one of the companies you interviewed with came back to you with a "godfather" offer?
In this case, purely hypothetical, say you started the already accepted job 6 weeks ago, and you knew the timing of the decisions the two companies would make didn't line up with when you wanted to make a move and for a variety of reasons you were compelled to accept a job (if it met your criteria). But maybe hypothetically, you didn't expect to get the second job (but again their timelines didn't match up)
What would you do?
Is it unethical, immoral, a shitty thing to do, etc. to leave the job you accepted and spent 6+ weeks with and leave and accept the other job?
Let's also say that the accepted job is great, awesome company, great people, massive growth industry and the compensation is fair and if you remain there you could be very successful.
but the other job checks all those boxes too and is massively more on the compensation and more aligned to your career aspirations?
Compensation in my view shouldn't be the sole decision maker for a career/job choice but it makes a nice tiebreaker (and in the case of a godfather offer maybe even lifestyle changing).
not looking for validation for this hypothetical person's decision, just looking for opinions.
then the 4Q stock market happened and they ended up giving the jobs to internal candidates.
Fuck companies - they wouldnt think twice to fire you to meet analyst expectations in a given quarter.
With that said, you do have to factor in that by leaving the company currently with you will be blackballed from there forever and the networking may come back to bite, etc....
My wife once took a position at my facility, working for a defense contractor.
On her first day - FIRST DAY, an offer came in from a hospital she also applied to, for about 10 grand more - she gave the contractor the opportunity to match. They wouldn't budge, and she walked.
Of course, that certainly burned a bridge or two, but we've never regretted that decision.
You are lucky. Most people who accept counter offers are back on the market 6 months later because they basically held their current employers up for ransom, and put a huge bullseye on the back of their heads.
Consider yourself really lucky.
But like you said take a look at the life work balance but if the workload is simila but way the pay is you'll make good new friends and everything else.
Once hired, very common for companies to constantly cry poverty, giving annual increases barely over cost of living. Employee compensation has been in decline for a generation - pensions virtually GONE, other bennies and perks are nothing like those of the last generation.
Life and your career are short. Make it count. In todays world, it is wise to gain promotion or change employers every 5-10 years - it's the only way to get those substantial pay increases.
How far does this go?
Since the company doesn't care about you, is it okay to steal from them?
How far does this go?
Since the company doesn't care about you, is it okay to steal from them?
Companies are not living things, so they have no morality either way.
Stealing is illegal, so no that is not okay.
Leaving the company you work for that you have no legal obligation to stay at is perfectly fine.
How far does this go?
Since the company doesn't care about you, is it okay to steal from them?
When I worked at the defense contractor I mentioned earlier, they cut 15% of their workforce in a down economy, mostly comprised of people in their 50's.
At the facility I'm currently at, the company cut hundreds of positions in a GOOD year, again, mostly in their 50's.
If you don't look out for number one and your family, you're a sucker just waiting for the axe to fall.
Don't get me wrong - there are exceptions to every rule. Not every company is run by Ebeneezer Fucking Scrooge - but most are.
Seconded. Companies don’t think twice about their bottom line, nor should you. Just don’t burn any bridges and give ample notice.
What I meant is you have to act like your never going back to that place when making that decision. That door will be shut.
Sure there are acceptions, but once you break that trust, it's really tough to come back. Not impossible.
I would also like to think if your jumping ship, there are reasons you would be doing so that wouldn't make you think twice about doing so.
It's not really that you're marked with a Scarlet Letter but a flaky rep is very damaging to a candidate in a job search. Depends greatly on the rest of the work history but if there's a pattern of job hopping or inconsistent work history, this type of move can be an exclamation point for a future hiring manager. I wouldn't have it be the decider but it's a factor that needs to be considered.
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And if your a person who goes back on your word every time another pretty girl passes you walking down the street, I'd want no part of you.
So employees can never leave a company to take a better job elsewhere? Should employers never be allowed to restructure or change the roles of a job?
It's Stan - did you expect anything less?
The grass always looks better in your neighbors yard
Where does it end ?
So you leave the first company and after you are there for two months you get another better offer ? What do you do then ?
What happens if the new opportunity is not what it seemed to be and you ended up leaving what was actually a better position?
You should have confidence in your capabilities and make the best of any opportunity. You will benefit from the relationships and experience you gain and either stay with the company or move to an even better possition
How far does this go?
Since the company doesn't care about you, is it okay to steal from them?
I don't know if it is vindictive necessarily as much as it is to protect themselves of a repeat.
In my case, I backed out after accepting an offer letter (not starting the job), and the headhunter immediately called me to let me know I was on their list of 'banned' candidates, that I'd never get a job listed through them.
So far, it's had absolutely no effect on me. Unless you do something really specialized, being blacklisted or banned from an organization or two doesn't do that much to limit your career mobility.
He's not a close personal friend, but close enough we have stayed in contact trough the year since we last worked together 15 years ago.
I'm sure he'd understand and I might even do something to help make up for his financial loss, but it's the reputational hit, if there is one he takes for referring me I'd be more worried about.
doesn't change what I'd do, but makes me consider the impact to everyone of my decision.
So no - don't commit crimes or be a disgusting fool at work.
That's different than taking a better job - backing out of a job offer or accepting what you believe to be a better opportunity for yourself is NOT immoral!
He's not a close personal friend, but close enough we have stayed in contact trough the year since we last worked together 15 years ago.
I'm sure he'd understand and I might even do something to help make up for his financial loss, but it's the reputational hit, if there is one he takes for referring me I'd be more worried about.
doesn't change what I'd do, but makes me consider the impact to everyone of my decision.
Try to get him in where you are going. I'm sure he would appreciate that gesture.
How far does this go?
Since the company doesn't care about you, is it okay to steal from them?
I'm curious. What do you do for a living that you associate a person leaving a job for a better opportunity with that of someone stealing from the company they worked for?
I have had multiple businesses and employed countless people over the years and I while it may have been stressful to deal with (a good employee unexpectedly leaving)I never begrudged someone for leaving to better themselves. Yet I despised anyone I ever caught stealing from me.
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than a recruiter, it was a personal friend who referred me direct to internal recruiters and he stands to get an employee referral bonus if/after I'm there 90 days.
He's not a close personal friend, but close enough we have stayed in contact trough the year since we last worked together 15 years ago.
I'm sure he'd understand and I might even do something to help make up for his financial loss, but it's the reputational hit, if there is one he takes for referring me I'd be more worried about.
doesn't change what I'd do, but makes me consider the impact to everyone of my decision.
Try to get him in where you are going. I'm sure he would appreciate that gesture.
Not a bad idea, one of the first things I thought about with this role was building the team, I'll have to hire quite a few people over the next year.
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...that since companies don't care about you, there is no need to have any personal morality at work?
How far does this go?
Since the company doesn't care about you, is it okay to steal from them?
I'm curious. What do you do for a living that you associate a person leaving a job for a better opportunity with that of someone stealing from the company they worked for?
I have had multiple businesses and employed countless people over the years and I while it may have been stressful to deal with (a good employee unexpectedly leaving)I never begrudged someone for leaving to better themselves. Yet I despised anyone I ever caught stealing from me.
HOW LOW WILL YOU GO? RAPE? MURDER? TEARING THE TAGS OFF MATTRESSES????
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In comment 14291145 pjcas18 said:
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than a recruiter, it was a personal friend who referred me direct to internal recruiters and he stands to get an employee referral bonus if/after I'm there 90 days.
He's not a close personal friend, but close enough we have stayed in contact trough the year since we last worked together 15 years ago.
I'm sure he'd understand and I might even do something to help make up for his financial loss, but it's the reputational hit, if there is one he takes for referring me I'd be more worried about.
doesn't change what I'd do, but makes me consider the impact to everyone of my decision.
Try to get him in where you are going. I'm sure he would appreciate that gesture.
Not a bad idea, one of the first things I thought about with this role was building the team, I'll have to hire quite a few people over the next year.
The day you put in notice, give him specifically a heads up. Tell him how you appreciate it, and that if he wants you can try to get him on where you are headed as you are building a team out. The would keep that bridge up, especially if you can get him a godfather deal too.
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In comment 14290978 Face Pepler said:
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...that since companies don't care about you, there is no need to have any personal morality at work?
How far does this go?
Since the company doesn't care about you, is it okay to steal from them?
I'm curious. What do you do for a living that you associate a person leaving a job for a better opportunity with that of someone stealing from the company they worked for?
I have had multiple businesses and employed countless people over the years and I while it may have been stressful to deal with (a good employee unexpectedly leaving)I never begrudged someone for leaving to better themselves. Yet I despised anyone I ever caught stealing from me.
It's a slippery slope man, one minute you're accepting a job offer from a competitor, the next, you're heisting the office safe?
HOW LOW WILL YOU GO? RAPE? MURDER? TEARING THE TAGS OFF MATTRESSES????
LOL, yeah leaving a job for another; the gateway to a life of crime.
Spent 30+ years busting my ass for the same public school. Retired with over 250 accumulated sick/personal days. Countless hours of unpaid time.
No public acknowledgement, no handshake... nothing. No regrets for anything I did for the kids or my colleagues.
Accept that you are expendable and do what's in your best interest.
We weigh the pro's and cons, and it's nearly ALWAYS a bit of a blindfolded leap.
We're talking about what we get to do with most of our waking hours. Having regrets over passing on a better opportunity soley out of loyalty is just... sad.
If it's a company that has done right by you, you can help make their transition easier in many cases, working in a consulting role part time or by other means, but you've got to do right by yourself first.
It's like agreeing to go steady with a girl, but then breaking up with her because a more attractive one you were also interested in around the same time but who was not available suddenly reached out. Sure, there may be feelings of guilt in dumping his girlfriend, no one wants to let someone else down, but it doesn't make it "immoral".
In this case, as long as he gives decent advance notice to his current company and isn't in violation of any contractual commitment for a certain term there is absolutely nothing immoral about this.
In an ideal world, when he had the job offer from his current company, before accepting he could have put some pressure on the desired company by saying he has an offer on the table from another company. Maybe then he gets the job with his desired company right away, which is a more elegant and cleaner move. Timing of the hiring processes doesn't always work that way.
If they pull the plug on the job after a year, and you still could have been at your other job you might regret it.
There's always that risk when you take a new job when you currently at a good place.
Ya only live once.
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Think of yourself as your own company. I once accepted an offer from another company and got as far as even taking the piss test. The company was happy as hell to get me. And I had nothing but respect for them. They made me a nice offer. Well my present company came back with a "Godfather " offer. Yes I thought to myself why didn't they come up with this before? But I had to think about myself and my family. I stayed and was happy as hell I did. Not the same as your hypothetical circumstance but still similar in a lot of ways.
You are lucky. Most people who accept counter offers are back on the market 6 months later because they basically held their current employers up for ransom, and put a huge bullseye on the back of their heads.
Consider yourself really lucky.
Big Blue,I never put the present company up for ransom. I gave my notice with respect and they were going to have me work my notice days which is unusual in sales if you're going to a competitor. I was with the company over 25 years and was one of the top salemen. Not trying to be arrogant but just stating the circumstances.They were selling the company to new owners and a few companies came calling. I figured I should talk to at least one of them. Which was when I accepted the offer. I never used either company for ransom. I didn't want to do that. Another note the company that was being sold had previously given me a handshake notice if they were ever going to sell they would let me know. They didn't do that. I found out on my own. Again the company was concerned about themselves and was doing what they felt was good for them. I gave a clean notice and expected to leave.The new company knew me very well personally and professionally. They had been in the past a customer of mine. They didn't want me to move somewhere else. Keep in mind I made the original company a lot of money so the company they were selling to wanted obviously for their own selfish reasons me to stay on board. The "Godfather" offer was put in writing. At that point again I knew the people well, trusted them and had things in writing so I stayed. I know they considered themselves very luck. I again made them a lot of money. Yes I was lucky that I made the right decision. But would they have given me the "Godfather" offer if I didn't do what I did? Absolutely not. The "Godfather" money would have been in the pockets of the new owners. It's part of business. In sales obviously $ is what counts for both employer and employee. On another note if it went bad I knew I had other options to go to other places that had been calling me. I was never worried. Probably not the same circumstances as pjcas, I don't know. I have since retired 12 years later and the "new " company gave me a tremendous retirement party which I will be forever grateful for. It was business for both parties at the time and they understood.Everything is a chance but I still stand by what I said to pjcas with what little I know about his situation.
So, thank you to everyone who took the time to reply.
So, thank you to everyone who took the time to reply.
*though not tough
If it were me the biggest parts of that calculation would be the fit with the people/culture, the role, and the outlook for the actual companies themselves - when the company is growing there's wind in the sales and everyone is succeeding to some degree and vice versa when it's contracting. Of the 3 I'd say the specific role is least important because if you do a good job in the right environment with the right people that can get recognized and change quickly. Good people/culture are probably most important to me. Compensation matters but 10-20% differences are also kind of an illusion because unless it's guaranteed it can always be impacted by outside events out of your control. Layoffs, market shifts, etc. If you get 10-20% more in a worse environment maybe bonuses don't pay out as high or it doesn't have the opportunity for growth in future years, or you get passed over. I'd take a little less to play for Barry Trotz.
In the wrong environment, with the wrong people, it's hard to win. Like working for the Wilpons.
In my case now I feel pretty blessed, both of these opportunities are great companies.
The one I'm at now I didn't know that well, but I knew a bunch of people here. No one would say anything bad about the company (even off the record) it seemed eerily cultish, but 6 weeks in, seems completely legit and such a good company - good leadership, great people, great products (best I've worked with), great culture, just a great company.
the other job that I'd likely take is a company I've worked with as a partner of my other employers for years and they are very well known, and very well regarded and I know many people there.
again, I appreciate all the replies and a lot of the advice and posts are helpful.
In my case now I feel pretty blessed, both of these opportunities are great companies.
The one I'm at now I didn't know that well, but I knew a bunch of people here. No one would say anything bad about the company (even off the record) it seemed eerily cultish, but 6 weeks in, seems completely legit and such a good company - good leadership, great people, great products (best I've worked with), great culture, just a great company.
the other job that I'd likely take is a company I've worked with as a partner of my other employers for years and they are very well known, and very well regarded and I know many people there.
again, I appreciate all the replies and a lot of the advice and posts are helpful.
this may sound contradictory to my previous post, but if the place you're at has lived up to the hype and is that good in terms of people/environment, and on top of that the products are great (which would in theory seem like a company on the right track to grow) - I think i'd stay there. Bird in the hand. In my experience great people and great cultures are very hard to find so even if the rep is good at the other place too, not sure I'd be willing to roll those dice.
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and I fully agree with you. I've worked at some places that make it really hard to be successful.
In my case now I feel pretty blessed, both of these opportunities are great companies.
The one I'm at now I didn't know that well, but I knew a bunch of people here. No one would say anything bad about the company (even off the record) it seemed eerily cultish, but 6 weeks in, seems completely legit and such a good company - good leadership, great people, great products (best I've worked with), great culture, just a great company.
the other job that I'd likely take is a company I've worked with as a partner of my other employers for years and they are very well known, and very well regarded and I know many people there.
again, I appreciate all the replies and a lot of the advice and posts are helpful.
this may sound contradictory to my previous post, but if the place you're at has lived up to the hype and is that good in terms of people/environment, and on top of that the products are great (which would in theory seem like a company on the right track to grow) - I think i'd stay there. Bird in the hand. In my experience great people and great cultures are very hard to find so even if the rep is good at the other place too, not sure I'd be willing to roll those dice.
that's why this isn't such a no-brainer to me.
The company I'm at now is like a rocket ship, with no end in site. Without revealing more than I want to, it's one of the most innovative companies on the globe right now and not in an area where I had previous subject matter expertise, so it will expand my capabilities and make me more attractive for future roles.
but...the other company, who is annually recognized as one of the best places to work, I know them well from working with them over the years, and the role is more senior (and the pay is in another stratosphere) so it also prepares me for the future.
it's a gut wrenching decision, but I appreciate the feedback my wife is very little help. She says to pick with the one who has the least travel so I can have a work life balance, and be home to coach my youngest's hockey team more reliably, nothing about career future or compensation, mostly about work/life balance, which is important to me, but lower on the list. I should probably listen to her.
Without knowing which opp has more travel, there might even be a way to end up having your cake and eating it too. If there's less travel with the other company and you decided to go for that, that would be a perfectly understandable reason when your current company asks why your making the change and perhaps they would be willing to alleviate some of the travel you currently have to entice you to stay. (i think you know this but ill say it anyway cause it's the internet, but you obviously wouldn't accept the new offer planning for this to happen, just throwing out that it's always a possibility. I've seen people offered 4 day work weeks and other things of that sort to entice them to stay that nobody would have thought to even ask for prior. if you have an exceptional boss you really trust before accepting you could also talk it through - though you really need to toe the line of not appearing to just be a negotiating opportunist and feel confident you know the psychology of the boss well enough to predict they won't take it personally or get offended.)
It was a very difficult decision. I’m a loyal person and my word means something. But I had this very strong feeling about my top choice, so I reneged on my acceptance and took the offer for the job I really wanted.
Later that year I met my wife and mother of my amazing son through that job. Not a day goes by that I don’t thank my lucky stars I did what I did. That other company made out just fine without me.
Do what is right by you.