Mike said Montana is the best super bowl qb of all time. He also said these debates are ridiculous and that annoining one player over another player simply based on the amount of Super Bowls they may have won is crazy.
Brady pretty much has, and more than once. Not a knock, just a fact. The only game where Montana failed to score 20 plus he still led the niners down the field to win the game at the end.
He never said Montana was better than Brady as a whole.
But I will say that Montana faced a much tougher environment for a QB.
Something else, too - Brady has won a bunch of close games in Super Bowls. 6 games by a total of 29 points. Montana won four by a total of 76 points. Dominant.
But I will say that Montana faced a much tougher environment for a QB.
Something else, too - Brady has won a bunch of close games in Super Bowls. 6 games by a total of 29 points. Montana won four by a total of 76 points. Dominant.
Exactly. Montana also won with two different head coaches or was Walsh still there in 89? I wanna say no.
The qb is by far the most important position on the field but we’ve gotten crazy here lately. Win a big game or two and you’re the best thing since color tv lose one or two and you’re garbage. There’s so much that goes in to the team game of football. The qb debate has truly jumped the shark.
the fans who criticize Eli "fools". He said at the Superbowl he spoke to Justin Tuck and asked if New England winning makes those past Superbowls mean much more.
But I will say that Montana faced a much tougher environment for a QB.
Something else, too - Brady has won a bunch of close games in Super Bowls. 6 games by a total of 29 points. Montana won four by a total of 76 points. Dominant.
Exactly. Montana also won with two different head coaches or was Walsh still there in 89? I wanna say no.
The qb is by far the most important position on the field but we’ve gotten crazy here lately. Win a big game or two and you’re the best thing since color tv lose one or two and you’re garbage. There’s so much that goes in to the team game of football. The qb debate has truly jumped the shark.
Seifert took over in '89 and won with Montana that year, with Mike Holmgren as OC.
In my attempt to be most unbiased in my praise of Montana I direct people to look at his body of work with Kansas City, not as much San Francisco.
Him taking down the Oilers in the '93 playoffs (in Houston) was special. The MNF victory against Elway at Mile High.
The '89 comeback against the Eagles at The Vet. '88 against the Giants in the Meadowlands. The 35-7 comeback and OT win against Archie Manning in 1980.
Brady has done some great things, but I feel Montana has had many more signature special moments than him.
It's the only way to equalize the eras - big signature plays, games.
Montana had tremendous mobility in terms of dropbacks, scrambles and sidesteps, and to my knowledge there has only been *1* shotgun snap in Montana's career. That alone should give him the edge over Brady.
Joe had his 4th ring by his tenth season as a starter, which was a few years quicker than Brady. Brady went from not even being questionably better than Peyton Manning to now easily better than Manning and now better than Montana.
Nothing has changed except longevity. If the decision by Debartolo was made to trade Young to Kansas City in exchange for Derick Thomas, things could have turned out differently.
People outside the Niner fanbase are largely unaware that the reason why Haley was traded to Dallas was because he was completely uncontrollable in SF. And the reason for that was because he hated Young and was pissed Montana was traded.
Montana should have had 5, maybe 6 himself had it not been for LM.
Somehow the debates between Marino/Rodgers/Young, guys with no rings/1 ring have to be fair against guys with 4 rings, but now a guy with 6 is unquestionably better than someone with 4?
Doesn't make sense.
You want to make Brady >>>>> Montana.......?
Complete that bomb to Moss at the end of 42 and win that game. Could have retired the next day as the GOAT.
Those two losses to NYG in SBs are forgotten about in the legacy of Brady. Montana never would have lost both.
But I will say that Montana faced a much tougher environment for a QB.
Something else, too - Brady has won a bunch of close games in Super Bowls. 6 games by a total of 29 points. Montana won four by a total of 76 points. Dominant.
But was that because of Montana or a better cast of teammates?
Yes they did! This post got me thinking. I had to go look up Joe Montana's all time record vs NYG. I was kind of surprised to see that he was 8-4. Ill say this....I remember EVERY ONE of those 4 Giants victories as well as I remember any games!
RE: Joe Montana was the best QB I have EVER seen. Â
...three best QBs I have seen, in no particular order, are Brady, Peyton, Montana, and Marino.
Francessa keeps harping on Montana is 4-0, and was the MVP in three of the games.
But you can't escape the fact that Brady has played in nine of them.........and he's 6-3. Sure the record could be worse (or better), but that's the record. Nine SB appearances is beyond impressive.
The funniest thing yesterday was when a caller said "Mike, this is all strictly opinion, right?"...and Francesca proceeded to say it was based on fact....LOL
This all is really opinion/debate............
RE: RE: Joe Montana was the best QB I have EVER seen. Â
But I will say that Montana faced a much tougher environment for a QB.
Something else, too - Brady has won a bunch of close games in Super Bowls. 6 games by a total of 29 points. Montana won four by a total of 76 points. Dominant.
But was that because of Montana or a better cast of teammates?
You could say better cast of teammates. The AFC outside of the Bengals and Raiders didn't threaten in the Super Bowl back then. Once you got in, you tended to do better.
But beating the Redskins, Vikings, Giants, Bears in the '80s postseason was quite a bit harder than beating Peyton Manning or Baltimore.
However it should be noted that the #1 offense has played the #1 defense 5 times in SB history. The #1 defense won every single time except in SB 24 when SF beat DEN 55-10.
Wade Phillips was the Broncos DC in that game.
RE: RE: RE: Joe Montana was the best QB I have EVER seen. Â
So why is Brady the only one that has 6 rings in this era?
At least one of the rings was acquired purely by luck.
Seattle has a timeout, time and the ball on the 1, second down, and an absolute nightmarish RB waiting to pound the winning score home.
But no.
Brady DID bring back his team from a HUGE deficit to beat Atlanta. But damn ... does anyone look at that game more as a Brady comeback than as a Falcons meltdown? I know I don't ... although I do give SOME credit where due. But DAMN, Atlanta.
Are there other moments that don't necessarily paint Brady to be the savior of all-time? Guessing maybe so.
Clutch as hell. Unbelievable poise under pressure. Weak arm, played surrounded by HOFers and for one of the greatest NFL offensive minds in history. Greatest ever? Depends your criteria. I don't think he was better than Elway or Marino who were his peers. No way to compare him to QB's in the 60's & 70's and after he retired. It's a silly discussion. QB play is so dependent on the other 10 guys and the coaching. For what it's worth Peyton Manning was better than brady his peer and it isn't even a close call in my opinion. Give Brady Peyton's HC's and Peyton Belichick and get back to me.
I don’t see what the big deal is in what he’s saying. Brady hasn’t played like the best SB QB of all time. He’s been there the most but he hasn’t been the best player in many of those appearances.
One of my favorite players ever to watch. As mentioned, he played in a far more challenging era for QBs. It's laughable the hits he had to endure versus the witness protection program today's QBs get.
So I have no problem saying he's better than Brady. He was mobile, had a very underrated arm (best long ball thrower I have ever seen), was a great improviser, and was nearly impeccable in the SB.
He's had incredible signature moments in NFL history - "The Catch" and "The Drive".
Brady is great. But give me Montana every day of the week...
If you are going to lose a game, it least Montana lost one of the greatest games ever played.
I've always wondered what the outcome of that game would have been if Montana didn't get broken into a million pieces by Marshall. One of the most brutal hits I've ever seen a QB take.
In today's game, that is a 15 yard penalty and automatic first down.
RE: RE: Joe Montana was the best QB I have EVER seen. Â
Montana's downfall were injuries. I think he won 4 rings before Brady did in terms of seasons played by quite a bit. Brady had a run-dominant team for the first 3 wins I think and tons of luck along the way.
Montana had Walsh. Brady has Belichick. These things don't happen in a vacuum.
Belichick, Lord knows how many they would have won.
I've thought about that, but I don't think Peyton works as well.
His arm wasn't as good as Brady's outdoors. Brady is a great, great bad weather QB. He can really come through the ball and whip it through the wind. So I don't see the success at Gillette that Brady has had.
Peyton was made for the indoors. Indy was the ideal place for him.
Yes they did! This post got me thinking. I had to go look up Joe Montana's all time record vs NYG. I was kind of surprised to see that he was 8-4. Ill say this....I remember EVERY ONE of those 4 Giants victories as well as I remember any games!
Yes but in the playoffs he was 2-3 vs the NYG. I believe it's the only team he has a losing playoff record against.
Another interesting thing in those five games is the winner won the SB four of those years. The only winner who didn't was the 85 Giants, and it was no shame losing in Chicago to an all time great Defense IMO.
Niners, Giants, Skins, the Bears with that defense for a few seasons, the Eagles and their defense. It was a war of attrition. Brady's never had to run a gauntlet like that.
But I will say that Montana faced a much tougher environment for a QB.
Something else, too - Brady has won a bunch of close games in Super Bowls. 6 games by a total of 29 points. Montana won four by a total of 76 points. Dominant.
Never mind survivng that Leonard Marshall hit in the NFC championship. Back in the days when you could hit the QB. Today that’s a PF and a 4 game suspension. Brady got hit I the legend ad they changed the rule. That was as good a clean hit as Ive ever seen to this day.
And as good as Brady is its amazing how shitty his division is hear after year. Literally zero competion for over a decade. Hasn’t hurt his stats at all
If you are going to lose a game, it least Montana lost one of the greatest games ever played.
I've always wondered what the outcome of that game would have been if Montana didn't get broken into a million pieces by Marshall. One of the most brutal hits I've ever seen a QB take.
In today's game, that is a 15 yard penalty and automatic first down.
Didn’t see this before I posted but they would suspend any player who hit a QB like that today for sure
Niners, Giants, Skins, the Bears with that defense for a few seasons, the Eagles and their defense. It was a war of attrition. Brady's never had to run a gauntlet like that.
Neither did the Niners. The NFC West back then was a bigger joke than the AFC East is now. I remember that era well. It seemed like the league couldn't do enough for the Niners. I can't remember them playing a regular season cold weather game. The one time they had to play Buffalo ( who were good then ) on the road it was scheduled for September. And as if the NFC West didn't stink enough, they moved the Cardinals into it.
First of all Poster can't even spell Mike's last name correctly. Second Its hard to argue someone going 4-0 in Super Bowl is not the best Super Bowl QB. In any case it is a difficult point given different Era. However one reason I think Brady's record needs to be discounted is the fact he plays in AFC East so it guarantees winning division every year and pretty good shot at getting home field and bye every year. So you only need to win 2 games to get to the Super Bowl period. Also sorry but losing the Super Bowl in a season you went 18-0 is damning.
Niners, Giants, Skins, the Bears with that defense for a few seasons, the Eagles and their defense. It was a war of attrition. Brady's never had to run a gauntlet like that.
Neither did the Niners. The NFC West back then was a bigger joke than the AFC East is now. I remember that era well. It seemed like the league couldn't do enough for the Niners. I can't remember them playing a regular season cold weather game. The one time they had to play Buffalo ( who were good then ) on the road it was scheduled for September. And as if the NFC West didn't stink enough, they moved the Cardinals into it.
The Rams won 10 or > games 5X in the '80s. And the Saints were actually good in the late '80s.
Niners, Giants, Skins, the Bears with that defense for a few seasons, the Eagles and their defense. It was a war of attrition. Brady's never had to run a gauntlet like that.
- From 84-88, the Bears were great and only won 1 Super Bowl. In the other 4 seasons, they lost twice in the playoffs to Montana and twice to Joe Gibbs' teams.
- From 84-90, the Giants were great and their 3 playoff losses were to the '84 Champion Niners, '85 Champion Bears, and the Flipper Anderson game.
- From 81-90, the Niners were great and 4 of their 5 playoff losses were to Parcells' Giants (3 times!) and once to Joe Gibbs.
Tom Brady is obviously great, but he never faced opposing teams or coaches like this in his conference... heck, not even in the Super Bowl. Montana had to battle through this AND won playoff games after he left San Fran.
It is not about stats or anything. I just remember that guy throwing while in the air, putting touch on the ball and weaving it through 3-4 defenders.
There’s you problem. You are using more than stats. Which is correct.
I’m sorry but without Bill B Brady isn’t getting 9 shots. Which is the number. He also certainly wasn’t the reason they won Sunday
Belichick, Lord knows how many they would have won.
I don’t care how much shit I take, i will go to my grave saying Peyton was a better qb than Brady. He also had a winning record against Brady in the postseason. Little known fact.
Brady is the greatest winner of all time. That’s an open n shit case. He’s got more pelts than anyone. But i don’t think Brady transcends the sport like Peyton did. Just my take.
They don’t compare to what Montana had with the exception of Moss for a brief period. Brady is the greatest of the past 50 years and most likely all time. I have no way to compare him to Starr or Unitas.
RE: No way. Do you see the offensive ‘weapons’ Brady has? Â
They don’t compare to what Montana had with the exception of Moss for a brief period. Brady is the greatest of the past 50 years and most likely all time. I have no way to compare him to Starr or Unitas.
This +1. His best WR this year was a former 7th rounder that played QB in college.
Don’t those house on NE defense deserve some credit Â
For Sunday? Watch the Pats play. It’s like 45 Brady’s. They make the plays when they need them, not just one guy. Head to toe, that’s the best run organization in sports, by far. The QB can’t have that level of impact across the organization.
For how the Pats scheme, they are very good. Everyone else looking for guys 6’4 and can run. Patriots target guys quick as hell tough as shit sure handed can get a foot of separation and won’t drop the ball on 3rd and 6 when they take a hit.
RE: No way. Do you see the offensive ‘weapons’ Brady has? Â
They don’t compare to what Montana had with the exception of Moss for a brief period. Brady is the greatest of the past 50 years and most likely all time. I have no way to compare him to Starr or Unitas.
Tell me all the HoF players on that 9er offense when Montana won in ‘81.
RE: RE: No way. Do you see the offensive ‘weapons’ Brady has? Â
They don’t compare to what Montana had with the exception of Moss for a brief period. Brady is the greatest of the past 50 years and most likely all time. I have no way to compare him to Starr or Unitas.
Tell me all the HoF players on that 9er offense when Montana won in ‘81.
It was the defense that carried them. Montana also won with some great defenses over the years. Something Brady has never really had
Both are icons who mastered their positions over a long period of time but played in different systems and with surrounding talent.
Both were coached by legends.
They were clutch performers who came up big when it mattered
I give a slight edge to Brady because Montana never won a super bowl having to make do with Deion Branch as his best receiver and also lost his job to Young at the end of his career
Completely discredits the importance of the other 52 guys, coaches, fit of scheme, etc.
This debate is crazy on many levels. To me, you almost can’t compare the two because the game has changed so much in the last thirty years. If Montana played today his numbers would be insane. At the same time, Brady doesn’t have Jerry Rice to throw to either. I think they are both great, but if I had a choice between both in their prime, I’d take Montana every time.
RE: RE: RE: No way. Do you see the offensive ‘weapons’ Brady has? Â
They don’t compare to what Montana had with the exception of Moss for a brief period. Brady is the greatest of the past 50 years and most likely all time. I have no way to compare him to Starr or Unitas.
Tell me all the HoF players on that 9er offense when Montana won in ‘81.
It was the defense that carried them. Montana also won with some great defenses over the years. Something Brady has never really had
Just wrong. Pats defense, #1 in points allowed 2003, 2016, #2 in points allowed 2004, 2006, #4 in points allowed 2007, #5 in points allowed 2009, 2017, etc.
Montana also had some great defensive support. The point is for you to say that the "defense carried" the niners, "something Brady has never really had" is completely wrong.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Joe Montana was the best QB I have EVER seen. Â
There is no comparison between the competition Montana faced versus what Brady has had to face. When Montana played the NFC championship game was the Super Bowl. Montana had to contend with the 85 Bears and the great Giants and Redskins teams. If Brady was hit today like Montana was by the Giants, Burt and Marshall would have been suspended for weeks. If the Niners had played in the AFC during that era Montana would have gone to the Super Bowl every year.
RE: RE: No way. Do you see the offensive ‘weapons’ Brady has? Â
They don’t compare to what Montana had with the exception of Moss for a brief period. Brady is the greatest of the past 50 years and most likely all time. I have no way to compare him to Starr or Unitas.
Tell me all the HoF players on that 9er offense when Montana won in ‘81.
Go ahead. Cherry pick one game. But, you actually highlight my point, Brady had eight Super Bowls with much, much less than Montana had in his other three.
declare the best QB of all time, it would be difficult to declare Brady the winner because Montana was a better SuperBowl QB and Peyton Manning was a better regular season QB. How can you declare Brady the best of all time when he isn't the best of either the regular season or the post season?!
the sb 49ers under montana beat a very ordinary bears team in 84 and 88 championship game, the la rams under jim everett and the 81 cowboys probably their stiffest comp. only one road game there.
the sb winning pats beat a 13-3 steelers team, a 15-1 steelers team, both in heinz field. a 13-3 chiefs team in arrowhead. Also peyton manning in 03. all better than any of the teams the winning 9ers faced.
the seahawks, eagles, both rams teams, and the falcons are better than the bengal teams and the weak broncos team (eagles and giants bothe beat them in mile high that year) the niners faced.
some of you are just too nostalgic.
RE: RE: RE: No way. Do you see the offensive ‘weapons’ Brady has? Â
It was the defense that carried them. Montana also won with some great defenses over the years. Something Brady has never really had
I’m not sure how old you are, but it appears you missed the Pats first three SB wins in ‘01, ‘03, and ‘04. Those teams were terrific defensive units and the offense was very balanced. Very run oriented. That Brady was not this Brady of the last ten years.
If you are going to lose a game, it least Montana lost one of the greatest games ever played.
I've always wondered what the outcome of that game would have been if Montana didn't get broken into a million pieces by Marshall. One of the most brutal hits I've ever seen a QB take.
In today's game, that is a 15 yard penalty and automatic first down.
Didn’t see this before I posted but they would suspend any player who hit a QB like that today for sure
Oh my god thank you guys!!!! I’ve said this before on this board (earlier this season) and someone said Marshall hit him in the back not the head so it would have been a legal hit in 2018. HELL NO. If that were a hit on Brady in 2018 they would have found a way to justify calling a 15 yarder, whether it’s “hit to the head or neck area”, “leading with helmet”, “hit on a defenseless player”, or “landing on the quarterback” they would have called a penalty. I mean case and point look at the roughing the passer call against the chiefs in the afc championship game. They barely even touched Brady on that play and got 15 yards.
Completely discredits the importance of the other 52 guys, coaches, fit of scheme, etc.
This debate is crazy on many levels. To me, you almost can’t compare the two because the game has changed so much in the last thirty years. If Montana played today his numbers would be insane. At the same time, Brady doesn’t have Jerry Rice to throw to either. I think they are both great, but if I had a choice between both in their prime, I’d take Montana every time.
Yep. There are many considerations. The era of game is one of them.
NFL convention is frankly riddled with contradictory plattitudes. We profess things like defense wins championships yet rate QBs, an offensive player with no impact on the defensive side of the ball, on the championship metric alone. We say things like football is the ultimate team game, yet award MVP to a quarterback nearly every year, and never anyone on defense side not named Taylor.
Montana and Brady are both great. They have amazing accomplishments. But IMO, nether were the best, only the most successful and the signal callers for the most superior franchises of their era. If I’m an expansion team starting from scratch and looking for a guy who cal elevate my undermanned team to early success, and one day to greatness, give me Marino, Elway, or Manning. Montana and Brady are right there with those guys, no doubt, however I see the latter as benefitting more from the superiority of the franchises they played for.
Montana and Brady are both great. They have amazing accomplishments. But IMO, nether were the best, only the most successful and the signal callers for the most superior franchises of their era. If I’m an expansion team starting from scratch and looking for a guy who cal elevate my undermanned team to early success, and one day to greatness, give me Marino, Elway, or Manning. Montana and Brady are right there with those guys, no doubt, however I see the latter as benefitting more from the superiority of the franchises they played for.
Peyton had a great football mind. But he was very fortunate to play indoors for most of his career. Indoors fit his skill set. He didn’t have a great arm and was nowhere near as good in less than ideal weather as Brady, Elway, Marino and even Montana (who played in windy Candlestick). I find it very hard to include him in these discussions.
Elway is the QB who gets lost in the sauce too much in these debates. Those first three Denver teams he took to the SB were very undermanned against the powerful NFC at the time. But just the way Elway put those teams on his back and literally carried them there was phenomenal. It was very fitting that he eventually got two SB wins because he kept that Denver franchise relevant for a long, long time. A tremendous talent.
discussion about Kyler Murray's size and possibility of getting injured, Montana took two of the hardest clean hits I've ever seen on a QB. The one by Burt and the one by Marshall, both which knocked him out of playoff losses.
His playing weight was 6'2" 205, so he was slight, but he faced some monsterous defenses and took some devastating hits that still impact him today.
The most iconic call to me was Summerall's recap of the Marshall hit. About 5 minutes later they showed Montana dazed, sitting down and Summerall says "Word from the bench - EVERYTHING HURTS"
Brady can’t get hit and the defenders aren’t allowed to hit the receivers any more. On the other hand, Brady has done it with a revolving door of skill players who wouldn’t get on the field on most of Montana’s team. He had HOF talent who turned 7 yard passes into 80 yard touchdowns. I would call both of them the greatest of their generation.
Niners, Giants, Skins, the Bears with that defense for a few seasons, the Eagles and their defense. It was a war of attrition. Brady's never had to run a gauntlet like that.
Neither did the Niners. The NFC West back then was a bigger joke than the AFC East is now. I remember that era well. It seemed like the league couldn't do enough for the Niners. I can't remember them playing a regular season cold weather game. The one time they had to play Buffalo ( who were good then ) on the road it was scheduled for September. And as if the NFC West didn't stink enough, they moved the Cardinals into it.
Ummm, the Rams were good back then, always down to split the regular season contests with the Niners
As far as how they fared outside the NFC West, Rams did ok...the '89 wildcard in Philly followed by divisional at the Meadowlands....both wins, then went to SF and nearly took a 10-0 lead at Candlestick before folding.
And the Niners embarrassing the Bears 28-3 at frigid Soldier Field with supposedly no cold weather pedigree in the '88 NFC Championship Game puts that to rest.
The Saints and the Falcons weren't great, but the Cardinals did nothing either and the Eagles only did partially better postseason wise than those two now NFC South teams. The Niners in their "down" year in 1991 with a horrific 10-6 record still missed the playoffs to both the Saints & Falcons.
Dwight Clark was a good WR, but his legend in football is more relegated to being a Niner legend (The Catch, retired jersey) than an NFL one (2 Pro Bowls in '81 and '82, and only one All Pro in 1982). Freddie Solomon another good WR that most people who watched football after the mid '80s would not recall (no All Pros, no Pro Bowls).
Craig arrived in '83, and had not become a true breakout star until '85, after the SB win against the Dolphins with his 1000/1000 rushing/receiving season.
Montana had Rice for 6 seasons, while Young had him for 8. Then he only had John Taylor for 5 seasons.
Brady had Moss for 4 seasons. Almost a wash at the #1 WR position, but you can give credit to Montana having a better duo.
Charle Young, Russ Francis, John Frank, and Brent Jones were all solid TEs, but none were Rob Gronkowski, whom Brady has now had for *9* seasons. Gronk is in discussion for possibly being the GOAT TE, while the others are known only by old school fans.
If you do the actual comparison, you will see Brady had some legit help as well. It's not like his entire career was the start of the 2013 season with Kembril Tompkins as his main WR....
On the defensive side of the ball, the only two HoFers Montana had were Lott for essentially his entire run, and then Haley since '86. Romanowski not HoF (and def a POS), but a baller. A lot of other very good solid players. Patriots had a good crew together of Bruschi, McGinnest, Seymour, Vrabel, Law.
Both teams had really good defenses, but nothing on the historic level of Bears, Giants of the '80s.
I think what gets lost in the discussion is that the two eras are hard to compare. You really needed solid players at all levels back then to win. There was no Belichicking a marginal roster to win a Bowl. No way that could happen. Wade Philipps was Denver DC for some years in the old days and could do nothing to stop the NFC teams, but has punked Brady a bunch of times.
Sonny Michel or James White would have been a liability on an '80s championship caliber contending team. The new era allows for so much more in the offensive game, you can get by with less talent than you could back then.
When it comes down to results and who you can trust Montana and Brady are very close to each other.
And as I said before, nobody talked Brady until he started racking in the #s. It took him longer to win the 4 SBs and break all the postseason passing records Montana set, and it was all silence until he did.
Montana: 14 TD, 7 INT in 7 conference championship games
Brady: 18 TD, 14 INT in 9 conference championship games
Montana: 11 TD, 0 INT in 4 SBs
Brady: 18 TD, 6 INT in 9 SBs
This is Bullshit. Montana is NOT better than Tom Brady... Â
...shit, he wasn't the best QB of his own era - Glass Joe was damned lucky to play in the system he was in - ONE season of the 50+ sack NYC winters Simms endured would've finished him.
SYSTEMS do matter more than QB's, and Tom Brady is NOT my favorite QB, NOT the first I'd pick with 2 minutes left in a Super Bowl, yadda yadda...
But for fucks sake, what MORE does one have to do to be proclaimed best ever?
Tom Brady is FAR away the best QB in the history of the game, period. Pains me to say it.
Money talks, bullshit walks. Fucker has SIX Rings.
six rings in a lousy, watered down league of enforced mediocrity Â
This reminds me of an old, hilarious ESPN2 article on who the actual all-time Home Run Season leader is.
Omitting 'juiced' players, Expansion Seasons, and ALL the season's before they allowed Black players, ESPN2 declared Harmon Killerbrews 39 HR season in 1966 the best ever.
Brady plays in a fucking freezing nightmare of a stadium, has to play in Buffalo and New York every year.
The sun shone on Joe Montana. LA, New Orleans, Atlanta. Mmm. Domes and sunshine.
Put Joe Montana in a freezing ass Giants Stadium and what happens? 3 fucking points, that's what happens. >:) The replay board showing Jim Burt pasting him to the turf while LT runs his shitty pass into the endzone.
Montana was a fucking cream puff. MANY QB's from any era would have done as well or better.
Can't say the same for New England. I don't like Tom Brady. Not a little. But I can't take much away from him. He did not have it easy, not for 18 fucking years he didn't. Maybe a few of those seasons weren't too challenging - but any long term fan knows, Super Bowls don't grow on trees. Except for him.
playing games in freezing South Bend, wouldn't have been able to succeed in cold weather? Interesting take.
Tom Brady wouldn't have done shit in the Meadowlands in January 1987 either because that defense was the truth and would have beaten the piss outta him.
OK, now you're either legitimately deranged or pulling a GoTerps act Â
Belichick, Lord knows how many they would have won.
I don’t care how much shit I take, i will go to my grave saying Peyton was a better qb than Brady. He also had a winning record against Brady in the postseason. Little known fact.
Brady is the greatest winner of all time. That’s an open n shit case. He’s got more pelts than anyone. But i don’t think Brady transcends the sport like Peyton did. Just my take.
Forget about giving Peyton BB. If you gave Peyton the 49'ers/Bears/Skins/Giants defense from the 80's God only knows how many rings he would have. Peyton was the best QB ever. He won 2 Super Bowls with different teams. One basically without his throwing arm and just his whit's and finally a stout defense. Which lends credence to the idea if he had had a great defense in his prime he would have many more super bowl titles.
starting from scratch, I'm with DJM. Peyton all the way.
You're entitled to your Peyton opinion and not gonna argue that but if you think Montana is overrated, you must have never seen him play. The guy was near perfect in his SB's, clutch, and never rattled. Throw in three SB MVP's plus going 4-0 in those SB's, and I have no idea how you could think he's overrated.
in an era where teams are more mediocre and parity is driven is much harder than being on the juggernaut dominant team(s) of the past.
Was playing qb more physically demanding then? Yes.
Was stat accumulation harder then? Yes.
But those are different questions than winning rings. The argument he won six in a watered down league assumes the Pats are not affected by these same circumstances that water teams down. In fact they are. They have not had the chance to stack and retain talent like some of the teams in the 90s.
It means Belichick and Brady are truly more valuable relative to their peers. Other than 4-0 in sb games and his gaudy stats, I don't see any argument for Montana being superior to Brady. In particular given Brady's comeback against the Falcons which is probably the singular best sb performace ever.
It means Belichick and Brady are truly more valuable relative to their peers. Other than 4-0 in sb games and his gaudy stats, I don't see any argument for Montana being superior to Brady. In particular given Brady's comeback against the Falcons which is probably the singular best sb performace ever.
Classic...”other than being 4-0 and having guady stats” in the SB. Sure, why belabor such insignificant accomplishments.
Next to Joe Namath, there may not be a more overrated QB in Canton that Aikman.
Breaking 20+ TDs passes in his 12 year career with that surrounding talent speaks volumes.
Oh, and that 1.2/1 TD/INT ratio is sublime.
It's fair to point out that Aikman was in an offense that did not emphasize the pass game. He was typically near the bottom in pass attempts. He was a gifted thrower and a smart qb who more than likely puts up much better stats in a different system in my opinion
Next to Joe Namath, there may not be a more overrated QB in Canton that Aikman.
Breaking 20+ TDs passes in his 12 year career with that surrounding talent speaks volumes.
Oh, and that 1.2/1 TD/INT ratio is sublime.
It's fair to point out that Aikman was in an offense that did not emphasize the pass game. He was typically near the bottom in pass attempts. He was a gifted thrower and a smart qb who more than likely puts up much better stats in a different system in my opinion
Indeed, Aikman was a gifted thrower. And he played with a great team on both sides of the ball.
However, that gift still basically produced a 1:1 TD/INT ratio and he only broke 20TDs passes in a season once.
Aikman got his reward with 3 SB rings. But he shouldn't have been awarded a gold jacket because his production just didn't measure up.
...Gibb's Redskins - prior to Plan B Free Agency, great teams benefitted from a system that made it much easier to keep core players.
I always believed that if the Free Agency changes that began in 1993 didn't shred the Cowboys roster, they likely would've had at least another Lombardi or two. (Thank God for Free Agency!) :)
That is what makes Belichek and Brady's reign all the more amazing. They managed all this while continually shedding their best players. Look no further than Nate Solder for an example. Their OL arguably IMPROVED since losing their best O Lineman.
who is suggesting it’s a small accomplishment? it’s a great one. it’s also the only angle i can see making the case for Joe M.
it’s certainly not based on statistical dominance relative to peers. Nor total super bowls. Or many other things that point in Brady’s favor.
Can you think of one big throw that Brady made that Montana couldn't make?
Because I can think of quite a few that Montana made - starting with "The Catch" - that Brady could only make in his imagination...
I recently re watched that play and wondered what the big deal was. He rolled out and threw it high. I get it was in the last minuite of the SB, but it wasn't that difficult of a play. I'm sure Brady has a ton of throws more impressive than that.
I would put Eli's throw to manningham as a much more difficult throw.
who is suggesting it’s a small accomplishment? it’s a great one. it’s also the only angle i can see making the case for Joe M.
it’s certainly not based on statistical dominance relative to peers. Nor total super bowls. Or many other things that point in Brady’s favor.
Can you think of one big throw that Brady made that Montana couldn't make?
Because I can think of quite a few that Montana made - starting with "The Catch" - that Brady could only make in his imagination...
I recently re watched that play and wondered what the big deal was. He rolled out and threw it high. I get it was in the last minuite of the SB, but it wasn't that difficult of a play. I'm sure Brady has a ton of throws more impressive than that.
I would put Eli's throw to manningham as a much more difficult throw.
Remind me of a play where Brady intentionally rolls to his right, gets up to full speed, stops on a dime, pump fakes to get two defenders off the ground, and then completes a pass fading away. Any pass.
The point is Brady is nowhere as athletic as Montana was and couldn't make that play in 100 tries.
What makes Brady so great is not the flashy plays. It's the exact oppsite. It's his ability to execute flawlessly on the routine plays. And to do that for two decades is fucking remarkable.
For example his effectiveness with the QB sneak. I'm sure he has a lot less yards than more mobile QBs but probably has many more first downs converted.
But what some Montana fans are saying here - I'd just like to remind them not getting to SUper Bowls counts against a guy too.
Further Montana takes hits - or his small body- it's not Brady's fault in tough physical games he is able to hang in while Montana is on his way to the hospital.
Physical defenses affected Montana too. The Gmen were 3-2 vs Montana in the playoffs. ANd Montana had the goat WR and Craig and at the time Walsh was considered a genius too. ANd Montana had a super OLINE for a time too and a better rb in Craig for a while.
But what some Montana fans are saying here - I'd just like to remind them not getting to SUper Bowls counts against a guy too.
Further Montana takes hits - or his small body- it's not Brady's fault in tough physical games he is able to hang in while Montana is on his way to the hospital.
Physical defenses affected Montana too. The Gmen were 3-2 vs Montana in the playoffs. ANd Montana had the goat WR and Craig and at the time Walsh was considered a genius too. ANd Montana had a super OLINE for a time too and a better rb in Craig for a while.
I won't debate one against the other but let me tell you what I think...
But what some Montana fans are saying here - I'd just like to remind them not getting to SUper Bowls counts against a guy too.
Further Montana takes hits - or his small body- it's not Brady's fault in tough physical games he is able to hang in while Montana is on his way to the hospital.
Physical defenses affected Montana too. The Gmen were 3-2 vs Montana in the playoffs. ANd Montana had the goat WR and Craig and at the time Walsh was considered a genius too. ANd Montana had a super OLINE for a time too and a better rb in Craig for a while.
Actually... They are in my top 4 but I put Elway at the top. He was the best QB I have ever seen in live action. He willed those early Bronco teams to those Super Bowls. I have Elway 1 and Montana 2... lol. But I see completely valid arguments for most of those that enter the discussion... lol
belongs to Ninester, claiming that Brady's "four years with Moss" is pretty much a wash with Montana's "6 years with Rice."
Hardee har har, Ralph Cramden would have chuckled at that comparison.
During the six seasons Montana threw to Rice as his #1, Rice had about 450 receptions for over 7,500 yards. In the "4 seasons" Moss caught passes from Brady, he had almost 260 catches for almost 4,000 yards. Well, not really! One of Moss's 4 seasons with the Pats - 2008 - was the year Brady missed with his reconstructive knee surgery. Moss caught balls from Matt Cavanugh that year. So let's recalculate that to Moss caught less than 200 passes from Brady, over 2 years really for almost 3,000 yards. Not comparable at all to what Rice contributed to Montana's career
Niners Homer boy calls that "a wash". Sure. Gotcha! Not exactly!!!
But what some Montana fans are saying here - I'd just like to remind them not getting to SUper Bowls counts against a guy too.
Further Montana takes hits - or his small body- it's not Brady's fault in tough physical games he is able to hang in while Montana is on his way to the hospital.
Physical defenses affected Montana too. The Gmen were 3-2 vs Montana in the playoffs. ANd Montana had the goat WR and Craig and at the time Walsh was considered a genius too. ANd Montana had a super OLINE for a time too and a better rb in Craig for a while.
I won't debate one against the other but let me tell you what I think...
What????????????
I thought there was a lot more of chatter pro Montana while not as much Brady.
I'll throw in pro Montana-- he gets out of the pocket and is sensational. I remember vs the GMen 1st playoffs he made a huge play by scrambling up the sideline then he faked he was going out of bounds then ran up the field for a lot more. Crafty bastard!!!!!!!!!
With Brady you can bust him up the middle without worrying if he tried to break out. Not so with Montana.
For me personal opinion Montana and Brady are the best two Â
He never said Montana was better than Brady as a whole.
Something else, too - Brady has won a bunch of close games in Super Bowls. 6 games by a total of 29 points. Montana won four by a total of 76 points. Dominant.
Something else, too - Brady has won a bunch of close games in Super Bowls. 6 games by a total of 29 points. Montana won four by a total of 76 points. Dominant.
Exactly. Montana also won with two different head coaches or was Walsh still there in 89? I wanna say no.
The qb is by far the most important position on the field but we’ve gotten crazy here lately. Win a big game or two and you’re the best thing since color tv lose one or two and you’re garbage. There’s so much that goes in to the team game of football. The qb debate has truly jumped the shark.
Yep. Feels like someone making an proclamation to promote talk radio and then fighting with people about his intent for 4 hours. How edgy.
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But I will say that Montana faced a much tougher environment for a QB.
Something else, too - Brady has won a bunch of close games in Super Bowls. 6 games by a total of 29 points. Montana won four by a total of 76 points. Dominant.
Exactly. Montana also won with two different head coaches or was Walsh still there in 89? I wanna say no.
The qb is by far the most important position on the field but we’ve gotten crazy here lately. Win a big game or two and you’re the best thing since color tv lose one or two and you’re garbage. There’s so much that goes in to the team game of football. The qb debate has truly jumped the shark.
Seifert took over in '89 and won with Montana that year, with Mike Holmgren as OC.
In my attempt to be most unbiased in my praise of Montana I direct people to look at his body of work with Kansas City, not as much San Francisco.
Him taking down the Oilers in the '93 playoffs (in Houston) was special. The MNF victory against Elway at Mile High.
The '89 comeback against the Eagles at The Vet. '88 against the Giants in the Meadowlands. The 35-7 comeback and OT win against Archie Manning in 1980.
Brady has done some great things, but I feel Montana has had many more signature special moments than him.
It's the only way to equalize the eras - big signature plays, games.
Montana had tremendous mobility in terms of dropbacks, scrambles and sidesteps, and to my knowledge there has only been *1* shotgun snap in Montana's career. That alone should give him the edge over Brady.
Joe had his 4th ring by his tenth season as a starter, which was a few years quicker than Brady. Brady went from not even being questionably better than Peyton Manning to now easily better than Manning and now better than Montana.
Nothing has changed except longevity. If the decision by Debartolo was made to trade Young to Kansas City in exchange for Derick Thomas, things could have turned out differently.
People outside the Niner fanbase are largely unaware that the reason why Haley was traded to Dallas was because he was completely uncontrollable in SF. And the reason for that was because he hated Young and was pissed Montana was traded.
Montana should have had 5, maybe 6 himself had it not been for LM.
Somehow the debates between Marino/Rodgers/Young, guys with no rings/1 ring have to be fair against guys with 4 rings, but now a guy with 6 is unquestionably better than someone with 4?
Doesn't make sense.
You want to make Brady >>>>> Montana.......?
Complete that bomb to Moss at the end of 42 and win that game. Could have retired the next day as the GOAT.
Those two losses to NYG in SBs are forgotten about in the legacy of Brady. Montana never would have lost both.
Something else, too - Brady has won a bunch of close games in Super Bowls. 6 games by a total of 29 points. Montana won four by a total of 76 points. Dominant.
But was that because of Montana or a better cast of teammates?
Yes they did! This post got me thinking. I had to go look up Joe Montana's all time record vs NYG. I was kind of surprised to see that he was 8-4. Ill say this....I remember EVERY ONE of those 4 Giants victories as well as I remember any games!
So why is Brady the only one that has 6 rings in this era?
Francessa keeps harping on Montana is 4-0, and was the MVP in three of the games.
But you can't escape the fact that Brady has played in nine of them.........and he's 6-3. Sure the record could be worse (or better), but that's the record. Nine SB appearances is beyond impressive.
The funniest thing yesterday was when a caller said "Mike, this is all strictly opinion, right?"...and Francesca proceeded to say it was based on fact....LOL
This all is really opinion/debate............
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Period. This era of NFL Football is weak AF.
So why is Brady the only one that has 6 rings in this era?
Belichick.
Just slightly worse defensive coaching and the Rams probably win this Super Bowl.
This was as much a Belichick postseason success as any I've ever seen.
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But I will say that Montana faced a much tougher environment for a QB.
Something else, too - Brady has won a bunch of close games in Super Bowls. 6 games by a total of 29 points. Montana won four by a total of 76 points. Dominant.
But was that because of Montana or a better cast of teammates?
You could say better cast of teammates. The AFC outside of the Bengals and Raiders didn't threaten in the Super Bowl back then. Once you got in, you tended to do better.
But beating the Redskins, Vikings, Giants, Bears in the '80s postseason was quite a bit harder than beating Peyton Manning or Baltimore.
However it should be noted that the #1 offense has played the #1 defense 5 times in SB history. The #1 defense won every single time except in SB 24 when SF beat DEN 55-10.
Wade Phillips was the Broncos DC in that game.
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In comment 14288195 Optimus-NY said:
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Period. This era of NFL Football is weak AF.
So why is Brady the only one that has 6 rings in this era?
Belichick.
Just slightly worse defensive coaching and the Rams probably win this Super Bowl.
This was as much a Belichick postseason success as any I've ever seen.
OK and if Belichick does a better job last year they win easy when Brady was LIGHTS OUT. See how that works?
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Period. This era of NFL Football is weak AF.
So why is Brady the only one that has 6 rings in this era?
At least one of the rings was acquired purely by luck.
Seattle has a timeout, time and the ball on the 1, second down, and an absolute nightmarish RB waiting to pound the winning score home.
But no.
Brady DID bring back his team from a HUGE deficit to beat Atlanta. But damn ... does anyone look at that game more as a Brady comeback than as a Falcons meltdown? I know I don't ... although I do give SOME credit where due. But DAMN, Atlanta.
Are there other moments that don't necessarily paint Brady to be the savior of all-time? Guessing maybe so.
So I have no problem saying he's better than Brady. He was mobile, had a very underrated arm (best long ball thrower I have ever seen), was a great improviser, and was nearly impeccable in the SB.
He's had incredible signature moments in NFL history - "The Catch" and "The Drive".
Brady is great. But give me Montana every day of the week...
If you are going to lose a game, it least Montana lost one of the greatest games ever played.
I've always wondered what the outcome of that game would have been if Montana didn't get broken into a million pieces by Marshall. One of the most brutal hits I've ever seen a QB take.
In today's game, that is a 15 yard penalty and automatic first down.
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Period. This era of NFL Football is weak AF.
So why is Brady the only one that has 6 rings in this era?
Cuz he's playing in an era that is much weaker genius.
Montana had Walsh. Brady has Belichick. These things don't happen in a vacuum.
I've thought about that, but I don't think Peyton works as well.
His arm wasn't as good as Brady's outdoors. Brady is a great, great bad weather QB. He can really come through the ball and whip it through the wind. So I don't see the success at Gillette that Brady has had.
Peyton was made for the indoors. Indy was the ideal place for him.
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our boys hit them hard...
Yes they did! This post got me thinking. I had to go look up Joe Montana's all time record vs NYG. I was kind of surprised to see that he was 8-4. Ill say this....I remember EVERY ONE of those 4 Giants victories as well as I remember any games!
Yes but in the playoffs he was 2-3 vs the NYG. I believe it's the only team he has a losing playoff record against.
Another interesting thing in those five games is the winner won the SB four of those years. The only winner who didn't was the 85 Giants, and it was no shame losing in Chicago to an all time great Defense IMO.
Something else, too - Brady has won a bunch of close games in Super Bowls. 6 games by a total of 29 points. Montana won four by a total of 76 points. Dominant.
Never mind survivng that Leonard Marshall hit in the NFC championship. Back in the days when you could hit the QB. Today that’s a PF and a 4 game suspension. Brady got hit I the legend ad they changed the rule. That was as good a clean hit as Ive ever seen to this day.
And as good as Brady is its amazing how shitty his division is hear after year. Literally zero competion for over a decade. Hasn’t hurt his stats at all
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In comment 14288195 Optimus-NY said:
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Period. This era of NFL Football is weak AF.
So why is Brady the only one that has 6 rings in this era?
Cuz he's playing in an era that is much weaker genius.
Welcome to hours ago genius. We are way past this and your answer has already been discussed at length.
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I'd go with Montana
If you are going to lose a game, it least Montana lost one of the greatest games ever played.
I've always wondered what the outcome of that game would have been if Montana didn't get broken into a million pieces by Marshall. One of the most brutal hits I've ever seen a QB take.
In today's game, that is a 15 yard penalty and automatic first down.
Didn’t see this before I posted but they would suspend any player who hit a QB like that today for sure
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Niners, Giants, Skins, the Bears with that defense for a few seasons, the Eagles and their defense. It was a war of attrition. Brady's never had to run a gauntlet like that.
Neither did the Niners. The NFC West back then was a bigger joke than the AFC East is now. I remember that era well. It seemed like the league couldn't do enough for the Niners. I can't remember them playing a regular season cold weather game. The one time they had to play Buffalo ( who were good then ) on the road it was scheduled for September. And as if the NFC West didn't stink enough, they moved the Cardinals into it.
The Rams won 10 or > games 5X in the '80s. And the Saints were actually good in the late '80s.
The Falcons were indeed bad.
Swing and a miss.
It is not about stats or anything. I just remember that guy throwing while in the air, putting touch on the ball and weaving it through 3-4 defenders.
It'd be hard to take anyone over peak Montana.
And BB...the GOAT of HC.
A perfect marriage.
- From 84-88, the Bears were great and only won 1 Super Bowl. In the other 4 seasons, they lost twice in the playoffs to Montana and twice to Joe Gibbs' teams.
- From 84-90, the Giants were great and their 3 playoff losses were to the '84 Champion Niners, '85 Champion Bears, and the Flipper Anderson game.
- From 81-90, the Niners were great and 4 of their 5 playoff losses were to Parcells' Giants (3 times!) and once to Joe Gibbs.
Tom Brady is obviously great, but he never faced opposing teams or coaches like this in his conference... heck, not even in the Super Bowl. Montana had to battle through this AND won playoff games after he left San Fran.
Damn right!
It is not about stats or anything. I just remember that guy throwing while in the air, putting touch on the ball and weaving it through 3-4 defenders.
There’s you problem. You are using more than stats. Which is correct.
I’m sorry but without Bill B Brady isn’t getting 9 shots. Which is the number. He also certainly wasn’t the reason they won Sunday
I don’t care how much shit I take, i will go to my grave saying Peyton was a better qb than Brady. He also had a winning record against Brady in the postseason. Little known fact.
Brady is the greatest winner of all time. That’s an open n shit case. He’s got more pelts than anyone. But i don’t think Brady transcends the sport like Peyton did. Just my take.
This +1. His best WR this year was a former 7th rounder that played QB in college.
this usually translates to a bye and at least one home game
This is critical in their recent success history.
Tell me all the HoF players on that 9er offense when Montana won in ‘81.
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They don’t compare to what Montana had with the exception of Moss for a brief period. Brady is the greatest of the past 50 years and most likely all time. I have no way to compare him to Starr or Unitas.
Tell me all the HoF players on that 9er offense when Montana won in ‘81.
It was the defense that carried them. Montana also won with some great defenses over the years. Something Brady has never really had
Both are icons who mastered their positions over a long period of time but played in different systems and with surrounding talent.
Both were coached by legends.
They were clutch performers who came up big when it mattered
I give a slight edge to Brady because Montana never won a super bowl having to make do with Deion Branch as his best receiver and also lost his job to Young at the end of his career
This debate is crazy on many levels. To me, you almost can’t compare the two because the game has changed so much in the last thirty years. If Montana played today his numbers would be insane. At the same time, Brady doesn’t have Jerry Rice to throw to either. I think they are both great, but if I had a choice between both in their prime, I’d take Montana every time.
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In comment 14288458 Boy Cord said:
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They don’t compare to what Montana had with the exception of Moss for a brief period. Brady is the greatest of the past 50 years and most likely all time. I have no way to compare him to Starr or Unitas.
Tell me all the HoF players on that 9er offense when Montana won in ‘81.
It was the defense that carried them. Montana also won with some great defenses over the years. Something Brady has never really had
Just wrong. Pats defense, #1 in points allowed 2003, 2016, #2 in points allowed 2004, 2006, #4 in points allowed 2007, #5 in points allowed 2009, 2017, etc.
Montana also had some great defensive support. The point is for you to say that the "defense carried" the niners, "something Brady has never really had" is completely wrong.
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In comment 14288215 Ssanders9816 said:
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In comment 14288195 Optimus-NY said:
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Period. This era of NFL Football is weak AF.
So why is Brady the only one that has 6 rings in this era?
Cuz he's playing in an era that is much weaker genius.
Welcome to hours ago genius. We are way past this and your answer has already been discussed at length.
what a jerk
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They don’t compare to what Montana had with the exception of Moss for a brief period. Brady is the greatest of the past 50 years and most likely all time. I have no way to compare him to Starr or Unitas.
Tell me all the HoF players on that 9er offense when Montana won in ‘81.
Go ahead. Cherry pick one game. But, you actually highlight my point, Brady had eight Super Bowls with much, much less than Montana had in his other three.
the sb 49ers under montana beat a very ordinary bears team in 84 and 88 championship game, the la rams under jim everett and the 81 cowboys probably their stiffest comp. only one road game there.
the sb winning pats beat a 13-3 steelers team, a 15-1 steelers team, both in heinz field. a 13-3 chiefs team in arrowhead. Also peyton manning in 03. all better than any of the teams the winning 9ers faced.
the seahawks, eagles, both rams teams, and the falcons are better than the bengal teams and the weak broncos team (eagles and giants bothe beat them in mile high that year) the niners faced.
some of you are just too nostalgic.
It was the defense that carried them. Montana also won with some great defenses over the years. Something Brady has never really had
I’m not sure how old you are, but it appears you missed the Pats first three SB wins in ‘01, ‘03, and ‘04. Those teams were terrific defensive units and the offense was very balanced. Very run oriented. That Brady was not this Brady of the last ten years.
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In comment 14288304 Vanzetti said:
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I'd go with Montana
If you are going to lose a game, it least Montana lost one of the greatest games ever played.
I've always wondered what the outcome of that game would have been if Montana didn't get broken into a million pieces by Marshall. One of the most brutal hits I've ever seen a QB take.
In today's game, that is a 15 yard penalty and automatic first down.
Didn’t see this before I posted but they would suspend any player who hit a QB like that today for sure
Oh my god thank you guys!!!! I’ve said this before on this board (earlier this season) and someone said Marshall hit him in the back not the head so it would have been a legal hit in 2018. HELL NO. If that were a hit on Brady in 2018 they would have found a way to justify calling a 15 yarder, whether it’s “hit to the head or neck area”, “leading with helmet”, “hit on a defenseless player”, or “landing on the quarterback” they would have called a penalty. I mean case and point look at the roughing the passer call against the chiefs in the afc championship game. They barely even touched Brady on that play and got 15 yards.
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Completely discredits the importance of the other 52 guys, coaches, fit of scheme, etc.
This debate is crazy on many levels. To me, you almost can’t compare the two because the game has changed so much in the last thirty years. If Montana played today his numbers would be insane. At the same time, Brady doesn’t have Jerry Rice to throw to either. I think they are both great, but if I had a choice between both in their prime, I’d take Montana every time.
NFL convention is frankly riddled with contradictory plattitudes. We profess things like defense wins championships yet rate QBs, an offensive player with no impact on the defensive side of the ball, on the championship metric alone. We say things like football is the ultimate team game, yet award MVP to a quarterback nearly every year, and never anyone on defense side not named Taylor.
Montana and Brady are both great. They have amazing accomplishments. But IMO, nether were the best, only the most successful and the signal callers for the most superior franchises of their era. If I’m an expansion team starting from scratch and looking for a guy who cal elevate my undermanned team to early success, and one day to greatness, give me Marino, Elway, or Manning. Montana and Brady are right there with those guys, no doubt, however I see the latter as benefitting more from the superiority of the franchises they played for.
Montana and Brady are both great. They have amazing accomplishments. But IMO, nether were the best, only the most successful and the signal callers for the most superior franchises of their era. If I’m an expansion team starting from scratch and looking for a guy who cal elevate my undermanned team to early success, and one day to greatness, give me Marino, Elway, or Manning. Montana and Brady are right there with those guys, no doubt, however I see the latter as benefitting more from the superiority of the franchises they played for.
Peyton had a great football mind. But he was very fortunate to play indoors for most of his career. Indoors fit his skill set. He didn’t have a great arm and was nowhere near as good in less than ideal weather as Brady, Elway, Marino and even Montana (who played in windy Candlestick). I find it very hard to include him in these discussions.
Elway is the QB who gets lost in the sauce too much in these debates. Those first three Denver teams he took to the SB were very undermanned against the powerful NFC at the time. But just the way Elway put those teams on his back and literally carried them there was phenomenal. It was very fitting that he eventually got two SB wins because he kept that Denver franchise relevant for a long, long time. A tremendous talent.
His playing weight was 6'2" 205, so he was slight, but he faced some monsterous defenses and took some devastating hits that still impact him today.
The most iconic call to me was Summerall's recap of the Marshall hit. About 5 minutes later they showed Montana dazed, sitting down and Summerall says "Word from the bench - EVERYTHING HURTS"
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Niners, Giants, Skins, the Bears with that defense for a few seasons, the Eagles and their defense. It was a war of attrition. Brady's never had to run a gauntlet like that.
Neither did the Niners. The NFC West back then was a bigger joke than the AFC East is now. I remember that era well. It seemed like the league couldn't do enough for the Niners. I can't remember them playing a regular season cold weather game. The one time they had to play Buffalo ( who were good then ) on the road it was scheduled for September. And as if the NFC West didn't stink enough, they moved the Cardinals into it.
Ummm, the Rams were good back then, always down to split the regular season contests with the Niners
As far as how they fared outside the NFC West, Rams did ok...the '89 wildcard in Philly followed by divisional at the Meadowlands....both wins, then went to SF and nearly took a 10-0 lead at Candlestick before folding.
And the Niners embarrassing the Bears 28-3 at frigid Soldier Field with supposedly no cold weather pedigree in the '88 NFC Championship Game puts that to rest.
The Saints and the Falcons weren't great, but the Cardinals did nothing either and the Eagles only did partially better postseason wise than those two now NFC South teams. The Niners in their "down" year in 1991 with a horrific 10-6 record still missed the playoffs to both the Saints & Falcons.
Dwight Clark was a good WR, but his legend in football is more relegated to being a Niner legend (The Catch, retired jersey) than an NFL one (2 Pro Bowls in '81 and '82, and only one All Pro in 1982). Freddie Solomon another good WR that most people who watched football after the mid '80s would not recall (no All Pros, no Pro Bowls).
Craig arrived in '83, and had not become a true breakout star until '85, after the SB win against the Dolphins with his 1000/1000 rushing/receiving season.
Montana had Rice for 6 seasons, while Young had him for 8. Then he only had John Taylor for 5 seasons.
Brady had Moss for 4 seasons. Almost a wash at the #1 WR position, but you can give credit to Montana having a better duo.
Charle Young, Russ Francis, John Frank, and Brent Jones were all solid TEs, but none were Rob Gronkowski, whom Brady has now had for *9* seasons. Gronk is in discussion for possibly being the GOAT TE, while the others are known only by old school fans.
If you do the actual comparison, you will see Brady had some legit help as well. It's not like his entire career was the start of the 2013 season with Kembril Tompkins as his main WR....
On the defensive side of the ball, the only two HoFers Montana had were Lott for essentially his entire run, and then Haley since '86. Romanowski not HoF (and def a POS), but a baller. A lot of other very good solid players. Patriots had a good crew together of Bruschi, McGinnest, Seymour, Vrabel, Law.
Both teams had really good defenses, but nothing on the historic level of Bears, Giants of the '80s.
I think what gets lost in the discussion is that the two eras are hard to compare. You really needed solid players at all levels back then to win. There was no Belichicking a marginal roster to win a Bowl. No way that could happen. Wade Philipps was Denver DC for some years in the old days and could do nothing to stop the NFC teams, but has punked Brady a bunch of times.
Sonny Michel or James White would have been a liability on an '80s championship caliber contending team. The new era allows for so much more in the offensive game, you can get by with less talent than you could back then.
When it comes down to results and who you can trust Montana and Brady are very close to each other.
And as I said before, nobody talked Brady until he started racking in the #s. It took him longer to win the 4 SBs and break all the postseason passing records Montana set, and it was all silence until he did.
Montana: 14 TD, 7 INT in 7 conference championship games
Brady: 18 TD, 14 INT in 9 conference championship games
Montana: 11 TD, 0 INT in 4 SBs
Brady: 18 TD, 6 INT in 9 SBs
SYSTEMS do matter more than QB's, and Tom Brady is NOT my favorite QB, NOT the first I'd pick with 2 minutes left in a Super Bowl, yadda yadda...
But for fucks sake, what MORE does one have to do to be proclaimed best ever?
Tom Brady is FAR away the best QB in the history of the game, period. Pains me to say it.
Money talks, bullshit walks. Fucker has SIX Rings.
This reminds me of an old, hilarious ESPN2 article on who the actual all-time Home Run Season leader is.
Omitting 'juiced' players, Expansion Seasons, and ALL the season's before they allowed Black players, ESPN2 declared Harmon Killerbrews 39 HR season in 1966 the best ever.
Brady plays in a fucking freezing nightmare of a stadium, has to play in Buffalo and New York every year.
The sun shone on Joe Montana. LA, New Orleans, Atlanta. Mmm. Domes and sunshine.
Put Joe Montana in a freezing ass Giants Stadium and what happens? 3 fucking points, that's what happens. >:) The replay board showing Jim Burt pasting him to the turf while LT runs his shitty pass into the endzone.
Montana was a fucking cream puff. MANY QB's from any era would have done as well or better.
Can't say the same for New England. I don't like Tom Brady. Not a little. But I can't take much away from him. He did not have it easy, not for 18 fucking years he didn't. Maybe a few of those seasons weren't too challenging - but any long term fan knows, Super Bowls don't grow on trees. Except for him.
Best ever.
I saw John Elway. THAT was the most skilled QB I ever saw. Bizarrely talented, played on far too many weak teams.
Troy Aikman was badass. He was tougher, better than Montana, IMO.
Tom Brady wouldn't have done shit in the Meadowlands in January 1987 either because that defense was the truth and would have beaten the piss outta him.
Next to Joe Namath, there may not be a more overrated QB in Canton that Aikman.
Breaking 20+ TDs passes in his 12 year career with that surrounding talent speaks volumes.
Oh, and that 1.2/1 TD/INT ratio is sublime.
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Belichick, Lord knows how many they would have won.
I don’t care how much shit I take, i will go to my grave saying Peyton was a better qb than Brady. He also had a winning record against Brady in the postseason. Little known fact.
Brady is the greatest winner of all time. That’s an open n shit case. He’s got more pelts than anyone. But i don’t think Brady transcends the sport like Peyton did. Just my take.
Forget about giving Peyton BB. If you gave Peyton the 49'ers/Bears/Skins/Giants defense from the 80's God only knows how many rings he would have. Peyton was the best QB ever. He won 2 Super Bowls with different teams. One basically without his throwing arm and just his whit's and finally a stout defense. Which lends credence to the idea if he had had a great defense in his prime he would have many more super bowl titles.
You're entitled to your Peyton opinion and not gonna argue that but if you think Montana is overrated, you must have never seen him play. The guy was near perfect in his SB's, clutch, and never rattled. Throw in three SB MVP's plus going 4-0 in those SB's, and I have no idea how you could think he's overrated.
Was playing qb more physically demanding then? Yes.
Was stat accumulation harder then? Yes.
But those are different questions than winning rings. The argument he won six in a watered down league assumes the Pats are not affected by these same circumstances that water teams down. In fact they are. They have not had the chance to stack and retain talent like some of the teams in the 90s.
It means Belichick and Brady are truly more valuable relative to their peers. Other than 4-0 in sb games and his gaudy stats, I don't see any argument for Montana being superior to Brady. In particular given Brady's comeback against the Falcons which is probably the singular best sb performace ever.
It means Belichick and Brady are truly more valuable relative to their peers. Other than 4-0 in sb games and his gaudy stats, I don't see any argument for Montana being superior to Brady. In particular given Brady's comeback against the Falcons which is probably the singular best sb performace ever.
Classic...”other than being 4-0 and having guady stats” in the SB. Sure, why belabor such insignificant accomplishments.
Next to Joe Namath, there may not be a more overrated QB in Canton that Aikman.
Breaking 20+ TDs passes in his 12 year career with that surrounding talent speaks volumes.
Oh, and that 1.2/1 TD/INT ratio is sublime.
It's fair to point out that Aikman was in an offense that did not emphasize the pass game. He was typically near the bottom in pass attempts. He was a gifted thrower and a smart qb who more than likely puts up much better stats in a different system in my opinion
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LOFL.
Next to Joe Namath, there may not be a more overrated QB in Canton that Aikman.
Breaking 20+ TDs passes in his 12 year career with that surrounding talent speaks volumes.
Oh, and that 1.2/1 TD/INT ratio is sublime.
It's fair to point out that Aikman was in an offense that did not emphasize the pass game. He was typically near the bottom in pass attempts. He was a gifted thrower and a smart qb who more than likely puts up much better stats in a different system in my opinion
Indeed, Aikman was a gifted thrower. And he played with a great team on both sides of the ball.
However, that gift still basically produced a 1:1 TD/INT ratio and he only broke 20TDs passes in a season once.
Aikman got his reward with 3 SB rings. But he shouldn't have been awarded a gold jacket because his production just didn't measure up.
it’s certainly not based on statistical dominance relative to peers. Nor total super bowls. Or many other things that point in Brady’s favor.
I always believed that if the Free Agency changes that began in 1993 didn't shred the Cowboys roster, they likely would've had at least another Lombardi or two. (Thank God for Free Agency!) :)
That is what makes Belichek and Brady's reign all the more amazing. They managed all this while continually shedding their best players. Look no further than Nate Solder for an example. Their OL arguably IMPROVED since losing their best O Lineman.
it’s certainly not based on statistical dominance relative to peers. Nor total super bowls. Or many other things that point in Brady’s favor.
Can you think of one big throw that Brady made that Montana couldn't make?
Because I can think of quite a few that Montana made - starting with "The Catch" - that Brady could only make in his imagination...
Nate Solder is garbage, so, yeah.
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who is suggesting it’s a small accomplishment? it’s a great one. it’s also the only angle i can see making the case for Joe M.
it’s certainly not based on statistical dominance relative to peers. Nor total super bowls. Or many other things that point in Brady’s favor.
Can you think of one big throw that Brady made that Montana couldn't make?
Because I can think of quite a few that Montana made - starting with "The Catch" - that Brady could only make in his imagination...
I recently re watched that play and wondered what the big deal was. He rolled out and threw it high. I get it was in the last minuite of the SB, but it wasn't that difficult of a play. I'm sure Brady has a ton of throws more impressive than that.
I would put Eli's throw to manningham as a much more difficult throw.
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In comment 14289716 hassan said:
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who is suggesting it’s a small accomplishment? it’s a great one. it’s also the only angle i can see making the case for Joe M.
it’s certainly not based on statistical dominance relative to peers. Nor total super bowls. Or many other things that point in Brady’s favor.
Can you think of one big throw that Brady made that Montana couldn't make?
Because I can think of quite a few that Montana made - starting with "The Catch" - that Brady could only make in his imagination...
I recently re watched that play and wondered what the big deal was. He rolled out and threw it high. I get it was in the last minuite of the SB, but it wasn't that difficult of a play. I'm sure Brady has a ton of throws more impressive than that.
I would put Eli's throw to manningham as a much more difficult throw.
Remind me of a play where Brady intentionally rolls to his right, gets up to full speed, stops on a dime, pump fakes to get two defenders off the ground, and then completes a pass fading away. Any pass.
The point is Brady is nowhere as athletic as Montana was and couldn't make that play in 100 tries.
But the point is to win games and championships.
Brady has done enough of that to match Joes career and have another HOF career on top of that.
And for the record, I always considered Joe the best until Brady just won so much to not given it to him.
For example his effectiveness with the QB sneak. I'm sure he has a lot less yards than more mobile QBs but probably has many more first downs converted.
But what some Montana fans are saying here - I'd just like to remind them not getting to SUper Bowls counts against a guy too.
Further Montana takes hits - or his small body- it's not Brady's fault in tough physical games he is able to hang in while Montana is on his way to the hospital.
Physical defenses affected Montana too. The Gmen were 3-2 vs Montana in the playoffs. ANd Montana had the goat WR and Craig and at the time Walsh was considered a genius too. ANd Montana had a super OLINE for a time too and a better rb in Craig for a while.
But what some Montana fans are saying here - I'd just like to remind them not getting to SUper Bowls counts against a guy too.
Further Montana takes hits - or his small body- it's not Brady's fault in tough physical games he is able to hang in while Montana is on his way to the hospital.
Physical defenses affected Montana too. The Gmen were 3-2 vs Montana in the playoffs. ANd Montana had the goat WR and Craig and at the time Walsh was considered a genius too. ANd Montana had a super OLINE for a time too and a better rb in Craig for a while.
I won't debate one against the other but let me tell you what I think...
But what some Montana fans are saying here - I'd just like to remind them not getting to SUper Bowls counts against a guy too.
Further Montana takes hits - or his small body- it's not Brady's fault in tough physical games he is able to hang in while Montana is on his way to the hospital.
Physical defenses affected Montana too. The Gmen were 3-2 vs Montana in the playoffs. ANd Montana had the goat WR and Craig and at the time Walsh was considered a genius too. ANd Montana had a super OLINE for a time too and a better rb in Craig for a while.
Actually... They are in my top 4 but I put Elway at the top. He was the best QB I have ever seen in live action. He willed those early Bronco teams to those Super Bowls. I have Elway 1 and Montana 2... lol. But I see completely valid arguments for most of those that enter the discussion... lol
Hardee har har, Ralph Cramden would have chuckled at that comparison.
During the six seasons Montana threw to Rice as his #1, Rice had about 450 receptions for over 7,500 yards. In the "4 seasons" Moss caught passes from Brady, he had almost 260 catches for almost 4,000 yards. Well, not really! One of Moss's 4 seasons with the Pats - 2008 - was the year Brady missed with his reconstructive knee surgery. Moss caught balls from Matt Cavanugh that year. So let's recalculate that to Moss caught less than 200 passes from Brady, over 2 years really for almost 3,000 yards. Not comparable at all to what Rice contributed to Montana's career
Niners Homer boy calls that "a wash". Sure. Gotcha! Not exactly!!!
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I won;t debate either.
But what some Montana fans are saying here - I'd just like to remind them not getting to SUper Bowls counts against a guy too.
Further Montana takes hits - or his small body- it's not Brady's fault in tough physical games he is able to hang in while Montana is on his way to the hospital.
Physical defenses affected Montana too. The Gmen were 3-2 vs Montana in the playoffs. ANd Montana had the goat WR and Craig and at the time Walsh was considered a genius too. ANd Montana had a super OLINE for a time too and a better rb in Craig for a while.
I won't debate one against the other but let me tell you what I think...
What????????????
I thought there was a lot more of chatter pro Montana while not as much Brady.
I'll throw in pro Montana-- he gets out of the pocket and is sensational. I remember vs the GMen 1st playoffs he made a huge play by scrambling up the sideline then he faked he was going out of bounds then ran up the field for a lot more. Crafty bastard!!!!!!!!!
With Brady you can bust him up the middle without worrying if he tried to break out. Not so with Montana.