@art_stapleton
2h2 hours ago
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Giants have made the release of Connor Barwin official.
Before you criticize Gettleman for the signing last year, talk to Lorenzo Carter about how influential Barwin was in his maturation as a rookie.
If Zo turns out to be player Giants think he can be, Barwin gets some credit
Overpaid, but DG inherited a total mess. We had to make a new start, and think we did that in colors. A solid vet, over the hill no doubt, but good influence in the locker room. Part of DGs plan, I like to hope so. We will see.
Nice find Adam. Look forward to a nice career by Carter
However, DG's free agent strategies have been kind of a joke at least in year 1. Creating the highest paid LT in Solder and overpaying for non-productive "stable-ponies" like Stewart and Barwin were examples of what not to do with cap money...
Guys, he took up less than 1% of our salary cap this year.
Can we stop making a huge deal out of every little thing?
If he helped Zo Carter out and got him off on the right foot, then good. Cutting him creates 300k in dead money and saves us over 1M. It's literally nothing.
There are things to get on Gettleman and the Giants for - but the nitpicking over every little thing and turning each one into a mountain is tiresome.
Barwin sucked. He was literally invisible. He's obviously completely finished. Bringing him in for a year for pennies had zero negative effect on the Giants.
This is the type of player that gets added to the back end of a roster. People here act like the the good teams have quality NFL talent down the entire line from 1-53.
Guys at the bottom of NFL rosters are either there to help on ST's are developmental projects, or are veterans like Barwin who the team is hoping has a little left and can impart some wisdom on his teammates while he's here. I'm not sure what some of you think is sitting at the very bottom of most teams, but I can assure you it's not much more than this.
I read some of these responses and it's like people think signing Connor Barwin put a legitimate dent in the Giants' future.
I get that fans are frustrated, but at least complain about stuff that matters. This didn't matter.
start a thread on what should matter to everybody arc...
Or you could explain why this matters so much.. or at all?
I know these two contracts (Barwin, Stewart) bugged you to the point where you had to make the same sarcastic critique of each in about 800 different ways all year long... and it's still going on even after the players have been cut.
Are you going to ever let it go? Or are you going to hold Gettleman to an impossible standard and lose sleep over every depth signing that doesn't work out?
Go check the bottoms of the other 31 teams' rosters - you'll find similar shit everywhere.
This signing literally did nothing to hurt the Giants.
Less than 1% of the salary cap and under 500k in dead money. Why is this a big deal?
start a thread on what should matter to everybody arc...
Or you could explain why this matters so much.. or at all?
I know these two contracts (Barwin, Stewart) bugged you to the point where you had to make the same sarcastic critique of each in about 800 different ways all year long... and it's still going on even after the players have been cut.
Are you going to ever let it go? Or are you going to hold Gettleman to an impossible standard and lose sleep over every depth signing that doesn't work out?
Go check the bottoms of the other 31 teams' rosters - you'll find similar shit everywhere.
This signing literally did nothing to hurt the Giants.
Less than 1% of the salary cap and under 500k in dead money. Why is this a big deal?
It isn't a big deal. Some people just enjoy complaining at every opportunity. It is tiresome, but you gotta just ignore it.
I think you know this doesn't matter - you just find some sort of comfort in the same tired daily act for whatever reason. Some new, boringly sarcastic remark with ellipses at the end. Over, and over, and over.
He made less than 2 million dollars against our salary cap that exceeded 170 million.
Do the math.
Adrian Clayborn had a 4M cap hit for NE this year and basically did nothing. Did anyone care?
We can do this for every football team in the league. The very bottom of the roster isn't why the Giants aren't good. No team in football is getting contributions from all 53 guys.
We can either have realistic expectations, or we can just whine uncontrollably because we're not getting what we want.
I also think its obtuse to just say the free agent signings like this do not matter. These guys were akin to camp fodder but yet made guaranteed dollars for some reason...why
Mostly because the team is in disarray. Which is why DG was brought in...but hopefully not to continue it.
Again, let us know the things that matter. Is it the big things like signing a Solder, or keeping Eli in place or not. Or is it the small things like dollars not going to solid depth and/or at least younger developmental additions...
Connor Barwin is indicative of 1) how bad the Giants were and 2) how much turnover there was on roster -- because he played a lot at the beginning of the season.
It was really rough watching an agonizingly shot player take a bunch of snaps for the Giants.
I also think its obtuse to just say the free agent signings like this do not matter. These guys were akin to camp fodder but yet made guaranteed dollars for some reason...why
Mostly because the team is in disarray. Which is why DG was brought in...but hopefully not to continue it.
Again, let us know the things that matter. Is it the big things like signing a Solder, or keeping Eli in place or not. Or is it the small things like dollars not going to solid depth and/or at least younger developmental additions...
Oh, spare me.
My first post on this thread had nothing to do with you. You're the one who responded to it with yet another riveting display of dry sarcasm without anything of actual substance.
If you can't figure out that a contract like Barwin's is an inevitability and part of football, I don't know what to tell you.
Every single team in football has low salary players who didn't contribute anything. It's literally not possible to build a team where you get contributions from all 53 guys. You take risks for various reasons on these guys and more often than not, they don't have anything left or just don't work out.
The big issues for NYG right now are the future of the QB position, the right side of the offensive line, FS, DB depth, and edge rush help.
I shouldn't need to explain to you that all of these things are about 500x more important than the minimal salary we paid Connor Barwin and the fact that he's no longer even here.
If you can't figure out that a contract like Barwin's is an inevitability and part of football, I don't know what to tell you.
Every single team in football has low salary players who didn't contribute anything. It's literally not possible to build a team where you get contributions from all 53 guys. You take risks for various reasons on these guys and more often than not, they don't have anything left or just don't work out.
I shouldn't need to explain to you that all of these things are about 500x more important than the minimal salary we paid Connor Barwin and the fact that he's no longer even here.
It's over. He's gone.
Part of the problem is the casual dismissal of roster players and the value they have. The Patriots had 26 players that made between $1-4 million this year, many of whom were significant contributors to their success (Van Noy, Shaq Mason, McCourty, White, Burkhead, Michel, Trey Flowers, Joe Thuney, etc)
The Giants had 14. They're top heavy at glamour positions so they are deficient in many areas. Barwin himself isn't the problem, it's what he represents.
RE: RE: RE: Now you're just being rude for the sake of it.
If you can't figure out that a contract like Barwin's is an inevitability and part of football, I don't know what to tell you.
Every single team in football has low salary players who didn't contribute anything. It's literally not possible to build a team where you get contributions from all 53 guys. You take risks for various reasons on these guys and more often than not, they don't have anything left or just don't work out.
I shouldn't need to explain to you that all of these things are about 500x more important than the minimal salary we paid Connor Barwin and the fact that he's no longer even here.
It's over. He's gone.
Part of the problem is the casual dismissal of roster players and the value they have. The Patriots had 26 players that made between $1-4 million this year, many of whom were significant contributors to their success (Van Noy, Shaq Mason, McCourty, White, Burkhead, Michel, Trey Flowers, Joe Thuney, etc)
The Giants had 14. They're top heavy at glamour positions so they are deficient in many areas. Barwin himself isn't the problem, it's what he represents.
You're going to get nowhere trying to compare anyone to the Patriots, and half the guys you're listing are still on rookie contracts - they weren't vet FA signings to fill the back end of the roster, either. These aren't comparable players.
Barwin represents the same thing every crappy vet on every other team in the league represents. A bottom roster player who didn't pan out.
Every team has these.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Now you're just being rude for the sake of it.
You're going to get nowhere trying to compare anyone to the Patriots, and half the guys you're listing are still on rookie contracts - they weren't vet FA signings to fill the back end of the roster, either. These aren't comparable players.
Barwin represents the same thing every crappy vet on every other team in the league represents. A bottom roster player who didn't pan out.
Every team has these.
The reason they have so many guys on rookie contracts is that they trade valuable players for picks to stock up in the draft. Instead of paying Chandler Jones, for instance, they dealt him away and used one of the picks on Thuney, who has started every single game at LG since he was drafted.
Then you have the Giants, who won't even let a little thing like a blown up hand stop them from giving a lucrative new contract to a defensive end, along with ANOTHER massive contract to a free agent DE.
The Giants "depth" positions are all bottom roster players. Where you want guys worth $3-4 million, the Giants have scrap heap guys because they're loaded with luxury items.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Now you're just being rude for the sake of it.
You're going to get nowhere trying to compare anyone to the Patriots, and half the guys you're listing are still on rookie contracts - they weren't vet FA signings to fill the back end of the roster, either. These aren't comparable players.
Barwin represents the same thing every crappy vet on every other team in the league represents. A bottom roster player who didn't pan out.
Every team has these.
The reason they have so many guys on rookie contracts is that they trade valuable players for picks to stock up in the draft. Instead of paying Chandler Jones, for instance, they dealt him away and used one of the picks on Thuney, who has started every single game at LG since he was drafted.
Then you have the Giants, who won't even let a little thing like a blown up hand stop them from giving a lucrative new contract to a defensive end, along with ANOTHER massive contract to a free agent DE.
The Giants "depth" positions are all bottom roster players. Where you want guys worth $3-4 million, the Giants have scrap heap guys because they're loaded with luxury items.
Didn't we just trade Eli Apple?
Did Dave Gettleman pay JPP or Olivier Vernon or was that Reese?
"Loaded with luxury items" is also a bit hyperbolic. Eli is going to be off the books after next season in all likelihood. We can save cap dollars but cutting bait with Vernon if we want.
We paid an elite WR like any other team would have.
Solder was an overpay; but we almost had no choice. Fans would have revolted if we had Ereck Flowers playing LT for another entire season.
A lot of posters keep doing this - conflating the actions of the two GM's and putting Reese's mistakes on the current regime.
I'm not a huge Dave Gettleman guy, but you don't just fix an entire roster and maximize value across the board in one offseason. I'm not really sure what the expectation was.
We all know Reese FUBAR'd the roster with several zero-yield drafts. Now we're picking up the pieces.
You're going to get nowhere trying to compare anyone to the Patriots, and half the guys you're listing are still on rookie contracts - they weren't vet FA signings to fill the back end of the roster, either. These aren't comparable players.
Barwin represents the same thing every crappy vet on every other team in the league represents. A bottom roster player who didn't pan out.
Every team has these.
The reason they have so many guys on rookie contracts is that they trade valuable players for picks to stock up in the draft. Instead of paying Chandler Jones, for instance, they dealt him away and used one of the picks on Thuney, who has started every single game at LG since he was drafted.
Then you have the Giants, who won't even let a little thing like a blown up hand stop them from giving a lucrative new contract to a defensive end, along with ANOTHER massive contract to a free agent DE.
The Giants "depth" positions are all bottom roster players. Where you want guys worth $3-4 million, the Giants have scrap heap guys because they're loaded with luxury items.
Didn't we just trade Eli Apple?
Did Dave Gettleman pay JPP or Olivier Vernon or was that Reese?
"Loaded with luxury items" is also a bit hyperbolic. Eli is going to be off the books after next season in all likelihood. We can save cap dollars but cutting bait with Vernon if we want.
We paid an elite WR like any other team would have.
Solder was an overpay; but we almost had no choice. Fans would have revolted if we had Ereck Flowers playing LT for another entire season.
A lot of posters keep doing this - conflating the actions of the two GM's and putting Reese's mistakes on the current regime.
I'm not a huge Dave Gettleman guy, but you don't just fix an entire roster and maximize value across the board in one offseason. I'm not really sure what the expectation was.
We all know Reese FUBAR'd the roster with several zero-yield drafts. Now we're picking up the pieces.
Quote:
Solder was an overpay; but we almost had no choice. Fans would have revolted if we had Ereck Flowers playing LT for another entire season.
Even for this place, I am dumbfounded how the Solder signing gets critiqued. Firstly, save for a few on here, many believed we were going to compete in 18, myself included. Yes, of course Solder was overpaid, thats todays market. We NEEDED an OLT in the worst way and Solder was the best of the lot who were available to sign here. Why TF is that so difficult to comprehend?
Now, as with those who felt we were a year or two away, the signing made little sense. But I recall the vast majority on here felt we would contend, regardless of what theyre saying now, imv.
Gettleman's performance in 2019 was poor, no matter how comforting it is to blame Reese.
What do these things have to do with Dave Gettleman?
Quote:
Then you have the Giants, who won't even let a little thing like a blown up hand stop them from giving a lucrative new contract to a defensive end, along with ANOTHER massive contract to a free agent DE.
He didn't pay either player. He got rid of JPP immediately and will likely cut Vernon this offseason.
You two must be friends. You're like an identical wet blanket.
Gettleman's performance in 2019 was poor, no matter how comforting it is to blame Reese.
What do these things have to do with Dave Gettleman?
Quote:
Then you have the Giants, who won't even let a little thing like a blown up hand stop them from giving a lucrative new contract to a defensive end, along with ANOTHER massive contract to a free agent DE.
He didn't pay either player. He got rid of JPP immediately and will likely cut Vernon this offseason.
You two must be friends. You're like an identical wet blanket.
That's funny. You're right...I'm the reason the Giants suck.
When did I say you were the reason the Giants suck?
I just said you're a wet blanket.
Maybe in real life you're a different guy - but here, you seem to be trying really hard to portray this emotionless, Belichick-ian persona where you find joy in nothing.
I have to agree with the guys who say you've become a caricature at this point. Same thing every day.
Go back and read my posts from 2008. You'll see me being positive. Shit, go back to 2016...I was a big McAdoo supporter.
The team is poorly managed and poorly coached. That's an objective and fair view of the Giants in 2018. I don't know what to tell you.
As for caricatures, look in the mirror. Everyone here has a bit. There's a group of you that gives this team the benefit of the doubt if for no other reason that you want to be hopeful. It doesn't reflect what's actually happening, but hey you want to put a positive spin on everything. That's your bit.
As for caricatures, look in the mirror. Everyone here has a bit. There's a group of you that gives this team the benefit of the doubt if for no other reason that you want to be hopeful. It doesn't reflect what's actually happening, but hey you want to put a positive spin on everything. That's your bit.
I had posted saying I wanted to draft a QB. That I didn't like the Stewart signing. That there are FA misses.
Yet, I get continually called a defender of the organization. I'm less of a defender of the organization and more of an attacker of moronic takes, or continual, one-note takes.
arc seems to be the same way. It seems we don't get heard on being critical because we are constantly refuting shitty opinions.
After Stewart is signed or after Barwin has been signed, what is the realistic take? Express disappointment or anger and move on. Why were there near-daily threads saying DG is incompetent because he signed Stewart? Why are signings with negligible impact on the cap used time and again to say DG is too old or too out of touch to be a GM?
There's questionable moves - but then there's either a ridiculous amount of harping on them or just a completely off-base ridiculous take.
You should be able to differentiate that from what is a caricature. Basically, acting as if you aren't negative that management won't make changes isn't just moronic, but highly annoying.
Gettleman sounded like a moron when he was hired, helped hire a moron head coach that can't even manage his timeouts, completely fucked up FA, spoke like a moron again at the draft, and then along with his coach fielded a team that looked like an unmade bed.
And after all that we were left with a pathetic 5-11 season that was over by Columbus Day. Want to talk about annoying? Try watching this debacle and then hearing from luminaries like you and arc about how we're trending up.
I think this organization is in a crisis as we speak. You think it's trending up. I promise you I will shut the fuck up about it if they turn it around and go 10-6 and put me in my place. I've gotta see that happen first. Gettleman and Shurmur earned no benefit of the doubt in year one with the clown show they put out there.
Do I really always give the Giants the benefit of the doubt, though?
Read my posts from the first half of this season. I sounded like you! I was very annoyed and the only reason my tune changed a little bit towards the end of the year was because I felt like where things went south in 2017 and just kept getting worse and worse, that didn't happen in 2018.
2017 gave the impression of an operation that needed to be completely torn apart. 2018 felt more to me like we were trying to form a foundation to move up from. We still suck, but I think we can get better from here now - I don't think we will get worse and if Gettleman knows what he's doing, we shouldn't stay stagnant either. That'll be his test.
But - we didn't hear about he locker room problems, guys getting suspended or being distractions. We actually managed to put some points on the board in a few games. The OL was at least slightly less shitty and I think we're set on the left side for now and if Brown returns, we have at least a passable RG if nothing else.
I do think a strong offseason could bump this team up above .500 but it won't be easy. And if we're a 5-6 win team again next year, I promise I will not be continuing to absolve the coach or the GM.
I wasn't happy with how this year went, I'm just, I guess more focused on how the Giants can fix it and get better. I do like to find a reason to be at least mildly hopeful - but I don't think I'm one of those guys who just defends everything the Giants do.
These guys aren't getting 5 year leashes from me. You've seen me say I need .500 or better next year otherwise I'm looking for someone else. You can hold me to it. I won't move off that or move goalposts to buy either guy more time.
If you want view that Jints Central is Xanadu, then Fat-Mara and arc are quality reads... ;)
And if you are having problems sleeping, read BigBlue'56.
I think you've got it backwards as far as the balance and the one-sided stuff, buddy.
You're on the side that never lets off their stance and thinks everything the Giants do... well, "Jints Central" does.. is bad or wrong or shitty. Zero credit given anywhere for anything.
We aren't in a terrible cap position, but we are a terrible football team in part because of those signings. We made those guys cornerstone players, and have been rewarded with underperformance, a bad locker room, missed free agent opportunities elsewhere, and dead money on the cap. At this point that is indisputable.
When I'm wrong I'm happy to admit it. Right now your arguments that I'm wrong about the current state of the team are based on blaming Reese for putting Gettleman in a bad situation, and the dubious assertion that the Giants are trending upward.
I'm sorry but that's just not as convincing an argument as the low level of product we were forced to watch all season. I find that a much more compelling statement on where this team is.
Do I really always give the Giants the benefit of the doubt, though?
Read my posts from the first half of this season. I sounded like you! I was very annoyed and the only reason my tune changed a little bit towards the end of the year was because I felt like where things went south in 2017 and just kept getting worse and worse, that didn't happen in 2018.
2017 gave the impression of an operation that needed to be completely torn apart. 2018 felt more to me like we were trying to form a foundation to move up from. We still suck, but I think we can get better from here now - I don't think we will get worse and if Gettleman knows what he's doing, we shouldn't stay stagnant either. That'll be his test.
But - we didn't hear about he locker room problems, guys getting suspended or being distractions. We actually managed to put some points on the board in a few games. The OL was at least slightly less shitty and I think we're set on the left side for now and if Brown returns, we have at least a passable RG if nothing else.
I do think a strong offseason could bump this team up above .500 but it won't be easy. And if we're a 5-6 win team again next year, I promise I will not be continuing to absolve the coach or the GM.
I wasn't happy with how this year went, I'm just, I guess more focused on how the Giants can fix it and get better. I do like to find a reason to be at least mildly hopeful - but I don't think I'm one of those guys who just defends everything the Giants do.
These guys aren't getting 5 year leashes from me. You've seen me say I need .500 or better next year otherwise I'm looking for someone else. You can hold me to it. I won't move off that or move goalposts to buy either guy more time.
I can attest to your negativity earlier in the year and on and off throughout the rest of the year. It was unlike you and I told you so at the time. So an apologist youre not and anyone who infers that you are/were, is way off base
The Giants are in one type of terrible cap situation -- 60% of their cap is allocated to 6 players -- and really only Beckham is what you'd consider a very good player.
For the number of a literal roster holes the Giants have (as in incumbent starters not under contract or not likely to return) -- the Giants don't have a lot of cap room.
You look at other bad teams like the Bills and Raiders, they have a lot of holes, and have lots of cash free the next 2 years.
Even his contract is questionable. He hasn't put a season together worthy of that contract in two years now. The value of it is in the supposition that he will return to 2014-16 production.
It's a good example of the state of the team: even the supposed strong parts of it are based on a huge number of "ifs" and "hopefullys".
So much has to be taken on faith because nothing is solid.
Do I really always give the Giants the benefit of the doubt, though?
Read my posts from the first half of this season. I sounded like you! I was very annoyed and the only reason my tune changed a little bit towards the end of the year was because I felt like where things went south in 2017 and just kept getting worse and worse, that didn't happen in 2018.
2017 gave the impression of an operation that needed to be completely torn apart. 2018 felt more to me like we were trying to form a foundation to move up from. We still suck, but I think we can get better from here now - I don't think we will get worse and if Gettleman knows what he's doing, we shouldn't stay stagnant either. That'll be his test.
But - we didn't hear about he locker room problems, guys getting suspended or being distractions. We actually managed to put some points on the board in a few games. The OL was at least slightly less shitty and I think we're set on the left side for now and if Brown returns, we have at least a passable RG if nothing else.
I do think a strong offseason could bump this team up above .500 but it won't be easy. And if we're a 5-6 win team again next year, I promise I will not be continuing to absolve the coach or the GM.
I wasn't happy with how this year went, I'm just, I guess more focused on how the Giants can fix it and get better. I do like to find a reason to be at least mildly hopeful - but I don't think I'm one of those guys who just defends everything the Giants do.
These guys aren't getting 5 year leashes from me. You've seen me say I need .500 or better next year otherwise I'm looking for someone else. You can hold me to it. I won't move off that or move goalposts to buy either guy more time.
I can attest to your negativity earlier in the year and on and off throughout the rest of the year. It was unlike you and I told you so at the time. So an apologist youre not and anyone who infers that you are/were, is way off base
Yeah, I don't know why I'm regarded as some sort of pollyanna around here - I've been critical (very much so) when I felt it was warranted. I spent almost all of last season absolutely KILLING everything about this team - the coach, the personnel, the QB play.. you name it, I said it sucked.
Sure, I lean towards a positive outlook because it's just my nature. I like to find reasons to be hopeful or believe things can get better. If I don't do that, then what enjoyment am I getting out of sports? If all it's doing is angering and frustrating me, I don't see the point.
Doesn't mean I bury my head in the sand and just say "eh, who cares" - I hate watching shitty Giants teams and I miss the feeling I had when this team was legitimately competitive in a major way.
Re-hashing how we got here all of the time and acting like Eeyore on a daily basis won't change the past or affect the future, so to me, I just prefer to look at what's next and where there are opportunities for NYG to improve.
Some people don't agree with me, but I felt that 2017 and 2018 were separately crappy seasons and they were crappy for different reasons. The 2017 Giants team was the most utterly hopeless I've ever felt watching the Giants as a fan. Literally, in my lifetime. And I watched throughout the 90's... every single game between Simms and Collins. I still never felt that way at any point back then. Not with Brown, Kanell or Graham.
We were still bad this year, but it was a different sort of bad. It was the type of bad where we were mostly just undermanned and don't have as much talent as the top teams do.
That's what empty drafts get you...
Shurmur did a poor job in-game - needs to improve there. But there's no question he handled these guys much better than McAdoo had. There's more to coaching than how a guy uses his timeouts and manages the clock. Which is why Reid is so highly regarded despite his laundry list of playoff failures and poor clock management. He's still a tremendous offensive mind.
We've got a good number of picks and hopefully we can do a little better in FA this go-around.
The Giants can be better next year. Playoffs? I don't know. But I think they can be better. If that makes me a homer - hey, call me a homer. I couldn't care less. It's just my opinion and how I see it.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Now you're just being rude for the sake of it.
Even for this place, I am dumbfounded how the Solder signing gets critiqued. Firstly, save for a few on here, many believed we were going to compete in 18, myself included. Yes, of course Solder was overpaid, thats todays market. We NEEDED an OLT in the worst way and Solder was the best of the lot who were available to sign here. Why TF is that so difficult to comprehend?
Now, as with those who felt we were a year or two away, the signing made little sense. But I recall the vast majority on here felt we would contend, regardless of what theyre saying now, imv.
Whoa, not what I recall.
Most on BBI to me felt we were an average team at best looking toward 2018. However, the typical fan behavior of free agency excitement got to them and they loved the "splash" move of buying Solder. They said it was alot of money but "hell, so what!". Why...because most fans are short-sighted.
Then there was a facet of posters that looked at these moves in free agency as highly questionable. Especially making Solder the highest paid OL, of a team going nowhere, with a QB that wasn't going to deliver anything and plenty of areas that needed to be addressed with some level of cap money over the next year or two.
Yet, I get continually called a defender of the organization. I'm less of a defender of the organization and more of an attacker of moronic takes, or continual, one-note takes.
Whoa...easy does it. You defend all the time...sometimes by attacking a moronic take, but also many times by defending it nonetheless.
And don't be critical of the one-note takes...just because some can use few words and still say a lot or all they want to. Some have a gift...
:-)
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Now you're just being rude for the sake of it.
Even for this place, I am dumbfounded how the Solder signing gets critiqued. Firstly, save for a few on here, many believed we were going to compete in 18, myself included. Yes, of course Solder was overpaid, thats todays market. We NEEDED an OLT in the worst way and Solder was the best of the lot who were available to sign here. Why TF is that so difficult to comprehend?
Now, as with those who felt we were a year or two away, the signing made little sense. But I recall the vast majority on here felt we would contend, regardless of what theyre saying now, imv.
Whoa, not what I recall.
Most on BBI to me felt we were an average team at best looking toward 2018. However, the typical fan behavior of free agency excitement got to them and they loved the "splash" move of buying Solder. They said it was alot of money but "hell, so what!". Why...because most fans are short-sighted.
Then there was a facet of posters that looked at these moves in free agency as highly questionable. Especially making Solder the highest paid OL, of a team going nowhere, with a QB that wasn't going to deliver anything and plenty of areas that needed to be addressed with some level of cap money over the next year or two.
Link - ( New Window )
:-)
My favorite Connor Barwin moment...
reading this announcement.
Culture Mission Accomplished.
I was wrong on both fronts
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@art_stapleton
2h2 hours ago
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Giants have made the release of Connor Barwin official.
Before you criticize Gettleman for the signing last year, talk to Lorenzo Carter about how influential Barwin was in his maturation as a rookie.
If Zo turns out to be player Giants think he can be, Barwin gets some credit
Thank you Connor
Can we stop making a huge deal out of every little thing?
If he helped Zo Carter out and got him off on the right foot, then good. Cutting him creates 300k in dead money and saves us over 1M. It's literally nothing.
There are things to get on Gettleman and the Giants for - but the nitpicking over every little thing and turning each one into a mountain is tiresome.
Barwin sucked. He was literally invisible. He's obviously completely finished. Bringing him in for a year for pennies had zero negative effect on the Giants.
This is the type of player that gets added to the back end of a roster. People here act like the the good teams have quality NFL talent down the entire line from 1-53.
Guys at the bottom of NFL rosters are either there to help on ST's are developmental projects, or are veterans like Barwin who the team is hoping has a little left and can impart some wisdom on his teammates while he's here. I'm not sure what some of you think is sitting at the very bottom of most teams, but I can assure you it's not much more than this.
I read some of these responses and it's like people think signing Connor Barwin put a legitimate dent in the Giants' future.
I get that fans are frustrated, but at least complain about stuff that matters. This didn't matter.
Or you could explain why this matters so much.. or at all?
I know these two contracts (Barwin, Stewart) bugged you to the point where you had to make the same sarcastic critique of each in about 800 different ways all year long... and it's still going on even after the players have been cut.
Are you going to ever let it go? Or are you going to hold Gettleman to an impossible standard and lose sleep over every depth signing that doesn't work out?
Go check the bottoms of the other 31 teams' rosters - you'll find similar shit everywhere.
This signing literally did nothing to hurt the Giants.
Less than 1% of the salary cap and under 500k in dead money. Why is this a big deal?
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start a thread on what should matter to everybody arc...
Or you could explain why this matters so much.. or at all?
I know these two contracts (Barwin, Stewart) bugged you to the point where you had to make the same sarcastic critique of each in about 800 different ways all year long... and it's still going on even after the players have been cut.
Are you going to ever let it go? Or are you going to hold Gettleman to an impossible standard and lose sleep over every depth signing that doesn't work out?
Go check the bottoms of the other 31 teams' rosters - you'll find similar shit everywhere.
This signing literally did nothing to hurt the Giants.
Less than 1% of the salary cap and under 500k in dead money. Why is this a big deal?
These were just foolish from the get-go and imv go to mindset of the man building despite your view the $ don't matter.
And if I have posted so much on this then not sure why you need the clarification why. At least mine have been consistent.
But again, let me know what issues matter and we will move onto those...
He made less than 2 million dollars against our salary cap that exceeded 170 million.
Do the math.
Adrian Clayborn had a 4M cap hit for NE this year and basically did nothing. Did anyone care?
We can do this for every football team in the league. The very bottom of the roster isn't why the Giants aren't good. No team in football is getting contributions from all 53 guys.
We can either have realistic expectations, or we can just whine uncontrollably because we're not getting what we want.
I certainly know what choice you've made!
Mostly because the team is in disarray. Which is why DG was brought in...but hopefully not to continue it.
Again, let us know the things that matter. Is it the big things like signing a Solder, or keeping Eli in place or not. Or is it the small things like dollars not going to solid depth and/or at least younger developmental additions...
It was really rough watching an agonizingly shot player take a bunch of snaps for the Giants.
Mostly because the team is in disarray. Which is why DG was brought in...but hopefully not to continue it.
Again, let us know the things that matter. Is it the big things like signing a Solder, or keeping Eli in place or not. Or is it the small things like dollars not going to solid depth and/or at least younger developmental additions...
Oh, spare me.
My first post on this thread had nothing to do with you. You're the one who responded to it with yet another riveting display of dry sarcasm without anything of actual substance.
If you can't figure out that a contract like Barwin's is an inevitability and part of football, I don't know what to tell you.
Every single team in football has low salary players who didn't contribute anything. It's literally not possible to build a team where you get contributions from all 53 guys. You take risks for various reasons on these guys and more often than not, they don't have anything left or just don't work out.
The big issues for NYG right now are the future of the QB position, the right side of the offensive line, FS, DB depth, and edge rush help.
I shouldn't need to explain to you that all of these things are about 500x more important than the minimal salary we paid Connor Barwin and the fact that he's no longer even here.
It's over. He's gone.
And I will be happy to chime in on any of the those important thread topics as well just like this one...
Nothing to get over -- he sucked and he got cut. I'm very glad this horrible season, chalk full of disposable players is over.
I actually couldn't be more over this season.
Every single team in football has low salary players who didn't contribute anything. It's literally not possible to build a team where you get contributions from all 53 guys. You take risks for various reasons on these guys and more often than not, they don't have anything left or just don't work out.
I shouldn't need to explain to you that all of these things are about 500x more important than the minimal salary we paid Connor Barwin and the fact that he's no longer even here.
It's over. He's gone.
Part of the problem is the casual dismissal of roster players and the value they have. The Patriots had 26 players that made between $1-4 million this year, many of whom were significant contributors to their success (Van Noy, Shaq Mason, McCourty, White, Burkhead, Michel, Trey Flowers, Joe Thuney, etc)
The Giants had 14. They're top heavy at glamour positions so they are deficient in many areas. Barwin himself isn't the problem, it's what he represents.
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If you can't figure out that a contract like Barwin's is an inevitability and part of football, I don't know what to tell you.
Every single team in football has low salary players who didn't contribute anything. It's literally not possible to build a team where you get contributions from all 53 guys. You take risks for various reasons on these guys and more often than not, they don't have anything left or just don't work out.
I shouldn't need to explain to you that all of these things are about 500x more important than the minimal salary we paid Connor Barwin and the fact that he's no longer even here.
It's over. He's gone.
Part of the problem is the casual dismissal of roster players and the value they have. The Patriots had 26 players that made between $1-4 million this year, many of whom were significant contributors to their success (Van Noy, Shaq Mason, McCourty, White, Burkhead, Michel, Trey Flowers, Joe Thuney, etc)
The Giants had 14. They're top heavy at glamour positions so they are deficient in many areas. Barwin himself isn't the problem, it's what he represents.
You're going to get nowhere trying to compare anyone to the Patriots, and half the guys you're listing are still on rookie contracts - they weren't vet FA signings to fill the back end of the roster, either. These aren't comparable players.
Barwin represents the same thing every crappy vet on every other team in the league represents. A bottom roster player who didn't pan out.
Every team has these.
You're going to get nowhere trying to compare anyone to the Patriots, and half the guys you're listing are still on rookie contracts - they weren't vet FA signings to fill the back end of the roster, either. These aren't comparable players.
Barwin represents the same thing every crappy vet on every other team in the league represents. A bottom roster player who didn't pan out.
Every team has these.
The reason they have so many guys on rookie contracts is that they trade valuable players for picks to stock up in the draft. Instead of paying Chandler Jones, for instance, they dealt him away and used one of the picks on Thuney, who has started every single game at LG since he was drafted.
Then you have the Giants, who won't even let a little thing like a blown up hand stop them from giving a lucrative new contract to a defensive end, along with ANOTHER massive contract to a free agent DE.
The Giants "depth" positions are all bottom roster players. Where you want guys worth $3-4 million, the Giants have scrap heap guys because they're loaded with luxury items.
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You're going to get nowhere trying to compare anyone to the Patriots, and half the guys you're listing are still on rookie contracts - they weren't vet FA signings to fill the back end of the roster, either. These aren't comparable players.
Barwin represents the same thing every crappy vet on every other team in the league represents. A bottom roster player who didn't pan out.
Every team has these.
The reason they have so many guys on rookie contracts is that they trade valuable players for picks to stock up in the draft. Instead of paying Chandler Jones, for instance, they dealt him away and used one of the picks on Thuney, who has started every single game at LG since he was drafted.
Then you have the Giants, who won't even let a little thing like a blown up hand stop them from giving a lucrative new contract to a defensive end, along with ANOTHER massive contract to a free agent DE.
The Giants "depth" positions are all bottom roster players. Where you want guys worth $3-4 million, the Giants have scrap heap guys because they're loaded with luxury items.
Didn't we just trade Eli Apple?
Did Dave Gettleman pay JPP or Olivier Vernon or was that Reese?
"Loaded with luxury items" is also a bit hyperbolic. Eli is going to be off the books after next season in all likelihood. We can save cap dollars but cutting bait with Vernon if we want.
We paid an elite WR like any other team would have.
Solder was an overpay; but we almost had no choice. Fans would have revolted if we had Ereck Flowers playing LT for another entire season.
A lot of posters keep doing this - conflating the actions of the two GM's and putting Reese's mistakes on the current regime.
I'm not a huge Dave Gettleman guy, but you don't just fix an entire roster and maximize value across the board in one offseason. I'm not really sure what the expectation was.
We all know Reese FUBAR'd the roster with several zero-yield drafts. Now we're picking up the pieces.
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In comment 14287809 arcarsenal said:
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You're going to get nowhere trying to compare anyone to the Patriots, and half the guys you're listing are still on rookie contracts - they weren't vet FA signings to fill the back end of the roster, either. These aren't comparable players.
Barwin represents the same thing every crappy vet on every other team in the league represents. A bottom roster player who didn't pan out.
Every team has these.
The reason they have so many guys on rookie contracts is that they trade valuable players for picks to stock up in the draft. Instead of paying Chandler Jones, for instance, they dealt him away and used one of the picks on Thuney, who has started every single game at LG since he was drafted.
Then you have the Giants, who won't even let a little thing like a blown up hand stop them from giving a lucrative new contract to a defensive end, along with ANOTHER massive contract to a free agent DE.
The Giants "depth" positions are all bottom roster players. Where you want guys worth $3-4 million, the Giants have scrap heap guys because they're loaded with luxury items.
Didn't we just trade Eli Apple?
Did Dave Gettleman pay JPP or Olivier Vernon or was that Reese?
"Loaded with luxury items" is also a bit hyperbolic. Eli is going to be off the books after next season in all likelihood. We can save cap dollars but cutting bait with Vernon if we want.
We paid an elite WR like any other team would have.
Solder was an overpay; but we almost had no choice. Fans would have revolted if we had Ereck Flowers playing LT for another entire season.
A lot of posters keep doing this - conflating the actions of the two GM's and putting Reese's mistakes on the current regime.
I'm not a huge Dave Gettleman guy, but you don't just fix an entire roster and maximize value across the board in one offseason. I'm not really sure what the expectation was.
We all know Reese FUBAR'd the roster with several zero-yield drafts. Now we're picking up the pieces.
Solder was an overpay; but we almost had no choice. Fans would have revolted if we had Ereck Flowers playing LT for another entire season.
Even for this place, I am dumbfounded how the Solder signing gets critiqued. Firstly, save for a few on here, many believed we were going to compete in 18, myself included. Yes, of course Solder was overpaid, thats todays market. We NEEDED an OLT in the worst way and Solder was the best of the lot who were available to sign here. Why TF is that so difficult to comprehend?
Now, as with those who felt we were a year or two away, the signing made little sense. But I recall the vast majority on here felt we would contend, regardless of what theyre saying now, imv.
What do these things have to do with Dave Gettleman?
He didn't pay either player. He got rid of JPP immediately and will likely cut Vernon this offseason.
You two must be friends. You're like an identical wet blanket.
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Gettleman's performance in 2019 was poor, no matter how comforting it is to blame Reese.
What do these things have to do with Dave Gettleman?
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Then you have the Giants, who won't even let a little thing like a blown up hand stop them from giving a lucrative new contract to a defensive end, along with ANOTHER massive contract to a free agent DE.
He didn't pay either player. He got rid of JPP immediately and will likely cut Vernon this offseason.
You two must be friends. You're like an identical wet blanket.
We're not friends. We just kiss.
He did little to nothing there, was released and grabbed by the Rams and ended up playing a large role for them after the Gurley injury.
And I think it worked out fine for both teams. Carolina wasn't going to use him much with McCaffery there.
When did I say you were the reason the Giants suck?
I just said you're a wet blanket.
Maybe in real life you're a different guy - but here, you seem to be trying really hard to portray this emotionless, Belichick-ian persona where you find joy in nothing.
I have to agree with the guys who say you've become a caricature at this point. Same thing every day.
The team is poorly managed and poorly coached. That's an objective and fair view of the Giants in 2018. I don't know what to tell you.
As for caricatures, look in the mirror. Everyone here has a bit. There's a group of you that gives this team the benefit of the doubt if for no other reason that you want to be hopeful. It doesn't reflect what's actually happening, but hey you want to put a positive spin on everything. That's your bit.
I had posted saying I wanted to draft a QB. That I didn't like the Stewart signing. That there are FA misses.
Yet, I get continually called a defender of the organization. I'm less of a defender of the organization and more of an attacker of moronic takes, or continual, one-note takes.
arc seems to be the same way. It seems we don't get heard on being critical because we are constantly refuting shitty opinions.
After Stewart is signed or after Barwin has been signed, what is the realistic take? Express disappointment or anger and move on. Why were there near-daily threads saying DG is incompetent because he signed Stewart? Why are signings with negligible impact on the cap used time and again to say DG is too old or too out of touch to be a GM?
There's questionable moves - but then there's either a ridiculous amount of harping on them or just a completely off-base ridiculous take.
You should be able to differentiate that from what is a caricature. Basically, acting as if you aren't negative that management won't make changes isn't just moronic, but highly annoying.
And after all that we were left with a pathetic 5-11 season that was over by Columbus Day. Want to talk about annoying? Try watching this debacle and then hearing from luminaries like you and arc about how we're trending up.
I think this organization is in a crisis as we speak. You think it's trending up. I promise you I will shut the fuck up about it if they turn it around and go 10-6 and put me in my place. I've gotta see that happen first. Gettleman and Shurmur earned no benefit of the doubt in year one with the clown show they put out there.
In 2016 when we made the playoffs, you spent the entire year complaining about how we spent a shitload of money on defensive players.
then used 2017 to show that view wasn't just justified but the cap issues would kill us for years.
If we go 10-6 this year, you'll likely say it was an outlier for Shurmur, Gettleman drafted the wrong components and we're still fucked.
Read my posts from the first half of this season. I sounded like you! I was very annoyed and the only reason my tune changed a little bit towards the end of the year was because I felt like where things went south in 2017 and just kept getting worse and worse, that didn't happen in 2018.
2017 gave the impression of an operation that needed to be completely torn apart. 2018 felt more to me like we were trying to form a foundation to move up from. We still suck, but I think we can get better from here now - I don't think we will get worse and if Gettleman knows what he's doing, we shouldn't stay stagnant either. That'll be his test.
But - we didn't hear about he locker room problems, guys getting suspended or being distractions. We actually managed to put some points on the board in a few games. The OL was at least slightly less shitty and I think we're set on the left side for now and if Brown returns, we have at least a passable RG if nothing else.
I do think a strong offseason could bump this team up above .500 but it won't be easy. And if we're a 5-6 win team again next year, I promise I will not be continuing to absolve the coach or the GM.
I wasn't happy with how this year went, I'm just, I guess more focused on how the Giants can fix it and get better. I do like to find a reason to be at least mildly hopeful - but I don't think I'm one of those guys who just defends everything the Giants do.
These guys aren't getting 5 year leashes from me. You've seen me say I need .500 or better next year otherwise I'm looking for someone else. You can hold me to it. I won't move off that or move goalposts to buy either guy more time.
We aren't in a terrible cap position
If you want view that Jints Central is Xanadu, then Fat-Mara and arc are quality reads... ;)
And if you are having problems sleeping, read BigBlue'56.
If you want view that Jints Central is Xanadu, then Fat-Mara and arc are quality reads... ;)
And if you are having problems sleeping, read BigBlue'56.
I think you've got it backwards as far as the balance and the one-sided stuff, buddy.
You're on the side that never lets off their stance and thinks everything the Giants do... well, "Jints Central" does.. is bad or wrong or shitty. Zero credit given anywhere for anything.
That's not "balanced." :)
We aren't in a terrible cap position
We aren't in a terrible cap position, but we are a terrible football team in part because of those signings. We made those guys cornerstone players, and have been rewarded with underperformance, a bad locker room, missed free agent opportunities elsewhere, and dead money on the cap. At this point that is indisputable.
When I'm wrong I'm happy to admit it. Right now your arguments that I'm wrong about the current state of the team are based on blaming Reese for putting Gettleman in a bad situation, and the dubious assertion that the Giants are trending upward.
I'm sorry but that's just not as convincing an argument as the low level of product we were forced to watch all season. I find that a much more compelling statement on where this team is.
Read my posts from the first half of this season. I sounded like you! I was very annoyed and the only reason my tune changed a little bit towards the end of the year was because I felt like where things went south in 2017 and just kept getting worse and worse, that didn't happen in 2018.
2017 gave the impression of an operation that needed to be completely torn apart. 2018 felt more to me like we were trying to form a foundation to move up from. We still suck, but I think we can get better from here now - I don't think we will get worse and if Gettleman knows what he's doing, we shouldn't stay stagnant either. That'll be his test.
But - we didn't hear about he locker room problems, guys getting suspended or being distractions. We actually managed to put some points on the board in a few games. The OL was at least slightly less shitty and I think we're set on the left side for now and if Brown returns, we have at least a passable RG if nothing else.
I do think a strong offseason could bump this team up above .500 but it won't be easy. And if we're a 5-6 win team again next year, I promise I will not be continuing to absolve the coach or the GM.
I wasn't happy with how this year went, I'm just, I guess more focused on how the Giants can fix it and get better. I do like to find a reason to be at least mildly hopeful - but I don't think I'm one of those guys who just defends everything the Giants do.
These guys aren't getting 5 year leashes from me. You've seen me say I need .500 or better next year otherwise I'm looking for someone else. You can hold me to it. I won't move off that or move goalposts to buy either guy more time.
I can attest to your negativity earlier in the year and on and off throughout the rest of the year. It was unlike you and I told you so at the time. So an apologist youre not and anyone who infers that you are/were, is way off base
For the number of a literal roster holes the Giants have (as in incumbent starters not under contract or not likely to return) -- the Giants don't have a lot of cap room.
You look at other bad teams like the Bills and Raiders, they have a lot of holes, and have lots of cash free the next 2 years.
It's a good example of the state of the team: even the supposed strong parts of it are based on a huge number of "ifs" and "hopefullys".
So much has to be taken on faith because nothing is solid.
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Do I really always give the Giants the benefit of the doubt, though?
Read my posts from the first half of this season. I sounded like you! I was very annoyed and the only reason my tune changed a little bit towards the end of the year was because I felt like where things went south in 2017 and just kept getting worse and worse, that didn't happen in 2018.
2017 gave the impression of an operation that needed to be completely torn apart. 2018 felt more to me like we were trying to form a foundation to move up from. We still suck, but I think we can get better from here now - I don't think we will get worse and if Gettleman knows what he's doing, we shouldn't stay stagnant either. That'll be his test.
But - we didn't hear about he locker room problems, guys getting suspended or being distractions. We actually managed to put some points on the board in a few games. The OL was at least slightly less shitty and I think we're set on the left side for now and if Brown returns, we have at least a passable RG if nothing else.
I do think a strong offseason could bump this team up above .500 but it won't be easy. And if we're a 5-6 win team again next year, I promise I will not be continuing to absolve the coach or the GM.
I wasn't happy with how this year went, I'm just, I guess more focused on how the Giants can fix it and get better. I do like to find a reason to be at least mildly hopeful - but I don't think I'm one of those guys who just defends everything the Giants do.
These guys aren't getting 5 year leashes from me. You've seen me say I need .500 or better next year otherwise I'm looking for someone else. You can hold me to it. I won't move off that or move goalposts to buy either guy more time.
I can attest to your negativity earlier in the year and on and off throughout the rest of the year. It was unlike you and I told you so at the time. So an apologist youre not and anyone who infers that you are/were, is way off base
Yeah, I don't know why I'm regarded as some sort of pollyanna around here - I've been critical (very much so) when I felt it was warranted. I spent almost all of last season absolutely KILLING everything about this team - the coach, the personnel, the QB play.. you name it, I said it sucked.
Sure, I lean towards a positive outlook because it's just my nature. I like to find reasons to be hopeful or believe things can get better. If I don't do that, then what enjoyment am I getting out of sports? If all it's doing is angering and frustrating me, I don't see the point.
Doesn't mean I bury my head in the sand and just say "eh, who cares" - I hate watching shitty Giants teams and I miss the feeling I had when this team was legitimately competitive in a major way.
Re-hashing how we got here all of the time and acting like Eeyore on a daily basis won't change the past or affect the future, so to me, I just prefer to look at what's next and where there are opportunities for NYG to improve.
Some people don't agree with me, but I felt that 2017 and 2018 were separately crappy seasons and they were crappy for different reasons. The 2017 Giants team was the most utterly hopeless I've ever felt watching the Giants as a fan. Literally, in my lifetime. And I watched throughout the 90's... every single game between Simms and Collins. I still never felt that way at any point back then. Not with Brown, Kanell or Graham.
We were still bad this year, but it was a different sort of bad. It was the type of bad where we were mostly just undermanned and don't have as much talent as the top teams do.
That's what empty drafts get you...
Shurmur did a poor job in-game - needs to improve there. But there's no question he handled these guys much better than McAdoo had. There's more to coaching than how a guy uses his timeouts and manages the clock. Which is why Reid is so highly regarded despite his laundry list of playoff failures and poor clock management. He's still a tremendous offensive mind.
We've got a good number of picks and hopefully we can do a little better in FA this go-around.
The Giants can be better next year. Playoffs? I don't know. But I think they can be better. If that makes me a homer - hey, call me a homer. I couldn't care less. It's just my opinion and how I see it.
Even for this place, I am dumbfounded how the Solder signing gets critiqued. Firstly, save for a few on here, many believed we were going to compete in 18, myself included. Yes, of course Solder was overpaid, thats todays market. We NEEDED an OLT in the worst way and Solder was the best of the lot who were available to sign here. Why TF is that so difficult to comprehend?
Now, as with those who felt we were a year or two away, the signing made little sense. But I recall the vast majority on here felt we would contend, regardless of what theyre saying now, imv.
Whoa, not what I recall.
Most on BBI to me felt we were an average team at best looking toward 2018. However, the typical fan behavior of free agency excitement got to them and they loved the "splash" move of buying Solder. They said it was alot of money but "hell, so what!". Why...because most fans are short-sighted.
Then there was a facet of posters that looked at these moves in free agency as highly questionable. Especially making Solder the highest paid OL, of a team going nowhere, with a QB that wasn't going to deliver anything and plenty of areas that needed to be addressed with some level of cap money over the next year or two.
Yet, I get continually called a defender of the organization. I'm less of a defender of the organization and more of an attacker of moronic takes, or continual, one-note takes.
Whoa...easy does it. You defend all the time...sometimes by attacking a moronic take, but also many times by defending it nonetheless.
And don't be critical of the one-note takes...just because some can use few words and still say a lot or all they want to. Some have a gift...
:-)
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Even for this place, I am dumbfounded how the Solder signing gets critiqued. Firstly, save for a few on here, many believed we were going to compete in 18, myself included. Yes, of course Solder was overpaid, thats todays market. We NEEDED an OLT in the worst way and Solder was the best of the lot who were available to sign here. Why TF is that so difficult to comprehend?
Now, as with those who felt we were a year or two away, the signing made little sense. But I recall the vast majority on here felt we would contend, regardless of what theyre saying now, imv.
Whoa, not what I recall.
Most on BBI to me felt we were an average team at best looking toward 2018. However, the typical fan behavior of free agency excitement got to them and they loved the "splash" move of buying Solder. They said it was alot of money but "hell, so what!". Why...because most fans are short-sighted.
Then there was a facet of posters that looked at these moves in free agency as highly questionable. Especially making Solder the highest paid OL, of a team going nowhere, with a QB that wasn't going to deliver anything and plenty of areas that needed to be addressed with some level of cap money over the next year or two.
Then we disagree as to recall