NFT: Universal Designated Hitter being discussed for 2019 Season

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during a quiet time on the sports calendar.

well played Brodie.

What if the guy goes out and is just not pitching well and it’s obvious immediately? Three batters can do a lot of damage.

In comment 14288555 Oscar said:

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What if the guy goes out and is just not pitching well and it’s obvious immediately? Three batters can do a lot of damage.

Agreed. Way too drastic. Long overdue though with the universal DH.

and go back to playing real baseball.

Weren't there racial discussions of implementing 1-1 counts and the like?

Adding a DH to the NL is only going to further increase pitch counts.

In comment 14288570 Knineteen said:

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Weren't there racial discussions of implementing 1-1 counts and the like? Adding a DH to the NL is only going to further increase pitch counts.

Never going to happen. It will either stay like it is or the NL adopts the DH. The players union would never agree to eliminating the DH.

call the DH rule on a game by game basis. Maximize good hitting pitchers at home, minimize opponent's good hitting pitchers becomes a managerial decision.

That way every team gets to play both with and without the DH rule throughout the year.

but doing it for 2019 seems too close to the season. NL teams have gone about their offseason plans not expecting to need a DH. Do it for 2020, though!

In comment 14288600 Mike from SI said:

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but doing it for 2019 seems too close to the season. NL teams have gone about their offseason plans not expecting to need a DH. Do it for 2020, though!

Agreed - why make the change this late? Rosters are close to set already? Would seem to hurt the NL...

In comment 14288593 aquidneck said:

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call the DH rule on a game by game basis. Maximize good hitting pitchers at home, minimize opponent's good hitting pitchers becomes a managerial decision. That way every team gets to play both with and without the DH rule throughout the year.

That is a great idea.

I think if the NL gets the DL it may be the final straw with baseball for me. After 50 plus years as an avid fan I'll probably just watch it occasionally at that point.

In comment 14288606 steve in ky said:

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I think if the NL gets the DL it may be the final straw with baseball for me. After 50 plus years as an avid fan I'll probably just watch it occasionally at that point.

Same. I can't stand AL baseball for the most part. I love the strategy with the NL.

In comment 14288613 dank41 said:

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In comment 14288606 steve in ky said: Quote: I think if the NL gets the DL it may be the final straw with baseball for me. After 50 plus years as an avid fan I'll probably just watch it occasionally at that point. Same. I can't stand AL baseball for the most part. I love the strategy with the NL.

You love the strategy of watching pitchers strikeout and get hurt running the bases.
Been a baseball fan for just under 60 years and never want to see a pitcher hit again.

In comment 14288593 aquidneck said:

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call the DH rule on a game by game basis. Maximize good hitting pitchers at home, minimize opponent's good hitting pitchers becomes a managerial decision. That way every team gets to play both with and without the DH rule throughout the year.

That. Is a BRILLIANT idea!!!!!
Seriously brilliant.
It takes away the argument of “the DH will ruin the strategic moves thatpitchers hitting brings to the game” by having the manager make a STRATEGIC decision before the game starts. Anything that allows more second guessing is great for the game IMO.
Seriously,love this idea - coming from a guy who HATES the idea of the DH

Think about debates come playoff time. Also why would baseball do this now? They have players threatening a strike, why not use this as a trump card to sate their fat slugger delegation who may get a couple extra million. Trading jay bruce just became a dumb move if this is in fact true

but I never get the argument about people not wanting to watch pitchers hit, like they're some fragile organism who when you put a bat in their hand become a piece of glass.

but on the other hand, like to watch beer league softball players who mostly can't play the field, which is more than 50% of the game, bat 4 times a game.

Most of these pitchers were at one time among the best hitters on their team, and probably at least until college took regular at-bats. so between 18 and 20-something they became allergic to batting. Sure, they're not great at it since it's not what gets them to the big leagues, but they're not great at it mostly because the major leagues tells them they don't need to be.

Bottom line I think it should be consistent across all of mlb, for fairness in interleague play and world series, but if it's pitchers always hit or DH doesn't matter to me.

In comment 14288566 Trainmaster said:

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and go back to playing real baseball.

Where pitchers strike out regularly to end innings with runners on- or get hurt running the bases?

No thanks.

"Real" baseball is where you put the best hitters on your team in the lineup and have your pitcher focus on what he does best without wasting time and energy on the bases or at the plate.

In comment 14288566 Trainmaster said:

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and go back to playing real baseball.

LOL

In comment 14288602 Dan in the Springs said:

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In comment 14288600 Mike from SI said: Quote: but doing it for 2019 seems too close to the season. NL teams have gone about their offseason plans not expecting to need a DH. Do it for 2020, though! Agreed - why make the change this late? Rosters are close to set already? Would seem to hurt the NL...

There are about 100 FAs right now...

just another piece of the conspiracy to validate the DH position before Big Papi becomes eligible for the Hall:)

In comment 14288600 Mike from SI said:

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but doing it for 2019 seems too close to the season. NL teams have gone about their offseason plans not expecting to need a DH. Do it for 2020, though!

There are about 100 FA out there who will sign for next to nothing at this point.

Of course, you could always go get a Bryce Harper or Manny Machado and move someone already in the spot to DH.

You could also add Marwin Gonzalez, Moustakas, Melky Cabrera, Dietrich, Duda, Gattis, CarGo, Harrison, Holliday, Adam Jones or any number of FA still out there- most for a decent price.

In comment 14288593 aquidneck said:

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call the DH rule on a game by game basis. Maximize good hitting pitchers at home, minimize opponent's good hitting pitchers becomes a managerial decision. That way every team gets to play both with and without the DH rule throughout the year.

This is maybe the worst idea in this thread.

Think about the Yanks for a minute- EVERY team would force Sevy to hit, as well as CC- just to wear them out and get them out of the game faster.

Fans aren't at the game to watch Sevy swing and miss 3 times- they want to see Sevy blow it by guys. Wear him down on those 100 degree summer days so he's gone by the 4th? Brilliant. I'm sure that's EXACTLY what fans are paying through the nose to go to games to see.

Where do people find these ridiculous ideas and then pass them off as the best thing since sliced bread?

In comment 14288555 Oscar said:

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What if the guy goes out and is just not pitching well and it’s obvious immediately? Three batters can do a lot of damage.

Agree, heard it this morning before reading it here and I just started laughing in my car. Just a horrible idea. There are other ways to speed up a game.

but took another look at it a few years ago and have changed my mind. Watching pitchers hit is rarely ever exciting. I'd rather see better hitters face the pitchers. It's better action and more entertaining.

I'm happy baseball is finally waking up on this.

In comment 14288642 pjcas18 said:

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Most of these pitchers were at one time among the best hitters on their team, and probably at least until college took regular at-bats. so between 18 and 20-something they became allergic to batting. Sure, they're not great at it since it's not what gets them to the big leagues, but they're not great at it mostly because the major leagues tells them they don't need to be.

Light-hitting middle infielders were once good hitters at lower levels too. So what? That doesn't actually mean anything. Bumgarner is the guy anti-DH types love to cite as a "good hitting pitcher"...and his career triple slash is .183/.228/.313. Sabathia is another one - his is .212/.225/.313. Know what Mario Mendoza's was? .212/.245/.262. So the best hitting pitchers are maybe slightly more potent with the bat than the guy whose name is synonymous with hitting futility.

Why not have the DH in both leagues AND the pitcher hit? (in effect, have a 10 man lineup). You satisfy the Players Union, and you still have the strategy the NL fans love.

is literally one league in the entire universe that doesn't use the DH. That's including Little League, Babe Ruth, American Legion, Wood Bat Leagues, NCAA, MiLB and every country that plays baseball outside of the United States.

Want to know why pitchers can't really hit? Well, you see, because they're not required to at any point in their lives before they play in the National League of MLB.

It's so stupid and obvious it hurts. Make the DH universal. If you have an Ohtani that can do both, more power to you. You can save a roster spot. This idea that every other organized league in the world should reverse course to send baseball back to the dead-ball era is just absolutely bonkers. I can't believe there are real, actual baseball fans who have somehow tricked themselves into thinking that watching pitchers hit to a .115/.146/.150 combined slash line is somehow good baseball. God help us all.
Link - ( New Window )

But, for accuracy's sake, there is one other league besides the NL where pitchers hit - the NPB's Central League.

In comment 14288686 rich in DC said:

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In comment 14288593 aquidneck said: Quote: call the DH rule on a game by game basis. Maximize good hitting pitchers at home, minimize opponent's good hitting pitchers becomes a managerial decision. That way every team gets to play both with and without the DH rule throughout the year. This is maybe the worst idea in this thread. Think about the Yanks for a minute- EVERY team would force Sevy to hit, as well as CC- just to wear them out and get them out of the game faster. Fans aren't at the game to watch Sevy swing and miss 3 times- they want to see Sevy blow it by guys. Wear him down on those 100 degree summer days so he's gone by the 4th? Brilliant. I'm sure that's EXACTLY what fans are paying through the nose to go to games to see. Where do people find these ridiculous ideas and then pass them off as the best thing since sliced bread?

Well I think it's a terrific idea. If I'm the opposing manager I want Sevy out of the game. Make him hit.

Strategy.

In comment 14288686 rich in DC said:

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In comment 14288593 aquidneck said: Quote: call the DH rule on a game by game basis. Maximize good hitting pitchers at home, minimize opponent's good hitting pitchers becomes a managerial decision. That way every team gets to play both with and without the DH rule throughout the year. This is maybe the worst idea in this thread. Think about the Yanks for a minute- EVERY team would force Sevy to hit, as well as CC- just to wear them out and get them out of the game faster. Fans aren't at the game to watch Sevy swing and miss 3 times- they want to see Sevy blow it by guys. Wear him down on those 100 degree summer days so he's gone by the 4th? Brilliant. I'm sure that's EXACTLY what fans are paying through the nose to go to games to see. Where do people find these ridiculous ideas and then pass them off as the best thing since sliced bread?

With all due respect, why would Severino be burnt out by the 4th inning?

In comment 14288716 Greg from LI said:

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In comment 14288642 pjcas18 said: Quote: Most of these pitchers were at one time among the best hitters on their team, and probably at least until college took regular at-bats. so between 18 and 20-something they became allergic to batting. Sure, they're not great at it since it's not what gets them to the big leagues, but they're not great at it mostly because the major leagues tells them they don't need to be. Light-hitting middle infielders were once good hitters at lower levels too. So what? That doesn't actually mean anything. Bumgarner is the guy anti-DH types love to cite as a "good hitting pitcher"...and his career triple slash is .183/.228/.313. Sabathia is another one - his is .212/.225/.313. Know what Mario Mendoza's was? .212/.245/.262. So the best hitting pitchers are maybe slightly more potent with the bat than the guy whose name is synonymous with hitting futility.

my point was that pitchers are bad hitters because they can be bad hitters. they're expected to be once they become full time pitchers.

I already said I don't care as much about this as some people.

I just think it should be consistent. either way, don't care.

And the arguments people make are silly. "why so we can watch pitchers strike out or get hurt".

but you prefer to watch a guy hit who in most cases cannot field a baseball or throw a baseball or if he does it he's shitty at it.

It's the way people are conditioned IMO, not logic.

not wanting pitchers batting, but wanting players who only bat is sort of the same thing.

implications of the DH aren't that numerous though. So you might have a pitcher out an inning before he was going to be, or you might let your starter go another batter knowing he'll be coming to the plate the next inning.
I almost think the argument about strategy is used because it is really the only positive for keeping the DH, other than nostalgia.

You know what else is nostalgic? Eating Cracker Jack at a game, yet after you get past the age of 10, that stuff tastes like shit.

two dumb leagues! :)

So presumably he works at it....and yet he still sucks at it.

The Babe Ruths and Shohei Ohtanis of the world are exceedingly rare because having the kind of talent to both pitch well and hit well is exceedingly rare, not because pitchers don't have an incentive to work on hitting. Hell, go back through history long before the DH, and even then most pitchers were useless with a bat in their hands.

Honestly, I wouldn't even care if you just made the lineup the eight position players and eliminated the ninth spot, so long as we don't have to watch pitchers hitting. That's never happening, though.

in the offseason for a move like this. 2020 at the earliest.

In comment 14288717 JohnF said:

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Why not have the DH in both leagues AND the pitcher hit? (in effect, have a 10 man lineup). You satisfy the Players Union, and you still have the strategy the NL fans love.

Because the fans and the TV viewers want to see guys like Mike Trout bat more often, not less often.

Its a good, relatively pure game that has past it's prime, sort of like jai-lai and jousting

But the owners are scrambling to make silly changes that they somehow think are going to changes the fortunes of the game.....

no more basically free outs. overdue, in my opinion, but jamming it for 2019 seems a little hasty at this point.

In comment 14288758 bigbluehoya said:

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no more basically free outs. overdue, in my opinion, but jamming it for 2019 seems a little hasty at this point.

If the owners werent colluding in plain sight and instead signing hitters this wouldnt be a discussion. Union is trying to get players signed.

in little league and American Legion? Granted its been 25-30 years since I played... but is that a recent change?

In comment 14288824 MetsAreBack said:

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in little league and American Legion? Granted its been 25-30 years since I played... but is that a recent change?

Lol, they didn’t.

I still think the change that makes the most sense is to make all interleague games DH games regardless of park. Even if the NL team is home, there should be a DH for that set.

This way, AL teams never have to play without the DH at any point during the season, and NL fans who prefer the pitcher hitting can still have that against all NL opponents.

and Legion ball absolutely do use the DH. I've coached both for a decade. Just because the leagues use the DH doesn't mean that the coaches HAVE to use the DH.

Kids that young, usually the pitcher is still a good hitter. It starts to drag and change significantly at the HS level when kids start specializing in pitching. I've coached HS ball for the past 12 years and the pitchers generally aren't good hitters by the time they get to us as freshman or sophomores. They start specialization in 6th or 7th grade when they move to the "big" field and that's usually the end of their ability to hit.

we had one DH and it could be for any position, not just the pitcher. The same rules applied otherwise.

In comment 14288837 arcarsenal said:

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I still think the change that makes the most sense is to make all interleague games DH games regardless of park. Even if the NL team is home, there should be a DH for that set. This way, AL teams never have to play without the DH at any point during the season, and NL fans who prefer the pitcher hitting can still have that against all NL opponents.

I disagree. You still have the World Series issue and now you've also made it so 20 games instead of 10 for a NL team requires a DH plus if it gets to world series. So, at that point, NL teams need to start more seriously thinking about paying a "DH" a big salary.

Just make a decision once and for all - personally, i think DH is fine across both leagues.. but also definitely want some of these pace of play measures enforced.

Red Sox-Yankees games take 4+ hours and most playoff games take 4+ hours and that's just unacceptable.

YAJ...DH doesn't have to be for the pitcher.

There's no World Series issue - there would just be a DH for all of the games.

I'd prefer to just make it all universal, but there are still NL fans stuck in "tradition" who don't want to give up on the pitcher hitting and it seems like a fair amount of them at that. So, this is one of the only compromises that make sense to me if people are still unwilling to go with a DH across all leagues.

Most AL teams don't have guys who can't play the field at all a-la Ortiz, anyway. I don't think it would be a huge issue for NL teams. They have to use a DH for any game they play in AL parks now as it is. Adding ~10 games where they'd need a DH in a 162 game season seems fairly insignificant to me.

Something like electing to use it or not use it on a game by game basis is just too much and would never happen.

In comment 14288735 aquidneck said:

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In comment 14288686 rich in DC said: Quote: In comment 14288593 aquidneck said: Quote: call the DH rule on a game by game basis. Maximize good hitting pitchers at home, minimize opponent's good hitting pitchers becomes a managerial decision. That way every team gets to play both with and without the DH rule throughout the year. This is maybe the worst idea in this thread. Think about the Yanks for a minute- EVERY team would force Sevy to hit, as well as CC- just to wear them out and get them out of the game faster. Fans aren't at the game to watch Sevy swing and miss 3 times- they want to see Sevy blow it by guys. Wear him down on those 100 degree summer days so he's gone by the 4th? Brilliant. I'm sure that's EXACTLY what fans are paying through the nose to go to games to see. Where do people find these ridiculous ideas and then pass them off as the best thing since sliced bread? Well I think it's a terrific idea. If I'm the opposing manager I want Sevy out of the game. Make him hit. Strategy.

And more pitching changes by having to use 5 relievers to finish the game only makes it longer- yeah, games that go past 11 PM- YAY fans! But STRATEGY!!!!

Pitchers are getting worse and worse at hitting. Courtest of James Smyth, YES Network researcher.

In 2018, they hit .115/.144/.149 for a wRC+ of -25!

Here is how that looks over time.



More than that, a big problem with baseball is that advanced analytics searching for optimal production have led to an increase in strikeouts and home runs and a reduction in "small ball" and stolen base attempts (the league used to be far less efficient in stealing bases such that it was unproductive).

I support teams doing whatever they think will lead to more wins because that is what their goal is. But I find that it is less entertaining to watch as a fan.


https://twitter.com/JamesSmyth621/status/1093150506464219137 - ( New Window )

Mets would be happy with this move.They have Cano on the roster now. Perfect DH as he gets older.

In comment 14288671 rich in DC said:

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In comment 14288566 Trainmaster said: Quote: and go back to playing real baseball. Where pitchers strike out regularly to end innings with runners on- or get hurt running the bases? No thanks. "Real" baseball is where you put the best hitters on your team in the lineup and have your pitcher focus on what he does best without wasting time and energy on the bases or at the plate.

Don't like the DH at all. It is NOT all about putting your best hitters out there. If it was, why not just have separate squads for offense and defense?

In comment 14288720 Homersimpson said:

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is literally one league in the entire universe that doesn't use the DH. That's including Little League, Babe Ruth, American Legion, Wood Bat Leagues, NCAA, MiLB and every country that plays baseball outside of the United States. Want to know why pitchers can't really hit? Well, you see, because they're not required to at any point in their lives before they play in the National League of MLB. It's so stupid and obvious it hurts. Make the DH universal. If you have an Ohtani that can do both, more power to you. You can save a roster spot. This idea that every other organized league in the world should reverse course to send baseball back to the dead-ball era is just absolutely bonkers. I can't believe there are real, actual baseball fans who have somehow tricked themselves into thinking that watching pitchers hit to a .115/.146/.150 combined slash line is somehow good baseball. God help us all. Link - ( New Window )

You had a DH in Little League? Not in our league. Never heard of that...

If the NL is so pure then why do they use the DH when in American League parks. If you don't employ the DH all the time then don't employ it at all.

The AL can use the DH all the time and the NL can not. Let's play it that way see how long it takes for the NL to come around.

In comment 14288982 Jeever said:

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If the NL is so pure then why do they use the DH when in American League parks. If you don't employ the DH all the time then don't employ it at all. The AL can use the DH all the time and the NL can not. Let's play it that way see how long it takes for the NL to come around.

Is this a serious post? Is this really your take?

Every player has to be able to play defense and hit. The pool of available athletes is doubling every 25 years and it is unnecessary to pay niche players or over the hill vets. Keep the youth streaming through and eliminate the need for 10 year deals for players marginally above the norm.

The reality is that we will eventually see DH in the NL and we'll have more near 40 year old vets (or younger players who can't play D) on an expanded roster, swinging for the fences and eating up cap space (whatever the new CBA will call it).

In comment 14289031 Frank from CA said:

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Every player has to be able to play defense and hit. The pool of available athletes is doubling every 25 years and it is unnecessary to pay niche players or over the hill vets. Keep the youth streaming through and eliminate the need for 10 year deals for players marginally above the norm. The reality is that we will eventually see DH in the NL and we'll have more near 40 year old vets (or younger players who can't play D) on an expanded roster, swinging for the fences and eating up cap space (whatever the new CBA will call it).

Does every player also have to be able to pitch?

why should we lose pitchers to injury running the bases infrequently? And what do we gain from the spectacle of starting pitchers waving impotently at high 90's FBs? Nobody ever showed up at a ballpark and said "I'm here for the strategy!" Baseball has historically been far more flexible with rules. Heck, they chopped six inches off the mound because pitchers became too dominant.

In comment 14289036 YAJ2112 said:

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Does every player also have to be able to pitch?

Does every player have to be able to play catcher? Or shortstop?

Every player has to be able to throw and catch. And hit.

.

In comment 14289047 Greg from LI said:

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most catchers can't run well, so maybe MLB should have a designated runner for catchers, who is allowed to pinch run any time a catcher gets on base, but the catcher can stay in the game to bat and play catcher. I mean who comes to a game to see a pudgy slow guy run?

they can't run, what's the point of making them. I'd guess more catchers have been injured running the bases than pitchers running the bases.

the excuses are what I have an issue with, not the prospect of DH in the NL. Just say in the essence of fairness consistency makes sense. period. stop trying to justify it with AL reasons.

and I have no interest in watching their pathetic attempts at doing so. Plain and simple.

In comment 14289043 Jim in Fairfax said:

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In comment 14289036 YAJ2112 said: Quote: Does every player also have to be able to pitch? Does every player have to be able to play catcher? Or shortstop? Every player has to be able to throw and catch. And hit.

Throwing and Pitching are not the same.

They hit .115/.144/.149 at the plate in 2018 and are only getting worse.

You might as well pick a fan out of the crowd to bat.

giving them another way to get injured while undertaking a task that the vast majority of them are terrible at doing doesn't improve the game, it's a bad business practice, and the justification for it boils down to "we've always done it this way so we should continue to do it, even though this alternative has worked perfectly well for decades in the other league!"

In comment 14289054 Greg from LI said:

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and I have no interest in watching their pathetic attempts at doing so. Plain and simple.

why is that justification any better than someone who says I have no interest in watching a player who doesn't play the field. If I wanted to go to a HR derby I would, but I like watching players play defense and I'm not interested in seeing a player who can't play the field, bat 4 times a game.

I'm obviously playing devil's advocate, I've already said I don't care if the DH is added to the NL, but as I've maintained, my reason is more for fairness and consistency than any of these other opinions - and if the leagues got together and decided to get rid of the DH (never happen) and pitchers bat in both leagues I'd think that accomplishes the same thing.

One thing I thought about is and just a wild theory, but in 1973 the DH was adopted in the AL, I wonder if not having to bat has influenced tommy john occurrences in pitchers.

Pre-70's it didn't seem nearly as common and you had pitchers pitch harder (in some cases) or at the very least they threw hard and more often, and more innings, and seemed to not have the TJ issues that players today do. I wonder if its related. Of course NL pitchers would have a less occurence of TJS if that was true, but maybe it's pervasive through the minors too, maybe hitting and/or more time in the cage working on hitting helped strengthen the ulnar collateral ligament)

than your average fireballer throws today. Nolan Ryan was a physical freak. The rise of TJS likely has a lot more to do with year-round baseball in youth and with max-effort pitching than with any sort of changes to who bats and when.

In comment 14289066 Dunedin81 said:

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than your average fireballer throws today. Nolan Ryan was a physical freak. The rise of TJS likely has a lot more to do with year-round baseball in youth and with max-effort pitching than with any sort of changes to who bats and when.

I've seen no proof of any sort about why the onslaught of Tommy John Surgeries. Do you have any source for your comment?

and from what I've read pitchers like Ryan, Carlton, even Feller and even more old school guys like Walter Johnson had similar velocity to todays hardest throwers. No technology like today to prove it from what I've read though.

In comment 14289071 pjcas18 said:

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In comment 14289066 Dunedin81 said: Quote: than your average fireballer throws today. Nolan Ryan was a physical freak. The rise of TJS likely has a lot more to do with year-round baseball in youth and with max-effort pitching than with any sort of changes to who bats and when. I've seen no proof of any sort about why the onslaught of Tommy John Surgeries. Do you have any source for your comment? and from what I've read pitchers like Ryan, Carlton, even Feller and even more old school guys like Walter Johnson had similar velocity to todays hardest throwers. No technology like today to prove it from what I've read though.

Well, considering Tommy John surgery didn't exist until it was performed on Tommy John, you wouldn't see any history of it prior to 1973. Pitchers just retired when they had that type of injury.

In comment 14289072 YAJ2112 said:

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In comment 14289071 pjcas18 said: Quote: In comment 14289066 Dunedin81 said: Quote: than your average fireballer throws today. Nolan Ryan was a physical freak. The rise of TJS likely has a lot more to do with year-round baseball in youth and with max-effort pitching than with any sort of changes to who bats and when. I've seen no proof of any sort about why the onslaught of Tommy John Surgeries. Do you have any source for your comment? and from what I've read pitchers like Ryan, Carlton, even Feller and even more old school guys like Walter Johnson had similar velocity to todays hardest throwers. No technology like today to prove it from what I've read though. Well, considering Tommy John surgery didn't exist until it was performed on Tommy John, you wouldn't see any history of it prior to 1973. Pitchers just retired when they had that type of injury.

was it common? Do we know?

Anyway, I said it was a wild theory, but IMO one worth studying even if easily refuted.

The one common thing I've read is strength training and conditioning are thought to help reduce the chances, maybe was achieved through cage time - think of it like cross training.

In comment 14289071 pjcas18 said:

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and from what I've read pitchers like Ryan, Carlton, even Feller and even more old school guys like Walter Johnson had similar velocity to todays hardest throwers. No technology like today to prove it from what I've read though.

I can't remember where I read it, but I did read an article somewhere that said a scientific estimate at measuring Walter Johnson's heater came up with about 92.

In comment 14289041 Dunedin81 said:

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Nobody ever showed up at a ballpark and said "I'm here for the strategy!"

I get why some fans prefer the DH and don't care about any of those strategies. I don't understand how you can't comprehend that for other fans they do enjoy the strategy that goes along without it.

I'm not trying to convince anyone but for myself I like that it's your best nine against the other teams best nine. So right out of the gate with setting a lineup the manger has to weigh fielding and hitting. Not much decision goes into throwing out the best hitter in the DH regardless if he can't catch a cold let alone field a position.

Then in game the manager is faced with more decisions. Does he sacrifice with a pitcher, or let him swing away? Once further in the game he has to weigh how well the pitcher is pitching verses pinch hitting for him, and while doing so taking into account the opposing pitcher and bull pen. Then if pinch hitting does he sacrifice another player on defense and at the same time use someone on his bench by pulling a double switch? And all that repeats itself each time through the order only magnified by a thinner bench and BP.


Again I get why some fans prefer the DH, but there are plenty of fans that appreciate the beauty of having your best line up against their best and all the little nuances that go along with that. For myself; that is baseball and what I enjoy watching. For me it looses a lot when you remove the pitcher and add the DH.

Baseball is different from all other team sports. It's a slow paced game with no clock that's part sport and part chess match best played on a leisurely sunny day. It's never going to be a high flying scoring game like other sports and adding the DH doesn't change that only loses some of what makes it so unique from all other sports for a minute amount of additional offense.

IMO they should leave each league as it is, one for fans that prefer the DH, and the other for the fans that prefer baseball without it.

In comment 14289076 pjcas18 said:

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In comment 14289072 YAJ2112 said: Quote: In comment 14289071 pjcas18 said: Quote: In comment 14289066 Dunedin81 said: Quote: than your average fireballer throws today. Nolan Ryan was a physical freak. The rise of TJS likely has a lot more to do with year-round baseball in youth and with max-effort pitching than with any sort of changes to who bats and when. I've seen no proof of any sort about why the onslaught of Tommy John Surgeries. Do you have any source for your comment? and from what I've read pitchers like Ryan, Carlton, even Feller and even more old school guys like Walter Johnson had similar velocity to todays hardest throwers. No technology like today to prove it from what I've read though. Well, considering Tommy John surgery didn't exist until it was performed on Tommy John, you wouldn't see any history of it prior to 1973. Pitchers just retired when they had that type of injury. was it common? Do we know? Anyway, I said it was a wild theory, but IMO one worth studying even if easily refuted. The one common thing I've read is strength training and conditioning are thought to help reduce the chances, maybe was achieved through cage time - think of it like cross training.

I doubt there's any way to go back in history to figure out how many players it impacted to support either side.

In comment 14289071 pjcas18 said:

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In comment 14289066 Dunedin81 said: Quote: than your average fireballer throws today. Nolan Ryan was a physical freak. The rise of TJS likely has a lot more to do with year-round baseball in youth and with max-effort pitching than with any sort of changes to who bats and when. I've seen no proof of any sort about why the onslaught of Tommy John Surgeries. Do you have any source for your comment? and from what I've read pitchers like Ryan, Carlton, even Feller and even more old school guys like Walter Johnson had similar velocity to todays hardest throwers. No technology like today to prove it from what I've read though.

Jeff Passan's book The Arm talks about it. He acknowledges there is no single answer, at least none with any significant amount of data to support it, but that's what he highlights.

In comment 14288905 mitch300 said:

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Mets would be happy with this move.They have Cano on the roster now. Perfect DH as he gets older.

Good point. The article below suggests the Mets knew about this likely rule change prior to the trade

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There was enough movement on this behind the scenes already that it was a huge consideration in why the Mets agreed to take on the final five years of Robinson Cano’s contract, believing a DH would be in the NL by the time the last two or three seasons came along

NYP: Possible Rule Changes - ( New Window )

In comment 14289086 steve in ky said:

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In comment 14289041 Dunedin81 said: Quote: Nobody ever showed up at a ballpark and said "I'm here for the strategy!" I get why some fans prefer the DH and don't care about any of those strategies. I don't understand how you can't comprehend that for other fans they do enjoy the strategy that goes along without it. I'm not trying to convince anyone but for myself I like that it's your best nine against the other teams best nine. So right out of the gate with setting a lineup the manger has to weigh fielding and hitting. Not much decision goes into throwing out the best hitter in the DH regardless if he can't catch a cold let alone field a position. Then in game the manager is faced with more decisions. Does he sacrifice with a pitcher, or let him swing away? Once further in the game he has to weigh how well the pitcher is pitching verses pinch hitting for him, and while doing so taking into account the opposing pitcher and bull pen. Then if pinch hitting does he sacrifice another player on defense and at the same time use someone on his bench by pulling a double switch? And all that repeats itself each time through the order only magnified by a thinner bench and BP. Again I get why some fans prefer the DH, but there are plenty of fans that appreciate the beauty of having your best line up against their best and all the little nuances that go along with that. For myself; that is baseball and what I enjoy watching. For me it looses a lot when you remove the pitcher and add the DH. Baseball is different from all other team sports. It's a slow paced game with no clock that's part sport and part chess match best played on a leisurely sunny day. It's never going to be a high flying scoring game like other sports and adding the DH doesn't change that only loses some of what makes it so unique from all other sports for a minute amount of additional offense. IMO they should leave each league as it is, one for fans that prefer the DH, and the other for the fans that prefer baseball without it.

Steve, I respect you and I respect what you're saying. But to the extent that strategy has an outsized role to play, at this point it is so data-driven that even longtime fans are only grasping a part of it. Strategy today is subtle changes in defensive positioning based on a count, it's analytically-driven pitch sequencing, a whole bunch of things that we struggle to acknowledge. And the more overt new strategies, things like openers, are pissing off the curmudgeons anyway. I love baseball, I love the pace, I love watching in person, and to an extent I enjoy strategy too, but it's not high on my list of reasons I go to a ballgame.

In comment 14289093 Dunedin81 said:

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In comment 14289086 steve in ky said: Quote: In comment 14289041 Dunedin81 said: Quote: Nobody ever showed up at a ballpark and said "I'm here for the strategy!" I get why some fans prefer the DH and don't care about any of those strategies. I don't understand how you can't comprehend that for other fans they do enjoy the strategy that goes along without it. I'm not trying to convince anyone but for myself I like that it's your best nine against the other teams best nine. So right out of the gate with setting a lineup the manger has to weigh fielding and hitting. Not much decision goes into throwing out the best hitter in the DH regardless if he can't catch a cold let alone field a position. Then in game the manager is faced with more decisions. Does he sacrifice with a pitcher, or let him swing away? Once further in the game he has to weigh how well the pitcher is pitching verses pinch hitting for him, and while doing so taking into account the opposing pitcher and bull pen. Then if pinch hitting does he sacrifice another player on defense and at the same time use someone on his bench by pulling a double switch? And all that repeats itself each time through the order only magnified by a thinner bench and BP. Again I get why some fans prefer the DH, but there are plenty of fans that appreciate the beauty of having your best line up against their best and all the little nuances that go along with that. For myself; that is baseball and what I enjoy watching. For me it looses a lot when you remove the pitcher and add the DH. Baseball is different from all other team sports. It's a slow paced game with no clock that's part sport and part chess match best played on a leisurely sunny day. It's never going to be a high flying scoring game like other sports and adding the DH doesn't change that only loses some of what makes it so unique from all other sports for a minute amount of additional offense. IMO they should leave each league as it is, one for fans that prefer the DH, and the other for the fans that prefer baseball without it. Steve, I respect you and I respect what you're saying. But to the extent that strategy has an outsized role to play, at this point it is so data-driven that even longtime fans are only grasping a part of it. Strategy today is subtle changes in defensive positioning based on a count, it's analytically-driven pitch sequencing, a whole bunch of things that we struggle to acknowledge. And the more overt new strategies, things like openers, are pissing off the curmudgeons anyway. I love baseball, I love the pace, I love watching in person, and to an extent I enjoy strategy too, but it's not high on my list of reasons I go to a ballgame.

I know you are a very smart baseball fan, and I equally respect your view and agree with you about what analytics is doing to the game. I guess for myself adding the DH to the NL would be the last straw of many. It will just have changed too much from what I love. I guess I must be one of the baseball curmudgeons haha

I have been an avid BB fans since the 1960's, and perhaps it will change over time, but I probably won't watch other than occasionally once this happens.

In comment 14288841 YAJ2112 said:

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we had one DH and it could be for any position, not just the pitcher. The same rules applied otherwise.

Yep. Back in 1977 I was one of 3 juniors on our senior heavy HS team that made it to the state semi-finals. In the 4th game of the season our starting second baseman broke his arm and I became the starter. Whichever one of our 2 man pitching crew was not starting that day DH’ed for me. They were better hitters than I was at that time and as long as we won I couldn’t have cared less.

In comment 14289057 PaulBlakeTSU said:

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They hit .115/.144/.149 at the plate in 2018 and are only getting worse. You might as well pick a fan out of the crowd to bat.

Do you think the fact that bullpens are being used earlier in games, leading to more pitchers having to hit, who normally never had, is partially bringing down the average?

Here's the Fangraphs hitting leaderboard for pitchers with at least 40 PAs, which likely excludes any relievers. It's....not good.
Link - ( New Window )

rule that in extras, a runner would start on 2nd base? Talk about moronic.

In comment 14289172 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:

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rule that in extras, a runner would start on 2nd base? Talk about moronic.

For spring training and the all-star game.

In comment 14289086 steve in ky said:

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In comment 14289041 Dunedin81 said: Quote: Nobody ever showed up at a ballpark and said "I'm here for the strategy!" I get why some fans prefer the DH and don't care about any of those strategies. I don't understand how you can't comprehend that for other fans they do enjoy the strategy that goes along without it. I'm not trying to convince anyone but for myself I like that it's your best nine against the other teams best nine. So right out of the gate with setting a lineup the manger has to weigh fielding and hitting. Not much decision goes into throwing out the best hitter in the DH regardless if he can't catch a cold let alone field a position. Then in game the manager is faced with more decisions. Does he sacrifice with a pitcher, or let him swing away? Once further in the game he has to weigh how well the pitcher is pitching verses pinch hitting for him, and while doing so taking into account the opposing pitcher and bull pen. Then if pinch hitting does he sacrifice another player on defense and at the same time use someone on his bench by pulling a double switch? And all that repeats itself each time through the order only magnified by a thinner bench and BP. Again I get why some fans prefer the DH, but there are plenty of fans that appreciate the beauty of having your best line up against their best and all the little nuances that go along with that. For myself; that is baseball and what I enjoy watching. For me it looses a lot when you remove the pitcher and add the DH. Baseball is different from all other team sports. It's a slow paced game with no clock that's part sport and part chess match best played on a leisurely sunny day. It's never going to be a high flying scoring game like other sports and adding the DH doesn't change that only loses some of what makes it so unique from all other sports for a minute amount of additional offense. IMO they should leave each league as it is, one for fans that prefer the DH, and the other for the fans that prefer baseball without it.

This is exactly how I feel. I would prefer the AL to drop the DL, but it is what it is I suppose.

that does not DH, to my knowledge. Pros, international (Korea, Japan, Mexico, the winter leagues), college...a few exceptions, but they're rare

In comment 14289126 JayBinQueens said:

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In comment 14289057 PaulBlakeTSU said: Quote: They hit .115/.144/.149 at the plate in 2018 and are only getting worse. You might as well pick a fan out of the crowd to bat. Do you think the fact that bullpens are being used earlier in games, leading to more pitchers having to hit, who normally never had, is partially bringing down the average?

not to mention that the RPs rarely hit, they get pinch hit for so it's like a DH anyway.

doesn't come into play:

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Do you think the fact that bullpens are being used earlier in games, leading to more pitchers having to hit, who normally never had, is partially bringing down the average?

From the 6th inning on, relievers on teams that are tied or losing bat an average of less than once in every 7 games.

In comment 14289587 Dunedin81 said:

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that does not DH, to my knowledge. Pros, international (Korea, Japan, Mexico, the winter leagues), college...a few exceptions, but they're rare

The only other no DH league besides the NL is the Central League in Japan

In comment 14289172 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:

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rule that in extras, a runner would start on 2nd base? Talk about moronic.

Whats moronic is that after 10 innings, regular season games can't end in a tie. Why the fuck not? Football plays 1/10th the number of regular season games and no one bats an eye when the Browns and Steelers tie...

Not only are the 16 inning marathons so long and played in front of 5000 fans by the end... they tax bullpens and put yet more stress on player bodies.

Also, for the Mets, it would give Alonso a place in the lineup while he continues to learn how to play 1st base.

I can see why the players, or at least their union, would want it, due to the $. But god it's a dull product with the DH, it's basically beer league softball rules.

probably more than almost any other NL team with Alonso, Cano, and Cespedes.

they'll stop watching baseball if the NL adds the DH don't watch a lot of baseball right now. Just find it hard to believe that people are really tuning in to see pitchers hit. A lot of people saying how the NL has "more strategy" are the same people complaining about the shift, the use of "openers," fly ball revolution, etc.

It's not really about whether the merits of any particular strategy or rule, it's just anti-change. Some people just complain about any change. There was BBI outrage when the NFL moved the extra point back a few yards.

The worst reason to keep doing something is "because that's the way we've always done it."

they should pitch to them like it's beer league softball. Or, perhaps they could set up a tee for them to hit off.

In comment 14289661 schabadoo said:

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I can see why the players, or at least their union, would want it, due to the $. But god it's a dull product with the DH, it's basically beer league softball rules.

those 4-5 pitcher at bats per game before the pinch hitter parade and the odd double switch every couple of games make the game INFINITELY more exciting, amirite?

is to flip them to see if the issue is that with the actual rule proposal or just being against change. Imagine if when baseball was created, the rule was that pitchers didn't hit and has a designated hitter for them, and that lasted for decades and was ingrained as the rule.

If a rule proposal were brought up to eliminate the DH and force these offensively-challenged pitchers to hit, would most be in favor of it?

No, it's not that. The game would be more like softball and ten active players than baseball.

Just make the big move and have an offensive and defensive lineup like in football; any nine in the lineup can bat.

this yesterday, I can't find it but it showed many of the worst position players and their OPS's over 1,000 or more AB's and how bad they were. It included Pujols, Chris Davis I think. I forget who else, a lot of "household" names.

the tweet showed the worst 15 or 20 hitters over their last 1000 at bats and said fans opposed to pitchers hitting are ok with 1000 plus at-bats of awful hitting from position players, but not 2 - 3 per game for a pitcher.

just another lens to view it from, fans are very conditioned.

changing one place in the batting lineup "more like softball"??

You know what is very much like softball? Utilizing a shift. Attempting to get batters to hit pop-ups.

These discussions about softball always take a negative tone too. Because a pitcher is replaced by a better batter, it's now compared to beer-bellied guys?

Back in my Grandpa's day, a pitcher could throw both games of a double-header. These guys today are pussies, so why should I watch a bunch of divas!!!

That's the point I've been making. Chris Davis had a monumentally bad season last year, historically bad. Yet, were he a pitcher, he'd be the 5th best hitting pitcher in baseball with at least 40 PAs. Even with only 10 PAs,he only drops to #10.

In comment 14289750 Greg from LI said:

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That's the point I've been making. Chris Davis had a monumentally bad season last year, historically bad. Yet, were he a pitcher, he'd be the 5th best hitting pitcher in baseball with at least 40 PAs. Even with only 10 PAs,he only drops to #10.

I am not debating this point I agree with you, but then why don't fans say "who wants to to go the ballpark and watch Chris Davis hit 4 times a game?" when he's as bad as a pitcher. And he wasn't even the worst in the tweet, I thought Pujols was worse and many others. Over their last 1000 plus at-bats.

My point, again, is I think the leagues should be consistent.

I think the fans who say "who wants to see pitchers bat, they could get hurt"

or the fans who say

"who wants to watch a softball game"

are both using their opinions to shape the game they want to see and neither really has more merit than the other.

but the leagues should be the same for fairness and consistency.

I definitely think AL teams have an advantage when competing interleague because they build their rosters with a DH in mind, not using one ten games per year or so and just throwing someone in that spot.

Two question marks. Odd.

But yeah, sure seems like a fat lazy move designed to keep players like David Ortiz active well passed their ability to do anything other than hit.

seasons in baseball history this year, going
.168/.243/.296.

It was horrifically bad. He kept playing because he had a huge contract and the Orioles were tanking, and because he at one point was a good hitter.

Pitchers on AVERAGE hit
.115/.144/.149

That's not even in the same universe of ineptitude as Chris Davis.

Comparing the average pitcher to an all-time bad season by one player doesn't make any sense.

It would make more sense to say "imagine making Chris Davis significantly worse than he was last season and putting him on every team playing in every game."

again, to avoid further confusion, is not comparing Chris Davis'one season to pitchers (or any seasons really).

It was mentioning a tweet (I wish I could find it) that showed a list of players and their OPS over 1000 at-bats (+) so two seasons or more in some cases, of the worst position players.

and they were unquestionably awful, Davis was one of them, Pujols was another.

And it was really questioning the people who say "no one goes to the stadium to see pitchers hit" crowd.

when no one also goes to the stadium to see guys who bat regularly OPS .300 or whatever it is (not to be compared with a pitcher, but evaluated as awful in its own right)

In fact, if you're being honest and not biased it's probably worse seeing a position player be awful for two years than a pitcher 2 to 3 times a game, who you expect to be bad, be awful.

In comment 14289672 Metnut said:

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they'll stop watching baseball if the NL adds the DH don't watch a lot of baseball right now.

And you would be wrong. I watch close to all 162 Mets games each season, have for years (been a fan since the 1960's). If the NL gets the DH I'm guessing I'll go to just catching an occasional game each year. At least it will save me some money from buying MLB extra inning each season.

In comment 14289962 steve in ky said:

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In comment 14289672 Metnut said: Quote: they'll stop watching baseball if the NL adds the DH don't watch a lot of baseball right now. And you would be wrong. I watch close to all 162 Mets games each season, have for years (been a fan since the 1960's). If the NL gets the DH I'm guessing I'll go to just catching an occasional game each year. At least it will save me some money from buying MLB extra inning each season.

Then I think you're being ridiculous but hey, we all have limited time so do what you like.

the pitchers who are so, so, so bad-- so much worse than even the worst seasons by position players-- are expected to be as bad as they are. So what is that accomplishing? It's a charade.

The global talent pool and better training methods have made pitchers far more specialized than ever before. They are throwing harder than ever before with more relievers available to throw harder than ever before. Hitting is really damn hard, and that is for guys who play every day where hitting is the top priority.

It's even harder for pitchers to hit who only get up once every five games. It has also made it harder for a pitcher to make the majors. As such, the priority for pitchers who want to make MLB is to focus exclusively on pitching. Unless you have freaks like Shohei Otani, pitchers aren't advancing and getting shots because they are semi-competent at the plate.

I'm still not following the tweet you reference. Pujols's worst season at the plate was .241/.286/.386 for an OPS of .672. Comparing that to an OPS of .293 for the average pitcher doesn't make sense.

When a position player is having an incomprehensibly bad stretch, there's still the hope that he will break out it-- that perhaps it was a fluky slump, or perhaps an injury that the player is working through.

Of course it's frustrating to see a position player struggle at the plate. But the hope is that the player can find their way out of the aberration that is the horrific streak at the plate.

Having pitchers go up there is just a total waste of time.

In comment 14289966 Metnut said:

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In comment 14289962 steve in ky said: Quote: In comment 14289672 Metnut said: Quote: they'll stop watching baseball if the NL adds the DH don't watch a lot of baseball right now. And you would be wrong. I watch close to all 162 Mets games each season, have for years (been a fan since the 1960's). If the NL gets the DH I'm guessing I'll go to just catching an occasional game each year. At least it will save me some money from buying MLB extra inning each season. Then I think you're being ridiculous but hey, we all have limited time so do what you like.

LOL, ridiculous would be continue to watch something as often that I wouldn't enjoy the same as before.

I posted earlier that I can appreciate why some fans prefer the DH, but for some reason too many of those same fans can't comprehend why others might feel differently. Obviously you don't appreciate the same things about the game as I do. To each his own.

to have pitchers bat. a lot of times pitchers just bunt.

again, my point is not like I'm some pro pitcher batting advocate, I'm not.

I don't really care if pitchers never bat again.

I just find the reasons many AL fans make are hypocritical and mostly because Chien Ming Wang got hurt (not even hitting, but running the bases - so in your world pitchers should not be allowed to be pinch runners either).

If pitchers shouldn't bat it's because it represents inconsistency and unfairness between the leagues from everything from roster building to in-game strategy requirements. Not because they're bad at it or because they might get hurt.

I read one advocate for removal of the hitting pitchers say baseball pitchers are not baseball players, they're pitchers.

but I don't care for the DH. I enjoy the double-switches and overall depth of strategy that is available in the current NL only because they don't have a DH. It effects when pitchers can pulled and teams have to actually carry players on their bench.