...and the Goliad Massacre.
Am travelling to San Antonio and thought I'd read up a bit on the Alamo, and lo and behold I came across the Goliad Massacre that occurred about three weeks after James Bowie, Davy Crockett, William Travis and about 180 others gave their lives for Texas independence.
Goliad is about 90 miles southeast of San Antonio, and on -- of all days -- Palm Sunday (March 27th, 1836) over 400 Texans and American filibusters were executed by order of Antonio López de Santa Anna. They had surrendered; had been taken prisoner; assumed they were going to be exchanged, but then butchered!
Over 400 men executed!
That figure just boggles the mind. At the Alamo, the vast majority of those killed were killed in battle. Roughly ten or so men surrendered and then summarily put to the sword. The Goliad massacre was forty times that number!
I'll spare you the details, but I wanted to make three observations.
(1) Outside of Texas, I don't think a lot of Americans have ever heard of the Goliad Massacre. I knew nothing of it, and I think I pass for one who's tolerably knowledgeable about American military history;
(2) About 3-4 weeks after Goliad, Antonio López de Santa Anna was soundly defeated by forces under Sam Houston at the pivotal Battle of San Jacinto. A couple days after the battle, Santa Anna was found dressed as a common solider and would have passed for one had he not been recognized by his own men. Why Sam Houston did not have him summarily executed is beyond my comprehension;
(3) We all are familiar with the battle cry, "Remember the Alamo." At San Jacinto, the forces under Sam Houston charged into battle yelling, "Remember the Alamo," and "Remember Goliad."
Pride of San Jacinto - ( New Window )
I did not make it to Goliad but being a history teacher, I am well aware of this battle. Another place you might want to visit is the LBJ ranch and boyhood home. That's located nearby in Johnson City Texas.
Executing him for revenge was not the correct thing to do without a trial.
However the goal of the war was independence for Texas from Mexico. If you kill one of their senior generals, it gives Mexico another reason to continue to fight.
I'm just guessing, but I think Sam Houston probably weighed rightful vengeance after trial vs Independence without bloodshed.
But thanks I never heard of those executions either.
I did not make it to Goliad but being a history teacher, I am well aware of this battle. Another place you might want to visit is the LBJ ranch and boyhood home. That's located nearby in Johnson City Texas.
Thanks for the tip! Much appreciated!!!
Executing him for revenge was not the correct thing to do without a trial.
However the goal of the war was independence for Texas from Mexico. If you kill one of their senior generals, it gives Mexico another reason to continue to fight.
I'm just guessing, but I think Sam Houston probably weighed rightful vengeance after trial vs Independence without bloodshed.
But thanks I never heard of those executions either.
Your point is well taken that independence was the goal, and executing Santa Anna would probably hinder that.
The best and shortest movie runs at the IMAX about 2 blocks from the site. Highly recommend it! They did run it daily, I think they still do. I did learn a few things from the movie, like the military engagement went on for 13 cold and rainy days. we went to the Alamo 1st, then the movie as recommended by the security guards. Then, we went back with a much fuller understanding.
I read a lot on the Texas revolution when I was a kid after watching Fess Parker and Jed Clampett in the Disney version. The books that I read back then(late 1950's) did not shed a good light on Col Fannin. The truth is that he was dealt a bad hand and tried to send relief to the Alamo.
Sam Houston wanted Texas. He felt that Santa Anna signing over Texas was a better deal than executing him and possibly have Mexico rally to take back Texas. History proved him right and also later when he implored Texas to NOT join the Confederacy.
San Antonio Imax - ( New Window )
The best and shortest movie runs at the IMAX about 2 blocks from the site. Highly recommend it! They did run it daily, I think they still do. I did learn a few things from the movie, like the military engagement went on for 13 cold and rainy days. we went to the Alamo 1st, then the movie as recommended by the security guards. Then, we went back with a much fuller understanding.
I read a lot on the Texas revolution when I was a kid after watching Fess Parker and Jed Clampett in the Disney version. The books that I read back then(late 1950's) did not shed a good light on Col Fannin. The truth is that he was dealt a bad hand and tried to send relief to the Alamo.
Sam Houston wanted Texas. He felt that Santa Anna signing over Texas was a better deal than executing him and possibly have Mexico rally to take back Texas. History proved him right and also later when he implored Texas to NOT join the Confederacy. San Antonio Imax - ( New Window )
Much appreciate your thoughts, input.
Incidentally, from the little I read about Fannin, he seems to have hesitated about reinforcing the Alamo, which I suppose he can be forgiven for. He and his men might have all ended up in reinforcing a mistake, and maybe caught in the same jaws that devoured everyone else at the Alamo.
But his deployment of troops at the Battle of Coleto Creek was a major mistake and ended up in an inglorious surrender that regrettably led to the Palm Sunday Goliad Massacre.
BTW, I have to visit my cardiologist on Fannin Street here in Houston next week!
I liked the following movie for its accuracy and decent acting. Billy Bob Thorton as Davy Crockett is great in it.
Box Office Bomb The Alamo 2004 - ( New Window )
Thanks for the tip, Reb... I am indeed going in early April.
Interesting info about Santa Anna. In a crazy sort of way, he led a "charmed" life and passed away well into his 80s.
Amazing job by Gen Winfield Scott marching all the way to Mexico City, without support and basically capturing Mexico. His chief of staff? Colonel Robert E. Lee. LT. Ulysses S. Grant was a platoon commander IIRC.
Reb probably knows.
Fess Parker
John Wayne
Billy Bob Thornton
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A principal reason for not executing Santa Anna was that he was also President of Mexico at the time and virtual dictator. Getting him to sign a treaty and giving Texas its independence was more important than revenge --a wise choice. BTW, the Mexican Congress and subsequent government repudiated the treaty and tried to invade Texas again in the next few years. Santa Anna was like a bad penny for Mexico --he kept showing up time and time again through the years. He became President several times in the future and was returned to power in time to lose the Mexican - American War in 1846-1848, when Mexico lost California and the US Southwest. I don't think he is viewed too kindly in Mexican History. He called himself the "Napoleon of the West" and was quite the ladies' man. This was probably another case of someone with some ability who could have served his country better.
Amazing job by Gen Winfield Scott marching all the way to Mexico City, without support and basically capturing Mexico. His chief of staff? Colonel Robert E. Lee. LT. Ulysses S. Grant was a platoon commander IIRC.
Reb probably knows.
No less authority than the Duke of Wellington said that Scott's campaign from Vera Cruz to Mexico City was the greatest in all of military history annals.
Many years ago, I was a bit perplexed how Scott was able to pull this off with such a tiny army. But as you mentioned, Lee and Grant (not to mention dozens of future Civil War officers) were part of Scott's army -- in other words, it was a highly professional one. The same cannot be said for the Mexican Army.
Alas, my reading of the Mexican-American War does not cast our country in a favorable light. It was a nasty, ugly land grab with the U.S. kicking sand in the eye of Mexico, and then stepping on its throat. A very unjust war.
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In comment 14287610 varco said:
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A principal reason for not executing Santa Anna was that he was also President of Mexico at the time and virtual dictator. Getting him to sign a treaty and giving Texas its independence was more important than revenge --a wise choice. BTW, the Mexican Congress and subsequent government repudiated the treaty and tried to invade Texas again in the next few years. Santa Anna was like a bad penny for Mexico --he kept showing up time and time again through the years. He became President several times in the future and was returned to power in time to lose the Mexican - American War in 1846-1848, when Mexico lost California and the US Southwest. I don't think he is viewed too kindly in Mexican History. He called himself the "Napoleon of the West" and was quite the ladies' man. This was probably another case of someone with some ability who could have served his country better.
Amazing job by Gen Winfield Scott marching all the way to Mexico City, without support and basically capturing Mexico. His chief of staff? Colonel Robert E. Lee. LT. Ulysses S. Grant was a platoon commander IIRC.
Reb probably knows.
No less authority than the Duke of Wellington said that Scott's campaign from Vera Cruz to Mexico City was the greatest in all of military history annals.
Many years ago, I was a bit perplexed how Scott was able to pull this off with such a tiny army. But as you mentioned, Lee and Grant (not to mention dozens of future Civil War officers) were part of Scott's army -- in other words, it was a highly professional one. The same cannot be said for the Mexican Army.
Alas, my reading of the Mexican-American War does not cast our country in a favorable light. It was a nasty, ugly land grab with the U.S. kicking sand in the eye of Mexico, and then stepping on its throat. A very unjust war.
Most of those 1700 & 1800 wars were land grabs, but to ease your mind think of it as retribution for the 400 executed by Santa Anna at Goliad.
And yes, McClelland, Hancock, Armistead, Sherman, and Meade (to name a few) and most of the Civil War leadership were in that force.
The Texans yelled "Remember the Alamo! Remember Goliad!" while slaughtering the Mexicans, offering no quarter since none had previously been offered by the Mexicans. I think they killed something like 600 soldiers while only losing 6 themselves.
John Wayne's Alamo set still stands in Bracketville and you can pay to go in. The set for the 2004 Alamo movie is rotting in a field outside Austin. You can glimpse if from Reimer's Ranch county park.
link - ( New Window )
You can't really tell from the front entrance but the compound is massive once you get inside and fun to explore. Easily spent around 4 hours there and they had a lot of interactive activities.
Plus the San Antonio River Walk is just a few blocks from the Alamo. Tons of great options to eat and drink at.
You can't really tell from the front entrance but the compound is massive once you get inside and fun to explore. Easily spent around 4 hours there and they had a lot of interactive activities.
Plus the San Antonio River Walk is just a few blocks from the Alamo. Tons of great options to eat and drink at.
Oh, wow, sounds really interesting! Out of curiosity, I looked at an overlay of the Alamo Fort of 1836 with present-day San Antonio. And then it hit me like a ton of bricks. The final attack by Santa Anna hit the Alamo on three sides, and there simply were not enough defenders in depth to handle the attack.
I looked at the map and wondered if the defenders could have held out longer had they decided to build an interior wall to defend a smaller perimeter?
A lot to unpack here, but here are a few observations:
(1) Your explanation leads to a very slippery slope. In essence, any country can conquer / take land from another whenever they want under the justification "might makes right."
(2) The greatest support for the war was in the south which wanted to extend slavery into new states;
(3) No less a person than Ulysses S. Grant called the Mexican-American War immoral and our "most evil war." He also said that the United States Civil War (15 years later) was divine punishment for our nation's aggression in Mexico.
link - ( New Window )
Thanks for the information... and what a beautiful photo!
Like most kids of the early 1950's, I was a Davy Crockett fan and therefore became quite interested in the Texas fight for independence. Still an amazing story.
Like most kids of the early 1950's, I was a Davy Crockett fan and therefore became quite interested in the Texas fight for independence. Still an amazing story.
An amazing story, indeed! I think there's still a bit of a cloud over exactly how many perished at the Alamo and how many escaped, and -- also -- who turned out NOT to be there in the first place.
One thing is for sure: The more I read about Santa Anna's pre-dawn attack, the more certain I am that -- as a gringo -- the Alamo Fort would have been the last place on earth I would have wanted to be on March 6th, 1836.
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The Alamo was a very interesting experience. I initially thought I'd spend an hour there and then spend the rest of the day exploring downtown San Antonio.
You can't really tell from the front entrance but the compound is massive once you get inside and fun to explore. Easily spent around 4 hours there and they had a lot of interactive activities.
Plus the San Antonio River Walk is just a few blocks from the Alamo. Tons of great options to eat and drink at.
Oh, wow, sounds really interesting! Out of curiosity, I looked at an overlay of the Alamo Fort of 1836 with present-day San Antonio. And then it hit me like a ton of bricks. The final attack by Santa Anna hit the Alamo on three sides, and there simply were not enough defenders in depth to handle the attack.
I looked at the map and wondered if the defenders could have held out longer had they decided to build an interior wall to defend a smaller perimeter?
They were simply outnumbered. They only had around 200 soldiers against Santa Ana's horde. They might have been able to hold on a little longer had they had a smaller perimeter to man, but it was inevitable. Sam Houston did not come to the rescue and almost all there died as a result. Sam Houston did kick Santa Ana's ass after that however and that was the end of it, but unfortunately a little too late for the men at the Alamo who died heroically.
On another related note, I've been to San Antonio many times for work and going to the Alamo never seems to get old, but as other's have said, there is a ton to do downtown, especially along the River Walk. The River Walk stretches for a number of miles, but downtown there's plenty of restaurants, shops, bars, etc. Most of the restaurants are a little expensive, but most are worth the price.
Lastly, another place to go and visit while you're in San Antone is the Pearl Brewery district. It's not far from downtown, but also offers some outstanding Bars, Restaurants, shops, etc, as well. The brewery itself is no longer functional, but they use the property now for the restaurants, bars, shops, etc. It's a pretty awesome area to walk around. Go into the Hotel on site, as well. It uses parts of the brewery, with all the piping, vessels, fermenters, etc as décor and furniture.
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In comment 14287672 NYG27 said:
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The Alamo was a very interesting experience. I initially thought I'd spend an hour there and then spend the rest of the day exploring downtown San Antonio.
You can't really tell from the front entrance but the compound is massive once you get inside and fun to explore. Easily spent around 4 hours there and they had a lot of interactive activities.
Plus the San Antonio River Walk is just a few blocks from the Alamo. Tons of great options to eat and drink at.
Oh, wow, sounds really interesting! Out of curiosity, I looked at an overlay of the Alamo Fort of 1836 with present-day San Antonio. And then it hit me like a ton of bricks. The final attack by Santa Anna hit the Alamo on three sides, and there simply were not enough defenders in depth to handle the attack.
I looked at the map and wondered if the defenders could have held out longer had they decided to build an interior wall to defend a smaller perimeter?
They were simply outnumbered. They only had around 200 soldiers against Santa Ana's horde. They might have been able to hold on a little longer had they had a smaller perimeter to man, but it was inevitable. Sam Houston did not come to the rescue and almost all there died as a result. Sam Houston did kick Santa Ana's ass after that however and that was the end of it, but unfortunately a little too late for the men at the Alamo who died heroically.
On another related note, I've been to San Antonio many times for work and going to the Alamo never seems to get old, but as other's have said, there is a ton to do downtown, especially along the River Walk. The River Walk stretches for a number of miles, but downtown there's plenty of restaurants, shops, bars, etc. Most of the restaurants are a little expensive, but most are worth the price.
Lastly, another place to go and visit while you're in San Antone is the Pearl Brewery district. It's not far from downtown, but also offers some outstanding Bars, Restaurants, shops, etc, as well. The brewery itself is no longer functional, but they use the property now for the restaurants, bars, shops, etc. It's a pretty awesome area to walk around. Go into the Hotel on site, as well. It uses parts of the brewery, with all the piping, vessels, fermenters, etc as décor and furniture.
Much, much appreciate all your tips! I'm definitely gonna check out the River Walk and a few of the restaurants and bars. I'm getting excited just reading all the suggestions on this thread! Thanks again!
Definitely will do! Thanks for the tip!