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Silva: Giants will keep Manning and NOT request paycut

CromartiesKid21 : 2/9/2019 11:09 am
Evan Silva
@evansilva
Releasing Eli Manning before his $5 million bonus comes due on 3/17 would save $17 million vs the cap, but "the sense is the #Giants will keep Manning" & "requesting a straight pay cut from a player beloved within the organization seems unlikely."
...  
BleedBlue : 2/9/2019 11:10 am : link
smh wow.


thats really bad if true. IF they take a QB, i guess he benefits from learning behind eli for a year, but this really hurts in terms of cap. he is being paid like a top performing player and he really isnt
This dipshit took the quote from Dugganís  
aimrocky : 2/9/2019 11:13 am : link
Article earlier this week. This isnít new and just speculating.
Fine, but give him a chance!  
Jim in Forest Hills : 2/9/2019 11:16 am : link
Forget the QB this year, go all in on Eli, no more half assed plans. Go big with Eli this year and look to the QB in 2020. Use that #6 pick on a ER or an OL.
Evan Silva is a fantasy football guy.  
Strahan91 : 2/9/2019 11:16 am : link
Not an insider who reports news and rumors. He's also a widely known Giants hater. He's just posting Duggan's article and quote to mock them.
RE: Fine, but give him a chance!  
Strahan91 : 2/9/2019 11:16 am : link
In comment 14291570 Jim in Forest Hills said:
Quote:
Forget the QB this year, go all in on Eli, no more half assed plans. Go big with Eli this year and look to the QB in 2020. Use that #6 pick on a ER or an OL.

lol, c'mon.
RE: Fine, but give him a chance!  
uther99 : 2/9/2019 11:17 am : link
In comment 14291570 Jim in Forest Hills said:
Quote:
Forget the QB this year, go all in on Eli, no more half assed plans. Go big with Eli this year and look to the QB in 2020. Use that #6 pick on a ER or an OL.


wasnt that the plan for 2018?
RE: RE: Fine, but give him a chance!  
BleedBlue : 2/9/2019 11:19 am : link
In comment 14291572 Strahan91 said:
Quote:
In comment 14291570 Jim in Forest Hills said:


Quote:


Forget the QB this year, go all in on Eli, no more half assed plans. Go big with Eli this year and look to the QB in 2020. Use that #6 pick on a ER or an OL.


lol, c'mon.



the 2020 argument is getting exhausting guys.

WHO KNOWS IF WE HAVE A SHOT AT THOSE TOP GUYS.

1. we improved from last year, another offseason could improve us AGAIN.
We will be closer to a fringe playoff team than the worst team in football

2. who knows if tua, fromm, herbert even turn out to be anything. what if they all have terrrible years? suffer a major injury? Its not like those three havent had shaky moments or dont have question marks.


i am not a fan of saying lets just wait, there is SO much that can happen between now and then. you take BPA. if need matches BPA, you have a homerun
RE: Fine, but give him a chance!  
christian : 2/9/2019 11:22 am : link
In comment 14291570 Jim in Forest Hills said:
Quote:
Forget the QB this year, go all in on Eli, no more half assed plans. Go big with Eli this year and look to the QB in 2020. Use that #6 pick on a ER or an OL.


Go big as in what -- trade up in the draft? Sign a bunch of free agents?
My point exactly.  
Strahan91 : 2/9/2019 11:23 am : link
The draft should be about the next 4-5 years at a minimum. Not the next year. That's what Reese did year after year, reaching for positions of need. We saw where that got us. Not to mention, the margin for error in the NFL is very small. One bad call in a game you need to win to get to the playoffs and your all in on x year plan blows up in your face.
...  
christian : 2/9/2019 11:40 am : link
The notion Manning isn't replaceable unless some magical year comes around is comical.

You think the Bears, Chiefs, or Texans are gnashing their teeth they didn't wait for the incomparible 2018 class?

If the Giants can some how just hold out, Peyton's son should be declaring eligible in 16 years. That's a good target.
RE: Fine, but give him a chance!  
Diver_Down : 2/9/2019 11:42 am : link
In comment 14291570 Jim in Forest Hills said:
Quote:
Forget the QB this year, go all in on Eli, no more half assed plans. Go big with Eli this year and look to the QB in 2020. Use that #6 pick on a ER or an OL.


Let's keep in mind that at the end of the season, Archie was quoted as saying, "But if he [Eli] comes back, the Giants have got to win." Archie is relaying what Eli and him have discussed. It just isn't a flippant response.

Eli doesn't owe the Giants anything and is under no obligation to assist through a transition. He isn't going to dictate to Dave how to execute a FA plan or a draft strategy. But he will be keenly observing the acquisitions. If any of the moves don't serve a "win now" goal, Eli might just retire.
"Beloved within the organization"  
Go Terps : 2/9/2019 11:48 am : link
Great business practice there. Frank Gifford was beloved too. Let's exhume him and dust off #16.

Fucking joke.
RE: RE: Fine, but give him a chance!  
christian : 2/9/2019 11:55 am : link
In comment 14291587 Diver_Down said:
Quote:
In comment 14291570 Jim in Forest Hills said:


Quote:


Forget the QB this year, go all in on Eli, no more half assed plans. Go big with Eli this year and look to the QB in 2020. Use that #6 pick on a ER or an OL.



Let's keep in mind that at the end of the season, Archie was quoted as saying, "But if he [Eli] comes back, the Giants have got to win." Archie is relaying what Eli and him have discussed. It just isn't a flippant response.

Eli doesn't owe the Giants anything and is under no obligation to assist through a transition. He isn't going to dictate to Dave how to execute a FA plan or a draft strategy. But he will be keenly observing the acquisitions. If any of the moves don't serve a "win now" goal, Eli might just retire.


If Manning takes his roster bonus -- the takes his toys and goes home because he doesn't like how the team is managed, that's pathetic.

I deeply hope he doesn't go outike that.
Iím fine going one more season with him  
UConn4523 : 2/9/2019 11:55 am : link
but to not even request a pay cut would be absurd. Iíll wait for confirmation on that but that conversation has to happen.
I love Eli & all he's done for this franchise.  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 2/9/2019 11:57 am : link
But not even inquire about a paycut? Come on.
He's got one year left on his contract  
HomerJones45 : 2/9/2019 11:58 am : link
This is just common sense. If they draft a qb, he gets to sit for a year. If they don't, they can draft one next year and start him. Some of you act like either of these scenarios is foreclosed forever if Manning plays out his contract.
the Giants have no leverage  
fkap : 2/9/2019 11:58 am : link
to force a paycut.

If they're going with Eli for the year, it's either give him more money for an extension, or stick with the contract as is.

I'd rather not extend and push dead money on next year.

The question is whether to go with Eli this year, or cut him.

As I've said before, keeping Eli for the last year of his contract does not prevent bringing in FA this year. First year cap hit is typically low, then will be escalating when Eli's hit is coming off the books.
So Eli won't take a paycut, but he'll retire forgoing that salary?  
Zeke's Alibi : 2/9/2019 12:00 pm : link
That dog don't hunt. He's just using Archie to put pressure on DG to overpay for some pieces to win this year.

DG got ran outta Carolina because of his refusal to overpay players beloved by the organization. He understands this is a business.
RE: the Giants have no leverage  
HomerJones45 : 2/9/2019 12:08 pm : link
In comment 14291595 fkap said:
Quote:
to force a paycut.

If they're going with Eli for the year, it's either give him more money for an extension, or stick with the contract as is.

I'd rather not extend and push dead money on next year.

The question is whether to go with Eli this year, or cut him.

As I've said before, keeping Eli for the last year of his contract does not prevent bringing in FA this year. First year cap hit is typically low, then will be escalating when Eli's hit is coming off the books.
Exactly. They have no leverage.

You may see a parade of other team's failed #1's in here to find the next Kerry Collins.
Shocker.  
Britt in VA : 2/9/2019 12:08 pm : link
.
RE: RE: RE: Fine, but give him a chance!  
Diver_Down : 2/9/2019 12:09 pm : link
In comment 14291591 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 14291587 Diver_Down said:


Quote:


In comment 14291570 Jim in Forest Hills said:


Quote:


Forget the QB this year, go all in on Eli, no more half assed plans. Go big with Eli this year and look to the QB in 2020. Use that #6 pick on a ER or an OL.



Let's keep in mind that at the end of the season, Archie was quoted as saying, "But if he [Eli] comes back, the Giants have got to win." Archie is relaying what Eli and him have discussed. It just isn't a flippant response.

Eli doesn't owe the Giants anything and is under no obligation to assist through a transition. He isn't going to dictate to Dave how to execute a FA plan or a draft strategy. But he will be keenly observing the acquisitions. If any of the moves don't serve a "win now" goal, Eli might just retire.



If Manning takes his roster bonus -- the takes his toys and goes home because he doesn't like how the team is managed, that's pathetic.

I deeply hope he doesn't go outike that.


Why? It is a team option roster bonus. Eli has no control. It is either paid on 3/17 or it isn't. There is nothing stopping from Eli staying away for OTAs and training camp. If he is on the 53 man roster, he can retire the next day with his salary guaranteed.

Sounds like a spin job  
ArlingtonMike : 2/9/2019 12:12 pm : link
Giants donít want to repeat last years media debacle or the fallback from the Simms mismanagement.

The truth is they really have little choice. They can really only release or extend. The latter option results in the need to sign somebody like Foles and Bridgewater with little cost savings.

Iím very tired of hearing how they screwed up last year. Move on and do the best you can to grow the team. The second half of last year witnessed a resurgent offense and depleted defense. Get a ER in the first, a center/guard with the 2nd and roll the dice
RE: This dipshit took the quote from Dugganís  
Ssanders9816 : 2/9/2019 12:13 pm : link
In comment 14291569 aimrocky said:
Quote:
Article earlier this week. This isnít new and just speculating.


+1

LOL at everyone above getting all fired up
RE: So Eli won't take a paycut, but he'll retire forgoing that salary?  
Diver_Down : 2/9/2019 12:14 pm : link
In comment 14291597 Zeke's Alibi said:
Quote:
That dog don't hunt. He's just using Archie to put pressure on DG to overpay for some pieces to win this year.

DG got ran outta Carolina because of his refusal to overpay players beloved by the organization. He understands this is a business.


Eli doesn't have to take a paycut. He can retire on 3/18 $5M richer. He can forfeit his $250K workout bonus by skipping OTAs. He can even skip training camp incurring a $30K fine for each day. If he is on the 53 man roster, he can retire the next day and collect his full salary.
RE: Shocker.  
Go Terps : 2/9/2019 12:15 pm : link
In comment 14291601 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
.


Not surprising at all, true.
RE: Fine, but give him a chance!  
LawrenceTaylor56 : 2/9/2019 12:15 pm : link
In comment 14291570 Jim in Forest Hills said:
Quote:
Forget the QB this year, go all in on Eli, no more half assed plans. Go big with Eli this year and look to the QB in 2020. Use that #6 pick on a ER or an OL.


Still clueless.
Umm  
mdthedream : 2/9/2019 12:19 pm : link
would be scene as unlikely. OK so this is not fact just opinion.
...  
christian : 2/9/2019 12:20 pm : link
If Manning intends on retiring, he should just retire.

Taking his roster bonus, and observing skeptically before he decides to play or not is team wrecking.
RE: RE: So Eli won't take a paycut, but he'll retire forgoing that salary?  
Zeke's Alibi : 2/9/2019 12:21 pm : link
In comment 14291608 Diver_Down said:
Quote:
In comment 14291597 Zeke's Alibi said:


Quote:


That dog don't hunt. He's just using Archie to put pressure on DG to overpay for some pieces to win this year.

DG got ran outta Carolina because of his refusal to overpay players beloved by the organization. He understands this is a business.



Eli doesn't have to take a paycut. He can retire on 3/18 $5M richer. He can forfeit his $250K workout bonus by skipping OTAs. He can even skip training camp incurring a $30K fine for each day. If he is on the 53 man roster, he can retire the next day and collect his full salary.


When you retire you forgo your salary. Salary is only guaranteed in case of injury.
RE: RE: RE: So Eli won't take a paycut, but he'll retire forgoing that salary?  
Diver_Down : 2/9/2019 12:23 pm : link
In comment 14291614 Zeke's Alibi said:
Quote:
In comment 14291608 Diver_Down said:


Quote:


In comment 14291597 Zeke's Alibi said:


Quote:


That dog don't hunt. He's just using Archie to put pressure on DG to overpay for some pieces to win this year.

DG got ran outta Carolina because of his refusal to overpay players beloved by the organization. He understands this is a business.



Eli doesn't have to take a paycut. He can retire on 3/18 $5M richer. He can forfeit his $250K workout bonus by skipping OTAs. He can even skip training camp incurring a $30K fine for each day. If he is on the 53 man roster, he can retire the next day and collect his full salary.



When you retire you forgo your salary. Salary is only guaranteed in case of injury.


CBA allows for vested veterans to claim their full salary once in their career. Nice try.
Actually if he were to retire the Giants could, in theory, go  
Zeke's Alibi : 2/9/2019 12:23 pm : link
after his prorated guaranteed money as well.
That is in the case of being cut  
Zeke's Alibi : 2/9/2019 12:26 pm : link
not in the case of retirement. It is why the teams can go after prorated guaranteed money if they desire.
RE: Actually if he were to retire the Giants could, in theory, go  
Diver_Down : 2/9/2019 12:28 pm : link
In comment 14291616 Zeke's Alibi said:
Quote:
after his prorated guaranteed money as well.


If he retires before the final 53, yes, there is $6.2M in signing bonus that could be recouped at the team option. After the final 53, there is no more prorated signing bonus to recoup. Also, if you think Mara would sign off on pursuing $6.2M, you haven't been following the Giants for long. If Eli retires after his RB, Mara would just shrug his shoulders at the $5M and consider it Eli's gold watch.
One more year  
jeff57 : 2/9/2019 12:28 pm : link
Thatís it.
PS  
Zeke's Alibi : 2/9/2019 12:28 pm : link
Nice Try. See I can be a smarmy dick too.
Yes in the case of him making the final 53 his guranteed money will be  
Zeke's Alibi : 2/9/2019 12:29 pm : link
paid. But not his salary. In what world is Eli going to retire a week before the season though?
RE:  
Boy Cord : 2/9/2019 12:29 pm : link
In comment 14291589 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Great business practice there. Frank Gifford was beloved too. Let's exhume him and dust off #16.

Fucking joke.


Seriously. What a horrible way to run an NFL team.
RE:  
Ssanders9816 : 2/9/2019 12:30 pm : link
In comment 14291589 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Great business practice there. Frank Gifford was beloved too. Let's exhume him and dust off #16.

Fucking joke.


The bigger joke is you and others getting fired up by EVAN SILVAs speculation when he has no clue whatís really going to transpire.
All this does is help ensure a top 10 pick again in 2020  
The_Boss : 2/9/2019 12:31 pm : link
Eli, as a player, is a bottom tiered QB in this league. The cap space heíll occupy will preclude the team from really adding much in terms of quality. And, maybe another 4-6 win season ushers in a new GM/HC. If this is the bed they want to sleep in, so be it.
This is all ridiculous conjecture anyway.  
Zeke's Alibi : 2/9/2019 12:31 pm : link
.
It was never about a pay cut  
Chip : 2/9/2019 12:32 pm : link
his salary this year counting bonus is only 17 mil. The pro ration was created to recover cap space in other years. The bigger question was always an extension to lower this years number.
RE: It was never about a pay cut  
Zeke's Alibi : 2/9/2019 12:36 pm : link
In comment 14291631 Chip said:
Quote:
his salary this year counting bonus is only 17 mil. The pro ration was created to recover cap space in other years. The bigger question was always an extension to lower this years number.


Honestly if he doesn't get an extension I think it could be a sign they like a QB this year. If they gave him a one year extension at 8-10 million you now are paying Eli reasonable money to man the helm for two years and help whoever they draft in 2020.
Extending Eli would be a colossal error.  
Jim in Forest Hills : 2/9/2019 12:37 pm : link
We have Eli at $23M this year, fortify the lines and go for it.

If they draft a QB, Eli needs to be on a new team.
It's not the best decision  
AcesUp : 2/9/2019 12:38 pm : link
But it is the obvious one. Outside of a trade, you have to cut Eli with Lauletta and Tanney as your only options prior to locking in a replacement via the draft and/or free agency. That's a risk that guys coming off a 5 win season in a loud and fickle market aren't going to take.

As long as there isn't an extension or they decide to lock in a big money QB FA for multiple years I'm okay and at peace with any decision.
*decide not to lock in  
AcesUp : 2/9/2019 12:39 pm : link
.
If you go by cap number,  
Doomster : 2/9/2019 12:55 pm : link
in 2019 Eli's cap # ranks him 10th-12th, tied with Cam and Big Ben.....

That is tempered by the fact that Rivers, Ryan, Carr, Bortles, Keenum, Winston, Mariotta are just 1-2M behind him....

So is he being paid like a top QB, with a base of 17M?

He is actually paid, just about middle of the road...

What it comes down to is, the Giants want to rebuild, but they want to be competitive also.....in doing so, they actually lengthen the time it will take for this team to be a true contender...
They do have to keep Eli this year. It's a shame if they can't  
Blue21 : 2/9/2019 1:02 pm : link
rework the contract. My guess Eli says no unless he's extended which the Giants won't do. So it's pay him full amount or cut him which they can't do. They need a vet QB this year. Rock and a hard place. If this is the case I can't blame either for doing what they each feel needs to be done. If I was Eli I wouldn't take a pay cut either. And believe me I'm no Eli apologist.
Guy is a total hack  
ryanmkeane : 2/9/2019 1:05 pm : link
and spends the majority of his days tweeting about how he hates Gettleman and the Giants. Heís a nerd.
RE: Guy is a total hack  
crick n NC : 2/9/2019 1:20 pm : link
In comment 14291655 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
and spends the majority of his days tweeting about how he hates Gettleman and the Giants. Heís a nerd.


Well, what he says furthers the cause of some, so it's true information regardless.
RE: RE: Guy is a total hack  
Ssanders9816 : 2/9/2019 1:27 pm : link
In comment 14291663 crick n NC said:
Quote:
In comment 14291655 ryanmkeane said:


Quote:


and spends the majority of his days tweeting about how he hates Gettleman and the Giants. Heís a nerd.



Well, what he says furthers the cause of some, so it's true information regardless.


Youíre right all OPINIONS are ďtrueĒ in a sense.
...  
christian : 2/9/2019 1:28 pm : link
It's strange this guy's career is re-saying things other people say, and then pissing off fans. That's hardcore talent.
Not surprised at all  
Rick in Dallas : 2/9/2019 1:35 pm : link
I always thought Giants would honor the final year of his contract. Now the question is who will be our next QB.
I am not totally sold on Haskins at this time. I need to see him throw at the combine
RE: ...  
Ssanders9816 : 2/9/2019 1:55 pm : link
In comment 14291669 christian said:
Quote:
It's strange this guy's career is re-saying things other people say, and then pissing off fans. That's hardcore talent.


And clowns fall for it every time (see Terps above).
He may be a hack...  
Britt in VA : 2/9/2019 1:59 pm : link
but what he's saying is going to happen is likely going to happen so anybody that's surprised by this should prepare themselves.
It will be utterly hilarious if this is true  
PetesHereNow : 2/9/2019 1:59 pm : link
and the Giants can have another good draft and hit on a couple FAís.

If these hypotheticals happen and if the Giants have a good year behind Eli, will that be enough for some to get that other players besides the quarterback matter?
It will be utterly hilarious if this is true  
PetesHereNow : 2/9/2019 2:00 pm : link
and the Giants can have another good draft and hit on a couple FAís.

If these hypotheticals happen and if the Giants have a good year behind Eli, will that be enough for some to get that other players besides the quarterback matter?
RE: He may be a hack...  
christian : 2/9/2019 2:08 pm : link
In comment 14291683 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
but what he's saying is going to happen is likely going to happen so anybody that's surprised by this should prepare themselves.


1) He didn't even say it -- he's quoting someone who said it -- which makes him something much less useful than even a hack.

2) Do you really read this site and think people are "surprised" the Giants err on the side of loyalty to Manning?

I think you routinely confuse surprise with disappointment and criticism.
This should be no surprise  
mrvax : 2/9/2019 2:12 pm : link
to any BBI regular.

RE: He's got one year left on his contract  
giantstock : 2/9/2019 2:12 pm : link
In comment 14291594 HomerJones45 said:
Quote:
This is just common sense. If they draft a qb, he gets to sit for a year. If they don't, they can draft one next year and start him. Some of you act like either of these scenarios is foreclosed forever if Manning plays out his contract.


SO if you are talking 2020 - you're in the camp that the Gmen must draft "to need?"

Many on here believe you go BPA and that's it. So next year you are all-in to draft by need even if the QB is either mediocre of you have to go beyond extreme to trade up and get one?

How many offensive linemen should the giants get in Free Agency? You need two? Because GMen 1st rd pick you won't take one with the 6th pick because more than likely that is not an OLineman. And the 2nd rd pick isn't going ot be assured of a starter, will it more than likely? ELi needs an OL due to immobility.

There was no chance he was going to be cut  
Eli Wilson : 2/9/2019 2:16 pm : link
Or asked for a straight paycut.

Really only were 3 possibilities :

1)Extension
2)Play out the year
3)Retirement

RE: There was no chance he was going to be cut  
Britt in VA : 2/9/2019 2:18 pm : link
In comment 14291700 Eli Wilson said:
Quote:
Or asked for a straight paycut.

Really only were 3 possibilities :

1)Extension
2)Play out the year
3)Retirement


Correct.
RE: He may be a hack...  
aimrocky : 2/9/2019 2:19 pm : link
In comment 14291683 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
but what he's saying is going to happen is likely going to happen so anybody that's surprised by this should prepare themselves.


Duggan said it. This shit stain regurgitated it.
He should be cut  
GoBlue6599 : 2/9/2019 2:48 pm : link
Only the Giants would be foolish enough to waste 23 million in cap space on a bottom tier QB.. Let him test Free Agency, thereís not a team in the NFL that will commit to Eli as the starter, besides the 5 win Giants
Mara is clueless please sell the team
RE: RE: RE: RE: Fine, but give him a chance!  
ron mexico : 2/9/2019 2:57 pm : link
In comment 14291602 Diver_Down said:
Quote:
In comment 14291591 christian said:


Quote:


In comment 14291587 Diver_Down said:


Quote:


In comment 14291570 Jim in Forest Hills said:


Quote:


Forget the QB this year, go all in on Eli, no more half assed plans. Go big with Eli this year and look to the QB in 2020. Use that #6 pick on a ER or an OL.



Let's keep in mind that at the end of the season, Archie was quoted as saying, "But if he [Eli] comes back, the Giants have got to win." Archie is relaying what Eli and him have discussed. It just isn't a flippant response.

Eli doesn't owe the Giants anything and is under no obligation to assist through a transition. He isn't going to dictate to Dave how to execute a FA plan or a draft strategy. But he will be keenly observing the acquisitions. If any of the moves don't serve a "win now" goal, Eli might just retire.



If Manning takes his roster bonus -- the takes his toys and goes home because he doesn't like how the team is managed, that's pathetic.

I deeply hope he doesn't go outike that.



Why? It is a team option roster bonus. Eli has no control. It is either paid on 3/17 or it isn't. There is nothing stopping from Eli staying away for OTAs and training camp. If he is on the 53 man roster, he can retire the next day with his salary guaranteed.


I assume you are a big fan of Eli for the way he handles himself off the field as much as how he does in it.

To suggest Eli would even comtplate such a thing is redicoulous.
Ron  
Diver_Down : 2/9/2019 3:02 pm : link
I'm one of Eli's biggest fans. I realize that it isn't likely based on how Eli carries himself on and off the field. But you also have to realize that it was I who advocated Eli to holdout 2 years ago. Eli doesn't owe this franchise a thing. He should only be looking out for his own interests.
RE: RE: He may be a hack...  
Jimmy Googs : 2/9/2019 3:06 pm : link
In comment 14291702 aimrocky said:
Quote:
In comment 14291683 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


but what he's saying is going to happen is likely going to happen so anybody that's surprised by this should prepare themselves.



Duggan said it. This shit stain regurgitated it.


yes, a lot of shit stains seem to repeat it...
Wow, nice.  
Britt in VA : 2/9/2019 3:07 pm : link
.
RE: Ron  
ron mexico : 2/9/2019 3:09 pm : link
In comment 14291715 Diver_Down said:
Quote:
I'm one of Eli's biggest fans. I realize that it isn't likely based on how Eli carries himself on and off the field. But you also have to realize that it was I who advocated Eli to holdout 2 years ago. Eli doesn't owe this franchise a thing. He should only be looking out for his own interests.


Lol ok Tom Cordon.
Asking Eli to take a cut this coming year  
djm : 2/9/2019 3:14 pm : link
Is crap.

The cap hasnít killed the giants the last so many years. Bad drafts have.

Cap is the least of our problems. You guys literally obsess over this shit.
Silva is a Fuckturd  
Giants38 : 2/9/2019 3:14 pm : link
At one point last year, he summarized Barkleyís performance against the Titans by saying he racked up 38 or whatever it was ďgenerational yardsĒ. If that doesnít let you know how much he hates the Giants, I donít know what will.

While he is reporting what another said, he also shares his opinion. I imagine if the Giants won the Super Bowl he would say it was complete luck. I agreed with his opinion that the Giants should have selected a QB at 2, his repetitive tweets minute after minute reporting were aggravating. When I said as much, he called the Giants fan base ďthe most sensitive fan baseĒ and blocked me. Heís a fuckturd.
Thereís absolutely nothing wrong  
djm : 2/9/2019 3:22 pm : link
With keeping Eli this year and going into the draft cautiously and realistically looking to draft one of the highly ranked qbs. Youíre not even saying that much if any if you sign a cheaper vet and youíre downgrading. thereís also nothing wrong with letting the kid sit for a couple months into his rookie year while letting Eli try and keep his job one more time. If Eli plays well and the team is winning? Great! If not, play the kid and donít look back.

Of course this wonít stop many of you from gojng ape shit and killing the giants. If they do anything itís awful because they suck and ok we get it.
RE: Asking Eli to take a cut this coming year  
AcesUp : 2/9/2019 3:39 pm : link
In comment 14291725 djm said:
Quote:


The cap hasnít killed the giants the last so many years. Bad drafts have.



Both statements are true. However, the first sentence is only true because of the second. There's a 5-6 year blackhole where our shitty drafting afforded us the luxury of not having to hand out big second contracts to our own. That has already started to change. OBJ just signed a mega-extension. Collins is on deck. Shep is behind him. If DG continues to draft well, you bet your ass that it's a concern because mismanaging the cap can undo good drafting when those players walk.

Knee jerk response to that is "we worry about that once we draft well". Cap is fluid though. Financial decisions in 2019 have a residual effect in future years, which impact decisions in those years that have a residual effect even further out, etc, etc. Wastefully allocating resources in what is a transition year may impact us when we actually need the money to compete. That is why it matters.
RE: Asking Eli to take a cut this coming year  
christian : 2/9/2019 3:45 pm : link
In comment 14291725 djm said:
Quote:
Is crap.

The cap hasnít killed the giants the last so many years. Bad drafts have.

Cap is the least of our problems. You guys literally obsess over this shit.


The Giants have compounded bad drafts with bad cap allocation. They have 57% of this year's cap allocated to 6 players -- and a number of holes to fill on the roster. Most notably on defense, which you post about frequently.

The Giants bad cap allocation is most certainly not the least of their problems.

They might not be in proverbial cap hell -- but they are bottom third in monies to spend over the next two years with plenty of problem areas.
RE: All this does is help ensure a top 10 pick again in 2020  
WillVAB : 2/9/2019 3:47 pm : link
In comment 14291627 The_Boss said:
Quote:
Eli, as a player, is a bottom tiered QB in this league. The cap space heíll occupy will preclude the team from really adding much in terms of quality. And, maybe another 4-6 win season ushers in a new GM/HC. If this is the bed they want to sleep in, so be it.


Eliís cap hit wonít preclude the Giants from adding quality players in FA.
I don't see this as a big deal  
Andrew in Austin : 2/9/2019 4:33 pm : link
I am of the camp of keeping Eli and grabbing his successor in the draft.

1. He will end up in the middle of salary ranges
2. He has a maximum of one year here - good or bad season
3. He can mentor the new kid on the block

Frankly, when our OL stopped looking like the Ram's OL in the Superbowl, he played a lot better. I'm not sure anyone plays well with the crappy work our OL did in the 1st half of the season.

Get a new guy in free agency and I doubt you are saving much money. Getting a new draft pick, you are probably not throwing him to the wolves to start with regardless.
It's simple  
Go Terps : 2/9/2019 4:42 pm : link
Is Eli worth $23M? Is having him in 2019 worth the $17M in cap space we'd get by cutting him?

The answer to both questions is a resounding no. The only reason to keep him is nostalgia.

So it's no surprise the team sucks. It's run like a mom and pop malt shop.
Montana, Favre, even Eli's brother  
NINEster : 2/9/2019 5:05 pm : link
all got sent packing. These are people possibly even more beloved to their original teams than Eli is to the Giants.

Alex Smith has never won a championship but has overcome a tough first 5 years to produce a better winning percentage overall and only 22 less wins total (94-66-1 to 116-114-0).

He has been shown the door twice now while coming off playoff appearances. If he returns to play football again it's likely it will happen a 3rd time.

Even Brady was close to being sent packing. Kraft prevented it otherwise now maybe Brady is the Niner QB, and Jimmy is in NE.

Forget the streak, Eli really is the iron man of QBs.
RE: It's simple  
Toth029 : 2/9/2019 5:08 pm : link
In comment 14291773 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Is Eli worth $23M? Is having him in 2019 worth the $17M in cap space we'd get by cutting him?

The answer to both questions is a resounding no. The only reason to keep him is nostalgia.

So it's no surprise the team sucks. It's run like a mom and pop malt shop.

He's there until next season. They don't want to go into the season with a rookie and nothing else behind him. If they had another vet, he costs an awful lot and will be worse than Manning. The likes of Bridgewater, Tyrod, Bradford, please, they're terrible. No one is fighting over for their services.
RE: It's simple  
djm : 2/9/2019 5:15 pm : link
In comment 14291773 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Is Eli worth $23M? Is having him in 2019 worth the $17M in cap space we'd get by cutting him?

The answer to both questions is a resounding no. The only reason to keep him is nostalgia.

So it's no surprise the team sucks. It's run like a mom and pop malt shop.


Right, letís not even bother to consider that signing a vet like bridgewater or Flacco ends up with the giants spending the same qb money in 2019 anyway. And now they are even worse at the position. Nope, itís all about the platitudes. Itís all about how much Eli is worth... whatever the hell that even means at this point.

Oh, we could sign Tyrod Taylor and develop him into something more than backup qb. That would work out well Iím sure.

The qb position isnít in a state of crisis no matter how you slice it.
RE: It's simple  
HomerJones45 : 2/9/2019 5:17 pm : link
In comment 14291773 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Is Eli worth $23M? Is having him in 2019 worth the $17M in cap space we'd get by cutting him?

The answer to both questions is a resounding no. The only reason to keep him is nostalgia.

So it's no surprise the team sucks. It's run like a mom and pop malt shop.
No, although with Nick Foles getting $20 million, you have to wonder. So what's your point? You want to buy another batch of over-priced free agents? That the team is so stacked that Manning alone is keeping us out of the playoffs? Extend one of our irreplaceable players who . . .shudder . . . might leave? Please.

Your assumption is that this team would contend for a title but for Manning. Examine your assumption.
RE: RE: It's simple  
christian : 2/9/2019 5:22 pm : link
In comment 14291790 Toth029 said:
Quote:
In comment 14291773 Go Terps said:


Quote:


Is Eli worth $23M? Is having him in 2019 worth the $17M in cap space we'd get by cutting him?

The answer to both questions is a resounding no. The only reason to keep him is nostalgia.

So it's no surprise the team sucks. It's run like a mom and pop malt shop.


He's there until next season. They don't want to go into the season with a rookie and nothing else behind him. If they had another vet, he costs an awful lot and will be worse than Manning. The likes of Bridgewater, Tyrod, Bradford, please, they're terrible. No one is fighting over for their services.


The Giants would be signing a placeholder to help install the offense, keep the team functional, and wait until the rookie could play.

There is nothing exotic about this approach.

Moving onto a rookie means there will be growing pains -- exactly how Eli Manning came to be a starter on this team.
RE: RE: It's simple  
HomerJones45 : 2/9/2019 5:24 pm : link
In comment 14291796 djm said:
Quote:
In comment 14291773 Go Terps said:


Quote:


Is Eli worth $23M? Is having him in 2019 worth the $17M in cap space we'd get by cutting him?

The answer to both questions is a resounding no. The only reason to keep him is nostalgia.

So it's no surprise the team sucks. It's run like a mom and pop malt shop.



Right, letís not even bother to consider that signing a vet like bridgewater or Flacco ends up with the giants spending the same qb money in 2019 anyway. And now they are even worse at the position. Nope, itís all about the platitudes. Itís all about how much Eli is worth... whatever the hell that even means at this point.

Oh, we could sign Tyrod Taylor and develop him into something more than backup qb. That would work out well Iím sure.

The qb position isnít in a state of crisis no matter how you slice it.
+1
RE: It's simple  
WillVAB : 2/9/2019 5:27 pm : link
In comment 14291773 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Is Eli worth $23M? Is having him in 2019 worth the $17M in cap space we'd get by cutting him?

The answer to both questions is a resounding no. The only reason to keep him is nostalgia.

So it's no surprise the team sucks. It's run like a mom and pop malt shop.


The cap hit/space only matters if itís preventing the Giants from signing one or more players in FA. Who are they potentially missing out on?

You keep bringing up the cap hit without providing any FA plan that makes the team better.

Cap space for the sake of cap space means nothing.
.  
Go Terps : 2/9/2019 6:20 pm : link
I've never suggested signing a veteran at a cost similar to Eli's. I've also not suggested that this team can compete for a title if it cuts Eli.

It's amazing how poorly people read, and how rolling they are to put words in your mouth.
We don't need the cap space.  
mittenedman : 2/9/2019 6:21 pm : link
People, myself included, want to build through the draft. The cap has gone up and the QB costing $23.2M isn't destroying anything if, again, you want to build through the draft.

Going on Snyder-like free agent spending isn't a good idea even if it looks good in March and Madden. Giants should stay the course, get a "choice" free agent of 2 and another strong draft. Do just as they say: continue to address the OL, add talent to the D.

I see a lot of "Giants stuck in their old ways". Not buying it. Their old ways work. Great run game, play action to receivers who know what they're doing and a strong D = contender. There is no stopping it and Eli has shown he can go all the way, in any hostile environment, if he's got the team around him. Stay the course. It's worked before, and it'll work again.
If Eli is going to be the starter next year  
BigBlueCane : 2/9/2019 6:24 pm : link
then they're not drafting a QB in the first round. Gettleman will take a Lineman b/c that's his are of expertise.
LOL  
Rflairr : 2/9/2019 6:37 pm : link
Team is run by idiots
RE: We don't need the cap space.  
bw in dc : 2/9/2019 6:50 pm : link
In comment 14291818 mittenedman said:
Quote:
People, myself included, want to build through the draft. The cap has gone up and the QB costing $23.2M isn't destroying anything if, again, you want to build through the draft.

Going on Snyder-like free agent spending isn't a good idea even if it looks good in March and Madden. Giants should stay the course, get a "choice" free agent of 2 and another strong draft. Do just as they say: continue to address the OL, add talent to the D.

I see a lot of "Giants stuck in their old ways". Not buying it. Their old ways work. Great run game, play action to receivers who know what they're doing and a strong D = contender. There is no stopping it and Eli has shown he can go all the way, in any hostile environment, if he's got the team around him. Stay the course. It's worked before, and it'll work again.


Well, if we donít need the cap space and Eli has all this gas left in the tank, why not pay him another $90M / 3 yrs?

May as well lock up this still great player who is more mobile than ever, a stronger arm than ever, and stands taller and more poised than ever in the pocket.

Right?
If true, which I believe it is.  
Default : 2/9/2019 7:09 pm : link
Beckham should hold out for a trade.
He's never going to see playoff action again with this shitshow of an organization.
Go Terps, bw  
fkap : 2/9/2019 7:28 pm : link
so who is your choice for QB, and what do you think it will take to get him?

If I recall correctly, bw has espoused taking a second tier QB in round 2 (possibly trading to get back into low round 1).

I don't remember Go Terps advocating any alternative. Most just yells to get rid of Eli, get rid of Eli, get rid of Eli.

Is there any particular QB either of you want to draft? or is it anyone but Eli?
RE: Go Terps, bw  
Go Terps : 2/9/2019 7:38 pm : link
In comment 14291841 fkap said:
Quote:
so who is your choice for QB, and what do you think it will take to get him?

If I recall correctly, bw has espoused taking a second tier QB in round 2 (possibly trading to get back into low round 1).

I don't remember Go Terps advocating any alternative. Most just yells to get rid of Eli, get rid of Eli, get rid of Eli.

Is there any particular QB either of you want to draft? or is it anyone but Eli?


I've suggested an alternative several times. The way I see it, we have the viable options after cutting Eli:

1. Enter the season with Lauletta as the starter and Tanney the backup

2. Draft a QB and let him compete with Lauletta for the starting job

3. Trade for an inexpensive backup from someone else's roster. Names of the top of my head include Kyle Sloter, Jacoby Brissett, Mason Rudolph, Josh Dobbs, Nick Mullens, and Jeff Driskell.

Each of those is a viable, realistic alternative and preferable to overpaying Eli (or Files or Flacco).
I don't think having Eli in the locker room at 23 million  
xman : 2/9/2019 7:38 pm : link
or whatever exorbitant price is healthy for the team with his production. Imagine what the other players think making less then a 10th of that .

Take our lumps now. We will not be any worse in fact we will likely get better quicker

RE: RE: We don't need the cap space.  
WillVAB : 2/9/2019 7:44 pm : link
In comment 14291830 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 14291818 mittenedman said:


Quote:


People, myself included, want to build through the draft. The cap has gone up and the QB costing $23.2M isn't destroying anything if, again, you want to build through the draft.

Going on Snyder-like free agent spending isn't a good idea even if it looks good in March and Madden. Giants should stay the course, get a "choice" free agent of 2 and another strong draft. Do just as they say: continue to address the OL, add talent to the D.

I see a lot of "Giants stuck in their old ways". Not buying it. Their old ways work. Great run game, play action to receivers who know what they're doing and a strong D = contender. There is no stopping it and Eli has shown he can go all the way, in any hostile environment, if he's got the team around him. Stay the course. It's worked before, and it'll work again.



Well, if we donít need the cap space and Eli has all this gas left in the tank, why not pay him another $90M / 3 yrs?

May as well lock up this still great player who is more mobile than ever, a stronger arm than ever, and stands taller and more poised than ever in the pocket.

Right?


Idiotic argument.

Brady just won the SB and is entering the final year of his deal just like Eli. Why arenít the Pats extending him? Are the Pats dumb? Does it mean they are locked into drafting his replacement? Does it mean they have to draft his replacement? Does it mean Brady sucks now? No.

When a QB gets to this stage of his career itís really in the best interest of the organization to take it year by year until youíre certain about the replacement.

RE: RE: Go Terps, bw  
WillVAB : 2/9/2019 7:48 pm : link
In comment 14291845 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 14291841 fkap said:


Quote:


so who is your choice for QB, and what do you think it will take to get him?

If I recall correctly, bw has espoused taking a second tier QB in round 2 (possibly trading to get back into low round 1).

I don't remember Go Terps advocating any alternative. Most just yells to get rid of Eli, get rid of Eli, get rid of Eli.

Is there any particular QB either of you want to draft? or is it anyone but Eli?



I've suggested an alternative several times. The way I see it, we have the viable options after cutting Eli:

1. Enter the season with Lauletta as the starter and Tanney the backup

2. Draft a QB and let him compete with Lauletta for the starting job

3. Trade for an inexpensive backup from someone else's roster. Names of the top of my head include Kyle Sloter, Jacoby Brissett, Mason Rudolph, Josh Dobbs, Nick Mullens, and Jeff Driskell.

Each of those is a viable, realistic alternative and preferable to overpaying Eli (or Files or Flacco).


None of those options are ďviableĒ except option 2, which would represent reaching for a QB in a weak class and losing out on the opportunity to draft a better prospect in subsequent years.
Go Terps  
fkap : 2/9/2019 7:49 pm : link
now that you say it, I do recall you listing such options. My apologies.

No real prospects (except maybe a draft pick this year). just a hope that someone is able to step up.

It would be a dream scenario if Lauletta is the man, or if there's some sleeper out there that a team is willing to trade us (I know Dave-Te was creaming his pants over Sloter). If such were the case, I'd be ecstatic. I don't know as it's realistic to plan on, though.
.  
arcarsenal : 2/9/2019 7:50 pm : link
Entering the season with Kyle Lauletta as the starting QB is not a viable option. I can't believe this is even being mentioned.
Entering the season with Eli at that cost is equally not viable  
Go Terps : 2/9/2019 7:55 pm : link
It's not only not viable, it's idiotic if we can open up $17M of cap space just by letting him go.

The one thing Shurmur supposedly does well is work with quarterbacks. Why not use that to gain a roster building advantage?
RE: .  
BigBlueShock : 2/9/2019 7:56 pm : link
In comment 14291856 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
Entering the season with Kyle Lauletta as the starting QB is not a viable option. I can't believe this is even being mentioned.

It is when the poster admittedly wants the Giants to go 0-16 so that Gettleman and Shurmer lose their jobs...
I don't think Lauletta  
fkap : 2/9/2019 7:57 pm : link
can be ruled out. We haven't seen more than a limited bit in the NFL. Granted, it didn't look good, but that doesn't automatically mean he won't be a viable option.

The problem is that we don't have much evidence that he can be an option. At this point, he represents an anybody but Eli option.

RE: I don't think having Eli in the locker room at 23 million  
PetesHereNow : 2/9/2019 8:01 pm : link
In comment 14291846 xman said:
Quote:
or whatever exorbitant price is healthy for the team with his production. Imagine what the other players think making less then a 10th of that .

Take our lumps now. We will not be any worse in fact we will likely get better quicker


Yeah Curtis Riley, Chad Wheeler, and Spencer Pulley would be all pros if it wasnít for that way overpaid asshole making 20+ million a year.

Hereís a novel concept. Give current version of Eli a decent line and a defense that can make a stop in the 4th quarter, and maybe things are improved. Last off-season was a good draft. Letís have another one and hit on a few FAís so that when we do get the next Giants quarterback, he can succeed without the weight of the world on his shoulders.

The whole team matters. Old guys like Brady, Brees, Ben, and Rivers donít have their fan bases clamoring for their replacements. Why? Theyíre old and make a lot of money too. But, the teams around them are good enough and they continue to achieve and add to their HOF reputations.

Whereas, our Eli, he gets surrounded by stooges for about 7 years of bad drafts and our fan base has members like you in it who ignore basic obvious facts about the sport and question what the locker room thinks of him when about everyone on the current team has said heís their leader.
.  
arcarsenal : 2/9/2019 8:03 pm : link
Eli is a known commodity. Major, major difference. Not only is going into 2019 with Eli viable, but if we don't take a QB in the first round, it is all but guaranteed.

Shurmur being good with QB's doesn't mean he can turn anyone into an NFL-caliber player.

The Giants won't even entertain a plan that entails going into the year with a 4th round QB who played for the Richmond Spiders, took about 5 snaps in a game this year, is an entirely unknown quantity, and Alex Tanney as their options.

Imagine trying to sell that to fans... hah.

Will never happen. Not even worth discussing. Doing that basically says you are comfortable hinging your entire season on a QB situation almost certain to fail.

If Lauletta just completely sucks, there's no season. And that's the most likely scenario. It's a very poor strategy and one that I'm fairly sure won't ever be employed.

Teams don't go into a season that naked at the QB position. I can't think of any team that has gone into a season recently with a strategy like that.

For a guy who keeps mocking everyone for clinging to "hopefully's," you'd be employing a MAJOR one at the most important position on the field.

Nothing would be more hopeful and wishful than handing Kyle Lauletta the starting job without him ever even earning it and just crossing our fingers and hoping it works.

Will never happen.
...  
christian : 2/9/2019 8:06 pm : link
You guys almost got me! For a minute I thought some of you were serious about not needing cap space.

I mean shit -- there's a draft -- and you know all those 4th and 5th round picks are going to really round out all the talent and depth that's just dripping off this team.

Very, very well played guys.
RE: RE: I don't think having Eli in the locker room at 23 million  
Zeke's Alibi : 2/9/2019 8:06 pm : link
In comment 14291865 PetesHereNow said:
Quote:
In comment 14291846 xman said:


Quote:


or whatever exorbitant price is healthy for the team with his production. Imagine what the other players think making less then a 10th of that .

Take our lumps now. We will not be any worse in fact we will likely get better quicker




Yeah Curtis Riley, Chad Wheeler, and Spencer Pulley would be all pros if it wasnít for that way overpaid asshole making 20+ million a year.

Hereís a novel concept. Give current version of Eli a decent line and a defense that can make a stop in the 4th quarter, and maybe things are improved. Last off-season was a good draft. Letís have another one and hit on a few FAís so that when we do get the next Giants quarterback, he can succeed without the weight of the world on his shoulders.

The whole team matters. Old guys like Brady, Brees, Ben, and Rivers donít have their fan bases clamoring for their replacements. Why? Theyíre old and make a lot of money too. But, the teams around them are good enough and they continue to achieve and add to their HOF reputations.

Whereas, our Eli, he gets surrounded by stooges for about 7 years of bad drafts and our fan base has members like you in it who ignore basic obvious facts about the sport and question what the locker room thinks of him when about everyone on the current team has said heís their leader.


Those QB's you listed are currently better than Eli save Ben right now (whose subpar play will be exposed next year without Brown and Bell) and I think Steelers fans will be looking hard on Ben next year with a major dip in his statline.
.  
arcarsenal : 2/9/2019 8:07 pm : link
The 2019 Giants QB is going to be either Eli Manning, or someone from this rookie class.

I'm not a fan of the whole stating opinion as fact thing, but I am comfortable doing it here. Lauletta/Tanney will not be a consideration for the 2019 season. You can quote me on that.
Eli is indeed a known commodity  
Go Terps : 2/9/2019 8:08 pm : link
Including to every defense in the league. You think if we cut him he's getting offered $20M by a well run team?

I wouldn't give Lauletta the job going he'd play well. I'd give him the job knowing we have the best timing back in the league and another $17M to help make his life easier.
RE: .  
Go Terps : 2/9/2019 8:09 pm : link
In comment 14291869 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
The 2019 Giants QB is going to be either Eli Manning, or someone from this rookie class.

I'm not a fan of the whole stating opinion as fact thing, but I am comfortable doing it here. Lauletta/Tanney will not be a consideration for the 2019 season. You can quote me on that.


Yeah, no shit. It's obviously going to be Eli.
RE: RE: .  
arcarsenal : 2/9/2019 8:11 pm : link
In comment 14291874 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 14291869 arcarsenal said:


Quote:


The 2019 Giants QB is going to be either Eli Manning, or someone from this rookie class.

I'm not a fan of the whole stating opinion as fact thing, but I am comfortable doing it here. Lauletta/Tanney will not be a consideration for the 2019 season. You can quote me on that.



Yeah, no shit. It's obviously going to be Eli.


So why are you wasting your time with these asinine suggestions? They're off the wall and not ever going to happen.

Just to show that you think way differently than everyone else?
RE: Eli is indeed a known commodity  
Bill L : 2/9/2019 8:12 pm : link
In comment 14291872 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Including to every defense in the league. You think if we cut him he's getting offered $20M by a well run team?

I wouldn't give Lauletta the job going he'd play well. I'd give him the job knowing we have the best timing back in the league and another $17M to help make his life easier.

Manning nb is going to be better than KL. You know that. So, it comes down to whether or not that 17m hamstrings them. There is no indication that it will.
RE: Go Terps, bw  
bw in dc : 2/9/2019 8:17 pm : link
In comment 14291841 fkap said:
Quote:
so who is your choice for QB, and what do you think it will take to get him?

If I recall correctly, bw has espoused taking a second tier QB in round 2 (possibly trading to get back into low round 1).

I don't remember Go Terps advocating any alternative. Most just yells to get rid of Eli, get rid of Eli, get rid of Eli.

Is there any particular QB either of you want to draft? or is it anyone but Eli?


Iíve suggested a combination of these:

A. Trade for Driskell, who filled in very well for Dalton. He moves very well and has an excellent arm.

B. Definitely draft a QB this year. I have a hard time supporting anyone at #6. So Iíd target someone in round 2 or 3. Or grab someone late in the first on a trade up. I mostly like Lock, Grier, Stidham and Finley is growing on me. Murray is an extraordinary college talent. I just donít trust that size. But I wouldnít be surprised either if he becomes a star.

C. Keep or cut Lauletta.

So A or B must occur. Then...

If we donít do A, get C ready to start. And fast track B.

If we get A, also do B, and cut C.

RE: Eli is indeed a known commodity  
Zeke's Alibi : 2/9/2019 8:17 pm : link
In comment 14291872 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Including to every defense in the league. You think if we cut him he's getting offered $20M by a well run team?

I wouldn't give Lauletta the job going he'd play well. I'd give him the job knowing we have the best timing back in the league and another $17M to help make his life easier.


I've been saying this for a while. What would Eli's salary be and who is signing him if we don't pay the 17 million. There is really no market for his services as the teams that would sign him are really strung by the salary cap. Even if a team had room is anyone paying him more than 15 million?
RE: RE: RE: I don't think having Eli in the locker room at 23 million  
PetesHereNow : 2/9/2019 8:18 pm : link
In comment 14291868 Zeke's Alibi said:
Quote:
In comment 14291865 PetesHereNow said:


Quote:


In comment 14291846 xman said:


Quote:


or whatever exorbitant price is healthy for the team with his production. Imagine what the other players think making less then a 10th of that .

Take our lumps now. We will not be any worse in fact we will likely get better quicker




Yeah Curtis Riley, Chad Wheeler, and Spencer Pulley would be all pros if it wasnít for that way overpaid asshole making 20+ million a year.

Hereís a novel concept. Give current version of Eli a decent line and a defense that can make a stop in the 4th quarter, and maybe things are improved. Last off-season was a good draft. Letís have another one and hit on a few FAís so that when we do get the next Giants quarterback, he can succeed without the weight of the world on his shoulders.

The whole team matters. Old guys like Brady, Brees, Ben, and Rivers donít have their fan bases clamoring for their replacements. Why? Theyíre old and make a lot of money too. But, the teams around them are good enough and they continue to achieve and add to their HOF reputations.

Whereas, our Eli, he gets surrounded by stooges for about 7 years of bad drafts and our fan base has members like you in it who ignore basic obvious facts about the sport and question what the locker room thinks of him when about everyone on the current team has said heís their leader.



Those QB's you listed are currently better than Eli save Ben right now (whose subpar play will be exposed next year without Brown and Bell) and I think Steelers fans will be looking hard on Ben next year with a major dip in his statline.


They are better than Eli, sure. But can you honestly tell me that you take any of those guys off their teams and put them in Eliís spot, the 2018 Giants roster succeeds?
Of course not....this roster needs work  
Zeke's Alibi : 2/9/2019 8:22 pm : link
outside of Brady I don't think any of them makes it a playoff team.
RE: RE: RE: .  
Go Terps : 2/9/2019 8:25 pm : link
In comment 14291877 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
In comment 14291874 Go Terps said:


Quote:


In comment 14291869 arcarsenal said:


Quote:


The 2019 Giants QB is going to be either Eli Manning, or someone from this rookie class.

I'm not a fan of the whole stating opinion as fact thing, but I am comfortable doing it here. Lauletta/Tanney will not be a consideration for the 2019 season. You can quote me on that.



Yeah, no shit. It's obviously going to be Eli.



So why are you wasting your time with these asinine suggestions? They're off the wall and not ever going to happen.

Just to show that you think way differently than everyone else?


The options do exist. I'm laying them out there to show how fucked up the front office is, because they seem to think it's Eli or nothing.

A competent front office doesn't pay Eli this much money coming off last season.
.  
arcarsenal : 2/9/2019 8:25 pm : link
Of course no one would pay Eli 20M this year on the open market.

How often do players in their late 30's on long term deals still represent full contractual value in the final year?

I'd wager the percentage is miniscule.

I don't think anyone here actually believes that Eli's performance in 2019 will match up to the cap hit - you usually anticipate that is going to happen when you sign a player to a deal like this. The end of it is something you typically just need to manage.

It's just that we're in a situation now where absorbing the 6M in dead money + signing a veteran tallies up to basically the same amount for what likely will be worse production.

If we draft a QB @ 6 or in the first round via moving up/down/whatever, then Id be fine cutting bait with Eli and trying to get the rookie as much help as possible.

But I'm not cutting Eli to hand Kyle Lauletta the job completely undeservingly and walking into the season essentially naked at the QB position and I'm also not cutting him so that we can turn around and sign some shitty stopgap like Tyrod Taylor.

If Haskins or Murray are on the team? By all means... I can get on board with cutting Eli loose.
RE: RE: RE: RE: .  
arcarsenal : 2/9/2019 8:27 pm : link
In comment 14291890 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 14291877 arcarsenal said:


Quote:


In comment 14291874 Go Terps said:


Quote:


In comment 14291869 arcarsenal said:


Quote:


The 2019 Giants QB is going to be either Eli Manning, or someone from this rookie class.

I'm not a fan of the whole stating opinion as fact thing, but I am comfortable doing it here. Lauletta/Tanney will not be a consideration for the 2019 season. You can quote me on that.



Yeah, no shit. It's obviously going to be Eli.



So why are you wasting your time with these asinine suggestions? They're off the wall and not ever going to happen.

Just to show that you think way differently than everyone else?



The options do exist. I'm laying them out there to show how fucked up the front office is, because they seem to think it's Eli or nothing.

A competent front office doesn't pay Eli this much money coming off last season.


A competent front office also doesn't hinge their season to complete unknowns out of small college programs with essentially zero NFL experience.

Merely suggesting options doesn't mean they're all viable.
If you would cut Eli after drafting Haskins,  
Go Terps : 2/9/2019 8:28 pm : link
then you should be on board with cutting him regardless. What's if we draft Jones? Or Stidham?

Keeping him either makes sense or it doesn't. It doesn't.
...  
christian : 2/9/2019 8:29 pm : link
The notion a stop-gap QB is going to cost anywhere in the neighborhood of what Manning costs this year is funny.

There's much more supply than demand this year. Tannehil, Taylor, Bridgewater, McCown, Fitzpatrick, maybe Bortles and a few others will be available.

You get outside of the top 30 or so salaries (and even excluding rookie deals) -- guys aren't making 17M a year.
An unknown is a better option than the known  
Go Terps : 2/9/2019 8:29 pm : link
Because the known isn't getting us anywhere, and it is more expensive.
RE: RE: RE: We don't need the cap space.  
bw in dc : 2/9/2019 8:30 pm : link
In comment 14291851 WillVAB said:
Quote:


Well, if we donít need the cap space and Eli has all this gas left in the tank, why not pay him another $90M / 3 yrs?

May as well lock up this still great player who is more mobile than ever, a stronger arm than ever, and stands taller and more poised than ever in the pocket.

Right?



Idiotic argument.

Brady just won the SB and is entering the final year of his deal just like Eli. Why arenít the Pats extending him? Are the Pats dumb? Does it mean they are locked into drafting his replacement? Does it mean they have to draft his replacement? Does it mean Brady sucks now? No.

When a QB gets to this stage of his career itís really in the best interest of the organization to take it year by year until youíre certain about the replacement.


With all due respect, comparing Eli to Brady is not your strongest move.

Eli exhibits considerably more signs of his skills eroding than Brady.

Brady is better at 42 than Eli ever was. Heíll be better at 50 than Eli ever was. And the Pats will extend him.

Furthermore, the Pats, well BB, had a succession plan. He tutored JG and had him prime to go. Kraft pulled the owner card, likely via. Brady campaign behind the scenes, and forced the JG trade.
.  
arcarsenal : 2/9/2019 8:36 pm : link
It's not a one-size-fits-all thing. There are scenarios where cutting him makes sense, and scenarios where it does not.

If we take another developmental QB, then no, I'm not necessarily going to cut him. I'm tired of taking QB's who aren't near the top of their class - if we're taking a QB, take Haskins or Murray and cut the crap. No more Ryan Nassib's, Davis Webb's, and Kyle Lauletta's. Those are lottery tickets with substantially low odds.

If you take a guy in the 1st round, you intend on him being your starting QB in the very near future. Haskins or Murray should be able to play right away if you draft them. They don't necessarily need to, but they should be able to. So, I'm fine cutting Eli if we draft one of them.

If it's Jones, I'm not going to be thrilled, but I'm guessing he'd be drafted within the first 2 rounds with full intention of him being the heir apparent.

Regardless - if it's a rookie they're drafting this year, so be it. But I wouldn't be on board with any plan that included handing Lauletta the job based on nothing other than cap space.
RE: ...  
arcarsenal : 2/9/2019 8:37 pm : link
In comment 14291897 christian said:
Quote:
The notion a stop-gap QB is going to cost anywhere in the neighborhood of what Manning costs this year is funny.

There's much more supply than demand this year. Tannehil, Taylor, Bridgewater, McCown, Fitzpatrick, maybe Bortles and a few others will be available.

You get outside of the top 30 or so salaries (and even excluding rookie deals) -- guys aren't making 17M a year.


Signing any of those QB's would be a complete waste of money.
RE: An unknown is a better option than the known  
arcarsenal : 2/9/2019 8:40 pm : link
In comment 14291898 Go Terps said:
Quote:
Because the known isn't getting us anywhere, and it is more expensive.


So, you don't want to hear anyone talk about hopefully's, have been clamoring for a "plan" for months and months now, but are comfortable with a plan that entails basically just going in totally blind and hitching your wagon to a complete unknown.

Where's the logic here? That's not a plan. That's throwing shit at a wall.
RE: RE: ...  
christian : 2/9/2019 8:41 pm : link
In comment 14291906 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
In comment 14291897 christian said:


Quote:


The notion a stop-gap QB is going to cost anywhere in the neighborhood of what Manning costs this year is funny.

There's much more supply than demand this year. Tannehil, Taylor, Bridgewater, McCown, Fitzpatrick, maybe Bortles and a few others will be available.

You get outside of the top 30 or so salaries (and even excluding rookie deals) -- guys aren't making 17M a year.



Signing any of those QB's would be a complete waste of money.


Kind of like signing Kurt Warner to keep the seat warm was a complete waste of money?
RE: Entering the season with Eli at that cost is equally not viable  
WillVAB : 2/9/2019 8:43 pm : link
In comment 14291860 Go Terps said:
Quote:
It's not only not viable, it's idiotic if we can open up $17M of cap space just by letting him go.

The one thing Shurmur supposedly does well is work with quarterbacks. Why not use that to gain a roster building advantage?


At a minimum, Eli has shown he can win if the roster breaks the right way around him. None of the ďviableĒ options can even say that.

Again, who is this vital piece or pieces the Giants can acquire with the cap space? Cap space for the hell of it means nothing.
RE: RE: RE: ...  
arcarsenal : 2/9/2019 8:46 pm : link
In comment 14291914 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 14291906 arcarsenal said:


Quote:


In comment 14291897 christian said:


Quote:


The notion a stop-gap QB is going to cost anywhere in the neighborhood of what Manning costs this year is funny.

There's much more supply than demand this year. Tannehil, Taylor, Bridgewater, McCown, Fitzpatrick, maybe Bortles and a few others will be available.

You get outside of the top 30 or so salaries (and even excluding rookie deals) -- guys aren't making 17M a year.



Signing any of those QB's would be a complete waste of money.



Kind of like signing Kurt Warner to keep the seat warm was a complete waste of money?


Awful comparison. Kurt Warner was not only a Super Bowl champion/MVP, but he was still actually a pretty good QB.

He had some very good years in Arizona after he left here and was still a starting caliber NFL QB. They went to a Super Bowl with him, if you recall.

Tyrod Taylor? Blake Bortles?

How old is Josh McCown now? 41?

Cmon. This isn't even close to a comparison.
RE: RE: RE: RE: We don't need the cap space.  
WillVAB : 2/9/2019 8:57 pm : link
In comment 14291899 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 14291851 WillVAB said:


Quote:




Well, if we donít need the cap space and Eli has all this gas left in the tank, why not pay him another $90M / 3 yrs?

May as well lock up this still great player who is more mobile than ever, a stronger arm than ever, and stands taller and more poised than ever in the pocket.

Right?



Idiotic argument.

Brady just won the SB and is entering the final year of his deal just like Eli. Why arenít the Pats extending him? Are the Pats dumb? Does it mean they are locked into drafting his replacement? Does it mean they have to draft his replacement? Does it mean Brady sucks now? No.

When a QB gets to this stage of his career itís really in the best interest of the organization to take it year by year until youíre certain about the replacement.




With all due respect, comparing Eli to Brady is not your strongest move.

Eli exhibits considerably more signs of his skills eroding than Brady.

Brady is better at 42 than Eli ever was. Heíll be better at 50 than Eli ever was. And the Pats will extend him.

Furthermore, the Pats, well BB, had a succession plan. He tutored JG and had him prime to go. Kraft pulled the owner card, likely via. Brady campaign behind the scenes, and forced the JG trade.


And yet as of now Brady is entering the Ď19 season on the last year of his deal.

Your QB options are trash. When was the last time a trade for a QB worked out? No one in the FA market is a lock to be an upgrade over Eli, and none of them will be cheap. Look at Tyrodís Contract with the Browns.

The play for Gettleman is to use this off-season to continue to rebuild the core of the team that Reese allowed to rot. Find some pieces in FA for the OL/front 7 on defense. Draft to the strength of the draft and find an ER or two and OL help. Let the other teams make a spaz decision at QB and wait until you find the QB you actually have a consensus on as the future.
RE: RE: An unknown is a better option than the known  
Go Terps : 2/9/2019 9:23 pm : link
In comment 14291912 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
In comment 14291898 Go Terps said:


Quote:


Because the known isn't getting us anywhere, and it is more expensive.



So, you don't want to hear anyone talk about hopefully's, have been clamoring for a "plan" for months and months now, but are comfortable with a plan that entails basically just going in totally blind and hitching your wagon to a complete unknown.

Where's the logic here? That's not a plan. That's throwing shit at a wall.


It is a plan. It's going in a different direction at quarterback, which is sorely needed. I outlined three options within that plan.

What isn't a plan is what actually being done. That is just coasting to another losing season and putting this issue off another year.

I'd agree that going with Lauletta is the weakest of the three options, but it's still a better option than what the Giants are actually doing.
WillVAB...  
bw in dc : 2/9/2019 9:25 pm : link
I only proposed moving for Driskell. Weíre not talking a huge investment here.

And at least his game fits the modern game. Good arm, heís mobile and heís 25. He may not be the long term answer, but the investment for him is a helluva lot cheaper than still riding a 38 year old horse that can barely move.

Look, I know the reality of this franchise. Eli will likely be extended, and eat up 13-15% of valuable cap dollars that can be better invested elsewhere, and weíll win anywhere from 6 to 9 games. And 365 days from know, there still wonít be a real succession plan, and the same pro and con Eli arguments will exist.

Meanwhile, what could have been - Mahomes, Darnold, Rosen, whomever, will be showcasing their skills and reminding us what could have been...

But, hey. Go Barkley! Right?
RE: RE: RE: An unknown is a better option than the known  
Bill L : 2/9/2019 9:34 pm : link
In comment 14291969 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 14291912 arcarsenal said:


Quote:


In comment 14291898 Go Terps said:


Quote:


Because the known isn't getting us anywhere, and it is more expensive.



So, you don't want to hear anyone talk about hopefully's, have been clamoring for a "plan" for months and months now, but are comfortable with a plan that entails basically just going in totally blind and hitching your wagon to a complete unknown.

Where's the logic here? That's not a plan. That's throwing shit at a wall.



It is a plan. It's going in a different direction at quarterback, which is sorely needed. I outlined three options within that plan.

What isn't a plan is what actually being done. That is just coasting to another losing season and putting this issue off another year.

I'd agree that going with Lauletta is the weakest of the three options, but it's still a better option than what the Giants are actually doing.

The problem is, itís going in a different direction like that chicken once itís neck has been wrung. Itís brownian, which is really no direction at all.
---  
Peppers : 2/9/2019 10:00 pm : link
That's all speculation from Silva.

Right now only thing of mere substance is that a few people around think ultimately a portion of Eli's contract will be turned into incentives. That Manning's value if he's released is likely no more than 15 million with no guarantee he's the starter. If Jacksonville wasn't in the QB hunt Eli's opportunities would be bleak. He has little bargaining power if he wants to finish his career with NYG. Based on that and assuming they want him back, I think its reasonable to believe both sides will work out an amicable agreement. If not, he'll land in Jacksonville for obvious reasons.

RE: RE: Go Terps, bw  
djm : 2/9/2019 10:09 pm : link
In comment 14291845 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 14291841 fkap said:


Quote:


so who is your choice for QB, and what do you think it will take to get him?

If I recall correctly, bw has espoused taking a second tier QB in round 2 (possibly trading to get back into low round 1).

I don't remember Go Terps advocating any alternative. Most just yells to get rid of Eli, get rid of Eli, get rid of Eli.

Is there any particular QB either of you want to draft? or is it anyone but Eli?



I've suggested an alternative several times. The way I see it, we have the viable options after cutting Eli:

1. Enter the season with Lauletta as the starter and Tanney the backup

2. Draft a QB and let him compete with Lauletta for the starting job

3. Trade for an inexpensive backup from someone else's roster. Names of the top of my head include Kyle Sloter, Jacoby Brissett, Mason Rudolph, Josh Dobbs, Nick Mullens, and Jeff Driskell.

Each of those is a viable, realistic alternative and preferable to overpaying Eli (or Files or Flacco).


Every single one of these options comes with risk, some come with limited upside and most arenít even certain to be a viable option. I donít hate any of them with the first one being the exception.

So when the giants OL is a little better and the D has 3 much needed additions playing and itís November of 2019, and the offense STILL struggles because we have jeff fucking driskell at qb, will you be happy that the qb is making peanuts, but struggling because heís jeff fucking driskell who has never played in shurmurs offense, I think, and has never been faced with nfl starting pressure......

Or we could stay with the known vet qb in Eli, who knows this offense after taking his lumps first half 2018 and flourished second half last year IN THIS SAME exact offense.

And of course, draft the qb this April if heís there. Why on earth this is considered so terrible and even taboo by giants fans Iíll never know.

Thereís a distinct possibility that the giants will be better next season around the qb. The talent on D and OL will be upgraded. The qb will be in a position to succeed. This moment right here reminds me of when the giants fired coughlin and let mcadoo coach a team that had more talent than any giants team since 2008. That 2016 team was loaded. They rebuild in 14 and 15, fight like hell in 15 when that team really had no business winning, then spend all the money on defense and fire coughlin. Fans were thrilled.

You finally have a well rounded offense here assuming we even add just one more legit starter on the OL and NOW we just have to cut Eli and sign some backup qb from another team? Now? With Eli sitting on his final year? That makes no sense to me. If youíre gonna replace Eli it better be with a young talented up n comer not some potential journeymen or backup who looks good in August. Whatís the point...
Itís because ďcut EliĒ is the objective unto itself,  
Bill L : 2/9/2019 10:13 pm : link
Thereís Giants that plays into the calculus at all.
RE: WillVAB...  
WillVAB : 2/9/2019 10:21 pm : link
In comment 14291975 bw in dc said:
Quote:
I only proposed moving for Driskell. Weíre not talking a huge investment here.

And at least his game fits the modern game. Good arm, heís mobile and heís 25. He may not be the long term answer, but the investment for him is a helluva lot cheaper than still riding a 38 year old horse that can barely move.

Look, I know the reality of this franchise. Eli will likely be extended, and eat up 13-15% of valuable cap dollars that can be better invested elsewhere, and weíll win anywhere from 6 to 9 games. And 365 days from know, there still wonít be a real succession plan, and the same pro and con Eli arguments will exist.

Meanwhile, what could have been - Mahomes, Darnold, Rosen, whomever, will be showcasing their skills and reminding us what could have been...

But, hey. Go Barkley! Right?


The goal should be to make a move at QB thatís in the best interest of the franchise long term. Not change for the sake of change or cap space. Cap space that no one here earmarked for any notable targets in FA, and not necessary to retain anyone they want to keep.

The Giants will have an opportunity to get a guy they really want at the position in the not so distant future. Thereís no need to force the issue and lose out on that opportunity because the franchise is invested in an inferior player.
RE: Itís because ďcut EliĒ is the objective unto itself,  
Go Terps : 2/9/2019 10:24 pm : link
In comment 14292051 Bill L said:
Quote:
Thereís Giants that plays into the calculus at all.


That is absolutely not the case.
RE: RE: Itís because ďcut EliĒ is the objective unto itself,  
Bill L : 2/9/2019 10:26 pm : link
In comment 14292063 Go Terps said:
Quote:
In comment 14292051 Bill L said:


Quote:


Thereís Giants that plays into the calculus at all.



That is absolutely not the case.

It absolutely is. As youíve laid up numerous times. Incessantly even.
RE: WillVAB...  
Ssanders9816 : 2/9/2019 10:27 pm : link
In comment 14291975 bw in dc said:
Quote:
I only proposed moving for Driskell. Weíre not talking a huge investment here.

And at least his game fits the modern game. Good arm, heís mobile and heís 25. He may not be the long term answer, but the investment for him is a helluva lot cheaper than still riding a 38 year old horse that can barely move.

Look, I know the reality of this franchise. Eli will likely be extended, and eat up 13-15% of valuable cap dollars that can be better invested elsewhere, and weíll win anywhere from 6 to 9 games. And 365 days from know, there still wonít be a real succession plan, and the same pro and con Eli arguments will exist.

Meanwhile, what could have been - Mahomes, Darnold, Rosen, whomever, will be showcasing their skills and reminding us what could have been...

But, hey. Go Barkley! Right?


Yeah I canít believe we didnít draft Mahomes when we had the chance!!! Who did we take instead? Please remind me. Oh and Rosen and Darnold are complete trash compared to Barkley.
I it was your penultimate post which said  
Bill L : 2/9/2019 10:27 pm : link
The purpose was solely to go ina a(ny) different direction.
...  
christian : 2/9/2019 11:03 pm : link
I think many of you extremely overrate the talent on this team, as did many last year.

The Giants *might* improve vastly. That could happen. As it stands basically every unit on offense outside of RB needs improvement. Every unit, literally every unit on defense needs improvement.

The Giants team that had that little streak of games, has to replace or improve a lot of players. They won't have 4 top 70 picks and they won't have nearly as much cap space to spend.

RE: ...  
WillVAB : 2/9/2019 11:23 pm : link
In comment 14292094 christian said:
Quote:
I think many of you extremely overrate the talent on this team, as did many last year.

The Giants *might* improve vastly. That could happen. As it stands basically every unit on offense outside of RB needs improvement. Every unit, literally every unit on defense needs improvement.

The Giants team that had that little streak of games, has to replace or improve a lot of players. They won't have 4 top 70 picks and they won't have nearly as much cap space to spend.


The Giants had 23 mil in space this time last year and they have at least 27 mil now.
Hope this isn't true..  
prdave73 : 2/10/2019 12:19 am : link
don't get me wrong im all for keeping Eli for another year, I'm just not good with paying him that much. This is why this Organization is in the situation they are in now. They are just to nice. I'm sorry but I would have him take a paycut to help the team out?!That's just my opinion..
RE: RE: WillVAB...  
bw in dc : 2/10/2019 1:25 am : link
In comment 14292061 WillVAB said:
Quote:


The goal should be to make a move at QB thatís in the best interest of the franchise long term. Not change for the sake of change or cap space. Cap space that no one here earmarked for any notable targets in FA, and not necessary to retain anyone they want to keep.

The Giants will have an opportunity to get a guy they really want at the position in the not so distant future. Thereís no need to force the issue and lose out on that opportunity because the franchise is invested in an inferior player.


Back to the Driskell idea.

Driskellís cap hit is $720K for 2019. Basically, heís $22M+ cheaper than Eli. Heís mobile and athletic. A guy with some decent NFL experience who could do traditional QB duties, RPOs, and designs out of the pocket.

In other words, probably a better compliment to Barkley.

Iím not at all suggesting anything great with Driskell. But in all likelihood, the difference in win totals isnít that great between Eli and him. So in each case, weíre likely going nowhere.

So whatís better for the team? Weíre losing with both (just playing the odds). However, weíre saving $22M in one case; and in the other case, itís a chance to see a slower, older Eli play again?

+$22M in cap or walking down memory lane...

I think the answer is fairly clear.


RE: RE: RE: WillVAB...  
WillVAB : 2/10/2019 1:54 am : link
In comment 14292130 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 14292061 WillVAB said:


Quote:




The goal should be to make a move at QB thatís in the best interest of the franchise long term. Not change for the sake of change or cap space. Cap space that no one here earmarked for any notable targets in FA, and not necessary to retain anyone they want to keep.

The Giants will have an opportunity to get a guy they really want at the position in the not so distant future. Thereís no need to force the issue and lose out on that opportunity because the franchise is invested in an inferior player.



Back to the Driskell idea.

Driskellís cap hit is $720K for 2019. Basically, heís $22M+ cheaper than Eli. Heís mobile and athletic. A guy with some decent NFL experience who could do traditional QB duties, RPOs, and designs out of the pocket.

In other words, probably a better compliment to Barkley.

Iím not at all suggesting anything great with Driskell. But in all likelihood, the difference in win totals isnít that great between Eli and him. So in each case, weíre likely going nowhere.

So whatís better for the team? Weíre losing with both (just playing the odds). However, weíre saving $22M in one case; and in the other case, itís a chance to see a slower, older Eli play again?

+$22M in cap or walking down memory lane...

I think the answer is fairly clear.



1. The Giants would have to trade assets to acquire him, assuming the Bengals are even willing to part ways.

2. Heís entering the last year of his rookie deal. So toss out your economics argument.

3. If the Giants did trade for him, it would be because they view him as a long term solution at QB. That means the Giants are invested in him for a minimum of 3 years, probably more, and pass on every potential franchise QB in the draft during that time span.

What youíre proposing is a tried and failed model thatís completely short sighted. At best the Giants become the Miami Dolphins for the next 10 years.
agree with Bill L and WillVAB  
fkap : 2/10/2019 6:38 am : link
the argument from a few (a VERY, VERY vocal few) is to shout ANYONE BUT ELI. That's the objective - to dump Eli. Then it's grasping at straws for a replacement.

Any moving away from Eli should be a movement toward a long term solution, NOT hopscotching around with 'ah, what the hell, try X, maybe he'll be better, anybody but Eli'

the boat has a leak in it, and surely needs upgrading. That doesn't mean we should jump out in the middle of the ocean and cling to any old flotsam.

bw said on another thread that he didn't trust one of the draft options (Haskins?) because the talent around him was so good that he had time in the pocket to relax and make thoughtful decisions. The problem with Eli is that he hasn't had the time to relax. He's shell shocked, and the 'it' factor comes and goes. Work on the OL, give Eli a reliable pocket and time to relax. I think you'll see an Eli who is good enough until the right replacement can be found.
If they think a backup, or a draft pick is the right long term solution, then go for it. But the argument should start with 'we found a good replacement', not centered around 'anybody but Eli'.

$17M in cap space  
slickwilly : 2/10/2019 7:15 am : link
which would inevitably lead to the next criticism of how they paid A money for B talent. So many GM's in waiting here.
Nice strawman there fkap  
LakeGeorgeGiant : 2/10/2019 7:40 am : link
You burned it up real good, but nobody fucking said that.
RE: RE: RE: RE: WillVAB...  
bw in dc : 2/10/2019 8:01 am : link
In comment 14292134 WillVAB said:
Quote:



1. The Giants would have to trade assets to acquire him, assuming the Bengals are even willing to part ways.

2. Heís entering the last year of his rookie deal. So toss out your economics argument.

3. If the Giants did trade for him, it would be because they view him as a long term solution at QB. That means the Giants are invested in him for a minimum of 3 years, probably more, and pass on every potential franchise QB in the draft during that time span.

What youíre proposing is a tried and failed model thatís completely short sighted. At best the Giants become the Miami Dolphins for the next 10 years.


Failed model? The team is failing now with a 38 year old QB at the helm. Basically, weíve been the Dolphins for the last seven years.

What assets to acquire him? A fourth rounder? Itís Jeff Driskell. And yes, Iím assuming a trade could be worked out. So play along.

As far as Iím concerned, Driskell would be a one year rental. The Patriots make similar moves all of the time, trying to acquire potentially undervalued asses.

Driskell has one year left on his contract at $720K. If he works and we hit on it, great. Then we consider something longer. But hereís what youíre missing - Iím trying to free up money NOW from Eliís contract to improve other areas of the team. Thatís material money to invest.

Meanwhile, Iím also drafting a QB from this draft. Preferably early - say, the second round. So Iím not stopping at Driskell. Iím getting younger and more athletic at QB. I want a QB competition right now.

Again, and let me underscore this, with or without Eli this year, we are very, very likely going nowhere. I know the Eli-always-has-excuses crowd think there is another run there, because they see Eli on the same level as Brees or Brady with poorer management, but Iím siding with the football actuarial tables on this one.

So letís get younger, save cap dollars, and get into a QB competition to see the future...

You know what would impress me? Honesty. I wish posters would just what they are really thinking - they really want to see Eli keep playing. Heís an important piece of Giants history, so let him go out on his terms. Trying to camouflage that with this other non-sense that I read - mentor the next QB, heís an oline away from making us a contender, etc - really pushes this organization deeper into a hole.

Letís start digging out of it now.

Honesty?  
Jimmy Googs : 2/10/2019 8:08 am : link
You can't handle the truth!
RE: RE: ...  
christian : 2/10/2019 8:21 am : link
In comment 14292105 WillVAB said:
Quote:
In comment 14292094 christian said:


Quote:


I think many of you extremely overrate the talent on this team, as did many last year.

The Giants *might* improve vastly. That could happen. As it stands basically every unit on offense outside of RB needs improvement. Every unit, literally every unit on defense needs improvement.

The Giants team that had that little streak of games, has to replace or improve a lot of players. They won't have 4 top 70 picks and they won't have nearly as much cap space to spend.




The Giants had 23 mil in space this time last year and they have at least 27 mil now.


Dave Gettleman dished out ~110M in guaranteed money last offseason -- impacting the medium term cap space across a few years, where money is realistically spent.

It's an almost certainty he will not be spending that type of money this offseason.
RE: the Giants have no leverage  
Gatorade Dunk : 2/10/2019 10:19 am : link
In comment 14291595 fkap said:
Quote:
to force a paycut.

If they're going with Eli for the year, it's either give him more money for an extension, or stick with the contract as is.

I'd rather not extend and push dead money on next year.

The question is whether to go with Eli this year, or cut him.

As I've said before, keeping Eli for the last year of his contract does not prevent bringing in FA this year. First year cap hit is typically low, then will be escalating when Eli's hit is coming off the books.

The Giants don't have leverage? 2/3 of his 2019 money is nonguaranteed, and that's assuming they don't use the roster bonus itself as leverage. That's their leverage. It's at least questionable that Eli gets $17MM on the open market, but even if he were to, is he willing to play that game and finish his career with a different team over a couple of million that the Giants would ostensibly be using to fortify the roster around him?

If this is true, I assume that this is exactly what Gettleman was talking about when he said that Eli "took [him] to the low post and won." The conversation about a potential pay cut may have already happened and Eli (or Condon, more likely) already refused.
No, it's not  
HomerJones45 : 2/10/2019 10:38 am : link
Quote:
It's at least questionable that Eli gets $17MM on the open market


I don't know what you guys are thinking. Manning is due $17 million this year. Foles got $20 million. Garappolo $18. Alex Smith $18 Keenum $15. After Keenum, you are talking about guys on rookie deals and backups.

Manning is not overpaid as a vet starting qb. His salary and cap hit do not prevent the Giants from drafting a qb or picking up someone's failed #1 pick like Bridgewater or getting someone else's cut in preseason.
You canít even spell his name right!!! Itís Jeff Driskel  
Ssanders9816 : 2/10/2019 10:39 am : link
And the Giants are not trading for him. Worst idea EVER!!
...  
christian : 2/10/2019 10:43 am : link
The Giants have all of the leverage.

Does Manning want to uproot or be away from his infant child and family? Does he want to learn and potentially struggle as he settles into another system? Does he want to face the criticism from a fanbase and media without the benifit of being a Super Bowl hero to them?

Forget about money -- is Eli Manning willing to play football somewhere else.

I don't think the Giants will or should set out to screw Manning. I'd like to see an extension that turns the guarantees into incentives based on success.

If the Giants have a winning year and Manning plays well -- compensate him and create a path to 2020. If the Giants have a losing year and Manning plays poorly, cut down the cost and call it a career.
RE: RE: RE: RE: We don't need the cap space.  
HomerJones45 : 2/10/2019 10:59 am : link
In comment 14291899 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 14291851 WillVAB said:


Quote:




Well, if we donít need the cap space and Eli has all this gas left in the tank, why not pay him another $90M / 3 yrs?

May as well lock up this still great player who is more mobile than ever, a stronger arm than ever, and stands taller and more poised than ever in the pocket.

Right?



Idiotic argument.

Brady just won the SB and is entering the final year of his deal just like Eli. Why arenít the Pats extending him? Are the Pats dumb? Does it mean they are locked into drafting his replacement? Does it mean they have to draft his replacement? Does it mean Brady sucks now? No.

When a QB gets to this stage of his career itís really in the best interest of the organization to take it year by year until youíre certain about the replacement.




With all due respect, comparing Eli to Brady is not your strongest move.

Eli exhibits considerably more signs of his skills eroding than Brady.

Brady is better at 42 than Eli ever was. Heíll be better at 50 than Eli ever was. And the Pats will extend him.

Furthermore, the Pats, well BB, had a succession plan. He tutored JG and had him prime to go. Kraft pulled the owner card, likely via. Brady campaign behind the scenes, and forced the JG trade.
Bullshit. The Pats have transformed their offense with the line and running backs; Brady got the headlines but the o-line and running game got the Pats the Lombardi- 3rd in rushing attempts, 5th in yardage and 4th in rushing td's on the season. Everyone so fixated on Brady, they didn't look to see what the Pats were actually doing.

Brady threw 2 td passes in the postseason against 3 picks while being sacked 1 time in 3 games- once. The Pats averaged 160 yards a game rushing in 3 playoff games. You don't think Eli could play behind that line?

Little Bill and the FO know their business. With a 43 y/o qb they re-built the line and running backs so as to protect Brady and not have to rely on him.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: We don't need the cap space.  
Zeke's Alibi : 2/10/2019 11:17 am : link
In comment 14292246 HomerJones45 said:
Quote:
In comment 14291899 bw in dc said:


Quote:


In comment 14291851 WillVAB said:


Quote:




Well, if we donít need the cap space and Eli has all this gas left in the tank, why not pay him another $90M / 3 yrs?

May as well lock up this still great player who is more mobile than ever, a stronger arm than ever, and stands taller and more poised than ever in the pocket.

Right?



Idiotic argument.

Brady just won the SB and is entering the final year of his deal just like Eli. Why arenít the Pats extending him? Are the Pats dumb? Does it mean they are locked into drafting his replacement? Does it mean they have to draft his replacement? Does it mean Brady sucks now? No.

When a QB gets to this stage of his career itís really in the best interest of the organization to take it year by year until youíre certain about the replacement.




With all due respect, comparing Eli to Brady is not your strongest move.

Eli exhibits considerably more signs of his skills eroding than Brady.

Brady is better at 42 than Eli ever was. Heíll be better at 50 than Eli ever was. And the Pats will extend him.

Furthermore, the Pats, well BB, had a succession plan. He tutored JG and had him prime to go. Kraft pulled the owner card, likely via. Brady campaign behind the scenes, and forced the JG trade.

Bullshit. The Pats have transformed their offense with the line and running backs; Brady got the headlines but the o-line and running game got the Pats the Lombardi- 3rd in rushing attempts, 5th in yardage and 4th in rushing td's on the season. Everyone so fixated on Brady, they didn't look to see what the Pats were actually doing.

Brady threw 2 td passes in the postseason against 3 picks while being sacked 1 time in 3 games- once. The Pats averaged 160 yards a game rushing in 3 playoff games. You don't think Eli could play behind that line?

Little Bill and the FO know their business. With a 43 y/o qb they re-built the line and running backs so as to protect Brady and not have to rely on him.


I personally don't think Eli could. The offensive line was decent, but a big part of him not taking sacks was two things. They played the Chargers, Chiefs, and Rams. Three defenses whose weakness is against the run with a fullback. The Chargers and Chiefs woefully bad. The game plan was to run, run, and run some more. Brady also gets rid of the ball extremely fast. Not that Eli isn't capable of this, but Eli's accuracy is a far cry from where Brady can operate in the short passing game. Brady made the throws when they needed them and moved the chains. Brady's TD total had the potential to be much higher if they decided to throw the ball into the end zone which they never had to.
I love the Dolphins comparison made in this thread.  
Default : 2/10/2019 11:31 am : link
Overpaid a mediocre injury prone QB and had a severe lack of talent on the team for the past seven seasons.

Also has had better results than the Giants the past seven years.

So instead of trying something new, lets trot out the 38 year old bottom tier QB for one more run.

When the team starts off like shit again and trades away good players for nothing at the trade deadline idiots can call it a rebuilding season again.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: We don't need the cap space.  
bw in dc : 2/10/2019 11:34 am : link
In comment 14292246 HomerJones45 said:
Quote:


Bullshit. The Pats have transformed their offense with the line and running backs; Brady got the headlines but the o-line and running game got the Pats the Lombardi- 3rd in rushing attempts, 5th in yardage and 4th in rushing td's on the season. Everyone so fixated on Brady, they didn't look to see what the Pats were actually doing.

Brady threw 2 td passes in the postseason against 3 picks while being sacked 1 time in 3 games- once. The Pats averaged 160 yards a game rushing in 3 playoff games. You don't think Eli could play behind that line?

Little Bill and the FO know their business. With a 43 y/o qb they re-built the line and running backs so as to protect Brady and not have to rely on him.


Well, this thread isn't about Pats Central v Jints Central. Or Brady v Eli.

But, yes, I think Eli could play behind the Pats oline. Playing and being as productive, however, are two different discussions. It helps that Brady is fearless and has a PhD in pocket skills.

Furthermore, I don't think we have the brainpower or creativity, like the Pats (who really does, right?), to create an optimal situation for Eli. That's why all this talk of keeping him, and continuing to build around him, is a waste of time and money.

For the record, when it mattered most, Brady led the game winning drive in OT in KC converting 3 straight 3rd and tens. Without that, I'm not sure there is trophy #6.
RE: RE: RE: ...  
WillVAB : 2/10/2019 12:04 pm : link
In comment 14292159 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 14292105 WillVAB said:


Quote:


In comment 14292094 christian said:


Quote:


I think many of you extremely overrate the talent on this team, as did many last year.

The Giants *might* improve vastly. That could happen. As it stands basically every unit on offense outside of RB needs improvement. Every unit, literally every unit on defense needs improvement.

The Giants team that had that little streak of games, has to replace or improve a lot of players. They won't have 4 top 70 picks and they won't have nearly as much cap space to spend.




The Giants had 23 mil in space this time last year and they have at least 27 mil now.



Dave Gettleman dished out ~110M in guaranteed money last offseason -- impacting the medium term cap space across a few years, where money is realistically spent.

It's an almost certainty he will not be spending that type of money this offseason.


The cap is a non-issue, especially so after he cuts Vernon and Ellison.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: WillVAB...  
WillVAB : 2/10/2019 12:15 pm : link
In comment 14292154 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 14292134 WillVAB said:


Quote:





1. The Giants would have to trade assets to acquire him, assuming the Bengals are even willing to part ways.

2. Heís entering the last year of his rookie deal. So toss out your economics argument.

3. If the Giants did trade for him, it would be because they view him as a long term solution at QB. That means the Giants are invested in him for a minimum of 3 years, probably more, and pass on every potential franchise QB in the draft during that time span.

What youíre proposing is a tried and failed model thatís completely short sighted. At best the Giants become the Miami Dolphins for the next 10 years.



Failed model? The team is failing now with a 38 year old QB at the helm. Basically, weíve been the Dolphins for the last seven years.

What assets to acquire him? A fourth rounder? Itís Jeff Driskell. And yes, Iím assuming a trade could be worked out. So play along.

As far as Iím concerned, Driskell would be a one year rental. The Patriots make similar moves all of the time, trying to acquire potentially undervalued asses.

Driskell has one year left on his contract at $720K. If he works and we hit on it, great. Then we consider something longer. But hereís what youíre missing - Iím trying to free up money NOW from Eliís contract to improve other areas of the team. Thatís material money to invest.

Meanwhile, Iím also drafting a QB from this draft. Preferably early - say, the second round. So Iím not stopping at Driskell. Iím getting younger and more athletic at QB. I want a QB competition right now.

Again, and let me underscore this, with or without Eli this year, we are very, very likely going nowhere. I know the Eli-always-has-excuses crowd think there is another run there, because they see Eli on the same level as Brees or Brady with poorer management, but Iím siding with the football actuarial tables on this one.

So letís get younger, save cap dollars, and get into a QB competition to see the future...

You know what would impress me? Honesty. I wish posters would just what they are really thinking - they really want to see Eli keep playing. Heís an important piece of Giants history, so let him go out on his terms. Trying to camouflage that with this other non-sense that I read - mentor the next QB, heís an oline away from making us a contender, etc - really pushes this organization deeper into a hole.

Letís start digging out of it now.


Great, letís waste a 2 and a 4 on lottery tickets with a close to zero percent chance the Giants will end up appreciably better at the QB position relative to the rest of the league.

And for the 10th time, who exactly are you buying with Eliís money?

And if the Giants are in a position to draft Fromm, Tua, Herbert, etc ó thatís gone. Now youíre committed to the next Tannehill.

Itís a terrible plan. The Giants should be looking for a long term answer that gives them a competitive advantage at the position, not simply treading water.
RE: RE: RE: RE: ...  
christian : 2/10/2019 12:17 pm : link
In comment 14292285 WillVAB said:
Quote:
In comment 14292159 christian said:


Quote:


In comment 14292105 WillVAB said:


Quote:


In comment 14292094 christian said:


Quote:


I think many of you extremely overrate the talent on this team, as did many last year.

The Giants *might* improve vastly. That could happen. As it stands basically every unit on offense outside of RB needs improvement. Every unit, literally every unit on defense needs improvement.

The Giants team that had that little streak of games, has to replace or improve a lot of players. They won't have 4 top 70 picks and they won't have nearly as much cap space to spend.




The Giants had 23 mil in space this time last year and they have at least 27 mil now.



Dave Gettleman dished out ~110M in guaranteed money last offseason -- impacting the medium term cap space across a few years, where money is realistically spent.

It's an almost certainty he will not be spending that type of money this offseason.



The cap is a non-issue, especially so after he cuts Vernon and Ellison.


Hmmmmm ... So adding an additional ~17M via cuts helps the cap situation? It's almost like that's been brought up somewhere.
bw  
HomerJones45 : 2/10/2019 12:19 pm : link
Quote:
Furthermore, I don't think we have the brainpower or creativity, like the Pats (who really does, right?), to create an optimal situation for Eli. That's why all this talk of keeping him, and continuing to build around him, is a waste of time and money.
Agreed about the Pats v. Jints Central.

I think your second sentence is a straw man. No one is saying build around him. The only issue is the stated necessity of cutting him now and not letting him play out the last year of his contract. On that one, I disagree for the reasons previously stated.
We need to do exactly what we did last draft  
PatersonPlank : 2/10/2019 12:29 pm : link
Take the best players we can. We got our RB of the future, our G of the future, and 3 DE/LB's of the future. No we didn't get a QB, but we filled a number of holes. We need to focus on getting great players, not a player who we don't believe in just because their position starts with a "Q".

Eventually we will have a good team with talent everywhere. Barkley was a sure thing, the QB's weren't, so we did the right thing. Eventually we will get a QB too.
RE: We need to do exactly what we did last draft  
christian : 2/10/2019 12:35 pm : link
In comment 14292311 PatersonPlank said:
Quote:
Take the best players we can. We got our RB of the future, our G of the future, and 3 DE/LB's of the future. No we didn't get a QB, but we filled a number of holes. We need to focus on getting great players, not a player who we don't believe in just because their position starts with a "Q".

Eventually we will have a good team with talent everywhere. Barkley was a sure thing, the QB's weren't, so we did the right thing. Eventually we will get a QB too.


Patiently building up a team is the right approach -- but at some point you have to get the QB who's a cornerstone for your run.

I tend to believe a good quarterback is much more the product of the situation than the inverse.

A young, skillsy QB, with the requisite talent can build into a winner in the NFL. Doesn't need to be a top 5 pick as repeatedly shown all over the league.

The Giants themselves are just many players away right now -- and it's going to take this and likely another offseason for the "window" to begin.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: ...  
WillVAB : 2/10/2019 1:09 pm : link
In comment 14292298 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 14292285 WillVAB said:


Quote:


In comment 14292159 christian said:


Quote:


In comment 14292105 WillVAB said:


Quote:


In comment 14292094 christian said:


Quote:


I think many of you extremely overrate the talent on this team, as did many last year.

The Giants *might* improve vastly. That could happen. As it stands basically every unit on offense outside of RB needs improvement. Every unit, literally every unit on defense needs improvement.

The Giants team that had that little streak of games, has to replace or improve a lot of players. They won't have 4 top 70 picks and they won't have nearly as much cap space to spend.




The Giants had 23 mil in space this time last year and they have at least 27 mil now.



Dave Gettleman dished out ~110M in guaranteed money last offseason -- impacting the medium term cap space across a few years, where money is realistically spent.

It's an almost certainty he will not be spending that type of money this offseason.



The cap is a non-issue, especially so after he cuts Vernon and Ellison.



Hmmmmm ... So adding an additional ~17M via cuts helps the cap situation? It's almost like that's been brought up somewhere.


The point is they donít need Eliís money. Vernon is the worst contract on the team, maybe the worst in the league. Vernon and Ellison also have multiple years left on their deals. If thereís a FA interested in coming here and the Giants need space to acquire him, those two contracts are the ones to cut first.

If the Giants had multiple studs up for a new contracts I could see the reasoning behind fretting over Eliís cap hit, but they donít. Anyone they could target in FA is speculative and thereís teams with more space even if the Giants cut Eli.
RE: We need to do exactly what we did last draft  
Jimmy Googs : 2/10/2019 1:26 pm : link
In comment 14292311 PatersonPlank said:
Quote:
Take the best players we can. We got our RB of the future, our G of the future, and 3 DE/LB's of the future. No we didn't get a QB, but we filled a number of holes. We need to focus on getting great players, not a player who we don't believe in just because their position starts with a "Q".

Eventually we will have a good team with talent everywhere. Barkley was a sure thing, the QB's weren't, so we did the right thing. Eventually we will get a QB too.


Agreed that the overall roster comes before any individual need...its the prudent play in building value and longer term stability. However, not all positions are created equal in determining success and the time it takes to reach it. "Eventually" at QB portrays a time-line that is unacceptable though and needs to incorporate a better combination of risk/reward. That doesn't mean forcing poor QB decisions but it certainly requires taking some actions on that front as it isn't going to just show up on our doorstep some day...
.  
fkap : 2/10/2019 1:27 pm : link
"Bullshit. The Pats have transformed their offense with the line and running backs; Brady got the headlines but the o-line and running game got the Pats the Lombardi- 3rd in rushing attempts, 5th in yardage and 4th in rushing td's on the season. Everyone so fixated on Brady, they didn't look to see what the Pats were actually doing.

Brady threw 2 td passes in the postseason against 3 picks while being sacked 1 time in 3 games- once. The Pats averaged 160 yards a game rushing in 3 playoff games. You don't think Eli could play behind that line?"


and yet, when people suggest improving the lines and the running game, they get derided as wasting another year and a top pick going all in on Eli.
RE: If you would cut Eli after drafting Haskins,  
djm : 2/10/2019 1:36 pm : link
In comment 14291896 Go Terps said:
Quote:
then you should be on board with cutting him regardless. What's if we draft Jones? Or Stidham?

Keeping him either makes sense or it doesn't. It doesn't.


How on earth under any and all scenarios does it make no sense to keep Eli if we draft a kid this April? What if the kid isnít ready? What if the team IS ready?

You donít allow for any middle ground thinking. Thatís insane.
Many of you here  
djm : 2/10/2019 1:50 pm : link
Think you have the cap and economic thing all figured out. You donít.

The giants have been flushing this roster for a full calendar year now. Many more high priced vets are slowly if not swiftly being phased out here, and yes that includes Eli. You sure here and talk about cap room and Eliís cap hit and how much space this year vs last year and itís all garbage to me. Itís useless conjecture being delivered as fact. Save it.

DG and Shurmur are flushing out the old and changing the entire dynamic of this roster. You might not see it but itís as clear as day. This isnít an all in on Eli thing. The cap is the least of our concerns. Tons of money is opening up these next two years.
If you draft Haskins there is no way in hell you can cut Eli.  
Zeke's Alibi : 2/10/2019 1:57 pm : link
If you do it before the roster bonus is due you just increased the price if you need to trade up for him or telegraphing teams behind us.

If you cut him after the roster bonus you are saving 12 million and still need to bring in a veteran starter because Haskins is a one year starter. Highly unlikely he'll be ready to be an opening day starter, maybe not even ready at all his rookie year. So let's say you bring in a guy at about 5 million. That's savings of 7 million. Drafting a QB is a franchise changing investment. I think that 7 million is worth the type of knowledge and wisdom Eli can impart on him.
RE: agree with Bill L and WillVAB  
bw in dc : 2/10/2019 2:32 pm : link
In comment 14292143 fkap said:
Quote:


bw said on another thread that he didn't trust one of the draft options (Haskins?) because the talent around him was so good that he had time in the pocket to relax and make thoughtful decisions. The problem with Eli is that he hasn't had the time to relax. He's shell shocked, and the 'it' factor comes and goes. Work on the OL, give Eli a reliable pocket and time to relax. I think you'll see an Eli who is good enough until the right replacement can be found.
If they think a backup, or a draft pick is the right long term solution, then go for it. But the argument should start with 'we found a good replacement', not centered around 'anybody but Eli'.


Just saw this after re-reading some of the content.

What I said, or have said but maybe I didn't make it clear, was that I wouldn't take Haskins at #6. Later in the draft? Sure.

As much as Murray scares me with his size, and believe it or not I actually find him more interesting than Haskins, Haskins scares me having played in such a club-med offense at OSU.
...  
christian : 2/10/2019 4:55 pm : link
There are three distinct, logical scenarios the Giants can manage toward:

1) Keep Manning and the core talent on the roster and try and win now
2) Keep Manning as a placeholder, trim costs elsewhere and build toward the future
3) Cut Manning and trim costs elsewhere and build towards the future

On paper right now the Giants don't have a lot of cap room comparatively. If this is a "win now" team they'll need to add a decent amount of talent and keep the talent they have.

It's easy to say cut Vernon, Ellison etc. but you have to replace that talent while adding more talent. Is that likely or easy? Of course not.

The Giants just aren't that talented -- and it's going to take more fiscal discipline, with the current and future roster.

It's going to take a major miracle to get that imbalance right in the time Manning is the QB.
I am so tired of this nonsense  
Matt M. : 2/10/2019 4:56 pm : link
If they don't cut him, there is no straight pay cut. It becomes an extension, which really makes no sense.
RE: Many of you here  
christian : 2/10/2019 5:01 pm : link
In comment 14292376 djm said:
Quote:
Think you have the cap and economic thing all figured out. You donít.

The giants have been flushing this roster for a full calendar year now. Many more high priced vets are slowly if not swiftly being phased out here, and yes that includes Eli. You sure here and talk about cap room and Eliís cap hit and how much space this year vs last year and itís all garbage to me. Itís useless conjecture being delivered as fact. Save it.

DG and Shurmur are flushing out the old and changing the entire dynamic of this roster. You might not see it but itís as clear as day. This isnít an all in on Eli thing. The cap is the least of our concerns. Tons of money is opening up these next two years.


When you say the next two years, do you mean 19 & 20, or 20 & 21 -- if it's the former -- what is your definition of a "ton?"

The Giants would need to cut a number of players to be in the neighborhood of the teams with the most cap room.
RE: ...  
WillVAB : 2/10/2019 6:16 pm : link
In comment 14292485 christian said:
Quote:
There are three distinct, logical scenarios the Giants can manage toward:

1) Keep Manning and the core talent on the roster and try and win now
2) Keep Manning as a placeholder, trim costs elsewhere and build toward the future
3) Cut Manning and trim costs elsewhere and build towards the future

On paper right now the Giants don't have a lot of cap room comparatively. If this is a "win now" team they'll need to add a decent amount of talent and keep the talent they have.

It's easy to say cut Vernon, Ellison etc. but you have to replace that talent while adding more talent. Is that likely or easy? Of course not.

The Giants just aren't that talented -- and it's going to take more fiscal discipline, with the current and future roster.

It's going to take a major miracle to get that imbalance right in the time Manning is the QB.


I wouldnít call Vernon and Ellison ďtalent.Ē Vernon hasnít done shit in two years and Ellison plays a role thatís usually occupied by a late round draft pick. Vernonís upgrade will come in the form of a cost controlled ER via the draft. Wouldnít be surprised to see the Giants come away w two ERís in the draft.

The Giants donít have many bad contracts on the books. Space will open up as they need it.
RE: ...  
Britt in VA : 2/10/2019 6:28 pm : link
In comment 14292485 christian said:
Quote:
There are three distinct, logical scenarios the Giants can manage toward:

1) Keep Manning and the core talent on the roster and try and win now
2) Keep Manning as a placeholder, trim costs elsewhere and build toward the future
3) Cut Manning and trim costs elsewhere and build towards the future

On paper right now the Giants don't have a lot of cap room comparatively. If this is a "win now" team they'll need to add a decent amount of talent and keep the talent they have.

It's easy to say cut Vernon, Ellison etc. but you have to replace that talent while adding more talent. Is that likely or easy? Of course not.

The Giants just aren't that talented -- and it's going to take more fiscal discipline, with the current and future roster.

It's going to take a major miracle to get that imbalance right in the time Manning is the QB.


I don't see a difference between #1 and #2.

Manning IS a placeholder in either scenario. He is 38. Two years or so realistically left. He is also capable of winning games if the roster is improved.
...  
christian : 2/10/2019 7:30 pm : link
Six players account for 60% of the 2019 cap. The Giants have a number of starters slated for free agency, including 3/4 of the starting secondary.

Do we all agree the Giants need more talent to eclipse the 5-11 mark and compete for the playoffs?

So hypothetically let's say the Giants eat and cut every bad contract -- the Giants get closer but aren't near the top of cap room over the next two years. They also create more holes to fill.

So let's say some of those contracts underperformed. Don't you need to exceed the contributions at those positions and upgrade the contribution at other positions to actually get better?
It's fluid....  
Britt in VA : 2/10/2019 7:37 pm : link
you can cut some and save others that are useful to you in the meantime. It's all about managing your assets.

It doesn't have to be all or nothing. It can be strategic.
RE: It's fluid....  
christian : 2/10/2019 7:46 pm : link
In comment 14292595 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
you can cut some and save others that are useful to you in the meantime. It's all about managing your assets.

It doesn't have to be all or nothing. It can be strategic.


Sure -- so what are some of those strategic moves?

I'm all for moving away from Vernon and Ellison. I'm also all for moving on from Martin.

But that creates positions where starters need to be replaced, where the replacements aren't guaranteed to be cheaper nor more productive than the incumbents.

So just practically the Giants need a center, right guard, right tackle, WR2, TE2 on offense.

Defensively a DE, 2 Edge Rushers, SS, FS, CB, nickle corner.

In my estimate that's an incredibly big task in a year.
Yeah, can't argue with it....  
Britt in VA : 2/10/2019 7:53 pm : link
Gotta be done at some point though.

Dave Gettleman started the purge midseason this year after the 1-7 start.

That shows me the guy isn't afraid to make hard moves. And on that same token, it shows me he'll cut Eli or move on from him when he strategically thinks it's time to do so.
bw  
fkap : 2/10/2019 7:56 pm : link
my point wasn't where or if to take Haskins (or any other prospect). It was about how QBs can look better given a decent line. You later commented that Eli could fill the role in New England with their better line and running game. This would seem to indicate that you believe Eli can still play to a certain extent if given time.

So why the urgency to grab at temporary fixes? Why the disparaging of the Giants over picking Barkley?

Instead of berating the Giants and being a prime cheerleader of the 'dump Eli' club, some of your comments indicate that you should be applauding the Giants for attempting to stay relevant and that they don't need to be desperate in the search for Eli's replacement.
RE: Yeah, can't argue with it....  
christian : 2/10/2019 8:42 pm : link
In comment 14292613 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
Gotta be done at some point though.

Dave Gettleman started the purge midseason this year after the 1-7 start.

That shows me the guy isn't afraid to make hard moves. And on that same token, it shows me he'll cut Eli or move on from him when he strategically thinks it's time to do so.


I think Manning does and should garner more consideration than any other player.

Even for a fan like me who's never had much personal connection to him -- I want to see the organization treat him well. And I suspect ownership and management know it's in their business and financial interest to do so.

I don't envy Gettleman. Especially when Manning shows up like he did in the back half of the season and shows he still belongs in the NFL.

If Manning was truly shot it would be much easier. He's not shot, I just think the Giants are in too deep of a hole to be a winner next year.

I hope no matter who is at QB Gettleman continues to be patient and builds up talent as the value presents itself.
RE: RE: It's fluid....  
PetesHereNow : 2/10/2019 8:49 pm : link
In comment 14292607 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 14292595 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


you can cut some and save others that are useful to you in the meantime. It's all about managing your assets.

It doesn't have to be all or nothing. It can be strategic.



Sure -- so what are some of those strategic moves?

I'm all for moving away from Vernon and Ellison. I'm also all for moving on from Martin.

But that creates positions where starters need to be replaced, where the replacements aren't guaranteed to be cheaper nor more productive than the incumbents.

So just practically the Giants need a center, right guard, right tackle, WR2, TE2 on offense.

Defensively a DE, 2 Edge Rushers, SS, FS, CB, nickle corner.

In my estimate that's an incredibly big task in a year.


Yes, there are plenty of needs, but think about it like this: you don't need stars at all of those spots. You don't need young and upcoming players everywhere. You just need guys who will give you an acceptable level of play.

Yes, we need to hit big on a few picks, as well, but you just need acceptable levels of play at some of these spots.
RE: RE: RE: It's fluid....  
christian : 2/10/2019 9:17 pm : link
In comment 14292685 PetesHereNow said:
Quote:

Yes, we need to hit big on a few picks, as well, but you just need acceptable levels of play at some of these spots.


Do you think the incumbents were playing at an acceptable level? I assume not, given 5-11.

I think finding even just acceptable at all those spots, not to mention the depth needed to survive a season is a tough task in one year.

Put it this way -- with 4 top 70 picks, and spending 110M in guaranteed money, how many positions did Gettleman upgrade to acceptable last offseason?
RE: RE: RE: RE: It's fluid....  
WillVAB : 2/10/2019 9:30 pm : link
In comment 14292737 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 14292685 PetesHereNow said:


Quote:



Yes, we need to hit big on a few picks, as well, but you just need acceptable levels of play at some of these spots.



Do you think the incumbents were playing at an acceptable level? I assume not, given 5-11.

I think finding even just acceptable at all those spots, not to mention the depth needed to survive a season is a tough task in one year.

Put it this way -- with 4 top 70 picks, and spending 110M in guaranteed money, how many positions did Gettleman upgrade to acceptable last offseason?


The Giants can be a playoff team with scrub starters at some areas if theyíre strong in the right areas. The Eagles had a garbage secondary and were potentially a dropped pass away from the NFCC.

Can they turn the OL into a strength? Can they improve the front 7 on D enough this off-season? Weíll see, but itís certainly possible given whatís likely to be available in FA and the talent in the draft.
RE: RE: I don't think having Eli in the locker room at 23 million  
Gatorade Dunk : 2/11/2019 1:05 pm : link
In comment 14291865 PetesHereNow said:
Quote:
In comment 14291846 xman said:


Quote:


or whatever exorbitant price is healthy for the team with his production. Imagine what the other players think making less then a 10th of that .

Take our lumps now. We will not be any worse in fact we will likely get better quicker




Yeah Curtis Riley, Chad Wheeler, and Spencer Pulley would be all pros if it wasnít for that way overpaid asshole making 20+ million a year.

Hereís a novel concept. Give current version of Eli a decent line and a defense that can make a stop in the 4th quarter, and maybe things are improved. Last off-season was a good draft. Letís have another one and hit on a few FAís so that when we do get the next Giants quarterback, he can succeed without the weight of the world on his shoulders.

The whole team matters. Old guys like Brady, Brees, Ben, and Rivers donít have their fan bases clamoring for their replacements. Why? Theyíre old and make a lot of money too. But, the teams around them are good enough and they continue to achieve and add to their HOF reputations.

Whereas, our Eli, he gets surrounded by stooges for about 7 years of bad drafts and our fan base has members like you in it who ignore basic obvious facts about the sport and question what the locker room thinks of him when about everyone on the current team has said heís their leader.

Yes, let's pay Eli like a franchise QB but give him the supporting cast that a rookie QB would need, and do so without the low cap cost of that rookie QB. 38 year old athletes get better than they were at 36 or 37 all the time. Shouldn't be a problem.
RE: I am so tired of this nonsense  
Gatorade Dunk : 2/11/2019 1:13 pm : link
In comment 14292488 Matt M. said:
Quote:
If they don't cut him, there is no straight pay cut. It becomes an extension, which really makes no sense.

This is completely untrue. His salary can be converted into unlikely-to-achieve incentives, which translates into immediate cap space (which would then be docked against the team in 2020 if any of those incentives are actually achieved). The Broncos did this recently with Peyton, so it's not something that the Mannings are unfamiliar with.

This idea that the only way to trim salary is by extending is a total myth.
RE: RE: RE: I don't think having Eli in the locker room at 23 million  
Lambuth_Special : 2/11/2019 1:36 pm : link
Quote:
The whole team matters. Old guys like Brady, Brees, Ben, and Rivers donít have their fan bases clamoring for their replacements. Why? Theyíre old and make a lot of money too. But, the teams around them are good enough and they continue to achieve and add to their HOF reputations.


The gap between Brady, Brees, Ben, Rivers, and Eli has been pretty large from 2016-2018 save for Rivers' 2016 season.

The combination of getting the right team in place and having faith that doing so will catapult Eli back into the top ten of QBs - before he ages out of effectiveness - is pretty risky.

Not many QBs play well past age 38, save for Brady, Moon, and Brees (who fell off in the latter half of 2018 regardless).
RE: RE: RE: RE: I don't think having Eli in the locker room at 23 million  
Zeke's Alibi : 2/11/2019 1:43 pm : link
In comment 14293380 Lambuth_Special said:
Quote:


Quote:


The whole team matters. Old guys like Brady, Brees, Ben, and Rivers donít have their fan bases clamoring for their replacements. Why? Theyíre old and make a lot of money too. But, the teams around them are good enough and they continue to achieve and add to their HOF reputations.



The gap between Brady, Brees, Ben, Rivers, and Eli has been pretty large from 2016-2018 save for Rivers' 2016 season.

The combination of getting the right team in place and having faith that doing so will catapult Eli back into the top ten of QBs - before he ages out of effectiveness - is pretty risky.

Not many QBs play well past age 38, save for Brady, Moon, and Brees (who fell off in the latter half of 2018 regardless).


Brees arm has been an issue two years in a row in the second half of the season. He refuses to pull the trigger deep anymore because he knows he can't get it there anymore.
There the Giants go again  
lawguy9801 : 2/11/2019 2:04 pm : link
rewarding for past performance instead of looking to the future.

Millions that could be spent shoring up the OL, or to fill one of the many other holes, will go to Eli as a lifetime achievement award.

This is how losing franchises operate, and lo and behold, the Giants have been losers for a long time. Get ready for 6-10 at best in 2019.
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