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Quinnen Williams or Ed Oliver?

Jerry K : 2/11/2019 8:52 am
Link: an analysis from the Draft Network. Any downside to either of these?
https://thedraftnetwork.com/2018/10/22/prospect-battle-royale-ed-oliver-vs-quinnen-williams/ - ( New Window )
I wouldnít group them together  
Ssanders9816 : 2/11/2019 8:57 am : link
Williams Is a superior player
Ed Oliver had been  
tyrik13 : 2/11/2019 9:42 am : link
Performing at a high level for a lot longer than Q. Williams has been. Ed was a starter day one at Houston. Williams didnít crack the lineup until this year. If I had to pick, Iíd take the more established and more polished Ed Oliver
And no, i  
tyrik13 : 2/11/2019 9:43 am : link
Didnít look at the article either. I went off what Iíve seen over the past few years
gotta wait for ...  
Mike in St. Louis : 2/11/2019 10:27 am : link
the Wunderlich scores...
They are two different players.  
Zeke's Alibi : 2/11/2019 10:51 am : link
Quinnen is less risky, but I don't think he offers the same ceiling that Oliver does. What Oliver brings is also much more valuable than what Williams does, that is if it transfers to the next level.
Wait until after the combine  
GeorgeAdams33 : 2/11/2019 10:55 am : link
I've read a few reports that say many scouts will be shocked at how small Oliver really is and that he might be over matched in the pros if he is expected to be a down lineman on every snap. Someone even mentioned of move to ILB or MLB like Corey Widmer did for us in the 90's. I do wonder with Bettcher's penchant for versatility in players so that he can play hybrid schemes that are tough to distinguish and get blocked up if a guy like this might be great for us.
RE: Wait until after the combine  
Zeke's Alibi : 2/11/2019 11:03 am : link
In comment 14293151 GeorgeAdams33 said:
Quote:
I've read a few reports that say many scouts will be shocked at how small Oliver really is and that he might be over matched in the pros if he is expected to be a down lineman on every snap. Someone even mentioned of move to ILB or MLB like Corey Widmer did for us in the 90's. I do wonder with Bettcher's penchant for versatility in players so that he can play hybrid schemes that are tough to distinguish and get blocked up if a guy like this might be great for us.


He may be smaller than ideal, but his strength numbers are pretty damn good for a defensive lineman. I'm pretty sure Oliver and Houston liked him playing at 280 to maximize his explosiveness. It will be interesting how he attacks this at combine, I think if he gets to 290 and blows away the drills he'll be fine.
In fact...  
GeorgeAdams33 : 2/11/2019 11:03 am : link
I just went to youtube to watch him again and one of the commentators just said that Oliver is about 275 lbs. , regardless of what he is listed at. At 6-2 he does look to have fairly long arms so I wonder if he could be an edge guy in the pros.
I see him listed at  
GeorgeAdams33 : 2/11/2019 11:10 am : link
6'-2" 290 lbs. already. I don't believe that he can get much bigger than he already is. If he's been trying to gain weight and this is all he can do I'd rather see him trim down, change positions, and take advantage of his great speed, strength, hand work, and leverage. I think that he can be like a wild card in our defense. He could possibly play the edge with his hand in the dirt as a DE or stand up and play OLB, he could get some snaps as a 3 technique and he could back off the line, stand up and play like a blitzing ILB. He also has sideline to sideline speed, so freeing him up could be good thing.
Typically I would draft the heavier  
idiotsavant : 2/11/2019 11:46 am : link
But, as some of you have mentioned, betcher can really use a player like Oliver.

That said, I have not actually looked at eithers stats or what have you.

That said, there are plentiful DLs this draft. Maybe Oliver plus (also) a giant NT type in the 4th or 5th round.

In comparison between Oliver and an "olb slash 4/3 DE type"....few have the low power and fuller or more legit interior gap ability of an Oliver, that's rare, probably, when, paired with quicks and playmaking, as opposed to edge plus some interior value situationally. In other words:

Inside ability plus outside may be worth more in Betcher than pure outside plus a narrowed version of inside (more blitz like - less leverage). Maybe...it depends.
Not that we'll have our choice but...  
Jerry K : 2/11/2019 11:57 am : link
I'm getting the impression that Oliver's ceiling may be higher though Williams is the safer pick. The combine will be important, especially for Oliver (because of questions about his size).

I read somewhere recently that Aaron Donald plays quite a bit below his listed weight.
BTW  
Jerry K : 2/11/2019 11:58 am : link
The link I posted has a fair amount of video on each player.
RE: Wait until after the combine  
widmerseyebrow : 2/11/2019 12:07 pm : link
In comment 14293151 GeorgeAdams33 said:
Quote:
I've read a few reports that say many scouts will be shocked at how small Oliver really is and that he might be over matched in the pros if he is expected to be a down lineman on every snap. Someone even mentioned of move to ILB or MLB like Corey Widmer did for us in the 90's. I do wonder with Bettcher's penchant for versatility in players so that he can play hybrid schemes that are tough to distinguish and get blocked up if a guy like this might be great for us.


I don't think you can make that position switch in today's NFL. The MLB almost needs to cover first, defend the run second.
There's a knock against Q Williams - that he takes plays off. Has  
Ira : 2/11/2019 12:12 pm : link
anyone else heard that? Is it legit?
GeorgeAdams  
mittenedman : 2/11/2019 12:22 pm : link
Im hearing the same RE: Oliver. Played at under 280 this year. Some are actuallly projecting him as an ILB.
If a Coach/GM moves Oliver to ILB  
AcesUp : 2/11/2019 12:48 pm : link
He should be fired immediately. Why would you take away his best asset which is his explosion off the snap, leverage and ability to split the gap? For our purposes size doesn't really matter, 270-290 is fine as an iDL in this scheme. He's either playing 3tech or 4i where he's lined up on the inside shoulder of the OT (loosely being referred to as the 5 here). He's not anchoring. I'd be more concerned with his size if we were a traditional 4-3, not with what he'd be asked to do here and the size of the players around him. Wynn played fine there at 270 and he isn't nearly as strong or explosive as Oliver. The entire appeal of taking an Oliver is that it's difficult to find players with elite interior pass rush potential, which he has. And it's a position and skillset which can shine in this system. The production is a real question, the numbers don't suggest that potential, however there are many that see it on his tape. I'd stop focusing on size/position but look at the tape if you want to disqualify him at 6.
Itís funny but watching Oliver  
GoDeep13 : 2/11/2019 1:47 pm : link
I keep thinking ďheíd be a hell of a 3-4 OLBĒ just because his body and strengths remind me a lot of James Harrison. I donít see him playing with his hand down in the NFL. He looks noticeably small stature wise when I watch his tape.
Ed Oliver probably should not have played NT at HOU  
Matt G : 2/11/2019 2:35 pm : link
But the idea of moving him to ILB is pretty silly, imho. The game has changed so much since the 1990s

Iím gonna throw this out  
tyrik13 : 2/11/2019 2:41 pm : link
There just for size comparison sake, but yíall do know Aaron Donald is an undersized DL as well right? He plays at about 290
Excuse me  
tyrik13 : 2/11/2019 2:45 pm : link
Itís closer to 295 -297
If you look at Darnold's muscle density at Pitt and Oliver's now it  
Zeke's Alibi : 2/11/2019 2:47 pm : link
is very similar. Darnold looks like he could compete in Mr. Olympia these days though. The type of weightlifting numbers that Oliver puts up I wouldn't be suprised if he ends up on the same path once his bone density matures a bit with a proper NFL diet and PED schedule.
It might be somewhat semantic and roster unit name centric  
idiotsavant : 2/11/2019 3:36 pm : link
The weight thing.

For example, Wynn is listed as a DL in this, whereas his weight may look more like an OLB weight given a betcher system. I would maybe list Wynn as 4th olb ...even when you know he will most often by somewhere on or very near the DL at snap.

Oliver, you probably need to add one nose type with or without adding an Oliver, and expect the packages to vary a lot.

Oliver would be a 3/4 DE in name.
Williams is a 'twitchier' player with better get off imo.  
Torrag : 2/11/2019 3:43 pm : link
Their play styles differ though to an extent and While I'd prefer Williams I'd be happy with either guy. The DL depth in this class isn't a scenario like the Willy Jo pick years ago.
So. First and 10 at their 20  
idiotsavant : 2/11/2019 3:47 pm : link
It would be:

Oliver, Tomlinson, Hill (DL)

Wynn,pick Rd2,Carter, Rd 3 pick(lbs)

3rd and 20

Wynn, Oliver, Edwards, Hill
Carter........
,..,...................Ogletree,

Safety,

CB x3


Safety

If you look at Eric's roster  
idiotsavant : 2/11/2019 3:59 pm : link
Hill at 300+ is listed as 3/4 DE as are the tweener and even 'light' Wynn at 260.

It's really 3 different types listed as 1.

Wynn may be an olb for us in 3+1 and 3+2 looks (goes to line)

Oliver would be a "3/4 DE" (one of our strongest apparently)and add an early - mid round big to back up Tomlinson. There will be value for sure
And also  
idiotsavant : 2/11/2019 4:04 pm : link
I mean.
Would not be surprised if they target a  
idiotsavant : 2/11/2019 4:22 pm : link
Replacement for ogletree (a quicker true pass defending lb) and a pass defending safety of some kind.

But if you can get more pass pressure from the front 3 that's huge.
RE: Ed Oliver had been  
DavidinBMNY : 2/11/2019 6:28 pm : link
In comment 14293014 tyrik13 said:
Quote:
Performing at a high level for a lot longer than Q. Williams has been. Ed was a starter day one at Houston. Williams didnít crack the lineup until this year. If I had to pick, Iíd take the more established and more polished Ed Oliver
Ditto. Draftniks love Williams but I expect NFL teams love Oliver and he actually might go #1 even ahead of Bosa. I expect him to dominate the combine.
Some scouts think Oliver may outperform Donald  
BlueLou'sBack : 2/12/2019 12:23 am : link
at his combine, which would be ridiculous. Like he's gonna run a 4.60 40 at 275 lbs.

One of my fantasy drafts in my head is that we take Oliver at 6, and then Dexter Lawrence at 37. It's not an impossible scenario.

Whoa baby, that's a DL rotation together with Tomlinson and BJ Hill, especially if McIntosh pans out.
That's the kick-ass spirit blue  
idiotsavant : 2/12/2019 3:42 pm : link
And move Kerry Wynn to OLB.

Sell the farm for an additional 2nd rounder.
Echo the combine people  
NoGainDayne : 2/12/2019 3:59 pm : link
obviously people are more excited about Williams because he looked dominant in the SEC. Much safer bet.

But you watch Oliver and he's a guy that could clearly have a legendary size/speed combine. And he's no slouch in on the field play too and he was constantly doubled.

No way Williams makes it out of the top 5 IMO and I wouldn't advocate trading up for him so not really relevant for the Giants.

Even though I've seen some mocks put Oliver in the teens, I wouldn't be upset if he was the pick at 6 as of right now. But that's why the combine is important, it isn't everything but if he comes in slower and doesn't display the quicks in testing that absolutely should push him down.
It's madness how many DL were in top 20 early best overall lists  
idiotsavant : 2/12/2019 4:41 pm : link
QB and wr hype will push / displace some of those down into rd 2.

So bluelou has a point.

DL
DL
ILB
OLB
FS
Center
FS
G
TE
Lance Zierlein suggested Oliver to ILB  
GeorgeAdams33 : 2/15/2019 6:05 pm : link
I think that he could move all around the front on or off the line, standing or with his hand in the dirt. He could be a great DT for all we know, like a modern day John Mendenhall, but his versatility is what might make him attractive to Bettcher. Don't count out the need for a difference maker on the Defense.
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