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Will DG push all his chips in the middle of the table

Doomster : 2/10/2019 8:35 am
this season?

I think we will finally know how DG feels about Eli....

Cut him, save 17M, and just about guarantee a high pick next season....

Or, does he do the unthinkable?

Finally get an OL, and pin our hopes on SB, OBj, and Eli?

There is no way this defense can be fixed in one year, but there is a chance the offense can.....

To Eli or not to Eli, that is the question.....
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RE: If he's counting on Eli  
djm : 2/10/2019 7:46 pm : link
In comment 14292181 WillieYoung said:
Quote:
He doesn't have any chips.

Hope I'm wrong but the 4 and out at home against Dallas with the game on the line is etched in my mind.


Never mind the 30 points scored or the awful defense.

That right there is my exact point with this Eli and OL talk. Itís been hyper analyzed for years now yet very little talk about the worst stretch of nyg defense in their history. And thatís not hyperbole.
RE: RE: What people..  
EricJ : 2/10/2019 7:49 pm : link
In comment 14292601 Britt in VA said:
Quote:

You gotta fix the roster regardless.


Absolutely...

The roster (starters) is not good at all and the depth is even worse. The funny thing is some here want to trade away the few good players we have for picks.

As the roster stands right now, this team is a Barkley injury away from having one of the worst offenses in football and competing for the top pick in next year's draft. Just think about what this team would have looked like last season without Barkley.



RE: What people..  
Jimmy Googs : 2/10/2019 8:03 pm : link
In comment 14292597 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
don't get is there was never an "all in" with Eli.

If there was, we'd have taken care to build the OL as much as any other position.


How do you know DG didn't think he did. Call it whatever you want, he was thinking "in"...
Huh??  
FatMan in Charlotte : 2/10/2019 8:11 pm : link
DG has been here one year. In that time, he turned the roster over by 70% and the starters by 50%.

He's trying to improve the team.

To me, going "all in" means they have Eli as the centerpiece and everything else is built around him. Everyone knows if Eli hasn't played his last snap, next year will be his last, but we keep hearing fanciful shit about going "all in". It's basically just one more way to slam the team.

Extending Eli for one year to lower his cap hit  
jlukes : 2/10/2019 8:15 pm : link
Is the likely play. It gives us more cap room this year and any small dead money it gives in 2020 when he retires or is cut will be insignificant.
I am not slamming the team or Eli by stating DG  
Jimmy Googs : 2/10/2019 8:19 pm : link
overestimated what his team could achieve. Throw all the stats you want on turnover, but that just tells you how bad he saw things as time went on.

When he took the job and started his work he had a different mind-set than what he wound up dealing with and ending with...
When time went on??  
FatMan in Charlotte : 2/10/2019 8:34 pm : link
Quote:
Throw all the stats you want on turnover, but that just tells you how bad he saw things as time went on.


When the year began - meaning the final roster going into week 1, there was 60% turnover from the year prior and 10 new starters (not including KR, P and PR, or even if one were to look at Latimer at WR2)

As the year progressed, Apple and Jenkins were gone.

He saw things were bad immediately. But you know what, we didn't draft a QB, so that left illuminaries to speculate that Eli was being kept to placate the fans and that anyone in charge had a mandate to keep him, hence the incredibly illogical narrative that the team was All-in and prepping for a SB run.

That's part of the problem with contrarians. They are often forced to take sides that make them look like complete dumbasses and forced to hammer away that it is somehow right, even when logic dictates otherwise
RE: I am not slamming the team or Eli by stating DG  
Johnny5 : 2/10/2019 8:35 pm : link
In comment 14292640 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
overestimated what his team could achieve. Throw all the stats you want on turnover, but that just tells you how bad he saw things as time went on.

When he took the job and started his work he had a different mind-set than what he wound up dealing with and ending with...

I don't think that's right Googs. I mean he did what he could but I have to believe if he was really enamored with any of the QBs he'd have taken that QB last year. Honestly I can't imagine passing on Saquon Barkley, but I understand we all have different opinions on it. I am not sold on Darnold not at all and Saquon seemed about as "Can't miss" as I've ever seen... not sure how anyone justifies passing on that. But I can understand if people really liked one of those QBs being frustrated. I think he made the right pick though, and like Fats said you have to give him credit for cutting dead weight and turning over the roster... especially not hanging on to questionable moves he himself made. And he had a pretty darn good draft. I think QB replacement will work itself out at some point in the next couple of years, and I still completely believe that Eli can win with an improved roster (especially on the OL). Just my opinion though.
RE: When time went on??  
Jimmy Googs : 2/10/2019 8:44 pm : link
In comment 14292667 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:


He saw things were bad immediately. But you know what, we didn't draft a QB, so that left illuminaries to speculate that Eli was being kept to placate the fans and that anyone in charge had a mandate to keep him, hence the incredibly illogical narrative that the team was All-in and prepping for a SB run.



Then he really "saw" nothing. And only miscalibrated and then reacted in certain instances. Not throwing him under the bus...unless of course he keeps doing it.

And watch your tone chucklehead. Your crap doesn't fly with me as we have done this before...

RE: RE: I am not slamming the team or Eli by stating DG  
Jimmy Googs : 2/10/2019 8:48 pm : link
In comment 14292669 Johnny5 said:
Quote:
In comment 14292640 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


overestimated what his team could achieve. Throw all the stats you want on turnover, but that just tells you how bad he saw things as time went on.

When he took the job and started his work he had a different mind-set than what he wound up dealing with and ending with...


I don't think that's right Googs. I mean he did what he could but I have to believe if he was really enamored with any of the QBs he'd have taken that QB last year. Honestly I can't imagine passing on Saquon Barkley, but I understand we all have different opinions on it. I am not sold on Darnold not at all and Saquon seemed about as "Can't miss" as I've ever seen... not sure how anyone justifies passing on that. But I can understand if people really liked one of those QBs being frustrated. I think he made the right pick though, and like Fats said you have to give him credit for cutting dead weight and turning over the roster... especially not hanging on to questionable moves he himself made. And he had a pretty darn good draft. I think QB replacement will work itself out at some point in the next couple of years, and I still completely believe that Eli can win with an improved roster (especially on the OL). Just my opinion though.


I am not making this about Barkley vs a QB so don't you. This is about a team that needs deep restructuring and some of the moves made in Free Agency and even the draft don't fit what, imv, was needed. Year 1...got it. I am briefed.

Year 2 needs less mistakes.
RE: What people..  
bw in dc : 2/10/2019 8:48 pm : link
In comment 14292597 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
don't get is there was never an "all in" with Eli.

If there was, we'd have taken care to build the OL as much as any other position.


Youíre kidding, right?

So drafting a G high in the second round, laying record coin for LT Solder, the miss on Norwell, signing Omameh were just casual, stop-gap OL moves last year?

Then drafting Barkley, to upgrade a moribund running game, a QBís best friend, was just coincidence to helping Eli?

If you want a second crack to fix this absurd statement, by all means please do...
Gettleman..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 2/10/2019 8:57 pm : link
walked into a team that had a terrible OL several years running and he did what? He attempting to replace each position on the line to upgrade it.

He also saw a LB corps that had been neglected for years and he did what? traded for Ogletree.

No matter how many "cracks" I take , the idea DG went "all-in" doesn't get any closer to being the truth.

You are so fucking absurd that you've had to imagine a conspiracy theory about Eli being kept as a condition for hiring a GM and coach just to fit the ridiculous narrative.

DG's moves have been to try and improve the team. That's really the only crack one need to take at this. It isn't rocket science and it sure as fuck isn't a conspiracy.
RE: RE: What people..  
Jay on the Island : 2/10/2019 8:58 pm : link
In comment 14292683 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 14292597 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


don't get is there was never an "all in" with Eli.

If there was, we'd have taken care to build the OL as much as any other position.



Youíre kidding, right?

So drafting a G high in the second round, laying record coin for LT Solder, the miss on Norwell, signing Omameh were just casual, stop-gap OL moves last year?

Then drafting Barkley, to upgrade a moribund running game, a QBís best friend, was just coincidence to helping Eli?

If you want a second crack to fix this absurd statement, by all means please do...

The Giants turned their attention to Solder after they missed out on Norwell. They never planned on signing either. Omameh was essentially a 1 year deal in hopes that he would build off his 2017 season with Jax. He also was brought in to help fix the locker room.

FMIC is right, what people fail to realize is that the Giants just had a much higher grade on Barkley than they did on the QB's. People like to twist this fact to support their agenda that the Giants went "all in" with Eli. Hernandez was the BPA in round 2 at a position of need. Most expected him to go in round 1. This roster was a huge mess and DG and co knew that it would take longer than a year to fix all the holes. Of course they were going to tell the fans that they intend to compete for a playoff spot what else were they supposed to say?
Correction  
Jay on the Island : 2/10/2019 8:58 pm : link
they never planned on signing both not either.
Did he try to "take care to build the O-line" or not?  
Jimmy Googs : 2/10/2019 9:07 pm : link
This was your statement to support DG didn't really concern himself seriously with the Oline and therefore wasn't all-in with Eli.

So which is it...

Gettleman..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 2/10/2019 9:16 pm : link
replaced or was left with different lineman but Wheeler by the end of the year vs. 2018.

It was clear he saw the OL, LB, the special teams units and depth at DB and WR as a weakness. He tried to upgrade all of those positions.

Again - Why does focusing on rebuilding a unit that had been terrible several years running constitute going all in with Eli?

This isn't an either or scenario. DG made moves to try and improve the team, not placate the QB. That's the difference between the ridiculous notion we were "all in with Eli" and just trying to build a much better team going forward.
...  
christian : 2/10/2019 9:27 pm : link
The incongruous move with the balance of the offseason was Solder.

The others moves were for younger players or with easier exits.

Giving that much guaranteed money to a guy at 30, 31, and 32 who was never an above average player is the one geniune mistake that felt like it was geared toward win-now.
RE: Gettleman..  
EricJ : 2/10/2019 9:28 pm : link
In comment 14292733 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:

Again - Why does focusing on rebuilding a unit that had been terrible several years running constitute going all in with Eli?


I personally don't think it meant he was "All In" on Eli. He knows Eli needed those building blocks to be successful. We have beaten his lack of mobility and happy feet thing to death. So, DG knew we needed to fix those issues around Eli to be successful. He also knew he would need to do the same thing for a rookie QB to be successful. So, either way (with or without Eli) DG was going to make those moves.
The alternative was.....  
Britt in VA : 2/10/2019 9:29 pm : link
Flowers at LT for another year, or.....?
RE: ...  
Jay on the Island : 2/10/2019 9:32 pm : link
In comment 14292752 christian said:
Quote:
The incongruous move with the balance of the offseason was Solder.

The others moves were for younger players or with easier exits.

Giving that much guaranteed money to a guy at 30, 31, and 32 who was never an above average player is the one geniune mistake that felt like it was geared toward win-now.

It's likely that Solder will be the starting LT for at least two more seasons. I wouldn't call signing a player for 3 years a win now move. Signing Solder would allow the Giants to focus on the other positions along the line while drafting/signing a player to develop behind him and hopefully take over for him.
RE: RE: ...  
christian : 2/10/2019 9:40 pm : link
In comment 14292758 Jay on the Island said:
Quote:
In comment 14292752 christian said:


Quote:


The incongruous move with the balance of the offseason was Solder.

The others moves were for younger players or with easier exits.

Giving that much guaranteed money to a guy at 30, 31, and 32 who was never an above average player is the one geniune mistake that felt like it was geared toward win-now.


It's likely that Solder will be the starting LT for at least two more seasons. I wouldn't call signing a player for 3 years a win now move. Signing Solder would allow the Giants to focus on the other positions along the line while drafting/signing a player to develop behind him and hopefully take over for him.


If signing a guy going into his 8th NFL season to what was at the time a record contract at his position isn't a win-now move, then honestly what is?

You're not giving a guy 35M guaranteed with cap hits of 10, 17, and 17 to placehold. You're paying that for him to produce immediately.
RE: RE: RE: ...  
Britt in VA : 2/10/2019 9:43 pm : link
In comment 14292770 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 14292758 Jay on the Island said:


Quote:


In comment 14292752 christian said:


Quote:


The incongruous move with the balance of the offseason was Solder.

The others moves were for younger players or with easier exits.

Giving that much guaranteed money to a guy at 30, 31, and 32 who was never an above average player is the one geniune mistake that felt like it was geared toward win-now.


It's likely that Solder will be the starting LT for at least two more seasons. I wouldn't call signing a player for 3 years a win now move. Signing Solder would allow the Giants to focus on the other positions along the line while drafting/signing a player to develop behind him and hopefully take over for him.



If signing a guy going into his 8th NFL season to what was at the time a record contract at his position isn't a win-now move, then honestly what is?

You're not giving a guy 35M guaranteed with cap hits of 10, 17, and 17 to placehold. You're paying that for him to produce immediately.


LT ainít a lot different than QB these days. Theyíre not exactly growing on trees. Kirk Cousins just got a historical contract too at his position. Is it because he was worth it, or is it because the market dictated it.
RE: RE: RE: ...  
Jay on the Island : 2/10/2019 9:46 pm : link
In comment 14292770 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 14292758 Jay on the Island said:


Quote:


In comment 14292752 christian said:


Quote:


The incongruous move with the balance of the offseason was Solder.

The others moves were for younger players or with easier exits.

Giving that much guaranteed money to a guy at 30, 31, and 32 who was never an above average player is the one geniune mistake that felt like it was geared toward win-now.


It's likely that Solder will be the starting LT for at least two more seasons. I wouldn't call signing a player for 3 years a win now move. Signing Solder would allow the Giants to focus on the other positions along the line while drafting/signing a player to develop behind him and hopefully take over for him.



If signing a guy going into his 8th NFL season to what was at the time a record contract at his position isn't a win-now move, then honestly what is?

You're not giving a guy 35M guaranteed with cap hits of 10, 17, and 17 to placehold. You're paying that for him to produce immediately.

Any veteran free agent signing is for them to produce immediately. It is very rare for good LT's to hit free agency. When they do they are going to get paid.
RE: RE: RE: RE: ...  
Jay on the Island : 2/10/2019 9:46 pm : link
In comment 14292775 Britt in VA said:
Quote:

LT ainít a lot different than QB these days. Theyíre not exactly growing on trees. Kirk Cousins just got a historical contract too at his position. Is it because he was worth it, or is it because the market dictated it.

Great example Britt. Is Kirk Cousins the best QB in the NFL? Did he deserve to be the highest paid?
Signing Solder..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 2/10/2019 9:56 pm : link
was a result of years of poor decisions on the OL:

Quote:
If signing a guy going into his 8th NFL season to what was at the time a record contract at his position isn't a win-now move, then honestly what is?

You're not giving a guy 35M guaranteed with cap hits of 10, 17, and 17 to placehold. You're paying that for him to produce immediately.


I don't know what you guys wanted. Paying nobody and waiting until Eli retired to start spending money again? It isn't a "we are going to suck" or a "we are winning the Super Bowl" mentality that teams take. NFL teams don't tank, mainly because the reward just isn't there for tanking.

Look at 2016. We spent $200M on the defense. Using the logic of many here, that wasn't going "all-in" with Eli.

It was meant to put building blocks in place for the D, a unit that had been historically bad. Again - with the goal of getting good players to make the team better. That plan actually paid short term dividends, then crashed and burned.

Based on this subjective "win now" argument, it is almost like a lot of you don't think we should sign good players, and if we do, it signals a SB or bust plan. I don't get it.
RE: Shurmur is a big factor. You canít ask the HC to develop a QB  
giantstock : 2/10/2019 10:00 pm : link
In comment 14292248 Ivan15 said:
Quote:
that he doesnít like or doesnít fit the system. Of the Big 3, assuming Murray is one of them, Lock is probably the best system fit.

If Shurmur doesnít like Lock, the Giants might as well trade out, get extra picks, and get Jones in late first, early second. Jones is probably the best system fit, but if they donít like Jones, wait a year. In another year, the warts on the top 2020 QBs will show up.


My God I hope they don'tog with a "system fit"." What happens when he gets fired?
...  
christian : 2/10/2019 10:04 pm : link
You guys are making a completely different argument. We can debate the market value And scarcity of left tackles in free agency.

But my point, that Jay responded to, is whether it was a win-now motivated move or not. I don't think there is a very intellectually honest argument based on the age and cost of the player it wasn't.

As for the value and wisdom of the move. It's been debated plenty here; just because he's the best player available doesn't mean you have to sign him to an outrageous contract. If the supply sucks, wait. Again, unless you are focused on winning now.

Don't forget -- Gettleman and Shurmur didn't go into the season thinking Flowers was worthless, they thought he was out of position. Keeping him at LT, and eventually having to replace him with Wheeler, at left tackle wouldn't have been some wild stretch, it happened 30 feet away.

There were many alternatives; invest that money at center where there were good players, invest it at right guard where there were better players than Omameh, be patient like the Pats and trade for Trent Brown, or hold onto the money and let it roll over.
RE: Signing Solder..  
christian : 2/10/2019 10:11 pm : link
In comment 14292798 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:

Look at 2016. We spent $200M on the defense.


The focal points in that offseason were young vets all going into their 5th NFL seasons at 27 or younger -- and truth be told those absolutely were win now moves.

The owner literally told the GM go fix this right now or else.
RE: ...  
Jay on the Island : 2/10/2019 10:12 pm : link
In comment 14292802 christian said:
Quote:
You guys are making a completely different argument. We can debate the market value And scarcity of left tackles in free agency.

But my point, that Jay responded to, is whether it was a win-now motivated move or not. I don't think there is a very intellectually honest argument based on the age and cost of the player it wasn't.

As for the value and wisdom of the move. It's been debated plenty here; just because he's the best player available doesn't mean you have to sign him to an outrageous contract. If the supply sucks, wait. Again, unless you are focused on winning now.

Don't forget -- Gettleman and Shurmur didn't go into the season thinking Flowers was worthless, they thought he was out of position. Keeping him at LT, and eventually having to replace him with Wheeler, at left tackle wouldn't have been some wild stretch, it happened 30 feet away.

There were many alternatives; invest that money at center where there were good players, invest it at right guard where there were better players than Omameh, be patient like the Pats and trade for Trent Brown, or hold onto the money and let it roll over.

Honestly I think the Giants didn't expect much from Flowers but didn't have any other good options besides Wheeler. The Giants had to rebuild an entire offensive line in one offseason. There is almost no way that they were going to be able to do that especially since they weren't loaded with cap space. The Giants had little choice but to hope that Flowers would rebound at a new position while knowing that Wheeler could be an option in the likely event that Flowers doesn't work out.
RE: Did he try to  
giantstock : 2/10/2019 11:04 pm : link
In comment 14292722 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
This was your statement to support DG didn't really concern himself seriously with the Oline and therefore wasn't all-in with Eli.

So which is it...


You're wasting your time with these guys -- they are thick.

You're wasting your time. THey're too thick. Dg was quoted that he made moves to win now but they bury their heads in the sand or live in fantasy-land and try to twist what he said to fit their own narrative.

And the absurdity of the justification of the SOldier pickup. DO you think they have any clue that if the GMne signed norwell that they probably would have been stuck with Flowers? And do you think you can explain to any of them that now we got soldier we still didn't win in 2018 and more than likely won;t win in 2019? Isn;t it great that we got for 2018 and 2019 and he'l help lead us to 5-11 type records as he ages beyond 30 fro a rebuilding team?

ANd do you think they understand that when you traded for Ogelltree that doesn;t help your ability to rebuild when you trade him for draft picks and his salary is way over-priced?

And do you think they understand that after you make a series of bad moves with Solder, Ogeltree and Stewart and you could have used Omameh money and SOldier money and stewart money to get better players mostly YOUNGER PLAYERS -- that you don't ignore it just because later on DG started dumping other roster spots?

And how they always look to change the narrative on the Barkley pick. Most of us that wanted a QB are happy with Barkley PROVIDED THAT A QB COMES IN THE NEAR FUTURE. They continually try to push a false narrative on this subject.

Then when you suggest that we want a QB as soon as possible to optimize Barkley you get these lunatics exaggerating your posts trying to change your post from "we need to move quick to optimize Barkley" to "you think Barkley only has 3 years."

The blind followers to DG and the acceptance of many fans to failure is just so mind-boggling. Any dart they can throw to provide an excuse, they'll gladly do it without shame.
RE: ...  
Johnny5 : 2/10/2019 11:08 pm : link
In comment 14292802 christian said:
Quote:
You guys are making a completely different argument. We can debate the market value And scarcity of left tackles in free agency.

But my point, that Jay responded to, is whether it was a win-now motivated move or not. I don't think there is a very intellectually honest argument based on the age and cost of the player it wasn't.

As for the value and wisdom of the move. It's been debated plenty here; just because he's the best player available doesn't mean you have to sign him to an outrageous contract. If the supply sucks, wait. Again, unless you are focused on winning now.

Don't forget -- Gettleman and Shurmur didn't go into the season thinking Flowers was worthless, they thought he was out of position. Keeping him at LT, and eventually having to replace him with Wheeler, at left tackle wouldn't have been some wild stretch, it happened 30 feet away.

There were many alternatives; invest that money at center where there were good players, invest it at right guard where there were better players than Omameh, be patient like the Pats and trade for Trent Brown, or hold onto the money and let it roll over.

But you are assuming it was a win now move to sign Solder. I don't see it that way at all. I see it as a "Holy shit this line sucks and I need to address it ASAFP." I mean they went after Norwell first which seemed like the right move, but he ended up not even grading out all that well this year, at least initially. The next best FA OL available was Solder. He got paid what the market dictated, and frankly, we had no choice but to sign him. And he got sucked into a no win situation with a crappy OL, a BRAND new offense and coaching staff, and a rookie starting right next to him. Not sure what we all expected but it's pretty obvious in hindsight why he struggled the first half of the season. And honestly, I thought he looked pretty good the second half of the year and I think we are set on the left side now for a while.
RE: Gettleman..  
bw in dc : 2/11/2019 12:45 am : link
In comment 14292703 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
walked into a team that had a terrible OL several years running and he did what? He attempting to replace each position on the line to upgrade it.

He also saw a LB corps that had been neglected for years and he did what? traded for Ogletree.

No matter how many "cracks" I take , the idea DG went "all-in" doesn't get any closer to being the truth.

You are so fucking absurd that you've had to imagine a conspiracy theory about Eli being kept as a condition for hiring a GM and coach just to fit the ridiculous narrative.

DG's moves have been to try and improve the team. That's really the only crack one need to take at this. It isn't rocket science and it sure as fuck isn't a conspiracy.


So the two-time SB MVP, who all key constituents at Jints Central fawn over, was just going to be a passenger on this team in 2018? The QB position was suddenly just another cog on the team now, right? How interesting...

After the Eli Five - Mara, Accorsi, Gettleman, Shurmur, and Shula - had their highly anticipated film session watching Eli play, they all came out tripping over themselves in euphoria telling us how Eli still had it. Like a group of A cappella singers, they all sang the same tune - Eliís arm looked great, he could still make all the throws, and their was plenty of gas in the tank. Sorry, but that was an all-in declaration.

On top of that, OBJ was healthy with a new contract, Engram was healthy, Shepherd was healthy, a new generational RB was here to spell the running game, and a trio of new olinemen were here to finally provide pass protection and open holes. Hell, the Giants were a popular dark horse pick with many well recognized media types/ďexpertsĒ...

And what are they about to do in a few weeks? Double down on the all-in and bring Eli back.

Many here know the outcome will likely be similar to this year, maybe a few Ws better, but I just get the sense they want another chance to give Eli that special send off. They see the success of Brady and Brees and ask themselves the question - why not Eli, too?
And your film study told you otherwise?  
Britt in VA : 2/11/2019 7:22 am : link
?
LOL..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 2/11/2019 8:12 am : link
"The Eli Five".

You are so fucking gone, you don't even know it.

Or worse yet, you do know it and still put those ridiculous posts on here.

I liked it better when you were regaling the board on how to win, Dan Snyder style. Those were fun days. almost as good as the days the Giants were winning and you stayed off the board crying in your Redskins blanket.....
RE: RE: Gettleman..  
Johnny5 : 2/11/2019 8:20 am : link
In comment 14292877 bw in dc said:
Quote:

So the two-time SB MVP, who all key constituents at Jints Central fawn over, was just going to be a passenger on this team in 2018? The QB position was suddenly just another cog on the team now, right? How interesting...

After the Eli Five - Mara, Accorsi, Gettleman, Shurmur, and Shula - had their highly anticipated film session watching Eli play, they all came out tripping over themselves in euphoria telling us how Eli still had it. Like a group of A cappella singers, they all sang the same tune - Eliís arm looked great, he could still make all the throws, and their was plenty of gas in the tank. Sorry, but that was an all-in declaration.

On top of that, OBJ was healthy with a new contract, Engram was healthy, Shepherd was healthy, a new generational RB was here to spell the running game, and a trio of new olinemen were here to finally provide pass protection and open holes. Hell, the Giants were a popular dark horse pick with many well recognized media types/ďexpertsĒ...

And what are they about to do in a few weeks? Double down on the all-in and bring Eli back.

Many here know the outcome will likely be similar to this year, maybe a few Ws better, but I just get the sense they want another chance to give Eli that special send off. They see the success of Brady and Brees and ask themselves the question - why not Eli, too?

Wow... lol

I don't know where even to start here... LOL, Holy CRAP dude.

OK I'll start here, it's not just Brees and Brady, it's also Rivers and Roethlisberger still playing at a high level. So use logic here for a minute... Pick one scenario:

1) We just happened to get saddled with the only QB of the group that fell off a cliff.

2) All have diminished to some degree but 4 are playing in established offenses with teams that didn't fall apart around them due to a full decade of horrible drafting and actual mediocre blocking that didn't have their "generational talent" RB getting hit literally after 6 inches of receiving a handoff?

Look, Eli may or may not have dropped off at some level more than his contemporaries.... but how would you know that for sure based on what we are trotting out there in front of him, with more than 50% roster turnover and a brand new coaching staff and scheme?? I mean, SERIOUSLY - how do some people not have one iota of situational awareness here?? Rather it's some conspiracy (SERIOUSLY??) to keep Eli propped up back there at all costs by the FO? Are you hearing yourself here?
So far the only evidence I hear  
Now Mike in MD : 2/11/2019 9:35 am : link
of some Eli conspiracy is (1) we didn't draft a QB; and (2) we signed Solder. But others isn't at least possible that DG had SB much more highly rated than any of the available QBs so he simply went with a guy who he thought was a sure fire HOF. Which by the way seems to be the case because SB put up almost unprecedented numbers for a rookie RB behind an OL that waivered between extremely bad and mediocre. Imagine this guy behind a quality OL. Re Solder, the LT position had to be filled. FLowers was not the answer. So DG went out and got the best LT on the market. How is that any reflection on what he thought of Eli or his future? If he didn't sign Solder what were the options that ahy of you beleive should have been pursued that would somehow not be a reflection of some Eli conspiracy?
Johnny5...  
bw in dc : 2/11/2019 10:36 am : link
This is what we know.

At the end 2017 season, Mara was embarrassed by the Eli benching. Granted he helped manipulate it, and then distanced himself like a coward, but he was unprepared for all of the fan and media negativity.

Mara fired Reese. Declares there is going to be an expansive GM search. Out of nowhere, Accorsi, who just happened to draft Eli, is brought in to conduct this so called expansive search.

In what seemed like only minutes, Accorsi tells Mara to hire Gettleman, a former right hand man of Accorsi who was there when Accorsi drafted Eli. And has claimed publicly how much he admires and loves Eli.

Accorsi and Gettleman then hire Shurmur, the hot QB guru who just made chicken salad out of Case Keenum.

Days later, all agree, interestingly, that Eli is the QB to continue leading the Giants.

Now, you and others can ignore all of the above as mere coincidence, but I think it all screams that Mara had a plan to keep Eli, and wanted to make hires that largely supported that view...
...  
christian : 2/11/2019 10:44 am : link
Johnny5 -- the scenario you described above (get someone ASAFP or else) -- is something more direct than win now. That feels like panic, which I'm not ready to claim.

I don't subscribe to the idea you ever have to do "something."

Flowers to Wheeler wasn't intolerable to Gettleman on the right side, I don't know why it would've been such a tragedy on the left.

There are a number of investments along the offensive line that would have been less costly, and more in tune with Gettleman's other acquisitions, that were hedged and cautious.

That's why I am saying the Solder acquisition was incongruous with his other moves and likely the worst of them.

There..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 2/11/2019 10:48 am : link
was near universal scorn for not signing Andrew Whitworth, thinking they could get a few years out of him. He's 37 years old and just played in the SB.

Solder was 29 when we signed him and people act as if he's going to have to retire shortly.

In lineman terms, Solder is about average age. Why can't he be here for several years?
This  
Lambuth_Special : 2/11/2019 12:31 pm : link
Quote:
1) We just happened to get saddled with the only QB of the group that fell off a cliff.


Unfortunately, this might be exactly what happened.

RE: This  
Johnny5 : 2/11/2019 12:46 pm : link
In comment 14293287 Lambuth_Special said:
Quote:


Quote:


1) We just happened to get saddled with the only QB of the group that fell off a cliff.



Unfortunately, this might be exactly what happened.

Yeah the second option is much more logical and tangible in my view. But people gonna believe what they gonna believe... lol
RE: RE: This  
Lambuth_Special : 2/11/2019 1:13 pm : link
In comment 14293307 Johnny5 said:
Quote:
In comment 14293287 Lambuth_Special said:


Quote:




Quote:


1) We just happened to get saddled with the only QB of the group that fell off a cliff.



Unfortunately, this might be exactly what happened.



Yeah the second option is much more logical and tangible in my view. But people gonna believe what they gonna believe... lol


I think it's a combination: The terrible roster management led to Eli's play falling off, and it's questionable whether it could be brought back at this time of his career.

There was a thread a while back when people were speculating about the moment Eli's decline became noticeable. Many pointed out to vicious hit he took against Washington in week 3 of 2016, thanks in part by some wonderful turnstile blocking by John Jerry I believe.

It's similar to what happened to Drew Brees this past season when he took a huge in the latter half of the season: https://twitter.com/SharpFootball/status/1087563793239035904?s=19

I think with really strong protection, Eli could probably have a solid 2019, however. It's just really risky going beyond that though, since few QBs play well past age 38.
RE: RE: RE: This  
Johnny5 : 2/11/2019 1:24 pm : link
In comment 14293355 Lambuth_Special said:
Quote:

I think it's a combination: The terrible roster management led to Eli's play falling off, and it's questionable whether it could be brought back at this time of his career.

There was a thread a while back when people were speculating about the moment Eli's decline became noticeable. Many pointed out to vicious hit he took against Washington in week 3 of 2016, thanks in part by some wonderful turnstile blocking by John Jerry I believe.

It's similar to what happened to Drew Brees this past season when he took a huge in the latter half of the season: https://twitter.com/SharpFootball/status/1087563793239035904?s=19

I think with really strong protection, Eli could probably have a solid 2019, however. It's just really risky going beyond that though, since few QBs play well past age 38.

Well that's actually a reasonable assessment that's tougher to argue. I remember that hit, and clearly he looked to have happy feet in the first half of this season. Still, he seemed to progress as the year went on and the whole offense became more comfortable with each other and Shurmur's system, so I guess I remain more optimistic then some others. I still get the impression that he can play at a high level with better blocking, and not just pass blocking but run blocking.
Comparing Eli to Brees, Brady, Rivers, and Ben is foolish.  
Zeke's Alibi : 2/11/2019 1:37 pm : link
Eli was never on Brees or Brady's level. Brees and Brady are also lunatics about health and nutrition. That still hasn't stopped Brees arm from being an issue. He mitigates this though because of his ability in the short and intermediate game.

Rivers is still playing at a high level, but I'd argue Ben isn't. His play has taken a noticeable step back in the last few years and it has been mitigated because the Steelers have surrounded him with so much talent on the offensive side of the ball. I wouldn't be suprised if they are a total dumpster fire next year.
RE: Comparing Eli to Brees, Brady, Rivers, and Ben is foolish.  
Lambuth_Special : 2/11/2019 1:42 pm : link
Quote:
Rivers is still playing at a high level, but I'd argue Ben isn't. His play has taken a noticeable step back in the last few years and it has been mitigated because the Steelers have surrounded him with so much talent on the offensive side of the ball. I wouldn't be suprised if they are a total dumpster fire next year.


Yup, and there's definitely a faction of Steelers fans who are pushing a transition away from Ben soon (though not as large as Eli's).

Rivers is an interesting case. By all accounts, they are going to re-sign/extend him at the end of next season. Obviously, it's wait-and-see for how he does in 2019, but I can envision him falling off hard as he hits age 38 and 39, as his physical gifts were never that great to begin with.
RE: Comparing Eli to Brees, Brady, Rivers, and Ben is foolish.  
bw in dc : 2/11/2019 1:43 pm : link
In comment 14293381 Zeke's Alibi said:
Quote:
Eli was never on Brees or Brady's level. Brees and Brady are also lunatics about health and nutrition. That still hasn't stopped Brees arm from being an issue. He mitigates this though because of his ability in the short and intermediate game.

Rivers is still playing at a high level, but I'd argue Ben isn't. His play has taken a noticeable step back in the last few years and it has been mitigated because the Steelers have surrounded him with so much talent on the offensive side of the ball. I wouldn't be suprised if they are a total dumpster fire next year.


FWIW, Roethlisberger's QBR has improved the last three years. And this year his QBR was high second highest ever, since 2007. He threw the most TDs in his career.

He had a very good year without the ball all-around RB in the game, and with the very good replacement RB going down in the last quarter of the season.

BR is a great, great player.
RE: There..  
giantstock : 2/11/2019 1:53 pm : link
In comment 14293135 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:

Solder was 29 when we signed him and people act as if he's going to have to retire shortly.

In lineman terms, Solder is about average age. Why can't he be here for several years?


The question isn't now-- it's when do you expect the Gmen to be a title threat? Not last year. Not this upcoming year.

Probably not in in 2020 unless they get a QB otherwise they are a QB short.

SO more than likely at best when he is 32 but possibly he is 33 when we get a contender. You mean spending such huge bucks all these years makes even an iota of sense fora team we ll all know was hopeless in 2018 and 2019 and a good chance to not be contender in 2020?

How much better off are we going 3-13 with Flowers vs 5-11 with solder? and with SOlder we seem to be headed for maybe around 7-9 if being a bit optimistic?
Using.  
FatMan in Charlotte : 2/11/2019 1:58 pm : link
that logic - you wouldn't sign any decent FA's when the team is bad.

Which likely keeps ensuring you stay bad.

Awesome.
RE: Using.  
giantstock : 2/11/2019 2:40 pm : link
In comment 14293414 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
that logic - you wouldn't sign any decent FA's when the team is bad.

Which likely keeps ensuring you stay bad.

Awesome.


No-- you go young instead.

Last year for example you go with Hubbard and Fulton. TWO YOUNG PLAYERS THAT WERE CONSIDered above Average at some level. Then you would have draft Braden Smith.

Or you make small moves until you get lots of spots covered. Right now we HAVE LOTS OF HOLES. More than the actual player it's the move made by the GM not understanding that his team sucked was the big problem. And not going two-for-one instead overpaying for one LT that will most likely start to decline when GMEN start to contend.

Or when you are 3-13 you realize you are bad and wait wait until you get to6-10 or better
RE: There..  
christian : 2/11/2019 3:00 pm : link
In comment 14293135 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
was near universal scorn for not signing Andrew Whitworth, thinking they could get a few years out of him. He's 37 years old and just played in the SB.

Solder was 29 when we signed him and people act as if he's going to have to retire shortly.

In lineman terms, Solder is about average age. Why can't he be here for several years?


FMiC -- that's one of three factors 1) cost 2) age 3) quality of play.

Solder has historically been a markedly less good player, getting double the guaranteed money as Whitworth.

I also don't know if I agree the 8,9,10 year of a career for a lineman is among any average. I know there are outliers, but that assertion seems off to me.
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