this season?
I think we will finally know how DG feels about Eli....
Cut him, save 17M, and just about guarantee a high pick next season....
Or, does he do the unthinkable?
Finally get an OL, and pin our hopes on SB, OBj, and Eli?
There is no way this defense can be fixed in one year, but there is a chance the offense can.....
To Eli or not to Eli, that is the question.....
Again - Why does focusing on rebuilding a unit that had been terrible several years running constitute going all in with Eli?
I personally don't think it meant he was "All In" on Eli. He knows Eli needed those building blocks to be successful. We have beaten his lack of mobility and happy feet thing to death. So, DG knew we needed to fix those issues around Eli to be successful. He also knew he would need to do the same thing for a rookie QB to be successful. So, either way (with or without Eli) DG was going to make those moves.
The others moves were for younger players or with easier exits.
Giving that much guaranteed money to a guy at 30, 31, and 32 who was never an above average player is the one geniune mistake that felt like it was geared toward win-now.
It's likely that Solder will be the starting LT for at least two more seasons. I wouldn't call signing a player for 3 years a win now move. Signing Solder would allow the Giants to focus on the other positions along the line while drafting/signing a player to develop behind him and hopefully take over for him.
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The incongruous move with the balance of the offseason was Solder.
The others moves were for younger players or with easier exits.
Giving that much guaranteed money to a guy at 30, 31, and 32 who was never an above average player is the one geniune mistake that felt like it was geared toward win-now.
It's likely that Solder will be the starting LT for at least two more seasons. I wouldn't call signing a player for 3 years a win now move. Signing Solder would allow the Giants to focus on the other positions along the line while drafting/signing a player to develop behind him and hopefully take over for him.
If signing a guy going into his 8th NFL season to what was at the time a record contract at his position isn't a win-now move, then honestly what is?
You're not giving a guy 35M guaranteed with cap hits of 10, 17, and 17 to placehold. You're paying that for him to produce immediately.
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In comment 14292752 christian said:
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The incongruous move with the balance of the offseason was Solder.
The others moves were for younger players or with easier exits.
Giving that much guaranteed money to a guy at 30, 31, and 32 who was never an above average player is the one geniune mistake that felt like it was geared toward win-now.
It's likely that Solder will be the starting LT for at least two more seasons. I wouldn't call signing a player for 3 years a win now move. Signing Solder would allow the Giants to focus on the other positions along the line while drafting/signing a player to develop behind him and hopefully take over for him.
If signing a guy going into his 8th NFL season to what was at the time a record contract at his position isn't a win-now move, then honestly what is?
You're not giving a guy 35M guaranteed with cap hits of 10, 17, and 17 to placehold. You're paying that for him to produce immediately.
LT ain’t a lot different than QB these days. They’re not exactly growing on trees. Kirk Cousins just got a historical contract too at his position. Is it because he was worth it, or is it because the market dictated it.
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In comment 14292752 christian said:
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The incongruous move with the balance of the offseason was Solder.
The others moves were for younger players or with easier exits.
Giving that much guaranteed money to a guy at 30, 31, and 32 who was never an above average player is the one geniune mistake that felt like it was geared toward win-now.
It's likely that Solder will be the starting LT for at least two more seasons. I wouldn't call signing a player for 3 years a win now move. Signing Solder would allow the Giants to focus on the other positions along the line while drafting/signing a player to develop behind him and hopefully take over for him.
If signing a guy going into his 8th NFL season to what was at the time a record contract at his position isn't a win-now move, then honestly what is?
You're not giving a guy 35M guaranteed with cap hits of 10, 17, and 17 to placehold. You're paying that for him to produce immediately.
Any veteran free agent signing is for them to produce immediately. It is very rare for good LT's to hit free agency. When they do they are going to get paid.
LT ain’t a lot different than QB these days. They’re not exactly growing on trees. Kirk Cousins just got a historical contract too at his position. Is it because he was worth it, or is it because the market dictated it.
Great example Britt. Is Kirk Cousins the best QB in the NFL? Did he deserve to be the highest paid?
You're not giving a guy 35M guaranteed with cap hits of 10, 17, and 17 to placehold. You're paying that for him to produce immediately.
I don't know what you guys wanted. Paying nobody and waiting until Eli retired to start spending money again? It isn't a "we are going to suck" or a "we are winning the Super Bowl" mentality that teams take. NFL teams don't tank, mainly because the reward just isn't there for tanking.
Look at 2016. We spent $200M on the defense. Using the logic of many here, that wasn't going "all-in" with Eli.
It was meant to put building blocks in place for the D, a unit that had been historically bad. Again - with the goal of getting good players to make the team better. That plan actually paid short term dividends, then crashed and burned.
Based on this subjective "win now" argument, it is almost like a lot of you don't think we should sign good players, and if we do, it signals a SB or bust plan. I don't get it.
If Shurmur doesn’t like Lock, the Giants might as well trade out, get extra picks, and get Jones in late first, early second. Jones is probably the best system fit, but if they don’t like Jones, wait a year. In another year, the warts on the top 2020 QBs will show up.
My God I hope they don'tog with a "system fit"." What happens when he gets fired?
But my point, that Jay responded to, is whether it was a win-now motivated move or not. I don't think there is a very intellectually honest argument based on the age and cost of the player it wasn't.
As for the value and wisdom of the move. It's been debated plenty here; just because he's the best player available doesn't mean you have to sign him to an outrageous contract. If the supply sucks, wait. Again, unless you are focused on winning now.
Don't forget -- Gettleman and Shurmur didn't go into the season thinking Flowers was worthless, they thought he was out of position. Keeping him at LT, and eventually having to replace him with Wheeler, at left tackle wouldn't have been some wild stretch, it happened 30 feet away.
There were many alternatives; invest that money at center where there were good players, invest it at right guard where there were better players than Omameh, be patient like the Pats and trade for Trent Brown, or hold onto the money and let it roll over.
Look at 2016. We spent $200M on the defense.
The focal points in that offseason were young vets all going into their 5th NFL seasons at 27 or younger -- and truth be told those absolutely were win now moves.
The owner literally told the GM go fix this right now or else.
But my point, that Jay responded to, is whether it was a win-now motivated move or not. I don't think there is a very intellectually honest argument based on the age and cost of the player it wasn't.
As for the value and wisdom of the move. It's been debated plenty here; just because he's the best player available doesn't mean you have to sign him to an outrageous contract. If the supply sucks, wait. Again, unless you are focused on winning now.
Don't forget -- Gettleman and Shurmur didn't go into the season thinking Flowers was worthless, they thought he was out of position. Keeping him at LT, and eventually having to replace him with Wheeler, at left tackle wouldn't have been some wild stretch, it happened 30 feet away.
There were many alternatives; invest that money at center where there were good players, invest it at right guard where there were better players than Omameh, be patient like the Pats and trade for Trent Brown, or hold onto the money and let it roll over.
Honestly I think the Giants didn't expect much from Flowers but didn't have any other good options besides Wheeler. The Giants had to rebuild an entire offensive line in one offseason. There is almost no way that they were going to be able to do that especially since they weren't loaded with cap space. The Giants had little choice but to hope that Flowers would rebound at a new position while knowing that Wheeler could be an option in the likely event that Flowers doesn't work out.
So which is it...
You're wasting your time with these guys -- they are thick.
You're wasting your time. THey're too thick. Dg was quoted that he made moves to win now but they bury their heads in the sand or live in fantasy-land and try to twist what he said to fit their own narrative.
And the absurdity of the justification of the SOldier pickup. DO you think they have any clue that if the GMne signed norwell that they probably would have been stuck with Flowers? And do you think you can explain to any of them that now we got soldier we still didn't win in 2018 and more than likely won;t win in 2019? Isn;t it great that we got for 2018 and 2019 and he'l help lead us to 5-11 type records as he ages beyond 30 fro a rebuilding team?
ANd do you think they understand that when you traded for Ogelltree that doesn;t help your ability to rebuild when you trade him for draft picks and his salary is way over-priced?
And do you think they understand that after you make a series of bad moves with Solder, Ogeltree and Stewart and you could have used Omameh money and SOldier money and stewart money to get better players mostly YOUNGER PLAYERS -- that you don't ignore it just because later on DG started dumping other roster spots?
And how they always look to change the narrative on the Barkley pick. Most of us that wanted a QB are happy with Barkley PROVIDED THAT A QB COMES IN THE NEAR FUTURE. They continually try to push a false narrative on this subject.
Then when you suggest that we want a QB as soon as possible to optimize Barkley you get these lunatics exaggerating your posts trying to change your post from "we need to move quick to optimize Barkley" to "you think Barkley only has 3 years."
The blind followers to DG and the acceptance of many fans to failure is just so mind-boggling. Any dart they can throw to provide an excuse, they'll gladly do it without shame.
But my point, that Jay responded to, is whether it was a win-now motivated move or not. I don't think there is a very intellectually honest argument based on the age and cost of the player it wasn't.
As for the value and wisdom of the move. It's been debated plenty here; just because he's the best player available doesn't mean you have to sign him to an outrageous contract. If the supply sucks, wait. Again, unless you are focused on winning now.
Don't forget -- Gettleman and Shurmur didn't go into the season thinking Flowers was worthless, they thought he was out of position. Keeping him at LT, and eventually having to replace him with Wheeler, at left tackle wouldn't have been some wild stretch, it happened 30 feet away.
There were many alternatives; invest that money at center where there were good players, invest it at right guard where there were better players than Omameh, be patient like the Pats and trade for Trent Brown, or hold onto the money and let it roll over.
But you are assuming it was a win now move to sign Solder. I don't see it that way at all. I see it as a "Holy shit this line sucks and I need to address it ASAFP." I mean they went after Norwell first which seemed like the right move, but he ended up not even grading out all that well this year, at least initially. The next best FA OL available was Solder. He got paid what the market dictated, and frankly, we had no choice but to sign him. And he got sucked into a no win situation with a crappy OL, a BRAND new offense and coaching staff, and a rookie starting right next to him. Not sure what we all expected but it's pretty obvious in hindsight why he struggled the first half of the season. And honestly, I thought he looked pretty good the second half of the year and I think we are set on the left side now for a while.
He also saw a LB corps that had been neglected for years and he did what? traded for Ogletree.
No matter how many "cracks" I take , the idea DG went "all-in" doesn't get any closer to being the truth.
You are so fucking absurd that you've had to imagine a conspiracy theory about Eli being kept as a condition for hiring a GM and coach just to fit the ridiculous narrative.
DG's moves have been to try and improve the team. That's really the only crack one need to take at this. It isn't rocket science and it sure as fuck isn't a conspiracy.
So the two-time SB MVP, who all key constituents at Jints Central fawn over, was just going to be a passenger on this team in 2018? The QB position was suddenly just another cog on the team now, right? How interesting...
After the Eli Five - Mara, Accorsi, Gettleman, Shurmur, and Shula - had their highly anticipated film session watching Eli play, they all came out tripping over themselves in euphoria telling us how Eli still had it. Like a group of A cappella singers, they all sang the same tune - Eli’s arm looked great, he could still make all the throws, and their was plenty of gas in the tank. Sorry, but that was an all-in declaration.
On top of that, OBJ was healthy with a new contract, Engram was healthy, Shepherd was healthy, a new generational RB was here to spell the running game, and a trio of new olinemen were here to finally provide pass protection and open holes. Hell, the Giants were a popular dark horse pick with many well recognized media types/“experts”...
And what are they about to do in a few weeks? Double down on the all-in and bring Eli back.
Many here know the outcome will likely be similar to this year, maybe a few Ws better, but I just get the sense they want another chance to give Eli that special send off. They see the success of Brady and Brees and ask themselves the question - why not Eli, too?
You are so fucking gone, you don't even know it.
Or worse yet, you do know it and still put those ridiculous posts on here.
I liked it better when you were regaling the board on how to win, Dan Snyder style. Those were fun days. almost as good as the days the Giants were winning and you stayed off the board crying in your Redskins blanket.....
So the two-time SB MVP, who all key constituents at Jints Central fawn over, was just going to be a passenger on this team in 2018? The QB position was suddenly just another cog on the team now, right? How interesting...
After the Eli Five - Mara, Accorsi, Gettleman, Shurmur, and Shula - had their highly anticipated film session watching Eli play, they all came out tripping over themselves in euphoria telling us how Eli still had it. Like a group of A cappella singers, they all sang the same tune - Eli’s arm looked great, he could still make all the throws, and their was plenty of gas in the tank. Sorry, but that was an all-in declaration.
On top of that, OBJ was healthy with a new contract, Engram was healthy, Shepherd was healthy, a new generational RB was here to spell the running game, and a trio of new olinemen were here to finally provide pass protection and open holes. Hell, the Giants were a popular dark horse pick with many well recognized media types/“experts”...
And what are they about to do in a few weeks? Double down on the all-in and bring Eli back.
Many here know the outcome will likely be similar to this year, maybe a few Ws better, but I just get the sense they want another chance to give Eli that special send off. They see the success of Brady and Brees and ask themselves the question - why not Eli, too?
Wow... lol
I don't know where even to start here... LOL, Holy CRAP dude.
OK I'll start here, it's not just Brees and Brady, it's also Rivers and Roethlisberger still playing at a high level. So use logic here for a minute... Pick one scenario:
1) We just happened to get saddled with the only QB of the group that fell off a cliff.
2) All have diminished to some degree but 4 are playing in established offenses with teams that didn't fall apart around them due to a full decade of horrible drafting and actual mediocre blocking that didn't have their "generational talent" RB getting hit literally after 6 inches of receiving a handoff?
Look, Eli may or may not have dropped off at some level more than his contemporaries.... but how would you know that for sure based on what we are trotting out there in front of him, with more than 50% roster turnover and a brand new coaching staff and scheme?? I mean, SERIOUSLY - how do some people not have one iota of situational awareness here?? Rather it's some conspiracy (SERIOUSLY??) to keep Eli propped up back there at all costs by the FO? Are you hearing yourself here?
At the end 2017 season, Mara was embarrassed by the Eli benching. Granted he helped manipulate it, and then distanced himself like a coward, but he was unprepared for all of the fan and media negativity.
Mara fired Reese. Declares there is going to be an expansive GM search. Out of nowhere, Accorsi, who just happened to draft Eli, is brought in to conduct this so called expansive search.
In what seemed like only minutes, Accorsi tells Mara to hire Gettleman, a former right hand man of Accorsi who was there when Accorsi drafted Eli. And has claimed publicly how much he admires and loves Eli.
Accorsi and Gettleman then hire Shurmur, the hot QB guru who just made chicken salad out of Case Keenum.
Days later, all agree, interestingly, that Eli is the QB to continue leading the Giants.
Now, you and others can ignore all of the above as mere coincidence, but I think it all screams that Mara had a plan to keep Eli, and wanted to make hires that largely supported that view...
I don't subscribe to the idea you ever have to do "something."
Flowers to Wheeler wasn't intolerable to Gettleman on the right side, I don't know why it would've been such a tragedy on the left.
There are a number of investments along the offensive line that would have been less costly, and more in tune with Gettleman's other acquisitions, that were hedged and cautious.
That's why I am saying the Solder acquisition was incongruous with his other moves and likely the worst of them.
Solder was 29 when we signed him and people act as if he's going to have to retire shortly.
In lineman terms, Solder is about average age. Why can't he be here for several years?
Unfortunately, this might be exactly what happened.
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1) We just happened to get saddled with the only QB of the group that fell off a cliff.
Unfortunately, this might be exactly what happened.
Yeah the second option is much more logical and tangible in my view. But people gonna believe what they gonna believe... lol
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1) We just happened to get saddled with the only QB of the group that fell off a cliff.
Unfortunately, this might be exactly what happened.
Yeah the second option is much more logical and tangible in my view. But people gonna believe what they gonna believe... lol
I think it's a combination: The terrible roster management led to Eli's play falling off, and it's questionable whether it could be brought back at this time of his career.
There was a thread a while back when people were speculating about the moment Eli's decline became noticeable. Many pointed out to vicious hit he took against Washington in week 3 of 2016, thanks in part by some wonderful turnstile blocking by John Jerry I believe.
It's similar to what happened to Drew Brees this past season when he took a huge in the latter half of the season: https://twitter.com/SharpFootball/status/1087563793239035904?s=19
I think with really strong protection, Eli could probably have a solid 2019, however. It's just really risky going beyond that though, since few QBs play well past age 38.
I think it's a combination: The terrible roster management led to Eli's play falling off, and it's questionable whether it could be brought back at this time of his career.
There was a thread a while back when people were speculating about the moment Eli's decline became noticeable. Many pointed out to vicious hit he took against Washington in week 3 of 2016, thanks in part by some wonderful turnstile blocking by John Jerry I believe.
It's similar to what happened to Drew Brees this past season when he took a huge in the latter half of the season: https://twitter.com/SharpFootball/status/1087563793239035904?s=19
I think with really strong protection, Eli could probably have a solid 2019, however. It's just really risky going beyond that though, since few QBs play well past age 38.
Well that's actually a reasonable assessment that's tougher to argue. I remember that hit, and clearly he looked to have happy feet in the first half of this season. Still, he seemed to progress as the year went on and the whole offense became more comfortable with each other and Shurmur's system, so I guess I remain more optimistic then some others. I still get the impression that he can play at a high level with better blocking, and not just pass blocking but run blocking.
Rivers is still playing at a high level, but I'd argue Ben isn't. His play has taken a noticeable step back in the last few years and it has been mitigated because the Steelers have surrounded him with so much talent on the offensive side of the ball. I wouldn't be suprised if they are a total dumpster fire next year.
Yup, and there's definitely a faction of Steelers fans who are pushing a transition away from Ben soon (though not as large as Eli's).
Rivers is an interesting case. By all accounts, they are going to re-sign/extend him at the end of next season. Obviously, it's wait-and-see for how he does in 2019, but I can envision him falling off hard as he hits age 38 and 39, as his physical gifts were never that great to begin with.
Rivers is still playing at a high level, but I'd argue Ben isn't. His play has taken a noticeable step back in the last few years and it has been mitigated because the Steelers have surrounded him with so much talent on the offensive side of the ball. I wouldn't be suprised if they are a total dumpster fire next year.
FWIW, Roethlisberger's QBR has improved the last three years. And this year his QBR was high second highest ever, since 2007. He threw the most TDs in his career.
He had a very good year without the ball all-around RB in the game, and with the very good replacement RB going down in the last quarter of the season.
BR is a great, great player.
Solder was 29 when we signed him and people act as if he's going to have to retire shortly.
In lineman terms, Solder is about average age. Why can't he be here for several years?
The question isn't now-- it's when do you expect the Gmen to be a title threat? Not last year. Not this upcoming year.
Probably not in in 2020 unless they get a QB otherwise they are a QB short.
SO more than likely at best when he is 32 but possibly he is 33 when we get a contender. You mean spending such huge bucks all these years makes even an iota of sense fora team we ll all know was hopeless in 2018 and 2019 and a good chance to not be contender in 2020?
How much better off are we going 3-13 with Flowers vs 5-11 with solder? and with SOlder we seem to be headed for maybe around 7-9 if being a bit optimistic?
Which likely keeps ensuring you stay bad.
Awesome.
Which likely keeps ensuring you stay bad.
Awesome.
No-- you go young instead.
Last year for example you go with Hubbard and Fulton. TWO YOUNG PLAYERS THAT WERE CONSIDered above Average at some level. Then you would have draft Braden Smith.
Or you make small moves until you get lots of spots covered. Right now we HAVE LOTS OF HOLES. More than the actual player it's the move made by the GM not understanding that his team sucked was the big problem. And not going two-for-one instead overpaying for one LT that will most likely start to decline when GMEN start to contend.
Or when you are 3-13 you realize you are bad and wait wait until you get to6-10 or better
Solder was 29 when we signed him and people act as if he's going to have to retire shortly.
In lineman terms, Solder is about average age. Why can't he be here for several years?
FMiC -- that's one of three factors 1) cost 2) age 3) quality of play.
Solder has historically been a markedly less good player, getting double the guaranteed money as Whitworth.
I also don't know if I agree the 8,9,10 year of a career for a lineman is among any average. I know there are outliers, but that assertion seems off to me.