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QB size & injuries

RomanWH : 2/4/2019 4:55 pm
A lot has been said in various threads about how a small framed QB like Kyler Murray wouldn't survive the NFL. Concerns about his durability since he's around 5'9" and maybe 185lb. While others have tried to argue that there are comparable QB's around his size that have been successful in the NFL(Flutie, Brees, Russel Wilson, Baker Mayfield), I'd like to point out the other side of the argument - the assertion that having prototypical size equates to durability. Consider the following QBs who have suffered serious injuries causing them to miss multiple games despite having more traditional prototypical size:

-Aaron Rodgers(6'2", 225lb.) - broken collarbone x 2
-Jimmy Garoppolo(6'2", 225lb.) - torn ACL
-Andrew Luck(6'4" 234lb.) - torn labrum
-Carson Wentz(6'5" 237lb.) - torn ACL
-Deshaun Watson(6'2" 220lb.) - torn ACL(non-contact)
-Tom Brady(6'4" 225lb.) - torn ACL
-Ben Roethlisberger(6'5" 240lb.) - foot fracture, dislocated shoulder, foot sprain, dislocated rib, meniscus tear, cracked ribs, etc.
-Alex Smith(6'4" 216lb.) - gruesome broken leg
-Carson Palmer(6'5" 235lb.) - torn ACL x 2, broken arm
-Tony Romo(6'3", 230lb.) - broken rib, broken pinkie, broken collarbone x 3, ruptured disc, fractured vertebrae
-etc.

That's just a small list thrown together. And I didn't even include any concussions on this list. The point I'm trying to make is having prototype size doesn't make you immune to injuries. Injuries can happen to anyone and are an unfortunate reality in any contact sport. You can't reasonably predict whether or not one will be injury-prone unless the individual himself has a long injury-filled past(which Murray does not). A special talent like Kyler should not be outright dismissed due to his size.

As Giants fans, we've been spoiled with Eli and his iron-man like durability. We have to be prepared for life after Manning and that could mean embracing non-traditional ways of thinking about player size. I mean, the Patriots just showed that a non-prototypically sized WR could be not only a number 1 wideout on a winning team, but also SB MVP.
If you get in an accident  
Gman11 : 2/4/2019 5:02 pm : link
in an SUV you are likely to get injured. So, if you have a subcompact car like a Fiat you're not more likely to get injured. Sounds like the same logic to me.
I agree w the post  
Pep22 : 2/4/2019 5:07 pm : link
The biggest variable in QB injuries is the ability to avoid major hits. The worst guy I've ever seen (both in and out of the pocket) is Robert Griffin. Just no awareness of pressure.

Eli, the opposite end of the spectrum, has helped his incredible durability by avoiding contact almost altogether whether it be an unwillingness to scoot even a few yards for a first down or hurling himself to the ground when he senses contact.

Of course there are tons of guys (big and small) who have varied injury histories. I don't see height as a big injury factor. Physical strength certainly helps and Murray certainly has that. The kid is very well built.
...  
BleedBlue : 2/4/2019 5:08 pm : link
yea while i get injuries happen to all sizes, being smaller you have less mass and therefore dont absorb hits the same way. i think murray is gonna be a stud, so im fine if they draft him, but his tiny frame would 100% cause hits to take more of a toll. that being said, wen i watch him, i see a guy avoiding significant contact often
murray  
Hilary : 2/4/2019 5:18 pm : link
Concern with Murray is not just injuries but whether he would be able to see the field of play and have good angles to throw through when he is so much shorter than the players on the front 7 of the defense.
RE: murray  
csb : 2/4/2019 5:35 pm : link
In comment 14287332 Hilary said:
Quote:
Concern with Murray is not just injuries but whether he would be able to see the field of play and have good angles to throw through when he is so much shorter than the players on the front 7 of the defense.


He seemed to be able to see the field at OU pretty well and the average size of OL there is pretty close to those of the NFL.
Really hard to argue this one way or the other.  
Ivan15 : 2/4/2019 5:42 pm : link
College QBs really don’t get hit very much. Any one with any college injury history probably needs to be downgraded by at least half a round (say 16 slots). Anyone with 2 injuries probably needs to drop at least one round.

I do think size has very little to do with it, but maybe the more mobile guys have more leg injuries, whether they are big targets or small ones. If you want to argue that big and mobile is worse than small and mobile, go for it.

Upper body injuries may just be good luck or bad luck.
I'd be most concerned  
mrvax : 2/4/2019 6:04 pm : link
about Murray b/c of his tendency to run often. That's what took out Wentz in 2017.
What about the protection?  
Cool Down : 2/4/2019 6:29 pm : link
What about the people around the QB?
I would guess that a Qb with goo protection, OL and Backs,
Stands a bettert chance of going injury-free than some poor jerk left out there to find his own escape hatch.
Style of Play is more important than Size  
Rafflee : 2/4/2019 6:43 pm : link
If you're relying on your QB as a RUNNER, then you'll have the Shelf Life of a Running Back---that includes more in season interruptions than desireable, along with a shorter career.

All successful QB's play in a system that emphasizes their strengths--- a QB who is not effective in some sort of Pocket Passing design is shrinking the Defensive Resposibility on every play because the offense cannot use the entire field. A Pocket Passer with "One Needed Step of Mobility" provides tremendous ability to stretch an offense over an entire field.

Those are my main Strikes against Murray...He also has a great alternative to play Baseball---the QB position is very difficult. I don't want my QB to have an easy "alternate" or side thing....3 strikes---he's out, as a QB.

I'm easily willing to be proven wrong--Hard Pass on Murray.
If Murray is almost 5'11  
TMS : 2/4/2019 6:50 pm : link
Michael Vick, remember him? Murray's skill set is comparable. Why would you not take a chance on that, with the rest of our offensive talent. Just asking.
I thought he was 5 9"  
ZogZerg : 2/4/2019 6:56 pm : link
Maybe we should wait until he is weighed and measured before we compare him to guys.
RE: I agree w the post  
Deejboy : 2/4/2019 7:03 pm : link
In comment 14287324 Pep22 said:
Quote:
The biggest variable in QB injuries is the ability to avoid major hits. The worst guy I've ever seen (both in and out of the pocket) is Robert Griffin. Just no awareness of pressure.

Eli, the opposite end of the spectrum, has helped his incredible durability by avoiding contact almost altogether whether it be an unwillingness to scoot even a few yards for a first down or hurling himself to the ground when he senses contact.

Of course there are tons of guys (big and small) who have varied injury histories. I don't see height as a big injury factor. Physical strength certainly helps and Murray certainly has that. The kid is very well built.

Eli has gotten hit a ton. The guy is just durable. It's part genetics, part luck, part toughness. Guys like Wentz just get hurt and guys like Eli don't and can shake off injuries. It's one of those hidden things scouts try to find out about players.
RE: If you get in an accident  
RomanWH : 2/4/2019 7:23 pm : link
In comment 14287320 Gman11 said:
Quote:
in an SUV you are likely to get injured. So, if you have a subcompact car like a Fiat you're not more likely to get injured. Sounds like the same logic to me.


Not what I said at all. If we're trying to compare this to automobiles, I'm refuting the notion that is commonly said that driving a bigger vehicle(like an SUV) will protect you better in accidents. I'm arguing that you can't reasonably say for certain that driving a big SUV equates to you not being injured in a car accident. A vehicle that has a 5-star crash safety rating will offer you great protection from injury regardless of the size of the vehicle. Just like a football player without a long history of getting injured will have as likely a chance of getting injured as any player regardless of size.
Eli's History  
Percy : 2/4/2019 8:30 pm : link
In this regard shows him to have a remarkable ability to avoid injury. The OP makes two great points:

1. We've been spoiled in this regard with the ingenious Eli at the helm.

2. We're not likely to be get a new QB who can repeat this in the future.

That is, among other things, the backup QB is going to be a whole lot more important after Eli than has been the case with Eli. .
RE: If Murray is almost 5'11  
BlueLou'sBack : 2/4/2019 8:39 pm : link
In comment 14287409 TMS said:
Quote:
Michael Vick, remember him? Murray's skill set is comparable. Why would you not take a chance on that, with the rest of our offensive talent. Just asking.


If "the rest of our offensive talent" is a significant factor in the equation then you'd be happy to select QB in round 2 or later, rather than worry about getting a "franchise" QB.
RE: If Murray is almost 5'11  
Beer Man : 2/4/2019 8:40 pm : link
In comment 14287409 TMS said:
Quote:
Michael Vick, remember him? Murray's skill set is comparable. Why would you not take a chance on that, with the rest of our offensive talent. Just asking.
We shall see. You can't hide your real height and weight at the combine, the way colleges exaggerate them.
RE: RE: If Murray is almost 5'11  
Beer Man : 2/4/2019 8:42 pm : link
In comment 14287492 Beer Man said:
Quote:
In comment 14287409 TMS said:


Quote:


Michael Vick, remember him? Murray's skill set is comparable. Why would you not take a chance on that, with the rest of our offensive talent. Just asking.

We shall see. You can't hide your real height and weight at the combine, the way colleges exaggerate them.
Having said that, the A's list him as 5' 11", 195lbs
RE: If you get in an accident  
KeoweeFan : 2/4/2019 8:45 pm : link
In comment 14287320 Gman11 said:
Quote:
in an SUV you are likely to get injured. So, if you have a subcompact car like a Fiat you're not more likely to get injured. Sounds like the same logic to me.

Yes, but if I'm entered into a gymkhana I'll take the Fiat every time. It is a truism that a QB is more likely to be injured on contact than on Offensive guard. The question however boils down to how can either of them do the job asked of them better.
RE: I agree w the post  
JCin332 : 2/4/2019 9:11 pm : link
In comment 14287324 Pep22 said:
Quote:
Eli, the opposite end of the spectrum, has helped his incredible durability by avoiding contact almost altogether whether it be an unwillingness to scoot even a few yards for a first down or hurling himself to the ground when he senses contact.


It's almost as if this guy doesn't actually watch the games...
You forgot to list broken vagina  
SHO'NUFF : 2/4/2019 9:17 pm : link
for Big Ben...
RE: RE: If you get in an accident  
SHO'NUFF : 2/4/2019 9:20 pm : link
In comment 14287437 RomanWH said:
Quote:
In comment 14287320 Gman11 said:


Quote:


in an SUV you are likely to get injured. So, if you have a subcompact car like a Fiat you're not more likely to get injured. Sounds like the same logic to me.



Not what I said at all. If we're trying to compare this to automobiles, I'm refuting the notion that is commonly said that driving a bigger vehicle(like an SUV) will protect you better in accidents. I'm arguing that you can't reasonably say for certain that driving a big SUV equates to you not being injured in a car accident. A vehicle that has a 5-star crash safety rating will offer you great protection from injury regardless of the size of the vehicle. Just like a football player without a long history of getting injured will have as likely a chance of getting injured as any player regardless of size.


It depends on the driver... and maybe the Fiat is small enough to maneuver around the accidents that big SUVs can't avoid.
RE: ...  
SHO'NUFF : 2/4/2019 9:22 pm : link
In comment 14287326 BleedBlue said:
Quote:
yea while i get injuries happen to all sizes, being smaller you have less mass and therefore dont absorb hits the same way. i think murray is gonna be a stud, so im fine if they draft him, but his tiny frame would 100% cause hits to take more of a toll. that being said, wen i watch him, i see a guy avoiding significant contact often


Smaller guys are more flexible and can take hits at weird angles.
The old saying  
mdthedream : 2/5/2019 6:52 am : link
you can't hit what you can't catch. Also if your smart and some are not you can avoid some hits by going out of bounds or sliding. Some QBs like Griffen just where not very smart in avoiding the contact.
"NFL is a Small Man's Game.."  
ZogZerg : 2/5/2019 7:43 am : link
Didn't DG say something like that when he was hired?

LOL
RE: If Murray is almost 5'11  
Mike in Boston : 2/5/2019 8:24 am : link
In comment 14287409 TMS said:
Quote:
Michael Vick, remember him? Murray's skill set is comparable. Why would you not take a chance on that, with the rest of our offensive talent. Just asking.


Michael Vick never threw for 3500 yards in a season, and adding rushing he has never reached 4000 yards from scrimmage, passing and rushing together.

If Mike Vick is your upside, and RGIII is your disaster scenario, he'd be a good 2nd rounder, but poor value at #6.
The proble with Murray  
Chip : 2/5/2019 8:31 am : link
is that he has a baseball career option and if he gets a concussion or other injury he may turn to baseball.
How about we ask Phil Simms  
.McL. : 2/5/2019 8:34 am : link
If bulking up, lifting weights with the lineman helped his durability...

Quote:
Simms began working out with the linemen before the 1984 season, having failed to stay healthy his previous four seasons. Over his next three seasons, he didn’t miss a single game. Where he was once known for being brittle, he became known for being tough: His calling card was standing tall in the pocket amidst a swarm of defenders until the last possible moment, the better to enable the Giants’ offense long-developing pass patterns, often run by receivers who struggled to get open. Then he’d stride into his throw, with the same go-for-broke assertiveness with which he makes points as a broadcaster, accepting whatever punishment followed.

“Phil is tough, he’s really mentally and physically tough. Nobody doubted his toughness and courage,” said Parker. “The one thing he did that everybody saw was stand in there and take a hit to buy and an extra second to hit the receiver.”

Added Benson, “He was gonna hold onto that fucking ball until the receiver was open, period. And he didn’t have the best of lines those first few years, that’s for damn sure. He was a warrior, that’s all there was to it.”

Aside from improving his durability, Simms’ lifting with the linemen improved team morale.

https://www.politico.com/states/new-york/city-hall/story/2013/02/as-hard-as-you-can-a-story-about-the-indestructibility-of-phil-simms-067223
Well,  
Doomster : 2/5/2019 10:08 am : link
Flutie was not successful in the NFL, Wilson's body build is much more rugged than Murray's, and Mayfield shows potential, not success...

5'11" or 5'9"? 185 or 195?

You have to be able to take hits in the NFL.....whether he would be durable isw a huge question mark....

Eli has perfected the chuck and duck....that is why he is so durable....
RE: RE: I agree w the post  
Gatorade Dunk : 2/5/2019 1:42 pm : link
In comment 14287514 JCin332 said:
Quote:
In comment 14287324 Pep22 said:


Quote:


Eli, the opposite end of the spectrum, has helped his incredible durability by avoiding contact almost altogether whether it be an unwillingness to scoot even a few yards for a first down or hurling himself to the ground when he senses contact.



It's almost as if this guy doesn't actually watch the games...

Or you don't...

RE: How about we ask Phil Simms  
ron mexico : 2/5/2019 2:01 pm : link
In comment 14287653 .McL. said:
Quote:
If bulking up, lifting weights with the lineman helped his durability...



Quote:


Simms began working out with the linemen before the 1984 season, having failed to stay healthy his previous four seasons. Over his next three seasons, he didn’t miss a single game. Where he was once known for being brittle, he became known for being tough: His calling card was standing tall in the pocket amidst a swarm of defenders until the last possible moment, the better to enable the Giants’ offense long-developing pass patterns, often run by receivers who struggled to get open. Then he’d stride into his throw, with the same go-for-broke assertiveness with which he makes points as a broadcaster, accepting whatever punishment followed.

“Phil is tough, he’s really mentally and physically tough. Nobody doubted his toughness and courage,” said Parker. “The one thing he did that everybody saw was stand in there and take a hit to buy and an extra second to hit the receiver.”

Added Benson, “He was gonna hold onto that fucking ball until the receiver was open, period. And he didn’t have the best of lines those first few years, that’s for damn sure. He was a warrior, that’s all there was to it.”

Aside from improving his durability, Simms’ lifting with the linemen improved team morale.


https://www.politico.com/states/new-york/city-hall/story/2013/02/as-hard-as-you-can-a-story-about-the-indestructibility-of-phil-simms-067223


obligatory Simms doing aerobics picture ..
Eli has definitely taken bit hits though  
RomanWH : 2/5/2019 2:27 pm : link
Never forget the 2011 playoff run especially against the Niners game.

Eli took a bunch of hits in that game ..  
Bluesbreaker : 2/5/2019 5:02 pm : link
Murray might not be 5'9"
Can See Fletcher Cox putting the big belly crush on him
full weight knock all the air out of him . Go play Baseball.
RE: RE: RE: I agree w the post  
JCin332 : 2/5/2019 6:01 pm : link
In comment 14288048 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 14287514 JCin332 said:


Quote:


In comment 14287324 Pep22 said:


Quote:


Eli, the opposite end of the spectrum, has helped his incredible durability by avoiding contact almost altogether whether it be an unwillingness to scoot even a few yards for a first down or hurling himself to the ground when he senses contact.



It's almost as if this guy doesn't actually watch the games...


Or you don't...



Wow you really are obsessed with me aren't you...starting to really be a scary stalker...

So your dumbass gif proves what exactly...???

That you don't watch the games either...???
RE: RE: RE: RE: I agree w the post  
Gatorade Dunk : 2/5/2019 10:24 pm : link
In comment 14288383 JCin332 said:
Quote:
In comment 14288048 Gatorade Dunk said:


Quote:


In comment 14287514 JCin332 said:


Quote:


In comment 14287324 Pep22 said:


Quote:


Eli, the opposite end of the spectrum, has helped his incredible durability by avoiding contact almost altogether whether it be an unwillingness to scoot even a few yards for a first down or hurling himself to the ground when he senses contact.



It's almost as if this guy doesn't actually watch the games...


Or you don't...





Wow you really are obsessed with me aren't you...starting to really be a scary stalker...

So your dumbass gif proves what exactly...???

That you don't watch the games either...???

I'm not obsessed with you in the least. Your complete lack of intelligence combined with your blind Eli devotion just amuses me, that's all.
Got it you're more intelligent than I am if it makes you  
JCin332 : 2/6/2019 8:12 am : link
feel better about yourself to believe that go for it...

You obviously have something lacking that you would be so obsessed with following me around...

Kinda chris r and David in LA like and we all know what became of them...

Over and out...
RE: Got it you're more intelligent than I am if it makes you  
Gatorade Dunk : 2/6/2019 8:39 am : link
In comment 14288640 JCin332 said:
Quote:
feel better about yourself to believe that go for it...

You obviously have something lacking that you would be so obsessed with following me around...

Kinda chris r and David in LA like and we all know what became of them...

Over and out...

A poster mentions (accurately) that Eli has, at times, fallen down to avoid a hit. You claim that he doesn't watch the games. I post a gif of that exact scenario happening, and you claim that I don't watch the games.

There are some very loyal Eli supporters here and I've had my share of back and forth with the best of them (Britt and dep come to mind) - at least they're logical. They're capable of recognizing that Eli has flaws. That some of the criticisms that he invites are warranted and do stem from things that actually did happen. You, on the other hand, act like if you deny those things, then they didn't happen or they're not real. It's weird.

Newsflash: burying your head in the sand in the interest of blind allegiance doesn't make you a better fan. As for your supposition that I have something lacking, do you really think you're qualified to be offering diagnoses when you can't even accept the fact that your favorite player is human and actually does have flaws?
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