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| There seems to be a very good chance that they'll take one with the sixth pick of the draft where quarterbacks like Ohio State's Dwayne Haskins, Missouri's Drew Lock, Duke's Daniel Jones and maybe even Oklahoma's Kyler Murray are possible options. Several others, like West Virginia's Will Grier, could be options on Day 2. The Giants could also use their second-round pick to trade back into the first round if one of those top-tier quarterbacks slips farther than they expect. So their options are open, but they do seem more serious about finding Manning's heir apparent than they were at this time last year. Manning, as SNY has been reporting, is expected to return as the starter for the 2019 season. But the Giants are hopeful that right behind him on the depth chart his eventual successor will be on board. |
Build around that.
I can't find them.
I'm just not sure what people expected this season to be. Apparently much more than it was. Which tells me expectations were basically just not reasonable.
Hell, just read the thread..
Terps is right near the top saying the 2018 team could win 10 games if things broke right and had them at 8-8 as a baseline.
Some of you guys simply misread what this team was and now you're walking it back and acting like you knew this would be a 5 win team all along.
You didn't.
Link - ( New Window )
Build around that.
Yes, it is the build part that is worrisome and besides the tease that was the 2016 defense, I don't even remember what it is like for the Giants to have an above average defense.
Specials improved this year which is good.
But, the o line has sucked
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Here's one: Saquon Barkley. 3rd rookie in history with 2000 yards from scrimmage and rookie of the year.
Build around that.
Yes, it is the build part that is worrisome and besides the tease that was the 2016 defense, I don't even remember what it is like for the Giants to have an above average defense.
Specials improved this year which is good.
But, the o line has sucked
Look at it this way, the O-line made more strides in one season that Jerry Reese made on it in seven.
It took Dave Gettleman all of what, four games to cut Flowers? Yeah, he signed a stinker in Omameh but he turned around and cut him too, didn't even wait until the offseason. Jamon Brown and some shuffling gave us better o-line play than we've had in years.
That was encouraging for me.
I can't find them.
I'm just not sure what people expected this season to be. Apparently much more than it was. Which tells me expectations were basically just not reasonable.
Hell, just read the thread..
Terps is right near the top saying the 2018 team could win 10 games if things broke right and had them at 8-8 as a baseline.
Some of you guys simply misread what this team was and now you're walking it back and acting like you knew this would be a 5 win team all along.
You didn't. Link - ( New Window )
I'm not on that thread but my opinion was that they could turn it around quickly. I underestimated just how absolutely horrible our roster was. But I still believe that the league is build for worst to first scenarios. It happens every year. It just didn't for us, and we really got a light shined on just how bad our roster and depth was.
How many for a bottom tier offensive line.
How many for a defense that couldn't buy a key stop and gets physically steamrolled on the ground.
How many for a defense that can't generate any meaningful pressure.
How many seasons ending before Halloween does this team get an excuse for?
“He’s more of a runner than a thrower” - ( New Window )
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In comment 14291005 Britt in VA said:
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Here's one: Saquon Barkley. 3rd rookie in history with 2000 yards from scrimmage and rookie of the year.
Build around that.
Yes, it is the build part that is worrisome and besides the tease that was the 2016 defense, I don't even remember what it is like for the Giants to have an above average defense.
Specials improved this year which is good.
But, the o line has sucked
Look at it this way, the O-line made more strides in one season that Jerry Reese made on it in seven.
It took Dave Gettleman all of what, four games to cut Flowers? Yeah, he signed a stinker in Omameh but he turned around and cut him too, didn't even wait until the offseason. Jamon Brown and some shuffling gave us better o-line play than we've had in years.
That was encouraging for me.
Ok good points, glass half full. How many teams two of the starting lineman they broke camp with? They did have the balls to cut bait.
Solder was horrible the first half too. He needs to be consistent and productive next year, it is critical.
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In comment 14290955 Go Terps said:
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"Providing context" is actually just rationalizing and excuse making. One year in and already the excuses are flowing (including from the mouths of Gettleman and Shurmur themselves).
The Giants were 5-11 last year, the 6th worst team in a league of 32 teams. They came out of training camp and preseason a disorganized disaster, and started the season 1-7. They won only 1 game in the division. They won only 2 games at home. And for those pointing to the second half of the season...they ended the season losing their last 3 games, 2 of which were at home.
Those are the facts, provided without bias. It's an ugly picture.
Ah, the "rationalization" buzzword...
Bottom line is that you guys are lumping both regimes together whether intentionally or not.
Anything pre-2018 is essentially irrelevant as far as approach or roster construction goes.
The 2018 team was essentially what I expected them to be. A team with tons of holes that started slow for several reasons and wasn't very good.
Anyone who expected a winning record or playoffs this year just grossly miscalculated what was here and doesn't understand the concept of transitioning. It's as simple as that.
Not everything has to be an "excuse" - some of it can just be reality - a reality that some of you guys just don't want to accept because it doesn't fit the narrative where the Giants have become this abhorrent, bottom of the barrel franchise that will never be good again.
But, the Giants are a bottom of the barrel franchise and right now my money is on the team continuing to be bad for a long time.
I am looking for reasons to be optimistic, and for me the HC so far is not a reason to be optimistic.
See, the dramatics are just out of hand now.
We're not a bottom of the barrel franchise. There are teams who haven't even played in a Super Bowl... EVER!
The NFL is cyclical. Basically every single team outside of New England winds up with a competitive window, and then they need to build it back up when their players become too expensive, players leave, get hurt, etc.
The Giants are in a lull and suck right now. This needs more than one year and always did. I don't know what to tell you guys if that's all you're willing to give it before throwing up your arms and deciding we're already sunk.
But how often do teams replace their coaches, turn over more than half their roster and look cohesive and together in Week 1?
I just am surprised that people seemed caught off guard by that as if they weren't expecting there to be any sort of transition for the offense with basically an entirely new offensive line to boot.
Of course we struggled.
We obviously need to figure out our future QB plans. We need defensive help. We need a couple more offensive linemen.
Strong draft and better FA Period and I'm looking for .500+ in 2019. If there's no improvement, I'll have no problem at all suggesting that Gettleman/Shurmur are the wrong guys for this.
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In comment 14290994 arcarsenal said:
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In comment 14290955 Go Terps said:
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"Providing context" is actually just rationalizing and excuse making. One year in and already the excuses are flowing (including from the mouths of Gettleman and Shurmur themselves).
The Giants were 5-11 last year, the 6th worst team in a league of 32 teams. They came out of training camp and preseason a disorganized disaster, and started the season 1-7. They won only 1 game in the division. They won only 2 games at home. And for those pointing to the second half of the season...they ended the season losing their last 3 games, 2 of which were at home.
Those are the facts, provided without bias. It's an ugly picture.
Ah, the "rationalization" buzzword...
Bottom line is that you guys are lumping both regimes together whether intentionally or not.
Anything pre-2018 is essentially irrelevant as far as approach or roster construction goes.
The 2018 team was essentially what I expected them to be. A team with tons of holes that started slow for several reasons and wasn't very good.
Anyone who expected a winning record or playoffs this year just grossly miscalculated what was here and doesn't understand the concept of transitioning. It's as simple as that.
Not everything has to be an "excuse" - some of it can just be reality - a reality that some of you guys just don't want to accept because it doesn't fit the narrative where the Giants have become this abhorrent, bottom of the barrel franchise that will never be good again.
But, the Giants are a bottom of the barrel franchise and right now my money is on the team continuing to be bad for a long time.
I am looking for reasons to be optimistic, and for me the HC so far is not a reason to be optimistic.
See, the dramatics are just out of hand now.
We're not a bottom of the barrel franchise. There are teams who haven't even played in a Super Bowl... EVER!
The NFL is cyclical. Basically every single team outside of New England winds up with a competitive window, and then they need to build it back up when their players become too expensive, players leave, get hurt, etc.
The Giants are in a lull and suck right now. This needs more than one year and always did. I don't know what to tell you guys if that's all you're willing to give it before throwing up your arms and deciding we're already sunk.
Right now, in this league, for a long time, teams WANT to see the Giants on the schedule. They suck.
I have heard many times ownership considers meaningful games in late December to be a baseline for a hood season.
The Giants season this year and last year was over before Halloween. That is even generous. The team sucks. Badly. Many blame Eli, likely the team would be even worse without him. Certainly many Giant QB'S would have been injured with these teams at the very least.
The Giants have no physical identity. They have no defensive identity. I am not saying the Giants are historically bad, but they suck right now. Hard.
As stated on this thread, but they were 6th worst out of 32 and it was the passing game carrying the mail in some of those second half wins. The team also has a HC who has no track record of success.
That said, nothing would make me happier than a 12 win 2019 with s bye week. I will settle for meaningful games in Dec.
He'll be gone soon. They won't get to .500 this year, and then 2020 will be about whether Mara is feeling charitable and wants to give him another shot.
This organization desperately needs an outside party to run a diagnostic analysis on how an NFL front office, scouting department, and coaching staff are run in the 21st century.
He needs to get better in-game. But again, the opinions being stated as fact here - he will be gone, we'll suck next year, etc... we haven't even had the draft or FA period yet. I have no idea how you express yourself with such certainty on the subject when so many important pieces of the equation aren't even in place.
Hell, we don't even know for sure who is going to be under center. I'd bet Eli... but nothing is set in stone.
Until I see who we draft, who we sign, what we're looking like this summer, it'd be pointless for me to predict anything. I really have no idea what next season will hold for us. But I'm not going to write it off before it starts. If that's how you're going to approach this, by all means. It's just not my M.O.
You've already decided we won't get to .500 this year and that Shurmur will be gone.
A lot of certainty while lacking key details...
If we go through the draft and free agency and you decide you don't like what they've done, haven't improved the talent base enough for the record to improve in kind, that's fair.
On February 8th? I don't know. It seems like you're really just using your frustration as a basis for this prediction and not much else.
The excuses run out in 2019. Talk to me then. I didn’t love the hire and I didn’t love shurmur’s first year but he gets another year to make things work. I do think we can do worse and I’d like to let shurmur work with a young qb, I also like his offensive background... let’s see what happens. Hopefully the team is so good in 2019 we don’t even need shurmur to be a great game manager.... ok that’s ridiculous.
He seems like he could be a day two flyer with a lot more value than Webb or Lauletta, but I didn't watch enough college football to get a read on him.
Personally like Haskins or Lock but think Haskins is the safer pick. Not as high on Jones I dont see the same ability to read a defense that I do in Haskins or even Lock. Arm strength is a little more questionable as well.
My fave scenario though maybe just a rumor with no legs, would be Cards trading us Rosen for the #6 pick if Murray blows up the combine. Rosen is the best of the bunch and should have a Goff like rise with better talent and coaching from his rookie year.
It probably makes more sense to release him and start a rookie right away, but that's not how they will operate.
If the season goes decently, some of the stronger Eli backers would probably advocate for him to continue in 2020, but that would probably not be wise, as very few QBs put up great seasons past age 38.
I can almost see the Chargers getting burned pretty hard when they extend Rivers after next season.
arcarsenal : 12:46 pm : link : reply
The problem is that context is rarely provided. We live in a world here where everyone can find every reason under the sun to discredit the games we won, but we operate under the assumption that everyone else's wins were more credible, against teams at full strength, at times where they were playing their best, etc.
It's a disingenuous way of minimizing the Giants.
Whenever we have these discussions, we're the only ones with half our wins asterisked while all of these other brilliant teams are apparently winning in much more convincing ways.
The way other teams are looked at is amusing. Remember how Jax was going to light the world on fire this year?
when presented with the fact that San Diego and Rivers had missed the playoffs 7 out of 8 years were we told it is because of the tough division and injuries and Rivers having a MVP-like season supposedly validated that take.
I had been warning people about the Ravens after Go Terps made it sound like Jackson single-handedly saved their season and succeeded where Flacco couldn't have possibly - yet they beat some of the worst defenses in the league - Tampa, Oakland, Cincy, Atlanta and Cleveland.
But I'm told those takes are rational and we are the ones clinging to false hope....
Nevertheless, Rivers is my number one candidate for falling off hard in the next two years
Phillip Rivers had two seasons with 5 or less wins.
It's just more looking at the rest of the teams through a different lens.
You know what still cracks me up? The Panthers in the entire history have never had back-to-back winning seasons.
But Cam was doing things nobody else was....
No, it would be the opposite - the worst scenario.
You see, Jints Central, the romantics that they are, would undoubtedly succumb to their emotions and bring back Eli for another tour. And that is the last thing this team would need...
That's why the cord needs to cut this year; and the transition can finally begin. Alas, one year too late.
Phillip Rivers had two seasons with 5 or less wins.
It's just more looking at the rest of the teams through a different lens.
You know what still cracks me up? The Panthers in the entire history have never had back-to-back winning seasons.
But Cam was doing things nobody else was....
Have people really said that franchise QBs don't have 5 win seasons? Or did they say that if you're paying franchise QB money to win 5 games, then you're overpaying your QB? I'm not doubting that someone has said the former - on BBI, every opinion comes up at some point or another, after all - but I don't think it's been some common refrain. I think the latter is a more frequent position taken by posters.
Using some form of whataboutism doesn't change the fact that Eli's cap number is somewhat incongruous with the team's results, IMO. That doesn't even factor for the ~.500 career W/L record that Eli will likely have after 2019. And obviously he'll also have 2 Lombardis and 2 SB MVPs, so I'm not trying to say that his career hasn't been worth it for the Giants (or us, as fans) on balance. But the past couple of years are the ones that have dragged that record down dramatically, and those are the ones that I think fans are right to question whether it's worth it to carry an older, declining QB with a relatively large cap number on a crappy team, especially if it delays the inevitability of finding his successor and/or reinforces the notion that ownership has a sentimental bent that runs counter to efficient roster construction.
As for looking at other teams through a different lens, why does that surprise you? Here's the different lens I look through when I consider what those other QBs are or aren't: I don't really care about those teams one way or the other, so I'm not particularly concerned with whether they're using their cap space or building their roster optimally in the same way that I am when it comes to the Giants.
But running a team means you have to make tough decisions on whether or not to cut bait with those QB's or not. The saints had a couple down years after Brees earned his contract, but it would've been a bad move to go away from him, yet it is almost taken as fact that eli is done and is the albatross keeping the team down.
We at least got those 2 SB wins. We could be the Lions who have gotten nothing and have an expensive QB. We could be the Vikings, Redskins, Bengals or Dolphins. Heck we could be the Falcons who have a SB appearance, but no wins. at least the Ravens got a SB with Flacco.
I'm tired of fans seeing a team that has had a poor OL, terrible LB's and lack of depth at DB for years and take the stance that if we just had a different QB. we'd be fine.
I believe that is part of the reason why people state as fact that Eli Manning is done and has been for many years while they don't take that same view with peers who have accomplished much less and still have teams that struggle.
Not everybody posts in paragraph form nor expresses every single contributing or related factor as to why the team has struggled over the recent past.
If you feel the QB gets too much blame (or conversely too much credit at times) by fans, then welcome to life in the NFL...
If one were to scan BBI, they'd probably come to the conclusion that Eli is the reason the team sucks, not drafting his successor last year doomed us to a poor record, and we'll never win again until he's gone.
If they have another good offseason this team should win about 9 games next season give or take. That is the natural and organic progression to expect.
A situation as bereft of talent and roster depth as ours was affords no quick fixes. That is where we were when DG and PS took the reins. By no means do I think they got every decision right. I didn't like the Stewart signing...and he's gone. I didn't have any faith Flowers would play well at any position...and he's gone. I didn't like trading Jones and playing Halapio...who played poorly. That said I do believe they got more right than wrong. I do believe the team played hard for the coach. The Draft barring Lauletta was very good.
So now we enter Phase 2 and watch and wait to see how the braintrust builds on what was a poor record but had some signs of growth and improvement.
I think you are astute enough to concern yourself with opinions that you feel matter versus others, so move along if it bothers you. If you don't simply want to, then so be it.
But then that's on you...
I think you are astute enough to concern yourself with opinions that you feel matter versus others, so move along if it bothers you. If you don't simply want to, then so be it.
But then that's on you...
The irony is that every “Eli apologist” to a man, has agreed with you that it’s time to move on from Eli in the near future and is fine with planning for the future without him. It’s you and posters like you that make it a black or white issue by smearing him, discounting, or heaping the failure of the organization at his feet. You create the very backlash that you rail against and have zero self awareness to realize it.
If you can't see that in what I post...then you continue to be blinded as ever...
If one were to scan BBI, they'd probably come to the conclusion that Eli is the reason the team sucks, not drafting his successor last year doomed us to a poor record, and we'll never win again until he's gone.
Apologies in advance for the long post...
Where I agree with you is that there absolutely is a fundamental divide regarding Eli, but I don't know if it's completely binary in the way that you describe. I know that speaking for myself, I believe that it is far more likely that a 38 year old athlete (in any sport, at any position) will get worse going forward than it is that he'll improve. It logically follows then, for me anyway, that with each passing year, Eli will get worse than he was the season prior.
And while I'm fully aware of the other weaknesses of the roster, particularly the fact that certain elements of the team are contributing factors to the circumstances which are most responsible for exposing Eli's inherent flaws, I believe that we have reached the point in Eli's decline phase where the way that the roster would need to be built in order for him to be successful requires significant investment of resources (draft picks and/or cap dollars) while Eli himself is also occupying some of those resources with his own contract. Furthermore, I believe that the supporting cast that many fans want to see the Giants provide Eli with is essentially the same type of supporting cast that a savvy team would surround a young QB with.
So where that takes me is to ask whether, for any reason other than gratitude and sentimentality, it makes sense to continue to commit a large chunk of the cap to a QB who I believe is in some level of decline, when the path to success with that QB is the same as the path to success with a younger, cost-controlled QB. For me, the answer is no - it doesn't make sense.
I understand those fans that are wary of the process of searching for Eli's successor. I'm aware of the likelihood that the Giants will fail in their efforts to find that successor before they succeed in that endeavor. But it's inevitable that they will indeed need to find his successor at some point. Delaying it doesn't eliminate that.
People love to throw around the "QB hell" term, but if you're taking Gettleman's definition of it - that QB hell is having a QB that isn't good enough to win it all, but is good enough to win enough games that it hinders your ability to find the next QB that CAN win it all - why is that condition limited to young QBs? Why can't you be in QB hell with an aging QB who, with the right pieces around him, is just good enough to interfere with being in position to find his own successor?
And therein lies the fundamental divide, right? Because ultimately it comes down to whether or not you believe that the Giants can win the whole thing anymore with Eli under center. If you do believe they can, then that whole long post above is irrelevant to you. But if you don't think it's possible, or just that it's incredibly remote, whatever, then it's worth questioning, isn't it?
That's my view on it. And I've been vocal in my arguments with those who are ardent supporters of Eli, and I'm trying to do a better job of understanding their position even though I disagree with it. But ultimately, what it boils down to for me is that if we need to put faith in Gettleman to build the right roster for Eli to succeed, why not apply that same faith to building the roster for Eli's successor instead, except armed with more cap room that had previously been occupied by Eli's contract?
You are stuck in neutral with that mindset and going nowhere..
It's not only blind it amusing...
17 mil of cap matters. That can be used to sign players who will be here when we are ready to compete. I'd rather have Landon Collins on the roster than Eli at this point. And it doesn't all have to be spent this year. You can vary cap over.
And please spare me how much a vet stop gap will cost.
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If the team around him is getting better? That is where you are blind.
17 mil of cap matters. That can be used to sign players who will be here when we are ready to compete. I'd rather have Landon Collins on the roster than Eli at this point. And it doesn't all have to be spent this year. You can vary cap over.
And please spare me how much a vet stop gap will cost.
So... who you signing that's better? I am not particularly enamored of this years draft crop, though if the Giants brass think a guy is worth one of the picks, have at it, I'm happy to support it. And I don't see any FAs that are any better. So people can rail all they want against it but it's likely he is the best option for next season. And frankly, with the opinions people have of him I see here? I hope we sign some good defensive players, the line gels more and the offense is more comfortable and that Eli kicks ass just to shut all the Eli complaining up already... lol
Tyrod Taylor just came off of a 2 year $30 million deal with half guaranteed, and he sucks. So who are we getting for cheaper than that while also absorbing Eli’s dead cap?
Agree with you.
Except you need to realize Eli is a stop gap as well for all extensive purposes so...