Â
|
|
Quote: |
There seems to be a very good chance that they'll take one with the sixth pick of the draft where quarterbacks like Ohio State's Dwayne Haskins, Missouri's Drew Lock, Duke's Daniel Jones and maybe even Oklahoma's Kyler Murray are possible options. Several others, like West Virginia's Will Grier, could be options on Day 2. The Giants could also use their second-round pick to trade back into the first round if one of those top-tier quarterbacks slips farther than they expect. So their options are open, but they do seem more serious about finding Manning's heir apparent than they were at this time last year. Manning, as SNY has been reporting, is expected to return as the starter for the 2019 season. But the Giants are hopeful that right behind him on the depth chart his eventual successor will be on board. |
Quote:
to some on BBI and yet pre-draft most here didn’t want to touch 2 of those guys with a ten foot pole (Allen and Jackson), the other guy went before our pick and is a totally moot point (Mayfield) and the other two guys were thoroughly mediocre and/or missed time due to injury and can be firmly placed in the “We’ll see” category at this point.
But we sat out a draft on the level of 83 or 04? That is based on absolutely nothing so far.
Meanwhile if our guy strings together a bunch of seasons like his Rollie year all he’ll do is go to the HOF.
Don't make this a dishonest ripjob on BBI. The QBs last year were universally well-rated and expected to go high. And judging them based on one year is dumb.
There were 5 1st round QB's with Mayfield as an elite prospect. This year there are 3 first round QBs. What difference does it make when you are only taking 1, especially when you don't have the top overall pick.
Obviously you don't take a guy at a position you have on lock in round one (like the Giants at RB right now) but you try to line up needs and draft strengths by moving up or down.
This to me looks like a Defensive draft. So, unless Haskins is close to the top rated guy on your board (same tier as others still available) you don't reach. You take the top rated guy.
What then do the Giants do at QB? Eli for 2019 and 2020? Make some trades to position themselves for who they want in the 2020 draft? A FA stop gap for 2020?
They have many options.
Seems to me if they were interested in drafting a QB at six, it makes no sense to let anyone know.
I don’t pretend to know what the Giants will do. What I do know is that the Giants are incapable of using misdirection. The organization is terrible at it; Gettleman is bad at it. I figured there is no way he’d be so gung ho on Barkley last year unless he wanted to bluff Cleveland into taking the guy. Nope. He just couldn’t help himself. At that point, I knew that whatever was leaked about the Giants was true, and I figure that remains true this year as well.
Quote:
In comment 14289780 jcn56 said:
Quote:
.
His definition is paying a QB a lot and having a team competitive enough that they aren't in position in the draft to take one high while not being good enough to win a championship.
That's a pretty shitty definition - it basically implies that any team that's not good enough to win a championship is in QB hell. According to that, we've been in QB hell since 2012.
Championships are great, and the ultimate goal - but only one team per year gets one. Most teams go decades between wins, and some haven't won at all. The objective should be to be in position to compete for a championship every year, and the easiest metric is entry to the playoffs.
The definition can mean whatever you want it to mean but the phrase was used by Gettleman. No disrespwct to you but if people are going to continually use that phrase I'd hope they'd know his definition.
It is like when Jerry Reese said Blue Goose or something like that and then all these fans use that phrase or when Tom Coughlin used the phrase green zone. It happens all the time. Once someone says it then it is overused all the time. The phrase QB was never ised before Gettleman. Now everybody uses it and it has a million different definitions.
Quote:
In comment 14289780 jcn56 said:
Quote:
.
His definition is paying a QB a lot and having a team competitive enough that they aren't in position in the draft to take one high while not being good enough to win a championship.
That's a pretty shitty definition - it basically implies that any team that's not good enough to win a championship is in QB hell. According to that, we've been in QB hell since 2012.
Championships are great, and the ultimate goal - but only one team per year gets one. Most teams go decades between wins, and some haven't won at all. The objective should be to be in position to compete for a championship every year, and the easiest metric is entry to the playoffs.
That's not really true. Guys like Big Ben, Brees, prime Eli, Luck, Rodgers even Ryan and Newton are good enough to win SBs with.
It's the teams with the Alex Smith/Kirk Cousins/Matt Stafford type QBs that are in QB hell because they're paying them elite QB $$$ but getting average QB play.
I would agree.. Rosen was behind a horrible line.. much worse than our OL.. I would trade a 2nd round for him or even first round if they are willing to give us something back.
Obviously you don't take a guy at a position you have on lock in round one (like the Giants at RB right now) but you try to line up needs and draft strengths by moving up or down.
This to me looks like a Defensive draft. So, unless Haskins is close to the top rated guy on your board (same tier as others still available) you don't reach. You take the top rated guy.
What then do the Giants do at QB? Eli for 2019 and 2020? Make some trades to position themselves for who they want in the 2020 draft? A FA stop gap for 2020?
They have many options.
I'm a big advocate for BPA, but you need to include positional value into that argument. To me it's really hard seeing that Haskins isn't as valuable as the defensive players that will be available to us in this draft. Honestly, I think he could make the argument to go 1.
I personally think last year's positional players were head and shoulders above what is available this year. Barkley, Nelson, Chubb, and Ward are better than Bosa and company. That is the difference between this year and last year. I think overall it was a much better blue chip class last year. Haskins will be better value than anyone that we take at 6 and we stay there I doubt we get him.
Have you ever considered being a draft prognosticator?
From this organization? That's hilarious.
Quote:
to some on BBI and yet pre-draft most here didn’t want to touch 2 of those guys with a ten foot pole (Allen and Jackson), the other guy went before our pick and is a totally moot point (Mayfield) and the other two guys were thoroughly mediocre and/or missed time due to injury and can be firmly placed in the “We’ll see” category at this point.
But we sat out a draft on the level of 83 or 04? That is based on absolutely nothing so far.
Meanwhile if our guy strings together a bunch of seasons like his Rollie year all he’ll do is go to the HOF.
Don't make this a dishonest ripjob on BBI. The QBs last year were universally well-rated and expected to go high. And judging them based on one year is dumb.
Last year was a case of quantity more than quality. There were a lot of well-regarded QBs in the pool, but none of them were considered to be a can't-miss QB.
SI Article - ( New Window )
You can make an article like that for any position. Also, did you notice the most recent QB from that list is 2011? The league has done a much better job of identifying NFL QB's and there are more QB's coming out deserving of a 1st round grade.
Quote:
In comment 14289808 Chris684 said:
Quote:
to some on BBI and yet pre-draft most here didn’t want to touch 2 of those guys with a ten foot pole (Allen and Jackson), the other guy went before our pick and is a totally moot point (Mayfield) and the other two guys were thoroughly mediocre and/or missed time due to injury and can be firmly placed in the “We’ll see” category at this point.
But we sat out a draft on the level of 83 or 04? That is based on absolutely nothing so far.
Meanwhile if our guy strings together a bunch of seasons like his Rollie year all he’ll do is go to the HOF.
Don't make this a dishonest ripjob on BBI. The QBs last year were universally well-rated and expected to go high. And judging them based on one year is dumb.
Last year was a case of quantity more than quality. There were a lot of well-regarded QBs in the pool, but none of them were considered to be a can't-miss QB.
Some NFL executives have said the top guy in this class (Haskins) would have been the 5th or 6th best QB in last year’s draft. This class has been shit on since the end of last draft season. I’ve pointed out this being a down class since last March. My opinion isn’t changing on these guys. I would be disappointed in a major way if DG took any of these guys.
Yep.
1. Paying an elite player elite money. Whenever it's time for KC to pay Mahomes, just do it and don't think twice.
2. A kid in his rookie deal.
3. A journeyman that can hold the position down at a low cost; Ryan Fitzpatrick and Teddy Bridgewater each had about a $3M cap hit last year. Think about that...a viable starting QB that probably wouldn't have been much worse than what Eli ($22.2M) did for us at the cost of what we paid Jonathan Stewart.
If you're not in one of these three groups with your starting QB, you're doing it wrong.
Right now, the Giants are doing it wrong.
So what is your plan to get Tua?
Quote:
Without a QB on the roster than panic pick an inferior QB prospect in this draft.
So what is your plan to get Tua?
Fromm
Herbert
Eason
There are other options.
It would be shocking if they don't.
...is quite serious.
If they like a particular QB at #6 they better snatch him.
And if they think this QB could go two or three slots higher, they better trade up.
Of course, the Giants are one of the last teams in the NFL that can afford to give up premium picks, but there's always an exception to that rule:
When a team has no long term answer at QB.
1) I believe RalphV was a little loose with his verbage. I suspect what is really happening is that at least at this point in the process the Giants preference would be to a get a QB in the 1st or 2nd rounds but like last year they aren't going to force a pick.
2) There's been certain amount of misunderstanding about last year's draft class. On the one hand at this time in the process it WAS considered to be a really good group with at least three guys (Darnold, Allen, Rosen) who were considered to have elite arm talent. All three guys though also had significant red flags such that when we actually got to the draft it was no longer considered to be that good a class. Indeed, the guy who ended up going #1 overall was an idiot who was barely 6-feet who wasn't considered to be a likely top 5 guy until literally just days before the draft.
3) I've noted elsewhere that right now3 the league is still trying to figure out what they have in Haskins and Murray. The sense you get is that most teams now view Haskins as a legit top 5 guy; indeed, I have talked to several people @ the league who say he would have been the #1 pick in a heartbeat in 2018. (The kicker is that those same people think that Haskins would still only be the 4-5 guy off the board next year, although he'd still likely be there somewhere in the top 10). Murray is a different animal entirely as teams just don't know what to make of him; he's an elite talent but at 5-9 there is just no comp; not even close.
4) The last thing is history has shown that when it comes to drafting QBs early NFL generally throw the BPA book out the window. You need a QB; you like a QB, you go get him. In the past ten years 7 of the 10 #1 overall picks have been QBs. QBs make up almost half (13) of the 30 players taken with picks 1, 2 or 3 in the past ten years; indeed almost as many QBs have been taken within the first three picks (13) as have been taken in the rest of the opening round (17) over the past ten years. Maybe the most fascinating factoid in this issue (if you can follow) is that the last time the first QB selected was a top 10 pick but was not taken in the first three picks was 1992. Fact is QBs get overdrafted every year. You want one you have to get him.
Quote:
In comment 14289828 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
In comment 14289808 Chris684 said:
Quote:
to some on BBI and yet pre-draft most here didn’t want to touch 2 of those guys with a ten foot pole (Allen and Jackson), the other guy went before our pick and is a totally moot point (Mayfield) and the other two guys were thoroughly mediocre and/or missed time due to injury and can be firmly placed in the “We’ll see” category at this point.
But we sat out a draft on the level of 83 or 04? That is based on absolutely nothing so far.
Meanwhile if our guy strings together a bunch of seasons like his Rollie year all he’ll do is go to the HOF.
Don't make this a dishonest ripjob on BBI. The QBs last year were universally well-rated and expected to go high. And judging them based on one year is dumb.
Last year was a case of quantity more than quality. There were a lot of well-regarded QBs in the pool, but none of them were considered to be a can't-miss QB.
Some NFL executives have said the top guy in this class (Haskins) would have been the 5th or 6th best QB in last year’s draft. This class has been shit on since the end of last draft season. I’ve pointed out this being a down class since last March. My opinion isn’t changing on these guys. I would be disappointed in a major way if DG took any of these guys.
This doesn't jibe with Colin's post above.
I agree with #3 and many on BBI should read that since they are constantly throwing out inaccurate comps.
1) There probably won't be a blue chip positional guy there at 6. The alternate options aren't as strong as they were last year. Guys like Oliver, Gary and the CBs come with major questions. The top OT may be a tweener with limited upside. The BPA will probably be an ILB, which isn't a premium position and he isn't exactly screaming "generational talent". It's not like Barkley and Chubb are sitting there. Not even a Ward or Nelson either.
2) Missing on a round 1 QB isn't as detrimental as it used to be. 10 years ago, if you missed on a QB high, you missed on the pick but also had to pay that player as one of the highest in the league. I'm fairly certain Jamarcus Russell and Matt Stafford instantly became the highest paid QBs in the league after signing their rookie deals. New CBA is much different. Last year, Jamies Winston and Marcus Marriotta were at the end of their rookie deals (and highest annuals). They were the 26th and 27th highest paid QBs in the league. Pretty good value actually from a cap perspective. Even the pricey option year is paying them "fairly" at about what they would command on the open market as high end bridge guys. And these players are considered disappointments.
For those reasons, I have no issue with Haskins, despite the risks. I don't see a sure thing on the board at any position and the QB situation will be at desperate levels next year. If they pass on one in April, they will be QB at all cost in 2020. Good luck negotiating a trade up from that position, especially if they improve their way to the middle of the round. It would be foolish to pass on Haskins at 6 given those variables, even if he grades out lower than a Greedy Williams and he doesn't give you the warm and fuzzies (another fantasy about drafting a QB).
Do you trade up for Haskins? I think that's where the real debate is and very much relies on where they stand on him as a prospect.
Quote:
In comment 14289828 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
In comment 14289808 Chris684 said:
Quote:
to some on BBI and yet pre-draft most here didn’t want to touch 2 of those guys with a ten foot pole (Allen and Jackson), the other guy went before our pick and is a totally moot point (Mayfield) and the other two guys were thoroughly mediocre and/or missed time due to injury and can be firmly placed in the “We’ll see” category at this point.
But we sat out a draft on the level of 83 or 04? That is based on absolutely nothing so far.
Meanwhile if our guy strings together a bunch of seasons like his Rollie year all he’ll do is go to the HOF.
Don't make this a dishonest ripjob on BBI. The QBs last year were universally well-rated and expected to go high. And judging them based on one year is dumb.
Last year was a case of quantity more than quality. There were a lot of well-regarded QBs in the pool, but none of them were considered to be a can't-miss QB.
Some NFL executives have said the top guy in this class (Haskins) would have been the 5th or 6th best QB in last year’s draft. This class has been shit on since the end of last draft season. I’ve pointed out this being a down class since last March. My opinion isn’t changing on these guys. I would be disappointed in a major way if DG took any of these guys.
You have been an outspoken advocate AGAINST picking a QB, so you are cherry picking. There are several other experts who believe Haskins and Murray - if he stops with the baseball nonsense - would rank ahead of many of the QBs selected in last year’s draft. You may hate them, others don’t.
I don’t get this place sometimes. People slammed Darnold and Rosen for turning the ball over and some subpar play, yet they slam Haskins for playing well because of the great team surrounding him. Of course,those same people want to draft Tua next year, even though he has superior talent around him, and he struggled against high level competition. People see what they want to see, and they will credit players they like and vice versa. You hate the QBs in this class, so you will do anything to show they stink. But when you do so, at least do it in a uniform manner.
Now - you draft top 5, you pick a guy - and if he doesn't work out you're back in the same place 3 years later and you can try again.
Not saying it's ideal - but is it 'hell'? Punitive enough to make you completely overlook the possibility unless there's some sure fire candidate to select?
Agree completely. Jags are exhibit A. Took Bortles. Miss. But it was very clear after 3 years that he wasn't the answer. They were in a position to draft Watson or Mahomes but took Fournette instead. Bad evaluation of the talent in question not some QB Hell from which there was no escape.
What does one have to do with the other? Mayfield was labeled an idiot because of his character. There were no such concerns with Lamar Jackson.
Quote:
Back in the day, the top picks used to get paid a ton of money - in addition to ponying up a massive draft resource to acquire a guy, you also had to dedicate a chunk of cap space to him. Then, you had some time to ramp him up where he usually didn't play, and then had to give him 2-3 years to see if he works out. All said and done, a considerable amount of time and resources spent.
Now - you draft top 5, you pick a guy - and if he doesn't work out you're back in the same place 3 years later and you can try again.
Not saying it's ideal - but is it 'hell'? Punitive enough to make you completely overlook the possibility unless there's some sure fire candidate to select?
Agree completely. Jags are exhibit A. Took Bortles. Miss. But it was very clear after 3 years that he wasn't the answer. They were in a position to draft Watson or Mahomes but took Fournette instead. Bad evaluation of the talent in question not some QB Hell from which there was no escape.
Except they then stupidly extended Bortles.
Keeping Eli around to "mentor" will be the mistake. Likely the Giants start slow, pressure will build for Eli to take a seat by week 4.
Haskins comes in week 5 as old Eli is scapegoated and Shurmur pulls the plug. Haskins is mediocre as a rookie QB, takes kill shot and is injured/concussed mid third quarter of week 9. Eli comes off the bench to lead team to victory. Eli leads team to strong finish, make playoffs as a wild card and go on to win it all.
Quote:
Pretty much jives what I have been saying, but sounds like some of your connects have a major problem with Mayfield for some reason? I'm sure he rubs some people the wrong way, but his teammates love him and he's definitely not an idiot. If Mayfield is an idiot what the hell does that make a prospect like Lamar Jackson?
What does one have to do with the other? Mayfield was labeled an idiot because of his character. There were no such concerns with Lamar Jackson.
To label him an idiot because of character concerns is idiotic. Call them character concerns. Also the most overblown character concerns I've ever heard. Oh he grabbed his dick put him in prison! That is just who he is- a shit talker - some people aren't going to like that, but I've never heard of the guys in his foxhole complaining. Just the opposite in fact.
He got arrested plastered for underage drinking and tried to run. Definitely not the first kid his age to do that. Immature decision making doesn't make one an idiot especially when that person isn't a fully mature adult!
Agree that is worst choice. Keep the old guy one more year and keep building the team if there are no blue chip QB'S in the Giants' estimation.
If there is a guy, gotta cut Eli loose.
Thats more damning about Goff than anything. When the dust settles I think its going to be pretty clear that McVay's ability to work Goff through games is the real genius. He throws a pretty ball though.