Combine is going to be huge for Kyler. If he measures well and isn't quite as tiny as I believe he is, I'd be okay taking a shot on him - at least the upside is there. I still think he'll have trouble staying on the field and will have other size-related struggles, but the talent is undeniable. The kid can sling the ball. He's not just a runner.
Still prefer Haskins, but if we're going QB and it's not the Dwayne Train, I'd just take a shot on Murray.
Daniel Jones worries me... I could see him being a lot like Tannehill. Won't suck, also won't be good enough to take the team to the next level.
Not big on Lock, either - I see way more Cutler than Mahomes.
Forget Grier.
And please, no Tyree Jackson - we've taken enough developmental QB's. Take a guy you fully intend on hitching your wagon to right after Eli.
1m
Kyler Murray will return $1.29 million of the $1.5 million signing bonus money the Oakland As gave him last year. He forfeits the remaining $3.16 million due March 1. The As will put him on the restricted list and retain Murrays rights, but they dont get a comp draft pick.
I'd do everything in their power to get as much money as possible. He really, really dicked them over.
They don't really have to "do" much; there is language in the contract that if he doesn't come to baseball camp, the signing bonus is forfeited.
I'm sure they'd rather have the player than the money, of course...
they should get his football contract too. I know it will never happen.
But EPIC screw job by Murray. You're going to see MLB teams tell players they wont be allowed to play another sport once the contract is signed.
It sucks for the A's, but it's not like they didn't know this could happen; they put language in the contract to protect themselves.
They probably figured that, though he could get more money overall with a football contract(s), he would be enticed by letting less overall money in baseball but not having his body beat up like it would be in football.
I'm a causal A's fan, so I'm bummed for them; they need reasons to get people in the seats, and he seemed just like what the doctor ordered
I'd do everything in their power to get as much money as possible. He really, really dicked them over.
How? They knew the risks in drafting him.
They probably figured since he is only 5 9 he had no shot at being an NFL 1st round pick. They gambled (which honestly was probably a good gamble) and lost.
he didn't screw anyone over. They signed him before the season started with language to protect themselves financially. Obviously they didn't think he'd be a Heisman winner, but they gambled fair and square and lost.
What's he supposed to do, not do what's best for him? The A's would, why shouldn't he?
I'd do everything in their power to get as much money as possible. He really, really dicked them over.
How? They knew the risks in drafting him.
No one knows the behind the door language. But I would wager good money there was assurances he would play basbeall when he signed the contract.
You watch now.... any contract signed will prevent players from playing another sport. If they dont agree to that, at least the team gets their pick back the following year.
I'd do everything in their power to get as much money as possible. He really, really dicked them over.
How? They knew the risks in drafting him.
No one knows the behind the door language. But I would wager good money there was assurances he would play basbeall when he signed the contract.
You watch now.... any contract signed will prevent players from playing another sport. If they dont agree to that, at least the team gets their pick back the following year.
So what? Isn't that their business then? I don't get why you think this was some massive screw job. Seems pretty cut and dried and if leagues are going to change up how they write contracts, that's on them. I also think this is fairly unprecedented as he's the only guy in the history of both leagues that has the opportunity to be drafted 1st round in each. That completely changes the money and isn't common at all.
This isn't something anyone should be mad at. A's knew the risks, sucks for them.
interest at #6, and I don't think the Giants will have any either.
And they shouldn't.
If Murray falls to the second round, which is where he belongs (or even later), then he's more interesting.
There is no such thing as "where he belongs". If he goes to the combine and and looks better than Mayfield in workouts, he is going in the first and maybe in the top 5.
He's not going Top 10, way too many questions. He has bottom third of round 1 written all over him. I'd work the phones once he got to around the point where it would cost us a 2020 2nd or 3rd and one of our 4s. He's a hard evaluation but worth the gamble there given the alternatives.
Non-Giants related but I think Belichick is on him sheerly off of curiosity and the professional challenge of shaping an offense around him.
There is no such thing as "where he belongs". If he goes to the combine and and looks better than Mayfield in workouts, he is going in the first and maybe in the top 5.
Sure there is. Now, it's certainly a subjective call, but scouts/front offices rank players all of the time by skills/metrics/upside/etc, and comp them to current and prior players.
I hate when any player signs a contract and wants out before honoring any or the entire of it.
He signed a contract to play for a team and didnt honor. Its 100% shitty.
Well no, there was language to protect themselves in case this happened, they clearly knew this was possible. While we don't know the exact terms we know enough to say that the A's absolutely knew the risks. I'm sure they would have loved it if he signed a deal that prevented going to another sport, but that didn't happened.
Old school or not Murray didn't break any rules. You are making it seem like he found some red tape that he took advantage of.
I hate when any player signs a contract and wants out before honoring any or the entire of it.
He signed a contract to play for a team and didnt honor. Its 100% shitty.
Well no, there was language to protect themselves in case this happened, they clearly knew this was possible. While we don't know the exact terms we know enough to say that the A's absolutely knew the risks. I'm sure they would have loved it if he signed a deal that prevented going to another sport, but that didn't happened.
Old school or not Murray didn't break any rules. You are making it seem like he found some red tape that he took advantage of.
No what I mean is he signed a contract to play for a team. Sure, they protected themselves $$$ wise, but thats not where they are getting screwed at. They just lost a valuable draft pick which they cannot get back.
If Murray had doubts, the contract should never have been signed. Or Murray should have told teams he wouldnt fully commit to baseball until football was over. Hell, Murray could have withdrew his name from the draft... played football - and if wasnt going to be a picked - he could have played another year at OU and been drafted again.
sorry I dont see it the same as most. But he signed a contract to a team and the team got screwed over by it. There is no compensation for them. Yes, there were risks, but those risks should have ended once his signature dried.
in the 2nd round because most teams thought he was going to play another sport professionally - I think it was baseball. He was a Giants linebacker for over 10 years. He, Brian Kelly, Harry Carson and LT were known as The Crunch Bunch.
There is no such thing as "where he belongs". If he goes to the combine and and looks better than Mayfield in workouts, he is going in the first and maybe in the top 5.
I think he could get a "Mayfield-bump". All of the 'experts' last year had Mayfield as the 3rd/4th best QB prospect heading into the draft due to some combo of: 1) the offense he played in, 2) his height, and 3) his attitude and, while early, Mayfield certainly looked like he deserved to be the #1 QB taken last season.
Murray put up nearly identical passing stats (plus ridiculously good rushing stats) in the same offense as Mayfield last year and doesn't have the attitude question-marks Mayfield did. So it really comes down to 2 things for him: 1) his height and 2) can he avoid being labeled as a "running QB"?
With respect to his height, is there any actual evidence that supports the prototypical QB height "guidelines"? It seems more and more QBs (Romo, Brees, Mayfield, Wilson, etc) are bucking this trend and excelling despite not being 6'4"+. Obviously, none are as short as Murray, but how short is too short? Another thing to keep in mind is the search for teams to find the next Aaron Donald who "fell" in part because he lacked prototypical DT size. Well, shorter DTs would seem to eliminate the need (in part) for taller QBs...
back from my week-long BBI suspension. Anyway, Kyler Murray entering the draft is only a good thing for the Giants. For one, it's possible (even if unlikely) that he gets picked before them which means one more player available in round 1 to choose from. And honestly, depending on how he measures & throws at the combine, I could be convinced he's the best QB in this draft class (though I'm a big fan of Haskins).
but its hard for me to see your side of things when the A's took a calculated gamble and lost. A contract was negotiated that still allowed Murray to walk, the A's agreed to that contract. They screwed themselves over by taking a player who may have chosen another sport. There were no unknowns, no one forced either side to agree to those terms but both did.
i'm not in love with the guys that are projected to go early in this draft nor do i care for the other QBs in this draft. i'd be more than willing to take a chance on him at 6.
I hate when any player signs a contract and wants out before honoring any or the entire of it.
He signed a contract to play for a team and didnt honor. Its 100% shitty.
Well no, there was language to protect themselves in case this happened, they clearly knew this was possible. While we don't know the exact terms we know enough to say that the A's absolutely knew the risks. I'm sure they would have loved it if he signed a deal that prevented going to another sport, but that didn't happened.
Old school or not Murray didn't break any rules. You are making it seem like he found some red tape that he took advantage of.
No what I mean is he signed a contract to play for a team. Sure, they protected themselves $$$ wise, but thats not where they are getting screwed at. They just lost a valuable draft pick which they cannot get back.
If Murray had doubts, the contract should never have been signed. Or Murray should have told teams he wouldnt fully commit to baseball until football was over. Hell, Murray could have withdrew his name from the draft... played football - and if wasnt going to be a picked - he could have played another year at OU and been drafted again.
sorry I dont see it the same as most. But he signed a contract to a team and the team got screwed over by it. There is no compensation for them. Yes, there were risks, but those risks should have ended once his signature dried.
If Oakland wanted to prevent that, they should have made it prohibitive in the contract or not drafted him. This is professional baseball team, they probably have a team of lawyers and this was a known risk. They screwed themselves
The whole reason there are contracts in place are to protect both party's rights. The player negotiates as much guaranteed money in case the NFL team cuts him and the NFL team usually has is on the hook for incentives if the player is doing well and outs if the player isn't.
Every contract specifies the outcomes if the team or the player ends their employment.
Stands to make more money and will be a lot more famous if hes a good starting QB compared to baseball. And hell be playing next season instead of riding a bus around god knows where.
The whole reason there are contracts in place are to protect both party's rights. The player negotiates as much guaranteed money in case the NFL team cuts him and the NFL team usually has is on the hook for incentives if the player is doing well and outs if the player isn't.
Every contract specifies the outcomes if the team or the player ends their employment.
And Kyler Murray and the As worked into his contract what would happen if he chose to play football and not baseball
With respect to his height, is there any actual evidence that supports the prototypical QB height "guidelines"? It seems more and more QBs (Romo, Brees, Mayfield, Wilson, etc) are bucking this trend and excelling despite not being 6'4"+. Obviously, none are as short as Murray, but how short is too short? Another thing to keep in mind is the search for teams to find the next Aaron Donald who "fell" in part because he lacked prototypical DT size. Well, shorter DTs would seem to eliminate the need (in part) for taller QBs...
I don't think there is any evidence - maybe Doug Futie? - because these are un-chartered waters with Murray. He's not going to break 5'10", and I'm not sure he's going to be any bigger than 5'9". And I question his arm length and overall body type to endure hits.
So it comes down to breaking all the molds and rolling the dice with a high investment on something this unusual.
I wouldn't want to make that call with any pick in the top 15-20. That's a big miss if he fails to deliver, and gets GMs fired.
The whole reason there are contracts in place are to protect both party's rights. The player negotiates as much guaranteed money in case the NFL team cuts him and the NFL team usually has is on the hook for incentives if the player is doing well and outs if the player isn't.
Every contract specifies the outcomes if the team or the player ends their employment.
And Kyler Murray and the As worked into his contract what would happen if he chose to play football and not baseball
It was part of his contract
I have a different take. Beane out-thought himself. Since he never established himself as a QB in college, he probably didnt worry about what would happen of worst case scenario happened. ANd it did.
I am still a believer that Murray should have never signed that contract to begin with. Its one thing to option, but it really put the A's in a bind. They cant even use that money to sign other players if they wanted.
I am not disagreeing that Murray did whats best for him. But signing that contract and not honoring it is pretty low. And of course thats just my opinion.
What are you guys talking about once you sign a contract
I don't see how Murray screwed anyone. Everyone knew the guy might play football. If he told them verbally that he would play baseball and they made a financial commitment in writing based on that, they are fools. They took a risk knowing the situation and it didn't pay off. That's on them.
Similarly, any NFL team drafting Murray also knows he has a lucrative fallback option should the NFL not work out right away. That is something any team drafting him will need to consider when investing a high draft pick in him.
But I would wager good money there was assurances he would play basbeall when he signed the contract.
That's simply not true; otherwise they wouldn't have put language in a contract to protect them if he didn't play baseball.
The A's knew exacxtly what they were getting into.
As someone above said - it was a good gamble, but they lost...
And I bet no team will ever lose on that gamble again.
I have no idea why you're so vehemently defending the A's right now. They chose to draft and sign him. They knew the risks and those risks were factored into the contract he signed. Murray still has free will and signing a contract doesn't automatically make someone a slave. The advantage the A's had in drafting and signing him was that if Murray decided to play baseball they had the rights to him over the other MLB teams. There was always a risk that he might play football and they took the risk. They will get back the money that was agreed they would get back in the contract if he decided to play football instead. There was no foul play of any sort here on either side (no pun intended). Regardless of what you personally think the word "contract" means or implies, Murray did nothing illegal in any way here.
The A's themselves measured the guy a shade under 5 10. Hard for them to predict the season he had, have NFL people tell them where they think he goes with practically zero gametape, and look at how many first round QB's have that been drafted at that height.
I'm intrigued. I want to see his measurable at the combine.
Im ready to fall in love with this kids nfl future. Fully aware my heart will likely be shattered into a million pieces, I dont care, Im ready. If the combine delivers Murray in a positive fashion Im sending him love notes in class with yes, maybe and no.
he could change a lot in this draft. Vick was 6' 215 lbs and went #1 in his draft. Murray could do the same if he comes in at 5'10 and 195 lbs. with his skill set and interview performance. Another exciting draft year after a shit season. Think we are are turning this ship around.
Name me one instance where a productive nfl player QUIT the game to go to baseball.
Take your time.
Name me some that had signed with a MLB team that were as heavily recruited as Murray was in both sports...
Bo Jackson and Deion Sanders come to mind. Jackson was drafted in the 2nd round out of HS, Sanders the 6th.
Exactly its a tiny sample size but both went on the play baseball at some point. Not necessarily quitting football but the players that signed in multiple sports ended up playing them.
That Dan Patrick interview did not make him sound like the sharpest tool in the shed. The only other interviews I could see where just some canned answer types that were edited.
That Dan Patrick interview did not make him sound like the sharpest tool in the shed. The only other interviews I could see where just some canned answer types that were edited.
Well yeah for good reason, he was probably told by his agent, etc. not to discuss certain things at that point and Patrick and others just would not drop it. He probably should have declined the interviews.
I've long been a died in the wool proponent of the old school NFL prototype pocket passer. Even guys like Wilson didn't sway me because imo he doesn't have a great arm. As a young man I watched Flutie play at BC and followed his career. He had the it factor with his athletic ability and arm strength but the league wasn't ready for him and didn't know how to use him propwerly. I thought that day may never arrive but it's here. Mahomes has that type of ability and moxie. Now Murray might, just might have it too.
If we go QB with a high 1st Round pick I'd still prefer Haskins as the guy with the better combination of celing and floor. Murray though has entered into the equation for me. There just might be two QB's worthy of our consideration.
Is there something in there that says he specifically WON'T play baseball?
I'm fully committed to football is a nice statement but it's a little non-specific, right? I'm sure when he's playing baseball he's fully committed to that too.
Anyway, whether or not he is fully committed or not, I wouldn't want anything to do with him. I believe he's going to bust in the NFL.
wth are you talking about? It's his life and he gets to decide what to do with it. If the A's didn't protect themselves in the contract then they were the fools.
wth are you talking about? It's his life and he gets to decide what to do with it. If the A's didn't protect themselves in the contract then they were the fools.
You'll have to forgive bw. He's from a different age where someone's word and honor meant something. That's what he meant by scot free. bw is, to put it mildly, a sap.
Is there something in there that says he specifically WON'T play baseball?
I'm fully committed to football is a nice statement but it's a little non-specific, right? I'm sure when he's playing baseball he's fully committed to that too.
Anyway, whether or not he is fully committed or not, I wouldn't want anything to do with him. I believe he's going to bust in the NFL.
He's going to be giving back the money. So if that happens and then he decides he wants to go back to baseball he'd have to crawl back and presumably take a lesser deal.
He's playing football, always has been IMO. He's going to go in the first round and play the sexiest position in sports for a lot more money than he'd be making this year on the A's.
wth are you talking about? It's his life and he gets to decide what to do with it. If the A's didn't protect themselves in the contract then they were the fools.
Exactly, Murray played the game like a savvy businessman. Probably at the advice of his agents on both sides. Pretend youre 100% invested in baseball and the Athletics, just in case the football thing doesnt work out or you change your mind.
There is no word for it contract in any business, let alone one with millions on the table...
wth are you talking about? It's his life and he gets to decide what to do with it. If the A's didn't protect themselves in the contract then they were the fools.
I don't disagree with any of that.
However, I can still take the position that Murray doesn't come out looking great and innocent - from my perspective.
wth are you talking about? It's his life and he gets to decide what to do with it. If the A's didn't protect themselves in the contract then they were the fools.
I don't disagree with any of that.
However, I can still take the position that Murray doesn't come out looking great and innocent - from my perspective.
I agree with this 100%.
IMO, theres 0% chance Oakland took him without getting some verbal guarantee.
If Tim Tebow can get a legit shot with the Mets post his failed NFL career, you better believe Murray will be able to go back and play baseball later if he wants to.
IMO, theres 0% chance Oakland took him without getting some verbal guarantee.
I don't believe Oakland took any kind of verbal guarantee. But if they did, then they are stupid.
But again - they clearly thought this could happen, otherwise they wouldn't have structured the contract they way they did.
Do you think the March 1st date for him to receive the rest of the signing bonus was a mistake? That date was clearly chosen because they would know by then if he would attend the combine.
You'll have to forgive bw. He's from a different age where someone's word and honor meant something. That's what he meant by scot free. bw is, to put it mildly, a sap.
we gamble for Murray as QB;
ultimately, it doesn't pan out;
we make Kylar a WR;
he ends up being Julian Edelman caliber.
No doubt Kylar is an athlete and can succeed anywhere on the field.
This is assuming he doesn't flip us off and plays baseball rather than switch positions.
Wait, you want to gamble on him in hopes he becomes a WR?!
No, I'm willing to gamble that he will be our QB of the future. But an Edelman type of career wouldn't be a bad consolation IF it doesn't work out at QB. Not that we need a slot receiver, but it wouldn't be a complete waste of a pick like Flowers or Apple. Again, I doubt Murray accepts any position other than QB.
Do you know how ridiculous you sound? Seriously? Murray has a decent chance of being a top 4 OVERALL pick, and you're busy wasting people's time with if he falls to the 4th round. Well...thanks for that.
Hey, if Nick Bosa falls to the 5th round, I'd take a shot on him. Quinnen Williams, too. Are we done with the nonsense yet?
Josina Anderson who is pretty plugged in just tweeted this.
Quote:
Tweet from @JosinaAnderson: So....now the first question mark in the NFL Draft starts at #2.
If that means Kyler to Arizona the Giants have to offer the 6th pick for Rosen.
Thats an interesting tidbit, Rick. The risks associated with Haskins makes me think that trade offer is the best route, although the Cardinals would need to throw in another pick to balance it out.
Josina Anderson who is pretty plugged in just tweeted this.
Quote:
Tweet from @JosinaAnderson: So....now the first question mark in the NFL Draft starts at #2.
If that means Kyler to Arizona the Giants have to offer the 6th pick for Rosen.
So pay more when we could take him last year, sounds like a great business model. No thanks. Offer our 2 and add on from there.
Last draft had a Saquon. This draft does not. If Josh Rosen is available for the 6th pick he's the best player available. Has a year in the NFL under his belt and he's still just 22. Only 3 months older then Haskins.
RE: RE: RE: Kyler hired the same agent as Kingsbury
Josina Anderson who is pretty plugged in just tweeted this.
Quote:
Tweet from @JosinaAnderson: So....now the first question mark in the NFL Draft starts at #2.
If that means Kyler to Arizona the Giants have to offer the 6th pick for Rosen.
So pay more when we could take him last year, sounds like a great business model. No thanks. Offer our 2 and add on from there.
Last draft had a Saquon. This draft does not. If Josh Rosen is available for the 6th pick he's the best player available. Has a year in the NFL under his belt and he's still just 22. Only 3 months older then Haskins.
This is correct. At least Rosen is on tape against NFL teams and survived a brutal year behind that line(durability issue resolved). While I agree with UConn on trying to get him for a 2nd round pick, I would take him for the 6th - he was who I wanted last year.
UConn you cannot say that because he was 10th last year means a 6th this year is over paying, there is no direct correlation. Rosen would easily be the top QB in the draft this year, which means he would be a top 5 pick this year if not #1.
its not just because we could have had him last year its because hes likes losing 2 seasons of being cost controlled as we arent cutting Eli. Its also because I dont believe hes as good as you guys think he is. I think hed go roughly in the exact same spot this year due to his issues (attitude and concussions) and would not be the #1 QB in 2019.
So yeah add in the fact that we passed on him last year to the above and its a no for me.
its not just because we could have had him last year its because hes likes losing 2 seasons of being cost controlled as we arent cutting Eli. Its also because I dont believe hes as good as you guys think he is. I think hed go roughly in the exact same spot this year due to his issues (attitude and concussions) and would not be the #1 QB in 2019.
So yeah add in the fact that we passed on him last year to the above and its a no for me.
To me, the only draft eligible QB I would take over Rosen is Trevor Lawrence. Too bad hes not available until 2021. Hes certainly better (significantly) than any of these guys in 2019 and Im confident hed be better than the projected guys many here, myself included, prefer DG choose from in 2020. If Rosen is available, DG must be willing to trade whatever it takes to get him, including the #6.
in the "don't judge a QB off a rookie year" camp, but let's be honest, Rosen had a terrible rookie year. He can recover, he might be a good QB in the future, but other than projection and speculation, he has never put up wow numbers. He had one decent year in college after two so-so years.
He was the 4th QB taken, even after Josh Allen who was and is a project, and some people believe he'd be the first taken this year? He wouldn't go before Haskins or Lock. And next year? He might not even go in the first round. Rosen isn't going to be a NY Giant. And the Giants would be crazy to hitch their wagon to Rosen when they are in good position to get Haskins or Lock if they wanted to go QB this year, or to trade down and acquire extra picks to go after a QB in next year's draft.
As for Murray, newsflash, he won't even be the 2nd QB taken this year. I have doubts he will go in the first round. Haskins, Lock, and perhaps Daniel Jones will all go before Murray.
Apparently Kyler Murray wrote a 100% commitment....
to Baseball letter if taken in the first round, too. Anybody seen this?
Quote:
Paul Crane
@PaulCrane7
Follow Follow @PaulCrane7
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Replying to @RossTuckerNFL @ProFootballTalk
Wrote a pre draft letter to MLB teams guaranteeing 100% commitment to baseball if taken in 1st R. As have now lost Top 10 pick theyll never get back
to Baseball letter if taken in the first round, too. Anybody seen this?
Quote:
Paul Crane
@PaulCrane7
Follow Follow @PaulCrane7
More
Replying to @RossTuckerNFL @ProFootballTalk
Wrote a pre draft letter to MLB teams guaranteeing 100% commitment to baseball if taken in 1st R. As have now lost Top 10 pick theyll never get back
Here's the thread from Ross Tucker: Link - ( New Window )
I believe that is a different situation. Of course he is going to write that when he didn't think he was going to be a first round pick. Now that both options are viable he is stating his preference for football.
I'm sorry, but that's BS when it costs a team a pick.
OK, so supposedly he told teams he was "100% committed".
Obviously the A's didn't fully believe that, otherwise they wouldn't have structured the contract to give them just about a full refund if(when) he bailed.
LOL
They don't really have to "do" much; there is language in the contract that if he doesn't come to baseball camp, the signing bonus is forfeited.
I'm sure they'd rather have the player than the money, of course...
Quote:
I'd do everything in their power to get as much money as possible. He really, really dicked them over.
They don't really have to "do" much; there is language in the contract that if he doesn't come to baseball camp, the signing bonus is forfeited.
I'm sure they'd rather have the player than the money, of course...
they should get his football contract too. I know it will never happen.
But EPIC screw job by Murray. You're going to see MLB teams tell players they wont be allowed to play another sport once the contract is signed.
Still prefer Haskins, but if we're going QB and it's not the Dwayne Train, I'd just take a shot on Murray.
Daniel Jones worries me... I could see him being a lot like Tannehill. Won't suck, also won't be good enough to take the team to the next level.
Not big on Lock, either - I see way more Cutler than Mahomes.
Forget Grier.
And please, no Tyree Jackson - we've taken enough developmental QB's. Take a guy you fully intend on hitching your wagon to right after Eli.
Jeff Passan
@JeffPassan
1m
Kyler Murray will return $1.29 million of the $1.5 million signing bonus money the Oakland As gave him last year. He forfeits the remaining $3.16 million due March 1. The As will put him on the restricted list and retain Murrays rights, but they dont get a comp draft pick.
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In comment 14293320 dep026 said:
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I'd do everything in their power to get as much money as possible. He really, really dicked them over.
They don't really have to "do" much; there is language in the contract that if he doesn't come to baseball camp, the signing bonus is forfeited.
I'm sure they'd rather have the player than the money, of course...
they should get his football contract too. I know it will never happen.
But EPIC screw job by Murray. You're going to see MLB teams tell players they wont be allowed to play another sport once the contract is signed.
It sucks for the A's, but it's not like they didn't know this could happen; they put language in the contract to protect themselves.
They probably figured that, though he could get more money overall with a football contract(s), he would be enticed by letting less overall money in baseball but not having his body beat up like it would be in football.
I'm a causal A's fan, so I'm bummed for them; they need reasons to get people in the seats, and he seemed just like what the doctor ordered
How? They knew the risks in drafting him.
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I'd do everything in their power to get as much money as possible. He really, really dicked them over.
How? They knew the risks in drafting him.
They probably figured since he is only 5 9 he had no shot at being an NFL 1st round pick. They gambled (which honestly was probably a good gamble) and lost.
What's he supposed to do, not do what's best for him? The A's would, why shouldn't he?
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I'd do everything in their power to get as much money as possible. He really, really dicked them over.
How? They knew the risks in drafting him.
No one knows the behind the door language. But I would wager good money there was assurances he would play basbeall when he signed the contract.
You watch now.... any contract signed will prevent players from playing another sport. If they dont agree to that, at least the team gets their pick back the following year.
Big deal.
If Football doesn't work out for him the A's will be more than happy to sign him then.
I agree with this. And I think his stock is going to rise substantially between now and the draft. I can see him going top 3.
And they shouldn't.
If Murray falls to the second round, which is where he belongs (or even later), then he's more interesting.
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In comment 14293320 dep026 said:
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I'd do everything in their power to get as much money as possible. He really, really dicked them over.
How? They knew the risks in drafting him.
No one knows the behind the door language. But I would wager good money there was assurances he would play basbeall when he signed the contract.
You watch now.... any contract signed will prevent players from playing another sport. If they dont agree to that, at least the team gets their pick back the following year.
So what? Isn't that their business then? I don't get why you think this was some massive screw job. Seems pretty cut and dried and if leagues are going to change up how they write contracts, that's on them. I also think this is fairly unprecedented as he's the only guy in the history of both leagues that has the opportunity to be drafted 1st round in each. That completely changes the money and isn't common at all.
This isn't something anyone should be mad at. A's knew the risks, sucks for them.
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interest at #6, and I don't think the Giants will have any either.
And they shouldn't.
If Murray falls to the second round, which is where he belongs (or even later), then he's more interesting.
There is no such thing as "where he belongs". If he goes to the combine and and looks better than Mayfield in workouts, he is going in the first and maybe in the top 5.
Non-Giants related but I think Belichick is on him sheerly off of curiosity and the professional challenge of shaping an offense around him.
He signed a contract to play for a team and didnt honor. Its 100% shitty.
There is no such thing as "where he belongs". If he goes to the combine and and looks better than Mayfield in workouts, he is going in the first and maybe in the top 5.
Sure there is. Now, it's certainly a subjective call, but scouts/front offices rank players all of the time by skills/metrics/upside/etc, and comp them to current and prior players.
and start figuring out what Kyler Murray is going to do to NFL defenses!"
He signed a contract to play for a team and didnt honor. Its 100% shitty.
Well no, there was language to protect themselves in case this happened, they clearly knew this was possible. While we don't know the exact terms we know enough to say that the A's absolutely knew the risks. I'm sure they would have loved it if he signed a deal that prevented going to another sport, but that didn't happened.
Old school or not Murray didn't break any rules. You are making it seem like he found some red tape that he took advantage of.
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I hate when any player signs a contract and wants out before honoring any or the entire of it.
He signed a contract to play for a team and didnt honor. Its 100% shitty.
Well no, there was language to protect themselves in case this happened, they clearly knew this was possible. While we don't know the exact terms we know enough to say that the A's absolutely knew the risks. I'm sure they would have loved it if he signed a deal that prevented going to another sport, but that didn't happened.
Old school or not Murray didn't break any rules. You are making it seem like he found some red tape that he took advantage of.
No what I mean is he signed a contract to play for a team. Sure, they protected themselves $$$ wise, but thats not where they are getting screwed at. They just lost a valuable draft pick which they cannot get back.
If Murray had doubts, the contract should never have been signed. Or Murray should have told teams he wouldnt fully commit to baseball until football was over. Hell, Murray could have withdrew his name from the draft... played football - and if wasnt going to be a picked - he could have played another year at OU and been drafted again.
sorry I dont see it the same as most. But he signed a contract to a team and the team got screwed over by it. There is no compensation for them. Yes, there were risks, but those risks should have ended once his signature dried.
But I would wager good money there was assurances he would play basbeall when he signed the contract.
That's simply not true; otherwise they wouldn't have put language in a contract to protect them if he didn't play baseball.
The A's knew exacxtly what they were getting into.
As someone above said - it was a good gamble, but they lost...
There is no such thing as "where he belongs". If he goes to the combine and and looks better than Mayfield in workouts, he is going in the first and maybe in the top 5.
I think he could get a "Mayfield-bump". All of the 'experts' last year had Mayfield as the 3rd/4th best QB prospect heading into the draft due to some combo of: 1) the offense he played in, 2) his height, and 3) his attitude and, while early, Mayfield certainly looked like he deserved to be the #1 QB taken last season.
Murray put up nearly identical passing stats (plus ridiculously good rushing stats) in the same offense as Mayfield last year and doesn't have the attitude question-marks Mayfield did. So it really comes down to 2 things for him: 1) his height and 2) can he avoid being labeled as a "running QB"?
With respect to his height, is there any actual evidence that supports the prototypical QB height "guidelines"? It seems more and more QBs (Romo, Brees, Mayfield, Wilson, etc) are bucking this trend and excelling despite not being 6'4"+. Obviously, none are as short as Murray, but how short is too short? Another thing to keep in mind is the search for teams to find the next Aaron Donald who "fell" in part because he lacked prototypical DT size. Well, shorter DTs would seem to eliminate the need (in part) for taller QBs...
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But I would wager good money there was assurances he would play basbeall when he signed the contract.
That's simply not true; otherwise they wouldn't have put language in a contract to protect them if he didn't play baseball.
The A's knew exacxtly what they were getting into.
As someone above said - it was a good gamble, but they lost...
And I bet no team will ever lose on that gamble again.
I wouldn't be surprised to see Gruden take him.
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In comment 14293377 dep026 said:
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I hate when any player signs a contract and wants out before honoring any or the entire of it.
He signed a contract to play for a team and didnt honor. Its 100% shitty.
Well no, there was language to protect themselves in case this happened, they clearly knew this was possible. While we don't know the exact terms we know enough to say that the A's absolutely knew the risks. I'm sure they would have loved it if he signed a deal that prevented going to another sport, but that didn't happened.
Old school or not Murray didn't break any rules. You are making it seem like he found some red tape that he took advantage of.
No what I mean is he signed a contract to play for a team. Sure, they protected themselves $$$ wise, but thats not where they are getting screwed at. They just lost a valuable draft pick which they cannot get back.
If Murray had doubts, the contract should never have been signed. Or Murray should have told teams he wouldnt fully commit to baseball until football was over. Hell, Murray could have withdrew his name from the draft... played football - and if wasnt going to be a picked - he could have played another year at OU and been drafted again.
sorry I dont see it the same as most. But he signed a contract to a team and the team got screwed over by it. There is no compensation for them. Yes, there were risks, but those risks should have ended once his signature dried.
If Oakland wanted to prevent that, they should have made it prohibitive in the contract or not drafted him. This is professional baseball team, they probably have a team of lawyers and this was a known risk. They screwed themselves
So the Giants or any NFL team shouldnt cut a player right? They must uphold the entire contract?
So the Giants or any NFL team shouldnt cut a player right? They must uphold the entire contract?
I do believe teams should honor them as well.
Intriguing prospect no doubt, but pass. Giants cant afford to miss
The whole reason there are contracts in place are to protect both party's rights. The player negotiates as much guaranteed money in case the NFL team cuts him and the NFL team usually has is on the hook for incentives if the player is doing well and outs if the player isn't.
Every contract specifies the outcomes if the team or the player ends their employment.
The whole reason there are contracts in place are to protect both party's rights. The player negotiates as much guaranteed money in case the NFL team cuts him and the NFL team usually has is on the hook for incentives if the player is doing well and outs if the player isn't.
Every contract specifies the outcomes if the team or the player ends their employment.
And Kyler Murray and the As worked into his contract what would happen if he chose to play football and not baseball
It was part of his contract
With respect to his height, is there any actual evidence that supports the prototypical QB height "guidelines"? It seems more and more QBs (Romo, Brees, Mayfield, Wilson, etc) are bucking this trend and excelling despite not being 6'4"+. Obviously, none are as short as Murray, but how short is too short? Another thing to keep in mind is the search for teams to find the next Aaron Donald who "fell" in part because he lacked prototypical DT size. Well, shorter DTs would seem to eliminate the need (in part) for taller QBs...
I don't think there is any evidence - maybe Doug Futie? - because these are un-chartered waters with Murray. He's not going to break 5'10", and I'm not sure he's going to be any bigger than 5'9". And I question his arm length and overall body type to endure hits.
So it comes down to breaking all the molds and rolling the dice with a high investment on something this unusual.
I wouldn't want to make that call with any pick in the top 15-20. That's a big miss if he fails to deliver, and gets GMs fired.
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honor contracts.
The whole reason there are contracts in place are to protect both party's rights. The player negotiates as much guaranteed money in case the NFL team cuts him and the NFL team usually has is on the hook for incentives if the player is doing well and outs if the player isn't.
Every contract specifies the outcomes if the team or the player ends their employment.
And Kyler Murray and the As worked into his contract what would happen if he chose to play football and not baseball
It was part of his contract
I have a different take. Beane out-thought himself. Since he never established himself as a QB in college, he probably didnt worry about what would happen of worst case scenario happened. ANd it did.
I am still a believer that Murray should have never signed that contract to begin with. Its one thing to option, but it really put the A's in a bind. They cant even use that money to sign other players if they wanted.
I am not disagreeing that Murray did whats best for him. But signing that contract and not honoring it is pretty low. And of course thats just my opinion.
Similarly, any NFL team drafting Murray also knows he has a lucrative fallback option should the NFL not work out right away. That is something any team drafting him will need to consider when investing a high draft pick in him.
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In comment 14293359 dep026 said:
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But I would wager good money there was assurances he would play basbeall when he signed the contract.
That's simply not true; otherwise they wouldn't have put language in a contract to protect them if he didn't play baseball.
The A's knew exacxtly what they were getting into.
As someone above said - it was a good gamble, but they lost...
And I bet no team will ever lose on that gamble again.
I have no idea why you're so vehemently defending the A's right now. They chose to draft and sign him. They knew the risks and those risks were factored into the contract he signed. Murray still has free will and signing a contract doesn't automatically make someone a slave. The advantage the A's had in drafting and signing him was that if Murray decided to play baseball they had the rights to him over the other MLB teams. There was always a risk that he might play football and they took the risk. They will get back the money that was agreed they would get back in the contract if he decided to play football instead. There was no foul play of any sort here on either side (no pun intended). Regardless of what you personally think the word "contract" means or implies, Murray did nothing illegal in any way here.
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Do you hold teams accountable for the same contract?
So the Giants or any NFL team shouldnt cut a player right? They must uphold the entire contract?
I do believe teams should honor them as well.
So the Giants should keep Stewart and Barwin? they had 2 year deals
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In comment 14293420 twostepgiants said:
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Do you hold teams accountable for the same contract?
So the Giants or any NFL team shouldnt cut a player right? They must uphold the entire contract?
I do believe teams should honor them as well.
So the Giants should keep Stewart and Barwin? they had 2 year deals
Yes, they should. They shouldnt have been signed to begin with.
And I bet no team will ever lose on that gamble again.
I would absolutely bet that another team will take a similar gamble. Maybe not with a pick as high as 9, time will tell.
Take your time.
Im ready to fall in love with this kids nfl future. Fully aware my heart will likely be shattered into a million pieces, I dont care, Im ready. If the combine delivers Murray in a positive fashion Im sending him love notes in class with yes, maybe and no.
Take your time.
Name me some that had signed with a MLB team that were as heavily recruited as Murray was in both sports...
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Name me one instance where a productive nfl player QUIT the game to go to baseball.
Take your time.
Name me some that had signed with a MLB team that were as heavily recruited as Murray was in both sports...
Bo Jackson and Deion Sanders come to mind. Jackson was drafted in the 2nd round out of HS, Sanders the 6th.
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In comment 14293320 dep026 said:
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I'd do everything in their power to get as much money as possible. He really, really dicked them over.
They don't really have to "do" much; there is language in the contract that if he doesn't come to baseball camp, the signing bonus is forfeited.
I'm sure they'd rather have the player than the money, of course...
they should get his football contract too. I know it will never happen.
But EPIC screw job by Murray. You're going to see MLB teams tell players they wont be allowed to play another sport once the contract is signed.
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In comment 14293501 djm said:
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Name me one instance where a productive nfl player QUIT the game to go to baseball.
Take your time.
Name me some that had signed with a MLB team that were as heavily recruited as Murray was in both sports...
Bo Jackson and Deion Sanders come to mind. Jackson was drafted in the 2nd round out of HS, Sanders the 6th.
Dave Winfield was drafted in three sports: MLB, NBA (and ABA), and NFL.
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In comment 14293501 djm said:
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Name me one instance where a productive nfl player QUIT the game to go to baseball.
Take your time.
Name me some that had signed with a MLB team that were as heavily recruited as Murray was in both sports...
Bo Jackson and Deion Sanders come to mind. Jackson was drafted in the 2nd round out of HS, Sanders the 6th.
Exactly its a tiny sample size but both went on the play baseball at some point. Not necessarily quitting football but the players that signed in multiple sports ended up playing them.
Well yeah for good reason, he was probably told by his agent, etc. not to discuss certain things at that point and Patrick and others just would not drop it. He probably should have declined the interviews.
ultimately, it doesn't pan out;
we make Kylar a WR;
he ends up being Julian Edelman caliber.
No doubt Kylar is an athlete and can succeed anywhere on the field.
This is assuming he doesn't flip us off and plays baseball rather than switch positions.
ultimately, it doesn't pan out;
we make Kylar a WR;
he ends up being Julian Edelman caliber.
No doubt Kylar is an athlete and can succeed anywhere on the field.
This is assuming he doesn't flip us off and plays baseball rather than switch positions.
Wait, you want to gamble on him in hopes he becomes a WR?!
If we go QB with a high 1st Round pick I'd still prefer Haskins as the guy with the better combination of celing and floor. Murray though has entered into the equation for me. There just might be two QB's worthy of our consideration.
I'm fully committed to football is a nice statement but it's a little non-specific, right? I'm sure when he's playing baseball he's fully committed to that too.
Anyway, whether or not he is fully committed or not, I wouldn't want anything to do with him. I believe he's going to bust in the NFL.
But EPIC screw job by Murray. You're going to see MLB teams tell players they wont be allowed to play another sport once the contract is signed.
How is it a screw job? Players have been drafted in multiple sports for decades.
People can change their minds. Happens all the time.
But from everything I have read and heard, Murray and Boras gave Bean their word that Murray was all in on baseball.
And the A's were more than generous letting him play football, btw.
But once Murray started going on a tear, getting all the attention, then the Heisman, then everything got turned upside down.
So let's not let Murray off scot-free...
You'll have to forgive bw. He's from a different age where someone's word and honor meant something. That's what he meant by scot free. bw is, to put it mildly, a sap.
I'm fully committed to football is a nice statement but it's a little non-specific, right? I'm sure when he's playing baseball he's fully committed to that too.
Anyway, whether or not he is fully committed or not, I wouldn't want anything to do with him. I believe he's going to bust in the NFL.
He's going to be giving back the money. So if that happens and then he decides he wants to go back to baseball he'd have to crawl back and presumably take a lesser deal.
He's playing football, always has been IMO. He's going to go in the first round and play the sexiest position in sports for a lot more money than he'd be making this year on the A's.
Exactly, Murray played the game like a savvy businessman. Probably at the advice of his agents on both sides. Pretend youre 100% invested in baseball and the Athletics, just in case the football thing doesnt work out or you change your mind.
There is no word for it contract in any business, let alone one with millions on the table...
I don't disagree with any of that.
However, I can still take the position that Murray doesn't come out looking great and innocent - from my perspective.
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wth are you talking about? It's his life and he gets to decide what to do with it. If the A's didn't protect themselves in the contract then they were the fools.
I don't disagree with any of that.
However, I can still take the position that Murray doesn't come out looking great and innocent - from my perspective.
I agree with this 100%.
IMO, theres 0% chance Oakland took him without getting some verbal guarantee.
If Tim Tebow can get a legit shot with the Mets post his failed NFL career, you better believe Murray will be able to go back and play baseball later if he wants to.
IMO, theres 0% chance Oakland took him without getting some verbal guarantee.
I don't believe Oakland took any kind of verbal guarantee. But if they did, then they are stupid.
But again - they clearly thought this could happen, otherwise they wouldn't have structured the contract they way they did.
Do you think the March 1st date for him to receive the rest of the signing bonus was a mistake? That date was clearly chosen because they would know by then if he would attend the combine.
You'll have to forgive bw. He's from a different age where someone's word and honor meant something. That's what he meant by scot free. bw is, to put it mildly, a sap.
Why put it mildly? ;)
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we gamble for Murray as QB;
ultimately, it doesn't pan out;
we make Kylar a WR;
he ends up being Julian Edelman caliber.
No doubt Kylar is an athlete and can succeed anywhere on the field.
This is assuming he doesn't flip us off and plays baseball rather than switch positions.
Wait, you want to gamble on him in hopes he becomes a WR?!
No, I'm willing to gamble that he will be our QB of the future. But an Edelman type of career wouldn't be a bad consolation IF it doesn't work out at QB. Not that we need a slot receiver, but it wouldn't be a complete waste of a pick like Flowers or Apple. Again, I doubt Murray accepts any position other than QB.
Take your time.
Brian Jordan
If that means Kyler to Arizona the Giants have to offer the 6th pick for Rosen.
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Tweet from @JosinaAnderson: So....now the first question mark in the NFL Draft starts at #2.
If that means Kyler to Arizona the Giants have to offer the 6th pick for Rosen.
No, they dont. And they wont.
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Name me one instance where a productive nfl player QUIT the game to go to baseball.
Take your time.
Brian Jordan
We have a winner!
You kinda ruined my point?
Ok other than Brian Jordan who doesnt count because I forgot about him.... anyone else?
Doesnt matter giants may think hes too small. Poopy to that.
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Tweet from @JosinaAnderson: So....now the first question mark in the NFL Draft starts at #2.
If that means Kyler to Arizona the Giants have to offer the 6th pick for Rosen.
So pay more when we could take him last year, sounds like a great business model. No thanks. Offer our 2 and add on from there.
Do you know how ridiculous you sound? Seriously? Murray has a decent chance of being a top 4 OVERALL pick, and you're busy wasting people's time with if he falls to the 4th round. Well...thanks for that.
Hey, if Nick Bosa falls to the 5th round, I'd take a shot on him. Quinnen Williams, too. Are we done with the nonsense yet?
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Tweet from @JosinaAnderson: So....now the first question mark in the NFL Draft starts at #2.
If that means Kyler to Arizona the Giants have to offer the 6th pick for Rosen.
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Josina Anderson who is pretty plugged in just tweeted this.
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Tweet from @JosinaAnderson: So....now the first question mark in the NFL Draft starts at #2.
If that means Kyler to Arizona the Giants have to offer the 6th pick for Rosen.
So pay more when we could take him last year, sounds like a great business model. No thanks. Offer our 2 and add on from there.
Last draft had a Saquon. This draft does not. If Josh Rosen is available for the 6th pick he's the best player available. Has a year in the NFL under his belt and he's still just 22. Only 3 months older then Haskins.
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In comment 14293970 Big Rick in FL said:
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Josina Anderson who is pretty plugged in just tweeted this.
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Tweet from @JosinaAnderson: So....now the first question mark in the NFL Draft starts at #2.
If that means Kyler to Arizona the Giants have to offer the 6th pick for Rosen.
So pay more when we could take him last year, sounds like a great business model. No thanks. Offer our 2 and add on from there.
Last draft had a Saquon. This draft does not. If Josh Rosen is available for the 6th pick he's the best player available. Has a year in the NFL under his belt and he's still just 22. Only 3 months older then Haskins.
This is correct. At least Rosen is on tape against NFL teams and survived a brutal year behind that line(durability issue resolved). While I agree with UConn on trying to get him for a 2nd round pick, I would take him for the 6th - he was who I wanted last year.
UConn you cannot say that because he was 10th last year means a 6th this year is over paying, there is no direct correlation. Rosen would easily be the top QB in the draft this year, which means he would be a top 5 pick this year if not #1.
So yeah add in the fact that we passed on him last year to the above and its a no for me.
So yeah add in the fact that we passed on him last year to the above and its a no for me.
To me, the only draft eligible QB I would take over Rosen is Trevor Lawrence. Too bad hes not available until 2021. Hes certainly better (significantly) than any of these guys in 2019 and Im confident hed be better than the projected guys many here, myself included, prefer DG choose from in 2020. If Rosen is available, DG must be willing to trade whatever it takes to get him, including the #6.
There's a special level of dumb on bbi. Derp Ari don't want rosen, likely because of his douchy suckiness.
She's rarely on the mark and a joke.
He was the 4th QB taken, even after Josh Allen who was and is a project, and some people believe he'd be the first taken this year? He wouldn't go before Haskins or Lock. And next year? He might not even go in the first round. Rosen isn't going to be a NY Giant. And the Giants would be crazy to hitch their wagon to Rosen when they are in good position to get Haskins or Lock if they wanted to go QB this year, or to trade down and acquire extra picks to go after a QB in next year's draft.
As for Murray, newsflash, he won't even be the 2nd QB taken this year. I have doubts he will go in the first round. Haskins, Lock, and perhaps Daniel Jones will all go before Murray.
@PaulCrane7
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Replying to @RossTuckerNFL @ProFootballTalk
Wrote a pre draft letter to MLB teams guaranteeing 100% commitment to baseball if taken in 1st R. As have now lost Top 10 pick theyll never get back
Here's the thread from Ross Tucker:
Link - ( New Window )
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Paul Crane
@PaulCrane7
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Replying to @RossTuckerNFL @ProFootballTalk
Wrote a pre draft letter to MLB teams guaranteeing 100% commitment to baseball if taken in 1st R. As have now lost Top 10 pick theyll never get back
Here's the thread from Ross Tucker: Link - ( New Window )
I believe that is a different situation. Of course he is going to write that when he didn't think he was going to be a first round pick. Now that both options are viable he is stating his preference for football.
Link - ( New Window )
OK, so supposedly he told teams he was "100% committed".
Obviously the A's didn't fully believe that, otherwise they wouldn't have structured the contract to give them just about a full refund if(when) he bailed.