Performing at a high level for a lot longer than Q. Williams has been. Ed was a starter day one at Houston. Williams didn’t crack the lineup until this year. If I had to pick, I’d take the more established and more polished Ed Oliver
Quinnen is less risky, but I don't think he offers the same ceiling that Oliver does. What Oliver brings is also much more valuable than what Williams does, that is if it transfers to the next level.
I've read a few reports that say many scouts will be shocked at how small Oliver really is and that he might be over matched in the pros if he is expected to be a down lineman on every snap. Someone even mentioned of move to ILB or MLB like Corey Widmer did for us in the 90's. I do wonder with Bettcher's penchant for versatility in players so that he can play hybrid schemes that are tough to distinguish and get blocked up if a guy like this might be great for us.
I've read a few reports that say many scouts will be shocked at how small Oliver really is and that he might be over matched in the pros if he is expected to be a down lineman on every snap. Someone even mentioned of move to ILB or MLB like Corey Widmer did for us in the 90's. I do wonder with Bettcher's penchant for versatility in players so that he can play hybrid schemes that are tough to distinguish and get blocked up if a guy like this might be great for us.
He may be smaller than ideal, but his strength numbers are pretty damn good for a defensive lineman. I'm pretty sure Oliver and Houston liked him playing at 280 to maximize his explosiveness. It will be interesting how he attacks this at combine, I think if he gets to 290 and blows away the drills he'll be fine.
I just went to youtube to watch him again and one of the commentators just said that Oliver is about 275 lbs. , regardless of what he is listed at. At 6-2 he does look to have fairly long arms so I wonder if he could be an edge guy in the pros.
6'-2" 290 lbs. already. I don't believe that he can get much bigger than he already is. If he's been trying to gain weight and this is all he can do I'd rather see him trim down, change positions, and take advantage of his great speed, strength, hand work, and leverage. I think that he can be like a wild card in our defense. He could possibly play the edge with his hand in the dirt as a DE or stand up and play OLB, he could get some snaps as a 3 technique and he could back off the line, stand up and play like a blitzing ILB. He also has sideline to sideline speed, so freeing him up could be good thing.
But, as some of you have mentioned, betcher can really use a player like Oliver.
That said, I have not actually looked at eithers stats or what have you.
That said, there are plentiful DLs this draft. Maybe Oliver plus (also) a giant NT type in the 4th or 5th round.
In comparison between Oliver and an "olb slash 4/3 DE type"....few have the low power and fuller or more legit interior gap ability of an Oliver, that's rare, probably, when, paired with quicks and playmaking, as opposed to edge plus some interior value situationally. In other words:
Inside ability plus outside may be worth more in Betcher than pure outside plus a narrowed version of inside (more blitz like - less leverage). Maybe...it depends.
I'm getting the impression that Oliver's ceiling may be higher though Williams is the safer pick. The combine will be important, especially for Oliver (because of questions about his size).
I read somewhere recently that Aaron Donald plays quite a bit below his listed weight.
I've read a few reports that say many scouts will be shocked at how small Oliver really is and that he might be over matched in the pros if he is expected to be a down lineman on every snap. Someone even mentioned of move to ILB or MLB like Corey Widmer did for us in the 90's. I do wonder with Bettcher's penchant for versatility in players so that he can play hybrid schemes that are tough to distinguish and get blocked up if a guy like this might be great for us.
I don't think you can make that position switch in today's NFL. The MLB almost needs to cover first, defend the run second.
There's a knock against Q Williams - that he takes plays off. Has Â
He should be fired immediately. Why would you take away his best asset which is his explosion off the snap, leverage and ability to split the gap? For our purposes size doesn't really matter, 270-290 is fine as an iDL in this scheme. He's either playing 3tech or 4i where he's lined up on the inside shoulder of the OT (loosely being referred to as the 5 here). He's not anchoring. I'd be more concerned with his size if we were a traditional 4-3, not with what he'd be asked to do here and the size of the players around him. Wynn played fine there at 270 and he isn't nearly as strong or explosive as Oliver. The entire appeal of taking an Oliver is that it's difficult to find players with elite interior pass rush potential, which he has. And it's a position and skillset which can shine in this system. The production is a real question, the numbers don't suggest that potential, however there are many that see it on his tape. I'd stop focusing on size/position but look at the tape if you want to disqualify him at 6.
I keep thinking “he’d be a hell of a 3-4 OLB” just because his body and strengths remind me a lot of James Harrison. I don’t see him playing with his hand down in the NFL. He looks noticeably small stature wise when I watch his tape.
Ed Oliver probably should not have played NT at HOU Â
is very similar. Darnold looks like he could compete in Mr. Olympia these days though. The type of weightlifting numbers that Oliver puts up I wouldn't be suprised if he ends up on the same path once his bone density matures a bit with a proper NFL diet and PED schedule.
It might be somewhat semantic and roster unit name centric Â
For example, Wynn is listed as a DL in this, whereas his weight may look more like an OLB weight given a betcher system. I would maybe list Wynn as 4th olb ...even when you know he will most often by somewhere on or very near the DL at snap.
Oliver, you probably need to add one nose type with or without adding an Oliver, and expect the packages to vary a lot.
Oliver would be a 3/4 DE in name.
Williams is a 'twitchier' player with better get off imo. Â
Their play styles differ though to an extent and While I'd prefer Williams I'd be happy with either guy. The DL depth in this class isn't a scenario like the Willy Jo pick years ago.
Performing at a high level for a lot longer than Q. Williams has been. Ed was a starter day one at Houston. Williams didn’t crack the lineup until this year. If I had to pick, I’d take the more established and more polished Ed Oliver
Ditto. Draftniks love Williams but I expect NFL teams love Oliver and he actually might go #1 even ahead of Bosa. I expect him to dominate the combine.
obviously people are more excited about Williams because he looked dominant in the SEC. Much safer bet.
But you watch Oliver and he's a guy that could clearly have a legendary size/speed combine. And he's no slouch in on the field play too and he was constantly doubled.
No way Williams makes it out of the top 5 IMO and I wouldn't advocate trading up for him so not really relevant for the Giants.
Even though I've seen some mocks put Oliver in the teens, I wouldn't be upset if he was the pick at 6 as of right now. But that's why the combine is important, it isn't everything but if he comes in slower and doesn't display the quicks in testing that absolutely should push him down.
It's madness how many DL were in top 20 early best overall lists Â
I think that he could move all around the front on or off the line, standing or with his hand in the dirt. He could be a great DT for all we know, like a modern day John Mendenhall, but his versatility is what might make him attractive to Bettcher. Don't count out the need for a difference maker on the Defense.
He may be smaller than ideal, but his strength numbers are pretty damn good for a defensive lineman. I'm pretty sure Oliver and Houston liked him playing at 280 to maximize his explosiveness. It will be interesting how he attacks this at combine, I think if he gets to 290 and blows away the drills he'll be fine.
That said, I have not actually looked at eithers stats or what have you.
That said, there are plentiful DLs this draft. Maybe Oliver plus (also) a giant NT type in the 4th or 5th round.
In comparison between Oliver and an "olb slash 4/3 DE type"....few have the low power and fuller or more legit interior gap ability of an Oliver, that's rare, probably, when, paired with quicks and playmaking, as opposed to edge plus some interior value situationally. In other words:
Inside ability plus outside may be worth more in Betcher than pure outside plus a narrowed version of inside (more blitz like - less leverage). Maybe...it depends.
I read somewhere recently that Aaron Donald plays quite a bit below his listed weight.
I don't think you can make that position switch in today's NFL. The MLB almost needs to cover first, defend the run second.
For example, Wynn is listed as a DL in this, whereas his weight may look more like an OLB weight given a betcher system. I would maybe list Wynn as 4th olb ...even when you know he will most often by somewhere on or very near the DL at snap.
Oliver, you probably need to add one nose type with or without adding an Oliver, and expect the packages to vary a lot.
Oliver would be a 3/4 DE in name.
Oliver, Tomlinson, Hill (DL)
Wynn,pick Rd2,Carter, Rd 3 pick(lbs)
3rd and 20
Wynn, Oliver, Edwards, Hill
Carter........
,..,...................Ogletree,
Safety,
CB x3
Safety
It's really 3 different types listed as 1.
Wynn may be an olb for us in 3+1 and 3+2 looks (goes to line)
Oliver would be a "3/4 DE" (one of our strongest apparently)and add an early - mid round big to back up Tomlinson. There will be value for sure
But if you can get more pass pressure from the front 3 that's huge.
One of my fantasy drafts in my head is that we take Oliver at 6, and then Dexter Lawrence at 37. It's not an impossible scenario.
Whoa baby, that's a DL rotation together with Tomlinson and BJ Hill, especially if McIntosh pans out.
Sell the farm for an additional 2nd rounder.
But you watch Oliver and he's a guy that could clearly have a legendary size/speed combine. And he's no slouch in on the field play too and he was constantly doubled.
No way Williams makes it out of the top 5 IMO and I wouldn't advocate trading up for him so not really relevant for the Giants.
Even though I've seen some mocks put Oliver in the teens, I wouldn't be upset if he was the pick at 6 as of right now. But that's why the combine is important, it isn't everything but if he comes in slower and doesn't display the quicks in testing that absolutely should push him down.
So bluelou has a point.
DL
DL
ILB
OLB
FS
Center
FS
G
TE