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Silva: Giants will keep Manning and NOT request paycut

CromartiesKid21 : 2/9/2019 11:09 am
Evan Silva
@evansilva
Releasing Eli Manning before his $5 million bonus comes due on 3/17 would save $17 million vs the cap, but "the sense is the #Giants will keep Manning" & "requesting a straight pay cut from a player beloved within the organization seems unlikely."
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RE: ...  
WillVAB : 2/9/2019 11:23 pm : link
In comment 14292094 christian said:
Quote:
I think many of you extremely overrate the talent on this team, as did many last year.

The Giants *might* improve vastly. That could happen. As it stands basically every unit on offense outside of RB needs improvement. Every unit, literally every unit on defense needs improvement.

The Giants team that had that little streak of games, has to replace or improve a lot of players. They won't have 4 top 70 picks and they won't have nearly as much cap space to spend.


The Giants had 23 mil in space this time last year and they have at least 27 mil now.
Hope this isn't true..  
prdave73 : 2/10/2019 12:19 am : link
don't get me wrong im all for keeping Eli for another year, I'm just not good with paying him that much. This is why this Organization is in the situation they are in now. They are just to nice. I'm sorry but I would have him take a paycut to help the team out?!That's just my opinion..
RE: RE: WillVAB...  
bw in dc : 2/10/2019 1:25 am : link
In comment 14292061 WillVAB said:
Quote:


The goal should be to make a move at QB thatís in the best interest of the franchise long term. Not change for the sake of change or cap space. Cap space that no one here earmarked for any notable targets in FA, and not necessary to retain anyone they want to keep.

The Giants will have an opportunity to get a guy they really want at the position in the not so distant future. Thereís no need to force the issue and lose out on that opportunity because the franchise is invested in an inferior player.


Back to the Driskell idea.

Driskellís cap hit is $720K for 2019. Basically, heís $22M+ cheaper than Eli. Heís mobile and athletic. A guy with some decent NFL experience who could do traditional QB duties, RPOs, and designs out of the pocket.

In other words, probably a better compliment to Barkley.

Iím not at all suggesting anything great with Driskell. But in all likelihood, the difference in win totals isnít that great between Eli and him. So in each case, weíre likely going nowhere.

So whatís better for the team? Weíre losing with both (just playing the odds). However, weíre saving $22M in one case; and in the other case, itís a chance to see a slower, older Eli play again?

+$22M in cap or walking down memory lane...

I think the answer is fairly clear.


RE: RE: RE: WillVAB...  
WillVAB : 2/10/2019 1:54 am : link
In comment 14292130 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 14292061 WillVAB said:


Quote:




The goal should be to make a move at QB thatís in the best interest of the franchise long term. Not change for the sake of change or cap space. Cap space that no one here earmarked for any notable targets in FA, and not necessary to retain anyone they want to keep.

The Giants will have an opportunity to get a guy they really want at the position in the not so distant future. Thereís no need to force the issue and lose out on that opportunity because the franchise is invested in an inferior player.



Back to the Driskell idea.

Driskellís cap hit is $720K for 2019. Basically, heís $22M+ cheaper than Eli. Heís mobile and athletic. A guy with some decent NFL experience who could do traditional QB duties, RPOs, and designs out of the pocket.

In other words, probably a better compliment to Barkley.

Iím not at all suggesting anything great with Driskell. But in all likelihood, the difference in win totals isnít that great between Eli and him. So in each case, weíre likely going nowhere.

So whatís better for the team? Weíre losing with both (just playing the odds). However, weíre saving $22M in one case; and in the other case, itís a chance to see a slower, older Eli play again?

+$22M in cap or walking down memory lane...

I think the answer is fairly clear.



1. The Giants would have to trade assets to acquire him, assuming the Bengals are even willing to part ways.

2. Heís entering the last year of his rookie deal. So toss out your economics argument.

3. If the Giants did trade for him, it would be because they view him as a long term solution at QB. That means the Giants are invested in him for a minimum of 3 years, probably more, and pass on every potential franchise QB in the draft during that time span.

What youíre proposing is a tried and failed model thatís completely short sighted. At best the Giants become the Miami Dolphins for the next 10 years.
agree with Bill L and WillVAB  
fkap : 2/10/2019 6:38 am : link
the argument from a few (a VERY, VERY vocal few) is to shout ANYONE BUT ELI. That's the objective - to dump Eli. Then it's grasping at straws for a replacement.

Any moving away from Eli should be a movement toward a long term solution, NOT hopscotching around with 'ah, what the hell, try X, maybe he'll be better, anybody but Eli'

the boat has a leak in it, and surely needs upgrading. That doesn't mean we should jump out in the middle of the ocean and cling to any old flotsam.

bw said on another thread that he didn't trust one of the draft options (Haskins?) because the talent around him was so good that he had time in the pocket to relax and make thoughtful decisions. The problem with Eli is that he hasn't had the time to relax. He's shell shocked, and the 'it' factor comes and goes. Work on the OL, give Eli a reliable pocket and time to relax. I think you'll see an Eli who is good enough until the right replacement can be found.
If they think a backup, or a draft pick is the right long term solution, then go for it. But the argument should start with 'we found a good replacement', not centered around 'anybody but Eli'.

$17M in cap space  
slickwilly : 2/10/2019 7:15 am : link
which would inevitably lead to the next criticism of how they paid A money for B talent. So many GM's in waiting here.
Nice strawman there fkap  
LakeGeorgeGiant : 2/10/2019 7:40 am : link
You burned it up real good, but nobody fucking said that.
RE: RE: RE: RE: WillVAB...  
bw in dc : 2/10/2019 8:01 am : link
In comment 14292134 WillVAB said:
Quote:



1. The Giants would have to trade assets to acquire him, assuming the Bengals are even willing to part ways.

2. Heís entering the last year of his rookie deal. So toss out your economics argument.

3. If the Giants did trade for him, it would be because they view him as a long term solution at QB. That means the Giants are invested in him for a minimum of 3 years, probably more, and pass on every potential franchise QB in the draft during that time span.

What youíre proposing is a tried and failed model thatís completely short sighted. At best the Giants become the Miami Dolphins for the next 10 years.


Failed model? The team is failing now with a 38 year old QB at the helm. Basically, weíve been the Dolphins for the last seven years.

What assets to acquire him? A fourth rounder? Itís Jeff Driskell. And yes, Iím assuming a trade could be worked out. So play along.

As far as Iím concerned, Driskell would be a one year rental. The Patriots make similar moves all of the time, trying to acquire potentially undervalued asses.

Driskell has one year left on his contract at $720K. If he works and we hit on it, great. Then we consider something longer. But hereís what youíre missing - Iím trying to free up money NOW from Eliís contract to improve other areas of the team. Thatís material money to invest.

Meanwhile, Iím also drafting a QB from this draft. Preferably early - say, the second round. So Iím not stopping at Driskell. Iím getting younger and more athletic at QB. I want a QB competition right now.

Again, and let me underscore this, with or without Eli this year, we are very, very likely going nowhere. I know the Eli-always-has-excuses crowd think there is another run there, because they see Eli on the same level as Brees or Brady with poorer management, but Iím siding with the football actuarial tables on this one.

So letís get younger, save cap dollars, and get into a QB competition to see the future...

You know what would impress me? Honesty. I wish posters would just what they are really thinking - they really want to see Eli keep playing. Heís an important piece of Giants history, so let him go out on his terms. Trying to camouflage that with this other non-sense that I read - mentor the next QB, heís an oline away from making us a contender, etc - really pushes this organization deeper into a hole.

Letís start digging out of it now.

Honesty?  
Jimmy Googs : 2/10/2019 8:08 am : link
You can't handle the truth!
RE: RE: ...  
christian : 2/10/2019 8:21 am : link
In comment 14292105 WillVAB said:
Quote:
In comment 14292094 christian said:


Quote:


I think many of you extremely overrate the talent on this team, as did many last year.

The Giants *might* improve vastly. That could happen. As it stands basically every unit on offense outside of RB needs improvement. Every unit, literally every unit on defense needs improvement.

The Giants team that had that little streak of games, has to replace or improve a lot of players. They won't have 4 top 70 picks and they won't have nearly as much cap space to spend.




The Giants had 23 mil in space this time last year and they have at least 27 mil now.


Dave Gettleman dished out ~110M in guaranteed money last offseason -- impacting the medium term cap space across a few years, where money is realistically spent.

It's an almost certainty he will not be spending that type of money this offseason.
RE: the Giants have no leverage  
Gatorade Dunk : 2/10/2019 10:19 am : link
In comment 14291595 fkap said:
Quote:
to force a paycut.

If they're going with Eli for the year, it's either give him more money for an extension, or stick with the contract as is.

I'd rather not extend and push dead money on next year.

The question is whether to go with Eli this year, or cut him.

As I've said before, keeping Eli for the last year of his contract does not prevent bringing in FA this year. First year cap hit is typically low, then will be escalating when Eli's hit is coming off the books.

The Giants don't have leverage? 2/3 of his 2019 money is nonguaranteed, and that's assuming they don't use the roster bonus itself as leverage. That's their leverage. It's at least questionable that Eli gets $17MM on the open market, but even if he were to, is he willing to play that game and finish his career with a different team over a couple of million that the Giants would ostensibly be using to fortify the roster around him?

If this is true, I assume that this is exactly what Gettleman was talking about when he said that Eli "took [him] to the low post and won." The conversation about a potential pay cut may have already happened and Eli (or Condon, more likely) already refused.
No, it's not  
HomerJones45 : 2/10/2019 10:38 am : link
Quote:
It's at least questionable that Eli gets $17MM on the open market


I don't know what you guys are thinking. Manning is due $17 million this year. Foles got $20 million. Garappolo $18. Alex Smith $18 Keenum $15. After Keenum, you are talking about guys on rookie deals and backups.

Manning is not overpaid as a vet starting qb. His salary and cap hit do not prevent the Giants from drafting a qb or picking up someone's failed #1 pick like Bridgewater or getting someone else's cut in preseason.
You canít even spell his name right!!! Itís Jeff Driskel  
Ssanders9816 : 2/10/2019 10:39 am : link
And the Giants are not trading for him. Worst idea EVER!!
...  
christian : 2/10/2019 10:43 am : link
The Giants have all of the leverage.

Does Manning want to uproot or be away from his infant child and family? Does he want to learn and potentially struggle as he settles into another system? Does he want to face the criticism from a fanbase and media without the benifit of being a Super Bowl hero to them?

Forget about money -- is Eli Manning willing to play football somewhere else.

I don't think the Giants will or should set out to screw Manning. I'd like to see an extension that turns the guarantees into incentives based on success.

If the Giants have a winning year and Manning plays well -- compensate him and create a path to 2020. If the Giants have a losing year and Manning plays poorly, cut down the cost and call it a career.
RE: RE: RE: RE: We don't need the cap space.  
HomerJones45 : 2/10/2019 10:59 am : link
In comment 14291899 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 14291851 WillVAB said:


Quote:




Well, if we donít need the cap space and Eli has all this gas left in the tank, why not pay him another $90M / 3 yrs?

May as well lock up this still great player who is more mobile than ever, a stronger arm than ever, and stands taller and more poised than ever in the pocket.

Right?



Idiotic argument.

Brady just won the SB and is entering the final year of his deal just like Eli. Why arenít the Pats extending him? Are the Pats dumb? Does it mean they are locked into drafting his replacement? Does it mean they have to draft his replacement? Does it mean Brady sucks now? No.

When a QB gets to this stage of his career itís really in the best interest of the organization to take it year by year until youíre certain about the replacement.




With all due respect, comparing Eli to Brady is not your strongest move.

Eli exhibits considerably more signs of his skills eroding than Brady.

Brady is better at 42 than Eli ever was. Heíll be better at 50 than Eli ever was. And the Pats will extend him.

Furthermore, the Pats, well BB, had a succession plan. He tutored JG and had him prime to go. Kraft pulled the owner card, likely via. Brady campaign behind the scenes, and forced the JG trade.
Bullshit. The Pats have transformed their offense with the line and running backs; Brady got the headlines but the o-line and running game got the Pats the Lombardi- 3rd in rushing attempts, 5th in yardage and 4th in rushing td's on the season. Everyone so fixated on Brady, they didn't look to see what the Pats were actually doing.

Brady threw 2 td passes in the postseason against 3 picks while being sacked 1 time in 3 games- once. The Pats averaged 160 yards a game rushing in 3 playoff games. You don't think Eli could play behind that line?

Little Bill and the FO know their business. With a 43 y/o qb they re-built the line and running backs so as to protect Brady and not have to rely on him.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: We don't need the cap space.  
Zeke's Alibi : 2/10/2019 11:17 am : link
In comment 14292246 HomerJones45 said:
Quote:
In comment 14291899 bw in dc said:


Quote:


In comment 14291851 WillVAB said:


Quote:




Well, if we donít need the cap space and Eli has all this gas left in the tank, why not pay him another $90M / 3 yrs?

May as well lock up this still great player who is more mobile than ever, a stronger arm than ever, and stands taller and more poised than ever in the pocket.

Right?



Idiotic argument.

Brady just won the SB and is entering the final year of his deal just like Eli. Why arenít the Pats extending him? Are the Pats dumb? Does it mean they are locked into drafting his replacement? Does it mean they have to draft his replacement? Does it mean Brady sucks now? No.

When a QB gets to this stage of his career itís really in the best interest of the organization to take it year by year until youíre certain about the replacement.




With all due respect, comparing Eli to Brady is not your strongest move.

Eli exhibits considerably more signs of his skills eroding than Brady.

Brady is better at 42 than Eli ever was. Heíll be better at 50 than Eli ever was. And the Pats will extend him.

Furthermore, the Pats, well BB, had a succession plan. He tutored JG and had him prime to go. Kraft pulled the owner card, likely via. Brady campaign behind the scenes, and forced the JG trade.

Bullshit. The Pats have transformed their offense with the line and running backs; Brady got the headlines but the o-line and running game got the Pats the Lombardi- 3rd in rushing attempts, 5th in yardage and 4th in rushing td's on the season. Everyone so fixated on Brady, they didn't look to see what the Pats were actually doing.

Brady threw 2 td passes in the postseason against 3 picks while being sacked 1 time in 3 games- once. The Pats averaged 160 yards a game rushing in 3 playoff games. You don't think Eli could play behind that line?

Little Bill and the FO know their business. With a 43 y/o qb they re-built the line and running backs so as to protect Brady and not have to rely on him.


I personally don't think Eli could. The offensive line was decent, but a big part of him not taking sacks was two things. They played the Chargers, Chiefs, and Rams. Three defenses whose weakness is against the run with a fullback. The Chargers and Chiefs woefully bad. The game plan was to run, run, and run some more. Brady also gets rid of the ball extremely fast. Not that Eli isn't capable of this, but Eli's accuracy is a far cry from where Brady can operate in the short passing game. Brady made the throws when they needed them and moved the chains. Brady's TD total had the potential to be much higher if they decided to throw the ball into the end zone which they never had to.
I love the Dolphins comparison made in this thread.  
Default : 2/10/2019 11:31 am : link
Overpaid a mediocre injury prone QB and had a severe lack of talent on the team for the past seven seasons.

Also has had better results than the Giants the past seven years.

So instead of trying something new, lets trot out the 38 year old bottom tier QB for one more run.

When the team starts off like shit again and trades away good players for nothing at the trade deadline idiots can call it a rebuilding season again.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: We don't need the cap space.  
bw in dc : 2/10/2019 11:34 am : link
In comment 14292246 HomerJones45 said:
Quote:


Bullshit. The Pats have transformed their offense with the line and running backs; Brady got the headlines but the o-line and running game got the Pats the Lombardi- 3rd in rushing attempts, 5th in yardage and 4th in rushing td's on the season. Everyone so fixated on Brady, they didn't look to see what the Pats were actually doing.

Brady threw 2 td passes in the postseason against 3 picks while being sacked 1 time in 3 games- once. The Pats averaged 160 yards a game rushing in 3 playoff games. You don't think Eli could play behind that line?

Little Bill and the FO know their business. With a 43 y/o qb they re-built the line and running backs so as to protect Brady and not have to rely on him.


Well, this thread isn't about Pats Central v Jints Central. Or Brady v Eli.

But, yes, I think Eli could play behind the Pats oline. Playing and being as productive, however, are two different discussions. It helps that Brady is fearless and has a PhD in pocket skills.

Furthermore, I don't think we have the brainpower or creativity, like the Pats (who really does, right?), to create an optimal situation for Eli. That's why all this talk of keeping him, and continuing to build around him, is a waste of time and money.

For the record, when it mattered most, Brady led the game winning drive in OT in KC converting 3 straight 3rd and tens. Without that, I'm not sure there is trophy #6.
RE: RE: RE: ...  
WillVAB : 2/10/2019 12:04 pm : link
In comment 14292159 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 14292105 WillVAB said:


Quote:


In comment 14292094 christian said:


Quote:


I think many of you extremely overrate the talent on this team, as did many last year.

The Giants *might* improve vastly. That could happen. As it stands basically every unit on offense outside of RB needs improvement. Every unit, literally every unit on defense needs improvement.

The Giants team that had that little streak of games, has to replace or improve a lot of players. They won't have 4 top 70 picks and they won't have nearly as much cap space to spend.




The Giants had 23 mil in space this time last year and they have at least 27 mil now.



Dave Gettleman dished out ~110M in guaranteed money last offseason -- impacting the medium term cap space across a few years, where money is realistically spent.

It's an almost certainty he will not be spending that type of money this offseason.


The cap is a non-issue, especially so after he cuts Vernon and Ellison.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: WillVAB...  
WillVAB : 2/10/2019 12:15 pm : link
In comment 14292154 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 14292134 WillVAB said:


Quote:





1. The Giants would have to trade assets to acquire him, assuming the Bengals are even willing to part ways.

2. Heís entering the last year of his rookie deal. So toss out your economics argument.

3. If the Giants did trade for him, it would be because they view him as a long term solution at QB. That means the Giants are invested in him for a minimum of 3 years, probably more, and pass on every potential franchise QB in the draft during that time span.

What youíre proposing is a tried and failed model thatís completely short sighted. At best the Giants become the Miami Dolphins for the next 10 years.



Failed model? The team is failing now with a 38 year old QB at the helm. Basically, weíve been the Dolphins for the last seven years.

What assets to acquire him? A fourth rounder? Itís Jeff Driskell. And yes, Iím assuming a trade could be worked out. So play along.

As far as Iím concerned, Driskell would be a one year rental. The Patriots make similar moves all of the time, trying to acquire potentially undervalued asses.

Driskell has one year left on his contract at $720K. If he works and we hit on it, great. Then we consider something longer. But hereís what youíre missing - Iím trying to free up money NOW from Eliís contract to improve other areas of the team. Thatís material money to invest.

Meanwhile, Iím also drafting a QB from this draft. Preferably early - say, the second round. So Iím not stopping at Driskell. Iím getting younger and more athletic at QB. I want a QB competition right now.

Again, and let me underscore this, with or without Eli this year, we are very, very likely going nowhere. I know the Eli-always-has-excuses crowd think there is another run there, because they see Eli on the same level as Brees or Brady with poorer management, but Iím siding with the football actuarial tables on this one.

So letís get younger, save cap dollars, and get into a QB competition to see the future...

You know what would impress me? Honesty. I wish posters would just what they are really thinking - they really want to see Eli keep playing. Heís an important piece of Giants history, so let him go out on his terms. Trying to camouflage that with this other non-sense that I read - mentor the next QB, heís an oline away from making us a contender, etc - really pushes this organization deeper into a hole.

Letís start digging out of it now.


Great, letís waste a 2 and a 4 on lottery tickets with a close to zero percent chance the Giants will end up appreciably better at the QB position relative to the rest of the league.

And for the 10th time, who exactly are you buying with Eliís money?

And if the Giants are in a position to draft Fromm, Tua, Herbert, etc ó thatís gone. Now youíre committed to the next Tannehill.

Itís a terrible plan. The Giants should be looking for a long term answer that gives them a competitive advantage at the position, not simply treading water.
RE: RE: RE: RE: ...  
christian : 2/10/2019 12:17 pm : link
In comment 14292285 WillVAB said:
Quote:
In comment 14292159 christian said:


Quote:


In comment 14292105 WillVAB said:


Quote:


In comment 14292094 christian said:


Quote:


I think many of you extremely overrate the talent on this team, as did many last year.

The Giants *might* improve vastly. That could happen. As it stands basically every unit on offense outside of RB needs improvement. Every unit, literally every unit on defense needs improvement.

The Giants team that had that little streak of games, has to replace or improve a lot of players. They won't have 4 top 70 picks and they won't have nearly as much cap space to spend.




The Giants had 23 mil in space this time last year and they have at least 27 mil now.



Dave Gettleman dished out ~110M in guaranteed money last offseason -- impacting the medium term cap space across a few years, where money is realistically spent.

It's an almost certainty he will not be spending that type of money this offseason.



The cap is a non-issue, especially so after he cuts Vernon and Ellison.


Hmmmmm ... So adding an additional ~17M via cuts helps the cap situation? It's almost like that's been brought up somewhere.
bw  
HomerJones45 : 2/10/2019 12:19 pm : link
Quote:
Furthermore, I don't think we have the brainpower or creativity, like the Pats (who really does, right?), to create an optimal situation for Eli. That's why all this talk of keeping him, and continuing to build around him, is a waste of time and money.
Agreed about the Pats v. Jints Central.

I think your second sentence is a straw man. No one is saying build around him. The only issue is the stated necessity of cutting him now and not letting him play out the last year of his contract. On that one, I disagree for the reasons previously stated.
We need to do exactly what we did last draft  
PatersonPlank : 2/10/2019 12:29 pm : link
Take the best players we can. We got our RB of the future, our G of the future, and 3 DE/LB's of the future. No we didn't get a QB, but we filled a number of holes. We need to focus on getting great players, not a player who we don't believe in just because their position starts with a "Q".

Eventually we will have a good team with talent everywhere. Barkley was a sure thing, the QB's weren't, so we did the right thing. Eventually we will get a QB too.
RE: We need to do exactly what we did last draft  
christian : 2/10/2019 12:35 pm : link
In comment 14292311 PatersonPlank said:
Quote:
Take the best players we can. We got our RB of the future, our G of the future, and 3 DE/LB's of the future. No we didn't get a QB, but we filled a number of holes. We need to focus on getting great players, not a player who we don't believe in just because their position starts with a "Q".

Eventually we will have a good team with talent everywhere. Barkley was a sure thing, the QB's weren't, so we did the right thing. Eventually we will get a QB too.


Patiently building up a team is the right approach -- but at some point you have to get the QB who's a cornerstone for your run.

I tend to believe a good quarterback is much more the product of the situation than the inverse.

A young, skillsy QB, with the requisite talent can build into a winner in the NFL. Doesn't need to be a top 5 pick as repeatedly shown all over the league.

The Giants themselves are just many players away right now -- and it's going to take this and likely another offseason for the "window" to begin.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: ...  
WillVAB : 2/10/2019 1:09 pm : link
In comment 14292298 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 14292285 WillVAB said:


Quote:


In comment 14292159 christian said:


Quote:


In comment 14292105 WillVAB said:


Quote:


In comment 14292094 christian said:


Quote:


I think many of you extremely overrate the talent on this team, as did many last year.

The Giants *might* improve vastly. That could happen. As it stands basically every unit on offense outside of RB needs improvement. Every unit, literally every unit on defense needs improvement.

The Giants team that had that little streak of games, has to replace or improve a lot of players. They won't have 4 top 70 picks and they won't have nearly as much cap space to spend.




The Giants had 23 mil in space this time last year and they have at least 27 mil now.



Dave Gettleman dished out ~110M in guaranteed money last offseason -- impacting the medium term cap space across a few years, where money is realistically spent.

It's an almost certainty he will not be spending that type of money this offseason.



The cap is a non-issue, especially so after he cuts Vernon and Ellison.



Hmmmmm ... So adding an additional ~17M via cuts helps the cap situation? It's almost like that's been brought up somewhere.


The point is they donít need Eliís money. Vernon is the worst contract on the team, maybe the worst in the league. Vernon and Ellison also have multiple years left on their deals. If thereís a FA interested in coming here and the Giants need space to acquire him, those two contracts are the ones to cut first.

If the Giants had multiple studs up for a new contracts I could see the reasoning behind fretting over Eliís cap hit, but they donít. Anyone they could target in FA is speculative and thereís teams with more space even if the Giants cut Eli.
RE: We need to do exactly what we did last draft  
Jimmy Googs : 2/10/2019 1:26 pm : link
In comment 14292311 PatersonPlank said:
Quote:
Take the best players we can. We got our RB of the future, our G of the future, and 3 DE/LB's of the future. No we didn't get a QB, but we filled a number of holes. We need to focus on getting great players, not a player who we don't believe in just because their position starts with a "Q".

Eventually we will have a good team with talent everywhere. Barkley was a sure thing, the QB's weren't, so we did the right thing. Eventually we will get a QB too.


Agreed that the overall roster comes before any individual need...its the prudent play in building value and longer term stability. However, not all positions are created equal in determining success and the time it takes to reach it. "Eventually" at QB portrays a time-line that is unacceptable though and needs to incorporate a better combination of risk/reward. That doesn't mean forcing poor QB decisions but it certainly requires taking some actions on that front as it isn't going to just show up on our doorstep some day...
.  
fkap : 2/10/2019 1:27 pm : link
"Bullshit. The Pats have transformed their offense with the line and running backs; Brady got the headlines but the o-line and running game got the Pats the Lombardi- 3rd in rushing attempts, 5th in yardage and 4th in rushing td's on the season. Everyone so fixated on Brady, they didn't look to see what the Pats were actually doing.

Brady threw 2 td passes in the postseason against 3 picks while being sacked 1 time in 3 games- once. The Pats averaged 160 yards a game rushing in 3 playoff games. You don't think Eli could play behind that line?"


and yet, when people suggest improving the lines and the running game, they get derided as wasting another year and a top pick going all in on Eli.
RE: If you would cut Eli after drafting Haskins,  
djm : 2/10/2019 1:36 pm : link
In comment 14291896 Go Terps said:
Quote:
then you should be on board with cutting him regardless. What's if we draft Jones? Or Stidham?

Keeping him either makes sense or it doesn't. It doesn't.


How on earth under any and all scenarios does it make no sense to keep Eli if we draft a kid this April? What if the kid isnít ready? What if the team IS ready?

You donít allow for any middle ground thinking. Thatís insane.
Many of you here  
djm : 2/10/2019 1:50 pm : link
Think you have the cap and economic thing all figured out. You donít.

The giants have been flushing this roster for a full calendar year now. Many more high priced vets are slowly if not swiftly being phased out here, and yes that includes Eli. You sure here and talk about cap room and Eliís cap hit and how much space this year vs last year and itís all garbage to me. Itís useless conjecture being delivered as fact. Save it.

DG and Shurmur are flushing out the old and changing the entire dynamic of this roster. You might not see it but itís as clear as day. This isnít an all in on Eli thing. The cap is the least of our concerns. Tons of money is opening up these next two years.
If you draft Haskins there is no way in hell you can cut Eli.  
Zeke's Alibi : 2/10/2019 1:57 pm : link
If you do it before the roster bonus is due you just increased the price if you need to trade up for him or telegraphing teams behind us.

If you cut him after the roster bonus you are saving 12 million and still need to bring in a veteran starter because Haskins is a one year starter. Highly unlikely he'll be ready to be an opening day starter, maybe not even ready at all his rookie year. So let's say you bring in a guy at about 5 million. That's savings of 7 million. Drafting a QB is a franchise changing investment. I think that 7 million is worth the type of knowledge and wisdom Eli can impart on him.
RE: agree with Bill L and WillVAB  
bw in dc : 2/10/2019 2:32 pm : link
In comment 14292143 fkap said:
Quote:


bw said on another thread that he didn't trust one of the draft options (Haskins?) because the talent around him was so good that he had time in the pocket to relax and make thoughtful decisions. The problem with Eli is that he hasn't had the time to relax. He's shell shocked, and the 'it' factor comes and goes. Work on the OL, give Eli a reliable pocket and time to relax. I think you'll see an Eli who is good enough until the right replacement can be found.
If they think a backup, or a draft pick is the right long term solution, then go for it. But the argument should start with 'we found a good replacement', not centered around 'anybody but Eli'.


Just saw this after re-reading some of the content.

What I said, or have said but maybe I didn't make it clear, was that I wouldn't take Haskins at #6. Later in the draft? Sure.

As much as Murray scares me with his size, and believe it or not I actually find him more interesting than Haskins, Haskins scares me having played in such a club-med offense at OSU.
...  
christian : 2/10/2019 4:55 pm : link
There are three distinct, logical scenarios the Giants can manage toward:

1) Keep Manning and the core talent on the roster and try and win now
2) Keep Manning as a placeholder, trim costs elsewhere and build toward the future
3) Cut Manning and trim costs elsewhere and build towards the future

On paper right now the Giants don't have a lot of cap room comparatively. If this is a "win now" team they'll need to add a decent amount of talent and keep the talent they have.

It's easy to say cut Vernon, Ellison etc. but you have to replace that talent while adding more talent. Is that likely or easy? Of course not.

The Giants just aren't that talented -- and it's going to take more fiscal discipline, with the current and future roster.

It's going to take a major miracle to get that imbalance right in the time Manning is the QB.
I am so tired of this nonsense  
Matt M. : 2/10/2019 4:56 pm : link
If they don't cut him, there is no straight pay cut. It becomes an extension, which really makes no sense.
RE: Many of you here  
christian : 2/10/2019 5:01 pm : link
In comment 14292376 djm said:
Quote:
Think you have the cap and economic thing all figured out. You donít.

The giants have been flushing this roster for a full calendar year now. Many more high priced vets are slowly if not swiftly being phased out here, and yes that includes Eli. You sure here and talk about cap room and Eliís cap hit and how much space this year vs last year and itís all garbage to me. Itís useless conjecture being delivered as fact. Save it.

DG and Shurmur are flushing out the old and changing the entire dynamic of this roster. You might not see it but itís as clear as day. This isnít an all in on Eli thing. The cap is the least of our concerns. Tons of money is opening up these next two years.


When you say the next two years, do you mean 19 & 20, or 20 & 21 -- if it's the former -- what is your definition of a "ton?"

The Giants would need to cut a number of players to be in the neighborhood of the teams with the most cap room.
RE: ...  
WillVAB : 2/10/2019 6:16 pm : link
In comment 14292485 christian said:
Quote:
There are three distinct, logical scenarios the Giants can manage toward:

1) Keep Manning and the core talent on the roster and try and win now
2) Keep Manning as a placeholder, trim costs elsewhere and build toward the future
3) Cut Manning and trim costs elsewhere and build towards the future

On paper right now the Giants don't have a lot of cap room comparatively. If this is a "win now" team they'll need to add a decent amount of talent and keep the talent they have.

It's easy to say cut Vernon, Ellison etc. but you have to replace that talent while adding more talent. Is that likely or easy? Of course not.

The Giants just aren't that talented -- and it's going to take more fiscal discipline, with the current and future roster.

It's going to take a major miracle to get that imbalance right in the time Manning is the QB.


I wouldnít call Vernon and Ellison ďtalent.Ē Vernon hasnít done shit in two years and Ellison plays a role thatís usually occupied by a late round draft pick. Vernonís upgrade will come in the form of a cost controlled ER via the draft. Wouldnít be surprised to see the Giants come away w two ERís in the draft.

The Giants donít have many bad contracts on the books. Space will open up as they need it.
RE: ...  
Britt in VA : 2/10/2019 6:28 pm : link
In comment 14292485 christian said:
Quote:
There are three distinct, logical scenarios the Giants can manage toward:

1) Keep Manning and the core talent on the roster and try and win now
2) Keep Manning as a placeholder, trim costs elsewhere and build toward the future
3) Cut Manning and trim costs elsewhere and build towards the future

On paper right now the Giants don't have a lot of cap room comparatively. If this is a "win now" team they'll need to add a decent amount of talent and keep the talent they have.

It's easy to say cut Vernon, Ellison etc. but you have to replace that talent while adding more talent. Is that likely or easy? Of course not.

The Giants just aren't that talented -- and it's going to take more fiscal discipline, with the current and future roster.

It's going to take a major miracle to get that imbalance right in the time Manning is the QB.


I don't see a difference between #1 and #2.

Manning IS a placeholder in either scenario. He is 38. Two years or so realistically left. He is also capable of winning games if the roster is improved.
...  
christian : 2/10/2019 7:30 pm : link
Six players account for 60% of the 2019 cap. The Giants have a number of starters slated for free agency, including 3/4 of the starting secondary.

Do we all agree the Giants need more talent to eclipse the 5-11 mark and compete for the playoffs?

So hypothetically let's say the Giants eat and cut every bad contract -- the Giants get closer but aren't near the top of cap room over the next two years. They also create more holes to fill.

So let's say some of those contracts underperformed. Don't you need to exceed the contributions at those positions and upgrade the contribution at other positions to actually get better?
It's fluid....  
Britt in VA : 2/10/2019 7:37 pm : link
you can cut some and save others that are useful to you in the meantime. It's all about managing your assets.

It doesn't have to be all or nothing. It can be strategic.
RE: It's fluid....  
christian : 2/10/2019 7:46 pm : link
In comment 14292595 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
you can cut some and save others that are useful to you in the meantime. It's all about managing your assets.

It doesn't have to be all or nothing. It can be strategic.


Sure -- so what are some of those strategic moves?

I'm all for moving away from Vernon and Ellison. I'm also all for moving on from Martin.

But that creates positions where starters need to be replaced, where the replacements aren't guaranteed to be cheaper nor more productive than the incumbents.

So just practically the Giants need a center, right guard, right tackle, WR2, TE2 on offense.

Defensively a DE, 2 Edge Rushers, SS, FS, CB, nickle corner.

In my estimate that's an incredibly big task in a year.
Yeah, can't argue with it....  
Britt in VA : 2/10/2019 7:53 pm : link
Gotta be done at some point though.

Dave Gettleman started the purge midseason this year after the 1-7 start.

That shows me the guy isn't afraid to make hard moves. And on that same token, it shows me he'll cut Eli or move on from him when he strategically thinks it's time to do so.
bw  
fkap : 2/10/2019 7:56 pm : link
my point wasn't where or if to take Haskins (or any other prospect). It was about how QBs can look better given a decent line. You later commented that Eli could fill the role in New England with their better line and running game. This would seem to indicate that you believe Eli can still play to a certain extent if given time.

So why the urgency to grab at temporary fixes? Why the disparaging of the Giants over picking Barkley?

Instead of berating the Giants and being a prime cheerleader of the 'dump Eli' club, some of your comments indicate that you should be applauding the Giants for attempting to stay relevant and that they don't need to be desperate in the search for Eli's replacement.
RE: Yeah, can't argue with it....  
christian : 2/10/2019 8:42 pm : link
In comment 14292613 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
Gotta be done at some point though.

Dave Gettleman started the purge midseason this year after the 1-7 start.

That shows me the guy isn't afraid to make hard moves. And on that same token, it shows me he'll cut Eli or move on from him when he strategically thinks it's time to do so.


I think Manning does and should garner more consideration than any other player.

Even for a fan like me who's never had much personal connection to him -- I want to see the organization treat him well. And I suspect ownership and management know it's in their business and financial interest to do so.

I don't envy Gettleman. Especially when Manning shows up like he did in the back half of the season and shows he still belongs in the NFL.

If Manning was truly shot it would be much easier. He's not shot, I just think the Giants are in too deep of a hole to be a winner next year.

I hope no matter who is at QB Gettleman continues to be patient and builds up talent as the value presents itself.
RE: RE: It's fluid....  
PetesHereNow : 2/10/2019 8:49 pm : link
In comment 14292607 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 14292595 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


you can cut some and save others that are useful to you in the meantime. It's all about managing your assets.

It doesn't have to be all or nothing. It can be strategic.



Sure -- so what are some of those strategic moves?

I'm all for moving away from Vernon and Ellison. I'm also all for moving on from Martin.

But that creates positions where starters need to be replaced, where the replacements aren't guaranteed to be cheaper nor more productive than the incumbents.

So just practically the Giants need a center, right guard, right tackle, WR2, TE2 on offense.

Defensively a DE, 2 Edge Rushers, SS, FS, CB, nickle corner.

In my estimate that's an incredibly big task in a year.


Yes, there are plenty of needs, but think about it like this: you don't need stars at all of those spots. You don't need young and upcoming players everywhere. You just need guys who will give you an acceptable level of play.

Yes, we need to hit big on a few picks, as well, but you just need acceptable levels of play at some of these spots.
RE: RE: RE: It's fluid....  
christian : 2/10/2019 9:17 pm : link
In comment 14292685 PetesHereNow said:
Quote:

Yes, we need to hit big on a few picks, as well, but you just need acceptable levels of play at some of these spots.


Do you think the incumbents were playing at an acceptable level? I assume not, given 5-11.

I think finding even just acceptable at all those spots, not to mention the depth needed to survive a season is a tough task in one year.

Put it this way -- with 4 top 70 picks, and spending 110M in guaranteed money, how many positions did Gettleman upgrade to acceptable last offseason?
RE: RE: RE: RE: It's fluid....  
WillVAB : 2/10/2019 9:30 pm : link
In comment 14292737 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 14292685 PetesHereNow said:


Quote:



Yes, we need to hit big on a few picks, as well, but you just need acceptable levels of play at some of these spots.



Do you think the incumbents were playing at an acceptable level? I assume not, given 5-11.

I think finding even just acceptable at all those spots, not to mention the depth needed to survive a season is a tough task in one year.

Put it this way -- with 4 top 70 picks, and spending 110M in guaranteed money, how many positions did Gettleman upgrade to acceptable last offseason?


The Giants can be a playoff team with scrub starters at some areas if theyíre strong in the right areas. The Eagles had a garbage secondary and were potentially a dropped pass away from the NFCC.

Can they turn the OL into a strength? Can they improve the front 7 on D enough this off-season? Weíll see, but itís certainly possible given whatís likely to be available in FA and the talent in the draft.
RE: RE: I don't think having Eli in the locker room at 23 million  
Gatorade Dunk : 2/11/2019 1:05 pm : link
In comment 14291865 PetesHereNow said:
Quote:
In comment 14291846 xman said:


Quote:


or whatever exorbitant price is healthy for the team with his production. Imagine what the other players think making less then a 10th of that .

Take our lumps now. We will not be any worse in fact we will likely get better quicker




Yeah Curtis Riley, Chad Wheeler, and Spencer Pulley would be all pros if it wasnít for that way overpaid asshole making 20+ million a year.

Hereís a novel concept. Give current version of Eli a decent line and a defense that can make a stop in the 4th quarter, and maybe things are improved. Last off-season was a good draft. Letís have another one and hit on a few FAís so that when we do get the next Giants quarterback, he can succeed without the weight of the world on his shoulders.

The whole team matters. Old guys like Brady, Brees, Ben, and Rivers donít have their fan bases clamoring for their replacements. Why? Theyíre old and make a lot of money too. But, the teams around them are good enough and they continue to achieve and add to their HOF reputations.

Whereas, our Eli, he gets surrounded by stooges for about 7 years of bad drafts and our fan base has members like you in it who ignore basic obvious facts about the sport and question what the locker room thinks of him when about everyone on the current team has said heís their leader.

Yes, let's pay Eli like a franchise QB but give him the supporting cast that a rookie QB would need, and do so without the low cap cost of that rookie QB. 38 year old athletes get better than they were at 36 or 37 all the time. Shouldn't be a problem.
RE: I am so tired of this nonsense  
Gatorade Dunk : 2/11/2019 1:13 pm : link
In comment 14292488 Matt M. said:
Quote:
If they don't cut him, there is no straight pay cut. It becomes an extension, which really makes no sense.

This is completely untrue. His salary can be converted into unlikely-to-achieve incentives, which translates into immediate cap space (which would then be docked against the team in 2020 if any of those incentives are actually achieved). The Broncos did this recently with Peyton, so it's not something that the Mannings are unfamiliar with.

This idea that the only way to trim salary is by extending is a total myth.
RE: RE: RE: I don't think having Eli in the locker room at 23 million  
Lambuth_Special : 2/11/2019 1:36 pm : link
Quote:
The whole team matters. Old guys like Brady, Brees, Ben, and Rivers donít have their fan bases clamoring for their replacements. Why? Theyíre old and make a lot of money too. But, the teams around them are good enough and they continue to achieve and add to their HOF reputations.


The gap between Brady, Brees, Ben, Rivers, and Eli has been pretty large from 2016-2018 save for Rivers' 2016 season.

The combination of getting the right team in place and having faith that doing so will catapult Eli back into the top ten of QBs - before he ages out of effectiveness - is pretty risky.

Not many QBs play well past age 38, save for Brady, Moon, and Brees (who fell off in the latter half of 2018 regardless).
RE: RE: RE: RE: I don't think having Eli in the locker room at 23 million  
Zeke's Alibi : 2/11/2019 1:43 pm : link
In comment 14293380 Lambuth_Special said:
Quote:


Quote:


The whole team matters. Old guys like Brady, Brees, Ben, and Rivers donít have their fan bases clamoring for their replacements. Why? Theyíre old and make a lot of money too. But, the teams around them are good enough and they continue to achieve and add to their HOF reputations.



The gap between Brady, Brees, Ben, Rivers, and Eli has been pretty large from 2016-2018 save for Rivers' 2016 season.

The combination of getting the right team in place and having faith that doing so will catapult Eli back into the top ten of QBs - before he ages out of effectiveness - is pretty risky.

Not many QBs play well past age 38, save for Brady, Moon, and Brees (who fell off in the latter half of 2018 regardless).


Brees arm has been an issue two years in a row in the second half of the season. He refuses to pull the trigger deep anymore because he knows he can't get it there anymore.
There the Giants go again  
lawguy9801 : 2/11/2019 2:04 pm : link
rewarding for past performance instead of looking to the future.

Millions that could be spent shoring up the OL, or to fill one of the many other holes, will go to Eli as a lifetime achievement award.

This is how losing franchises operate, and lo and behold, the Giants have been losers for a long time. Get ready for 6-10 at best in 2019.
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