Bowl Predictions
6. New York Giants
“The Pick: Dwayne Haskins, QB, Ohio State
The New York Giants have to eventually move on from Eli Manning—or at least draft a viable young quarterback to take over in the near future. The NFL is buzzing right now about the result of the Kansas City Chiefs' plan to draft Patrick Mahomes and let him sit behind Alex Smith for a season. The Giants should follow that blueprint and strike now to get a quarterback of the future.
Dwayne Haskins might not be a trendy fit for the Giants because of his status as a one-year starter at Ohio State, but his talent speaks for itself. He has poise in the pocket that most new starters do not and has shown excellent arm talent and ball placement. Perhaps most encouraging was his development throughout the season, as he played his best football late in the year.
The Giants can't afford to pass on quarterbacks again in 2019; no matter how good the 2020 class looks, now is the time to get a quarterback to groom for the future.”
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2818393-2019-nfl-mock-draft-matt-millers-post-super-bowl-predictions
Marino The Draft Network: MARINO’S 2019 NFL MOCK DRAFT 5.0
“6. New York Giants: Dwayne Haskins, QB, Ohio State
Not sure if you’re aware or not but current Giants’ quarterback Eli Manning is 38 and New York passed on his successor in last year’s draft in favor of a running back with pick No. 2 overall. Well, that running back just earned NFL Offensive Rookie of the Year Honors and is primed to be one of the most dynamic and prolific weapons in the league for years to come. Now, New York finds itself picking in the top 10 and the need to identify its future at quarterback remains.
Completing 70 percent of his passes for 4,831 yards with 50 touchdowns and 8 interceptions, Haskins had a historically great season for a Big Ten quarterback in 2018. His ability to slot throws from the pocket to the dynamic Ohio State offensive weapons can transition to the NFL where Odell Beckham, Evan Engram, Sterling Shepard and Saquon Barkley would immediately be at his disposal. The Giants make sense for Haskins and I think it would be his best chance to reach his ceiling.”
At this point I defer to a professional scout(s) to make that determination. They are paid to do that.
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is the worry with Murray
its durability
I'm afraid he's going to be RG3-2
I'm more concerned with commitment...to football.
People forget the TEAM and Mgt did not handle the injury correctly by being short sighted ... the same thing happen with Grant Hill and the Pistons ... Had RG3 been allowed to heal properly his career take a different course.
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In comment 14286816 cjac said:
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is the worry with Murray
its durability
I'm afraid he's going to be RG3-2
I'm more concerned with commitment...to football.
People forget the TEAM and Mgt did not handle the injury correctly by being short sighted ... the same thing happen with Grant Hill and the Pistons ... Had RG3 been allowed to heal properly his career take a different course.
RG3 had a lot going against him. Throw on the pile bad movement patterns..
Valgus Knees and Why RG3's Career is At Risk - ( New Window )
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In comment 14286885 Jint Fan in Buc Land said:
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He didn't even want to confirm he'd go to the combine or have a pro day. Put that with the other question marks and I don't see how you can consider him.
I disagree completely. Patrick was being a jerk, he was harassing him to reveal things and make news on his show, and it was awkward. I thought Murray was a bit surprised how persistent Patrick was and how awkward it became. His agent helps figure out whether he will be at pro days and whatever, and he has no obligation to say one way or another to help Dan Patrick make news. That was all on Dan Patrick and once they went onto other topics Murray was just fine.
That’s a load of bullshit. Patrick wasnt being a jerk. He was doing what he normally does, interview guests and ask probing questions. If Murray didn’t want to be asked the questions, he should have either declined to go on or said point blank he wouldn’t be answering any questions about it. Did Dan Patrick make him sound disinterested, aloof and plain boring? No, that’s on him, 100%.
Murray isn't the one complaining though, fans seem bothered by it, though. He "dealt" with doing something he didn't want to do, I don't recall him bitching about how unfair Patrick was being.
Giants going forward should be Saquon-centric thinking. I would think a cerebral QB who can make good presnap reads would be better.
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In comment 14286885 Jint Fan in Buc Land said:
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He didn't even want to confirm he'd go to the combine or have a pro day. Put that with the other question marks and I don't see how you can consider him.
I disagree completely. Patrick was being a jerk, he was harassing him to reveal things and make news on his show, and it was awkward. I thought Murray was a bit surprised how persistent Patrick was and how awkward it became. His agent helps figure out whether he will be at pro days and whatever, and he has no obligation to say one way or another to help Dan Patrick make news. That was all on Dan Patrick and once they went onto other topics Murray was just fine.
That’s a load of bullshit. Patrick wasnt being a jerk. He was doing what he normally does, interview guests and ask probing questions. If Murray didn’t want to be asked the questions, he should have either declined to go on or said point blank he wouldn’t be answering any questions about it. Did Dan Patrick make him sound disinterested, aloof and plain boring? No, that’s on him, 100%.
Then I suppose we disagree. Your opinion is what it is, not calling it a load of bullshit. I thought Patrick was being a jerk, you ask the question, he does not answer for reasons that make sense to him, you back off. You saw it differently and that's fine.
Someone on another thread compared his skill set to Michael Vick. If that's right and that's his high end, he'd be OK but not worth the number 6. Look up Vick's stats if you like.
You don't have to be a classic pocket passer to succeed in the NFL, but you do have to be very good at passing from the pocket because you will have to do that a lot. Vick was great when he could use his legs, but D's learned to try to keep him in the pocket and pick the defense apart, which he didn't do very well. Murray's height has been reported at either 5'11" or 5'9". Especially if the latter, he is likely to struggle when he is forced to throw from a confined pocket. Which D's will scheme to do.
Someone on another thread compared his skill set to Michael Vick. If that's right and that's his high end, he'd be OK but not worth the number 6. Look up Vick's stats if you like.
You don't have to be a classic pocket passer to succeed in the NFL, but you do have to be very good at passing from the pocket because you will have to do that a lot. Vick was great when he could use his legs, but D's learned to try to keep him in the pocket and pick the defense apart, which he didn't do very well. Murray's height has been reported at either 5'11" or 5'9". Especially if the latter, he is likely to struggle when he is forced to throw from a confined pocket. Which D's will scheme to do.
Re Vick, I would have to believe he is far more accurate with his throws than Vick was?
Someone on another thread compared his skill set to Michael Vick. If that's right and that's his high end, he'd be OK but not worth the number 6. Look up Vick's stats if you like.
You don't have to be a classic pocket passer to succeed in the NFL, but you do have to be very good at passing from the pocket because you will have to do that a lot. Vick was great when he could use his legs, but D's learned to try to keep him in the pocket and pick the defense apart, which he didn't do very well. Murray's height has been reported at either 5'11" or 5'9". Especially if the latter, he is likely to struggle when he is forced to throw from a confined pocket. Which D's will scheme to do.
There are some similarities, but there are notable differences.
Vick was taller, thicker, faster, and a stronger arm with limited touch.
Murray is quicker, a better pocket QB, and has very good touch.
But Vick just looked the part physically of a top pick. Murray is so small that, despite the great production, he almost looks un-draftable. I wouldn't touch him until the third round...
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So I have no strong opinion on Murray.
Someone on another thread compared his skill set to Michael Vick. If that's right and that's his high end, he'd be OK but not worth the number 6. Look up Vick's stats if you like.
You don't have to be a classic pocket passer to succeed in the NFL, but you do have to be very good at passing from the pocket because you will have to do that a lot. Vick was great when he could use his legs, but D's learned to try to keep him in the pocket and pick the defense apart, which he didn't do very well. Murray's height has been reported at either 5'11" or 5'9". Especially if the latter, he is likely to struggle when he is forced to throw from a confined pocket. Which D's will scheme to do.
There are some similarities, but there are notable differences.
Vick was taller, thicker, faster, and a stronger arm with limited touch.
Murray is quicker, a better pocket QB, and has very good touch.
But Vick just looked the part physically of a top pick. Murray is so small that, despite the great production, he almost looks un-draftable. I wouldn't touch him until the third round...
Do you think he goes in the top 10 or at the very least, the first round?
Do you think he goes in the top 10 or at the very least, the first round?
Top ten? No. But he's got top ten ability but third round size (and I'm being generous).
I don't rule someone making a late first round move for him. It's less dramatic than taking him top ten.
All the same questions for any QB during scouting season, including Haskins.
I am with you on this not taking Joe Morris to be QB
I know they are much different . I don't see NYG taking
him and I have doubts about Haskins as well . I won't
complain if they take Haskins . I think we will know
a bit more after the combine with him . Does he always play
with a knee brace ?