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| There seems to be a very good chance that they'll take one with the sixth pick of the draft where quarterbacks like Ohio State's Dwayne Haskins, Missouri's Drew Lock, Duke's Daniel Jones and maybe even Oklahoma's Kyler Murray are possible options. Several others, like West Virginia's Will Grier, could be options on Day 2. The Giants could also use their second-round pick to trade back into the first round if one of those top-tier quarterbacks slips farther than they expect. So their options are open, but they do seem more serious about finding Manning's heir apparent than they were at this time last year. Manning, as SNY has been reporting, is expected to return as the starter for the 2019 season. But the Giants are hopeful that right behind him on the depth chart his eventual successor will be on board. |
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First half of the career: it’s about wins, not stats
Second half of the career: the stats are solid, but few wins
The stats aren't great in the second half. The picks are down and the completion % is up, but the TD totals and yard/attempt are down...and that has coincided with the Giants consistently being in the top half/top 10 in NFL scoring 2004-2011 to only being in the top 10 once since 2013.
The guy has had two careers. One was great, one has been mediocre to bad.
YPA and TD/INT ratio are the two most important stats for a QB. I'm not sure why people care about completion percentage. In the grand scheme of things it isn't that important. Yards per play and turnover differential are the two most important metrics in football.
The only question that would matter to me as GM, and I've posted it at least 1000 times; can the roster improve to a point to be championship-level in the time Manning has left?
Not competitive, not eek into the playoffs, but with enough talent and depth to go toe-to-toe with the big kids. And not "stranger things have happened" or "why not" -- but confident.
Anything less than planning confidentially for a championship is lame.
Submit your application, you probably won’t even need to interview!
The only question that would matter to me as GM, and I've posted it at least 1000 times; can the roster improve to a point to be championship-level in the time Manning has left?
Not competitive, not eek into the playoffs, but with enough talent and depth to go toe-to-toe with the big kids. And not "stranger things have happened" or "why not" -- but confident.
Anything less than planning confidentially for a championship is lame.
I would agree. The timing is not good at all unless we have one hell of a draft and FA period. It sucks because I fully believe that this is 100% on Reese and his complete and utter lack of proficiency in evaluating OL and in ANY position picked below the 2nd round. And that has wasted Eli's prime years. I also believe that he has not lost any more than any of his contemporaries... Ben, Rivers, etc. I just think he is (at this point in time) in a worse position both in protection and scheme familiarity. And his cap # sure isn't helping us. At the end of the day I still think he can play.
I'd take a closer look at that one. NYG offense was pretty much a disaster for entire first half of that game. Five punts and an INT. Ten points on the board came from an Ogletree pick six and a last second 57 yd FG after CHI coach got too greedy and called a TO when Giants were going to run out the clock.
Second half: trick play long TD pass by OBJ for a TD. CHI gave Giants a fumble on the 13 yd line and offense settled for a FG.
One sustained 12 play drive for a TD and a FG drive in OT for the win. Eli only threw for 170 yards for the game.
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The Bears game was the only truly impressive offensive performance in that second half that gets thrown around.
I'd take a closer look at that one. NYG offense was pretty much a disaster for entire first half of that game. Five punts and an INT. Ten points on the board came from an Ogletree pick six and a last second 57 yd FG after CHI coach got too greedy and called a TO when Giants were going to run out the clock.
Second half: trick play long TD pass by OBJ for a TD. CHI gave Giants a fumble on the 13 yd line and offense settled for a FG.
One sustained 12 play drive for a TD and a FG drive in OT for the win. Eli only threw for 170 yards for the game.
I stand corrected- I totally forgot about that Herculian effort by Barkley before the half. Yeh this whole notion of Eli leading this juggernaut of an offense the second half is built on a faulty premise.
Most of our resources are spent on the offensive side of the ball. We are going to need to win games on that side of the ball. There were games we should have closed out games in the second half with our offense and we couldn't.
Yeah, hopefully Eli will play better if the team around him improves, but why should we take that on faith? Do you think that's what successful teams do? Take things on faith?
What difference would there have been if we drafted Sam Darnold, though? We'd have to hope he panned out and developed. He's no surety. No QB we passed on is, nor is any plan.
There's no way to completely mitigate risk in the NFL. Any guy you draft or sign comes with some degree of "hope" that he'll stay healthy, perform, etc.
If the argument is that NYG are hitching themselves to a wagon with low odds, that's fine - but there's really no series of offseason moves that can entirely eliminate the aspect of needing to hope that a lot of things go right and break right.
Every team that wins a Super Bowl catches a few along the way. If Dee Ford isn't lined up in the neutral zone on a crucial play, the Patriots aren't Super Bowl champions and don't even play in it at all - but that's the NFL and those are the breaks. There is often a razor-thin line between success and failure, and if any fans should know that, it's fans of the Giants.
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I can't speak for you, but I'm tired of basing things on "ifs" and "hopefullys".
Yeah, hopefully Eli will play better if the team around him improves, but why should we take that on faith? Do you think that's what successful teams do? Take things on faith?
What difference would there have been if we drafted Sam Darnold, though? We'd have to hope he panned out and developed. He's no surety. No QB we passed on is, nor is any plan.
There's no way to completely mitigate risk in the NFL. Any guy you draft or sign comes with some degree of "hope" that he'll stay healthy, perform, etc.
If the argument is that NYG are hitching themselves to a wagon with low odds, that's fine - but there's really no series of offseason moves that can entirely eliminate the aspect of needing to hope that a lot of things go right and break right.
Every team that wins a Super Bowl catches a few along the way. If Dee Ford isn't lined up in the neutral zone on a crucial play, the Patriots aren't Super Bowl champions and don't even play in it at all - but that's the NFL and those are the breaks. There is often a razor-thin line between success and failure, and if any fans should know that, it's fans of the Giants.
Luck can get you the last mile, but the first 99 are a combination of sound drafting, smart allocation of resources, and quality coaching that lead to a talented, deep team, that can game plan around adversity and their opponents.
The Giants are in the infancy of a turn around in drafting, have very bad allocation of resources, have few positions with impressive talent, lack depth, and the coaching gets an incomplete.
When a majority of the decisions that comprise your program are wise, you markedly dial-down the dependence on hope.
Brees and Favre (off the top of my head), otherwise not a great track record for 2nd round QB's.
Carr, Garoppolo
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generally suck.
Brees and Favre (off the top of my head), otherwise not a great track record for 2nd round QB's.
Carr, Garoppolo
Kaepernick
His eye level has dropped, and he is often picking his receiver before the ball is snapped. It's clear as fucking day. It's clear in the stats, it's clear in the eye test, it's clear when you hear any analyst not affiliated with the Giants talk about him.
He's done.
He sold his soul to the devil being able to play at a high level in the 2011 NFCC.
Let's pick the game of the season with the worst weather conditions, where the defense allowed over 200 yards rushing and make it sound like it was the norm for the year.
Not surprising, it mimics real life outside of football.
The offense improved. Nobody is saying it was awesome and a finished product. It improved.
The dudes that are talking the most in the spirit of being "objective" are ironically the ones that are refusing to acknowledge anything positive happened.
Let's pick the game of the season with the worst weather conditions, where the defense allowed over 200 yards rushing and make it sound like it was the norm for the year.
The Giants failed to reach 20 points in six games this season.
The Giants failed to break 300 total offensive yards in 4 games this season.
The Giants finished the year 27th in the league at red zone scoring.
It wasn't good.
The were 31st in points scored last year. They were 16th this year.
They scored the most points in the NFC East.
The were 31st in points scored last year. They were 16th this year.
They scored the most points in the NFC East.
The team is not good. The coach doesn't fill me with confidence.
But, by years end the offense and the passing game in particular became the strength of the team. Sure, too little too late and the defnese had one key player shipped out (Apple was no big loss), but the defnese got worse as the year went on and it sucks in general. Eli and the passing game helped by some big runs by Barkley were carrying the squad. Eli and the passing game became the strength of the team like it has been almost every season since he has been here.
It may be the end, Eli is old no doubt about it. I still think, even after all these seasons, he still is not near the top of the list of things wrong with this team.
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and hit 40 points once. Something they hadn't done since Tom Coughlin left.
The were 31st in points scored last year. They were 16th this year.
They scored the most points in the NFC East.
The team is not good. The coach doesn't fill me with confidence.
But, by years end the offense and the passing game in particular became the strength of the team. Sure, too little too late and the defnese had one key player shipped out (Apple was no big loss), but the defnese got worse as the year went on and it sucks in general. Eli and the passing game helped by some big runs by Barkley were carrying the squad. Eli and the passing game became the strength of the team like it has been almost every season since he has been here.
It may be the end, Eli is old no doubt about it. I still think, even after all these seasons, he still is not near the top of the list of things wrong with this team.
The offense produced too with all universe WR Beckham out too.
Titans game showed how soft this team is. It was chilly so they shit the bed, I don't blame Eli too much for that one.
Is what it is.
Just got to keep plugging holes and hope that trend continues.
I think I read that it takes nearly a full season to implement a new playbook, and that that do it in chunks throughout the season. It's possible that the playbook wasn't even fully implemented until mid-season. I know Gettlemen said he thought it would take about 8 weeks.
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In comment 14290400 Go Terps said:
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I can't speak for you, but I'm tired of basing things on "ifs" and "hopefullys".
Yeah, hopefully Eli will play better if the team around him improves, but why should we take that on faith? Do you think that's what successful teams do? Take things on faith?
What difference would there have been if we drafted Sam Darnold, though? We'd have to hope he panned out and developed. He's no surety. No QB we passed on is, nor is any plan.
There's no way to completely mitigate risk in the NFL. Any guy you draft or sign comes with some degree of "hope" that he'll stay healthy, perform, etc.
If the argument is that NYG are hitching themselves to a wagon with low odds, that's fine - but there's really no series of offseason moves that can entirely eliminate the aspect of needing to hope that a lot of things go right and break right.
Every team that wins a Super Bowl catches a few along the way. If Dee Ford isn't lined up in the neutral zone on a crucial play, the Patriots aren't Super Bowl champions and don't even play in it at all - but that's the NFL and those are the breaks. There is often a razor-thin line between success and failure, and if any fans should know that, it's fans of the Giants.
Luck can get you the last mile, but the first 99 are a combination of sound drafting, smart allocation of resources, and quality coaching that lead to a talented, deep team, that can game plan around adversity and their opponents.
The Giants are in the infancy of a turn around in drafting, have very bad allocation of resources, have few positions with impressive talent, lack depth, and the coaching gets an incomplete.
When a majority of the decisions that comprise your program are wise, you markedly dial-down the dependence on hope.
Eh, this seems like a really unnecessarily complicated way of saying "make smarter choices, draft better, coach better" which really doesn't change my point that any strategy is accompanied by a degree of risk.
There's no NFL team that doesn't need to hope their drafted players develop, perform, stay healthy, stay out of trouble - there's no roster construction blueprint that guarantees success or free agent signing where past outcomes guarantee future returns.
It's literally not possible for a GM to change everything that was done by his predecessor over the course of a decade+ in one singular offseason.
I'm still a little lost on exactly what people expected the Giants to be in 2018. I get the impression that frustration is just overtaking rationality in this discussion because the roster clearly had tons of holes, underwent significant turnover, hired a new coach, new OC, new DC, different positional coaches, traded away starters in-season, and were a 3 win team last year.
It's almost like since we weren't a winning team right away, now that means we definitely hired the wrong people and should just fire everyone and start over again. A dangerous cycle indicative of a franchise without any plan whatsoever. And, if I'm not mistaken, a lot of people here are clamoring for a "plan."
Well, if you want a plan, then you need to let it play out for more than one season. We still have a lot of holes and obviously weren't a year away from turning this around.
The first 8 games the Giants scored 15, 13, 27, 18, 31, 13, 20, 13 (broke 20 points 3/8 games).
The last 8 games the Giants scored 27, 38, 22, 30, 40, 0, 27, and 35 points (broke 20 points 7/8 games).
That's improvement. I don't know how anybody can say differently.
Personally, i agree with Go Terps. I think Eli is cooked. And i also question if they should bring him back if the plan is to make him a lame duck. Unfortunately, there is no obvious way of handling this situation.
When i read talk here about the last quarterback class, i laugh. Why? Its like some here think good qb prospects are now extinct. I've read all over this place the Giants screwed up the next decade because they didn't take a quarterback.
Except, in 1 year, a QB has emerged from Ohio State who many scouts like more than the guys last year. A guy no one saw coming. Guess who took the best player in the draft last year and is still in a prime position to get him? Lets stop pretending we know with certainty how good each qb class will be.
Anyone catch Colin's post? The Giants did arguably more due diligence on the qb's last year than any other team. They passed because they saw a can't miss prospect who they deemed to have HOF talent. They were right.
Anyone watch the playoffs? The team in New England ran the ball down people's throats, controlling the clock en route to another super bowl.
You can win in a variety of ways. Smashmouth football may go out of style, but it will always have a place in the game of football (proper personnel permitting)
Build the defense, build the offensive line, KEEP your qb under center and this team will find itself right back in the playoffs. Not a bad way of bringing along a young qb either.
Now, there were questions about if Wilks could step up to being a HC, but how they were able to judge his performance, I don't know.
Meanwhile, they just hired a guy who has underwhelmed when leading teams, but he's supposedly good with QB's.
We'll see how that goes and if he gets another year after a 4 win season.
Now, there were questions about if Wilks could step up to being a HC, but how they were able to judge his performance, I don't know.
Meanwhile, they just hired a guy who has underwhelmed when leading teams, but he's supposedly good with QB's.
We'll see how that goes and if he gets another year after a 4 win season.
Wilks fired his OC and than promoted Leftwich. I know Leftwich is considered a hot name, but he's a first time OC. I see why they decided to wipe the slate with a young QB. If they knew they were drafting Rosen I doubt they would have hired Wilks in first place.
Just got to keep plugging holes and hope that trend continues.
I think I read that it takes nearly a full season to implement a new playbook, and that that do it in chunks throughout the season. It's possible that the playbook wasn't even fully implemented until mid-season. I know Gettlemen said he thought it would take about 8 weeks.
"Plugging holes". That is a low, low bar.
The last 8 games the Giants scored 27, 38, 22, 30, 40, 0, 27, and 35 points (broke 20 points 7/8 games).
That's improvement. I don't know how anybody can say differently.
This is misleading. You need context - as usual.
The 9ers were 27th in points allowed per game. The Bucs were basically dead last with Oakland.
The Skins started Sanchez, who gave us points with his incompetency, and they were flat-lining at the time. When we played Philly, their secondary was in shambles. And the Bears game started the same way with Daniel giving us points.
And don't be fooled by the last game against Dallas. They didn't have their foot on the gas pedal. They were tapping the brakes in the game.
The Titans rolled us.
The Indy effort was decent.
So I am not fooled by this so called improvement. I think it's more fake than real...
It's a disingenuous way of minimizing the Giants.
Whenever we have these discussions, we're the only ones with half our wins asterisked while all of these other brilliant teams are apparently winning in much more convincing ways.
We didn't play any poor teams, just playoff teams? That's why we were 31st in scoring Mr. Context?
We didn't play any poor teams, just playoff teams? That's why we were 31st in scoring Mr. Context?
2017 was a health crisis for the team.
Regards.
Mr. Context
The Giants were 5-11 last year, the 6th worst team in a league of 32 teams. They came out of training camp and preseason a disorganized disaster, and started the season 1-7. They won only 1 game in the division. They won only 2 games at home. And for those pointing to the second half of the season...they ended the season losing their last 3 games, 2 of which were at home.
Those are the facts, provided without bias. It's an ugly picture.
I'm not. You know 2017 was driven largely by injury. My hope is I don't have to remind you of the offensive fire-power we lost.
It's a disingenuous way of minimizing the Giants.
Whenever we have these discussions, we're the only ones with half our wins asterisked while all of these other brilliant teams are apparently winning in much more convincing ways.
I wouldn't characterize those discussions that way. Change/trend, in this case F8 vs L8, needs to be scrubbed to make sure we're looking at the results beyond the simplistic notion that we just played football games against 16 teams that are equal.
And that's to say nothing of the critical job of a new regime: to implement a winning culture. The culture we got was:
- Analytics are for geeks behind computers
- Let's use the backup QB as a punchline to get back at some beat reporters
- Let's have the star WR sit next to Lil Wayne and criticize the organization and QB a month after getting a huge contract
- Bring up the 3-13 a dozen times to the media after going 5-11... Talk about moving the goalposts
Great leadership. Great culture.
None of that stuff would matter, we'd be back on the winning path.
Because let's all call it what it is, that is what is at the heart of this matter here.
None of that stuff would matter, we'd be back on the winning path.
Because let's all call it what it is, that is what is at the heart of this matter here.
No, it isn't. We'd be in a better place, but Shurmur would still be a shitty coach and Gettleman would still be a Luddite.
The Giants were 5-11 last year, the 6th worst team in a league of 32 teams. They came out of training camp and preseason a disorganized disaster, and started the season 1-7. They won only 1 game in the division. They won only 2 games at home. And for those pointing to the second half of the season...they ended the season losing their last 3 games, 2 of which were at home.
Those are the facts, provided without bias. It's an ugly picture.
It is difficult to argue with this.
The team sucks and has for many seasons now.
If the Giants didn't collapse week 17 against Dallas, that sixth win would have been a career high for Shurmur as HC. He should spend less time rationalizing and making excuses in public, and more time winning.
The Giants were 5-11 last year, the 6th worst team in a league of 32 teams. They came out of training camp and preseason a disorganized disaster, and started the season 1-7. They won only 1 game in the division. They won only 2 games at home. And for those pointing to the second half of the season...they ended the season losing their last 3 games, 2 of which were at home.
Those are the facts, provided without bias. It's an ugly picture.
Ah, the "rationalization" buzzword...
Bottom line is that you guys are lumping both regimes together whether intentionally or not.
Anything pre-2018 is essentially irrelevant as far as approach or roster construction goes.
The 2018 team was essentially what I expected them to be. A team with tons of holes that started slow for several reasons and wasn't very good.
Anyone who expected a winning record or playoffs this year just grossly miscalculated what was here and doesn't understand the concept of transitioning. It's as simple as that.
Not everything has to be an "excuse" - some of it can just be reality - a reality that some of you guys just don't want to accept because it doesn't fit the narrative where the Giants have become this abhorrent, bottom of the barrel franchise that will never be good again.
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"Providing context" is actually just rationalizing and excuse making. One year in and already the excuses are flowing (including from the mouths of Gettleman and Shurmur themselves).
The Giants were 5-11 last year, the 6th worst team in a league of 32 teams. They came out of training camp and preseason a disorganized disaster, and started the season 1-7. They won only 1 game in the division. They won only 2 games at home. And for those pointing to the second half of the season...they ended the season losing their last 3 games, 2 of which were at home.
Those are the facts, provided without bias. It's an ugly picture.
Ah, the "rationalization" buzzword...
Bottom line is that you guys are lumping both regimes together whether intentionally or not.
Anything pre-2018 is essentially irrelevant as far as approach or roster construction goes.
The 2018 team was essentially what I expected them to be. A team with tons of holes that started slow for several reasons and wasn't very good.
Anyone who expected a winning record or playoffs this year just grossly miscalculated what was here and doesn't understand the concept of transitioning. It's as simple as that.
Not everything has to be an "excuse" - some of it can just be reality - a reality that some of you guys just don't want to accept because it doesn't fit the narrative where the Giants have become this abhorrent, bottom of the barrel franchise that will never be good again.
But, the Giants are a bottom of the barrel franchise and right now my money is on the team continuing to be bad for a long time.
I am looking for reasons to be optimistic, and for me the HC so far is not a reason to be optimistic.